Another problem?

[Gordon]

I don't think this is a Windows 8 related problem, but maybe someone
here can shed a little light on it. My new HP Pavilion with Windows 8
preinstalled is set up with a Logitech cordless mouse and a Microsoft
Ergonomic wired keyboard. If I get the cordless mouse too close to the
right hand end of my keyboard the mouse gets erratic. The screen's
mouse pointer will stall out a bit then jump to a new location. If I
move the mouse a few inches away from the keyboard it returns to a
fully normal function. Is this a mouse flaw, a Windows 8 compatibility
problem or just a quirk?

I like to place the mouse close enough to the right hand end of the
keyboard to let me use my thumb to click the Enter key then resume
using that same thumb to roll the mouse ball. But, I have to keep the
mouse at least 3 inches away from the keyboard. My thumb isn't long
enough to work well across this distance. ;-) Gordon

[BillW50]

On 12/24/2012 2:33 PM, Gordon wrote:
> I don't think this is a Windows 8 related problem, but maybe someone
> here can shed a little light on it. My new HP Pavilion with Windows 8
> preinstalled is set up with a Logitech cordless mouse and a Microsoft
> Ergonomic wired keyboard. If I get the cordless mouse too close to the
> right hand end of my keyboard the mouse gets erratic. The screen's
> mouse pointer will stall out a bit then jump to a new location. If I
> move the mouse a few inches away from the keyboard it returns to a
> fully normal function. Is this a mouse flaw, a Windows 8 compatibility
> problem or just a quirk?
>
> I like to place the mouse close enough to the right hand end of the
> keyboard to let me use my thumb to click the Enter key then resume
> using that same thumb to roll the mouse ball. But, I have to keep the
> mouse at least 3 inches away from the keyboard. My thumb isn't long
> enough to work well across this distance. ;-) Gordon

Anything wireless might have a problem with external radio frequencies.
Computers, wireless and cell phones), microwaves, etc. can cause
problems. But wired keyboards I wouldn't think would put out much of
anything to have a problem. Move the keyboard away and then check that
spot with the mouse and see if it still acts the same. I would think it
would.

No, I don't think it has anything to do with Windows 8. Logitech usually
has the SetPoint software (listed in the control panel, if a mouse under
Mouse and the SetPoint tab). There it tells you if the battery is good
or not. If it isn't, they get really flaky.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Thunderbird v12
Centrino Core2 Duo T7400 2.16 GHz - 4GB - Windows 7 SP1

[Gordon]

On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 14:46:04 -0600, BillW50 > wrote:

>On 12/24/2012 2:33 PM, Gordon wrote:
>> I don't think this is a Windows 8 related problem, but maybe someone
>> here can shed a little light on it. My new HP Pavilion with Windows 8
>> preinstalled is set up with a Logitech cordless mouse and a Microsoft
>> Ergonomic wired keyboard. If I get the cordless mouse too close to the
>> right hand end of my keyboard the mouse gets erratic. The screen's
>> mouse pointer will stall out a bit then jump to a new location. If I
>> move the mouse a few inches away from the keyboard it returns to a
>> fully normal function. Is this a mouse flaw, a Windows 8 compatibility
>> problem or just a quirk?
>>
>> I like to place the mouse close enough to the right hand end of the
>> keyboard to let me use my thumb to click the Enter key then resume
>> using that same thumb to roll the mouse ball. But, I have to keep the
>> mouse at least 3 inches away from the keyboard. My thumb isn't long
>> enough to work well across this distance. ;-) Gordon
>
>Anything wireless might have a problem with external radio frequencies.
>Computers, wireless and cell phones), microwaves, etc. can cause
>problems. But wired keyboards I wouldn't think would put out much of
>anything to have a problem. Move the keyboard away and then check that
>spot with the mouse and see if it still acts the same. I would think it
>would.
>
>No, I don't think it has anything to do with Windows 8. Logitech usually
>has the SetPoint software (listed in the control panel, if a mouse under
>Mouse and the SetPoint tab). There it tells you if the battery is good
>or not. If it isn't, they get really flaky.
>
Thanks, Bill. I moved the keyboard as you suggested but the mouse
problem didn't show up until I moved the mouse close to the keyboard
again. It may be a low battery problem but I can't find the battery
check setup that you mentioned above. This Logitech mouse didn't come
with an installation CD. The very minimal instructions printed on
paper simply said to plug the wireless receiver into a USB port then
turn the mouse on and it would auto-install. I'll take the battery out
later and see if it tests low or if replacing it solves the problem.
It's an ordinary AA cell and I have several on hand.

This does bring up another question. If I install a wireless keyboard
will it interact with the mouse and cause some similar problems?
Gordon

[Paul in Houston TX]

Gordon wrote:
> I don't think this is a Windows 8 related problem, but maybe someone
> here can shed a little light on it. My new HP Pavilion with Windows 8
> preinstalled is set up with a Logitech cordless mouse and a Microsoft
> Ergonomic wired keyboard. If I get the cordless mouse too close to the
> right hand end of my keyboard the mouse gets erratic. The screen's
> mouse pointer will stall out a bit then jump to a new location. If I
> move the mouse a few inches away from the keyboard it returns to a
> fully normal function. Is this a mouse flaw, a Windows 8 compatibility
> problem or just a quirk?
>
> I like to place the mouse close enough to the right hand end of the
> keyboard to let me use my thumb to click the Enter key then resume
> using that same thumb to roll the mouse ball. But, I have to keep the
> mouse at least 3 inches away from the keyboard. My thumb isn't long
> enough to work well across this distance. ;-) Gordon

Sounds like either or both:
1) the keyboard is poorly made and noisy (excessive rfi)
2) the mouse is poorly made and picking up keyboard harmonics
You could:
Get a better mouse
Get a better keyboard
Wrap as much of the keyboard in aluminum foil as possible

[BillW50]

On 12/24/2012 3:33 PM, Gordon wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 14:46:04 -0600, > wrote:
>
>> On 12/24/2012 2:33 PM, Gordon wrote:
>>> I don't think this is a Windows 8 related problem, but maybe someone
>>> here can shed a little light on it. My new HP Pavilion with Windows 8
>>> preinstalled is set up with a Logitech cordless mouse and a Microsoft
>>> Ergonomic wired keyboard. If I get the cordless mouse too close to the
>>> right hand end of my keyboard the mouse gets erratic. The screen's
>>> mouse pointer will stall out a bit then jump to a new location. If I
>>> move the mouse a few inches away from the keyboard it returns to a
>>> fully normal function. Is this a mouse flaw, a Windows 8 compatibility
>>> problem or just a quirk?
>>>
>>> I like to place the mouse close enough to the right hand end of the
>>> keyboard to let me use my thumb to click the Enter key then resume
>>> using that same thumb to roll the mouse ball. But, I have to keep the
>>> mouse at least 3 inches away from the keyboard. My thumb isn't long
>>> enough to work well across this distance. ;-) Gordon
>>
>> Anything wireless might have a problem with external radio frequencies.
>> Computers, wireless and cell phones), microwaves, etc. can cause
>> problems. But wired keyboards I wouldn't think would put out much of
>> anything to have a problem. Move the keyboard away and then check that
>> spot with the mouse and see if it still acts the same. I would think it
>> would.
>>
>> No, I don't think it has anything to do with Windows 8. Logitech usually
>> has the SetPoint software (listed in the control panel, if a mouse under
>> Mouse and the SetPoint tab). There it tells you if the battery is good
>> or not. If it isn't, they get really flaky.
>>
> Thanks, Bill. I moved the keyboard as you suggested but the mouse
> problem didn't show up until I moved the mouse close to the keyboard
> again. It may be a low battery problem but I can't find the battery
> check setup that you mentioned above. This Logitech mouse didn't come
> with an installation CD. The very minimal instructions printed on
> paper simply said to plug the wireless receiver into a USB port then
> turn the mouse on and it would auto-install. I'll take the battery out
> later and see if it tests low or if replacing it solves the problem.
> It's an ordinary AA cell and I have several on hand.
>
> This does bring up another question. If I install a wireless keyboard
> will it interact with the mouse and cause some similar problems?
> Gordon

Wow! That looks like the keyboard and the mouse doesn't like each other.
The keyboard must be leaking enough radiation (radio frequency) to mask
the mouse signal. I would think something with Microsoft's name on it
would provide better shielding.

Adding another wireless keyboard? Normally no, that shouldn't be a
problem. But normally a wired keyboard and a wireless mouse should get
along just fine too, but yours doesn't. I use a Logitech mouse and a
Visento HTPC keyboard. Both wireless and get along just fine. Most
things should.

You may or not have Logitech SetPoint software installed. It may not be
a big deal if you don't. Usually it is most useful for extra buttons. If
yours operates normally without it, then it probably is ok. Although if
your Logitech has a tiny power switch on the bottom, turn it off and
then a bit later turn it on. If you have a green LED, the battery is
good. If it has a red LED, the battery is weak or worse. No light at
all, well then you might not have a light.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Thunderbird v12
Centrino Core2 Duo T7400 2.16 GHz - 4GB - Windows 7 SP1

[Rob]

On 25/12/2012 8:41 AM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
> Gordon wrote:
>> I don't think this is a Windows 8 related problem, but maybe someone
>> here can shed a little light on it. My new HP Pavilion with Windows 8
>> preinstalled is set up with a Logitech cordless mouse and a Microsoft
>> Ergonomic wired keyboard. If I get the cordless mouse too close to the
>> right hand end of my keyboard the mouse gets erratic. The screen's
>> mouse pointer will stall out a bit then jump to a new location. If I
>> move the mouse a few inches away from the keyboard it returns to a
>> fully normal function. Is this a mouse flaw, a Windows 8 compatibility
>> problem or just a quirk?
>> I like to place the mouse close enough to the right hand end of the
>> keyboard to let me use my thumb to click the Enter key then resume
>> using that same thumb to roll the mouse ball. But, I have to keep the
>> mouse at least 3 inches away from the keyboard. My thumb isn't long
>> enough to work well across this distance. ;-) Gordon
>
> Sounds like either or both:
> 1) the keyboard is poorly made and noisy (excessive rfi)
> 2) the mouse is poorly made and picking up keyboard harmonics
> You could:
> Get a better mouse
> Get a better keyboard
> Wrap as much of the keyboard in aluminum foil as possible

And remember the foil hat.

[Paul]

Gordon wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 14:46:04 -0600, BillW50 > wrote:
>
>> On 12/24/2012 2:33 PM, Gordon wrote:
>>> I don't think this is a Windows 8 related problem, but maybe someone
>>> here can shed a little light on it. My new HP Pavilion with Windows 8
>>> preinstalled is set up with a Logitech cordless mouse and a Microsoft
>>> Ergonomic wired keyboard. If I get the cordless mouse too close to the
>>> right hand end of my keyboard the mouse gets erratic. The screen's
>>> mouse pointer will stall out a bit then jump to a new location. If I
>>> move the mouse a few inches away from the keyboard it returns to a
>>> fully normal function. Is this a mouse flaw, a Windows 8 compatibility
>>> problem or just a quirk?
>>>
>>> I like to place the mouse close enough to the right hand end of the
>>> keyboard to let me use my thumb to click the Enter key then resume
>>> using that same thumb to roll the mouse ball. But, I have to keep the
>>> mouse at least 3 inches away from the keyboard. My thumb isn't long
>>> enough to work well across this distance. ;-) Gordon
>> Anything wireless might have a problem with external radio frequencies.
>> Computers, wireless and cell phones), microwaves, etc. can cause
>> problems. But wired keyboards I wouldn't think would put out much of
>> anything to have a problem. Move the keyboard away and then check that
>> spot with the mouse and see if it still acts the same. I would think it
>> would.
>>
>> No, I don't think it has anything to do with Windows 8. Logitech usually
>> has the SetPoint software (listed in the control panel, if a mouse under
>> Mouse and the SetPoint tab). There it tells you if the battery is good
>> or not. If it isn't, they get really flaky.
>>
> Thanks, Bill. I moved the keyboard as you suggested but the mouse
> problem didn't show up until I moved the mouse close to the keyboard
> again. It may be a low battery problem but I can't find the battery
> check setup that you mentioned above. This Logitech mouse didn't come
> with an installation CD. The very minimal instructions printed on
> paper simply said to plug the wireless receiver into a USB port then
> turn the mouse on and it would auto-install. I'll take the battery out
> later and see if it tests low or if replacing it solves the problem.
> It's an ordinary AA cell and I have several on hand.
>
> This does bring up another question. If I install a wireless keyboard
> will it interact with the mouse and cause some similar problems?
> Gordon

Well, as a user, you're not supposed to have to worry about these things.

But seeing as it won't get fixed, unless you learn some stuff first...

1) The devices can use different frequencies. There might be more than
one band, where unlicensed RF devices can broadcast at low power levels.
2) The devices have various modulation patterns and methods. Different
coding methods. Well designed standards for these things, take into
account the potential presence of the other standards. Only "hacked"
implementations, ones that only care about themselves, might fall victim
to proximity problems.
3) Your living area is a complete environment. The microwave oven might
leak a radio signal, knocking out your other wireless goods. Or that
cordless phone and base station you use with your landline, every time
that phone rings, the radio signal knocks out the rest of the Wifi.
These are non-computer interference sources, interacting with
the computer stuff. It's up to you to "survey" your house, identify
all of the leaky, non-compliant crap, and decide which of it to keep.
For the microwave, fix the door, or buy another one that doesn't
leak around the door seal.

The wireless keyboards and mice, probably use fewer standards now than
they have in the past. In some cases, the gadget that plugs into the
computer (stubby USB thing), works with the whole product line the
company makes. In which case, you'd expect fewer interactions
they hadn't thought of.

I'm not aware of a single web page, that documents all the RF methods
used by this stuff. Some of it is bog-standard Bluetooth, with perhaps
simplified pairing schemes built in. Bluetooth and Wifi are supposed
to be able to coexist, so your wireless router and Bluetooth are
supposed to be usable in the same room. Bluetooth uses spread spectrum
and frequency hopping, which are techniques that work in a noisy
environment. If a channel is obstructed, a hop to another can fix it.

In terms of the device design, two concepts go hand in hand.
They are "EMI" and "suspectibility". If you shield a device, it
leaks less EMI (unwanted radio signals). If you shield a device,
it is also less likely to pick up harmful radio signals from adjacent
devices. For ordinary electronics, you can do lots of shielding, for a
relatively low price. But for things that have their own antenna,
there must be an aperture in the casing, to allow the radio signals
to leave. And whatever path that is, it may allow signals to come
back into the device. Perhaps an external antenna, and a shielded chassis
would work, but a lot of mobile devices are too cheaply made to use
a connector and external antenna. And who'd want a mouse with a
"huge tail" sticking out of it ? The mouse is pretty well stuck with
having an antenna inside the plastic casing. And having a more open
construction.

Changing batteries, may change either the transmit or receive
characteristics of one of the items enough, to make it work
again. But if this is a design defect, you might never get them
to play nice next to one another.

If the technology is not Bluetooth, sometimes the device has
a switch on the bottom, to change channels.

Something you could try, would be to arrange the radio part of the keyboard
and mouse, and the USB dongles that pick up those signals, to have a
larger separation. Perhaps it would take a USB extension cord, to
move the receiver for one of the items, to the other side of
your desktop setup.
extension cable
+--- USB---- Desktop_computer ----USB----------------- dongle#1
| /
Dongle #2 ____/
\___ /
\ (Radio) Keyboard Mouse (Radio)

(You)

Any other solution I can think of, it would probably be cheaper
to just buy another mouse or keyboard.

HTH,
Paul

[SC Tom[_3_]]

"BillW50" > wrote in message
...
<SNIP>
>
> Wow! That looks like the keyboard and the mouse doesn't like each other.
> The keyboard must be leaking enough radiation (radio frequency) to mask
> the mouse signal. I would think something with Microsoft's name on it
> would provide better shielding.

But it's not a Windows 8 problem, so which part of "HP" and "Logitech" has
Microsoft's name on it?

( Just messin' with ya ;-) )

Merry Chriswanzukkah!!!

[SC Tom[_3_]]

"SC Tom" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> "BillW50" > wrote in message
> ...
> <SNIP>
>>
>> Wow! That looks like the keyboard and the mouse doesn't like each other.
>> The keyboard must be leaking enough radiation (radio frequency) to mask
>> the mouse signal. I would think something with Microsoft's name on it
>> would provide better shielding.
>
> But it's not a Windows 8 problem, so which part of "HP" and "Logitech" has
> Microsoft's name on it?
>
> ( Just messin' with ya ;-) )
>
> Merry Chriswanzukkah!!!
>
>

Whoops, I missed the "Microsoft comfort keyboard" :-( <insert Dumbass award
here>
(And that should be "Chriskwanzukkah". You'd think I was hitting the eggnog
already today.)

Have a great holiday :-)

[Gordon]

On Tue, 25 Dec 2012 08:16:57 -0500, "SC Tom" > wrote:

>
>
>"BillW50" > wrote in message
...
><SNIP>
>>
>> Wow! That looks like the keyboard and the mouse doesn't like each other.
>> The keyboard must be leaking enough radiation (radio frequency) to mask
>> the mouse signal. I would think something with Microsoft's name on it
>> would provide better shielding.
>
>But it's not a Windows 8 problem, so which part of "HP" and "Logitech" has
>Microsoft's name on it?
>
The mouse problem comes and goes, and I'm beginning to think it is
being caused by something other than the keyboard. Any time it
happens, just moving the mouse a few inches clears the problem,
temporarily. It may bounce back in 10 minutes, or it may not show up
again for several hours. Also, it seems to happen most often when I'm
using Internet Explorer. Strange????

My wife suggested that I shouldn't pick my nose then use the mouse
without washing my hands. She thinks my boogies may be causing the
mouse to gum up, or some such. ;-) Gordon

[Rob]

On 26/12/2012 12:34 AM, SC Tom wrote:
>
>
> "SC Tom" > wrote in message ...
>>
>>
>> "BillW50" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> <SNIP>
>>>
>>> Wow! That looks like the keyboard and the mouse doesn't like each
>>> other. The keyboard must be leaking enough radiation (radio
>>> frequency) to mask the mouse signal. I would think something with
>>> Microsoft's name on it would provide better shielding.
>>
>> But it's not a Windows 8 problem, so which part of "HP" and "Logitech"
>> has Microsoft's name on it?
>>
>> ( Just messin' with ya ;-) )
>>
>> Merry Chriswanzukkah!!!
>>
>>
>
> Whoops, I missed the "Microsoft comfort keyboard" :-( <insert Dumbass
> award here>

You will have to return it next week to pass it on to the others in future.


> (And that should be "Chriskwanzukkah". You'd think I was hitting the
> eggnog already today.)
>
> Have a great holiday :-)
>
>
>

[Scott J[_2_]]

"Gordon" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 25 Dec 2012 08:16:57 -0500, "SC Tom" > wrote:

>
>
>"BillW50" > wrote in message
...
><SNIP>
>>
>> Wow! That looks like the keyboard and the mouse doesn't like each other.
>> The keyboard must be leaking enough radiation (radio frequency) to mask
>> the mouse signal. I would think something with Microsoft's name on it
>> would provide better shielding.
>
>But it's not a Windows 8 problem, so which part of "HP" and "Logitech" has
>Microsoft's name on it?
>
The mouse problem comes and goes, and I'm beginning to think it is
being caused by something other than the keyboard. Any time it
happens, just moving the mouse a few inches clears the problem,
temporarily. It may bounce back in 10 minutes, or it may not show up
again for several hours. Also, it seems to happen most often when I'm
using Internet Explorer. Strange????

My wife suggested that I shouldn't pick my nose then use the mouse
without washing my hands. She thinks my boogies may be causing the
mouse to gum up, or some such. ;-) Gordon


A few weeks ago we were cleaning out the attic and found some old
computer stuff, including a mouse pad. We liked the design on the pad
and put it into service. Shortly after, the mouse started acting up.
Turns out, the surface of the mouse pad didn't play well with the wireless
mouse. We put back the old pad, and all is well.

[Gordon]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 05:38:12 -0800, "Scott J" > wrote:

>"Gordon" wrote in message
...
>
>On Tue, 25 Dec 2012 08:16:57 -0500, "SC Tom" > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"BillW50" > wrote in message
...
>><SNIP>
>>>
>>> Wow! That looks like the keyboard and the mouse doesn't like each other.
>>> The keyboard must be leaking enough radiation (radio frequency) to mask
>>> the mouse signal. I would think something with Microsoft's name on it
>>> would provide better shielding.
>>
>>But it's not a Windows 8 problem, so which part of "HP" and "Logitech" has
>>Microsoft's name on it?
>>
>The mouse problem comes and goes, and I'm beginning to think it is
>being caused by something other than the keyboard. Any time it
>happens, just moving the mouse a few inches clears the problem,
>temporarily. It may bounce back in 10 minutes, or it may not show up
>again for several hours. Also, it seems to happen most often when I'm
>using Internet Explorer. Strange????
>
>My wife suggested that I shouldn't pick my nose then use the mouse
>without washing my hands. She thinks my boogies may be causing the
>mouse to gum up, or some such. ;-) Gordon
>
>
>A few weeks ago we were cleaning out the attic and found some old
>computer stuff, including a mouse pad. We liked the design on the pad
>and put it into service. Shortly after, the mouse started acting up.
>Turns out, the surface of the mouse pad didn't play well with the wireless
>mouse. We put back the old pad, and all is well.
>
I don't think my problem has any ties to something like thsi. I don't
use a mouse pad and I have the mouse on the desktop over the pull-out
writing board. That is, there is nothing metalic or magnetic under or
close to the mouse.

A new cell phone center with a tall pole was recently errrected about
half a mile north of our house. I'm wondering if maybe this could be
causing some interference with my wireless mouse???? Gordon

[Paul]

Gordon wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 05:38:12 -0800, "Scott J" > wrote:
>
>> "Gordon" wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> On Tue, 25 Dec 2012 08:16:57 -0500, "SC Tom" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "BillW50" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> <SNIP>
>>>> Wow! That looks like the keyboard and the mouse doesn't like each other.
>>>> The keyboard must be leaking enough radiation (radio frequency) to mask
>>>> the mouse signal. I would think something with Microsoft's name on it
>>>> would provide better shielding.
>>> But it's not a Windows 8 problem, so which part of "HP" and "Logitech" has
>>> Microsoft's name on it?
>>>
>> The mouse problem comes and goes, and I'm beginning to think it is
>> being caused by something other than the keyboard. Any time it
>> happens, just moving the mouse a few inches clears the problem,
>> temporarily. It may bounce back in 10 minutes, or it may not show up
>> again for several hours. Also, it seems to happen most often when I'm
>> using Internet Explorer. Strange????
>>
>> My wife suggested that I shouldn't pick my nose then use the mouse
>> without washing my hands. She thinks my boogies may be causing the
>> mouse to gum up, or some such. ;-) Gordon
>>
>>
>> A few weeks ago we were cleaning out the attic and found some old
>> computer stuff, including a mouse pad. We liked the design on the pad
>> and put it into service. Shortly after, the mouse started acting up.
>> Turns out, the surface of the mouse pad didn't play well with the wireless
>> mouse. We put back the old pad, and all is well.
>>
> I don't think my problem has any ties to something like thsi. I don't
> use a mouse pad and I have the mouse on the desktop over the pull-out
> writing board. That is, there is nothing metalic or magnetic under or
> close to the mouse.
>
> A new cell phone center with a tall pole was recently errrected about
> half a mile north of our house. I'm wondering if maybe this could be
> causing some interference with my wireless mouse???? Gordon

Compare the list of frequencies in these two articles. I don't see
an overlap, but in presenting these, I'm assuming the keyboard uses
Bluetooth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies

{whole list of frequencies...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth

"Bluetooth uses a radio technology called frequency-hopping spread
spectrum, which chops up the data being sent and transmits chunks
of it on up to 79 bands (1 MHz each; centered from 2402 to 2480 MHz)
in the range 2,400–2,483.5 MHz (allowing for guard bands). This range
is in the globally unlicensed ISM 2.4 GHz short-range radio frequency
band. It usually performs 800 hops per second, with
Adaptive Frequency-Hopping (AFH) enabled."

Just for comparison, the leaky microwave oven as culprit...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven

"Microwave radiation is ... usually at 2.45 gigahertz (GHz) ...
or, in large industrial/commercial ovens, at 915 megahertz (MHz)."

So that one overlaps. But the signal is only there, if you're
using the microwave oven (and the door seals leak).

A keyboard doesn't have to use Bluetooth. There is some other scheme
used, with a much simpler modulation scheme. And that scheme is also
less likely to resist interference. It could well use a higher
transmission power as well. I don't know the details, and haven't
seen a web page that compares the methods used. At least the Bluetooth
modulation scheme, is more likely to be used now, due to the
level of technical sophistication. If any of the 79 bands is
temporarily knocked out, the thing can still work.

To other RF devices, Bluetooth might be interpreted as an "increase
in background noise". Rather than knocking out some other communications
for sure. UWB (not very common) carries that notion to an extreme.
Some day, we'll be debugging problems with this. (It might be used
for connecting an LCD monitor, without a cable.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband

Paul

[Gordon]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 09:50:39 -0500, Paul > wrote:

>Gordon wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 05:38:12 -0800, "Scott J" > wrote:
>>
>>> "Gordon" wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>> On Tue, 25 Dec 2012 08:16:57 -0500, "SC Tom" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "BillW50" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>> <SNIP>
>>>>> Wow! That looks like the keyboard and the mouse doesn't like each other.
>>>>> The keyboard must be leaking enough radiation (radio frequency) to mask
>>>>> the mouse signal. I would think something with Microsoft's name on it
>>>>> would provide better shielding.
>>>> But it's not a Windows 8 problem, so which part of "HP" and "Logitech" has
>>>> Microsoft's name on it?
>>>>
>>> The mouse problem comes and goes, and I'm beginning to think it is
>>> being caused by something other than the keyboard. Any time it
>>> happens, just moving the mouse a few inches clears the problem,
>>> temporarily. It may bounce back in 10 minutes, or it may not show up
>>> again for several hours. Also, it seems to happen most often when I'm
>>> using Internet Explorer. Strange????
>>>
>>> My wife suggested that I shouldn't pick my nose then use the mouse
>>> without washing my hands. She thinks my boogies may be causing the
>>> mouse to gum up, or some such. ;-) Gordon
>>>
>>>
>>> A few weeks ago we were cleaning out the attic and found some old
>>> computer stuff, including a mouse pad. We liked the design on the pad
>>> and put it into service. Shortly after, the mouse started acting up.
>>> Turns out, the surface of the mouse pad didn't play well with the wireless
>>> mouse. We put back the old pad, and all is well.
>>>
>> I don't think my problem has any ties to something like thsi. I don't
>> use a mouse pad and I have the mouse on the desktop over the pull-out
>> writing board. That is, there is nothing metalic or magnetic under or
>> close to the mouse.
>>
>> A new cell phone center with a tall pole was recently errrected about
>> half a mile north of our house. I'm wondering if maybe this could be
>> causing some interference with my wireless mouse???? Gordon
>
>Compare the list of frequencies in these two articles. I don't see
>an overlap, but in presenting these, I'm assuming the keyboard uses
>Bluetooth.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies
>
> {whole list of frequencies...)
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth
>
> "Bluetooth uses a radio technology called frequency-hopping spread
> spectrum, which chops up the data being sent and transmits chunks
> of it on up to 79 bands (1 MHz each; centered from 2402 to 2480 MHz)
> in the range 2,400–2,483.5 MHz (allowing for guard bands). This range
> is in the globally unlicensed ISM 2.4 GHz short-range radio frequency
> band. It usually performs 800 hops per second, with
> Adaptive Frequency-Hopping (AFH) enabled."
>
>Just for comparison, the leaky microwave oven as culprit...
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven
>
> "Microwave radiation is ... usually at 2.45 gigahertz (GHz) ...
> or, in large industrial/commercial ovens, at 915 megahertz (MHz)."
>
>So that one overlaps. But the signal is only there, if you're
>using the microwave oven (and the door seals leak).
>
>A keyboard doesn't have to use Bluetooth. There is some other scheme
>used, with a much simpler modulation scheme. And that scheme is also
>less likely to resist interference. It could well use a higher
>transmission power as well. I don't know the details, and haven't
>seen a web page that compares the methods used. At least the Bluetooth
>modulation scheme, is more likely to be used now, due to the
>level of technical sophistication. If any of the 79 bands is
>temporarily knocked out, the thing can still work.
>
>To other RF devices, Bluetooth might be interpreted as an "increase
>in background noise". Rather than knocking out some other communications
>for sure. UWB (not very common) carries that notion to an extreme.
>Some day, we'll be debugging problems with this. (It might be used
>for connecting an LCD monitor, without a cable.)
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband
>
> Paul
>
The keyboard is wired. Only the mouse is wireless. It works very well
most of the time but occasionally it will get this sticky problem.
That usually lasts only a snort while and it seems that if I move the
mouse away from the keyboard this causes the problem to go away for
the time being. I'm wondering if just picking the mouse up to move it
does something like jostle the ball around or maybe I touch the
wireless antenna in some way that causes it to resume normal activity.
Gordon

[Paul]

Gordon wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 09:50:39 -0500, Paul > wrote:
>
>> Gordon wrote:
>>> On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 05:38:12 -0800, "Scott J" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Gordon" wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 25 Dec 2012 08:16:57 -0500, "SC Tom" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "BillW50" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>> <SNIP>
>>>>>> Wow! That looks like the keyboard and the mouse doesn't like each other.
>>>>>> The keyboard must be leaking enough radiation (radio frequency) to mask
>>>>>> the mouse signal. I would think something with Microsoft's name on it
>>>>>> would provide better shielding.
>>>>> But it's not a Windows 8 problem, so which part of "HP" and "Logitech" has
>>>>> Microsoft's name on it?
>>>>>
>>>> The mouse problem comes and goes, and I'm beginning to think it is
>>>> being caused by something other than the keyboard. Any time it
>>>> happens, just moving the mouse a few inches clears the problem,
>>>> temporarily. It may bounce back in 10 minutes, or it may not show up
>>>> again for several hours. Also, it seems to happen most often when I'm
>>>> using Internet Explorer. Strange????
>>>>
>>>> My wife suggested that I shouldn't pick my nose then use the mouse
>>>> without washing my hands. She thinks my boogies may be causing the
>>>> mouse to gum up, or some such. ;-) Gordon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A few weeks ago we were cleaning out the attic and found some old
>>>> computer stuff, including a mouse pad. We liked the design on the pad
>>>> and put it into service. Shortly after, the mouse started acting up.
>>>> Turns out, the surface of the mouse pad didn't play well with the wireless
>>>> mouse. We put back the old pad, and all is well.
>>>>
>>> I don't think my problem has any ties to something like thsi. I don't
>>> use a mouse pad and I have the mouse on the desktop over the pull-out
>>> writing board. That is, there is nothing metalic or magnetic under or
>>> close to the mouse.
>>>
>>> A new cell phone center with a tall pole was recently errrected about
>>> half a mile north of our house. I'm wondering if maybe this could be
>>> causing some interference with my wireless mouse???? Gordon
>> Compare the list of frequencies in these two articles. I don't see
>> an overlap, but in presenting these, I'm assuming the keyboard uses
>> Bluetooth.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies
>>
>> {whole list of frequencies...)
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth
>>
>> "Bluetooth uses a radio technology called frequency-hopping spread
>> spectrum, which chops up the data being sent and transmits chunks
>> of it on up to 79 bands (1 MHz each; centered from 2402 to 2480 MHz)
>> in the range 2,400–2,483.5 MHz (allowing for guard bands). This range
>> is in the globally unlicensed ISM 2.4 GHz short-range radio frequency
>> band. It usually performs 800 hops per second, with
>> Adaptive Frequency-Hopping (AFH) enabled."
>>
>> Just for comparison, the leaky microwave oven as culprit...
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven
>>
>> "Microwave radiation is ... usually at 2.45 gigahertz (GHz) ...
>> or, in large industrial/commercial ovens, at 915 megahertz (MHz)."
>>
>> So that one overlaps. But the signal is only there, if you're
>> using the microwave oven (and the door seals leak).
>>
>> A keyboard doesn't have to use Bluetooth. There is some other scheme
>> used, with a much simpler modulation scheme. And that scheme is also
>> less likely to resist interference. It could well use a higher
>> transmission power as well. I don't know the details, and haven't
>> seen a web page that compares the methods used. At least the Bluetooth
>> modulation scheme, is more likely to be used now, due to the
>> level of technical sophistication. If any of the 79 bands is
>> temporarily knocked out, the thing can still work.
>>
>> To other RF devices, Bluetooth might be interpreted as an "increase
>> in background noise". Rather than knocking out some other communications
>> for sure. UWB (not very common) carries that notion to an extreme.
>> Some day, we'll be debugging problems with this. (It might be used
>> for connecting an LCD monitor, without a cable.)
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband
>>
>> Paul
>>
> The keyboard is wired. Only the mouse is wireless. It works very well
> most of the time but occasionally it will get this sticky problem.
> That usually lasts only a snort while and it seems that if I move the
> mouse away from the keyboard this causes the problem to go away for
> the time being. I'm wondering if just picking the mouse up to move it
> does something like jostle the ball around or maybe I touch the
> wireless antenna in some way that causes it to resume normal activity.
> Gordon

The wireless mouse is probably optical. Ball mice are less common now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_mouse

"An optical mouse might use an image sensor having an 18 × 18 pixel array
of monochromatic pixels. Its sensor would normally share the same ASIC
as that used for storing and processing the images. One refinement would
be accelerating the correlation process by using information from
previous motions, and another refinement would be preventing deadbands
when moving slowly by adding interpolation or frame-skipping."

If it really is a ball mouse, and is wireless, the wireless protocol
might not be Bluetooth. Then it's a matter of whether something else
in the house, is using the exact same frequency. I suppose, if a
cell tower is present near by, perhaps the front end of the
receiver could be overloaded with signal (even after filtering).

Paul

[Gordon]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 16:31:16 -0500, Paul > wrote:

>Gordon wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 09:50:39 -0500, Paul > wrote:
>>
>>> Gordon wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 05:38:12 -0800, "Scott J" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Gordon" wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 25 Dec 2012 08:16:57 -0500, "SC Tom" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "BillW50" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>> <SNIP>
>>>>>>> Wow! That looks like the keyboard and the mouse doesn't like each other.
>>>>>>> The keyboard must be leaking enough radiation (radio frequency) to mask
>>>>>>> the mouse signal. I would think something with Microsoft's name on it
>>>>>>> would provide better shielding.
>>>>>> But it's not a Windows 8 problem, so which part of "HP" and "Logitech" has
>>>>>> Microsoft's name on it?
>>>>>>
>>>>> The mouse problem comes and goes, and I'm beginning to think it is
>>>>> being caused by something other than the keyboard. Any time it
>>>>> happens, just moving the mouse a few inches clears the problem,
>>>>> temporarily. It may bounce back in 10 minutes, or it may not show up
>>>>> again for several hours. Also, it seems to happen most often when I'm
>>>>> using Internet Explorer. Strange????
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife suggested that I shouldn't pick my nose then use the mouse
>>>>> without washing my hands. She thinks my boogies may be causing the
>>>>> mouse to gum up, or some such. ;-) Gordon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A few weeks ago we were cleaning out the attic and found some old
>>>>> computer stuff, including a mouse pad. We liked the design on the pad
>>>>> and put it into service. Shortly after, the mouse started acting up.
>>>>> Turns out, the surface of the mouse pad didn't play well with the wireless
>>>>> mouse. We put back the old pad, and all is well.
>>>>>
>>>> I don't think my problem has any ties to something like thsi. I don't
>>>> use a mouse pad and I have the mouse on the desktop over the pull-out
>>>> writing board. That is, there is nothing metalic or magnetic under or
>>>> close to the mouse.
>>>>
>>>> A new cell phone center with a tall pole was recently errrected about
>>>> half a mile north of our house. I'm wondering if maybe this could be
>>>> causing some interference with my wireless mouse???? Gordon
>>> Compare the list of frequencies in these two articles. I don't see
>>> an overlap, but in presenting these, I'm assuming the keyboard uses
>>> Bluetooth.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies
>>>
>>> {whole list of frequencies...)
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth
>>>
>>> "Bluetooth uses a radio technology called frequency-hopping spread
>>> spectrum, which chops up the data being sent and transmits chunks
>>> of it on up to 79 bands (1 MHz each; centered from 2402 to 2480 MHz)
>>> in the range 2,400–2,483.5 MHz (allowing for guard bands). This range
>>> is in the globally unlicensed ISM 2.4 GHz short-range radio frequency
>>> band. It usually performs 800 hops per second, with
>>> Adaptive Frequency-Hopping (AFH) enabled."
>>>
>>> Just for comparison, the leaky microwave oven as culprit...
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven
>>>
>>> "Microwave radiation is ... usually at 2.45 gigahertz (GHz) ...
>>> or, in large industrial/commercial ovens, at 915 megahertz (MHz)."
>>>
>>> So that one overlaps. But the signal is only there, if you're
>>> using the microwave oven (and the door seals leak).
>>>
>>> A keyboard doesn't have to use Bluetooth. There is some other scheme
>>> used, with a much simpler modulation scheme. And that scheme is also
>>> less likely to resist interference. It could well use a higher
>>> transmission power as well. I don't know the details, and haven't
>>> seen a web page that compares the methods used. At least the Bluetooth
>>> modulation scheme, is more likely to be used now, due to the
>>> level of technical sophistication. If any of the 79 bands is
>>> temporarily knocked out, the thing can still work.
>>>
>>> To other RF devices, Bluetooth might be interpreted as an "increase
>>> in background noise". Rather than knocking out some other communications
>>> for sure. UWB (not very common) carries that notion to an extreme.
>>> Some day, we'll be debugging problems with this. (It might be used
>>> for connecting an LCD monitor, without a cable.)
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>> The keyboard is wired. Only the mouse is wireless. It works very well
>> most of the time but occasionally it will get this sticky problem.
>> That usually lasts only a snort while and it seems that if I move the
>> mouse away from the keyboard this causes the problem to go away for
>> the time being. I'm wondering if just picking the mouse up to move it
>> does something like jostle the ball around or maybe I touch the
>> wireless antenna in some way that causes it to resume normal activity.
>> Gordon
>
>The wireless mouse is probably optical. Ball mice are less common now.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_mouse
>
> "An optical mouse might use an image sensor having an 18 × 18 pixel array
> of monochromatic pixels. Its sensor would normally share the same ASIC
> as that used for storing and processing the images. One refinement would
> be accelerating the correlation process by using information from
> previous motions, and another refinement would be preventing deadbands
> when moving slowly by adding interpolation or frame-skipping."
>
>If it really is a ball mouse, and is wireless, the wireless protocol
>might not be Bluetooth. Then it's a matter of whether something else
>in the house, is using the exact same frequency. I suppose, if a
>cell tower is present near by, perhaps the front end of the
>receiver could be overloaded with signal (even after filtering).
>
> Paul
>
I may never get this problem figured out. It hasn't been erratic now
for the past day or so. Maybe it was being caused by something like
the microwave oven downstairs or maybe my wife was spewing out some
mental messages of some sort....who knows???

[BillW50]

On 12/26/2012 3:42 PM, Gordon wrote:
> I may never get this problem figured out. It hasn't been erratic now
> for the past day or so. Maybe it was being caused by something like
> the microwave oven downstairs or maybe my wife was spewing out some
> mental messages of some sort....who knows???

Most wireless devices operate at around 900MHz or 2.4GHz. Yours most
likely is the latter. And cell phones operate at one third of that which
could end up as a harmonic and could cause a problem. And I most
definitely have seen cellular interfere with wireless devices before.
Thus is true of cordless phones, but most of them also operate at 2.4GHz
too.

In the really strange but true category is things like my
brother-in-law. Who can't wear a mechanical or an electronic watch since
his back surgery. As both will stop working in a day or two. If he takes
them off, in a day or two they start working again.

My sister who is married to him, if she walks in my house even without
any electronic devices... my WiFi signal drops out until she leaves.
Talk about a magnetic personality! Anyway changed to a different
manufacture of wireless router and now all is fine. ;-)

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Thunderbird v12
Centrino Core2 Duo T7400 2.16 GHz - 4GB - Windows 7 SP1

[Gene E. Bloch[_2_]]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 16:32:18 -0600, BillW50 wrote:

> On 12/26/2012 3:42 PM, Gordon wrote:
>> I may never get this problem figured out. It hasn't been erratic now
>> for the past day or so. Maybe it was being caused by something like
>> the microwave oven downstairs or maybe my wife was spewing out some
>> mental messages of some sort....who knows???
>
> Most wireless devices operate at around 900MHz or 2.4GHz. Yours most
> likely is the latter. And cell phones operate at one third of that which
> could end up as a harmonic and could cause a problem. And I most
> definitely have seen cellular interfere with wireless devices before.
> Thus is true of cordless phones, but most of them also operate at 2.4GHz
> too.
>
> In the really strange but true category is things like my
> brother-in-law. Who can't wear a mechanical or an electronic watch since
> his back surgery. As both will stop working in a day or two. If he takes
> them off, in a day or two they start working again.
>
> My sister who is married to him, if she walks in my house even without
> any electronic devices... my WiFi signal drops out until she leaves.
> Talk about a magnetic personality! Anyway changed to a different
> manufacture of wireless router and now all is fine. ;-)

Do these two folks have RFID chips embedded, like some dogs and cats do?

Just teasing...

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

[Gene E. Bloch[_2_]]

On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 14:33:15 -0600, Gordon wrote:

> I don't think this is a Windows 8 related problem, but maybe someone
> here can shed a little light on it. My new HP Pavilion with Windows 8
> preinstalled is set up with a Logitech cordless mouse and a Microsoft
> Ergonomic wired keyboard. If I get the cordless mouse too close to the
> right hand end of my keyboard the mouse gets erratic. The screen's
> mouse pointer will stall out a bit then jump to a new location. If I
> move the mouse a few inches away from the keyboard it returns to a
> fully normal function. Is this a mouse flaw, a Windows 8 compatibility
> problem or just a quirk?
>
> I like to place the mouse close enough to the right hand end of the
> keyboard to let me use my thumb to click the Enter key then resume
> using that same thumb to roll the mouse ball. But, I have to keep the
> mouse at least 3 inches away from the keyboard. My thumb isn't long
> enough to work well across this distance. ;-) Gordon

A problem I have had is that the *receiver* for my mouse was in a bad
place. The receiver was plugged into a USB port on the back side of the
computer, relatively far from the mouse, and somewhat shaded from it by
the case.

I moved the mouse receiver onto a short USB extender, 12" or 18", and
draped the thing over to one side so that it's closer to the mouse and
not hidden from it. Now everything is consistent again.

This sort of problem has happened to me for s couple of different mice
and a couple of different computers, BTW.

I have even managed to use a wireless keyboard and a wireless mouse of
different brands, requiring different receivers, on the same computer
without problems (other than as above). Mixing wired and wireless was
never a problem, unlike in your case.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

[Robin Bignall]

On Fri, 28 Dec 2012 16:31:32 -0800, "Gene E. Bloch"
> wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 14:33:15 -0600, Gordon wrote:
>
>> I don't think this is a Windows 8 related problem, but maybe someone
>> here can shed a little light on it. My new HP Pavilion with Windows 8
>> preinstalled is set up with a Logitech cordless mouse and a Microsoft
>> Ergonomic wired keyboard. If I get the cordless mouse too close to the
>> right hand end of my keyboard the mouse gets erratic. The screen's
>> mouse pointer will stall out a bit then jump to a new location. If I
>> move the mouse a few inches away from the keyboard it returns to a
>> fully normal function. Is this a mouse flaw, a Windows 8 compatibility
>> problem or just a quirk?
>>
>> I like to place the mouse close enough to the right hand end of the
>> keyboard to let me use my thumb to click the Enter key then resume
>> using that same thumb to roll the mouse ball. But, I have to keep the
>> mouse at least 3 inches away from the keyboard. My thumb isn't long
>> enough to work well across this distance. ;-) Gordon
>
>A problem I have had is that the *receiver* for my mouse was in a bad
>place. The receiver was plugged into a USB port on the back side of the
>computer, relatively far from the mouse, and somewhat shaded from it by
>the case.
>
>I moved the mouse receiver onto a short USB extender, 12" or 18", and
>draped the thing over to one side so that it's closer to the mouse and
>not hidden from it. Now everything is consistent again.
>
I bought a D-Link 7-port powered hub with a 1 metre cable to use to sit
by the Desktop about 2 feet from the keyboard/mouse/left-hand-side
numeric pad* setup. I've also got leads for my cameras plugged in. It
also has 2 higher-amp charging ports for phones or a Kindle. Ten UKP
for the box and 2 for the cable was a bargain, I thought.

>This sort of problem has happened to me for s couple of different mice
>and a couple of different computers, BTW.
>
>I have even managed to use a wireless keyboard and a wireless mouse of
>different brands, requiring different receivers, on the same computer
>without problems (other than as above). Mixing wired and wireless was
>never a problem, unlike in your case.

Mine are all wireless, Logitech plus Targus pad. Different wireless
systems.

* I like a numeric keypad to the left of the keyboard. The Targus is so
cheap (8 UKP) that it couldn't be true, but it is a fantastic device.
Works well and is much cheaper than the Logitech equivalent.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England