Heads Up. Shutdown is not shutdown in W8

[Todd[_5_]]

Hi All,

Just a heads up. Shutdown is not shutdown. It is actually
log off and hibernate. Reboot is the same. So good luck
trying to get into BIOS or trying to get some device drivers
to activate or trying to unscramble a screwed up OS.

This is the marketing guys at M$ telling the engineers that
W8 takes too long to shutdown and/or start up. Bad
idea. Should have given the user both options: hard
shutdown and log off and hibernate.

To do an actual shutdown, open a command prompt and
enter

shutdown /s

Then hold your breath. It won't give you an indication
that anything is happening for about 20 seconds.

This was the only way I got a customer's Ethernet card
to see her Ethernet cable. Never did figure out the
magic keystrokes to get into BIOS (new HP laptop).
Got every other thing: diagnostics, recovery, yada,
yada, yada. Got so ****ed at W8 that I tried to
boot into a Linux Live CD, but could not get into BIOS
to make it boot from her DVD first. But, her Ethernet
card started working after a hard boot, so I got
away with it.

-T

[Paul]

Todd wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Just a heads up. Shutdown is not shutdown. It is actually
> log off and hibernate. Reboot is the same. So good luck
> trying to get into BIOS or trying to get some device drivers
> to activate or trying to unscramble a screwed up OS.
>
> This is the marketing guys at M$ telling the engineers that
> W8 takes too long to shutdown and/or start up. Bad
> idea. Should have given the user both options: hard
> shutdown and log off and hibernate.
>
> To do an actual shutdown, open a command prompt and
> enter
>
> shutdown /s
>
> Then hold your breath. It won't give you an indication
> that anything is happening for about 20 seconds.
>
> This was the only way I got a customer's Ethernet card
> to see her Ethernet cable. Never did figure out the
> magic keystrokes to get into BIOS (new HP laptop).
> Got every other thing: diagnostics, recovery, yada,
> yada, yada. Got so ****ed at W8 that I tried to
> boot into a Linux Live CD, but could not get into BIOS
> to make it boot from her DVD first. But, her Ethernet
> card started working after a hard boot, so I got
> away with it.
>
> -T

I run my Windows 8 with

powercfg -h off

Makes getting to the BIOS easier.

Other info here.

http://superuser.com/questions/499458/why-are-start-up-times-faster-on-windows-8

HTH,
Paul

[Auric__]

Todd wrote:

> This is the marketing guys at M$ telling the engineers that
> W8 takes too long to shutdown and/or start up. Bad
> idea. Should have given the user both options: hard
> shutdown and log off and hibernate.

If I tell the computer to shut down, I expect it to *SHUT DOWN*, not go into
low power mode. Once it's done shutting down, I usually turn the power bar
off, so just going into standby would be... bad.

--
They'll vomit blood.
-- Fitz (98 KUPD)

[Andy Burns[_2_]]

Auric__ wrote:

> Todd wrote:
>
>> This is the marketing guys at M$ telling the engineers that
>> W8 takes too long to shutdown and/or start up. Bad
>> idea. Should have given the user both options: hard
>> shutdown and log off and hibernate.
>
> If I tell the computer to shut down, I expect it to *SHUT DOWN*, not go into
> low power mode. Once it's done shutting down, I usually turn the power bar
> off, so just going into standby would be... bad.

Hibernate isn't a low power mode, it's zero power mode, after hybrid
shutdown you're perfectly free to turn the power-bar off with no ill
effects.

[Auric__]

Andy Burns wrote:

> Auric__ wrote:
>
>> Todd wrote:
>>
>>> This is the marketing guys at M$ telling the engineers that
>>> W8 takes too long to shutdown and/or start up. Bad
>>> idea. Should have given the user both options: hard
>>> shutdown and log off and hibernate.
>>
>> If I tell the computer to shut down, I expect it to *SHUT DOWN*, not go
>> into low power mode. Once it's done shutting down, I usually turn the
>> power bar off, so just going into standby would be... bad.
>
> Hibernate isn't a low power mode, it's zero power mode, after hybrid
> shutdown you're perfectly free to turn the power-bar off with no ill
> effects.

Ah, my bad. My brain hid the word "hibernate" from me.

Still, I don't want hibernate to be the default poweroff thing either. (If I
*want* hibernation, I will *select* hibernation.)

--
It's all going to be written off anyway.
It's not like I own any of this stuff.

[Andy Burns[_2_]]

Auric__ wrote:

> Still, I don't want hibernate to be the default poweroff thing either. (If I
> *want* hibernation, I will *select* hibernation.)

They hybrid shutdown saves 5 seconds at boot on my laptop, I haven't
timed how much (if any) it saves on shutdown, unfortunately I had to
disable hybrid shutdown as it makes the machine unreliable at doing the
final power-off, not good when the machine is going to get stuffed into
a laptop bag .. but odd given that actual hibernate works 100% on the
same machine.

I have found a MS article on debugging the issue, but not bothered to go
through it yet for the sake of 5 seconds.

[Todd[_5_]]

On 01/13/2013 11:40 PM, Todd wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Just a heads up. Shutdown is not shutdown. It is actually
> log off and hibernate. Reboot is the same. So good luck
> trying to get into BIOS or trying to get some device drivers
> to activate or trying to unscramble a screwed up OS.
>
> This is the marketing guys at M$ telling the engineers that
> W8 takes too long to shutdown and/or start up. Bad
> idea. Should have given the user both options: hard
> shutdown and log off and hibernate.
>
> To do an actual shutdown, open a command prompt and
> enter
>
> shutdown /s
>
> Then hold your breath. It won't give you an indication
> that anything is happening for about 20 seconds.
>
> This was the only way I got a customer's Ethernet card
> to see her Ethernet cable. Never did figure out the
> magic keystrokes to get into BIOS (new HP laptop).
> Got every other thing: diagnostics, recovery, yada,
> yada, yada. Got so ****ed at W8 that I tried to
> boot into a Linux Live CD, but could not get into BIOS
> to make it boot from her DVD first. But, her Ethernet
> card started working after a hard boot, so I got
> away with it.
>
> -T


My notes on how to change the behavior:

-T


Disable fast startup via the Shutdown settings in Win8's Power
Options menu. Open the Win8 Control Panel and click Hardware and
Sound/Power Options/System Settings. Scroll to the bottom of the
dialog box and deselect Turn On Fast Startup

[Todd[_5_]]

> My notes on how to change the behavior:
>
> -T
>
>
> Disable fast startup via the Shutdown settings in Win8's Power
> Options menu. Open the Win8 Control Panel and click Hardware and
> Sound/Power Options/System Settings. Scroll to the bottom of the
> dialog box and deselect Turn On Fast Startup
>

Oh, don't go doing this too fast. See my next post on
"Heads up: when off isn't off, it will wake up to do updates"

-T

[Gene E. Bloch[_2_]]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 23:40:54 -0800, Todd wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Just a heads up. Shutdown is not shutdown. It is actually
> log off and hibernate. Reboot is the same. So good luck
> trying to get into BIOS or trying to get some device drivers
> to activate or trying to unscramble a screwed up OS.
>
> This is the marketing guys at M$ telling the engineers that
> W8 takes too long to shutdown and/or start up. Bad
> idea. Should have given the user both options: hard
> shutdown and log off and hibernate.
>
> To do an actual shutdown, open a command prompt and
> enter
>
> shutdown /s
>
> Then hold your breath. It won't give you an indication
> that anything is happening for about 20 seconds.
>
> This was the only way I got a customer's Ethernet card
> to see her Ethernet cable. Never did figure out the
> magic keystrokes to get into BIOS (new HP laptop).
> Got every other thing: diagnostics, recovery, yada,
> yada, yada. Got so ****ed at W8 that I tried to
> boot into a Linux Live CD, but could not get into BIOS
> to make it boot from her DVD first. But, her Ethernet
> card started working after a hard boot, so I got
> away with it.
>
> -T

When I restart my Windows 8 computer I have no trouble pressing F2 to
get into the BIOS setup, and I have done nothing to configure shutdown
on that box.

My main problem is that the settings screen is pretty limited on the
cheap Dell that I have.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

[..winston]

Shutdown works fine here from the Modern UI logon screen and the desktop (Alt F4 Shutdown) with no problems whatsoever accessing
the Bios on restart on desktop or laptop (both running Win8 Pro)

--
....winston
msft mvp


"Todd" wrote in message ...

Hi All,

Just a heads up. Shutdown is not shutdown. It is actually
log off and hibernate. Reboot is the same. So good luck
trying to get into BIOS or trying to get some device drivers
to activate or trying to unscramble a screwed up OS.

This is the marketing guys at M$ telling the engineers that
W8 takes too long to shutdown and/or start up. Bad
idea. Should have given the user both options: hard
shutdown and log off and hibernate.

To do an actual shutdown, open a command prompt and
enter

shutdown /s

Then hold your breath. It won't give you an indication
that anything is happening for about 20 seconds.

This was the only way I got a customer's Ethernet card
to see her Ethernet cable. Never did figure out the
magic keystrokes to get into BIOS (new HP laptop).
Got every other thing: diagnostics, recovery, yada,
yada, yada. Got so ****ed at W8 that I tried to
boot into a Linux Live CD, but could not get into BIOS
to make it boot from her DVD first. But, her Ethernet
card started working after a hard boot, so I got
away with it.

-T

[Oh Yeah]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:04:48 -0500, "..winston" >
wrote:

>Shutdown works fine here from the Modern UI logon screen and the desktop (Alt F4 Shutdown) with no problems whatsoever accessing
>the Bios on restart on desktop or laptop (both running Win8 Pro)

Yeah, mine shuts down by default also. Win8 Pro x64.

[Todd[_5_]]

On 01/14/2013 02:39 PM, Oh Yeah wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:04:48 -0500, "..winston" >
> wrote:
>
>> Shutdown works fine here from the Modern UI logon screen and the desktop (Alt F4 Shutdown) with no problems whatsoever accessing
>> the Bios on restart on desktop or laptop (both running Win8 Pro)
>
> Yeah, mine shuts down by default also. Win8 Pro x64.
>

Is your "Turn On Fast Startup" unclicked? This would
be an OEM modification. Interesting.

[..winston]

"Todd" wrote in message ...

>
Is your "Turn On Fast Startup" unclicked? This would
be an OEM modification. Interesting.
>

If you are referring to 'Turn on Fast Startup' being checked or unchecked....it's not an OEM modification, it is a Windows feature.

Its' also not entirely Hibernation...more appropriately it’s a hybrid shutdown (partial hibernate) that saves only the kernel
session and device drivers to the hiberfil.sys file on disk instead of closing it when you shut down your PC (also the reason why
Fast Startup doesn't apply to a Restart since it requires a full Shutdown).

For Fast Startup to function Hibernate does need to be enabled. If not enabled the Fast Shutdown option is not present in 'Control
Panel\Power Options\System Settings\<Shutdown Options>

Fast Startup for a full shutdown, as you've noted earlier, can be disabled by unchecking 'Turn on fast startup' in the 'Shutdown
Options'.

Optionally, some folks prefer to just disable (or enable) Hibernate via an elevated command prompt. To disable or enable Hibernate
via an admin command prompt:
1. Open a command prompt in elevated mode (Rt Click Command Prompt and choose Run As Administrator)
2. Enter the appropriate command
powercfg -h off
or
powercfg -h on

For what its worth...the difference for me on an Intel i3 Laptop/6GB Win8 Pro from a Power button start (after Shutdown) with or
without Fast Shutdown when Hibernate is disabled or enabled is a whopping 7 seconds (6 seconds vs. 13 seconds).
- Also (at least for me) neither changes the allotted time (about 2-3 sec) available to press F2 to access the BIOS.

I'm also not seeing any wake-up (ever) with or without Fast Startup enabled...though iirc the primary contributors to that
occurring are:
1. PC bios configured to wake on lan (when the option is available)
and/or
2. Automatic maintenance (Action Center/Maintenance/Automatic Maintenance/<Allow scheduled maintenance to wake up my computer>
**Note: My Win8 is configured to run maintenance during daylight hours (9 am) and the majority of time circa 9 am, I'm usually
doing other things (making coffee/breakfast, reading the newspaper) thus rarely impacted or subject to 'Windows interference'.

We're all learning from each other...with a whole lot more knowledge being brought to the table daily.


--
....winston
msft mvp

[Todd[_5_]]

On 01/15/2013 12:04 AM, ..winston wrote:
>
> "Todd" wrote in message ...
>
>>
> Is your "Turn On Fast Startup" unclicked? This would
> be an OEM modification. Interesting.
>>
>
> If you are referring to 'Turn on Fast Startup' being checked or
> unchecked....it's not an OEM modification, it is a Windows feature.
>
> Its' also not entirely Hibernation...more appropriately it’s a hybrid
> shutdown (partial hibernate) that saves only the kernel session and
> device drivers to the hiberfil.sys file on disk instead of closing it
> when you shut down your PC (also the reason why Fast Startup doesn't
> apply to a Restart since it requires a full Shutdown).
>
> For Fast Startup to function Hibernate does need to be enabled. If not
> enabled the Fast Shutdown option is not present in 'Control Panel\Power
> Options\System Settings\<Shutdown Options>
>
> Fast Startup for a full shutdown, as you've noted earlier, can be
> disabled by unchecking 'Turn on fast startup' in the 'Shutdown Options'.
>
> Optionally, some folks prefer to just disable (or enable) Hibernate via
> an elevated command prompt. To disable or enable Hibernate via an admin
> command prompt:
> 1. Open a command prompt in elevated mode (Rt Click Command Prompt and
> choose Run As Administrator)
> 2. Enter the appropriate command
> powercfg -h off
> or
> powercfg -h on
>
> For what its worth...the difference for me on an Intel i3 Laptop/6GB
> Win8 Pro from a Power button start (after Shutdown) with or without Fast
> Shutdown when Hibernate is disabled or enabled is a whopping 7 seconds
> (6 seconds vs. 13 seconds).
> - Also (at least for me) neither changes the allotted time (about 2-3
> sec) available to press F2 to access the BIOS.
>
> I'm also not seeing any wake-up (ever) with or without Fast Startup
> enabled...though iirc the primary contributors to that occurring are:
> 1. PC bios configured to wake on lan (when the option is available)
> and/or
> 2. Automatic maintenance (Action Center/Maintenance/Automatic
> Maintenance/<Allow scheduled maintenance to wake up my computer>
> **Note: My Win8 is configured to run maintenance during daylight hours
> (9 am) and the majority of time circa 9 am, I'm usually doing other
> things (making coffee/breakfast, reading the newspaper) thus rarely
> impacted or subject to 'Windows interference'.
>
> We're all learning from each other...with a whole lot more knowledge
> being brought to the table daily.

Hi Winston,

Cool. Thank you. I will be writing this stuff down in my keepers.

-T