Windows 8's classic interface?

[Yousuf Khan[_2_]]

I'm now starting to feel like one of those old men who got totally
confused when Microsoft slightly changed the start menu between Windows
XP and Vista or 7, and before that when they changed it between Windows
95/98 and 2000/XP. They had such a hard time figuring things out, even
though things weren't really all that different if just tried a little
harder.

So recently a friend of mine got a new laptop with Windows 8
pre-installed on it. And although we found out how to get back to
somewhat classic interface, quickly enough, it's not exactly the same as
the classic interface is it? It doesn't have anything like start/search
button in Windows 7? I know we can install many 3rd party start button
emulators for Windows 8, but what if we're working at someone's Windows
8 computer that doesn't have these installed? We're stuck with using
whatever is already pre-installed on Win8. Is there a start button
hidden away in Win 8 somewhere, that we hadn't discovered?

Yousuf Khan

[Auric__]

Yousuf Khan wrote:

> I'm now starting to feel like one of those old men who got totally
> confused when Microsoft slightly changed the start menu between Windows
> XP and Vista or 7, and before that when they changed it between Windows
> 95/98 and 2000/XP. They had such a hard time figuring things out, even
> though things weren't really all that different if just tried a little
> harder.
>
> So recently a friend of mine got a new laptop with Windows 8
> pre-installed on it. And although we found out how to get back to
> somewhat classic interface, quickly enough, it's not exactly the same as
> the classic interface is it? It doesn't have anything like start/search
> button in Windows 7? I know we can install many 3rd party start button
> emulators for Windows 8, but what if we're working at someone's Windows
> 8 computer that doesn't have these installed? We're stuck with using
> whatever is already pre-installed on Win8. Is there a start button
> hidden away in Win 8 somewhere, that we hadn't discovered?

No... but there *is* Classic Shell:

http://www.classicshell.net/

Quote from the website:

"Start button for Windows 7 and Windows 8"

....among other features.

--
Yeah, if they had a really great win they could just buy new kids.
I hear you can get some good hard working ones from China.

[Nil[_2_]]

On 13 Jan 2013, Yousuf Khan > wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-8:

> Is there a start button hidden away in Win
> 8 somewhere, that we hadn't discovered?

The Metro interface *IS* the replacement for the Start button. Anything
that would have been listed in Windows 7's Programs menu will be found
there. You can also search for programs from the Metro screen.

I think it's terribly clumsy and ugly, but it has similar functionality
to the Start menu. I'd replace it with Classic Shell if it were mine,
but in a pinch Metro can be used.

[FD[_4_]]

Is there a start button
> hidden away in Win 8 somewhere, that we hadn't discovered?
>
> Yousuf Khan


No

Use windows + x key

FD

[Ken Blake[_4_]]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 15:42:54 -0500, Yousuf Khan
> wrote:


> So recently a friend of mine got a new laptop with Windows 8
> pre-installed on it. And although we found out how to get back to
> somewhat classic interface, quickly enough, it's not exactly the same as
> the classic interface is it? It doesn't have anything like start/search
> button in Windows 7? I know we can install many 3rd party start button
> emulators for Windows 8, but what if we're working at someone's Windows
> 8 computer that doesn't have these installed? We're stuck with using
> whatever is already pre-installed on Win8. Is there a start button
> hidden away in Win 8 somewhere, that we hadn't discovered?


No. You need a third-party program to get it back. I have two
recommendations--the free Classic Shell
(http://www.classicshell.net/), or even better, the almost free ($4.99
US) Start8 (http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/).


--
Ken Blake

[BillW50]

On 1/13/2013 2:42 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
> I'm now starting to feel like one of those old men who got totally
> confused when Microsoft slightly changed the start menu between Windows
> XP and Vista or 7, and before that when they changed it between Windows
> 95/98 and 2000/XP. They had such a hard time figuring things out, even
> though things weren't really all that different if just tried a little
> harder.
>
> So recently a friend of mine got a new laptop with Windows 8
> pre-installed on it. And although we found out how to get back to
> somewhat classic interface, quickly enough, it's not exactly the same as
> the classic interface is it? It doesn't have anything like start/search
> button in Windows 7? I know we can install many 3rd party start button
> emulators for Windows 8, but what if we're working at someone's Windows
> 8 computer that doesn't have these installed? We're stuck with using
> whatever is already pre-installed on Win8. Is there a start button
> hidden away in Win 8 somewhere, that we hadn't discovered?
>
> Yousuf Khan

Come on Yousuf! So what if the Start Menu we had seen for what 17 years
now is now called the Start Screen and it looks different and takes the
whole screen. Is that really so hard?

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Thunderbird v12
Centrino Core2 Duo T7400 2.16 GHz - 4GB - Windows 8

[Paul]

Yousuf Khan wrote:
> I'm now starting to feel like one of those old men who got totally
> confused when Microsoft slightly changed the start menu between Windows
> XP and Vista or 7, and before that when they changed it between Windows
> 95/98 and 2000/XP. They had such a hard time figuring things out, even
> though things weren't really all that different if just tried a little
> harder.
>
> So recently a friend of mine got a new laptop with Windows 8
> pre-installed on it. And although we found out how to get back to
> somewhat classic interface, quickly enough, it's not exactly the same as
> the classic interface is it? It doesn't have anything like start/search
> button in Windows 7? I know we can install many 3rd party start button
> emulators for Windows 8, but what if we're working at someone's Windows
> 8 computer that doesn't have these installed? We're stuck with using
> whatever is already pre-installed on Win8. Is there a start button
> hidden away in Win 8 somewhere, that we hadn't discovered?
>
> Yousuf Khan

If such a thing existed, there'd be hardly any traffic
in this newsgroup :-)

Even though people were asking for such, during the previews
of Windows 8, Microsoft wasn't listening.

What you did get in the released version of Windows 8, was
a kind of tutorial so you could use the machine a bit.

*******

I suppose you could go around, carrying a copy of this.
(Dell's primer for Windows 8)

https://marketing.dell.com/Global/FileLib/Windows_8/windows-8-ebook.pdf

Leave a copy with the person the night before, and have them
skim read it by the next day. Then, drop by, and be prepared
to be amazed by their new level of proficiency.

Paul

[mechanic]

Paul > wrote:
> Yousuf Khan wrote:
>> I'm now starting to feel like one of those old men who got totally >
>> confused when Microsoft slightly changed the start menu between Windows
>> > XP and Vista or 7, and before that when they changed it between
>>> Windows > 95/98 and 2000/XP. They had such a hard time figuring things
>>> out, even > though things weren't really all that different if just
>>> tried a little > harder.
>>> So recently a friend of mine got a new laptop with Windows 8 >
>>> pre-installed on it. And although we found out how to get back to >
>>> somewhat classic interface, quickly enough, it's not exactly the same
>>> as > the classic interface is it? It doesn't have anything like
>>> start/search > button in Windows 7? I know we can install many 3rd
>>> party start button > emulators for Windows 8, but what if we're working
>>> at someone's Windows > 8 computer that doesn't have these installed?
>>> We're stuck with using > whatever is already pre-installed on Win8. Is
>>> there a start button > hidden away in Win 8 somewhere, that we hadn't discovered?
>>> Yousuf Khan
>
> If such a thing existed, there'd be hardly any traffic
> in this newsgroup :-)
>
> Even though people were asking for such, during the previews
> of Windows 8, Microsoft wasn't listening.
>
> What you did get in the released version of Windows 8, was
> a kind of tutorial so you could use the machine a bit.
>
> *******
>
> I suppose you could go around, carrying a copy of this.
> (Dell's primer for Windows 8)
>
> https://marketing.dell.com/Global/FileLib/Windows_8/windows-8-ebook.pdf
>
> Leave a copy with the person the night before, and have them
> skim read it by the next day. Then, drop by, and be prepared
> to be amazed by their new level of proficiency.
>
> Paul

Aren't there Dummies books for this kind of thing? And are some people with
problems navigating the new interface actually charging others for their
advice ? Only in America!!

[JJ[_9_]]

Yousuf Khan > wrote:

> I'm now starting to feel like one of those old men who got totally
> confused when Microsoft slightly changed the start menu between Windows
> XP and Vista or 7, and before that when they changed it between Windows
> 95/98 and 2000/XP. They had such a hard time figuring things out, even
> though things weren't really all that different if just tried a little
> harder.
>
> So recently a friend of mine got a new laptop with Windows 8
> pre-installed on it. And although we found out how to get back to
> somewhat classic interface, quickly enough, it's not exactly the same
as
> the classic interface is it? It doesn't have anything like start/search
> button in Windows 7? I know we can install many 3rd party start button
> emulators for Windows 8, but what if we're working at someone's Windows
> 8 computer that doesn't have these installed? We're stuck with using
> whatever is already pre-installed on Win8. Is there a start button
> hidden away in Win 8 somewhere, that we hadn't discovered?
>
> Yousuf Khan

The Start Menu is officially killed by Microsoft. There's no
hidden/undocumented setting to get it back.

Try Ex7ForW8 from one of below URLs to kill the Start Screen and re-add
the Start Menu. You'll need to register to the forum in order to download
it, but the software is free.

http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/157302-windows-7-explorer-for-windows-8/
http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/35189-Windows-7-explorer-for-
Windows-8

[Gordon]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:49:54 +0000 (UTC), JJ > wrote:

>Yousuf Khan > wrote:
>
>> I'm now starting to feel like one of those old men who got totally
>> confused when Microsoft slightly changed the start menu between Windows
>> XP and Vista or 7, and before that when they changed it between Windows
>> 95/98 and 2000/XP. They had such a hard time figuring things out, even
>> though things weren't really all that different if just tried a little
>> harder.
>>
>> So recently a friend of mine got a new laptop with Windows 8
>> pre-installed on it. And although we found out how to get back to
>> somewhat classic interface, quickly enough, it's not exactly the same
>as
>> the classic interface is it? It doesn't have anything like start/search
>> button in Windows 7? I know we can install many 3rd party start button
>> emulators for Windows 8, but what if we're working at someone's Windows
>> 8 computer that doesn't have these installed? We're stuck with using
>> whatever is already pre-installed on Win8. Is there a start button
>> hidden away in Win 8 somewhere, that we hadn't discovered?
>>
>> Yousuf Khan
>
>The Start Menu is officially killed by Microsoft. There's no
>hidden/undocumented setting to get it back.
>
>Try Ex7ForW8 from one of below URLs to kill the Start Screen and re-add
>the Start Menu. You'll need to register to the forum in order to download
>it, but the software is free.
>
>http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/157302-windows-7-explorer-for-windows-8/
>http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/35189-Windows-7-explorer-for-
>Windows-8
>
Isn't this called the Quick Access Menu, now? Press the Windows Key
and the X key and see if this works about like the Start menu used to
work. Gordon

[JJ[_9_]]

Gordon > wrote:
> Isn't this called the Quick Access Menu, now? Press the Windows Key
> and the X key and see if this works about like the Start menu used to
> work. Gordon

No. Quick Access Menu is not a Start Menu. It's just a simple popup menu
for quick access. It doesn't look and work like the Start Menu.

[Todd[_5_]]

On 01/13/2013 12:42 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
> I'm now starting to feel like one of those old men who got totally
> confused when Microsoft slightly changed the start menu between Windows
> XP and Vista or 7, and before that when they changed it between Windows
> 95/98 and 2000/XP. They had such a hard time figuring things out, even
> though things weren't really all that different if just tried a little
> harder.

Hi Yousuf,

[pep talk] Don't be too hard on yourself. W8 is hard to use.

When a customer shoved an iPad (almost useless toy) under my
nose for the first time, I literally had to ask about a
minutes worth of question and I was up and configuring his
eMail. The iPad is hermetically intuitive.

Windows 8 is the antidote! Swear words have not yet been
invented to describe it.

But, that being said, force yourself to learn the turkey
anyway. A lot of people are going to need our help.
And in the words of Bugs Bunny, its a living! [/pep talk]

-T

[Todd[_5_]]

On 01/13/2013 12:42 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
> I'm now starting to feel like one of those old men who got totally
> confused when Microsoft slightly changed the start menu between Windows
> XP and Vista or 7, and before that when they changed it between Windows
> 95/98 and 2000/XP. They had such a hard time figuring things out, even
> though things weren't really all that different if just tried a little
> harder.
>
> So recently a friend of mine got a new laptop with Windows 8
> pre-installed on it. And although we found out how to get back to
> somewhat classic interface, quickly enough, it's not exactly the same as
> the classic interface is it? It doesn't have anything like start/search
> button in Windows 7? I know we can install many 3rd party start button
> emulators for Windows 8, but what if we're working at someone's Windows
> 8 computer that doesn't have these installed? We're stuck with using
> whatever is already pre-installed on Win8. Is there a start button
> hidden away in Win 8 somewhere, that we hadn't discovered?
>
> Yousuf Khan

Hi Yousuf,

I understand you not wanting to put third party utilities
on other people's machines. Plus you really should force
yourself to learn the stinker in its glorious, original
incarnation.

The start menu has been replaced by the Metro screen. It
gets called the Start Screen a lot. Get it? Start Screen
replaces the Start button. And remember, Rube Goldberg
will be smiling in his grave!

If you are in the Desktop, just press the <windows> key to
toggle you back and forth with Metro and the desktop.
In the desktop, you can also drag your mouse at a 45 deg
angle off the lower left edge of the screen, a little
metro looking box will pop up at the edge to click on,
but if you miss at all, you will probably start IE
from the task bar, like I did several times. (I "might"
have called W8 a bad word or two over it.) Much easier
on the nerves just to press the <Windows> key and
a lot faster.

Once in Metro, find a blank space and Right Click on
it. Then click on the "All Apps" icons that pops up.
Eventually you will find what you want. (I have
been using Search to find what I want a lot.) Don't
expect it to be intuitive and you should be okay.

And, whatever you do, *do not, do not* let the customer
hear you swear.

-T

[..winston]

"Gordon" wrote in message ...

>
Isn't this called the Quick Access Menu, now? Press the Windows Key
and the X key and see if this works about like the Start menu used to
work.
>

Quick Access is a term associated with a toolbar (first appearing in Office) called the Quick Access Toolbar and optionally located
above or below the Ribbon, hidden or unhidden.

For short, it is often abbreviated as QAT and appearing in other MSFT products (in conjunction with Ribbon based UI's)

--
....winston
msft mvp

[R. C. White]

Hi, Todd.

> In the desktop, you can also drag your mouse at a 45 deg angle off the
> lower left edge of the screen, a little metro looking box will pop up at
> the edge to click on, but if you miss at all, you will probably start IE

Takes a while to get used to this, but...DO NOT click ON the little box.
Moving your mouse back to hit that box makes that box disappear as soon as
the mouse gets back onscreen - and your mouse-click registers on the Taskbar
(probably). Let the mouse cursor stay off-screen - seemingly - but actually
in the extreme corner of the screen, and click there. Same in the other
corners. And note that when the corner pop-up appears, other things happen.
If you keep the pointer at the edge and move it vertically, more things
might appear. (One that I've found useful, since my Clock gadget is gone in
Win8, is to put the mouse pointer in the lower right corner - to make the
Charms bar appear - and then slide it up the right edge an inch or so to
make the big clock icon appear onscreen. Kind of clumsy, but at least I
know when it's time for my coffee break.) If you explore, you'll find
several more such "unadvertised specials". ;<)

Slowly, these gestures are becoming intuitive to me - but that's an
oxymoron, isn't it? If it were truly intuitive it would not require
training, would it? Maybe it is becoming "physical memory" as I use Win8
and train myself, both physically and mentally.

RC
-- --
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2012 (Build 16.4.3505.0912) in Win8 Pro


"Todd" wrote in message ...

On 01/13/2013 12:42 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
> I'm now starting to feel like one of those old men who got totally
> confused when Microsoft slightly changed the start menu between Windows
> XP and Vista or 7, and before that when they changed it between Windows
> 95/98 and 2000/XP. They had such a hard time figuring things out, even
> though things weren't really all that different if just tried a little
> harder.
>
> So recently a friend of mine got a new laptop with Windows 8
> pre-installed on it. And although we found out how to get back to
> somewhat classic interface, quickly enough, it's not exactly the same as
> the classic interface is it? It doesn't have anything like start/search
> button in Windows 7? I know we can install many 3rd party start button
> emulators for Windows 8, but what if we're working at someone's Windows
> 8 computer that doesn't have these installed? We're stuck with using
> whatever is already pre-installed on Win8. Is there a start button
> hidden away in Win 8 somewhere, that we hadn't discovered?
>
> Yousuf Khan

Hi Yousuf,

I understand you not wanting to put third party utilities
on other people's machines. Plus you really should force
yourself to learn the stinker in its glorious, original
incarnation.

The start menu has been replaced by the Metro screen. It
gets called the Start Screen a lot. Get it? Start Screen
replaces the Start button. And remember, Rube Goldberg
will be smiling in his grave!

If you are in the Desktop, just press the <windows> key to
toggle you back and forth with Metro and the desktop.
In the desktop, you can also drag your mouse at a 45 deg
angle off the lower left edge of the screen, a little
metro looking box will pop up at the edge to click on,
but if you miss at all, you will probably start IE
from the task bar, like I did several times. (I "might"
have called W8 a bad word or two over it.) Much easier
on the nerves just to press the <Windows> key and
a lot faster.

Once in Metro, find a blank space and Right Click on
it. Then click on the "All Apps" icons that pops up.
Eventually you will find what you want. (I have
been using Search to find what I want a lot.) Don't
expect it to be intuitive and you should be okay.

And, whatever you do, *do not, do not* let the customer
hear you swear.

-T

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 09:22:32 -0600, "R. C. White" >
wrote in article >...
>
> Hi, Todd.
>
> > In the desktop, you can also drag your mouse at a 45 deg angle off the
> > lower left edge of the screen, a little metro looking box will pop up at
> > the edge to click on, but if you miss at all, you will probably start IE
>
> Takes a while to get used to this, but...DO NOT click ON the little box.
> Moving your mouse back to hit that box makes that box disappear as soon as
> the mouse gets back onscreen - and your mouse-click registers on the Taskbar
> (probably).


Most. Annoying. Behavior. Ever!

--
Zaphod

Adventurer, ex-hippie, good-timer (crook? quite possibly),
manic self-publicist, terrible bad at personal relationships,
often thought to be completely out to lunch.

[Gordon]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 09:22:32 -0600, "R. C. White" >
wrote:

>Hi, Todd.
>
>> In the desktop, you can also drag your mouse at a 45 deg angle off the
>> lower left edge of the screen, a little metro looking box will pop up at
>> the edge to click on, but if you miss at all, you will probably start IE
>
>Takes a while to get used to this, but...DO NOT click ON the little box.
>Moving your mouse back to hit that box makes that box disappear as soon as
>the mouse gets back onscreen - and your mouse-click registers on the Taskbar
>(probably). Let the mouse cursor stay off-screen - seemingly - but actually
>in the extreme corner of the screen, and click there. Same in the other
>corners. And note that when the corner pop-up appears, other things happen.
>If you keep the pointer at the edge and move it vertically, more things
>might appear. (One that I've found useful, since my Clock gadget is gone in
>Win8, is to put the mouse pointer in the lower right corner - to make the
>Charms bar appear - and then slide it up the right edge an inch or so to
>make the big clock icon appear onscreen. Kind of clumsy, but at least I
>know when it's time for my coffee break.) If you explore, you'll find
>several more such "unadvertised specials". ;<)
>
>Slowly, these gestures are becoming intuitive to me - but that's an
>oxymoron, isn't it? If it were truly intuitive it would not require
>training, would it? Maybe it is becoming "physical memory" as I use Win8
>and train myself, both physically and mentally.
>
>RC
>-- --
>R. C. White, CPA
>San Marcos, TX

>Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
>Windows Live Mail 2012 (Build 16.4.3505.0912) in Win8 Pro
>
>
>"Todd" wrote in message ...
>
>On 01/13/2013 12:42 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
>> I'm now starting to feel like one of those old men who got totally
>> confused when Microsoft slightly changed the start menu between Windows
>> XP and Vista or 7, and before that when they changed it between Windows
>> 95/98 and 2000/XP. They had such a hard time figuring things out, even
>> though things weren't really all that different if just tried a little
>> harder.
>>
>> So recently a friend of mine got a new laptop with Windows 8
>> pre-installed on it. And although we found out how to get back to
>> somewhat classic interface, quickly enough, it's not exactly the same as
>> the classic interface is it? It doesn't have anything like start/search
>> button in Windows 7? I know we can install many 3rd party start button
>> emulators for Windows 8, but what if we're working at someone's Windows
>> 8 computer that doesn't have these installed? We're stuck with using
>> whatever is already pre-installed on Win8. Is there a start button
>> hidden away in Win 8 somewhere, that we hadn't discovered?
>>
>> Yousuf Khan
>
>Hi Yousuf,
>
>I understand you not wanting to put third party utilities
>on other people's machines. Plus you really should force
>yourself to learn the stinker in its glorious, original
>incarnation.
>
I agree, there is a tedious learning process associated with Windows
8, but now that I've been "learning" it for about two months, I'm
getting to like it better than the earlier versions. Gordon
>
>The start menu has been replaced by the Metro screen. It
>gets called the Start Screen a lot. Get it? Start Screen
>replaces the Start button. And remember, Rube Goldberg
>will be smiling in his grave!
>
If one wants something similar to the Start Menu, just press the
Windows key and the X key to open a pop-up with the Start Menu items
listed.
>
>If you are in the Desktop, just press the <windows> key to
>toggle you back and forth with Metro and the desktop.
>In the desktop, you can also drag your mouse at a 45 deg
>angle off the lower left edge of the screen, a little
>metro looking box will pop up at the edge to click on,
>but if you miss at all, you will probably start IE
>from the task bar, like I did several times. (I "might"
>have called W8 a bad word or two over it.) Much easier
>on the nerves just to press the <Windows> key and
>a lot faster.
>
>Once in Metro, find a blank space and Right Click on
>it. Then click on the "All Apps" icons that pops up.
>Eventually you will find what you want. (I have
>been using Search to find what I want a lot.) Don't
>expect it to be intuitive and you should be okay.
>
>And, whatever you do, *do not, do not* let the customer
>hear you swear.
>
>-T
>
My Windows 8 shows a Time and Date at the rigtht end of the Task Bar,
just to the right of the Notiffication Area.

[Ken Blake[_4_]]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 23:34:51 -0800, Todd > wrote:

> Don't be too hard on yourself. W8 is hard to use.
> ...
> Swear words have not yet been
> invented to describe it.


I completely disagree. Two points:

1. Windows 8 has two interfaces; the Modern/Metro Interface (which
may be all you've looked at) and the traditional Desktop Interface.
That traditional Desktop Interface is almost identical to Windows 7's
interface; the biggest difference is that there is no Start Orb to
click to bring up the Start menu. But note that you can get the Start
Orb back by using one of several third-party programs, either free or
very inexpensive (Classic Shell at
http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/ and Start8 at
http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/; my personal preference is
Start8, but they are both very good). And going from one interface to
the other is very easy; there are several ways, but simply pressing
the Windows key is perhaps the easiest.

I use Windows 8, almost exclusively with the traditional desktop
interface, and with Start 8 installed. If you were to look at and use
my computer, you would have a hard time realizing that it's not
Windows 7.

2. Yes, the Metro/Modern interface is much less familiar, and if you
use it, it takes some getting used to. But it's not that complex, and
learning to use it doesn't take long. I don't find it "hard to use" at
all.

And if you do find it hard to use, simply don't use it. It's not at
all necessary.


--
Ken Blake

[R. C. White]

Hi, Gordon.

> My Windows 8 shows a Time and Date at the rigtht end of the Task Bar, just
> to the right of the Notiffication Area.

Mine, too, when I'm in the Desktop view. I should have made it clear that I
was talking about the Modern (Metro) view.

RC
-- --
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2012 (Build 16.4.3505.0912) in Win8 Pro


"Gordon" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 09:22:32 -0600, "R. C. White" >
wrote:

>Hi, Todd.
>
>> In the desktop, you can also drag your mouse at a 45 deg angle off the
>> lower left edge of the screen, a little metro looking box will pop up at
>> the edge to click on, but if you miss at all, you will probably start IE
>
>Takes a while to get used to this, but...DO NOT click ON the little box.
>Moving your mouse back to hit that box makes that box disappear as soon as
>the mouse gets back onscreen - and your mouse-click registers on the
>Taskbar
>(probably). Let the mouse cursor stay off-screen - seemingly - but
>actually
>in the extreme corner of the screen, and click there. Same in the other
>corners. And note that when the corner pop-up appears, other things
>happen.
>If you keep the pointer at the edge and move it vertically, more things
>might appear. (One that I've found useful, since my Clock gadget is gone
>in
>Win8, is to put the mouse pointer in the lower right corner - to make the
>Charms bar appear - and then slide it up the right edge an inch or so to
>make the big clock icon appear onscreen. Kind of clumsy, but at least I
>know when it's time for my coffee break.) If you explore, you'll find
>several more such "unadvertised specials". ;<)
>
>Slowly, these gestures are becoming intuitive to me - but that's an
>oxymoron, isn't it? If it were truly intuitive it would not require
>training, would it? Maybe it is becoming "physical memory" as I use Win8
>and train myself, both physically and mentally.
>
>RC
>
>
>"Todd" wrote in message ...
>
>On 01/13/2013 12:42 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
>> I'm now starting to feel like one of those old men who got totally
>> confused when Microsoft slightly changed the start menu between Windows
>> XP and Vista or 7, and before that when they changed it between Windows
>> 95/98 and 2000/XP. They had such a hard time figuring things out, even
>> though things weren't really all that different if just tried a little
>> harder.
>>
>> So recently a friend of mine got a new laptop with Windows 8
>> pre-installed on it. And although we found out how to get back to
>> somewhat classic interface, quickly enough, it's not exactly the same as
>> the classic interface is it? It doesn't have anything like start/search
>> button in Windows 7? I know we can install many 3rd party start button
>> emulators for Windows 8, but what if we're working at someone's Windows
>> 8 computer that doesn't have these installed? We're stuck with using
>> whatever is already pre-installed on Win8. Is there a start button
>> hidden away in Win 8 somewhere, that we hadn't discovered?
>>
>> Yousuf Khan
>
>Hi Yousuf,
>
>I understand you not wanting to put third party utilities
>on other people's machines. Plus you really should force
>yourself to learn the stinker in its glorious, original
>incarnation.
>
I agree, there is a tedious learning process associated with Windows
8, but now that I've been "learning" it for about two months, I'm
getting to like it better than the earlier versions. Gordon
>
>The start menu has been replaced by the Metro screen. It
>gets called the Start Screen a lot. Get it? Start Screen
>replaces the Start button. And remember, Rube Goldberg
>will be smiling in his grave!
>
If one wants something similar to the Start Menu, just press the
Windows key and the X key to open a pop-up with the Start Menu items
listed.
>
>If you are in the Desktop, just press the <windows> key to
>toggle you back and forth with Metro and the desktop.
>In the desktop, you can also drag your mouse at a 45 deg
>angle off the lower left edge of the screen, a little
>metro looking box will pop up at the edge to click on,
>but if you miss at all, you will probably start IE
>from the task bar, like I did several times. (I "might"
>have called W8 a bad word or two over it.) Much easier
>on the nerves just to press the <Windows> key and
>a lot faster.
>
>Once in Metro, find a blank space and Right Click on
>it. Then click on the "All Apps" icons that pops up.
>Eventually you will find what you want. (I have
>been using Search to find what I want a lot.) Don't
>expect it to be intuitive and you should be okay.
>
>And, whatever you do, *do not, do not* let the customer
>hear you swear.
>
>-T
>
My Windows 8 shows a Time and Date at the rigtht end of the Task Bar,
just to the right of the Notiffication Area.

[Gordon]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 11:27:41 -0600, "R. C. White" >
wrote:

>Hi, Gordon.
>
>> My Windows 8 shows a Time and Date at the rigtht end of the Task Bar, just
>> to the right of the Notiffication Area.
>
>Mine, too, when I'm in the Desktop view. I should have made it clear that I
>was talking about the Modern (Metro) view.
>
Okay, R.C., I see what you mean, now. I don't need a desktop clock
very much because I have an old fashioned clock on my desk slelf, just
above my computer. And, to determine when I need another coffee break
I just look into my cup and if the last of the coffee stain has dried
and formed a crust, it's time for another cup. Gordon

[Ken Blake[_4_]]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:07:09 -0600, Gordon >
wrote:

> My Windows 8 shows a Time and Date at the rigtht end of the Task Bar,
> just to the right of the Notiffication Area.


My Windows 8 shows a Time and Date at the *bottom* end of the Task
Bar, just to the *bottom* of the Notification Area. <g>

If that confuses you, let me point out that although by default the
task bar appears on the bottom of the screen, it can be on any of the
sides you prefer it on, in all versions of Windows. To move it from
any side to another, simply click on an unused part of it and drag it
where you want it. Be sure to click *within* it, not on the edge;
clicking on the edge and dragging will resize it, not move it.

If it won't move, it may be locked. In that case, right click on it
and uncheck "Lock the taskbar," then try again.

By the way, with today's wide-screen monitors, I prefer the task bar
on the left or right side of the screen. I think that makes a better
use of screen real estate than having it at the bottom. And to go back
to my first sentence above, my task bar is on the left side of the
screen.


--
Ken Blake

[Todd[_5_]]

On 01/15/2013 08:23 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> And if you do find it hard to use, simply don't use it. It's not at
> all necessary.

Hi Ken,

If customers are going to be using it, I need to learn it.
Just bitching about the learning curve. (A curve that
should have never been there. Okay, still bitching.)

-T

[Todd[_5_]]

On 01/16/2013 01:03 PM, Todd wrote:
> On 01/15/2013 08:23 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> And if you do find it hard to use, simply don't use it. It's not at
>> all necessary.
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> If customers are going to be using it, I need to learn it.
> Just bitching about the learning curve. (A curve that
> should have never been there. Okay, still bitching.)
>
> -T

Had two customers speak to me this week about getting
a new computer. Both had already heard about W8 and
where seeking my advice on buying an Apple. They
got the "M$ has won the applications war" lecture,
but they did not care that there were virtually no
programs out there for them to run. W8 is (rightfully)
perceived as difficult to use and Apple is perceived
as user friendly. (And Apple's American tech support
is unbelievable, where as M$'s Indian support is
tragic to say the least.)

The learning curve should have never been there. And, it
is not like M$ did not know this was going to happen.
The bitching when they were developing W8 was PRODIGIOUS!

I will get W8 down, even if I have to learn a few new
four letter words in the process.

[Ken Blake[_4_]]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:03:47 -0800, Todd > wrote:

> On 01/15/2013 08:23 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> > And if you do find it hard to use, simply don't use it. It's not at
> > all necessary.
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> If customers are going to be using it, I need to learn it.


OK, understood. And in that case you need to learn the Metro/Modern
interface too.


> Just bitching about the learning curve. (A curve that
> should have never been there. Okay, still bitching.)


The learning curve is there only if you use the Metro/Modern
interface. Again, it's not necessary to use it. And the learning curve
isn't very difficult at all.


--
Ken Blake

[Ken Blake[_4_]]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:16:46 -0800, Todd > wrote:


> Had two customers speak to me this week about getting
> a new computer. Both had already heard about W8 and
> where seeking my advice on buying an Apple. They
> got the "M$ has won the applications war" lecture,
> but they did not care that there were virtually no
> programs out there for them to run.


Not at all true! There are essentially all the same applications that
were there in Windows 7, plus several others.


> W8 is (rightfully) perceived as difficult to use


Sorry to keep repeating myself, but that is simply *not* true. If you
use the desktop interface it's almost identical to Windows 7, and even
if you use the Metro interface, it's not very difficult.



--
Ken Blake

[Todd[_5_]]

On 01/16/2013 01:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:16:46 -0800, Todd > wrote:
>
>
>> Had two customers speak to me this week about getting
>> a new computer. Both had already heard about W8 and
>> where seeking my advice on buying an Apple. They
>> got the "M$ has won the applications war" lecture,
>> but they did not care that there were virtually no
>> programs out there for them to run.
>
>
> Not at all true! There are essentially all the same applications that
> were there in Windows 7, plus several others.

Hi Ken,

Perhaps I did not write that too well. I meant that the "Vast"
majority of applications out there are written for Windows. Hardly
anything is written for Apple or the Superior to both Linux. So,
if you want to use any of that stuff in the software store, you
have to use Windows. I did not mean that W7 programs would not
run on W8 (some may need some fine tuning).

So, the advice is, get an Apple if you only want to surf the
web or have some specialty graphics app that only runs in
Apple. Otherwise, you are stuck with Windows.

Just of interest, had one customer ask if I could
still do XP (I can).

>
>
>> W8 is (rightfully) perceived as difficult to use
>
>
> Sorry to keep repeating myself, but that is simply *not* true. If you
> use the desktop interface it's almost identical to Windows 7, and even
> if you use the Metro interface, it's not very difficult.

True that you can make it look like W7. Most folks would
not know about that. Better for a professional to learn both
ways.

-T

[Ken Blake[_4_]]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:51:39 -0800, Todd > wrote:

> On 01/16/2013 01:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> > On Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:16:46 -0800, Todd > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Had two customers speak to me this week about getting
> >> a new computer. Both had already heard about W8 and
> >> where seeking my advice on buying an Apple. They
> >> got the "M$ has won the applications war" lecture,
> >> but they did not care that there were virtually no
> >> programs out there for them to run.
> >
> >
> > Not at all true! There are essentially all the same applications that
> > were there in Windows 7, plus several others.
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> Perhaps I did not write that too well. I meant that the "Vast"
> majority of applications out there are written for Windows. Hardly
> anything is written for Apple or the Superior to both Linux. So,
> if you want to use any of that stuff in the software store, you
> have to use Windows. I did not mean that W7 programs would not
> run on W8 (some may need some fine tuning).


OK, thanks for the clarification.


> So, the advice is, get an Apple if you only want to surf the
> web or have some specialty graphics app that only runs in
> Apple.


Everybody makes his own choice, of course, but my view is that the
Apple choice is a bad one for almost everyone. That choice means that
you spend more money, both initially and for any needed repairs, and
you have a much smaller choice of available applications.


> Otherwise, you are stuck with Windows.


I would certainly not choose to use the phrase "stuck with." It's a
choice; it happens to be *my* choice, but we all have other choices.
Apple is just one of the other choices. Linux is another, and Android
running on a tablet is still another.


> Just of interest, had one customer ask if I could
> still do XP (I can).
>
> >
> >
> >> W8 is (rightfully) perceived as difficult to use
> >
> >
> > Sorry to keep repeating myself, but that is simply *not* true. If you
> > use the desktop interface it's almost identical to Windows 7, and even
> > if you use the Metro interface, it's not very difficult.
>
> True that you can make it look like W7. Most folks would
> not know about that.


True, and that's the point of what I said, and of many other messages
I've posted, here and elsewhere. I try to make people aware of what
their choices are.


> Better for a professional to learn both ways.


Of course, but be aware that the great majority of professionals
already know the desktop way.


--
Ken Blake

[..winston]

"Todd" wrote in message ...
>
So, the advice is, get an Apple if you only want to surf the
web or have some specialty graphics app that only runs in
Apple. Otherwise, you are stuck with Windows.

True that you can make it look like W7. Most folks would
not know about that. Better for a professional to learn both
ways.
>

Not entirely accurate.

There is not much one can't do on an Apple Mac that can be done on Windows.

A whole lot more can be done on an Apple iPad, iPhone, iPod than on any comparable Windows device.

There certainly is less 'Windows' software for Apple based hardware yet that doesn't necessarily mean the primary software people
use the most (Office type applications, Email, Browsing, Music, viewing/creating/downloading/editing Pictures and Video) is not
available for Apple hardware.

Though, one doesn't need to make Win8 like Win7 nor do they really need to know. Desktop installed applications on Windows 8 run
in Windows 8 desktop mode just like they did in Windows 7.

It is important to understand the difference and also counsel anyone accordingly. Anyone responsible or willing to provide support
(client-based or free) does need to be well versed on all fronts...especially considering that the majority of pc's purchased are
OEM based...those OEM's are not going to be offering Windows 7 forever.


--
....winston
msft mvp

[Todd[_5_]]

On 01/16/2013 04:24 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> Everybody makes his own choice, of course, but my view is that the
> Apple choice is a bad one for almost everyone. That choice means that
> you spend more money, both initially and for any needed repairs, and
> you have a much smaller choice of available applications.


Hi Ken,

Apple is only a bad choice due to the lack of applications. For
those who only want a status symbol or to do simple web surfing or
want to respond with one liners on their eMail, probably iPad would
be best: a business level computer is way over their heads.

But, if you need to get any real work done, you are stuck
with Windows. (I use the word "Stuck" because Windows is
of inferior quality to both Apple and Linux.)

-T

[Todd[_5_]]

On 01/16/2013 09:29 PM, ..winston wrote:
> Not entirely accurate.
>
> There is not much one can't do on an Apple Mac that can be done on Windows.

Hi Winson,

True but not true. The same can be said of Linux.
Here is a web site to help you find Apps for Linux:

http://linuxappfinder.com/

And, yes you have something for every need. Now just
try and get anyone to use them.

For instance: GnuCash is a cool substitute for both
QuickBooks and Quicken. Will anyone use it? No.
This is because they 1) want to be like everyone else,
2) just try and find an accountant (CPA) that understands
it. No QuickBooks file, no help from an accountant.

Okay, there is a QuickBooks for Apple, but it is awful.
And just try to find an accountant that knows how to
convert its format over to Windows.

Also look at LibreOffice. In my opinion, except for envelope
printing, a better product than M$ Office. Good luck trying
to get anyone to use it. It isn't Office and they want Office.
They want to be like everyone else.

Okay, iTunes. Apple screws with Wine (the Linux application
layer for Windows) so bad that iTunes will not and will never
work on Linux. Okay, there is substitutes for iTunes that
work okay if you don't want to buy tunes from the iTunes store
(Apple will make sure you will never be able to do that with
a Linux App..) The user sees it a defective. They want iTunes.

And on and on and on. In 18 years at this, I only have four
Linux workstation out there, not including this one. The
customer wants to run what everyone else runs. And that is
Windows. When they find out the restrictions, Linux and Apple
are out. Apple has a better shot at the App thing than
linux.

Oh yes, Apple has a cool Virtual Machine called
Parallels. It is actually pretty well done. But
that raises the question, if everything you want to
run runs in the virtual, just use the virtual as
your base machine and bypass the complications.

So, anything for a buck as long as it is moral, legal,
and ethical. If you want to pay me for it, I will
figure it out in a hell of a hurry. A computer is
a computer is a computer. (And I need to eat.)

-T

[..winston]

:)
The comment and response wasn't about Linux.

My point was for those using an Apple Device, few return them for a Windows machine
since they accomplish just about everything they need to do.

Learning curve, yes...productive once achieved. Certainly (and just like Windows)


--
....winston
msft mvp


"Todd" wrote in message ...

On 01/16/2013 09:29 PM, ..winston wrote:
> Not entirely accurate.
>
> There is not much one can't do on an Apple Mac that can be done on Windows.

Hi Winson,

True but not true. The same can be said of Linux.
Here is a web site to help you find Apps for Linux:

http://linuxappfinder.com/

And, yes you have something for every need. Now just
try and get anyone to use them.

For instance: GnuCash is a cool substitute for both
QuickBooks and Quicken. Will anyone use it? No.
This is because they 1) want to be like everyone else,
2) just try and find an accountant (CPA) that understands
it. No QuickBooks file, no help from an accountant.

Okay, there is a QuickBooks for Apple, but it is awful.
And just try to find an accountant that knows how to
convert its format over to Windows.

Also look at LibreOffice. In my opinion, except for envelope
printing, a better product than M$ Office. Good luck trying
to get anyone to use it. It isn't Office and they want Office.
They want to be like everyone else.

Okay, iTunes. Apple screws with Wine (the Linux application
layer for Windows) so bad that iTunes will not and will never
work on Linux. Okay, there is substitutes for iTunes that
work okay if you don't want to buy tunes from the iTunes store
(Apple will make sure you will never be able to do that with
a Linux App..) The user sees it a defective. They want iTunes.

And on and on and on. In 18 years at this, I only have four
Linux workstation out there, not including this one. The
customer wants to run what everyone else runs. And that is
Windows. When they find out the restrictions, Linux and Apple
are out. Apple has a better shot at the App thing than
linux.

Oh yes, Apple has a cool Virtual Machine called
Parallels. It is actually pretty well done. But
that raises the question, if everything you want to
run runs in the virtual, just use the virtual as
your base machine and bypass the complications.

So, anything for a buck as long as it is moral, legal,
and ethical. If you want to pay me for it, I will
figure it out in a hell of a hurry. A computer is
a computer is a computer. (And I need to eat.)

-T

[Todd[_5_]]

On 01/17/2013 09:18 PM, ..winston wrote:
> :)
> The comment and response wasn't about Linux.

Linux and Apple pretty much have the same problem. So
I wrote about Linux.

>
> My point was for those using an Apple Device, few return them for a
> Windows machine

True. The quality of Apple's OS and tech support is much
better than Microsoft's offering. M$ is much more about
market manipulations (sometime illegal ones too) than
about providing high quality products to their customers.
Vista and W8 are two of their latest marketing boondoggles.

Security: Job #236,354
Quality: Job #236,231
Marketing: Job #1

M$ is basically a huge marketing firm, with a considerable
software publishing capacity. They will go down in the
history of business as the company that managed to sell
"defective" ice makers to Eskimos.

When people leave M$, they seldom come back. You are
correct.

> since they accomplish just about everything they need to do.

Pretty much only home users. Business users get a VM such
as Parallels. In which case they are still running Windows,
only slower and on a much more expensive machine. Most home
user would do well with just an iPad.

> Learning curve, yes...productive once achieved. Certainly (and just like
> Windows)

An accounting firm I use to work with simply told Apple users
that they had to get a Windows machine to run Quick Books.
So, some come back. This is Microsoft's to loose and they
are not helping themselves very much.

Off this subject a bit: seems like I am the only guy that
works on Apples in the area that will actually fix a
problem. The rest wipe and reinstall. Have you noticed
this as well?

-T

[Juan Wei]

Todd has written on 1/17/2013 5:46 PM:
> On 01/16/2013 04:24 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> Everybody makes his own choice, of course, but my view is that the
>> Apple choice is a bad one for almost everyone. That choice means that
>> you spend more money, both initially and for any needed repairs, and
>> you have a much smaller choice of available applications.
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> Apple is only a bad choice due to the lack of applications. For
> those who only want a status symbol or to do simple web surfing or
> want to respond with one liners on their eMail, probably iPad would
> be best: a business level computer is way over their heads.
>
> But, if you need to get any real work done, you are stuck
> with Windows. (I use the word "Stuck" because Windows is
> of inferior quality to both Apple and Linux.)

I'm not an Apple supporter but you are pretty far off base! The number
of applications for Linux and/or MACOS that do the same things as
Windows applications are myriad!!

Granted, there are specialty programs in Windows that have not been
ported to any other OS, but that doesn't mean that one cannot find an
equivalent.

[Paul]

Todd wrote:
> On 01/16/2013 04:24 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> Everybody makes his own choice, of course, but my view is that the
>> Apple choice is a bad one for almost everyone. That choice means that
>> you spend more money, both initially and for any needed repairs, and
>> you have a much smaller choice of available applications.
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> Apple is only a bad choice due to the lack of applications. For
> those who only want a status symbol or to do simple web surfing or
> want to respond with one liners on their eMail, probably iPad would
> be best: a business level computer is way over their heads.
>
> But, if you need to get any real work done, you are stuck
> with Windows. (I use the word "Stuck" because Windows is
> of inferior quality to both Apple and Linux.)
>
> -T

I used to do desktop publishing from my old Mac.

If you have the money, you can find just about anything.
If you look hard enough.

For everything else, there's VirtualPC for Mac :-)

I even had a development environment for the Mac. That
would allow me to write my own code, if I ever needed to.

All it takes is money.

Paul

[Bob Henson[_2_]]

On 25/04/2013 6:28 PM, Juan Wei wrote:
> Todd has written on 1/17/2013 5:46 PM:
>> On 01/16/2013 04:24 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> Everybody makes his own choice, of course, but my view is that the
>>> Apple choice is a bad one for almost everyone. That choice means that
>>> you spend more money, both initially and for any needed repairs, and
>>> you have a much smaller choice of available applications.
>>
>>
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>> Apple is only a bad choice due to the lack of applications. For
>> those who only want a status symbol or to do simple web surfing or
>> want to respond with one liners on their eMail, probably iPad would
>> be best: a business level computer is way over their heads.
>>
>> But, if you need to get any real work done, you are stuck
>> with Windows. (I use the word "Stuck" because Windows is
>> of inferior quality to both Apple and Linux.)
>
> I'm not an Apple supporter but you are pretty far off base! The number
> of applications for Linux and/or MACOS that do the same things as
> Windows applications are myriad!!
>
> Granted, there are specialty programs in Windows that have not been
> ported to any other OS, but that doesn't mean that one cannot find an
> equivalent.
>

It does. There isn't a decent Video Editing suite for Ubuntu or Debian,
for one example. A good disk-mirroring backup program like Acronis? I
assume we are not talking about cutting edge games, or there are a vast
number with no Linux equivalent. Linux is very good for what it does,
but it doesn't do much.

--
Bob - Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK

Don't drink and drive - you'll spill most of it!

[Stef]

Bob Henson wrote:

> On 25/04/2013 6:28 PM, Juan Wei wrote:
>> Todd has written on 1/17/2013 5:46 PM:
>>> On 01/16/2013 04:24 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> Everybody makes his own choice, of course, but my view is that the
>>>> Apple choice is a bad one for almost everyone. That choice means that
>>>> you spend more money, both initially and for any needed repairs, and
>>>> you have a much smaller choice of available applications.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Ken,
>>>
>>> Apple is only a bad choice due to the lack of applications. For
>>> those who only want a status symbol or to do simple web surfing or
>>> want to respond with one liners on their eMail, probably iPad would
>>> be best: a business level computer is way over their heads.
>>>
>>> But, if you need to get any real work done, you are stuck
>>> with Windows. (I use the word "Stuck" because Windows is
>>> of inferior quality to both Apple and Linux.)
>>
>> I'm not an Apple supporter but you are pretty far off base! The number
>> of applications for Linux and/or MACOS that do the same things as
>> Windows applications are myriad!!
>>
>> Granted, there are specialty programs in Windows that have not been
>> ported to any other OS, but that doesn't mean that one cannot find an
>> equivalent.
>>
>
> It does. There isn't a decent Video Editing suite for Ubuntu or Debian,
> for one example. A good disk-mirroring backup program like Acronis? I
> assume we are not talking about cutting edge games, or there are a vast
> number with no Linux equivalent. Linux is very good for what it does,
> but it doesn't do much.
>

Just curious: What do you consider a "decent" video editing suite?
How would you rate Cinelerra? Or Lightworks?

As far as drive mirroring/backup, there are dozens of Linux apps that do
this. Clonezilla comes to mind. Of course, there's always the tried
and true dd for those not faint of heart. ;-)

Games? True. If you're a shoot 'em up gamer addict, Windows is the
only choice.

Actually, Linux does and can do quite a lot. I've been using it for
over a decade for my personal as well as business needs. I upgraded to
it from the Amiga around 2000. So, I guess I'm used to doing more with
less as I never went the DOS/Windows route with its plethora of
software even though I know how to use it, and more importantly, how to
fix it when it breaks which has become a nice little side business.

How long has it been since you've checked out Linux? It's been changing
fast and gaining more commercial support of late.

Stef

[Bob Henson[_2_]]

On 26/04/2013 6:45 PM, Stef wrote:
> Bob Henson wrote:
>
>
> Just curious: What do you consider a "decent" video editing suite?
> How would you rate Cinelerra? Or Lightworks?

I can't remember which ones I used - I tried everything I could find in
the repositories for Ubuntu and Debian and there was only one usable
program, and that was not up to much at all - no better than Windows own
rubbish editor.

>
> As far as drive mirroring/backup, there are dozens of Linux apps that do
> this. Clonezilla comes to mind. Of course, there's always the tried
> and true dd for those not faint of heart. ;-)

Clonezilla is poor and short on features. I can't remember what
particularly prevented me using it, but I seem to recall it wouldn't
work across my network. Remastersys was OK, but was limited as to which
kernel it would work with without a lot of juggling about - I had no
intentions of getting *that* deep into Linux! I finished up using an
Acronis rescue disk (Linux of course - it has its uses :-) ) and copying
the image across the network from my laptop to my Windows backup drive.

>
> Games? True. If you're a shoot 'em up gamer addict, Windows is the
> only choice.

I'm not a fanatical gamer, but it keeps me out of mischief and whiles
away the hours.

> Actually, Linux does and can do quite a lot. I've been using it for
> over a decade for my personal as well as business needs. I upgraded to
> it from the Amiga around 2000. So, I guess I'm used to doing more with
> less as I never went the DOS/Windows route with its plethora of
> software even though I know how to use it, and more importantly, how to
> fix it when it breaks which has become a nice little side business.
>
> How long has it been since you've checked out Linux? It's been changing
> fast and gaining more commercial support of late.
>

2011 into 2012. I have an old, slow laptop and I tried Linux Mint 9 on
it, and it improved it markedly - much faster than the XP I had on it. I
experimented with several distros into last year, Ubuntu itself, Debian
Stable and the newer versions, and a couple of others. I still have
Linux Mint 13 (Mint is by far the best distro) and Debian Stable running
under VirtualBox on my main system. However, at every turn it was not
able to cope with anything other than office software, e-mail and
browsing. When in hospital last year I was given a mobile dongle to call
out with, but it only ran under Windows, so I had to dual boot with
Windows 8 (the only free Windows :-)) Just for fun, I did get it to work
with Linux when I got home - but it took several days to do as the
software was either non-existent and/or rubbish.

The other problem was by the end of the 18 months or so that I spent
trying to get the latest release to function correctly, Linux had
changed to being nearly as clunky and slow, cumbersome as Windows as the
distros and their interfaces tried to get all trendy and work on the
current rash of toy computers and phones. I went back to Mint 9, but
finally gave up and bought Windows 7 for the laptop - and that's staying
there.

Anyway, despite having done a comparison, this is well off topic for
Windows 8 so I'll shut up .

--
Bob - Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK

Dyslexia lures, KO!

[John Doe]

Stef wrote:

> Bob Henson wrote:
>> Juan Wei wrote:
>>> Todd wrote:
>>>> Ken Blake wrote:

>>>>> Everybody makes his own choice, of course, but my view is
>>>>> that the Apple choice is a bad one for almost everyone. That
>>>>> choice means that you spend more money, both initially and
>>>>> for any needed repairs, and you have a much smaller choice
>>>>> of available applications.

>>>> Apple is only a bad choice due to the lack of applications.
>>>> For those who only want a status symbol or to do simple web
>>>> surfing or want to respond with one liners on their eMail,
>>>> probably iPad would be best: a business level computer is way
>>>> over their heads.
>>>>
>>>> But, if you need to get any real work done, you are stuck
>>>> with Windows. (I use the word "Stuck" because Windows is
>>>> of inferior quality to both Apple and Linux.)
>>>
>>> I'm not an Apple supporter but you are pretty far off base!
>>> The number of applications for Linux and/or MACOS that do the
>>> same things as Windows applications are myriad!!
>>>
>>> Granted, there are specialty programs in Windows that have not
>>> been ported to any other OS, but that doesn't mean that one
>>> cannot find an equivalent.

>> It does. There isn't a decent Video Editing suite for Ubuntu or
>> Debian, for one example. A good disk-mirroring backup program
>> like Acronis? I assume we are not talking about cutting edge
>> games, or there are a vast number with no Linux equivalent.
>> Linux is very good for what it does, but it doesn't do much.

> Just curious: What do you consider a "decent" video editing
> suite? How would you rate Cinelerra? Or Lightworks?
>
> As far as drive mirroring/backup, there are dozens of Linux apps
> that do this. Clonezilla comes to mind. Of course, there's
> always the tried and true dd for those not faint of heart. ;-)
>
> Games? True. If you're a shoot 'em up gamer addict, Windows is
> the only choice.

It's not just games, it's the vast majority of serious business
applications. Speech recognition like Dragon Naturally Speaking
for example. Many professionals depend on it. Computer aided
engineering/design and manufacturing for example. I think that
graphics design has already been mentioned.

Linux is a server operating system. If your applications are
limited, you can use it at home too. But the fact of the matter is
that the vast majority of serious business oriented users require
windows, professionals in the various fields. You don't have to
like it, but we're talking reality here.

> How long has it been since you've checked out Linux?

A few months ago. I'm up-to-date on Reality, too.

[Paul]

Stef wrote:
> Bob Henson wrote:
>
>> On 25/04/2013 6:28 PM, Juan Wei wrote:
>>> Todd has written on 1/17/2013 5:46 PM:
>>>> On 01/16/2013 04:24 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> Everybody makes his own choice, of course, but my view is that the
>>>>> Apple choice is a bad one for almost everyone. That choice means that
>>>>> you spend more money, both initially and for any needed repairs, and
>>>>> you have a much smaller choice of available applications.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ken,
>>>>
>>>> Apple is only a bad choice due to the lack of applications. For
>>>> those who only want a status symbol or to do simple web surfing or
>>>> want to respond with one liners on their eMail, probably iPad would
>>>> be best: a business level computer is way over their heads.
>>>>
>>>> But, if you need to get any real work done, you are stuck
>>>> with Windows. (I use the word "Stuck" because Windows is
>>>> of inferior quality to both Apple and Linux.)
>>> I'm not an Apple supporter but you are pretty far off base! The number
>>> of applications for Linux and/or MACOS that do the same things as
>>> Windows applications are myriad!!
>>>
>>> Granted, there are specialty programs in Windows that have not been
>>> ported to any other OS, but that doesn't mean that one cannot find an
>>> equivalent.
>>>
>> It does. There isn't a decent Video Editing suite for Ubuntu or Debian,
>> for one example. A good disk-mirroring backup program like Acronis? I
>> assume we are not talking about cutting edge games, or there are a vast
>> number with no Linux equivalent. Linux is very good for what it does,
>> but it doesn't do much.
>>
>
> Just curious: What do you consider a "decent" video editing suite?
> How would you rate Cinelerra? Or Lightworks?
>
> As far as drive mirroring/backup, there are dozens of Linux apps that do
> this. Clonezilla comes to mind. Of course, there's always the tried
> and true dd for those not faint of heart. ;-)
>
> Games? True. If you're a shoot 'em up gamer addict, Windows is the
> only choice.
>
> Actually, Linux does and can do quite a lot. I've been using it for
> over a decade for my personal as well as business needs. I upgraded to
> it from the Amiga around 2000. So, I guess I'm used to doing more with
> less as I never went the DOS/Windows route with its plethora of
> software even though I know how to use it, and more importantly, how to
> fix it when it breaks which has become a nice little side business.
>
> How long has it been since you've checked out Linux? It's been changing
> fast and gaining more commercial support of late.
>
> Stef
>

Why test it, when you can find a review.

http://lumiera.org/project/background/history/CinelerraWoes.html

That will save me having to write a couple pages of personal comments.

*******

And just for the record, Windows Movie Maker is equally a load of crap.
It won't crash, but it also won't do anything useful (that end users
might expect it to do).

So I'm an "equal opportunity hater" :-)

If you want to edit video, spend $99 on a commercial entry level editor,
and you might actually be able to finish a project, and burn a DVD. Software
is available for both Mac and Windows, that isn't crap.

Paul

[Stef]

Paul wrote:

> Stef wrote:

>>> [big snip]
>>
>> Just curious: What do you consider a "decent" video editing suite?
>> How would you rate Cinelerra? Or Lightworks?
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>
> Why test it, when you can find a review.
>
> http://lumiera.org/project/background/history/CinelerraWoes.html
>
> That will save me having to write a couple pages of personal comments.
>
> [snip]

The "review" is almost 6 years old. With the speed at which software
changes these days, it's ancient history.

Stef

[Stef]

John Doe wrote:

> Stef wrote:
>
>> [snip]
>
>> Just curious: What do you consider a "decent" video editing
>> suite? How would you rate Cinelerra? Or Lightworks?
>>
>> As far as drive mirroring/backup, there are dozens of Linux apps
>> that do this. Clonezilla comes to mind. Of course, there's
>> always the tried and true dd for those not faint of heart. ;-)
>>
>> Games? True. If you're a shoot 'em up gamer addict, Windows is
>> the only choice.
>
> It's not just games, it's the vast majority of serious business
> applications. Speech recognition like Dragon Naturally Speaking
> for example. Many professionals depend on it. Computer aided
> engineering/design and manufacturing for example. I think that
> graphics design has already been mentioned.

It has never been my argument ever that Linux is a replacement for
Windows. That is something Windows users assume when I bring up Linux.
Linux has its advanages and disadvantages. For that matter, so does
Windows. And OSX. There is no ONE OS that can truly do it all
regardless of what those overpaid, advertising copywriters say.

So, there is no need to defend Windows. At least, not as far as I'm
concerned. In fact, I have a copy of Windows XP SP3 (legal, of course)
running in a virtual machine on my main Linux box for those times when
I need Windows to do something that I can only do on Windows. Although
those times are becoming rarer and rarer.

> Linux is a server operating system. If your applications are
> limited, you can use it at home too. But the fact of the matter is
> that the vast majority of serious business oriented users require
> windows, professionals in the various fields. You don't have to
> like it, but we're talking reality here.

Yes, Linux can be a server OS, but it can also be a personal user
desktop system. It all depends on what tools you install and how you
configure it. FYI, you can have a single box be BOTH a server and a
user system at the same time without any conflicts.

It seems that more and more businesses, large and small, even
governments, are switching from Windows to Linux for their servers.
Microsoft is concerned. The Windows server numbers decline little by
little each year with Linux's rising incrementally by roughly the same
amount. And that's just servers.

In the tablet and smartphone arena, Microsoft and Windows are a
paltry--some say failing--third to iOS and Android (a LInux variant).

And that's the reality, too.


Stef

[Stef]

Bob Henson wrote:

> On 26/04/2013 6:45 PM, Stef wrote:
>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>
>>
>> Just curious: What do you consider a "decent" video editing suite?
>> How would you rate Cinelerra? Or Lightworks?
>
> I can't remember which ones I used - I tried everything I could find in
> the repositories for Ubuntu and Debian and there was only one usable
> program, and that was not up to much at all - no better than Windows own
> rubbish editor.

I don't think either app is in the repos. At least, they aren't for
Debian. I checked. You'd have to download them from their respective
web sites. Plus, Lightworks for Linux isn't even ready yet, but it is
for Windows.


>> As far as drive mirroring/backup, there are dozens of Linux apps that do
>> this. Clonezilla comes to mind. Of course, there's always the tried
>> and true dd for those not faint of heart. ;-)
>
> Clonezilla is poor and short on features. I can't remember what
> particularly prevented me using it, but I seem to recall it wouldn't
> work across my network. Remastersys was OK, but was limited as to which
> kernel it would work with without a lot of juggling about - I had no
> intentions of getting *that* deep into Linux! I finished up using an
> Acronis rescue disk (Linux of course - it has its uses :-) ) and copying
> the image across the network from my laptop to my Windows backup drive.

I usually use dd or rsync for cloning and backups, respectively. Yes,
they're command line only, but they're simple and fast, and work
easily across networks.

>>
>> How long has it been since you've checked out Linux? It's been changing
>> fast and gaining more commercial support of late.
>>
>
> 2011 into 2012. I have an old, slow laptop and I tried Linux Mint 9 on
> it, and it improved it markedly - much faster than the XP I had on it. I
> [snip]

One of Linux's strengths is it's "light" use of resources. Great for
breathing new life into an old machine that would otherwise be scrapped.

Guess, I've been off topic on this thread long enough, too.

Ciao!


Stef

[John Doe]

Stef <not this.address.com> wrote:

> John Doe wrote:
>> Stef wrote:
>>
>>> [snip]

>>> Games? True. If you're a shoot 'em up gamer addict, Windows
>>> is the only choice.
>>
>> It's not just games, it's the vast majority of serious business
>> applications. Speech recognition like Dragon Naturally Speaking
>> for example. Many professionals depend on it. Computer aided
>> engineering/design and manufacturing for example. I think that
>> graphics design has already been mentioned.
>
> It has never been my argument ever that Linux is a replacement
> for Windows. That is something Windows users assume when I bring
> up Linux.

Maybe because you repeat that idea over and over again, like you
are here. But in fact it isn't.

[Paul]

Stef wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>
>> Stef wrote:
>
>>>> [big snip]
>>> Just curious: What do you consider a "decent" video editing suite?
>>> How would you rate Cinelerra? Or Lightworks?
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>> Why test it, when you can find a review.
>>
>> http://lumiera.org/project/background/history/CinelerraWoes.html
>>
>> That will save me having to write a couple pages of personal comments.
>>
>> [snip]
>
> The "review" is almost 6 years old. With the speed at which software
> changes these days, it's ancient history.
>
> Stef

This is how far I got.

http://imageshack.us/a/img526/7987/trycinelerra.gif

Huffyuv is supposed to be in FFMPEG according to this.
So I don't know why it broke. Huffyuv is what comes from
my tuner card (used to provide a video sample for editing).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huffyuv

Paul

[Stef]

John Doe wrote:

> Stef <not this.address.com> wrote:
>
>> John Doe wrote:
>>> Stef wrote:
>>>
>>>> [snip]
>
>>>> Games? True. If you're a shoot 'em up gamer addict, Windows
>>>> is the only choice.
>>>
>>> It's not just games, it's the vast majority of serious business
>>> applications. Speech recognition like Dragon Naturally Speaking
>>> for example. Many professionals depend on it. Computer aided
>>> engineering/design and manufacturing for example. I think that
>>> graphics design has already been mentioned.
>>
>> It has never been my argument ever that Linux is a replacement
>> for Windows. That is something Windows users assume when I bring
>> up Linux.
>
> Maybe because you repeat that idea over and over again, like you
> are here. But in fact it isn't.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that I'm being honest?


Stef

[John Doe]

Stef <no this.address.com> wrote:

> John Doe wrote:
>> Stef <not this.address.com> wrote:
>>> John Doe wrote:
>>>> Stef wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> [snip]
>>
>>>>> Games? True. If you're a shoot 'em up gamer addict, Windows
>>>>> is the only choice.
>>>>
>>>> It's not just games, it's the vast majority of serious business
>>>> applications. Speech recognition like Dragon Naturally Speaking
>>>> for example. Many professionals depend on it. Computer aided
>>>> engineering/design and manufacturing for example. I think that
>>>> graphics design has already been mentioned.
>>>
>>> It has never been my argument ever that Linux is a replacement
>>> for Windows. That is something Windows users assume when I bring
>>> up Linux.
>>
>> Maybe because you repeat that idea over and over again, like you
>> are here. But in fact it isn't.
>
> Why is it so hard for you to accept that I'm being honest?

This is a technical help group for windows. If I wanted to help
people with linux, I would be in a technical help group for linux.












>
>
> Stef
>

[XS11E]

John Doe > wrote:

> This is a technical help group for windows. If I wanted to help
> people with linux, I would be in a technical help group for linux.

What he said!

Linux trolls aren't needed here.

--
XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project:
http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/

[John Doe]

XS11E <xs11eNO SPAMyahoo.com> wrote:

> John Doe <jdoe usenetlove.invalid> wrote:
>
>> This is a technical help group for windows. If I wanted to help
>> people with linux, I would be in a technical help group for
>> linux.
>
> What he said!
>
> Linux trolls aren't needed here.

It wouldn't be bad if they were the ones that helped somebody who
tried Linux with the expectation that it was going to do
"everything that windows does". But since they are not in a
Linux technical help group, that's not likely.

I have no problem discussing Linux, but it's frustrating to know
that the person selling Linux is mostly anonymous and won't be
around to help someone who tries Linux. Even if they were around,
the potential problems exceed any individual's ability.

But of course, the reason they're here is because they're like the
Maytag Repairman... "Nobody ever has problems with Linux, so
there's no need to be in a Linux technical help group" or
something like that.

[Stef]

John Doe wrote:

> Stef <no this.address.com> wrote:
>
>> John Doe wrote:
>>> Stef <not this.address.com> wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> It has never been my argument ever that Linux is a replacement
>>>> for Windows. That is something Windows users assume when I bring
>>>> up Linux.
>>>
>>> Maybe because you repeat that idea over and over again, like you
>>> are here. But in fact it isn't.
>>
>> Why is it so hard for you to accept that I'm being honest?
>
> This is a technical help group for windows. If I wanted to help
> people with linux, I would be in a technical help group for linux.

Actually, I am here (and have been since this group started) solely to
learn about W8, warts and all, from those who actually use it. Other
than playing with it in stores, I have no experience with it, and don't
have or service any systems running it. I don't even know anyone
who's running it. But I have clients who casually ask about it, and I
need to stay somewhat informed.

In that regard, when part of this thread went OT regarding Linux that
someone else, not me, rudely or sarcastically proffered, I ask one of
the respondents to expand on his preferences of Windows over Linux,
which he had used and was knowlegeable of. He politely answered my
query--it was a polite inquiry--to my satisfaction, and that would have
been the end of it, if you hadn't barged in with accusations. So be
it. Water over the dam.

I rarely post here. I think my initial reply in this thread was the
second time. But I will continue to monitor this group, and every
once-in-a-while I may ask a question or two. I may even disagree. But
just because I prefer Linux for my personal use, doesn't make me an
outcast here no matter what you purport.

Stef

[Gene E. Bloch[_2_]]

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 21:45:29 +0000 (UTC), Stef wrote:

> John Doe wrote:
>
>> Stef <no this.address.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John Doe wrote:
>>>> Stef <not this.address.com> wrote:
>>>> [snip]
>>>>>
>>>>> It has never been my argument ever that Linux is a replacement
>>>>> for Windows. That is something Windows users assume when I bring
>>>>> up Linux.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe because you repeat that idea over and over again, like you
>>>> are here. But in fact it isn't.
>>>
>>> Why is it so hard for you to accept that I'm being honest?
>>
>> This is a technical help group for windows. If I wanted to help
>> people with linux, I would be in a technical help group for linux.
>
> Actually, I am here (and have been since this group started) solely to
> learn about W8, warts and all, from those who actually use it. Other
> than playing with it in stores, I have no experience with it, and don't
> have or service any systems running it. I don't even know anyone
> who's running it. But I have clients who casually ask about it, and I
> need to stay somewhat informed.
>
> In that regard, when part of this thread went OT regarding Linux that
> someone else, not me, rudely or sarcastically proffered, I ask one of
> the respondents to expand on his preferences of Windows over Linux,
> which he had used and was knowlegeable of. He politely answered my
> query--it was a polite inquiry--to my satisfaction, and that would have
> been the end of it, if you hadn't barged in with accusations. So be
> it. Water over the dam.
>
> I rarely post here. I think my initial reply in this thread was the
> second time. But I will continue to monitor this group, and every
> once-in-a-while I may ask a question or two. I may even disagree. But
> just because I prefer Linux for my personal use, doesn't make me an
> outcast here no matter what you purport.
>
> Stef

My opinion: your posts were never out of line. FWIW.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

[John Doe]

The accusation that I "barged in with accusations" is obviously
bull****.

I don't really even mind someone discussing linux in a windows
group. Its general operating system stuff. What I do mind is
people who tout linux as if it's a replacement for windows.
Wouldn't be so bad if it were in a linux help group. But it isn't.
It's here telling everybody how wonderful linux is, in a group
that it won't have to help anybody with all of their linux
problems. It's disingenuous and annoying.

--
Stef <not this.address.com> wrote:

> Path: eternal-september.org!mx05.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
> From: Stef <not this.address.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-8
> Subject: Re: Windows 8's classic interface?
> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 21:45:29 +0000 (UTC)
> Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
> Lines: 43
> Message-ID: <klmplp$ol5$1 speranza.aioe.org>
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> NNTP-Posting-Host: RWS7OofFM93jkA1n33lUeg.user.speranza.aioe.org
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Complaints-To: abuse aioe.org
> User-Agent: XPN/1.2.6 (Street Spirit ; Linux)
> X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2
> Xref: mx05.eternal-september.org alt.comp.os.windows-8:4386
>
> John Doe wrote:
>
>> Stef <no this.address.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John Doe wrote:
>>>> Stef <not this.address.com> wrote:
>>>> [snip]
>>>>>
>>>>> It has never been my argument ever that Linux is a replacement
>>>>> for Windows. That is something Windows users assume when I bring
>>>>> up Linux.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe because you repeat that idea over and over again, like you
>>>> are here. But in fact it isn't.
>>>
>>> Why is it so hard for you to accept that I'm being honest?
>>
>> This is a technical help group for windows. If I wanted to help
>> people with linux, I would be in a technical help group for linux.
>
> Actually, I am here (and have been since this group started) solely to
> learn about W8, warts and all, from those who actually use it. Other
> than playing with it in stores, I have no experience with it, and don't
> have or service any systems running it. I don't even know anyone
> who's running it. But I have clients who casually ask about it, and I
> need to stay somewhat informed.
>
> In that regard, when part of this thread went OT regarding Linux that
> someone else, not me, rudely or sarcastically proffered, I ask one of
> the respondents to expand on his preferences of Windows over Linux,
> which he had used and was knowlegeable of. He politely answered my
> query--it was a polite inquiry--to my satisfaction, and that would have
> been the end of it, if you hadn't barged in with accusations. So be
> it. Water over the dam.
>
> I rarely post here. I think my initial reply in this thread was the
> second time. But I will continue to monitor this group, and every
> once-in-a-while I may ask a question or two. I may even disagree. But
> just because I prefer Linux for my personal use, doesn't make me an
> outcast here no matter what you purport.
>
> Stef
>
>

[XS11E]

"Gene E. Bloch" > wrote:

> My opinion: your posts were never out of line. FWIW.

That might be my opinion also but I'll have to clear it with SWMBO.

--
XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project:
http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/

[Gene E. Bloch[_2_]]

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 20:17:29 -0700, XS11E wrote:

> "Gene E. Bloch" > wrote:
>
>> My opinion: your posts were never out of line. FWIW.
>
> That might be my opinion also but I'll have to clear it with SWMBO.

Let me know if I might be of any assistance.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

[Stef]

Gene E. Bloch wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 21:45:29 +0000 (UTC), Stef wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> My opinion: your posts were never out of line. FWIW.

Thanks.

Stef

[XS11E]

"Gene E. Bloch" > wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 20:17:29 -0700, XS11E wrote:
>
>> "Gene E. Bloch" > wrote:
>>
>>> My opinion: your posts were never out of line. FWIW.
>>
>> That might be my opinion also but I'll have to clear it with SWMBO.
>
> Let me know if I might be of any assistance.

Sorry, she's prettier! ;-)


--
XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project:
http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/

[John Doe]

Stef <not this.address.com> wrote:

....

Stefan Patric?
I was just checking to see whether you offer technical help in Linux
discussion groups.

[John Doe]

"Gene E. Bloch" <not-me other.invalid> wrote:

> Stef wrote:

>> Stef
>
> My opinion: your posts were never out of line. FWIW.

Her deck is bigger than yours...

[Stef]

John Doe wrote:

> Stef <not this.address.com> wrote:
>
>
> Stefan Patric?
> I was just checking to see whether you offer technical help in Linux
> discussion groups.

I do. As well as in several Windows XP groups.

Stef

[Gene E. Bloch[_2_]]

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 20:53:26 -0700, XS11E wrote:

> "Gene E. Bloch" > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 20:17:29 -0700, XS11E wrote:
>>
>>> "Gene E. Bloch" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> My opinion: your posts were never out of line. FWIW.
>>>
>>> That might be my opinion also but I'll have to clear it with SWMBO.
>>
>> Let me know if I might be of any assistance.
>
> Sorry, she's prettier! ;-)

Thanks - my first good laugh of the day (and it's already lunchtime)!

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)