O.T. Computer Cleaning Maintenance: [Archive]

Paul

July 7th 15, 08:09 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I have a Dell XPS 8500, with Windows 7 Professional, SP1,
> with Spywareblaster, SuperAntispyware, Avast, Malwarebytes,
> Malwarebyte AntiExploit, Windows Defender and Windows
> firewall. .
>
> (1) TB HD
> Intel (R) Core (TM) i7-33-3770 CPU @ 3.40 GHz 3.40 GHz
> Ram 12.0 GB
> System type : 64-bit operating system
>
> I also have
>
> I have a Dell Dimension 8200 with XP, SP3,
> with Spywareblaster, SuperAntispyware, Avast, Malwarebytes,
> Windows Defender and Windows firewall.
>
> Seagate Barracuda 7200 160 Gb HD
> Intel (R) Pentium (R) 4 CPU 1.80 GHz
> Ram 1.79 GHz, 1.00 GB of RAM
> System type : 32-bit operating system
>
> and a
>
> Seagate Backup Plus 1TB 2.5" USB 3.0 external HD (for both
> computers)
>
>
> I've noticed I've used allot of my HD on the 8500 (317 GB)
> and while that still leaves 589 GB free it still concerns me.
>
> Whereas on the 8200 I have 27.6 Used and 100GB free. (its
> main purpose is a backup to the 8500)
>
> I've run disk cleaner and defragmenter on both computers and have
> been thinking of going through and deleting unnecessary files/folders
> but would CcCleaner but good to use also for deleting unwanted programs
> and files? I have no idea about the settings though?
>
> Any other advice would be appreciated. I realize that at some point I'll
> need to invest in an external HD to transfer/store files to keep the 8500
> as clean as possible.
>
> Thanks
> Robert

You can use WinDirStat to visually identify large files. If you
click on them, you can get "Properties".

This is the download site.

http://www.fosshub.com/WinDirStat.html

The download page looks like this. You have to scroll down a bit
to see the actual project data. The Download link is just that
four word phrase, and isn't in a larger font or anything.

WinDirStat

This software runs on Microsoft Windows XP Vista 7 and 8

Download WinDirStat Windows Installer - 630.59 KB | version: 1.1.2 | Screenshot | MD5/SHA1
--------

I cannot directly link to the file, which is why I have
to draw you a little picture. There is an advertisement right
underneath the Download link. They don't allow direct linking, so you'll
have to look at the advertisement underneath the Download link.

windirstat1_1_2_setup.exe
645,729 bytes
MD5sum = 3abf1c149873e25d4e266225fbf37cbf
SHA1sum = 6fa92dd2ca691c11dfbfc0a239e34369897a7fab

The information site is here. And basically this is just another
version of SequoiaView (a university project).

http://windirstat.info/

If there are any obviously big files, the size of the colored rectangle
will stand out. And the lines of text above the diagram, also give
a strong hint as to what is eating the space.

Paul

Paul

July 7th 15, 09:52 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> In passing, some of you may have noticed
> that I put a 160GB HD and then lower down
> I noted its usage as 27.6 Used and 100GB free,
> giving a total of 127GB.
>
> A tech friend explained that when the
> 8200 was built they didn't envision 160GB
> hard drives then so when I upgraded it with
> the Seagate 160GB HD it truncated it to
> 127GB.
>
> That's how he explained it to me.
>
> Robert

The OS did the truncation for safety. The
hardware might not have provided any advice
at the time.

You can get some information from this
archived article.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070121085230/http://www.seagate.com/support/kb/disc/tp/137gb.pdf

At the time, this KB article was referenced, but
the originally written article wasn't all that
good. The current version is a bit better, but
still leaves a lot to the imagination. The reason
for setting this registry setting, is to give the
OS permission to make partitions outside the allowed
space.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/303013

What's interesting about the problem, is that
not all disk interface types are affected. You'll
notice that your 1TB USB drive didn't break, and
it doesn't have that issue. If the 8200 had a
SCSI interface (my first computer had one of those),
that's a different cabling standard than IDE, and
it is also transparent to the issue. The SCSI
standard kept evolving to support larger and
larger CDB (command/data block formats).

What I can tell you, is the "127GB" state your
160GB drive is in right now, is "perfectly safe".
No harm can come to you. If you attempted to harvest
the extra space on the disk (and I think it *is*
possible to do it), you have to be careful to never
put WinXP Gold ancient OS version back on the thing
as your C:. As then the extended disk can become
corrupted.

I ran a Win2K box that way for about a year. I ran
the box in "dangerous" mode, and every time I did
something OS related, fooled around with disk partitioning,
I had to carefully review the rules for dealing
with that issue. And I managed to get through a year
of that, without breaking anything :-)

You have sufficient materials on hand, to do all the
necessary experiments (safely). Why ? Because you
have your backup drive, your Macrium boot CD, and you
can keep a copy of the 8200 hard drive, safely tucked
away for emergencies. So you can attempt to do all the
necessary work, to get a few more GB of space. I only
recommend this if you're bored, and need a project :-)

Paul

Ammammata

July 7th 15, 02:06 PM

Il giorno Tue 07 Jul 2015 05:36:16a, *Mark Twain* inviava su
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio news:630cddaa-e91f-4136-
. Vediamo cosa scrisse:

> I have a Dell XPS 8500, with Windows 7 Professional, SP1,
> with Spywareblaster, SuperAntispyware, Avast, Malwarebytes,
> Malwarebyte AntiExploit, Windows Defender and Windows
> firewall. .
>
> I also have
>
> I have a Dell Dimension 8200 with XP, SP3,
> with Spywareblaster, SuperAntispyware, Avast, Malwarebytes,
> Windows Defender and Windows firewall.
>

I have a laptop, an old core 2, with a couple of gb of ram and an ssd 120gb
I haven't any of those programs you are running to keep your computers safe
& running (LOL)
my laptop boots in 9-10 seconds and shuts down in about three
I'm not using windows

are you sure you really need to maintain such a waste of computing
resources?

--
/-\ /\/\ /\/\ /-\ /\/\ /\/\ /-\ T /-\
-=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- - -=-
>>>>> http://www.bb2002.it :) <<<<<
............ [ al lavoro ] ...........

Henry[_4_]

July 7th 15, 07:38 PM

You might try deleting the temp file. Do this by starting run and typing in
%temp% to get to the temp file.

You can safely delete all of the temp files there. I would guess you have a
lot of them.

Mark Twain wrote:

> I have a Dell XPS 8500, with Windows 7 Professional, SP1,
> with Spywareblaster, SuperAntispyware, Avast, Malwarebytes,
> Malwarebyte AntiExploit, Windows Defender and Windows
> firewall. .
>
> (1) TB HD
> Intel (R) Core (TM) i7-33-3770 CPU @ 3.40 GHz 3.40 GHz
> Ram 12.0 GB
> System type : 64-bit operating system
>
> I also have
>
> I have a Dell Dimension 8200 with XP, SP3,
> with Spywareblaster, SuperAntispyware, Avast, Malwarebytes,
> Windows Defender and Windows firewall.
>
> Seagate Barracuda 7200 160 Gb HD
> Intel (R) Pentium (R) 4 CPU 1.80 GHz
> Ram 1.79 GHz, 1.00 GB of RAM
> System type : 32-bit operating system
>
> and a
>
> Seagate Backup Plus 1TB 2.5" USB 3.0 external HD (for both
> computers)
>
>
> I've noticed I've used allot of my HD on the 8500 (317 GB)
> and while that still leaves 589 GB free it still concerns me.
>
> Whereas on the 8200 I have 27.6 Used and 100GB free. (its
> main purpose is a backup to the 8500)
>
> I've run disk cleaner and defragmenter on both computers and have
> been thinking of going through and deleting unnecessary files/folders
> but would CcCleaner but good to use also for deleting unwanted programs
> and files? I have no idea about the settings though?
>
> Any other advice would be appreciated. I realize that at some point I'll
> need to invest in an external HD to transfer/store files to keep the 8500
> as clean as possible.
>
> Thanks
> Robert

Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]

July 7th 15, 08:24 PM

On Tue, 07 Jul 2015 13:38:49 -0500, Henry > wrote:

> You might try deleting the temp file. Do this by starting run and typing in
> %temp% to get to the temp file.

Temp file? Do you mean temp *folder*? Please don't mix up files and
folders; they are two different things.

> You can safely delete all of the temp files there.

That's almost always true, but note that there are some program
installations which work in two steps. The first step concludes by
writing temporary files and rebooting. The second step starts
automatically after rebooting and needs to find those files there (and
then deletes them when it's done).

Other than doing it automatically when rebooting (that would interfere
with installations like the kind I described), it's always safe to
delete the contents of the temp folder. Because it's safe to delete
any temp files that aren't open and in use by an application, and
since Windows won't let you delete open files, it's safe to (try to)
delete them at any time. If any fail to delete because they're open,
they'll either be deleted automatically when the app using them
closes, or you'll get them the next time you delete manually.

Some people may suggest that you reboot before deleting anything, but
that's not necessary, for the reason described above (on the other
hand, it doesn't hurt to do it).

Henry[_4_]

July 7th 15, 09:46 PM

Of course I meant folder. Sometimes I get writing faster than I think :-)

Henry

Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Jul 2015 13:38:49 -0500, Henry > wrote:
>
>
>>You might try deleting the temp file. Do this by starting run and typing in
>> %temp% to get to the temp file.
>
>
>
> Temp file? Do you mean temp *folder*? Please don't mix up files and
> folders; they are two different things.
>
>
>
>
>>You can safely delete all of the temp files there.
>
>
>
> That's almost always true, but note that there are some program
> installations which work in two steps. The first step concludes by
> writing temporary files and rebooting. The second step starts
> automatically after rebooting and needs to find those files there (and
> then deletes them when it's done).
>
> Other than doing it automatically when rebooting (that would interfere
> with installations like the kind I described), it's always safe to
> delete the contents of the temp folder. Because it's safe to delete
> any temp files that aren't open and in use by an application, and
> since Windows won't let you delete open files, it's safe to (try to)
> delete them at any time. If any fail to delete because they're open,
> they'll either be deleted automatically when the app using them
> closes, or you'll get them the next time you delete manually.
>
> Some people may suggest that you reboot before deleting anything, but
> that's not necessary, for the reason described above (on the other
> hand, it doesn't hurt to do it).

Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]

July 7th 15, 10:32 PM

On Tue, 07 Jul 2015 15:46:42 -0500, Henry > wrote:

> Of course I meant folder. Sometimes I get writing faster than I think :-)

OK, glad it was just a brain fart, and you understand the difference.

>
> Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 07 Jul 2015 13:38:49 -0500, Henry > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>You might try deleting the temp file. Do this by starting run and typing in
> >> %temp% to get to the temp file.
> >
> >
> >
> > Temp file? Do you mean temp *folder*? Please don't mix up files and
> > folders; they are two different things.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>You can safely delete all of the temp files there.
> >
> >
> >
> > That's almost always true, but note that there are some program
> > installations which work in two steps. The first step concludes by
> > writing temporary files and rebooting. The second step starts
> > automatically after rebooting and needs to find those files there (and
> > then deletes them when it's done).
> >
> > Other than doing it automatically when rebooting (that would interfere
> > with installations like the kind I described), it's always safe to
> > delete the contents of the temp folder. Because it's safe to delete
> > any temp files that aren't open and in use by an application, and
> > since Windows won't let you delete open files, it's safe to (try to)
> > delete them at any time. If any fail to delete because they're open,
> > they'll either be deleted automatically when the app using them
> > closes, or you'll get them the next time you delete manually.
> >
> > Some people may suggest that you reboot before deleting anything, but
> > that's not necessary, for the reason described above (on the other
> > hand, it doesn't hurt to do it).

Mark Twain

July 8th 15, 12:04 AM

Hello Paul,

I'll read what you've given me but
I know this has nothing to do with
this post but an issue has come up
with the 8200.

When I press the power button it
seems to start normally and all the
lights are green but the screen
doesn't come on.

I haven't done anything to the computer
or changed anything and just used it
last night.

At present the power light button is on
but the indicator light flickers on/off.
The ABCD lights are all green and both
fans turning.

Suggestions?

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain

July 8th 15, 12:06 AM

p.s. Now the indicator light is out
but all other lights are green.

p.s.s. I doubt this matters but I've
also tried inserting a CD to force the
open but nothing.

Robert

Mark Twain

July 8th 15, 12:22 AM

The programs I have in place are from
suggestions from this site not my own.

If Paul or Ken thought I had too much
or something was not needed they would
have mentioned it long ago.

Robert

Mark Twain

July 8th 15, 12:27 AM

Hello Paul,

I downloaded/installed and ran WinDirStat.
that screen sure is wild looking but it let
me where the bulk was.

I also read the link on the truncation,.
interesting.

Thanks,
Robert

Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]

July 8th 15, 01:01 AM

On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 16:22:22 -0700 (PDT), Mark Twain
> wrote:

>
>
> The programs I have in place are from
> suggestions from this site not my own.
>
> If Paul or Ken thought I had too much
> or something was not needed they would
> have mentioned it long ago.

I never think anyone has too much. Despite what many people tell you,
you should be concerned, not with how *many* of these programs you
run, but *which*. Some of them can hurt performance severely, but
others have no effect on performance.

Mark Twain

July 8th 15, 01:08 AM

Regarding the 8200; it did crash last night with
a irrecoverable error but it came back and I
restarted it to make sure everything was OK and ran
scans.

Could it be that my video card has gone bad?

Robert

Paul

July 8th 15, 01:16 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> p.s. Now the indicator light is out
> but all other lights are green.
>
> p.s.s. I doubt this matters but I've
> also tried inserting a CD to force the
> open but nothing.
>
> Robert
>

I hope you've checked the cabling to the
monitor. Did something fall off ?

Paul

Paul

July 8th 15, 01:24 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Regarding the 8200; it did crash last night with
> a irrecoverable error but it came back and I
> restarted it to make sure everything was OK and ran
> scans.
>
> Could it be that my video card has gone bad?
>
> Robert
>
>

You can do a quick visual inspection inside if you
want, but you're probably going to need a set of
trained eyes to look at it.

Someone who has spare video cards, power supplies
and so on.

It's funny that the debug LEDs are all green,
which suggests the BIOS is happy with the hardware,
but your copy of Windows is kablooie. Maybe the file
system is corrupted, the registry has a problem etc.

I would be booting with my Linux LiveCD right now, if
I could get the optical drive tray open. Just to see
if Linux will boot OK or not.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 8th 15, 01:42 AM

The monitor cable plugs in then its screwed in
on both sides but yes I checked and everything
seems connected. I even thought I may have
inadvertently turned the monitor off so pressed
the power button just to make sure

Robert

Mark Twain

July 8th 15, 02:09 AM

I tried to boot with a Linux CD a friend
made for me a few years ago and nothing
happened. Same symptoms.

Robert

Mark Twain

July 8th 15, 02:12 AM

Should I then load the original XP disks
and start over?

Robert

Paul

July 8th 15, 03:25 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Should I then load the original XP disks
> and start over?
>
> Robert

I wouldn't do that just yet.

Remember that you also have a Macrium CD.
It is a bootable CD. You don't even have
to do anything in there, for a quick test.

One thing the Macrium may do, when it
starts running, is it will scan the disk(s)
in the machine, to see what file systems are
present. Because, you can actually run
backups from that CD. I've done backup
operations (imaging) from the Macrium CD.

It sounds to me like your monitor isn't responding.
But you're in a better position to judge whether
you think a monitor that refused to display the
screen, could be responsible. On my monitors here, the
LED on the monitor turns yellow when there is no signal,
and the presence of the yellow LED tells me the monitor
has a working power source. If all LEDs on the monitor
stayed dark, I would assume a power problem with the
monitor. Either the cable is loose, or isn't
firmly seated in the power bar. I've had at least
one occasion on my other computer, where the
monitor power cable (which plugs in from the bottom),
managed to work itself loose from the socket.

While a monitor backlight could fail to come on,
usually there are symptoms of monitor problems
in advance, to tell you it's going to happen
in a couple weeks.

You know all the quirks, and I can only guess at
what is going on from this end.

If you backed up the 8200, you could also do a
restore from backup. But if the Macrium boot CD
won't "light up the screen" either, then it's going
to be pretty hard to work on the hard drive. I want
to see some light come from the monitor first, before
contemplating working on the hard drive.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 8th 15, 04:03 AM

You answered everything I was going to say
i.e. CD disk we just made and the backup on
the external hd.

The Indicator on the Monitor shows yellow,
so there's a power source.

I think what I will try is disconnecting
everything and then re-connect everything
and see if that does anything. I'll let
you know.

Robert

Mark Twain

July 8th 15, 04:20 AM

I disconnected everything from the
rear of the computer although I didn't
disconnect the cables from the monitor.

After I had disconnected everything the
floating Dell Self Feature Test appeared
on the monitor with red,green,blue and
white bars.

I reconnected everything but it's still
the same.

Robert

Mark Twain

July 8th 15, 09:55 AM

Hello Paul,

I took some pics to show you the 8200
since I couldn't take screenshots. It
may be difficult to see the lights in some

http://i57.tinypic.com/29lzrqf.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/1j2owj.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/kcm9tk.jpg

Robert

Paul

July 8th 15, 01:55 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Hello Paul,
>
> I took some pics to show you the 8200
> since I couldn't take screenshots. It
> may be difficult to see the lights in some
>
> http://i57.tinypic.com/29lzrqf.jpg
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/1j2owj.jpg
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/kcm9tk.jpg
>
> Robert
>
>

All I can say at this point, is the green indicators
for the diagnostic status, suggest the BIOS loaded
the LEDs, and as far as the BIOS is concerned the
machine is OK. But such a status doesn't verify the
video card output side. The BIOS cannot tell whether
the video card VGA output is good, the cable is good,
the monitor functions correctly and so on.

You can swap monitors, or test the 8200 monitor on
an output of the 8500. So that's one way to determine
the monitor and video cable are working.

If you suspected the video card, you'd need a stock of
replacement or test cards to swap in. For example, I have
one PCI video card for test purposes, some left over
AGP ones, but for PCI Express, I don't have an excess of
those. So I'd have to swap between computers if I needed
a PCI Express test card. The PCI card is the one I rely
on as a universal donor, since my systems here all have
a PCI slot. There are some modern computers that are
pure PCI Express, so my parts bin isn't as ready to
provide test materials for something like that.

In terms of failure modes, the most likely way for a
video card to fail, is via cooling failure. If the
cooling fan on a video card fails, the GPU overheats
and that finishes it off. Sometimes, you see colored blocks
or other geometric objects on the screen, as the RAM
connected to the GPU, coughs up garbage. Those are
hints there is a problem.

And that's why, one of the observation things, is to
check that the video card fan still spins when the
power is on. As that tells you whether a cooling
failure could be the source of the problem.

If there was a power problem (bad power supply), you
would think the BIOS would get stuck somewhere, and
the diagnostic LED pattern would be different. Now
because the BIOS actually checks the power, but because
the BIOS might detect some POST test not working right
if the power quality was marginal.

In terms of general diagnostic approaches:

1) Remove excess hardware, in the hope that the removed
item prevents system function. Usually, there isn't a
lot of stuff which isn't essential to computer operation.

2) Beep tests. Remove items like video card or RAM, and
see if the machine beeps an error code. Which helps
prove the CPU and BIOS code are working.

But based on your symptoms right now, I'd be swapping
a video card. Or doing something so I can see the BIOS
screen. Or doing a beep test, just to verify the green
diagnostic LEDs are not a fluke of nature. The video card
is likely to be AGP, just based on the vintage. The chipset
on the 8200 (RAMBus), might pre-date Northbridge built-in
GPU designs.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 8th 15, 07:43 PM

So what are my options at this point?

Should I try swapping screens with the 8500
(just unplug on and plug in the other).

How do I do a beep test?

Is there anything else you recommend?

If the monitor isn't working than the rescue
disk and backup and original disks are useless.

Robert

Mark Twain

July 8th 15, 07:49 PM

I would like to have as little as possible
on my computer but I've gotten virus and malware
previously and these programs are in place
to prevent it from happening again.

If Paul or Ken thought it was overkill they
would have said so but in fact many of these
programs came from suggestions from them.

As I understand it, Linux based systems are pretty
much virus/malware free like Mac computers so its
not a compatible comparison.

Robert

Mark Twain

July 8th 15, 08:59 PM

I tried loading the Seagate Sea Tools disc
but nothing happened. I still have all my
original disks if that helps and Nero, and
the Linex CD.

This is what the Linex CD he gave me is used for:
He gave me instructions on how to answer each
prompt to wipe the old partitioning info off the
HD, regardless of what operating system was
originally on it.

He gave me this to clean another Seagate 160 GB HD
I have and I believe I still have the original 40GB
HD by Westgate? However, I think the other 160 is bad.

I switched the monitors with the 8500 and the 8200
monitor came up fine with no problems.

So it's the 8200 itself. The video card?

As I said the top fan sometimes needs a nudge
but more and more its been starting on its
own.

If you can point me to a video card I can
purchase it and install it. Otherwise, what
else might it be? Motherboard corrupted?
Software corrupted?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 8th 15, 09:49 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I would like to have as little as possible
> on my computer but I've gotten virus and malware
> previously and these programs are in place
> to prevent it from happening again.
>
> If Paul or Ken thought it was overkill they
> would have said so but in fact many of these
> programs came from suggestions from them.
>
> As I understand it, Linux based systems are pretty
> much virus/malware free like Mac computers so its
> not a compatible comparison.
>
> Robert

I think your setup is just fine.

That's my opinion.

*******

Safe hex as a security approach requires considerable
effort, and comes with no guarantees.

I don't think it's a fair tradeoff in this case.

There's no point to being tipped over, again and again,
by malware and adware. Let the tools do the work. The 8500
has an excess of horsepower, so that part of it is not
an issue. The 8200 on the other hand, having too much
junk running on there, probably saps a bit of
its energy, as it's a single core CPU. But I'd still
keep it locked down, as it's then less work to fix later.

Paul

Paul

July 8th 15, 10:27 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I tried loading the Seagate Sea Tools disc
> but nothing happened. I still have all my
> original disks if that helps and Nero, and
> the Linex CD.
>
> This is what the Linex CD he gave me is used for:
> He gave me instructions on how to answer each
> prompt to wipe the old partitioning info off the
> HD, regardless of what operating system was
> originally on it.
>
> He gave me this to clean another Seagate 160 GB HD
> I have and I believe I still have the original 40GB
> HD by Westgate? However, I think the other 160 is bad.
>
> I switched the monitors with the 8500 and the 8200
> monitor came up fine with no problems.
>
> So it's the 8200 itself. The video card?
>
> As I said the top fan sometimes needs a nudge
> but more and more its been starting on its
> own.
>
> If you can point me to a video card I can
> purchase it and install it. Otherwise, what
> else might it be? Motherboard corrupted?
> Software corrupted?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

I'm trying to be mindful of your budget here.

I don't recommend buying a lot of hardware,
unless it will not cause a hardship, and you
are likely to use the hardware later. Take
my spare video cards for example. They've seen
many uses over the years, and since they were
bought when the AGP format was younger, there
were plenty of years left for them to see usage.

At this point in time, AGP cards are getting harder
to find. And you can't use such a card in your 8500,
which is likely to have a PCI Express x16 video card.

I would recommend visiting a local computer recycler
if you know of one. Ask for a card that is known
good - tell them what you intend to do with it.
Most of the cards they'll have, will be $50 to $100
stuff, rather than having a pile of $500 gamer cards.
And that's great, as then the card won't use more than
about 35W of electricity. The idea is, to get a
card for $10 to $20. An ideal card would be something
like an FX5200 (with cooling fan), as those
span all the way from Win98 to Win7 on drivers.
There is no driver for one of those for Win8 or Win10.

And the card does not have to be AGP. A video
card with PCI interface, would also work. But,
if you get the AGP, that could serve as a permanent
replacement. I only use PCI based video cards for
short term usage, because they are slow as molasses
in winter. They serve as a display in an emergency
(like when flashing the VESA BIOS chip on your
"good" video card). But other than that, my PCI
card stays in the box. Most of the time the PCI
card is OK, but if you have a QuickTime movie
open, and you attempt to drag the window across
the desktop, it "stutters like a *******". And
I don't particularly like that :-)

Card types:

PCI 133MB/sec max

AGP 266MB/sec "1X card"
2128MB/sec "8X card"

PCI Express 4000MB/sec PCI Express x16 Rev.2
8000MB/sec PCI Express x16 Rev.3
250MB/sec PCI Express x1 Rev.2

You can see the PCI is pretty slow. But it does
make a great card "just to see the screen in the
BIOS" or for "a quick debug run". But not as
a permanent video card.

*******

This article will help you with AGP compatibility.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/agpcompat/agp.html

Your 8200 could use an 850 or an 850E Northbridge.
From the Playtool table...

Intel 850 AGP 1.5V Motherboard

Using a row out of the upper table, it works with
virtually everything I would want to own as an AGP
video card. So that's a good sign.

AGP 1.5V Motherboard Won't fit in slot Works at 1.5V Works at 1.5V Works at 1.5V Works at 1.5V

Only an AGP 3.3V card won't fit. The socket will have the notch
on the 1.5V end. See the picture. Your 8200 will either be
the second one down. Or it could be the bottom one. The
bottom one is AGP Pro, and the extra pins just carry more
power.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/agpcompat/agpslots.gif

The idea of the keying (voltage) plug, is it checks for compatible
cards.

If you use this picture as a reference, you *don't* want
the middle card. Both the left and right cards, have a
slot for 1.5V. And that means the left and right cards
fit. The right-hand card is "universal" type.

You also should not have a problem with slot power.
Slot power issues (3.3V) were present in the P3 era
or so. I do not expect a problem with that aspect.

So the job is reasonably simple.

If you absolutely must waste good money on this,

EVGA 512-A8-N403-RX GeForce 6200 512MB 64-Bit DDR2 AGP 4X/8X Factory Refurbished $26
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130635

A 6200 is a reasonable cross-generation card. That one
has universal keying.

The refurbished sometimes means, these are new cards
used for warranty replacement work. I got a similar
card in my current computer, and saved a bit of money
on it. What I don't like on that card, is it is
convection cooled. If your computer case seems to
have decent airflow, that might work for you.
I've had mixed results with cards cooled that
way. One ran just fine. The other became unstable
only when playing a computer game, but was
otherwise OK. When I buy cards like that now,
I mount a case cooling fan next to the card, inside
the computer case. And no, you *cannot* buy an
easy-peasy mounting bracket for this - you must
descend to your basement shop and *make* one.

For the rest on Newegg, they want too much money.
The $25 card will work fine, for your debugging work.
If it runs too hot for some reason, then you're going
to need to become a mechanical engineer and set up a
cooler next to it :-)

This is the custom cooler for my newest machine.
The yellow thing in the center of the picture, is
a leg that holds up the CPU cooler (which is a heavy
piece of metal). The fan is relatively hard to make
out in that picture. It's an 80mm fan. The three wire
cable runs off to a motherboard fan header. The nylon
ties go through the holes on the fan plastic body, and
hold the fan to the metal support. The cheap
video card is just above the fan assembly.

http://i62.tinypic.com/slpamc.jpg

Have fun,
Paul

Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]

July 9th 15, 01:18 AM

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 11:49:34 -0700 (PDT), Mark Twain
> wrote:

> As I understand it, Linux based systems are pretty
> much virus/malware free like Mac computers so its
> not a compatible comparison.

Not true. Neither Linux not Macintosh computers are malware free.
Because both have fewer users, and malware writers target the most
popular systems, there may be a somewhat lower risk of infection. But
in both cases, the risk is far from zero

Mark Twain

July 9th 15, 02:00 AM

I read all the good information given and went
with the 6200 video card and have ordered it.

Since I never had a direct video card fan before
this should work ok.

I did see the fan on your video card by the
way. Is this why some cool their system by
water and oil? To keep them cool versus fans?

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain

July 9th 15, 02:01 AM

I stand corrected Ken

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain

July 9th 15, 02:05 AM

I just saw that the 6200 is for 64bit
so does that mean I just bought the wrong
card for the 8200?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130635

Robert

Paul

July 9th 15, 02:53 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I just saw that the 6200 is for 64bit
> so does that mean I just bought the wrong
> card for the 8200?
>
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130635
>
> Robert

The 64-bit in this case, refers to the
connection between video card RAM and GPU.
There is a 16 bit connection from each RAM
chip (RAM data bus) to the GPU. That 6200 card
has four RAM chips on it.

+-----------------------------------+
| |
| RAM RAM RAM RAM |
| Chip#1 Chip#2 Chip#3 Chip#4 |
| | | | | |
| | | / / |
| | \ / / |
| +----------GPU--------+ |
| |
+-----------------------------------+

For fanbois this is a measure of how "powerful"
the card is. A high end card is "384", while weak
cards are "64". The number of data bits in the bus,
times the bus frequency, gives "raw bandwidth"
for the GPU to look up stuff. The faster the
connection to RAM, the faster the GPU can
do texture related stuff for gaming.

And fortunately, it has no effect on whether the
OS is 32 bit or 64 bit. Either kind of OS is
sufficient. All it takes is drivers to make
the card work well.

The card will work fine. Carry on :-)

Paul

Mark Twain

July 9th 15, 03:53 AM

Understood,

I'll let you know when I
have it installed.

In the meantime is there
anything I can or should do?

Robert

Mark Twain

July 9th 15, 04:21 AM

Once we get the 8200 up and running again
would you recommend upgrading the RAM?

If so, could you make a suggestion/links? I
remember putting in two RAM chips in a long
time ago and I believe I'm at 50% max at present
but would like to max it out as much as possible.

Maybe replace the other two with (4) 'better'
ones or if there's no difference then just (2) new
ones.

Thoughts/suggestions?

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain

July 9th 15, 04:27 AM

I went through my pictures of the 8200
to locate the card and to see if there would
be any problems before installation.

After seeing your fan setup it looks like there's
a fan on the lower card which has the yellow
plug (stereo).

http://i58.tinypic.com/10x4r9k.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/30t6ziu.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/2aenihg.jpg

Robert

Paul

July 9th 15, 05:09 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Once we get the 8200 up and running again
> would you recommend upgrading the RAM?
>
>
> If so, could you make a suggestion/links? I
> remember putting in two RAM chips in a long
> time ago and I believe I'm at 50% max at present
> but would like to max it out as much as possible.
>
> Maybe replace the other two with (4) 'better'
> ones or if there's no difference then just (2) new
> ones.
>
> Thoughts/suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

I don't know what the price runs for that stuff now.

As for useful RAM, 512MB is a big tight for WinXP.
You can run maybe three applications at once, with
a little luck. Depending on the vintage of
web browser used though, 512MB doesn't go too far
there.

I would think 1GB would be "enough" RAM under
normal circumstances. I used to play 3D games
with that much. Whereas 512MB was just a bit
too tight for that to work.

There are two types of RAMBUS RAM. And one
of them was weird, in that the memory chips
are in a serial chain. And when the chain of
chips gets to a certain magic length, you can't
have any more. That equates to 16 chips on one
DIMM and 8 chips on the other, for a total of
24 chips. Something like this.

Channel0 Channel1
| |
Double-sided Double-sided
16 chip DIMM 16 chip DIMM
| |
Single-sided Single-sided
8 chip DIMM 8 chip DIMM

There is also a deal about something
called a CRIMM. There must be "continuity"
in the chain of chips. If you have two
slots occupied out of four slots,
the remaining two slots get funny looking
PCB cards, and they just wire the serial bus
connections through the slot. You want to
save those cards, in case they are ever needed
again.

The other kind of RAMBUS ram, is a "32 bit module"
or something. Apparently, the chain of chips in that
case, is entirely contained on one module. So no
continuity is required. I don't think there is a
chain limit either.

The DIMMs get "hot spots". When you access the memory
in the 8200, a single chip draws up to 4 watts. If
you hammer the same memory location over and over
again, just the one chip is doing all the work, and
the other chips are relatively quiet. As a result
of this funny behavior, the heat spreaders on the
memory modules are *riveted* into place. The metal
on the outside of the DIMM (over top of the chips),
is an essential part of heatsinking them. The metal
surface helps spread the heat. Normal memory patterns
don't "focus" on one chip for too long, so if you're
web surfing, the module is relatively uniformly heated.
But with enough care in a lab experiment, you can make
a "hot spot" on it. So the rivets are there, to prevent
you from removing the cooling solution, and allowing
a single chip to overheat.

Regular DIMM technologies, all the memory chips
are exactly as warm as their neighbor, and they
all do equal amounts of work. The entire module
might average 2W, compared to a RAMBUS chip going
to 4W worst case. And that's why you'll find the
memory in the 8500, might not even have a metal
cooling surface on it. I probably have equal numbers
of DIMMs here, with metal coolers, and ones without,
as the metal cooler really isn't required. But on the
RAMBUS stuff, yes, it's a requirement.

Anyway, before you get carried away, check what is
in there already. If you go to Control Panels,
and use the System control panel, down at the
bottom it may mention how much memory it thinks
is present at the moment.

You could have an 850 Northbridge or an 850E
Northbridge, and I think the RAM type is
different on the respective motherboards. There
may have been two different motherboards for
the 8200, so I have to couch my advice with
respect to not being sure what you've got.

And yes, picking RAM for RAMBUS boards is "loads
of fun" :-) But I bet you suspected that already.
There was one guy on the net who knew this
product inside out, but he's no longer available
to answer questions.

Paul

Paul

July 9th 15, 05:34 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I went through my pictures of the 8200
> to locate the card and to see if there would
> be any problems before installation.
>
> After seeing your fan setup it looks like there's
> a fan on the lower card which has the yellow
> plug (stereo).
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/10x4r9k.jpg
>
> http://i57.tinypic.com/30t6ziu.jpg
>
> http://i62.tinypic.com/2aenihg.jpg
>
> Robert
>

Cards from top to bottom:

1) Video card
2) Sound card with joystick point (15 pin DSUB, 4 audio)
3) Winmodem ? I see an audio cable running from this
card, to what could be Aux on the sound card.
4) NIC card
5) Empty slot

Your machine uses a kind of bus extension - riser card,
and slots 4 and 5 are on the lower PCB assembly. I don't
think that has special properties in this case, but that
is purely a guess on my part. Some riser cards have
bus select issues.

If I was working on the machine, I would probably have to use a
horizontal airflow, rather than blowing air onto the
"face" of the card. You could move the sound card down to
slot five, but I expect Windows would want you to reinstall
the sound card driver package if you did that. It may not
be clever enough to "just work" if you move it. Moving
the sound card down to slot 5, would be for the purpose
of making more room for a video card cooling solution.

1) Video card <--- Could blow air in this direction
2) <--- if the card needs cooling...
3) Winmodem ? I see an audio cable running from this
card, to what could be Aux on the sound card.
4) NIC card
5) Sound card with joystick point (15 pin DSUB, 4 audio)

*******

And you don't need to move anything, for your very first
test. It'll be OK to just run the new video card in slot
one, while you check for a BIOS screen.

To evaluate how much cooling the card needs, you can
use GPU-Z and get a temperature reading off the card
when it arrives. That's assuming Windows starts OK.
Normally, you would remove the old video card driver,
install the new video card, then install the new video
card driver. (Remember to unplug the computer, before
physically inserting the new card.) But doing a clean
driver operation won't be possible in this case,
so it'll just be a "hope for the best" installation.
You have to install a video card driver, to get the
screen to work at full resolution (bigger than 640x480
or 800x600 resolution).

This is GPU-Z. The "Sensor" tab at the top of the
dialog box, will show the video card temperature.
If it hits 90C, that's too hot for comfort (doesn't
leave any room for gaming or 3D operations). A convection
cooled card could easily hit 65C, and that
would be fine. If it was 90C, then I'd be planning
my cooling project :-)

http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/SysInfo/GPU-Z/

TechPowerUp GPU-Z v0.8.4 Jun 25, 2015 1.7 MB

You can try clicking this link, and see if it gives
you a file. I don't know if you can hot-link to this
or not. If this link doesn't work, use the other link
and "navigate" to the download. While this link
looks like it might work, I can't be sure.

http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/2506/techpowerup-gpu-z-v0-8-4/start?server=6

HTH,
Paul

Mark Twain

July 9th 15, 07:17 AM

From what you say I'm good to go as is. So
no need to mess with the RAM.

I should have explained the pictures were not
recent. The 5th slot is where I just installed
the PCI card with the (4) USB ports so it's not
available.

Since the previous video card worked there's
no reason why this shouldn't although I
understand you reasoning for cooling it as
much as possible.

If there's a real need for cooling after downloading
Techpowerup (the bottom link worked), I suppose
I could remove the Sound Card (I can always put
it back)since I don't have any speakers connected
(I used them for the 8500) and I could put a blank
plate in place.

Can I just disconnect the wires and leave them or
will this affect the NIC card's performance?

Robert

Paul

July 9th 15, 09:11 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> From what you say I'm good to go as is. So
> no need to mess with the RAM.
>
> I should have explained the pictures were not
> recent. The 5th slot is where I just installed
> the PCI card with the (4) USB ports so it's not
> available.
>
> Since the previous video card worked there's
> no reason why this shouldn't although I
> understand you reasoning for cooling it as
> much as possible.
>
> If there's a real need for cooling after downloading
> Techpowerup (the bottom link worked), I suppose
> I could remove the Sound Card (I can always put
> it back)since I don't have any speakers connected
> (I used them for the 8500) and I could put a blank
> plate in place.
>
> Can I just disconnect the wires and leave them or
> will this affect the NIC card's performance?
>
> Robert

To me, one of the cards looks like a dialup modem.
Do you still use dialup networking ?
Maybe that card could be removed and the
sound card could stay.

Or, you could remove both the dialup modem
and the sound card. The NIC, USB2, and video,
are pretty valuable. I like having the sound,
just for alert sounds. The dialup modem, there
aren't many opportunities to use those any more.
There is still a FreeNet dialup here, but it's
not free :-) It's like $30 a year or so.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 9th 15, 10:27 AM

I use Ethernet, and installed a new card a
few years ago when I was on malwarebytes
forum. I didn't even think of the dial-up
card. That's the third card down that looks
like it has a fan (modem) on it.

I could remove both the sound and dial-up
cards to improve performance but I have only
(1) cover tab for the back. I suppose I could
make something up. If I do remove both just
unplug the wires and maybe label them and
zip tie them together?

I can still keep the cards and re-install
later if I need to. However will this affect
the NIC card?

In passing, I found these while looking around
and have (2) of each.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2rw43t3.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/b3lkeb.jpg

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 9th 15, 12:03 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I use Ethernet, and installed a new card a
> few years ago when I was on malwarebytes
> forum. I didn't even think of the dial-up
> card. That's the third card down that looks
> like it has a fan (modem) on it.
>
> I could remove both the sound and dial-up
> cards to improve performance but I have only
> (1) cover tab for the back. I suppose I could
> make something up. If I do remove both just
> unplug the wires and maybe label them and
> zip tie them together?
>
> I can still keep the cards and re-install
> later if I need to. However will this affect
> the NIC card?
>
>
> In passing, I found these while looking around
> and have (2) of each.
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/2rw43t3.jpg
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/b3lkeb.jpg
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

Regarding the cards, removing them remains
an option, if you need room for a cooling solution.
You can make up labels for the wires, as appropriate,
so you can put everything back if need be.

I like to put cards in antistatic bags, at least
until taking them to a recycler. I keep the bags
then, because I can use them for holding more
junk (safely).

The NIC should not be affected by adjacent card changes.
It and the USB card should still work.

Leaving one slot cover open shouldn't hurt anything.
You can always cut up some thin cardboard, and make
a cover if you want (just for airflow). Depending on how the
fans are set up, there is even a possibility that the main
fan could pull cool air through the open slot cover, and
give a "draft" blowing over the video card :-)

The main thing to watch on slot covers, is make sure
they're not shorting to anything on the motherboard end.
Any time I look in there, it always looks deceptively close...

*******

Your statement about what's in your junk pile,
tells you that "something better is now
inside the computer". Those two 128MB modules
and two CRIMM (continuity) cards, would have
been the original stuff from the machine. Since
four items were removed, that means you have
four modules already in the computer. The
slots are full. Since you tossed 128MB modules,
that means the modules in the computer are
likely to be at least 256MB. So you might
already have 256MB * 4 for all I know, or
1GB of RAM. Which is a good amount for WinXP.
There's several things that might require more
RAM.

1) Photoshop. You can never have enough RAM or
fast scratch storage for Photoshop.
2) Virtual Machines (running more than one
OS on the computer). That's why I have more
RAM on this computer. Today, I was running
two VMs at the same time. And 3GB of RAM is
enough to do that.
3) 3D games. Some like a bit more RAM than 1GB
can provide.

And you can measure whether the RAM on the 8200
is adequate, by using Task Manager (the
control-alt-delete thing). The Commit Charge (Peak)
value, collected after a whole day of usage, gives
some idea of the peak amount of RAM used during that
time period. For example, my "Peak" value reads
1.7GB at the moment, and so if I only had 1GB
of physical memory present, that means 0.7GB
of left-overs were stored in the Pagefile (slow).
So based on that single measurement, I know I could
use at least 2GB of physical RAM, so when the daytime
peak occurs, it all fits into DIMMs, and none
goes into the Pagefile. The Pagefile is on the hard
drive, and it chugs pretty slowly. (The 4KB-sized operations
the OS does, don't help matters, and that's why it is slow.
It takes a gazillion commands to the hard drive, to work
with any significant portion of the Pagefile.)

I have a suspicion the max config for your machine,
might be 1.5GB. That would be 2x512MB and 2x256MB.
With the 256MB ones being selected because of the
chain length limit for the chips. If you already
have 4x256MB, I doubt it would make a noticeable
improvement to change two modules to the 512MB size,
and they might also be expensive (as they would be
in more demand than the 128MB RIMMs). It's a wonder
Ebay sellers don't just throw their 128MB RIMMs in
the garbage, because nobody really wants them. Everyone
wants the big modules, so expect a significant "distortion"
to the pricing of such things.

I remember at work, back when memory came in less-wide
modules, someone at work had a drawer full of modules
that had been replaced with higher capacity ones. And
he couldn't find anyone willing to take them. So they
sat in his drawer. Probably hundreds of them. So some
modules are effectively "obsolete", because using
them doesn't give you enough RAM to run an OS. They
really shouldn't have put 128MB modules in the machine
when it was originally sold. They should have used
256MB ones. WinXP with 256MB of RAM, it would
probably boot, but it wouldn't be a lot of fun.

Paul

Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]

July 9th 15, 06:27 PM

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 18:01:58 -0700 (PDT), Mark Twain
> wrote:

> I stand corrected Ken
>
> Thanks,

You're welcome. Glad to help.

Mark Twain

July 9th 15, 11:58 PM

As you say, removing cards is an option but
I think we can safely remove the dial-up card
and wire to the sound card and toss it and use
my one blank tab to cover it. That will at least
free up space for more air circulation.

In passing, I thought I would use the tab as a
template and make others out of sheet metal in
case we decided to removed the sound card or I
could use wire mesh for air flow and tape the
edges with duck tape(just in case).

Here's the before/after RAM

http://i58.tinypic.com/m9vckj.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/2ue4n7o.jpg

I believe I have 1GB for the 8200 although I've
heard that 2GB is Max.

There's another question that puzzles me. As I said
I don't use the 8200 much but I've downloaded new
programs you've given me e.g Agent Ransack and files
and such and I've noticed the time is much faster than
the 8500. Not in the transfer of the files but the
actual download time and I was wondering why that is?

Is it because the 8500 has so much on it and the 8500
doesn't?

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain

July 10th 15, 01:48 AM

I had a better idea; I still have my 486
tower that I now use as a pedestal for the
8500. So I opened it up and took out it's
tabs and screws. After all these years it
still had some use. I wonder if I could use
it's fan if mine ever gave out or other parts?
Probably too old.

Since I had it opened up I thought you'd be
interested:

http://i60.tinypic.com/296dksh.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/2i1382b.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/347tuuu.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/2jd3nsm.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/dbqgyo.jpg

Robert

Paul

July 10th 15, 02:34 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I had a better idea; I still have my 486
> tower that I now use as a pedestal for the
> 8500. So I opened it up and took out it's
> tabs and screws. After all these years it
> still had some use. I wonder if I could use
> it's fan if mine ever gave out or other parts?
> Probably too old.
>
> Since I had it opened up I thought you'd be
> interested:
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/296dksh.jpg
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/2i1382b.jpg
>
> http://i62.tinypic.com/347tuuu.jpg
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/2jd3nsm.jpg
>
> http://i57.tinypic.com/dbqgyo.jpg
>
> Robert

Some of the mechanical parts on computer cases,
are unique and not all that transferable from
one computer to the next. There is more than
one slot cover design for example, and you
could easily find one which doesn't fit the
other machine properly. For example, I have a machine
that the slot covers use "spring fingers" and no screws.
The slot cover is a spring loaded, interference fit,
and you just push it into place to block a PCI hole.

The other thing that tends to be unique, is the
standoff mechanism under the motherboard. There's
at least 20 different designs for those, and
the standoffs that come with a computer case,
stay with that computer case. Those parts
would only cause trouble if you try to reuse them.
Sometimes the threads are the same, but the
screw length is different. And causes a "Bad fit"
if placed in some other computer case.

Only if you have two identical cases, are the odds
good of sharing parts between them.

I have one computer case here, where the bag of screws
that came with it, some of the screws have no threads.
A machinist in North America would faint on the spot,
if shown garbage like that :-) But somehow, they managed
to sweep defective parts off the floor, and include
them in the bag of screws for my computer case. Naturally,
I ran a little short.

I don't have anything 486 era here. I started with Unix
and Macintosh, and only later in life worked with PCs.
So 440BX and P3 is where I started on PCs. I think
the slowest PC I've ever worked with, was 6MHz, and it
was actually manufactured by my company (but not by me).
Worked OK. 6Mhz didn't seem so slow back then :-)

Paul

Paul

July 10th 15, 02:44 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> As you say, removing cards is an option but
> I think we can safely remove the dial-up card
> and wire to the sound card and toss it and use
> my one blank tab to cover it. That will at least
> free up space for more air circulation.
>
> In passing, I thought I would use the tab as a
> template and make others out of sheet metal in
> case we decided to removed the sound card or I
> could use wire mesh for air flow and tape the
> edges with duck tape(just in case).
>
> Here's the before/after RAM
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/m9vckj.jpg
>
> http://i62.tinypic.com/2ue4n7o.jpg
>
> I believe I have 1GB for the 8200 although I've
> heard that 2GB is Max.
>
> There's another question that puzzles me. As I said
> I don't use the 8200 much but I've downloaded new
> programs you've given me e.g Agent Ransack and files
> and such and I've noticed the time is much faster than
> the 8500. Not in the transfer of the files but the
> actual download time and I was wondering why that is?
>
> Is it because the 8500 has so much on it and the 8500
> doesn't?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

Yeah, I don't know if 2GB RAMBUS 16-bit RIMM configurations
are supported or not. The "expert" on this stuff, used
to claim there was a length limit to the serial communications
channel, so it would do 24 chips in a row (512MB RIMM and
256MB RIMM), but would be unstable with 32 chips (two 512MB
RIMM modules on the same channel). In the year 2015, it would be
pretty difficult to track down good info. Maybe some 850 chipset
documentation would have the answer. Or maybe if you used
slower RAM, you could run a total of 4x512MB.

For its time, RAMBUS was considered fast, and beat the competing
DIMM technology. But RAMBUS as a company, made themselves
unpopular enough (patent and licensing warfare), that the
industry attempted to get as far away from them as possible.
I think some RAMBUS memories might have been used later
in some game consoles, but for PCs, it was the end of the
road.

*******

With regard to comparing the 8500 download behavior to the
8200, I'd have to be standing there, to even begin to guess
at what is going on. While you have AV software scanning
the downloads, that shouldn't interfere with the download
speed. I take it occasionally, on the 8500, you open Task Manager
(control-alt-delete or from the TaskBar, right-click), and
watch the CPU utilization.

I occasionally have issues here, where Firefox goes into a loop
and uses up one of my two CPU cores on the E8400 CPU. And I
can sometimes notice a slight difference in some other thing
I'm doing, that alerts me that something is going on. But the
processor on your 8500 is a lot stronger than mine, and even
a runaway program, you shouldn't really notice that on it.

Generally, the routers give equal shares to the various things
plugged into them, so I doubt that's the problem.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 10th 15, 04:01 AM

Luckily, the tabs and screws are the same on
both so I can use them. One other thing of note
was that the 486 was heavier than hell. *L*

Oh I also found a anti-static bag.

So our procedure is to:

1. install the new video card
2. remove the dial-up card and
wire to sound card and put a
blank tab in it's place.

Then if all goes ok,

3.load the drivers(will it prompt
me? If not what's the procedure?)
4.test card temperature with the
GPU-Z link

correct?

Robert

Paul

July 10th 15, 04:18 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Luckily, the tabs and screws are the same on
> both so I can use them. One other thing of note
> was that the 486 was heavier than hell. *L*
>
> Oh I also found a anti-static bag.
>
> So our procedure is to:
>
> 1. install the new video card
> 2. remove the dial-up card and
> wire to sound card and put a
> blank tab in it's place.
>
> Then if all goes ok,
>
> 3.load the drivers(will it prompt
> me? If not what's the procedure?)
> 4.test card temperature with the
> GPU-Z link
>
> correct?
>
> Robert

The OS has two drivers. The OS has a built-in VESA
driver. It uses that when the manufacturer driver
is missing. That is why you can see the computer
screen, just after the new video card is installed.
Because the OS installs the VESA driver to make
the new card work.

You can tell it is using the VESA driver, because
the "screen is scrunched". It doesn't operate at
full resolution. It is too cramped, to work on
the computer that way.

When you buy a video card, if it is retail-boxed,
the box contains an installation CD. Once the OS
is booted, and you're seeing the smaller-than-normal
desktop display, you can insert the CD in the optical
drive, and install the driver.

Now, for brand new cards (ones released within the last
month say), the driver on the CD may be a bad driver,
and not work well. In which case, for an NVidia card
you would go to the website and get a driver update.
So you can also download a driver from the website,
if the driver on the CD is not working.

For my most recent video card purchase, the drivers
on the CD in the box worked well, so there was no rush
to download anything further.

*******

Normally, you try to remove the old driver, before installing
the new card. I learned this the hard way. I had a computer
with three different brands of cards in it )possinly NVidia,
ATI, Matrox), and eventually, something happened to the registry,
where no games would enter 3D mode any more. I tried all sorts
of stuff to fix it, but because I never removed the old drivers,
things were a mess. I used some "driver cleaner" programs at the time,
but whatever was broken in the Registry, just wasn't getting
fixed. So I had to repair install the OS to fix it.

Since I changed practices, to remove the old driver, before installing
the new card, I haven't run into a similar situation. Skipping this
process for one card swap, probably won't hurt, but I learned my
lesson after trying three different cards. And then something broke.

Paul

Ammammata

July 10th 15, 11:10 AM

Il giorno Thu 09 Jul 2015 02:18:37a, *Ken Blake, MVP* inviava su
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio
. Vediamo cosa scrisse:

> Because both have fewer users, and malware writers target the most
> popular systems, there may be a somewhat lower risk of infection. But
> in both cases, the risk is far from zero
>

anyway, 0.01% against is far better than 99.99%

in 5+ years, with 3+ computers running LXLE, I never got one of those
malware

OTOH, at work, every other day I must run and clean computers from
infections (the last two were cryptolocker); and *yes*, they had antivirus,
antimalware, antieverything installed & running

--
/-\ /\/\ /\/\ /-\ /\/\ /\/\ /-\ T /-\
-=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- - -=-
>>>>> http://www.bb2002.it :) <<<<<
............ [ al lavoro ] ...........

Ammammata

July 10th 15, 11:13 AM

Il giorno Fri 10 Jul 2015 12:10:31p, *Ammammata* inviava su
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio
. 189. Vediamo cosa
scrisse:

>
> in 5+ years, with 3+ computers running LXLE, I never got one of those
> malware
>
>

I run a w7 computer too... I never got anything bad on it because there is
the most important anti-everything active: the brain

--
/-\ /\/\ /\/\ /-\ /\/\ /\/\ /-\ T /-\
-=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- - -=-
>>>>> http://www.bb2002.it :) <<<<<
............ [ al lavoro ] ...........

Mark Twain

July 14th 15, 08:23 AM

Hell Paul,

I'm still waiting on the Video card but today
I had an issue with my Flash Player where everything
froze up. I checked my plug-ins and sure enough it
was the Shockwave Flash Plugin.

http://i57.tinypic.com/34z0cno.jpg

In fact, to even get the above link I had to accept the
Flash Player.

I haven't done anything yet because I wanted to check
with you first and I did read up on it but I use Flash
Player allot. Is there a way around this?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 14th 15, 10:15 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Hell Paul,
>
> I'm still waiting on the Video card but today
> I had an issue with my Flash Player where everything
> froze up. I checked my plug-ins and sure enough it
> was the Shockwave Flash Plugin.
>
> http://i57.tinypic.com/34z0cno.jpg
>
> In fact, to even get the above link I had to accept the
> Flash Player.
>
> I haven't done anything yet because I wanted to check
> with you first and I did read up on it but I use Flash
> Player allot. Is there a way around this?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

Weird.

The Flash page still lists 203 as the current one.

https://www.adobe.com/products/flashplayer/distribution3.html

*******

OK, I checked my browser that has Flash 18.0.0.203 and it says:

Version: 18.0.0.203
State: Enabled (STATE_VULNERABLE_NO_UPDATE)

So there is no update available right now!

That means there is a problem, and if you visit any
dodgy sites right now, they could take over using Flash.

And the thing is, when the Hack Team site was looted,
they got sample code for exploits. So the bad guys have
a "head start" on this one. And Adobe, while working
quickly, is having trouble keeping up.

This is why the industry needs to finish the transition
off Flash and to HTML5. It's not that HTML5 is bullet proof
or anything, but if exploits are made for it, some browsers
will be fixed before others, meaning users will flock
to the "best maintained" browser.

*******

Doubly weird...

The status page says the current version is 18.0.0.209

http://www.adobe.com/software/flash/about/

And i just reloaded this page, and the new version is up!

Is that service or what ? Get your copy of 18.0.0.209 here.

https://www.adobe.com/products/flashplayer/distribution3.html

Windows Plugin-based browsers Download EXE Installer

https://fpdownload.macromedia.com/get/flashplayer/current/licensing/win/install_flash_player_18_plugin.exe

Before you click the download link, you can rename your old
installer download, to show it was 18_0_0_203. I put the release
number in the file name of mine, so I can tell them apart later.

And I'm downloading 209, while sending this post...

HTH,
Paul

Mark Twain

July 14th 15, 11:04 AM

That did it! Thanks. I didn't rename the file
before hand though.

Just curious, since we were talking about problems
by not deleting the prior program with the video
cards, should I have deleted the Adobe program first
before downloading? Although it didn't prompt me with
any overwrites?

In addition, I've already removed the dial-up
card and replaced it with a blank tab.

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 14th 15, 11:21 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> That did it! Thanks. I didn't rename the file
> before hand though.
>
> Just curious, since we were talking about problems
> by not deleting the prior program with the video
> cards, should I have deleted the Adobe program first
> before downloading? Although it didn't prompt me with
> any overwrites?
>
> In addition, I've already removed the dial-up
> card and replaced it with a blank tab.
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

No, the Flash don't seem to need any attention.
Just run your EXE installer and it'll take care of
the job.

I'm not a fan of the web based update method, because
there is a possibility of a prompt being faked, and
also there are enough reports of update failures, I can't
be bothered to even try it this way.

That's why I like the EXE - so far, no complaints here.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 15th 15, 11:28 PM

Hello Paul,

The video card came and I installed it; the previous
card had a green plastic clip that ran all the way
around the base and I had to unclip it before the card
would release.

However everything seemed to go OK with the new card
and powered up fine. I reset the resolution so this
Is what it looks like:

http://i62.tinypic.com/ek0y86.jpg

then this came up:

http://i61.tinypic.com/260rhjo.jpg

I followed it along but I have no idea where to look
for updates?

http://i58.tinypic.com/6rrdx0.jpg

So its still not fully installed?

I then downloaded and ran GPU-Z

http://i60.tinypic.com/2ce4rc1.gif

http://i58.tinypic.com/2m7jiwl.gif

http://i57.tinypic.com/2eceqlv.gif

http://i60.tinypic.com/15noiyp.gif

Thoughts/Suggestions?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 16th 15, 01:06 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
>
> Hello Paul,
>
> The video card came and I installed it; the previous
> card had a green plastic clip that ran all the way
> around the base and I had to unclip it before the card
> would release.
>
> However everything seemed to go OK with the new card
> and powered up fine. I reset the resolution so this
> Is what it looks like:
>
> http://i62.tinypic.com/ek0y86.jpg
>
> then this came up:
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/260rhjo.jpg
>
> I followed it along but I have no idea where to look
> for updates?
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/6rrdx0.jpg
>
> So its still not fully installed?
>
> I then downloaded and ran GPU-Z
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/2ce4rc1.gif
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/2m7jiwl.gif
>
> http://i57.tinypic.com/2eceqlv.gif
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/15noiyp.gif
>
>
> Thoughts/Suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert
>

I see you grabbed the "branded" version of GPU-Z.
That has a couple tabs that wouldn't be on the other
one. I generally go for the non-branded utilities.

You need an NVidia driver. You're on WinXP.

Once the driver is in place, the temperature sensor should
appear in GPUZ.

The ven_10DE dev_0221 confirms it is a 6200 card.

On this page, under Supported Devices, I can see 6200.
And it's supposed to be a WinXP driver.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/winxp_175.19_whql.html

http://www.nvidia.com/object/winxp-258.96-whql-driver.html

The highest revision I can find, is 307.83 WHQL for WinXP from 2013.
On geforce.com, by manual selection. Geforce.com is an
NVidia site, and where they send you for drivers. I found
those other links, using an "archive" search.

*******

Now, I just checked my WinXP setup, and I'm actually
running 175.19 for my NVidia 7900 family card. So
I can vouch for that one. I haven't bothered to update
the driver in some time. That should be good enough.

So this is what I'm running right now. For the older
cards, they stop updating the code after a while,
which is why a newer driver won't necessarily help
with older cards like 6200 or 7900.

But it's you choice, if you want to hunt down a newer
one, like from the year 2013.

With any luck, the new NVidia driver will remove the
old one. Your 45.xx release.

*******

And since everything is coming back up properly,
then there must be a problem with the AGP card
you just pulled. Have you examined it yet ?
Is the fan blade on the card jammed, or does
the blade turn freely ?

Paul

Mark Twain

July 16th 15, 06:51 AM

After I had the card installed and brought most of it
up to date (except the drivers) I used your links to
upgrade Adobe Flash Player/Plugin.

I then ran the latest Nvidia driver download you provided
and installed it.

I don't quite know what you mean when you say 'Is the
fan blade on the card jammed, or does the blade turn
freely?

If your speaking of the top fan (the one I nudge occasionally)
It turns freely. I also noticed its allot easier starting the
8200 than before.

Here's the old card:

http://i61.tinypic.com/2lu9s3q.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/1jpycp.jpg

Mark Twain

July 16th 15, 07:10 AM

Here's the driver install:

http://i58.tinypic.com/5yz4t0.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/s3ilwj.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/24zkcqu.jpg

and GPU-Z

http://i61.tinypic.com/2r5f7o8.jpg

Thanks for all the great links
Robert

Mark Twain

July 16th 15, 07:41 AM

Here's what the 8200 originally came with:

http://i62.tinypic.com/2gy62jk.jpg

Mark Twain

July 16th 15, 07:49 AM

and what Device Manager shows at present:

http://i61.tinypic.com/20iymhz.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/2ccs4dw.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/35m4gzr.jpg

Robert

Mark Twain

July 16th 15, 08:31 AM

Here's my plug-ins:

http://i57.tinypic.com/125nqbn.jpg

Some of these are different than the 8500 so
I don't now if I should activate them or not?

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain

July 16th 15, 08:37 AM

I keep getting these which is why I
showed you the plug-ins:

http://i58.tinypic.com/2dumkxu.jpg

Robert

Paul

July 16th 15, 09:28 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
>
> Here's my plug-ins:
>
> http://i57.tinypic.com/125nqbn.jpg
>
> Some of these are different than the 8500 so
> I don't now if I should activate them or not?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

For the bottom four, it's probably not going to
make that much difference. The two you've turned
on at the top, are more likely to be used every day.

Paul

Paul

July 16th 15, 12:39 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I keep getting these which is why I
> showed you the plug-ins:
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/2dumkxu.jpg
>
> Robert
>

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/warning-unresponsive-script?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=Warning+Unresponsive+script

"Webroot Spy Sweeper

Webroot Spy Sweeper can cause this problem. Disabling Spy Sweeper's
Tracking Cookies feature (or disabling Spy Sweeper altogether) can
solve the issue."

That's the only item there, that might be relevant. Google
is attempting to set a cookie, and trying over and over again ?

*******

Otherwise, you might need tools to understand what
is going on. Apparently Firebug can help with that,
but I've never used it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebug_(Firefox_extension)

My browser has an error console, but when a script is looping,
somehow I doubt that will be working at the time. So an
actual debugger might be the next step. Certainly, disabling
scripts entirely, will result in a blank page and no Google
Groups for you. They won't run without their army of scripts.

Paul

Paul

July 16th 15, 12:57 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> After I had the card installed and brought most of it
> up to date (except the drivers) I used your links to
> upgrade Adobe Flash Player/Plugin.
>
> I then ran the latest Nvidia driver download you provided
> and installed it.
>
> I don't quite know what you mean when you say 'Is the
> fan blade on the card jammed, or does the blade turn
> freely?
>
> If your speaking of the top fan (the one I nudge occasionally)
> It turns freely. I also noticed its allot easier starting the
> 8200 than before.
>
> Here's the old card:
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/2lu9s3q.jpg
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/1jpycp.jpg

Amazing that a Geforce2 MX would just up and
die like that. There is practically nothing
on the card that can fail. It doesn't have
that many caps on it. It doesn't use a low
voltage core. (The entire thing could be
running from 3.3V levels.) And I don't see
any burn marks to go on as a hint.

That leave bit-rot on the VESA BIOS chip onboard.
That's the SST chip with the green label on top. Without
a working VESA chip, that may cause the BIOS to not
be able to display anything. Flash chips are only
guaranteed to hold their contents for ten years. And
one guy who used to hang out in the group, had motherboard
BIOS problems a couple times, that looked like bit-rot
on the large DIP flash chip on the motherboard.
(He could fix stuff like that - he repaired
motherboards for people.)

Other than that, I'm out of ideas as to what could
have happened to it. Sure, RAM chips can fail,
but why would they do that, after this many years ?

Paul

Paul

July 16th 15, 01:08 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Here's the driver install:
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/5yz4t0.jpg
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/s3ilwj.jpg
>
> http://i57.tinypic.com/24zkcqu.jpg
>
> and GPU-Z
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/2r5f7o8.jpg
>
>
> Thanks for all the great links
> Robert

Would your AV be blocking that ?

My copy of 175.19, is 38,674,984 bytes.
Is that the size of the one you downloaded ?
My download is dated from around 2010, so I
got the file around five years ago.

And the evidence you've presented so far, suggests
the existing NVidia driver (the one running your
Geforce2 MX), is running the 6200 for you. The device
manager labeling of the card suggests that to me.

I might have suggested going to Add/Remove and
removing the 45 series driver, but I feel at
the moment, it's better to allow the new driver
installer to handle that. It's your symptoms
that bother me, and I don't want to make things
worse for you, by forcing you to endure days
of running the 8200 at 640x480 (tiny screen
syndrome). The best approach right now, is
to figure out what is blocking the 175.19 from
succeeding, so your screen stays at a reasonable
resolution. I find the small screen thing (where
the OS uses the fallback VESA driver) to be very
annoying.

It might not be an OS issue as such - and it
could be one of your "armaments" against malware
that is doing it. You would think if Avast
was responsible, there would be a log entry of
some sort, or some dialog box from Avast
telling you it "saved you from a disaster" or such.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 16th 15, 04:27 PM

There actually have been a couple of
pop-up messages concerning Firefox
unrecoverable error which I thought
I mentioned.

Also, when logging off it did an update
of something because it told me not to
turn off the computer. While at the same
time I had the same thing happen to the
8500 with 13 updates.

The resolution on the 8200 is exactly
like the 8500 now so I see no problems
your describing.

The temperature seems to be well within
limits.

I'm thinking of buying speakers for the 8200
so that I can hear the beeps etc as you pointed
out. It came with Bose speakers but I'm
using those with the 8500. So I'm checking
out speakers on eBay.

If the 8200 were your computer is there anything
else you would do?

Thanks once again for all your great help,
Robert

Paul

July 16th 15, 10:33 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> There actually have been a couple of
> pop-up messages concerning Firefox
> unrecoverable error which I thought
> I mentioned.
>
> Also, when logging off it did an update
> of something because it told me not to
> turn off the computer. While at the same
> time I had the same thing happen to the
> 8500 with 13 updates.
>
> The resolution on the 8200 is exactly
> like the 8500 now so I see no problems
> your describing.
>
> The temperature seems to be well within
> limits.
>
> I'm thinking of buying speakers for the 8200
> so that I can hear the beeps etc as you pointed
> out. It came with Bose speakers but I'm
> using those with the 8500. So I'm checking
> out speakers on eBay.
>
> If the 8200 were your computer is there anything
> else you would do?
>
> Thanks once again for all your great help,
> Robert

Well, I think you have *some* driver running
for the 8200. So maybe what you've done is sufficient.

You know there are a million reasons for Firefox to have
errors. You could check your Firefox and see if there is
any check box for Hardware Acceleration and disable it.
The box in this example is un-ticked.

It's in Advanced : General : Browsing, of the Firefox preferences.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--1zQOu0Nt--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/18tkt9pl8gvu8jpg.jpg

Your temperature readout on the 6200 seemed reasonable,
and I didn't see a problem there.

The Flash plugin, it doesn't look like the control panel
for Flash has a hardware acceleration setting. And putting
that control in the playback window (when playback could
be busted), would be pretty silly. But that's the way that
one works.

If your Firefox behaves badly and you're not using the
Flash plugin at the time (not watching Flash video), then
it could be just the Firefox hardware acceleration setting.
I thought Firefox used 2D BITBLT for some reason that
escapes me. (I.e. A pointless "optimization")

Paul

Mark Twain

July 17th 15, 12:36 AM

Is it possible the old card is good but
the software became corrupted somehow making
it unusable? If so, I can always save it for
a backup.

I don't mind paying for the new card because
I like the cooling fins which the other
card didn't have and the resolution and
response if far greater than before but
from your comments I gather the original
card was pretty good?

I put it in the anti-static bag the other
card came with.

I was wrong, I didn't have Bose speakers
with the 8200 they're Harmon Kardon and
pretty nice actually.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/311401170834?lpid=82&chn=ps

I checked on both computers and you were
right, the Hardware Acceleration box was
ticked so I disabled it on both.

Lastly, I was thinking of eliminating
some of the bulk on the 8500 HD. I was
thinking of buying another 1TB Seagate
external HD and move most of the files
there:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=seagate+backup&N=-1&isNodeId=1

Unfortunately, it seems Seagate's quality
isn't what it once was. So could you
recommend another?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 17th 15, 01:56 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Is it possible the old card is good but
> the software became corrupted somehow making
> it unusable? If so, I can always save it for
> a backup.
>
> I don't mind paying for the new card because
> I like the cooling fins which the other
> card didn't have and the resolution and
> response if far greater than before but
> from your comments I gather the original
> card was pretty good?
>
> I put it in the anti-static bag the other
> card came with.
>
> I was wrong, I didn't have Bose speakers
> with the 8200 they're Harmon Kardon and
> pretty nice actually.
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/311401170834?lpid=82&chn=ps
>
> I checked on both computers and you were
> right, the Hardware Acceleration box was
> ticked so I disabled it on both.
>
> Lastly, I was thinking of eliminating
> some of the bulk on the 8500 HD. I was
> thinking of buying another 1TB Seagate
> external HD and move most of the files
> there:
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=seagate+backup&N=-1&isNodeId=1
>
> Unfortunately, it seems Seagate's quality
> isn't what it once was. So could you
> recommend another?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

These are difficult times, when it comes to buying
hard drives.

I like to pick up a bare drive mechanism. Since
you seem to be on track for using more space, I
selected a 2TB one. That's the largest you could
use on WinXP (8200) without "tricks". I have a 3TB
connected to my WinXP PC here, but I use the
Acronis Capacity Manager driver to do that. And
I lost some hair, getting that installed, the
process was so unreasonable. So if you stick
with a 2TB drive, that's a good size for your
"mix" of machines. If you just had the 8500 with
Windows 7, that limitation would be removed.
The Acronis Capacity Manager doesn't "work thru" a
USB enclosure, so that's another hair loss issue
if buying "too big a drive for WinXP". While buying
2TB drives is "being a chicken", it's a lot less
worry later.

WD BLACK WD2003FZEX 2TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 3.5" Hard Drive $123
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822236624

For an enclosure, you could use a USB docking
station. But those can tip over on your table,
and the base doesn't usually have enough of a
counterweight for the job.

This solution is $34 (at the moment) and comes with a fan.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817707227

The instruction manual, contained no interior shots of
the product. Instead, this is as close as I could get,
to what it looks like inside.

http://www.thinkcomputers.org/hornettek-goliath-usb-3-0-external-hard-drive-enclosure-review/

As *always* happens with these things, the airflow is
brain-dead. The aluminum tray with the cheese-grater
holes in it, is right over top of the 80mm fan.
(And I can't see the fan, to see if it is a replaceable
type. It could be an 80mm 15mm thick fan for example,
and not the same as a 25mm thick computer case fan.)

Having a fan is better than nothing. I would have to
modify my unit upon receipt, get out my aluminum
nibbling tool, and cut away most of the tray
(the bits not needed for mechanical support) to
get better airflow. At least the enclosure has
exhaust vents, but they're *tiny*. I have purchased
one enclosure here, which had an intake fan and
no exhaust vents at all. It took 10-15 minutes
work with my electric drill, to make a cheese
grater pattern on the bottom of the enclosure,
so the air could get out.

So when you buy this kinda crap for $34,
"some assembly required" is the rule of thumb.

But that's just a bad habit I've got, of
"fixing stuff that doesn't need fixing" :-)

The power adapter, is the kind with the snap-on prongs.
I'm not all that excited by that type of adapter,
but mine hasn't fallen off yet. You snap on the
set of prongs appropriate for your location in
the world. It makes it easier for them to distribute
the product world-wide. I much prefer wall adapters
with dedicated North American prongs on them.

HTH,
Paul

Mark Twain

July 17th 15, 04:32 AM

When you say these are hard times for
buying hard drives are you saying it's
because they are more expensive or the
quality has gone down or both?

If I buy another external HD it would
only be for the 8500 not the 8200 so
there would be no restrictions.

However I would prefer the HD to be
already cased unless that drives the
cost up which it probably does but it
may be worth it and I prefer North
American plugs which is probably the
better option if at all possible. This
isn't immediate but I would like to
have some external storage to free up
space on the 8500.

Would I use Imageburn or Nero or something
else to move files from the 8500 to the
external HD for access/storage?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 17th 15, 05:23 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> When you say these are hard times for
> buying hard drives are you saying it's
> because they are more expensive or the
> quality has gone down or both?
>
> If I buy another external HD it would
> only be for the 8500 not the 8200 so
> there would be no restrictions.
>
> However I would prefer the HD to be
> already cased unless that drives the
> cost up which it probably does but it
> may be worth it and I prefer North
> American plugs which is probably the
> better option if at all possible. This
> isn't immediate but I would like to
> have some external storage to free up
> space on the 8500.
>
> Would I use Imageburn or Nero or something
> else to move files from the 8500 to the
> external HD for access/storage?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert
>

You don't need anything special to move user data
files.

Moving an operating system is another matter, as the
files have all sorts of goofy permissions, and those
need to be preserved. That's why we have Macrium Feflect,
to make imaging or copying easier.

With a single folder of movie files, you can just
drag and drop that. Later, right-click and do "Properties",
if you want to review the amount of information in the folder.
It should match the source folder (you can right-click the
source folder and check its properties). Once you're sure
the copy went well, you can delete the original folder,
then empty the trash bin.

With regard to hard drives, I try to select something
where I haven't yet seen issues. With the small Seagates
I was previously using, they seemed to "wear".

If I was going with Seagate now, I would continue to do
what I was doing in the past with them. Buy two. Do identical
things with them, so both have a copy. If one fails,
you have the second one. That's my Seagate algorithm.

If you want to buy pre-enclosed drives (like the one you
currently own), the issues are:

1) No cooling for the drive.
2) Frequent spin-down to keep drive cool.
3) You get the cheapest drive mechanism possible.

Those are the things we can be sure of.

The thing about my collection of Seagates, is the
SMART statistics are not encouraging, yet, the drive
continues to run. Unlike the Maxtor brand failures I've had,
the Seagates are still going. But the evidence is, they're
not all that healthy here right now.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 17th 15, 08:18 AM

Understood

I think after all is considered
I'll go with your HD and case
recommendation. Even if the fan
is not replaceable is better than
no fan as you pointed out.

As far as modifying the case, should
I make it a honeycomb and drill holes
top and bottom or just cut away the excess?

Lastly, do they provide the power adapter
with snap on clips you spoke of or is this
an after market item I have to find?

In passing, the clips that hold the green
shroud cover for the 8200 sometimes work
loose or whatever and emit a whining sound
where I have to go back and nudge them to
stop. Any other recommendations to quite
these plastic tabs?

Also, on the 8200 I've noticed the DVD light
come on when I power everything up but then
later goes out on its own. I thought this a
bit odd as if some portion of a download
didn't work?

Robert

Paul

July 17th 15, 12:05 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Understood
>
> I think after all is considered
> I'll go with your HD and case
> recommendation. Even if the fan
> is not replaceable is better than
> no fan as you pointed out.
>
> As far as modifying the case, should
> I make it a honeycomb and drill holes
> top and bottom or just cut away the excess?
>
> Lastly, do they provide the power adapter
> with snap on clips you spoke of or is this
> an after market item I have to find?
>
> In passing, the clips that hold the green
> shroud cover for the 8200 sometimes work
> loose or whatever and emit a whining sound
> where I have to go back and nudge them to
> stop. Any other recommendations to quite
> these plastic tabs?
>
> Also, on the 8200 I've noticed the DVD light
> come on when I power everything up but then
> later goes out on its own. I thought this a
> bit odd as if some portion of a download
> didn't work?
>
>
> Robert

With regard to modifying the enclosure, I "observe" a
bit first, to see how well it is working. If you can
feel some airflow through the vents, if the fan
doesn't sound too labored, that's a start.

You don't have to modify anything if you don't
want to. The enclosure I got, where there were no
vents at all, I *had* to fix that, because it made
a mockery of the fan. I suppose the other option
in that case, would have been to remove the fan
entirely, as it would be serving no purpose. The
ventilation on the Startech case isn't completely
broken, but they missed a golden opportunity
to do a better job. I guess it would depend on how
the drive is supported by the metal tray inside,
as to how best to fix it.

The nibbling tool I've got, is for aluminum. This
is the model I've got, and I've had this for probably
20 years.

http://www.mpja.com/images/31197-large.jpg

It isn't powerful enough for working with steel. As long
as you can get the head of the tool through the metal (using
a pilot hole), you can do stuff like nibble a square hole in
something. You don't want to weaken the tray to the point
that it cannot hold up the drive. Which is why examination
of the product first is required, to see what needs to be
done.

The way the airflow is arranged right now in that
enclosure, it looks like the main purpose of the fan is
just "air exchange", keeping the casing at ambient,
rather than blowing right onto the drive. (The metal
tray inside, impairs impingement cooling.) That's
what I would be looking to improve. The WD Black drives
get warm, so it needs some help. The WD Black drives I
own so far, have been holding up well (SMART still good),
but they do get warm, and they need some cooling if in a
confined space.

+----------------------------------------+
| |
<-- +------------------------------+ -->
End | | Side view of drive in casing | | End
Vent <-- +------------------------------+ --> Vent
| ------------------ tray |
| |
+--+---------- Fan aperture ----------+--+
Small | | ^ ^ ^ | | Small
Foot +--+ | | | +--+ Foot
Air intake

By using the enclosure, if your boot drive ever dies, you
have the option of pulling the drive out of the tray, and
using it as a replacement drive. In your 8500 at least,
which does have SATA. A SATA drive would not be of much
use in the 8200 directly of course, without an adapter,
and there might not be room for an adapter. To fit the
2TB drive in the 8200, would take two things. The adapter,
but also patching the OS high enough so that it can handle
a large drive without address rollover at 137GB. This is
the adapter I've got, for using SATA drives in old IDE
computers.

http://www.startech.com/HDD/Adapters/25in-and-35in-40-Pin-Male-IDE-to-SATA-Adapter-Converter~IDE2SAT

*******

Well, you know that "screwless" fasteners are eventually
going to become noisy. And usually that "crap" isn't suited
for fixing. And you'd be hard pressed to make a replacement
that meets all the requirements yourself.

I keep a box of #2 screws handy - stainless machine screws
with matching nuts. They're smaller than 4-40 obviously. And
they're hard to get, in the sense that if you go to Home Depot
and ask for them, they just give you that "we never heard of
such a thing" look. I buy them from a fastener store, and
they're a "special order", so even the fastener store doesn't
stock them. But when I need a small screw, that's my goto guy
for small jobs. When the two halves of my TV remote would
no longer stay together (pops apart), drilling, tapping,
and fitting four of those screws, put a stop to it :-)

But for your fan shroud, I don't know if there is material
present, for home brew repair. Lots and lots of modern things,
are too thin, and lacking of substance, to fix with my bag
of tricks.

I even broke my tap for the #2 screws, and the fastener store
(of course), doesn't stock that one either. I will have to
go back to the machine shop where I bought the thing originally.

The problem with tapping plastic, is when the drill enters
the plastic, the plastic pulls the drill to the side. Every
hole I make, is crooked. Then, when you tap the material
and use the screw, the screw "binds". That's the nature of
the beast. In some cases, I have to cut the screws down
from their 0.75" length, so the binding won't prevent the
repair job from being finished. I have assembled small
plexiglass cases, using those screws for the job. I can't
get the proper plexiglass glue here (probably methylene
chloride based) for the job, so I screw the stuff together.
If you buy plexi that is thick enough, you can drill and
tap screw holes right into the end of the piece of plexi.

Oh, I've got another trick for you. I use bicycle inner tube
rubber, for cushioning of things that vibrate. For example, the
arm rest on my chair was loose, so I fitted a piece of rubber
from an inner tube as a cushion. That helps absorb noise
and vibration. I get enough flat tires on the bicycle, that
I have an inner tube or two sitting around, ready to
sacrifice for the job. I even use that rubber, when
a hard drive needs a bit of cushioning. Or, that rubber
comes in handy as a no-slip surface. Where my external
USB optical drive sits, there are strips of rubber inner
tube underneath the casing, to help prevent the drive
from moving around too much. So that's another favorite
material I use. I've made stuff with metal sheet, where
the metal sheeting resonates a bit too much. And fitting
a piece of that rubber in the right place, helps put
a stop to it.

*******

For the light to come on the DVD, either the BIOS is
attempting to read the drive. Or, the drive thinks
it sees media in the tray (when none is present).
While it is possible the problem could be power
related, it could also be a problem with the
drive itself. I don't have an easy answer as to how
you debug the problem. If inserting a DVD, and reading
it is working properly, and the tray ejects properly,
that would tell you whether everything in the drive
is working right from a functional standpoint. But if
it mis-behaves at startup, I don't know how to explain
that. The light on mine may come on, but not for
long periods of time.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 18th 15, 12:00 AM

With regard to the new external HD for
storage I'll observe it first and it
might be just fine but if I need to
alter things I was actually thinking
of drills/dremal not cutting but I've
never done this.

Your speaking of cutting metal not
plastic correct?

So do I need to buy a tool as well? Also
does it come with a USB cable or do I
buy that?

If I loose the HD on the 8500 for
whatever reason and I've moved all the
storage to the HD do I just add the OS
with it so that it would look like it
does now or would I loose my data?

I do have the original 40GB HD and another
160GB HD for the 8200 I believe although I'm
not sure if it works.

You gave some good suggestions but the
tabs allow for nothing to slip between.
I'll have to think about it. The light on
the 8200 DVD did not come on this time
and the top fan in back has been coming on
by its itself which is a good sign.

Also, I use to get a yellow triangle in the
system tray when logging on and I would have
to click troubleshoot to to finally logon.
Not all the time but allot. Well, ever since
you had me disable the hardware acceleration
it has stopped and both computers come up
with no problems or errors.

Lastly, could you go over what you meant when
you said, 'these are difficult times for buying
hard drives'.

Thanks
Robert

Paul

July 18th 15, 01:10 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> With regard to the new external HD for
> storage I'll observe it first and it
> might be just fine but if I need to
> alter things I was actually thinking
> of drills/dremal not cutting but I've
> never done this.

I see two possible modifications.

1) End vents aren't big enough. See if
the fan is being put to good use.

2) The metal tray sits just above the
fan. The metal tray has tiny holes in it.
Not a lot of air will move through the
tray area to hit the drive. Only the
ends of the drive will receive airflow,
as the air heads for the exhaust vents
on the ends of the unit.

You could enlarge the holes, or, after examining
the structural integrity, decide how much metal
can safely be removed. I have tin snips, but
they would do a poor job on this item. I have the
nibbling tool, which would be my choice for this
project (since my guess is the tray is aluminum
and good and soft). The nibbling tool, I think the
pilot hole has to be around 1/4" or so. And drilling
the pilot is a bit risky. But once the nibbler gets in there,
it can be used to cut away all the burrs and leave
nice clean edges. The nibbler can cut nice clean
square areas in an aluminum sheet.

Those are things to look at, on your new purchase.

I recently bought a USB3 3.5" enclosure, glove-like
fit, metal case. I run that with the metal removed,
and the drive just sits on one of my temporary mounting
setups. So while I bought an enclosure, I couldn't really
do anything with it to make a cooling solution, so I
no longer use the metal casing. It didn't take
any work to do that :-) No dremel needed.

>
> Your speaking of cutting metal not
> plastic correct?
>
> So do I need to buy a tool as well? Also
> does it come with a USB cable or do I
> buy that?

I think the pictures on the site selling the item,
show a short USB cable. I don't know what tools
are needed for installation, as the manual makes
it look like a "snap in fit". But the manual only
talks about drivers, and nothing else. The manual is
useless. I cannot see in the picture, whether
it uses screws or not.

>
> If I loose the HD on the 8500 for
> whatever reason and I've moved all the
> storage to the HD do I just add the OS
> with it so that it would look like it
> does now or would I loose my data?

You can do some things, to prepare the backup drive
for usage for other purposes.

It would all depend on how big the C: partition is
on the computer you intend to use the drive in.

The idea would be, to "leave a space" for the OS
partition. Say the OS partition was 40GB. You'd put
the 40GB partition, then start the separate backup partition
right after that.

Your tool of choice would be Macrium Reflect. Since you
have a backup of your 8200 stored on disk, you can restore
the C: from the backup, to the new hard drive. That makes
a "space" of the right size. The restore should copy an
MBR with boot code, and set the C: partition active.

Now, go to Disk Management, and define a partition
right after C:.

Boot flag = 0x80, active
+-----+-------------------------+---------------------------+
| MBR | 40GB partition C: | 1960GB backup partition |
| | cloned from machine | with its own drive letter |
| | you think might break | NTFS |
+-----+-------------------------+---------------------------+

Two years from now, if the hard disk fails in the computer,
you do a restore (again) from Macrium, using your latest
image of C:. Since you never changed the size of C:,
the restored C: fits in the space you "reserved" for it
on the new drive.

Now, if your partitions are not in the right order, there
are plenty of things that could screw up this idea. So this
"recipe" isn't the easiest thing in the world to arrange, as
the source disk might have quite a strange setup to it. Only
the simplest of cases would work this easily :-) Treat this
as just an example of an approach, rather than a "guaranteed
to work" idea.

I'm showing this idea, as a way to leave room for a Windows
OS later, in case you want to restore a C: from backup, and
do it without wiping the 1960GB section. Macrium can restore
a whole disk drive (destructive in this case), or you can
ask it just to replace the single partition (C: in this example).

>
> I do have the original 40GB HD and another
> 160GB HD for the 8200 I believe although I'm
> not sure if it works.
>
> You gave some good suggestions but the
> tabs allow for nothing to slip between.
> I'll have to think about it. The light on
> the 8200 DVD did not come on this time
> and the top fan in back has been coming on
> by its itself which is a good sign.
>
> Also, I use to get a yellow triangle in the
> system tray when logging on and I would have
> to click troubleshoot to to finally logon.
> Not all the time but allot. Well, ever since
> you had me disable the hardware acceleration
> it has stopped and both computers come up
> with no problems or errors.

Good to hear :-)

>
> Lastly, could you go over what you meant when
> you said, 'these are difficult times for buying
> hard drives'.

There are lots of products, that it takes me
hours of research to find "safe" ones. I had to
stop buying Seagate drives here (mainly 500GB ones),
because they were showing trouble in SMART after
only one year of usage. I did find some nice
Western Digital ones, but I suspect the drives
have received a "cost reduction redesign", and
I really can't be all that confident in my
choices now for Western Digital. While the
Black drive might be OK, the current one is a
different model number than the ones I own, and
the new drives are *significantly cheaper* than
the old ones. And there has to be a reason
for that. And not a good reason either. I've
bought so much hardware, that has made me unhappy.
I'm quite skeptical of just about everything.

The other day, I bought an SSD. My first SSD.
The next day, I returned it :-) The box
says it "runs at 500MB/sec". Well, I tested it.
Yes, under a set of unrealistic conditions,
it did indeed work at 500MB/sec. The Atto benchmark
results looked positively wonderful. But, in
Windows, with Windows-sized access commands,
it only gave me 120MB/sec. I have hard drives
faster than that :-) It went back to the store.
None of the customer reviews suggested it
was a piece of crap. I'm probably "using it
wrong" or something :-)

Paul

Mark Twain

July 18th 15, 07:21 AM

I'll check the case for airflow etc
and the fan before any modifications.

About your example of partitioning, I
would need you to walk me through
something like that but I understand the
concept. Your saying to partition in
advance for the OS in case I should need
it. What happens to the old OS partition
then?

Another thing I thought of is that maybe
I could use the external case to test the
40GB and 160GB HD's I have to make sure they
are good or not.

I get it, computers are going the way stereo's
have gone with plastic parts and gears instead
of quality. I have a stereo I bought overseas
which was on the cutting of its time and lasted
30+ years before I had it repaired. It now plays
just like the day I bought it. Whereas I was given
a plastic stereo bookshelf system and it broke
within a year.

Sometimes change isn't always for the better.

Actually, when you think about it, the fact
that my Dell 8200 is running 15 years later
is quite remarkable although it's essentially
different computer than when I bought it.

I won't be able to purchase the new HD and case
for about a week but will do so then.

Robert

Mark Twain

July 18th 15, 07:47 AM

I have a Windows 10 nag

http://i57.tinypic.com/1264oi9.jpg

but I can't remember how
we go rid of the Windows 8
nag.

Robert

Paul

July 18th 15, 07:55 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I'll check the case for airflow etc
> and the fan before any modifications.
>
> About your example of partitioning, I
> would need you to walk me through
> something like that but I understand the
> concept. Your saying to partition in
> advance for the OS in case I should need
> it. What happens to the old OS partition
> then?
>
> Another thing I thought of is that maybe
> I could use the external case to test the
> 40GB and 160GB HD's I have to make sure they
> are good or not.
>
> I get it, computers are going the way stereo's
> have gone with plastic parts and gears instead
> of quality. I have a stereo I bought overseas
> which was on the cutting of its time and lasted
> 30+ years before I had it repaired. It now plays
> just like the day I bought it. Whereas I was given
> a plastic stereo bookshelf system and it broke
> within a year.
>
> Sometimes change isn't always for the better.
>
> Actually, when you think about it, the fact
> that my Dell 8200 is running 15 years later
> is quite remarkable although it's essentially
> different computer than when I bought it.
>
> I won't be able to purchase the new HD and case
> for about a week but will do so then.
>
>
> Robert

Remember that the new drive and new enclosure
have to match. They're both SATA (I hope).

The 40GB and 160GB drives are likely to be
IDE ribbon cable drives. There is no
connector for them in the enclosure.
They cannot be tested there.

*******

They make gadgets like this. This is a USB adapter,
with SATA on one side and IDE ribbon cable connectors on the
other sides. It works with 2.5" IDE (laptop), 3.5" IDE (desktop),
and also with SATA (both sizes). It is USB3, and can handle a
drive up to 200MB/sec or so (doesn't go all the way to 500MB/sec).
The speed rating on IDE, will be a lot more modest. (Depending
on strobe design, probably 100MB/sec. Few devices do the full
133MB/sec. Your old drives might be 66MB/sec standard, as
IDE has many different possible speeds.)

USB3SSATAIDE $34

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812400416

That is roughly the equivalent of an enclosure, only it's a portable
sort of device intended for table-top drive testing and short-term
usage. Because it supports three drive types, it solves a
different sort of problem than an enclosure does. It's
a tool for a "tech workbench".

You would probably jumper the drives to "Master" or "Master Only"
when plugged into one of the IDE connectors. You plug in the
wall adapter, to provide DC power to the drive.

One of the weakest aspects of those kits, is the wall adapter.
At one point, the companies were competing on price, they
all started using cheap adapters, the adapters would
blow up the hard drives, making the users very angry.
I expect their standards have improved a slight amount
since that time. It's one thing to check for in the
reviews, is whether anything got damaged by using one.
The last three adapters I've received here, no
electric light show or smoke yet :-)

Paul

Paul

July 18th 15, 02:54 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I have a Windows 10 nag
>
> http://i57.tinypic.com/1264oi9.jpg
>
> but I can't remember how
> we go rid of the Windows 8
> nag.
>
> Robert

That indicates the presence of KB3035583 from
Windows Update. That one has been issued *twice*
so far, just to spoil our fun.

The idea is, you use the Windows Update removal
function, then scan for updates again, and when
you see that number, you right click the update
and select "Hide". But, every time they reissue
the update, you would need to Hide it again.
That's why it can show up a second time. We have
no protection against trickery here. And have to
repeat the procedure to make it go away!

The procedure for removing it, starts half way down
this page. You uninstall 583, reboot, visit Windows
Update, notice that it is in the list again to be
installed, select "Hide" to hide it, and then it's
not supposed to install again. At least, until
they change the revision number or "re-offer" the
update.

http://www.howtogeek.com/218856/how-do-you-disable-the-get-windows-10-icon-shown-in-the-notification-tray/

That article has some pictures, to help you figure it out.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 18th 15, 07:01 PM

Worked great!

Now all we have to do is wait
until I can get the external HD
and case you recommended. I'll
post here when I have it.

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain

July 20th 15, 03:32 AM

The Win 10 nag came back today and
I followed the same procedure and
it's disappeared but I wonder if this
is going to continue coming back?

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain

July 20th 15, 05:03 AM

Hello Paul,

Of late, I've noticed that like when I
click on a story on Yahoo the 8500 freezes
and I can't do anything until the story
loads. This never happened before.

Could the hardware accelerator have anything
to do with this?

On the one hand I like being able to logon
without going into the trouble shooting mode
but at the same time I don't like the 8500
hanging up like this especially as this has
never happened before.

Thoughts/Suggestions?

Robert

Paul

July 20th 15, 05:11 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> The Win 10 nag came back today and
> I followed the same procedure and
> it's disappeared but I wonder if this
> is going to continue coming back?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert
>

It will come back, as many times as
Microsoft re-releases the 583 update.

You must hide the 583 update, to avoid
getting it. If it is re-released, you
must hide it *again*.

They're pretty sneaky.

I have my updates on manual, and I
look for 583 before I click any Install
button.

Paul

Paul

July 20th 15, 05:15 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Hello Paul,
>
> Of late, I've noticed that like when I
> click on a story on Yahoo the 8500 freezes
> and I can't do anything until the story
> loads. This never happened before.
>
> Could the hardware accelerator have anything
> to do with this?
>
> On the one hand I like being able to logon
> without going into the trouble shooting mode
> but at the same time I don't like the 8500
> hanging up like this especially as this has
> never happened before.
>
> Thoughts/Suggestions?
>
> Robert

There are two kinds of "freeze".

1) Single program freezes. For example, Firefox
stops responding if a "script is busy". Firefox
sometimes puts up an alert, because it can detect
a script is busy. (It uses a timer to detect that.)

If you started and used a second browser, it would
not be busy.

This would be a "Firefox versus web page Javascript"
issue.

If none of your desktop controls work when it happens,
then that's not a Firefox issue.

2) An overall computer problem. Someone reported their
computer freezing for seconds at a time. Event viewer
showed a WBEM issue. But in fact, it was a broken
BitDefender installation that was doing it (they figured
it out by trial and error). If the whole computer freezes,
it can be an AV program doing it.

You probably have (1), but I don't know that for sure.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 20th 15, 05:54 AM

When I computer freezes I can't do anything,
the mouse doesn't work or the keyboard. Once
it free's up everything is back to normal but
it shouldn't be doing this at all and never
did this before.

I also came across another question: I was
updating SpywareBlaster and it said that there
was a new version available so I clicked the link:

http://i58.tinypic.com/2r76ijt.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/2h4drww.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/9s865g.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/qqcoja.jpg

It's pretty confusing on which to click for
the correct download. So I thought I would play
it safe and ask you before I click the wrong one.

Why do they make things so difficult? If there's
a new version I shouldn't have to click multiple
times to get it and the download screen just contain
that one download and nothing else.

Your right the EXE command is much better but I
don't know how to retrieve it for the update.

I also I ran a Avast scan on the 8200 and found
(2) threats which I successfully deleted and it
recommended a restart/scan which it's in the
process of doing now.

I'll be ordering the external HD and case for
storage on the 8500 on Wed.

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain

July 20th 15, 06:03 AM

You mentioned that FF would sometimes up an
alert or somtimes I would see a pop-up
that the script is busy. I have seen those
in the past but stopped the script.

I'm not saying this is the cause but ever
since I disabled the hardware acceleration
I haven't seen any and as I said I can logon
with no troubleshooting issues but this freezing
isn't normal

Mark Twain

July 20th 15, 08:17 AM

The 8200 came back up fine with no problems
but I ran the scans again just to make sure.

Robert

Paul

July 20th 15, 08:33 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> When I computer freezes I can't do anything,
> the mouse doesn't work or the keyboard. Once
> it free's up everything is back to normal but
> it shouldn't be doing this at all and never
> did this before.
>
> I also came across another question: I was
> updating SpywareBlaster and it said that there
> was a new version available so I clicked the link:
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/2r76ijt.jpg
>
> http://i57.tinypic.com/2h4drww.jpg
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/9s865g.jpg
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/qqcoja.jpg
>
> It's pretty confusing on which to click for
> the correct download. So I thought I would play
> it safe and ask you before I click the wrong one.
>
> Why do they make things so difficult? If there's
> a new version I shouldn't have to click multiple
> times to get it and the download screen just contain
> that one download and nothing else.
>
> Your right the EXE command is much better but I
> don't know how to retrieve it for the update.
>
> I also I ran a Avast scan on the 8200 and found
> (2) threats which I successfully deleted and it
> recommended a restart/scan which it's in the
> process of doing now.
>
> I'll be ordering the external HD and case for
> storage on the 8500 on Wed.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Robert
>

I checked, and SpywareBlaster is owned by BrightFort.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpywareBlaster

This is supposed to be a link to the product page.

http://www.brightfort.com/spywareblaster.html

*******

In your first picture, they don't promise a direct download.
That button is supposed to "lead you on safari".

On the second image, you would click the less exciting
"continue download" button.

On the third page, it would be "Download SpywareBlaster 5.2
from MajorGeeks". Anything to get off the Safari Trail.

On the fourth page, there are three download links. They
are under Download Locations. I've made a number of downloads
from MajorGeeks without problems.

spywareblastersetup52.exe 4,184,064 bytes

The scan for the download is clean.

https://www.virustotal.com/en/file/f5dd238b74c4a743030508d7e56c4d3d095061a42946ea263a 95c9255332c56d/analysis/

They tried to lose you in the woods, by taking you on
safari, but it didn't work :-) Have fun with your update.

Paul

Paul

July 20th 15, 08:41 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> You mentioned that FF would sometimes up an
> alert or somtimes I would see a pop-up
> that the script is busy. I have seen those
> in the past but stopped the script.
>
> I'm not saying this is the cause but ever
> since I disabled the hardware acceleration
> I haven't seen any and as I said I can logon
> with no troubleshooting issues but this freezing
> isn't normal
>
>

Well, I get them here (a script that won't stop
or finish), so they are common.

Sometimes I switch browsers, and try again, just
to see if every browser gets the same luusy quality
code from the web site.

If they want, a web site can give every
user a unique program to run on their computer,
so really, it's possible to have problems on web
browsers, that no one else can reproduce.

I'm not saying that's the case here. And as for
incompetence, even the Microsoft site has web pages
with bad code on them, that drag the browser to
its knees. So this is a common problem, and even sites
that should know better, can produce just lousy code.
In Microsofts case, they can't even blame "advertiser
code" for causing a script problem, as generally
Microsoft web pages are purely technical. With very
little overt advertising (not like the flashing
crap you see on the Tinypic site :-) )

Paul

Paul

July 20th 15, 09:08 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Hello Paul,
>
> Of late, I've noticed that like when I
> click on a story on Yahoo the 8500 freezes
> and I can't do anything until the story
> loads. This never happened before.
>
> Could the hardware accelerator have anything
> to do with this?
>
> On the one hand I like being able to logon
> without going into the trouble shooting mode
> but at the same time I don't like the 8500
> hanging up like this especially as this has
> never happened before.
>
> Thoughts/Suggestions?
>
> Robert

I tried to read a story on the Yahoo page.

I got a huge (3MB) HTML page, plus a folder
containing another 3MB of files. And in the
folder is a 600KB "movie player" javascript.

But that's not all. Near the top of the page,
portions of the page keep reloading over and
over again.

I railed one core on my CPU for at least 30 seconds.

But, the machine did not freeze.

Now, consider, that you have AV programs on your
machine. There could be an interaction between
that level of activity on the browser, and the
response from the AV software while it watches
what is going on. (The AV software can scan the
files, while they're being read.)

I would keep Task Manager open, revisit the
Yahoo page, and see if Task Manager can continue
to update, while things freeze up.

It takes a lot to freeze up a machine like that.
But an AV (running in Ring0), is in a perfect
position to freeze things. If it wants to.

I had my AV lock up the computer one day, when
I tried to install the FRAPS screen capture
software. I had to use the power button to get out.

One thing you could try, is disable Avast real-time
protection. Then try reading a story on the Yahoo page,
and see if the symptoms differ. Avast probably has
one of those "disable real time protection for
ten minutes" things, which gives you enough time to
test the response of a program, without the AV
interfering.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 20th 15, 06:51 PM

I updated SpywareBlaster on both computers then
I took your advice and started Task Manager then
disabled Avast for 10 minutes then went to Yahoo
and read several stories with no problems whatsoever.

So I should or shouldn't be concerned if it freezes
up?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 20th 15, 08:06 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I updated SpywareBlaster on both computers then
> I took your advice and started Task Manager then
> disabled Avast for 10 minutes then went to Yahoo
> and read several stories with no problems whatsoever.
>
> So I should or shouldn't be concerned if it freezes
> up?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

Absolutely, you should fix whatever is freezing
the computer.

Avast has AutoSandbox and DeepScreen.

http://www.ghacks.net/2013/08/17/a-first-look-at-avast-free-antivirus-2014/

As far as I know, AutoSandbox is like running a
separate OS in a virtual machine, as a place to
test suspicious executable programs for heuristically
detected behavior.

Regular signature scanning, is the old way of providing
protection. Where every file you access on the computer,
is checked against a signature database. But that is weak
for new malware, which might not be in the signature
database yet. The sandbox idea, is for catching things
that don't have a signature definition yet.

So for "freezing" on the computer, those features, ones
involving Sandbox, are the ones I'd turn off first.

So your test sequence might be:

1) Read your article on Yahoo. Notice at some point,
you have a freeze event.

2) Try to read another story, to confirm that the freeze
events are consistent. You want a repeatable test case.

3) Now, open the Avast control panel, and either turn off
all AV protection, turn off DeepScreen or turn off
something related to Sandbox. Try to figure out which
feature in Avast, causes the problem.

4) Now, read another Yahoo story. Does it freeze now with
the certain thing turned off ? Is the behavior different ?

And remember, that behaviors on a computer can be caused
by the bad guys (malware), the good guys (AV software),
or by defective hardware. When you have an AV product
on-board, it had access to virtually every resource
on the computer, and then your AV product calls the shots.

It could just as easily be a malware doing it.

Take my situation here. Yahoo makes a "very busy" news page.
It kept my processor busy. But, it only used up one core
on my dual core computer. The computer remained responsive,
because the second core is not overloaded like that. As long
as programs are not threaded so well that they can abuse the
whole machine, I'm in good shape.

Now, the AV program, it is responsible for all cores on the
computer. And if the AV program calls for a certain behavior,
it might apply it to your 4C 8T processor and lock the whole
thing up. Things like sandbox technology, require loading
the sandbox off the disk drive, and you could be disk-limited
while that is happening. But if the GUI (desktop) stops responding,
then something "pretty deep" in the machine is doing it.

I've had GUI failures here in WinXP. Where the desktop interface
stops responding entirely. And the machine is not crashed,
because I can issue a "ping" command from a second computer,
and the frozen machine responds. I've also had that happen
when a 3D game crashes, the sound card is looping, and you
hear the same 1-second long sound effect over and over again.
The machine isn't "crashed to a BSOD", it's just the graphics
subsystem which is hosed, and will require a reboot to recover.

I'm just guessing it is Avast, and it's probably a relatively
easy thing to test a few of the settings.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 21st 15, 08:26 AM

Understood, it could be malware, AV or
hardware causing it.

I'm assuming from what your saying is that if
I'm on Yahoo for example and I click a story
and it freezes the 8500, then when it frees it up
click the story again to see if the same thing
happens.

If it does, then go into Avast and disable some
component associated with 'Sandbox' (although how
will I know?). Then try reading the story again to
see if it freezes and repeat until the component
which is causing the freezing is found by process
of elimination. Correct?

In passing I had to remove the Win 10 nag twice
today.

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 21st 15, 09:08 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Understood, it could be malware, AV or
> hardware causing it.
>
> I'm assuming from what your saying is that if
> I'm on Yahoo for example and I click a story
> and it freezes the 8500, then when it frees it up
> click the story again to see if the same thing
> happens.
>
> If it does, then go into Avast and disable some
> component associated with 'Sandbox' (although how
> will I know?). Then try reading the story again to
> see if it freezes and repeat until the component
> which is causing the freezing is found by process
> of elimination. Correct?
>
> In passing I had to remove the Win 10 nag twice
> today.
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

The procedure for the Win10 nag is:

1) Uninstall 583. Reboot.

Look in "Installed Updates" for 583. Uninstall it.
http://cdn3.howtogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ximg_556ddde249634.png.pagespeed.ic.uBt7RqJZLH.png

2) Enter Windows Update (assuming your Windows Update
at least prompts for permission to go ahead). Perhaps
your Windows Update is set to fully automatic ? You
need to bring up the list of updates it proposed to
install, locate 583 in the list, right-click it and
there should be an item "Hide" there. If Windows Update
were to be set to "Full Auto", you won't have a chance
to change the status to "hidden".

"Hide Update"
http://cdn3.howtogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ximg_55731a9a2f7ee.png.pagespeed.ic.YzSvjR8LUx.png

3) Once it is hidden, there should not be a nag. The only way
it can come back if you did (2) correctly, is if Microsoft
reissues the 583 update. As far as I know, 583 is at version 2
at the moment.

The procedure starts half way down this page if you need
more info.

http://www.howtogeek.com/218856/how-do-you-disable-the-get-windows-10-icon-shown-in-the-notification-tray/

If Windows Update settings are left on full Auto, then
583 is going to keep coming back.

Now, when 583 got installed on my system, before it even
had a chance to nag, I happened to have Task Manager open
while working on something else, and I could see either
GWX.exe or GWXux.exe running. Something "Get Windows Ten"
or GWX related, was running on the computer. That's how I
knew it had sneaked in. After removing it, hiding it, so
far it hasn't come back. And one reason for that, is
my Windows Update is on Manual control. I start a Windows
Update run when I have time, I review the proposed updates,
I only tick the ones that appear to have zero impact.
Anything obnoxious gets the "Hide" treatment.

*******

For your "freezing" problem, I don't have any tools
that absolutely guarantee a clue as to what is wrong.
Tools like Avast, I don't know if they can even be
monitored with ETW (the tracing system in Windows).

This program, for example, will show you all sorts
of background activity on the computer. But like so
many things in Windows, it doesn't come with guarantees.
The events might be in Ring0, but any program granted
permission to run in Ring0 (like a driver), can muck
about as it sees fit, and nothing can stop it. If you
want to play with this, in the File menu of the
running program, is a tick box. You remove the tick
to stop collecting data, then you can scroll through
the trace and have a look for anything suspicious. The
events collected have a time stamp. In your case, if the
computer freezes for five seconds, you'd be looking for
a "gap" in the trace, where the computer "went quiet"
for five seconds. That would be proof, that the problem
was so severe, that something had interfered with ETW.

Use the download link that says "911 KB" near the top.

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896645

Unpack the zip and run the EXE. It will start tracing
immediately (if the Filter window gets in the way, just
dismiss it), and the first thing you will see in there,
is as many as 200 Registry accesses per second. Those tend
to be repetitive, and contain things the OS checks once
a second to see if the status of some thing it is supposed
to be doing, has changed. But amidst that flood of
information, sometimes you notice a single event in
the trace, that "gives a hint" as to what is going on.

What you would do, is read a Yahoo story, while
that trace is running - you would expect the
trace on the screen to stop moving. But, if the
tracing engine behind the scenes is still working,
there might be some record as to what process is
doing it. If there seems to be a five second
gap in the time stamps, then the problem is
so low-level, it can't be traced. And only the
AV could do that. It's unlikely to be a bug in
the kernel itself.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 21st 15, 12:27 PM

I forgot to hide it, my fault. Next
time it appears, I'll hide it.

You offer great solutions and links
but as you pointed out it could be
the AV, malware or hardware and since
its intermittent its very difficult
to pin down what exactly is causing it.

I ran the ETW then opened a story on Yahoo
and ETW kept running re: changed numbers.

http://i61.tinypic.com/fefbza.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/jafdpd.jpg

Robert

Mark Twain

July 21st 15, 07:41 PM

The 8500 froze again today while opening
Yahoo mail. It locked everything for a
few seconds. I then exited and then tried
it again with no problems.

Robert

Paul

July 21st 15, 07:59 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I forgot to hide it, my fault. Next
> time it appears, I'll hide it.
>
> You offer great solutions and links
> but as you pointed out it could be
> the AV, malware or hardware and since
> its intermittent its very difficult
> to pin down what exactly is causing it.
>
> I ran the ETW then opened a story on Yahoo
> and ETW kept running re: changed numbers.
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/fefbza.jpg
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/jafdpd.jpg
>
> Robert

For a first trace, you should keep the Filter
window clean. In this example, I have the same
one you selected. Click this and "Remove" it with
the Remove button.

http://i60.tinypic.com/t8sndh.gif

When the trace runs, the File menu has a tick box next
to "Capture". If you select "Capture" from the menu, the
tracing stops. And then you can, at your leisure,
scroll around in there and look at stuff. You would
stop the trace, after your freezing event had happened.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2lkfccx.gif

Now, in the trace in that example, I've already encountered
something weird. My browser Firefox, is poking a file it
downloaded eons ago. Why is it doing that ? Who knows :-)

The thing is, that trace collects a torrent of data. In the
last trace window, you can see that some events collected,
are only 10 microseconds apart in time. So the potential amount
of information collected is huge.

You use the Filter dialog, and the various filter types,
to restrict the things you see on the screen. If you suspect
a certain kind of thing happens, maybe you go looking for
that specific thing.

At this point, I really don't know what to expect, which
is why I'm trying to see as much as I can, even if it's
an overwhelming amount of data. You're looking for a
"pattern" to suggest what is happening during the freeze
period.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 22nd 15, 11:08 AM

The Win 10 nag came back but it doesn't have
a box and when I right click it it only has
uninstall:

http://i61.tinypic.com/iqlvky.jpg

I think I deleted the process profiling that
you showed in your example but viewing the ETW
screen itself is rather confusing. I've tried
playing around with it but I really don't know
what I'm doing or looking for.

I was able to stop the tracing but the numbers on
the bottom kept running so I assume that's normal.

I can see my search queries like checking a library
book out/in but other than that it doesn't make much
sense to me.

Robert

Mark Twain

July 22nd 15, 11:31 AM

Just ordered the external HD and case you
recommended.

I'll let you know when they arrive.

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 22nd 15, 09:18 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> The Win 10 nag came back but it doesn't have
> a box and when I right click it it only has
> uninstall:
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/iqlvky.jpg
>
> I think I deleted the process profiling that
> you showed in your example but viewing the ETW
> screen itself is rather confusing. I've tried
> playing around with it but I really don't know
> what I'm doing or looking for.
>
> I was able to stop the tracing but the numbers on
> the bottom kept running so I assume that's normal.
>
> I can see my search queries like checking a library
> book out/in but other than that it doesn't make much
> sense to me.
>
> Robert

The tool you downloaded is called Process Monitor.

It uses the ETW tracing system, to collect events of
significant from the running computer.

In the File dialog, there is a tick box. You remove
the tick box, when you want to "stop tracing". The
numbers at the bottom should stop incrementing when you
do that. It should not continue adding elements to the
trace, once the trace is switched off from the File menu.

To clean the trace (the "stopped" trace), go to the
Edit menu and look for a clear option. That will make
the window empty again.

To start another trace running, go back to the File
menu, and select the same item as before. It will become
ticked, and the trace will start running again.

In one of the middle menus, there is a Filter dialog.
It filters what is shown in the display. When working
on a new, unique problem, typically you turn off the
filter events. To avoid confusion, you can use the
"Remove" button in there, to remove things you
don't need as filters.

Once you start the trace running, you would read your
Yahoo news stories, and get the computer to freeze again.
When the computer is unfrozen again, race over to the
Process Monitor window, go to File, and untick the
ticked item, to stop the trace. The numbers at
the bottom should stop growing.

I don't know what to expect in the trace. Obviously,
there will be items labeled with "Firefox", because
when you started browsing the Yahoo site, there will
be Firefox activity in the log. When Firefox pulls in
the Yahoo files, to present the news story on the
screen, there will be Createfile and Writefile
operations. As Firefox loads downloaded stuff into
the Firefox cache.

But what happens after that, I can't really predict
what is going to be in the trace. And there isn't
a simple way for you to describe and summarize what
is in that trace window. There is just too much data.

While you can Save and keep trace files, and other
people can open them, the files are huge, and not
suited for any sort of transport.

And I don't want you trying to Tinypic all the
trace windows either :-) That would take *thousands*
of pictures, to transfer the whole trace. Don't
do that. Only if you have the causative
event in a window, would taking *one* Tinypic
shot of it, make sense.

Using the time stamps in the left hand column,
plus the names of executables, that's about all
I can recommend looking at, for some hint as to
what is going on. I feel this is your AV program
(Avast), but that's purely a guess on my part.
And if Avast is doing it, there isn't even going
to be an entry in the Process Monitor trace, with
Avast in the name. As Avast can out-fox the
Process Monitor if it wants to. Just as a rootkit
could stay hidden, with enough effort (rootkit
modifies ETW subsystem to make it "blind").

So if the five second freeze period, is
filled with svchost or named_program items
of some sort, then we know it's an "ordinary"
problem. If the trace doesn't collect any data
for five seconds, that suggests something in
Ring0 did it. Or SMM. So what the trace
then tells us, is the "class" of the
perpetrator. Rather than guaranteeing
a resolution to the problem. So if the trace
doesn't collect anything during those five seconds,
it's probably not an adware, or a Firefox problem
etc. It's something lower down.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 23rd 15, 02:21 AM

You make it sound easy but that's allot of
information for me to swallow and I just
wonder why is it doing it now since I've
had Avast for a long time.

From what you say I have to keep at this
until I find out what it is and that may be
never.

Seems every time I pose a question I open a
can of worms.

Robert

Mark Twain

July 23rd 15, 02:38 AM

About the Win 10 nag which doesn't have
the hide option. What do I do about that?

I suppose I could just leave it there and
forget about it.

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 23rd 15, 03:48 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> About the Win 10 nag which doesn't have
> the hide option. What do I do about that?
>
> I suppose I could just leave it there and
> forget about it.
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

You could. As long as you don't
agree to an upgrade, nothing
should happen.

Paul

Paul

July 23rd 15, 03:56 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> You make it sound easy but that's allot of
> information for me to swallow and I just
> wonder why is it doing it now since I've
> had Avast for a long time.
>
> From what you say I have to keep at this
> until I find out what it is and that may be
> never.
>
> Seems every time I pose a question I open a
> can of worms.
>
> Robert

Well, what other choices are available ?

Your situation doesn't present enough
curious symptoms, to find an answer in Google.
There's no nifty error message, nothing to
dig into.

If you type "computer freeze" into a Google search,
you'll get a gazillion irrelevant results, many
of which are related to bad RAM, bad power
supply, poorly maintained computers and so on.
I don't think any of those results are relevant.

I need some kind of hint, as to what is going on.
Looking in Administrative Tools control panel and
Event Viewer, maybe something is in there. But I
wouldn't bet my life on it. Since it eventually
un-freezes, maybe no actual error is associated
with the event.

Looking with a tracing tool like Process Monitor,
is the only way I know of, of generating *some*
kind of log I can trust. With no error message,
I have no other place to look. I didn't select
Process Monitor for its "fun aspects". It's
for cases where you have nothing else to go on.

Paul

[email protected]

July 23rd 15, 11:52 AM

On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 22:48:21 -0400, Paul > wrote:

>> About the Win 10 nag which doesn't have
>> the hide option. What do I do about that?

You mean to say that Windows 10 has nag screens? Hasn't Microsoft
learned anything yet..... They should know we all hate nag screens.

Well, that's reason enough for me to NEVER INSTALL WINDOWS 10 !!!

----

Which reminds me. I hate facebook and will never get my own account.
Unfortunately I have to occasionally access that miserable P.O.S. for an
organization, and this week I got stuck with the job because no one else
with a computer was around.

So, I get on the FB page, and an ad pops up on the right side, with a
picture of Mark Zuckerberg, says his name and "Founder of Facebook".
Then it says "I only have 2 friends, and I would like you to be my
friend".

After reading it about the third time, I came close to ****ing in my
pants from laughter... If it was April 1, I'd take this as a joke, but
it's not.... How that got there is beyond me. All I can think is that
someone posted it as a paid ad. But why? Either someone has a lot of
spare time and money and posted it as a joke, or else it's a link for
some sort of malware.... I never click on any of that crap, so I was not
going to do it now. Most of the time I go on there, I just post the text
info I am supposed to post, read the latest (usually off topic) garbage
others post, and get the hell out of there.

Of course if Mark Z. really wants to be my friend, he better cough up
some of those billions of dollars he has!!! My wallet has room for at
least a few million.... :)

Paul

July 23rd 15, 01:31 PM

wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 22:48:21 -0400, Paul > wrote:
>
>>> About the Win 10 nag which doesn't have
>>> the hide option. What do I do about that?
>
> You mean to say that Windows 10 has nag screens? Hasn't Microsoft
> learned anything yet..... They should know we all hate nag screens.
>
> Well, that's reason enough for me to NEVER INSTALL WINDOWS 10 !!!
>
> ----
>
> Which reminds me. I hate facebook and will never get my own account.
> Unfortunately I have to occasionally access that miserable P.O.S. for an
> organization, and this week I got stuck with the job because no one else
> with a computer was around.
>
> So, I get on the FB page, and an ad pops up on the right side, with a
> picture of Mark Zuckerberg, says his name and "Founder of Facebook".
> Then it says "I only have 2 friends, and I would like you to be my
> friend".
>
> After reading it about the third time, I came close to ****ing in my
> pants from laughter... If it was April 1, I'd take this as a joke, but
> it's not.... How that got there is beyond me. All I can think is that
> someone posted it as a paid ad. But why? Either someone has a lot of
> spare time and money and posted it as a joke, or else it's a link for
> some sort of malware.... I never click on any of that crap, so I was not
> going to do it now. Most of the time I go on there, I just post the text
> info I am supposed to post, read the latest (usually off topic) garbage
> others post, and get the hell out of there.
>
> Of course if Mark Z. really wants to be my friend, he better cough up
> some of those billions of dollars he has!!! My wallet has room for at
> least a few million.... :)

"get the hell out of there"

That would be my reaction.

Maybe if you clog up the page with
enough cat pictures, they'll give the
job to someone else :-)

Paul

Mark Twain

July 23rd 15, 03:49 PM

Your right,

I'll re-read your instructions; and
let you know of any changes or questions.

As I said I've ordered the HD and case
and will let you know when they arive.

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain

July 24th 15, 01:22 AM

The 8500 froze again today for a few
seconds when I attempted to open a
Yahoo email.

I hadn't re-read your instructions before
deleting it but in that regard, is there
some way that I can pin the Process Monitor
to the desktop without having to download it
each and every time?

So, if I can confirm a story or email that
freezes consistently. Then I open Process
Monitor, but exactly what am I looking for
that would be considered suspicious? Like a
profiling comment?

What is Ring0?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 24th 15, 05:15 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> The 8500 froze again today for a few
> seconds when I attempted to open a
> Yahoo email.
>
> I hadn't re-read your instructions before
> deleting it but in that regard, is there
> some way that I can pin the Process Monitor
> to the desktop without having to download it
> each and every time?
>
> So, if I can confirm a story or email that
> freezes consistently. Then I open Process
> Monitor, but exactly what am I looking for
> that would be considered suspicious? Like a
> profiling comment?
>
> What is Ring0?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

Ring0 and Ring3, are part of the processor
security model.

Ring0 is an area of privilege. You can do whatever
you want down there.

Ring3 is where user programs live. User programs
cannot access hardware directly. Instead, the programs
call the kernel for their services.

So rather than programs doing things directly, they
go through an agent of sorts.

Now, say I'm a malware program. I've come in via Firefox,
which is a program running in Ring3. Maybe I have the
same permissions as Firefox. I ask the kernel "write this
bad thing in the MBR for me". The kernel refuses.
However, if the malware runs as Administrator, the kernel
may grant the request.

If everything ran in the same security ring, it would
be much easier to tip over the OS.

*******

When you download the file from here, it is a ZIP file.

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896645

ProcessMonitor.zip

OK, go to the folder where you saved that.
Double click it, to "go inside".

Now, look over to the upper left in File Explorer.
You should see:

Folders/Task

Extract all files

Click that option, and the three files inside the
ZIP file should be extracted. The wizard may prompt you
for a folder to put them in. It should be in your downloads
area.

Now, any time you go to that folder, the program
is waiting for you.

What can be confusing sometimes, is Windows allows you
to do two different things.

If you click this, you can explore it like it was a folder.
If you clock the EXE file that shows in this folder, it can
be extracted and executed.

ProcessMonitor.zip

If instead, you go to the extracted folder,
things look much the same. But the difference is,
here the EXE is already extracted. You get
fewer complaints (depending on situation), if
the file is sitting there already extracted.

ProcessMonitor\Procmon.exe

I usually extract my files one way or another,
and toss the ZIP. Only in certain cases would
I keep the ZIP for later (if I'm downloading
source code perhaps).

You shouldn't have to download it over and over
again. It should be stable. And you can keep
it housed in its own folder (as a means to
jog your memory).

*******

When it comes to testing computer problems,
"consistenty" and "timeliness" are the things
you hope for. If a problem exists, you want it
to be reproducible in seconds. Any problem which
is erratic, hard to reproduce, you're never going
to solve that without a lot of luck.

I'm going to draw a fake Process Monitor trace.

9:23:49 Firefox ReadFile
9:23:50 Firefox ReadFile
9:23:51 Avast (Some call we didn't expect)

9:23:57 Firefox ReadFile
9:23:58 Firefox ReadFile
...

OK, so when I look at that trace, first I notice
there is a six second gap in the trace. The computer
is seemingly completely silent for six seconds.

Now, I look back just before the silent part. The
last thing to operate on the computer, was some
Avast code. And maybe the operation is some IOCTL,
some weird thing I don't expect. I have a suspicion
that whatever Avast did, it upset the kernel handling
it. Maybe a log was generated somewhere. Or, maybe not.
In some cases, if you scroll further down the log,
you might see a WriteFile to the log file itself.

The hard part is, if you left the trace running all day
long, it would probably exhaust all system memory
in ten to fifteen minutes. That means, as a computer
scientist, you need to re-create the freezing problem
in that ten minute period. The problem needs to be
that consistent.

And to help with later reading of the trace,
you race over to the File menu, and untick the
box to stop the trace. Why ? So you know the gap
in time, if it exists, is at the end of the trace.
Say the trace is ten minutes long and has a million
ReadFile things stored in it. Do you want to read
all of those ? Of course not. You want to read the
last ten or fifteen seconds worth of the trace. Being
efficient at stopping the trace, makes it easier
to scroll back and spot stuff.

Depending on the problem, sometimes you do need a bit
more post-trace history. Maybe something important happens
twenty seconds after the freeze. But for a first trace,
we're not interested in solving all the worlds problems.
For a first trace, we trace everything (no filter), and
we hope that *something* odd was captured in the trace.
If the trace looks perfectly ordinary, just "uniform
computer noises" in there, then some other technique
will be needed.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 24th 15, 05:54 AM

I understand how to get the Process
Monitor now, just go to downloads and
extract it. I was getting tired of all
those downloads *s*

The problem is that so far it is erratic
but I will continue to try and see if I
can lock it down.

The HD and case arrived! I haven't opened
either yet and thought I would ask you first
if there's anything I should look for or do?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 24th 15, 08:31 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I understand how to get the Process
> Monitor now, just go to downloads and
> extract it. I was getting tired of all
> those downloads *s*
>
> The problem is that so far it is erratic
> but I will continue to try and see if I
> can lock it down.
>
> The HD and case arrived! I haven't opened
> either yet and thought I would ask you first
> if there's anything I should look for or do?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

It should be screwdriver assembly.

It might have a power switch on it. In which
case, you can set it to the OFF position for
starters.

Plug in the USB connector to the computer.
If you flip the power switch to ON (with
adapter connected to the wall), it receives
power, but the enclosure LED does not come
on right away.

It might take a second or two, for the USB
cable state to get the enclosure running.
Then, you'll see the LED come on. The
drive should be spinning at this point.

The drive, might not have a partition on
it yet. Find the Disk Management (diskmgmt.msc)
utility, and there should be a new blank disk
with no partition, showing in Disk Management.
It may prompt to have the disk identifier written
to it. It'll say "Basic Disk" on the left
of the Disk Management window when you do that.
It should not say "Dynamic Disk". Then, you can
create a new partition there, format it NTFS
and so on.

Now, say that later, you're done with it. There
are two ways to shut down.

You can shut down the PC the regular Windows way.
Windows will send the spin down command to the
drive. The enclosure LED goes off.

Or, you can use the "Safely Remove' icon in the
lower right corner. Sometimes, that icon is in
the notification area, in the "excess icon" area.
If you select Safely Remove, more than one disk
may be listed. Select the disk you just prepared
and request removal. The LED should go off
(while the computer continues running).

Now, you can switch off the power using the switch
on the enclosure. By switching off the power (while
the drive is not spinning), it can't spin again.
And it's going to be safer to handle, with the
power in the OFF position.

The general idea is, you don't want to shake the
drive around while the LED is on. Or switch the
drive off while the LED is on. By using Safely
Remove or shutting down the OS, the LED goes off
indicating the OS knows it's not supposed to be
running any more. And you can move the slide switch
to OFF, to ensure it stays off.

Sometimes this screws up, you shut down a laptop
with a drive like that. The LED goes off and the
LED comes back on again. Try not to shake the
drive too much while turning off the power. For
the most part, the Safely Remove scheme works pretty
well, and on a desktop system, when the LED goes off,
it should stay off.

This is a lot harder to explain, that just using it :-)

Paul

Mark Twain

July 24th 15, 08:17 PM

I thought you would be interested in seeing
the case:

http://i59.tinypic.com/1znse4x.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/242iq7p.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/10h5zib.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/setv68.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/2ufyv69.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/2lmvry1.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/11hgl1h.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/142u81x.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/25kpvrs.jpg

It weighed fairly heavy for its size and I could
also unscrew the fan side so it seems I can exchange
it if it goes bad. I see what you mean about those
large plastic sockets but the pop-out panel seems to
have electronics on the other side blocking it and
they offer no diagrams or instructions.

I prefer the safely remove option when dismounting
external HD's, Flash drives; seems safer.

Before installation, I'll check in here first to see
if you have any comments and then put the HD in tonight
and hopefully, I won't encounter any problems.

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain

July 24th 15, 08:24 PM

The 8500 froze again when trying to open
a Yahoo email. After it freed up I tried
it again and nothing.

Robert

Paul

July 24th 15, 08:31 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> The 8500 froze again when trying to open
> a Yahoo email. After it freed up I tried
> it again and nothing.
>
>
> Robert

You should start Process Monitor running, just
before visiting Yahoo for a fresh news story,
and see if you can capture a trace of it.

Paul

Paul

July 24th 15, 08:44 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I thought you would be interested in seeing
> the case:
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/1znse4x.jpg
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/242iq7p.jpg
>
> http://i62.tinypic.com/10h5zib.jpg
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/setv68.jpg
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/2ufyv69.jpg
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/2lmvry1.jpg
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/11hgl1h.jpg
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/142u81x.jpg
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/25kpvrs.jpg
>
> It weighed fairly heavy for its size and I could
> also unscrew the fan side so it seems I can exchange
> it if it goes bad. I see what you mean about those
> large plastic sockets but the pop-out panel seems to
> have electronics on the other side blocking it and
> they offer no diagrams or instructions.
>
> I prefer the safely remove option when dismounting
> external HD's, Flash drives; seems safer.
>
> Before installation, I'll check in here first to see
> if you have any comments and then put the HD in tonight
> and hopefully, I won't encounter any problems.
>
> Thanks,
> Robert
>

I see one screw that holds the perforated metal tray
in place. But I don't understand what holds the
drive stable in there. For example, if you were
carrying the enclosure around the room, and
inverted it 180 degrees (so you could see the
fan on the bottom of it), what prevents the
drive from flopping around ?

Drives come in various thicknesses. Four or six platter
drives are going to be thicker than single platter
500GB drives. And something has to hold the drive in
place.

Drives can have holes on the bottom. The trays on
my Antec computer case, use those holes to hold a disk.

And if you have a 3.5" to 5.25" U-rail kit, those
use holes on the sides of the drive.

I see one screw to hold the tray in place - a Phillips
head. But I'm not seeing much else that can be used
to hold the drive.

I suppose the bag of screws that came with it, will
hint at how many mount points they intend to use.

While they could just allow you to lay the drive
in the tray, then you have to be careful to keep the
tray upright. And not change the orientation of
the enclosure enough, to encourage the disk drive
to fall out of the tray.

Using the power supply, you should be able to power
up the enclosure with no disk in it, and see what
kind of airflow the fan produces. With the cover on,
you can check to see what kind of airflow
comes out of the exhaust vents (on the ends?).

I also see what looks like a plastic sheet over
the surface of one end of the drive bay. Presumably
to prevent electrical contact between the controller board
in the enclosure, and the disk drive. And no obvious
fastener holding it down. It must be a very clever
design, to hide all this stuff.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 25th 15, 12:56 AM

I'll be sure to do that next time. Maybe I
leave it open the next few sessions or so?

Robert

Mark Twain

July 25th 15, 01:44 AM

What holds the HD in is a tab which is covered
in foam on the left in the first picture. it swings
up out of the way so you can put the HD in.

However it was a very snug fit and the arm now can't
swing down to lock it in place. See pics.

There was also a square connector with prongs
that had nothing connected to (see pics)

http://i59.tinypic.com/25kpvrs.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/2usehyb.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/64mmv4.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/w7eedd.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/2dtan0i.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/2qcmu5e.jpg

So I guess I have to buy another case and I'm
worried about damaging the HD when I remove it
because they are supposedly fragile.

Since I have to buy another case can we made
it dark blue or red?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 25th 15, 03:10 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> What holds the HD in is a tab which is covered
> in foam on the left in the first picture. it swings
> up out of the way so you can put the HD in.
>
> However it was a very snug fit and the arm now can't
> swing down to lock it in place. See pics.
>
> There was also a square connector with prongs
> that had nothing connected to (see pics)
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/25kpvrs.jpg
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/2usehyb.jpg
>
> http://i62.tinypic.com/64mmv4.jpg
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/w7eedd.jpg
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/2dtan0i.jpg
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/2qcmu5e.jpg
>
> So I guess I have to buy another case and I'm
> worried about damaging the HD when I remove it
> because they are supposedly fragile.
>
> Since I have to buy another case can we made
> it dark blue or red?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

I think this mechanism, works the same way as a laptop bay.

+--------------------------------------------+
| |
| Tab Lay drive here 2x4 jumper |
| End Slide forward ---> block (NC) |
| so 22 pin |
| section Connector 7 pin data |
| mates End --> 15 pin power|
| |
+--------------------------------------------+

When drive is slid to the right in that diagram, the
SATA backplane style connector goes into the drive
connector. It's a slide action mating. It might slide
a tenth of an inch or two, giving more room for the
tab on the left to rotate into position.

Now, there should be clearance for the tab to rotate
into the retaining position.

+--------------------------------------------+
| ----+ |
| Tab | 2x4 jumper |
| End | block (NC) |
| v |
| rotate Connector 7 pin data |
| tab End 15 pin power|
| down |
+--------------------------------------------+

I'm pretty sure you've done this and I just
can't see the details in the picture.

My WD black drive is 1.0" thick.

A lower capacity Seagate drive is 0.75" thick.

It should have room to hold a 1" drive, as it makes
claims about supporting large capacity drives, and
really large drives don't come in 0.75" packages.
A 1" drive should be able to hold 4 platters.

Both drives, the SATA connector is pretty well right
along the bottom seating plane. This is so the drives
can be slide into 25-bay server boxes. The design was
always intended for servers, with desktop computers
as an afterthought.

The 2x4 jumper block is a "No-Connect". You don't need
to connect any jumpers to it. The 2x4 jumper block
on the WD drive uses 0.1" jumpers. While the block on
a Seagate drive uses 2mm jumpers. Typical functions
for the jumper block would include "force interface to
lower SATA speed" and "turn off spread spectrum clock".
Neither should be necessary in this case.

Now, if you haven't jammed something up, rotate the
tab out of the way, and see if the drive slides
to the right, causing the connector to mate.

The sliding action is likely to scratch and mark up
the plastic liner on the connector end of the bay.

*******

The WD Black does have another small plastic opening
to the right of the 22 pin electrical section, but that
might be for the special WD connector no one uses. The
WD drive also has a deep square hole just above the
22 pin section, and that is non-standard as well. But
in this application, should not cause a problem. On
desktop computers, the deep square hole above the connector,
typically prevents some SATA cable retainers from holding
with full strength.

*******

This is the special WD SecureConnect cable which nobody
uses. The extra plastic bits, hold the connector
securely when inserted. You don't need one of those.
And that particular one, is from when WD drives had
a Molex connector on the very right corner of the
drive housing. Now, there's a hole where the Molex section
used to be. The power now, comes through the 15 pin
section. The early WD drives were dual power, drawing
power through 1x4 Molex, or from 15-pin section, but not
both. (For some reason, they didn't want you using both
for power.)

http://media.ldlc.com/ld3/300/2005/LD0000472843.jpg

*******

I see no "Advanced Format" label on the drive, so
the one you bought should be 512e. The ones I have
here, are the previous generation FAEX drives, which
are 512n. The last, truly native 512 byte drives.
That's why I bought them. All my Seagate are 512e and
I have yet to have a problem getting them to work in
stuff. (Everything I own, works with WinXP.) Only the
Advanced Format ones would be a problem for my usage
pattern.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 25th 15, 04:51 AM

I've mated the HD to the connector but
the tab will not close.

I'm not understanding what you mean by
sliding the HD to the right but I tried
it anyway and it won't budge in any
direction.

As I said, it was an extremely tight fit
getting it in.

Thoughts/Suggestions
Robert

Paul

July 25th 15, 08:21 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I've mated the HD to the connector but
> the tab will not close.
>
> I'm not understanding what you mean by
> sliding the HD to the right but I tried
> it anyway and it won't budge in any
> direction.
>
> As I said, it was an extremely tight fit
> getting it in.
>
> Thoughts/Suggestions
> Robert

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817707227

"Easy to open, just two screws that includes mounting the drive.

Just open the case and the drive is held by friction.

There is a lever that wedges the drive in place.

For lower profile drive there are *spacers* included <---
to make sure it is held firmly in place.

The I/O performance is good over the USB 3.0 link. I'm not using
the fastest of drive but it is close to the expected throughput.

The fan is very quiet but not silent. This drive was getting
quite hot in the previous enclosure I had been using."

Check to see if the spacers for a thinner drive,
as still in place on the tab that rotates
into place. That would make for a tight fit.
Without the spacer, there should be more room.

When objects have as much black material as that
thing has, it makes it hard for me to see stuff in
pictures. If there are spacers there, I can't see them.

One other review says the drive is a "friction fit".
That's not what I had in mind. I thought it used
screws. Drives should be treated with respect.

I guess this is what happens when a product doesn't
come with instructions. We're supposed to stay far away :-(

Paul

Paul

July 25th 15, 08:52 AM

Paul wrote:
> Mark Twain wrote:
>> I've mated the HD to the connector but the tab will not close.
>> I'm not understanding what you mean by sliding the HD to the right but
>> I tried
>> it anyway and it won't budge in any direction.
>> As I said, it was an extremely tight fit getting it in.
>> Thoughts/Suggestions
>> Robert
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817707227
>
> "Easy to open, just two screws that includes mounting the drive.
>
> Just open the case and the drive is held by friction.
>
> There is a lever that wedges the drive in place.
>
> For lower profile drive there are *spacers* included <---
> to make sure it is held firmly in place.
>
> The I/O performance is good over the USB 3.0 link. I'm not using
> the fastest of drive but it is close to the expected throughput.
>
> The fan is very quiet but not silent. This drive was getting
> quite hot in the previous enclosure I had been using."
>
> Check to see if the spacers for a thinner drive,
> as still in place on the tab that rotates
> into place. That would make for a tight fit.
> Without the spacer, there should be more room.
>
> When objects have as much black material as that
> thing has, it makes it hard for me to see stuff in
> pictures. If there are spacers there, I can't see them.
>
> One other review says the drive is a "friction fit".
> That's not what I had in mind. I thought it used
> screws. Drives should be treated with respect.
>
> I guess this is what happens when a product doesn't
> come with instructions. We're supposed to stay far away :-(
>
> Paul

And from the product page...

http://www.startech.com/HDD/Enclosures/35in-SuperSpeed-USB-3-SATA-External-Hard-Drive-Enclosure-with-Fan~SAT3510BU3

What's in the Box
Included in Package
1 - USB 3.0 SATA 3.5in Hard Drive Enclosure
1 - Foam Spacer <--- check where this went...
1 - 3ft USB 3.0 Cable
1 - Universal Power Adapter
3 - Power Adapter Plug (NA/UK/EU)
1 - Instruction Manual

HTH,
Paul

Mark Twain

July 25th 15, 09:18 AM

Well, it did come with instructions:
I was suppose to be able to lift the
tab and insert the HD and close the
tab locking the HD in place. The HD
is too big or the case is too small,
either way but the tab will not close
to lock in place.

The spacers they are referring to
are those (4) items in the bag I
was speaking of.

The lock down tab is to the left in
the picture with foam on top. The
connector is to the right.

In the center of the picture is a
red wire for the fan and just to the
left of that is a piece of foam and
directly opposite (bottom) you can
make out the other one. Those are the
spacers it had which made it a very
tight fit.

http://i59.tinypic.com/25kpvrs.jpg

This shows it mated to the connector:

http://i60.tinypic.com/w7eedd.jpg

So what are we to do? Order another case?

Robert

Mark Twain

July 25th 15, 12:07 PM

Good News!!!!! I got it to work!@!@!

I kept thinking your not often wrong
and kept going over the spacers and how
tight it was getting it in.

I decided to remove the HD and try it
again. Maybe I did something wrong? Well,
when trying to remove it the top foam spacer
adhesive had stuck to it! So I cut it off
and removed the spacer (which just peeled
off).

I then tried the HD again and this time with
a little tweeking it went in and the tab
lowered! The tab also had a small foam spacer
on the underside which really snugged down on
the HD so that its not going anywhere.

I then connected everything and the 8500 recognized
it immediately but when I went to create a new
partition the option wasn't there? I love the
blue light when its on,... very cool I didn't
expect that!

http://i58.tinypic.com/2v0oaom.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/2lvxml3.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/ih4arn.jpg

By the way is it ok to have the external HD
vertical or should it alwys be flat? I only ask
because the fan is on the bottom.

At present, I made a stand out of the cardboard
box the HD came in with upside down 'V' notches
on the bottom for airflow and I put the case on
top of that but the USB cord isn't long enough
so whenever I have to use it I have to move it
closer to the 8500.

Its not all that critical since I'll only be using
this HD as storage for the 8500.

Thanks
Robert

Paul

July 25th 15, 12:23 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Well, it did come with instructions:
> I was suppose to be able to lift the
> tab and insert the HD and close the
> tab locking the HD in place. The HD
> is too big or the case is too small,
> either way but the tab will not close
> to lock in place.
>
> The spacers they are referring to
> are those (4) items in the bag I
> was speaking of.
>
> The lock down tab is to the left in
> the picture with foam on top. The
> connector is to the right.
>
> In the center of the picture is a
> red wire for the fan and just to the
> left of that is a piece of foam and
> directly opposite (bottom) you can
> make out the other one. Those are the
> spacers it had which made it a very
> tight fit.
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/25kpvrs.jpg
>
> This shows it mated to the connector:
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/w7eedd.jpg
>
> So what are we to do? Order another case?
>
> Robert

OK, in terms of the height dimension, my supplier has
data that isn't in the Startech web page.

"1/3H Internal - Serial ATA (SAT3510BU3)"

http://www.startech.com/HDD/Enclosures/35in-SuperSpeed-USB-3-SATA-External-Hard-Drive-Enclosure-with-Fan~SAT3510BU3

The Startech page doesn't mention it is 1/3rd height.

Full height 5.25" and 3.5", many years ago, were 3.25" high.

So 1/3rd height, is 3.25/3 = 1.083".

And your new drive is likely to be very close to that.
In other words, you're at "max height" for the enclosure.
I don't think you're exceeding the spec, you're just
at the expected limit of the unit. You're using a 1/3H drive.

But that doesn't change the issue with the tab on the end.

The tab has a heel on it, and the heel looks like it
defines a radius as it rotates. It's going to strike
the top edge of the 1" drive a bit higher, than if a
0.75" drive is present. Because the body of the drive, on
the end, doesn't conform to a radius. It's a flat
vertical surface.

Well, you're my eyes and ears here. And I can't tell
how tight a fit the thing is. I do know that the Black
drives are "full sized" and aren't short on any dimension.
So if any drive is going to bind, it'll be the Black drive.

I have another idea, but I don't want to "frankenstein" a
brand new product if I can help it. If you look at
the metal tray, there are two "buttons" on either sides.
Those happen to line up with the middle column of screw
holes on the bottom of the drive. The "buttons" stick up,
so that they will press on the barrel of the threaded screw
holes. That's because the drive doesn't have a "seating plane"
in that area. But, at least for old drives, they can press where
the screws go, because the screw holes will be there.

If you removed the buttons, you could use actual screws in their
place, holding the drive to the tray. Then you wouldn't need
the clamp on the end to hold the drive in position.

The problem with their idea, is that brand new drives
(the 6TB ones), are actually missing the middle holes.
They've been removed. So there is an alternate hole
pattern for hard drives, and it would not work as well
with that housing.

The thing is, I was trying to avoid an expensive enclosure.

At one time, they sold 5.25" enclosures. Those are
huge, but, they have the advantage that installing a
3.5" drives in them, they're "swimming" with space.
Trouble is, I couldn't find a good one for sale. I have
an older 5.25" enclosure next to me, and I've had both
3.5" hard drives and 5.25" optical drives in it.

At the 3.5" level of enclosure design, the temptation
is to fit them like a glove. I was hoping a fan-equipped
enclosure would not use that approach - of cocooning the drive
and roasting it.

I can find a couple enclosures with 40mm end-mounted
fans. I have *extensive* experience with that design
approach. The fan is *loud* and *useless*. I've had
fans, where I opened the enclosure, and there was a
puddle of oil underneath the 40mm fan. That's because
they're sleeve bearing fans, the fan costs $1, the sleeve
is not sealed (not like an FDB bearing or a Panaflo).
I used to replace those fans immediately, with expensive
fans from a local electronics store. I wouldn't touch
that concept with a barge-pole. That's why I tried to
get an 80mm fan, because the design can't possibly
be as bad as the "token" 40mm fans.

In looking for a replacement, I ran into this one.
The design looks very similar to the one you have.
It has optional foam spacers, the difference being,
you can see them being positioned in the provided instructions.
And the plastic part shown in their diagram, isn't
the same design as yours. I expect they just took
shortcuts when writing the manual.

http://www.vantecusa.com/system/application/media/data_file/nst-386s3_qig1.pdf

I like this concept for mounting SATA drives. As
the drives slide into the bay, then the front plate
presses on the face of the drive to prevent it
from shifting. But for this particular unit, there
are no reviews, the fan is a bit on the small side
(and likely noisy), and there is a 20MB RAID driver
offered for download. I can't tell if it will
JBOD (Just a Bunch Of Disks) with one drive without
a fuss or not. JBOD is when you run a RAID product,
in a non-RAID mode, and each disk is independent of
the others.

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/A1DS_130820320187303819hFWQN3KjRJ.jpg

I don't really see any alternative that is perfect.
A few of them, the reviews show "bad power adapter"
as a common problem. One of the reasons for selecting
Startech, is I don't expect them to pull that trick.
Then there were a few with the 40mm fans, and I
can't subject you to that torture. There was one
enclosure with an 80mm fan with speed control, but
one reviewer reported the speed control died on his.

And this is not the first time I've come up blank
on an enclosure selection exercise. It's that hard
picking winners... Of all the enclosures I've got
here, there is only the one that was a reasonable
choice. I have four others with various issues,
that I wouldn't want anyone else buying one. The
one I like, is out of production, and it only
takes IDE drives. So that doesn't fit your situation
at all.

*******

OK, one last try. It's the blue light special :-)
The blue light can be switched off.

"Thermaltake ST0020U" $49
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153141

This one uses a "side lock", rather than an end lock.
The user manual is a download button next to the red Acrobat PDF icon.
And you can see how it installs. The unit comes with a hex screwdriver,
to reinstall the two top screws for the enclosure.

http://www.thermaltake.com/products-model_support.aspx?id=C_00001666

Now, what don't I know about it ? I cannot find a spec for
the maximum thickness of drive. It uses 15mm fans, and
enclosure outer dimension is 47mm. That leaves 32mm for
thickness_of_side_plastics plus drive thickness. So a
25mm drive ("1/3H") probably fits, but I don't have
that in writing.

The product was introduced in 2011, and by now probably
uses a different USB3 chip. No review so far, mentions
the chip. On some enclosures, the electronics board is
flipped so you can't immediately report what you find there.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 25th 15, 01:20 PM

As a matter of fact the tab/spacer
was striking the end of the HD and
that was what I meant by a little
'tweeking' to get it to close/lock.

I didn't want to force it down on
the HD and damage it so I kept playing
with it but it is very snug. In any
case it did power up and the 8500
recognized it.

I'm happy with it now that I have it
working and I actually like the blue
light. I guess you misunderstood me or
I phrased it wrong but I like it allot.

Its funny because until you mentioned
fans I didn't even think about that.
Meaning it was so quiet that I didn't
even notice!

In passing, I leave the USB cable
connected to the external HD versus
connecting/reconnecting which over time
may, or may not cause issues.

This way, I can just plug it in when
needed. I have it stored on a shelf
(along with the modem) under the desk
on its stand.

So, I guess I can go ahead and finish
installation and select 'New Simple Volume'
for a new partition since all the others
are called 'Simple Basic'.

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 25th 15, 01:32 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Good News!!!!! I got it to work!@!@!
>
> I kept thinking your not often wrong
> and kept going over the spacers and how
> tight it was getting it in.
>
> I decided to remove the HD and try it
> again. Maybe I did something wrong? Well,
> when trying to remove it the top foam spacer
> adhesive had stuck to it! So I cut it off
> and removed the spacer (which just peeled
> off).
>
> I then tried the HD again and this time with
> a little tweeking it went in and the tab
> lowered! The tab also had a small foam spacer
> on the underside which really snugged down on
> the HD so that its not going anywhere.
>
> I then connected everything and the 8500 recognized
> it immediately but when I went to create a new
> partition the option wasn't there? I love the
> blue light when its on,... very cool I didn't
> expect that!
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/2v0oaom.jpg
>
> http://i62.tinypic.com/2lvxml3.jpg
>
> http://i57.tinypic.com/ih4arn.jpg
>
> By the way is it ok to have the external HD
> vertical or should it alwys be flat? I only ask
> because the fan is on the bottom.
>
> At present, I made a stand out of the cardboard
> box the HD came in with upside down 'V' notches
> on the bottom for airflow and I put the case on
> top of that but the USB cord isn't long enough
> so whenever I have to use it I have to move it
> closer to the 8500.
>
> Its not all that critical since I'll only be using
> this HD as storage for the 8500.
>
> Thanks
> Robert

This is a picture of my WD Black, seated on
a SATA backplane style adapter. Either the
connector is longer on yours (quite possible),
or the drive could still move to the right
a bit more. Since you got it working, we don't
really need this picture now, and it must be
seated.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2v8ohsn.jpg

*******

Modern hard drives are stable on the major compass
points, in all three dimensions. As a result,
the drive can sit flat. Or, the drive can remain
upright like a box of cereal. The drive can even
be mounted on either end, with the SATA
connector pointing downwards if you want.

At one time, the rules were less permissive. The
ingredients now are the counterbalanced heads
(even on single surface platters, there is a head
on either side, spring loaded, and forced apart
by the "flying effect"). Also, the voice coil system
and embedded servo pattern, help compensate for the
external positioning of the drive.

*******

In your second picture, the Disk Management panel
is offering to write a blank MBR on the disk. You
should accept this and click OK. Once you click OK,
the Disk 1 will say "Basic".

http://i62.tinypic.com/2lvxml3.jpg

In the third picture...

http://i57.tinypic.com/ih4arn.jpg

you want to select "New Simple Volume".

I like to provide a label like "BACKUPS" in one of the
panels of the wizard, so I can figure out where the
thing is later. I don't usually bother modifying
the drive letter choice, because if I did that,
I would be forever adjusting the letters (there
would always be some combination of drives that
conflicted). I just let Windows pick some nice
letters for me :-)

Paul

Mark Twain

July 25th 15, 01:35 PM

Completed @!@!!!!!!!!!!

http://i57.tinypic.com/25hjy1c.jpg

You said I don't need any program to move
folders/files over. Do I cut/paste? How
would I drag folders/files?

Many Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 25th 15, 01:41 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> As a matter of fact the tab/spacer
> was striking the end of the HD and
> that was what I meant by a little
> 'tweeking' to get it to close/lock.
>
> I didn't want to force it down on
> the HD and damage it so I kept playing
> with it but it is very snug. In any
> case it did power up and the 8500
> recognized it.
>
> I'm happy with it now that I have it
> working and I actually like the blue
> light. I guess you misunderstood me or
> I phrased it wrong but I like it allot.
>
> Its funny because until you mentioned
> fans I didn't even think about that.
> Meaning it was so quiet that I didn't
> even notice!
>
> In passing, I leave the USB cable
> connected to the external HD versus
> connecting/reconnecting which over time
> may, or may not cause issues.
>
> This way, I can just plug it in when
> needed. I have it stored on a shelf
> (along with the modem) under the desk
> on its stand.
>
> So, I guess I can go ahead and finish
> installation and select 'New Simple Volume'
> for a new partition since all the others
> are called 'Simple Basic'.
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

You're on the right path now.

Before you know it, you'll have some
fresh backups :-)

Paul

Paul

July 25th 15, 11:11 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Completed @!@!!!!!!!!!!
>
> http://i57.tinypic.com/25hjy1c.jpg
>
> You said I don't need any program to move
> folders/files over. Do I cut/paste? How
> would I drag folders/files?
>
> Many Thanks,
> Robert
>

Highlight the files on the source partition.
Select "copy" from the File Explorer menu, or you
can use control-C as a shortcut key. Now, highlight
the destination partition and select "paste"
from the File Explorer edit menu. That does a basic
copy.

I like copy semantics rather than move. Sometimes,
I screw up my selection, or it's going to take
too long, and I want to abort the transfer. I feel
safer doing a copy, and stopping the copy, than
doing a move (where the source file is deleted
as part of the operation).

So when I've copied and pasted, I can then delete
the original files if I no longer want them.

How I do these things, is also a function of
"how broken my mouse is". I have a mouse with a
bad (intermittent) left-mouse button. And it's
easier to use Copy and Paste from the menus when
using that mouse.

You can also select, drag&drop the selection on
the other partition. When they're different partitions,
the result is a copy. If the folders happen to be
on the same partition, the files are moved from
the one folder, to the other folder. (That's because
for files on the same partition, it's easy to logically
move them, by just changing their location in the
file tree. The data clusters don't need to be
physically copied for that to happen.)

There's more on the subject here. But I stress that
I'm not crazy about Move (Sent To) as a technique,
as there might be a situation where something gets
lost. I'm much happier when managing files, where
I can verify the files arrived at their destination.
Before I decide to do *anything* to the source files,
like delete them.

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-move-a-file-or-folder-in-windows-xp.html

Sometimes, for very large objects, I use a checksum
utility, to verify the checksum of the files is the
same. That adds a lot of time to the moving process.
But depending on the size of object transferred,
and the health of the hard drive being used (I have
a bunch of semi-good drives), I just feel happier checking
that the files are the same. The hard drive is pretty
good about correcting errors, and even on 1TB sized image
transfers (like, say, a 1TB .mrimg Macrium file), I don't
think I've seen a problem. And some tools and formats,
have their own internal checksums, for the same purpose.
To verify the file has not become corrupted at some point.

For tiny folders of stuff, I don't bother with that
approach, and just drag&drop them onto the destination
drive.

On the computer with the bad mouse, I have two mice
connected. I have an old serial mouse (uses a serial
port), and amazingly, all the Windows OSes (even Win10)
continue to know how to use one of those mice. Whereas
Linux on the other hand, isn't aware the serial mouse is
on the computer, and just ignores it. My serial
mouse still has good left-mouse on it, so I do
file operations with the serial mouse. The bad mouse
has a scroll-wheel, which the serial mouse lacks.
So that's how I lurch along, with both a bad mouse
and a good mouse. I switch mice, if I know the bad
mouse button is going to ruin a Copy&Paste.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 26th 15, 03:35 AM

My main purpose for buying the external HD was
to move folders/files off the 8500 to lean it out
as much as I can.

You mentioned something awhile back about creating
space on the HD for the OS just in case if I should
ever need it for the 8500.

Is there still time to do that? I haven't done
anything with the HD as yet. Also, can I put backups
and folders/files together on the HD or will it
conflict?

Is there anything else you recommend at this point for
either the 8200 or 8500? Thanks to you we've upgraded
the 8200 quite a bit and I'm very pleased with the new
screen resolution and response.

Of course, were still dealing with the intermittent
freezing of the 8500 computer but other than that all is
good.

I will continue to check for repeated freeze problems. Some
pages I oticed freeze the computer while loading then frees
up afterward but I consider that normal if its a large file.
Is there a program that searches exclusively for profiling?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 26th 15, 05:43 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> My main purpose for buying the external HD was
> to move folders/files off the 8500 to lean it out
> as much as I can.
>
> You mentioned something awhile back about creating
> space on the HD for the OS just in case if I should
> ever need it for the 8500.
>
> Is there still time to do that? I haven't done
> anything with the HD as yet. Also, can I put backups
> and folders/files together on the HD or will it
> conflict?
>
> Is there anything else you recommend at this point for
> either the 8200 or 8500? Thanks to you we've upgraded
> the 8200 quite a bit and I'm very pleased with the new
> screen resolution and response.
>
> Of course, were still dealing with the intermittent
> freezing of the 8500 computer but other than that all is
> good.
>
> I will continue to check for repeated freeze problems. Some
> pages I oticed freeze the computer while loading then frees
> up afterward but I consider that normal if its a large file.
> Is there a program that searches exclusively for profiling?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

If you have your copy of Macrium Reflect Free handy,
you "clone" the one or two partitions needed.

http://i61.tinypic.com/732c1j.jpg

In that picture, there are two partitions on the
source disk. System Reserved partition, which is used
to boot, is tiny. The C: partition next to it, is not.

My C: partition is under 40GB there. That wouldn't
make a dent, if cloned to the 2TB drive.

If, however, your C: partition is huge, then cloning
it is going to take longer and use a lot more space.

You could clone C: and shrink it. You would need
a third party Partition Management program to do that.

So if the source C: partition is small, it's an ideal
candidate for cloning. If the C: partition is half
a terabyte, this idea is wasteful. And it would take
some effort, to clean up the partition cloned on the
destination drive, enough so that it didn't waste space.

Once the cloning operating is finished, you can create
your backup partition, after the copied C: partition.

2TB backup drive.

<1GB ~40GB 1700+ GB
+-----+-------------------+--------------+-----------------------+
| MBR | System Reserved | C: (cloned) | D: BACKUPS (1700+ GB) |
+-----+-------------------+--------------+-----------------------+

Shrinking C: is the hard part. And one "free" Partition Management
application, was chock-full of adware, so you must be very careful
with that stuff. I put it in a VM to find out, and just threw
the VM away later. In fact, the OS in that picture above, is
specially setup for easy discarding. I unzip the VM at the
beginning of a session, and don't save the session, and the
whole thing is thrown away later. That way, adware doesn't
stand much of a chance. Serious malware though, could
easily spell trouble, so the VM isn't bulletproof. It's
just bulletproof to silly stuff (adware).

When you clone the source disk, there are three tick boxes.
The MBR, System Reserved, and C:. The MBR needs to be copied
the first time, so the OS can boot at some future date. If
any future cloning operations are done, the MBR would not be
copied. As that would delete the D: BACKUP partition. So later,
you have to be a bit careful with copying the MBR, and not copy it.
Similarly, if you wanted to clone C: at some future date,
there could easily be a mismatch in size between C: and C: (Clone),
in which case you'd have to be careful about how to do the
operation.

Still, if an OS was sitting on the destination disk, there might
be some emergency situation where it would come in handy.

The first time the destination disk is booted (in an emergency),
remember to disconnect the source disk SATA cable. And you do that,
only for the first boot cycle of the cloned OS. The cloned OS is not
allowed to "see a copy of itself", until it has had a chance to
boot all by itself. I learned all about this stuff, by getting
it wrong. And now I'm a bit more careful on the first boot
attempt on the destination drive.

So if you want to clone C: to the new 2TB drive, you can
do that, then "clean house" so that the cloned C: is just
an OS and nothing more. Then shrink it as you see fit.
The C: on my laptop for example, I think that is contained
in a 40GB partition, while any left over downloads go in another,
larger partition. And that makes it easier to backup or clone C:
when needed.

Windows 7 has a "shrink" function in Disk Management. But, it
can only shrink your average partition, by 50%. If the cloned
C: was 500GB in size, you could shrink it to 250GB, using
nothing but Windows to do it. But, if you want to squeeze
any more unused space out of it, there are some metadata files
in the way. I used a trial version of Raxco PerfectDisk, to move
the metadata to the left, and allow the Windows shrink function
to work a second time. And after a few repeated cycles of that
recipe, could get the C: partition down to 40GB. It's too bad the
Windows "shrink" function couldn't do that by itself, but I
don't think they ever fixed it.

HTH,
Paul

Mark Twain

July 26th 15, 08:45 AM

Well here's my usage:

http://i58.tinypic.com/2cegpj5.jpg

I seem to recall seeing a disk image backup
option. Could we use that?

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-system/what-is-the-difference-between-creating-a-full/56bd4962-baf9-44da-916b-7de8308b176f?auth=1

From the initial reading it sounds a bit tricky
to shrink backup's and as you can see my HD usage
is pretty large.

What would you do?

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain

July 26th 15, 09:20 AM

I was just thinking, I still have another
Seagate Barracuda 7200 160 GB HD(although
I don't know if it works or not but maybe
we could get it to work?) and the original
40GB Western Digital HD.

Would there be any point in putting either
in the 8200 or would that overload it and/or
drag it's performance down? I believe it has
connections though?

http://i61.tinypic.com/zj9krp.jpg

'If' you think its a good idea, I seem to remember
setting pins in the rear making one the master
and the other the slave but I can't remember
the details of which ones to set.

Thoughts/Suggestions?
Robert

Paul

July 26th 15, 10:51 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Well here's my usage:
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/2cegpj5.jpg
>
> I seem to recall seeing a disk image backup
> option. Could we use that?
>
> http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-system/what-is-the-difference-between-creating-a-full/56bd4962-baf9-44da-916b-7de8308b176f?auth=1
>
> From the initial reading it sounds a bit tricky
> to shrink backup's and as you can see my HD usage
> is pretty large.
>
> What would you do?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

Yeah, that's pretty big. And wouldn't be a good use
of space.

My idea fits slightly better, if your working C: is a
bit smaller.

OK, so if you keep the 2TB drive as just ~1800GB of BACKUPS,
then you'll have the ability to put an image (.mrimg) of
C: on the drive anyway.

So this was my dumb idea. new 2TB drive, prepared for immediate usage
+-----+--------------+---------------+
1TB (400 of 1000 used) ---> | MBR | 1TB C: clone | 1TB E: BACKUPS|
+-----+--------------+---------------+

Whereas, if you just make backups, if the original hard drive
dies, you would need to purchase a 1TB to replace it. And do
that only when the hard drive breaks (someday). You would
just make Macrium "images" of the original drive, to prepare
for that day. You have your Macrium CD, to restore from
the image saved on the 2TB drive. The difference doing
it this way, is waiting a day or two for the newly purchased
1TB replacement drive to come in. This is still a good
strategy, as no data is getting lost, and you're fully
functional again once the data is restored to the new drive.

new 2TB drive, holding .mrimg
+-----+---------------+ to replacement
1TB (400 of 1000 used) ---> | MBR | 2TB D: BACKUPS| ---> 1TB drive (one day)
+-----+---------------+

You can have a mixture of random moved folders from the
current C: transferred to the new drive, plus throw in
a few .mrimg as the need arises.

To manage the Macrium image backups, you need to
label them for later. The Macrium backup has a
"Comment" field you can use. But I've also just
created file names for the backup image, to
reflect what they are.

Macrium --> 8500__July_26_2015__full_copy_of_C.mrimg

That way, the file name reflects what it is.

If later I make another one

8500__July_26_2015__full_copy_of_C.mrimg
8500__Sept_26_2015__full_copy_of_C.mrimg

and I run out of space on the backup drive, then
I know it is safe to delete the July one. As a
space management thing.

If I were to compress them with 7ZIP compression,
the file name might become

8500__July_26_2015__full_copy_of_C.mrimg.7z

but if I do that, then I typically need another
1TB drive to do the decompression later, before
using the contents.

Macrium has internal compression options (which
you can use), and they save some space, but for
speed reasons, the compression isn't as good as
7ZIP. Doing 7ZIP compression could take the
computer all day, depending on the size of the
file and the speed of the computer. Progress
on that would be pretty slow if the 8200 did it,
but a bit faster on the 8500. My new machine
can compress at about 18MB/sec on a big archive,
while my older machine (that I'm typing on),
can only manage 3MB/sec or so. Doing compression
is one time the CPU gets a real workout.

Paul

Paul

July 26th 15, 11:51 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I was just thinking, I still have another
> Seagate Barracuda 7200 160 GB HD(although
> I don't know if it works or not but maybe
> we could get it to work?) and the original
> 40GB Western Digital HD.
>
> Would there be any point in putting either
> in the 8200 or would that overload it and/or
> drag it's performance down? I believe it has
> connections though?
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/zj9krp.jpg
>
> 'If' you think its a good idea, I seem to remember
> setting pins in the rear making one the master
> and the other the slave but I can't remember
> the details of which ones to set.
>
> Thoughts/Suggestions?
> Robert

Adding a drive...

1) Draws 12W more electricity. The drive is likely
to keep rotating (unless you set it optionally
to spin down when not being used). Some green
drives draw 5 to 7 watts.

2) The power supply needs enough amps on its end,
to handle the load. I would not expect that to be
a problem. It is a problem for people who add
twenty hard drives to their computer, and must
be carefully considered in that situation. With more
than four storage devices, "do your maths".

You will need a pair of the green plastic rails,
to slide the drive into the 3.5" bay.

In your picture, I see two 80 wire cables. Those
are the good ones. Those allow higher speeds and
CS (cable select) jumpering. Dell loves to use CS,
because it doesn't matter how many drives they install,
or in what bay, the CS is always correct. And that's
why they gave you two 80 wire cables. It speeds up
computer assembly at the plant by 15 seconds.

Motherboard --------X------X One drive config, use
CS the end connector.

Motherboard --------X------X Two drive config. CS
CS CS jumper on both. 80 wire cable.
Verify original drive is CS,
then add the second CS drive.

With the older 40 wire cables, the data rate is limited
to 66MB/sec. You can use Master/Slave jumpering with either
kind of cable. It's the 80 wire cables that tend to
support Cable Select (CS) as a jumper option. The jumpering
doesn't affect speed. The ATA spec says the computer
has some way to figure out the cable is 40 wire or 80
wire, but I don't know which wire it checks to figure
that out. So the following work with 40 wire or 80
wire cables. The difference between MA/SL and CS/CS,
is a matter of convenience, not performance. With the
40 wire cables, for the most part, this style of
jumpering is your only option. The 40 wire cables are
less likely to be CS-ready.

Motherboard --------X------X One drive config, use
MA the end connector. Jumper
it "Master" or "Master Only"

Motherboard --------X------X Two drive config. One drive
SL MA is "Master with Slave", the other
drive is "Slave"

Motherboard --------X------X Two drive alternate configuration.
MA SL "Master with Slave" plus "Slave"

Going from config #1 to config #2 is a natural progression
with master/slave jumpering. While the alternate configuration
can certainly be used, it requires more puttering around
if changing back to a one drive setup again. The point of
me drawing in config #3, is to show that MA is not always
on the end of the cable. It's not fixed by the position.
Rather, the two drives have to pick "opposite things".
Don't put two MA or two SL on the cable. Two CS on
the cable, on the other hand, is just fine.

Western Digital and Seagate use slightly different
jumper terminology. Seagate has

Master

while Western Digital has

Master alone
Master with slave

and WD distinguish a Master setting type for each
config. So Master Alone is config #1. Master with Slave
would be for config #2 or config #3.

The Slave has no funny labeling options, and is just "Slave".

The label on the hard drive, has the basic
jumper options on display. You check the
web site for a "complete" table of values.

For example, if the hard drive has a 2x4 array of
jumper pins, the jumper positions might be.

Master Slave Cable_Select Clip
X X X X
X X X X

Clip is used when sticking a modern IDE drive
in a computer from around 1998 or so. It causes
the hard drive to change the geometry declaration.
The computer end, interprets the drive as either
a 2GB drive, or as a 33GB drive, depending on how
old the computer is. You should not need the Clip
jumper for the 8200.

If you find a new hard drive "won't go over 33GB",
then as a debugging item, you check that some
dopey person didn't put a jumper on the CLIP position
(as a means of jumper storage).

I like to look up the jumper table, just to
see how many crazy options there are. IBM are
the champs at that stuff, as some IBM drives
have a wealth of alternate geometry settings
that nobody has ever heard of. Some old drives,
you could change the declaration of the size of
a sector. And that's why I like to read up
on the drives sometimes, to see what stuff I've
never heard of before.

SCSI drives (not on your computers), have a wealth
of jumpers and switches, and require a lot more
reading before you can configure one. My older
computers used SCSI, and I probably have around
a half dozen crappy old SCSI drives in the junk
room. The 9GB ones still run, but the ball bearing
motors in them, sound like chainsaws. They're
quite loud and annoying.

*******

When you partition the drive in Disk Management,
your copy of Windows will always select the
maximum size allowed correctly. If not patched up
to date, the 160GB drive will allow making a
137GB partition, with say WinXP Gold version.
The full 160GB would be considered, if the
OS is running WinXP SP3.

When problems happen, is if a WinXP SP3 OS prepares
the drive, you have data on the drive, and you then
stuff the drive into a WinXP Gold era computer. There
could be data corruption in that case.

As long as you consider that the drive has no useful
data on it (i.e. you don't care what happens to the
contents on the IDE drive now), in Disk Management you
can remove all the partitions, and that will allow
the OS to pick the correct (limiting) maximum size
for you. If you were actually caring about the
data on the drive, you would have to be a lot more
careful about your combinations of Windows OS version
and hard drive size. If you check the System
control panel, and the label says you're
"Service Pack 3", then you would have nothing
to worry about. You can do that check now if you
want, before even cracking the 8200 computer case.

The WinXP versions are Gold, SP1, SP1a, SP2, SP3.
SP1a is SP1 with MS Java removed. Gold is the initial
release. Large drive support arrived in SP1, and
required a registry change as part of safe handling
at the time.

I used to run computers with as many as seven hard
drives in them, but now I generally limit myself
to two hard drives. As running seven of them,
with the price of electricity, isn't all that
reasonable.

Have fun,
Paul

Mark Twain

July 26th 15, 11:57 PM

With your first comment(It draws 12W more)it decided
the question. The 8200 cam with (2) sets of green rails
which they mounted on the inside of the case. I took them
off because I thought they were causing noise(it was
the fan housing)but I still have them. I save everything.

In any case, I'll just leave the older HD where they are
and use them later if needed.

Robert

Mark Twain

July 27th 15, 12:06 AM

It sounds as if your suggestion is to move the
entire HD from the 8500 to the External HD and
add a few disk images which would be great as
as backup drive but where do I put all the
folders and files from the 8500 that I want to
lean out?

As far as time/waiting etc remember I still have
the 8200 that I could use should I need it albeit
slower than the 8500.

Also this is my desk top:

http://i62.tinypic.com/28hzww3.jpg

Do you see anything I can loose?

Robert

Mark Twain

July 27th 15, 12:28 AM

Of course! I have 2TB's on the external HD and I
kept thinking of 1TB. You're suggesting to use
1TB to clone the HD and create disk images and
I can still use 1TB for storage, correct?

Is there going to be some way to delineate with
partitions which is which?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 27th 15, 02:13 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Of course! I have 2TB's on the external HD and I
> kept thinking of 1TB. You're suggesting to use
> 1TB to clone the HD and create disk images and
> I can still use 1TB for storage, correct?
>
> Is there going to be some way to delineate with
> partitions which is which?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

After the cloning is complete, you can apply
labels to the partitions. Do "Properties" on the
partition, and perhaps there is a place to type in
a label.

I'm not saying this is a perfect idea. If your
C: partition had been smaller (40-60GB), and you
kept your downloads separate from the C: partition,
that would give the control needed to do a nice neat
(efficient) job.

You certainly have room on the 2TB drive, to clone
a 1TB drive, then add a 1TB partition onto the end
of the disk. That will work. It's just a bit wasteful.

As a "neat and tidy guy", many of my OSes are shrunk
down, and excessively large downloads or .mrimg files,
go on a data-only partition. And shrinking partitions
on Windows isn't that simple, unless you use a Partition
Manager. At least one free Partition Manager, was
chock full of Adware (OpenCandy). I loaded it up in
a virtual machine for a look - what a mess :-)
Tossed it.

So yes, if you want to try cloning over the
existing boot drive, to make the new external
drive into an "emergency C: drive", it will work.
It just limits you to roughly 1TB for your other
data re-arrangements. Cloning the partitions over,
then cleaning them up and shrinking them, gives you
something to work with, and saves more space for making
a big backup partition (for your files or your .mrimg
files and so on).

I bought a defragmenter program recently, that
does a good job of preparing a partition for shrinkage
using Windows 7 disk management. I didn't buy it with
that specific application in mind. I bought it just for
usage as a defragmenter. But it can be pressed into service,
when required, for other housecleaning chores. Windows 7
and Windows 8 don't defragment large files for you,
so the program I got, is for doing that step
separately.

*******

OK, lets get down to specifics.

Say that this is the source disk, the internal 1TB.

Boot flag = 0x80, active
+-----+-------------------------+---------------------------+
| MBR | System Reserved | ~1TB C: |
| | (a tiny partition) | Say 400GB of files |
| | | actually stored on disk |
+-----+-------------------------+---------------------------+

Clone that to the 2TB drive. This is the external drive
after you are finished. This will take a while. You do the
Clone step with Macrium Reflect Free. Remove any partition
on the external 2TB drive, before opening Macrium. That
will be less confusing. I'm assuming you have *no* valuable
data already on the 2TB external drive. After the clone is
finished, this is what we've got on the external.

Boot flag = 0x80, active
+-----+-------------------------+---------------------------+----------------+
| MBR | System Reserved | ~1TB E: | Unallocated 1TB|
| | cloned from machine | Say 400GB of files | |
| | you think might break | actually stored on disk | |
+-----+-------------------------+---------------------------+----------------+

Now, in Disk Management, click on E: . Look for the word
"Shrink" as an option. The wizard will show information
on how much you can shrink. Shrink the space at the
end of E: . After this step, E: will be 500GB instead
of a whole 1TB. It will be 500GB and hold 400GB of files.
You cannot shrink E: smaller than the space needed to
hold the files in there. You cannot shrink E: below
500GB because of a couple metadata files. A proper
Partition Manager (ideally, a free one *without* adware
in it), could shrink the partition down to 401GB of space.

Boot flag = 0x80, active
+-----+-------------------------+---------------+----------------------------+
| MBR | System Reserved | ~500GB E: | Unallocated 1.5TB |
| | cloned from machine | 400GB files | |
| | you think might break | | |
+-----+-------------------------+---------------+----------------------------+

That's about as "efficient" as I can make the clone
for you. You want to finish shrinking E: now, as moving
stuff after the data partition is created, means
even more chugging for the disk drive.

So, say we're satisfied with the setup, now create the
backup partition. In Disk Management, create NTFS F:
and assign a label as you see fit.

Boot flag = 0x80, active
+-----+-------------------------+---------------+----------------------------+
| MBR | System Reserved | ~500GB E: | 1.5TB F: "BACKUPS" |
| | cloned from machine | 400GB files | |
| | you think might break | (Emerg.OS) | |
+-----+-------------------------+---------------+----------------------------+

After this is done, if the original internal 1TB inside
the computer won't boot, disconnect it. Then, insert
the 2TB drive from the external casing, back inside
the computer. You should be able to boot from it.
*Do not* allow the original drive to be connected
at the same time as the 2TB is inside the computer,
until the 2TB drive has *booted at least once*.
A cloned drive must be booted *by itself*, the
first time it is used.

HTH,
Paul

Mark Twain

July 27th 15, 04:13 AM

I have to re-read your instructions so I'm
clear on the procedure.

I clone the OS to the external HD using
Macrium Reflect then go into Disk Management
and look for 'shrink' option to reduce file
to 500GB, then create a backup partition NTSF F:
(right click for options -label e.g. 'Complete
OS backup 7-26-15').

Can this be tested by changing the startup sequence
in the BIOS on the 8500? or should I?

I went into Macrium and this popped up:

http://i57.tinypic.com/3588k81.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/2qlygq1.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/i6m8tj.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/205pgk.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/egxp1s.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/18yatx.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/2uhs5dx.jpg

So I just click clone this disk and it will
clone everything above?

Robert

Paul

July 27th 15, 08:25 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I have to re-read your instructions so I'm
> clear on the procedure.
>
> I clone the OS to the external HD using
> Macrium Reflect then go into Disk Management
> and look for 'shrink' option to reduce file
> to 500GB, then create a backup partition NTSF F:
> (right click for options -label e.g. 'Complete
> OS backup 7-26-15').
>
> Can this be tested by changing the startup sequence
> in the BIOS on the 8500? or should I?
>
>
> I went into Macrium and this popped up:
>
> http://i57.tinypic.com/3588k81.jpg
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/2qlygq1.jpg
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/i6m8tj.jpg
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/205pgk.jpg
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/egxp1s.jpg
>
> http://i62.tinypic.com/18yatx.jpg
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/2uhs5dx.jpg
>
> So I just click clone this disk and it will
> clone everything above?
>
> Robert

If you were to clone the OS to the 2TB external drive,
to do a "test boot", you'd pull the 2TB drive out
of the enclosure, and put it inside the 8500. I don't
think the external drive would boot as an external.
That's because the USB bus must be modified as a
"boot bus extender", USB must be discovered early
in the boot process, for Windows to continue to be
able to contact an external hard drive. (Windows
"disconnects" the external drive, part way through
boot, and that's why it won't work.) Rather than
try the long long recipe to make that happen (fix
the Windows USB subsystem to make it bootable), it's
easier to move the 2TB drive inside the 8500.

And you'd *only* need to do that, if you want to
"test boot" right now. It's OK to leave the OS sitting
there for a rainy day, when you might need it.

Always remember, that when you boot the 2TB drive
for the *first* time, it's not allowed to see the
disk it was cloned from. Once the 2TB drive has booted
one time, by itself, then it does not hurt to connect
the original 1TB drive again, and have both drives present.
The OS has trouble figuring out which partition is
C:, if it "sees itself" on the first boot.

*******

Most of your pictures, depict the Macrium "update"
menu. It has release notes, on what was fixed on
the various releases of Macrium.

I am running Macrium 5 here. You are running Macrium 6
as near as I can tell from the decoration in the upper
left hand corner. If you accept an update from Macrium,
by clicking the "Update" button in the lower right
corner, that will likely pull in a later version
of the release 6 software.

For the most part, you don't care about that. What you
do care about, is that the Macrium Rescue CD you prepared,
"aligns" with the version of Macrium you're using. If I was
running Macrium 6, I would want the rescue CD to also be
Macrium 6. I suspect Macrium was careful to make the product
backward compatible, so you can restore from a Macrium 5
..mrimg, to the computer. But best practice for me, is to
use an up-to-date rescue CD, if I change versions. If I had
backups made by both Macrium 5 and Macrium 6, I would
want to keep two rescue CDs handy, just in case. Macrium
has demonstrated great attention to detail, so my sort
of caution is probably unwarranted. But I've experienced
enough software products, to not give any of these
companies too much trust.

If you installed Macrium 6, as your version from the very
beginning, you have nothing to worry about. I happened to
start with Macrium 5, and for the time being, I'm still
using it, and declining to use the update button.

You can accept an update at any time, as long as you
have assured yourself that Macrium 6 can read your
old .mrimg files (whatever version they were made with).

*******

OK, your last image has the important bits. You can clone all
of those.
0x80 boot flag
+-----+-------------+---------------+------------------+
| MBR | DellUtility | Recovery/Boot | C: partition |
+-----+-------------+---------------+------------------+
13GB of 25GB 321 of 907GB

After the MBR and three partitions are transferred, the external
2TB disk will look like this. I'm assuming the optical drive
is D: , and the next available letter is E: .

+-----+-------------+---------------+------------------+-----------------+
| MBR | DellUtility | Recovery/Boot | E: partition | 1TB unallocated |
+-----+-------------+---------------+------------------+-----------------+
13GB of 25GB 321 of 907GB

In Disk Management, if you shrink E: the maximal amount that
Disk Management can handle, the final configuration looks like this.

+-----+-------------+---------------+--------------+---------------------+
| MBR | DellUtility | Recovery/Boot | E: partition | 1.45 TB unallocated |
+-----+-------------+---------------+--------------+---------------------+
13GB of 25GB 321 of 453GB

Then, you can make a fourth primary partition, down at the end. The
BACKUPS partition will hold your xxx.mrimg files. You can pick
any sort of meaningful name you want for the .mrimg files. The
label on the disk partition, is a different issue than picking
a filename for each .mrimg backup you make. I like to use
partition labels in Disk Management, to help me avoid accidents
when moving stuff between partitions.

+-----+-------------+---------------+--------------+---------------------+
| MBR | DellUtility | Recovery/Boot | E: partition | F: "BACKUPS" |
+-----+-------------+---------------+--------------+---------------------+
13GB of 25GB 321 of 453GB 0 of 1.45TB used

There is sufficient slack space left on E:, for E: to boot with
no problem. You could safely squeeze E: a bit more, but it would
take some third-party tools to do it.

And if you get bored with this setup, you can also
remove those partitions, keep F: and resize F: . So
you're not "stuck" with this setup forever.

With large hard drives, some of these operations will
take a while. Planning is very important with big disks,
because a mistake can cost you half a day of waiting.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 27th 15, 12:39 PM

If I leave the HD where its at and
only use it if my HD in the 8500
goes bad. Then I remove the old HD
(thus preventing it from seeing the
disc it was cloned from)and replace
it with the 2TB HD and have it boot
up for the first time by itself.

Correct? Then you said it wouldn't
hurt to connect the original HD again
and have both present but if the original
HD crashed why would I put it back?

I updated Macrium to 6.754 I believe then
it prompted me to created a rescue disk
which I did. Then cloned the disk:

http://i60.tinypic.com/doxhqf.jpg

So how am I doing?

On disconnecting the external HD; after I
received the OK to eject the connection does
it matter if I power off the external HD first
and then pull the plug or visa versa? I kind
of think pulling the plug first is better than
powering it off because I heard a small thumb
when I did.

In passing the CD-DVD light on the 8200 have
flashed when I turn it on and remain lit. Then
when I get it going it goes out. Another intermittent
problem.

Robert

Paul

July 27th 15, 01:37 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> If I leave the HD where its at and
> only use it if my HD in the 8500
> goes bad. Then I remove the old HD
> (thus preventing it from seeing the
> disc it was cloned from)and replace
> it with the 2TB HD and have it boot
> up for the first time by itself.
>
> Correct? Then you said it wouldn't
> hurt to connect the original HD again
> and have both present but if the original
> HD crashed why would I put it back?

This is certainly true. But there might be
other situations, where the internal hard
drive is still good, and yet you want the
"opinion" of booting a known-good copy of the
OS. And that copy on the 2TB disk would be
convenient.

I'm just trying to give a warning, so you
get the best mileage out of this setup.

>
> I updated Macrium to 6.754 I believe then
> it prompted me to created a rescue disk
> which I did. Then cloned the disk:
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/doxhqf.jpg
>
> So how am I doing?

So your next step would be entering Disk Management.
While there is a path to get there from Control Panel,
I prefer to just type the name of the command.

diskmgmt.msc

You put that in the Run box.

Once there, select the J: partition. That's the
906.80 GB on the 2TB disk, and shrink it. In
Step 2 here, you can see the "Shrink Volume"
choice in the right-click menu.

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/gg309169.aspx

Did you notice something else interesting ?
The J: partition has 94.82GB of files, while
the C: partition has 381.24GB of files. This means
some "un-copyable" system file stuff didn't get
copied. That could be System Restore stuff,
some artifact from doing backups, that sort of thing.

So in terms of your original task, cleaning up C:,
it could be that a part of the size of C:, isn't
actually your files doing it.

>
> On disconnecting the external HD; after I
> received the OK to eject the connection does
> it matter if I power off the external HD first
> and then pull the plug or visa versa? I kind
> of think pulling the plug first is better than
> powering it off because I heard a small thumb
> when I did.
>
> In passing the CD-DVD light on the 8200 have
> flashed when I turn it on and remain lit. Then
> when I get it going it goes out. Another intermittent
> problem.
>
> Robert

For your new enclosure, you want to use "Safely Remove".
For that to work, you can't currently have any files
open on the 2TB drive. So your applications have
to be closed. Otherwise, the request to "Safely Remove",
will be denied. Sometimes it's hard to figure out
what is keeping the drive busy.

The way the new enclosures work, Safely Remove should
cause the blue LED to go off on the drive enclosure.
If you feel the casing, the drive should also
stop spinning. It spins down. The spin down is
controlled, and easy on the drive.

Now, you can switch off via any power switch
on the enclosure. This prevents the drive
from spinning up again. Since the drive has
stopped spinning, you're less likely to bump it
and crash the heads.

After the Safely Remove, you could also unplug the
USB from the back of the computer. But I think
my first priority is probably the power
switch on the enclosure, followed by unplugging
the USB cable. The tasks have equal priority,
but me reaching for the power switch, is so there
is no way for the drive to spin up again.

On some Windows OSes, the LED won't go off. In such
a case, verify the Safely Remove actually worked,
and that there is a confirmation dialog on the screen.
Then, you can unplug the USB cable. Followed by
powering off. Maybe it "clunks", but you hope not.

If the LED goes off, that's the best way to do it.

If you have to deal with the drive with the LED
still ON, that's not the best for the drive.

You want this drive to last for a while. Drives have
certain auto-retract features, but we don't
want to test those :-) Some drives, turn the
spindle motor into a generator, to get enough
power to use the voice coil actuator, to park
the heads up the ramp. Before the spindle runs
out of RPMs. While I have read of this, I
don't have any proof they actually do that.

There's no evidence of any other energy storage
solution on the drive. Supercaps cost
too much money, and I've never seen one on
a hard drive.

So if you hear a "clunk", that might be the
mechanism. An emergency retract, caused by a
perceived power failure. If you spin down the
drive via Safely Remove, the power fail is
"expected", the heads are already retracted,
and there is no "emergency".

They don't really want to land the heads on the
platter itself. They want the heads to go up
the ramp. Safely Remove is one way to get there.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 27th 15, 11:34 PM

I haven't done anything as of yet since
yesterday, I'm being cautious since I've
never done this before and from your earlier
comments this can be tricky.

When I do this, it's going to ask how small
do I want to shrink it? 95MGB?

While saving space, would it be less 'tricky'
to leave it as is for when the time it's needed?
Also, this won't increase any space in the storage
partition so what is the reasoning behind doing the
skrinkage again?

I always click the safely remove for USB Flash stick,
or external HD's. I thought about exactly what you said;
about the drive still spinning, and so after safety
disconnect/remove I powered off the drive then pulled the
USB cord from the 8500.

Unless you see something wrong with it, I prefer to
keep the cord attached to the external HD rather than
plugging/unplugging.

As I said, I also prefer to have the drive on it's
cardboard box I made for it with the fan pointing downwards.
It does have pads for standing vertically but 'Murphy's Law'
being what it is I decided caution was a better option.

The fan is extremely quiet; I had to put my ear right up next
to it to hear it and barely even then!

As for the light on the 8200, as I said when I saw it on, I
held the power button until it went off. It's as if the 8200
hadn't completely powered itself off or the drive hadn't.

Yesterday this happened and it took some time to get the 8200
going. I've noticed this. Sometimes its easy sometimes not. Does
it make a difference if the 8500 is online or not? Also, I still
have to check the top fan and lately it hasn't been starting on
its own but once going it seems fine.

Robert

Mark Twain

July 27th 15, 11:57 PM

To briefly refresh:

Dell XPS 8500, with Windows 7 Professional, SP1,
with Spywareblaster, Avast, Windows Defender and Windows
firewall.

(1) TB HD
Intel (R) Core (TM) i7-33-3770 CPU @ 3.40 GHz 3.40 GHz
Ram 12.0 GB
System type : 64-bit operating system

VLC player

Dell Dimension 8200 with XP, SP3, with Spywareblaster,
Avast, Malwarebytes and Windows firewall.

Seagate Barracuda 7200 160 Gb HD
Intel (R) Pentium (R) 4 CPU 1.80 GHz
Ram 1.79 GHz, 1.00 GB of RAM
System type : 32-bit operating system

Upgraded video card (GE 6200)
Upgraded PCI card with (4) 2.0 ports
Removed dial-up modem card

and (external hard drives)

Seagate Backup Plus 1(TB) 2.5 USB Portable HD

8500 and 8200 backups and Rescue Disk created

WD BLACK SERIES WD2003FZEX 2TB 7200
RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal
Hard Drive

Cloned OS from 8500, Rescue Disk created

Patriot Flash stick

Should I use the Seagate Backup Plus exclusively
for the 8200 and clone it as well? I suppose not
since it would have to be able to mount inside the
8200. Just a thought.

Robert

Paul

July 28th 15, 03:14 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> To briefly refresh:
>
> Dell XPS 8500, with Windows 7 Professional, SP1,
> with Spywareblaster, Avast, Windows Defender and Windows
> firewall.
>
> (1) TB HD
> Intel (R) Core (TM) i7-33-3770 CPU @ 3.40 GHz 3.40 GHz
> Ram 12.0 GB
> System type : 64-bit operating system
>
> VLC player
>
> Dell Dimension 8200 with XP, SP3, with Spywareblaster,
> Avast, Malwarebytes and Windows firewall.
>
>
> Seagate Barracuda 7200 160 Gb HD
> Intel (R) Pentium (R) 4 CPU 1.80 GHz
> Ram 1.79 GHz, 1.00 GB of RAM
> System type : 32-bit operating system
>
> Upgraded video card (GE 6200)
> Upgraded PCI card with (4) 2.0 ports
> Removed dial-up modem card
>
> and (external hard drives)
>
> Seagate Backup Plus 1(TB) 2.5 USB Portable HD
>
> 8500 and 8200 backups and Rescue Disk created
>
> WD BLACK SERIES WD2003FZEX 2TB 7200
> RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal
> Hard Drive
>
> Cloned OS from 8500, Rescue Disk created
>
> Patriot Flash stick
>
> Should I use the Seagate Backup Plus exclusively
> for the 8200 and clone it as well? I suppose not
> since it would have to be able to mount inside the
> 8200. Just a thought.
>
> Robert

Your 8200 doesn't have SATA. Your plan for the
8200 would include re-using the 40GB or 160GB
IDE drives you currently own. And you can do that,
when the time comes. No rush.

Backup the 8200 with Macrium. If the internal drive
in the 8200 fails, then install the 160GB IDE drive,
and restore using the Macrium boot CD plus the
..mrimg file on an external drive.

So the story for the 8200 is an "ordinary" one.
You already have your replacement drive on hand,
and probably in ten to fifteen minutes, could be
booting from the 160GB.

Naturally, all of this is subject to reviewing the
size of the current partitions on the 8200 internal
drive, and making sure they will fit in an emergency,
on whatever you stock for a replacement drive. I gather
the 8200 uses the old 137GB rule, so it will likely
fit just fine on the 160GB IDE.

*******

To control the 2TB drive, yes, you can leave the
USB cable connected. Use "Safely Remove". When the
LED goes out, turn off the power switch.

The next time you want to use the 2TB drive, it needs
to be "detected". The easiest way to do this, is reboot
the 8500. If you don't do that, if the 8500 remains
running, then you might have to unplug and replug the
USB, to achieve detection. Turn on the power to the
2TB enclosure, any time you expect to be using the drive
in the next few minutes. Then see if a reboot does the job.
And the drive is detected again.

The only risk to the 2TB enclosure, would be if the
8500 power supply fails. Most good quality supplies
have OV protection, so the chances of it shooting into
the stratosphere are limited.

While a lightning storm could affect the adapter
used to power the 2TB drive, I'll leave that to
your weather and electrical supply experiences, to
judge the risk implied there. Since the switch is off,
that reduces the risk of a transient coming though
when the disk is not being used. So the risk is probably
relatively low, for "near" lightning strikes. But the
adapter could still be blown, by being left plugged in
all the time, and something happens to your power. I don't
think I've ever had a wall adapter blown here, so again,
risk is likely low.

*******

The Windows Disk Management "shrink" function in Windows 7,
can only shrink the envelope size by half. Your partition
is ~900GB, you could shrink it to ~450GB. There is only
~98GB of data or so, on the cloned copy. Some wasteful
Windows function probably made up the rest of the space,
and Macrium didn't copy it (not needed).

If, instead of Disk Management, you used a third party
Partition Manager, you could shrink the partition further.

This is an example of a free partition manager.
I installed this in a VM, tested with Adwcleaner,
and there was no adware. And no prompt in the
installer, to install any adware.

http://www.paragon-software.com/home/pm-personal/eshop.html

The download is 50MB in size. It's from CNET, but
like Macrium, the download is clean. That means
Paragon likely pays $0.03 for each download.

http://software-files-a.cnet.com...
pm14free_x64_eng.exe
53,091,632 bytes

The product offers a huge manual as a separate download.
If you have insomnia, this will cure it. All disk-related
software products are like this. It's the nature of the
subject, to be both boring, and dangerous (if you make
a mistake).

http://download.paragon-software.com/doc/PM14Pro_en_manual.pdf

1) After the 50MB installer is run, you'll see this.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2vug3tt.jpg

Select "Switch to Full Scale Launcher"

2) Select the partition (i.e. J: on the 2TB drive).
Right-click and "Resize/Move partition".

http://i61.tinypic.com/2ef43k5.jpg

3) Adjust the numbers. Reduce size of top box.
Middle box should stay the same, whatever it contains now.
Bottom box is space gained by the operation.
Click the bottom box to verify the amount gained.
If the cloned partition had 98GB of files on J: ,
I would set the reduced size of J: to 120GB, leaving
22GB of slack space for that OS, if or when it ever runs.

http://i60.tinypic.com/32zmn2b.jpg

Click Yes, if the setup operation went well.

And the Apply button is up near the upper-left.
You must Apply to make it work.

4) Here, you can see I snipped 1000MB (~1GB)
from my original partition, and now that space
appears as "unallocated" down at the end of the disk.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2gufktf.jpg

HTH,
Paul

Mark Twain

July 28th 15, 04:00 AM

I'm not altogether sure whether the Western Digital 40GB HD
or the Seagate 160 GB HD works.

We've already did a backup for the 8200, or are you saying do
another now?

When I upgraded the 8200 to the Seagate 160GB HD, I bought (3)
HD's, one crashed, I can't recall the problem with the other but this one
I was able to get going. I barely found the SP1 link (maybe it was you
who helped me find it, otherwise I could not have uploaded all the
files to bring it up to SP3) I still have SP1 on a flash stick.

I really don't know for sure the condition of the other Seagate HD or
whether I can use it or not. I seem to remember that a friend sent me
the Linux CD I have to erase/format the Western Digital HD but
I couldn't get it to work so I sent the drive to him and he did it for me.
So I 'think' it should be good.

How can I connect the external HD to the 8500 and it not be detected?
Have it plugged it and turn on the power after I click reboot? Will the 8500
detect it ?

You mentioned the safety/remove and when the LED goes out. Just so
were on the same sheet of paper. When I wish to disconnect the HD I
click the icon located in the system tray to eject the device. Then it gives
me a message saying its ok to safety remove it After I see that message
I power down the external HD then unplug the USB cord but I see no
indicator your speaking of.

So your suggesting to use the third party program versus Device Manager
to shrink the file further, correct?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 28th 15, 06:00 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I'm not altogether sure whether the Western Digital 40GB HD
> or the Seagate 160 GB HD works.
>
> We've already did a backup for the 8200, or are you saying do
> another now?
>
> When I upgraded the 8200 to the Seagate 160GB HD, I bought (3)
> HD's, one crashed, I can't recall the problem with the other but this one
> I was able to get going. I barely found the SP1 link (maybe it was you
> who helped me find it, otherwise I could not have uploaded all the
> files to bring it up to SP3) I still have SP1 on a flash stick.
>
> I really don't know for sure the condition of the other Seagate HD or
> whether I can use it or not. I seem to remember that a friend sent me
> the Linux CD I have to erase/format the Western Digital HD but
> I couldn't get it to work so I sent the drive to him and he did it for me.
> So I 'think' it should be good.

When I have a problem with a hard drive here, I use
a Sharpie (marker pen), and mark the nature of the
problem on the drive. That makes it easier in future,
to decide whether the drive is a candidate for any
particular operation.

Whether you install the 160GB drive now in the 8200 for
a look at the disk contents, depends on your confidence
that the 8200 will survive the cabling changes and so on.
If you think the 8200 is still a rock-solid machine,
give your test a try. You will need to review the jumper
setting issue, to give the test a fair chance of working.
You will also need to be careful about boot order, checking
the BIOS setup screen and verifying that the "regular"
working hard drive, is still first in the boot order list.
You don't want the 160GB drive booting, unless you know it
has a good OS, and isn't filled with problems. For example,
imagine the 160GB had malware on it - that would be one
time you would not want the drive to be a boot candidate.

The two drives you propose using on that ribbon cable,
may both already be set to CS (Cable Select) jumper
setting, in which case, slap on the green rails and away
you go.

>
> How can I connect the external HD to the 8500 and it not be detected?
> Have it plugged it and turn on the power after I click reboot? Will the 8500
> detect it ?

The problem with "Safely Remove", is getting the OS to
recognize the drive, the next time it is powered. The way the
new enclosures work, if you're not willing to unplug the USB
connector, then plug it back in (with the drive powered), then
the alternative recognition method, is to reboot the OS.

On some USB devices, such as USB flash sticks, sometimes
even rebooting is not enough to get them detected. I have
USB flash sticks here, they need to be unplugged and plugged
in again, to be recognized.

USB metal connectors are good for 5000 insertions. That's
assuming that the connector dimensions are not distorted,
bent, or damaged. If the connector fits reasonably
smoothly, you can get 5000 cycles from them. The metal
is what makes the difference.

>
> You mentioned the safety/remove and when the LED goes out. Just so
> were on the same sheet of paper. When I wish to disconnect the HD I
> click the icon located in the system tray to eject the device. Then it gives
> me a message saying its ok to safety remove it After I see that message
> I power down the external HD then unplug the USB cord but I see no
> indicator your speaking of.

1) Safely Remove
2) LED goes off. Verify this.
3) Power off drive using the switch.
4) Time passes... you want to use the drive again.
5a) You don't want to disconnect the USB cable. Set the
power switch on. Reboot the 8500. See if when Windows
comes up, the drive is recognized. As the desktop appears,
the LED may come on.
5b) You decide you don't mind unplugging the USB cable.
Turn on the drive power. The LED stays off. Pull the
USB cable from the back of the computer. Plug it back in.
Don't bother to reboot the 8500. The LED should come on
a second or two after the USB cable is plugged in. The
8500 scanned for the hardware change, sees the drive, and
the sequence causes the LED to come on.

You can use either (5a) method or you can use (5b) method.
But the bottom line is, with the enclosure switched on,
the LED is remaining off, if you unplug and replug the USB
connector, that should work. While rebooting the 8500 may
work most of the time, to recognize a powered-up enclosure,
there is no guarantee that will work. This can be the case
with Linux, where booting the LiveCD a second time, it may
not see the powered (but LED off) enclosure.

I'd try and explain what the hardware in the enclosure
is doing. But the explanation is just as hare-brained
as the above explanation of the procedure. It's not going
to be any clearer to you, if I try and explain it. There
was a time, when the LED tended to stay on all the time,
the drive continued to spin. Those were easier times.
But, when enclosures worked that way, it was harder on
the hard drive inside. The USB disconnect logic now,
means less wear on the hard drive spindle. But occasionally,
you'll be confused about why the computer cannot detect
the hard drive. The computer needs to "probe" the enclosure.
A "plugin event", serves as an excuse for the computer to
probe the drive. The computer probes the enclosure. The
USB chip sees the "probe" request. It issues the spinup
command to the drive. The USB chip cannot respond to
outside stimulus, unless the ID string comes back from
the SATA hard drive. Then, the USB chip tells the 8500
the good news. As a result of the USB chip probing the
drive, the ID string coming back, the LED is turned on
by the USB chip. The LED blinks, any time a read/write
operation is attempted. The LED is lit solid, when there
is no activity.

When you "Safely Remove", the USB chip assumes you don't
want to talk to the drive any more. The 8500 has no
reason to probe the enclosure. Whether the power switch
goes on or off, makes no difference then. The USB chip
gets bus power (+5VSB) over the USB cable. The USB chip
is still powered. The hard drive has no power. There are
two power sources. If you unplug the USB cable, the USB
chip in the enclosure loses power. It's not supposed to
get phantom power from the wall adapter. When you next plug
in the USB cable on the enclosure, the USB chip "boots" anew.
It no longer remembers the Safely Remove you did on it.

So the new logic, is kinda event based. Something needs
to get the ball rolling. The powering is no longer all
jumbled together. The wall adapter powers only the hard
drive. The USB cable powers the USB chip inside the
enclosure. And things have to happen in a certain sequence,
to get the drive spinning again. There has to be a
kickoff event. Rebooting the computer, sometimes works
as the kickoff. But unplugging the USB cable (USB chip
loses power), then plugging it back in (USB chip starts
over), is a key way to kick things off.

>
> So your suggesting to use the third party program versus Device Manager
> to shrink the file further, correct?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert
>

Yes. You should be able to shrink J: and keep more
of your space for the BACKUPS partition you haven't
made yet. The free partition manager may make that
happen for you. Start with the product page, and
do the download using the button provided. You're using
the "free" version here, with limited functionality.
And the limited functionality is all that is needed.
The download from the CNET site, was clean when I
tested it. I couldn't find any adware in my virtual
machine.

http://www.paragon-software.com/home/pm-personal/eshop.html

Paul

Mark Twain

July 28th 15, 12:00 PM

At this point, I really don't want to open
up the 8200 now that I just got everything
working unless absolutely necessary.

I know its 15 years old but can I just buy
another HD for the 8200?

I did manage to boot with the external HD;
I connected the HD to the 8500 then restarted
the 8500 and powered up the HD. It brought
up mu desk top just like I have it. Then it
seemed to keep loading and waiting until I
couldn't hear the HD working and disconnected/
powered off/pulled the plug.

I still am not sure about the HD power off
sequence or if I did this right. The little
indicator kept flickering even after it said
it was safe to remove hardware.

Robert

Paul

July 28th 15, 01:33 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> At this point, I really don't want to open
> up the 8200 now that I just got everything
> working unless absolutely necessary.
>
> I know its 15 years old but can I just buy
> another HD for the 8200?
>
> I did manage to boot with the external HD;
> I connected the HD to the 8500 then restarted
> the 8500 and powered up the HD. It brought
> up mu desk top just like I have it. Then it
> seemed to keep loading and waiting until I
> couldn't hear the HD working and disconnected/
> powered off/pulled the plug.
>
> I still am not sure about the HD power off
> sequence or if I did this right. The little
> indicator kept flickering even after it said
> it was safe to remove hardware.
>
> Robert

IDE drives are harder to find.

Here's a 120GB for $55, and it isn't a refurbished product.

7200.9 ST3120213A $55 (120GB, 7200 RPM 2MB Cache IDE Ultra ATA100)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148094

You would check the size of your 8200 partitions, to make
sure that's big enough. While you could buy a larger

You could buy a 320GB IDE for $60 (only $5 more), and
when you restore from your Macrium backup, this might
well be limited to 137GB. It depends on the Service Pack
level of the OS, as to how much of this disk you could
use on the 8200. Still, it takes you from the 120GB the
other one offers, to at least 137GB.

7200.10 ST3320620A $60 (320GB, 7200 RPM, 16MB Cache IDE Ultra ATA100)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148139

Intel chipsets don't do more than ATA100, so there is
no incentive to go faster. Intel chipsets read at 100,
and write at 88.8MB/sec, due to how strobes are generated
on the Southbridge. VIA chipsets were the ones that could
do ATA133. And then, if you had an ATA133 hard drive, you
could go a tiny bit faster. I don't think I ever had a
setup that would do it. So ATA100 is fine. The
amount of cache is immaterial too, as there is little
evidence the cache was used for anything performance
related. IBM used to use their cache as a scratchpad
for bad block management. Only some newer drives seem
to be getting good mileage from the cache.

*******

For the external 2TB drive, just try to use Safely Remove
if you can.

These modern setups are supposed to be
pretty good on "leakage paths", so there really
should not be any LED flickering type stuff
after spindown. I had a Firewire disk enclosure,
that had leakage problems. The enclosure LED would
come on at half intensity, after I would stop
using the enclosure. Very unnerving. My newer stuff
is pretty good on that kind of thing, and there's no signs
of power leaking from adapter side, to USB bus side, or
elsewhere.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 29th 15, 02:00 AM

At present I have a Seagate Barracuda 160 GB
in the 8200 (which truncated to 137)and you
explained why very well so either the 120GB or
320GB should work. I like the 320GB option which
should also truncate to 137 GB

I'm using the Patriot Flash to show you the
sequence I use for disconnecting the external HD
because its the same and I think I'm not understanding
you so I want to be clear on this.

http://i61.tinypic.com/vs1bfb.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/243gi2w.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/rk7ib7.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/o0189k.jpg

After I see the last message I power off the external
HD, then disconnect the USB cable.

Your saying after I turn the power off there should be
no lights flickering (active) on the external HD, before
disconnecting, correct?

I did hear a thump from the speakers again though,,
so I will pay EXTRA special attention to make sure the
HD isn't flickering etc. although mimi/MMC,SD/RS light
on the 8500 always flickers and thats what I thought you
meant.

So now that I have hopefully booted the external HD I can
go back to your instructions and use the 3rd party software
to shrink it?

Robert

Paul

July 29th 15, 02:13 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> At present I have a Seagate Barracuda 160 GB
> in the 8200 (which truncated to 137)and you
> explained why very well so either the 120GB or
> 320GB should work. I like the 320GB option which
> should also truncate to 137 GB
>
> I'm using the Patriot Flash to show you the
> sequence I use for disconnecting the external HD
> because its the same and I think I'm not understanding
> you so I want to be clear on this.
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/vs1bfb.jpg
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/243gi2w.jpg
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/rk7ib7.jpg
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/o0189k.jpg
>
> After I see the last message I power off the external
> HD, then disconnect the USB cable.

Yes.

>
> Your saying after I turn the power off there should be
> no lights flickering (active) on the external HD, before
> disconnecting, correct?

Yes. It's just the LED on the external I'm interested in.
As a means of determining the hard drive is not
doing something at the time.

>
> I did hear a thump from the speakers again though,,
> so I will pay EXTRA special attention to make sure the
> HD isn't flickering etc. although mimi/MMC,SD/RS light
> on the 8500 always flickers and thats what I thought you
> meant.

It's OK for the memory card reader to flash if it wants to.
You didn't Safely Remove that thing.

Getting a thump from speakers can come about a number
of ways. One way, is for the electrical transient of
switching off or unplugging something, going though the
AC power adapter used by the speakers. Another way, is
for a transient to be coupled into the Line Out wiring
from the computer.

>
> So now that I have hopefully booted the external HD I can
> go back to your instructions and use the 3rd party software
> to shrink it?
>
> Robert

Remember, that the cloned OS was supposed to be booted by itself,
not with the original (source) disk present. As long as you're
happy that the thing boots and the OS is functional, there's no
further comment I can add.

And yes, if your other tests are complete, you can take the
Partition Management software and shrink the J: partition.
And that's to give you more room for making your BACKUPS
partition. I would give it maybe 20GB more, than the files
on the partition currently occupy. If the files take 100GB,
maybe shrink the partition to 120GB. Leave a little room.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 29th 15, 02:13 AM

Here's the 8200:

http://i59.tinypic.com/2igoppi.jpg

Paul

July 29th 15, 03:59 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Here's the 8200:
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/2igoppi.jpg

The values shown there (127.99) are in GiB.

IDE drives, way back when, had 28 bit addresses.

0xFFFFFFF = 2^28 sectors * 512 bytes/sector = 137,438,953,472 bytes
= 137GB

If you take 137,438,953,472 / (1024*1024*1024) = 128GiB

GiB is a power_of_two unit of measure. GB is decimal.
The Microsoft label is likely wrong in Disk Management.

You are using 28 GiB on the partition, and either
a 120GB or 320GB drive, when Macrium restores to it, there
would be sufficient room to hold all the files.
Macrium can resize on restoration. For the copy I've
got, it can resize only the last partition. And in your
example, C: is the one and only partition (it's also
the last partition), so it could be resized on restore.
By doing resize on restore, a 128GiB partition can
be fitted in a 120GB hole.

Macrium would not need a resize operation, if restoring
to the 320GB disk. The 128GiB limit would still exist,
the restore would neatly use 128GiB of the disk. Leaving
the rest unallocated as well as in-accessible for other
usage.

Only if the correct Service Pack is in place, can you
fix that. The OS is designed to prevent usage of
the disk, for cases where it is known the disk could
become corrupted. That's why there is a 128GiB or 137GB
limitation.

Decimal units of measure, were invented by disk companies
to "make disk drives look bigger". Using the binary units
of GiB, makes some addressing issues easier to understand.
128 being a power_of_two number. Units are mixed, willy-nilly
on the computer, and I generally don't waste time reviewing
my posts for consistency. Some of the info shown in Microsoft
dialog boxes, is wrong. But only someone with time to kill,
could review all of that and correct each one when they find one.

*******

This article describes how they fixed the 128GiB limitation
at the hardware level. The table there, shows addressing
limitations on the way how things used to work. If the address
rolls over at the hardware level, the low part of the disk
gets corrupted.

http://www.t13.org/Documents/UploadedDocuments/technical/e00101r1.pdf

Register Definition
-------- ----------
Sector Count Sector count (7:0)
Sector Number Sector number or LBA (7:0) \
Cylinder Low Cylinder low or LBA (15:8) \__ 0xFFFFFFF
Cylinder High Cylinder High or LBA (23:16) / (the last LBA available)
Device/Head Head or LBA (27:24)/

By double-pumping the registers (the subject of that proposal
years ago), the issue was instantly fixed. Whoever thought
of that hack, was a genius. The intention was to make a
backward compatible workaround. Firmware existed around
2003 or so, to make that widely possible in the
industry (break the 28 bit limitation).

Let's say I am merrily writing the disk

OS LBA value Hardware takes Results
lowest 28 bits

0x0FFFFFFB FFFFFFB
0x0FFFFFFC FFFFFFC
0x0FFFFFFD FFFFFFD
0x0FFFFFFE FFFFFFE
0x0FFFFFFF FFFFFFF
0x10000000 0000000 oops! I just overwrite the MBR!

When using 48 bit LBA disks and hardware, the number
0x10000000 is easily represented to the disk drive, so
location 0 does not get clobbered. Problem solved. The
hardware on the drive is "this wide"...

OS LBA value Hardware takes Results
(really big disks) lowest 48 bits

0x0000000010000000 000010000000 No problem, no rollover

See, isn't this fun ?

HTH,
Paul

Mark Twain

July 29th 15, 04:20 AM

I do have SP3 installed on the 8200, so would that
still truncate the 320GB?

I expect the 320GB is the better option especially
for only $5 more. Also as you pointed out IDE drives
are getting harder to find and I've had good experience
with Seagate.

Then when need I replace the old drive with the new;
use the backups, etc from the external 1TB HD and rescue
disk to load the OS back, correct?

I haven't made the HD purchase as yet. There's no rush but
I would like to get one while I still can. So I'll wait
for your reply before doing so.

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 29th 15, 04:38 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I do have SP3 installed on the 8200, so would that
> still truncate the 320GB?
>
> I expect the 320GB is the better option especially
> for only $5 more. Also as you pointed out IDE drives
> are getting harder to find and I've had good experience
> with Seagate.
>
> Then when need I replace the old drive with the new;
> use the backups, etc from the external 1TB HD and rescue
> disk to load the OS back, correct?
>
> I haven't made the HD purchase as yet. There's no rush but
> I would like to get one while I still can. So I'll wait
> for your reply before doing so.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Robert
>

SP3 should remove that limit.

If and when you install the 320GB some day,
you can use your Partition Manager software
to good effect there (shrink or expand as you
like).

Yes, restoring from Macrium, using your Macrium
boot CD, to the new blank drive, that should work.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 29th 15, 05:37 AM

I just purchased the 320 GB HD from the
link you gave. ($65.00 total with shipping).

So SP3 will let the 8200 have the 320GB capability?
If so, I'm almost tempted to remove the 160 GB HD
and put in the 320GB HD. Although as I said, it's
main purpose is to backup the 8500 but its nice to
know.

Just out of curiosity, do you see any obvious advantage
in putting it in now? Would it run faster? What
would you do? Just put it away in storage for that rainy
day?

Thanks
Robert

Mark Twain

July 29th 15, 05:40 AM

Still haven't gotten back to shrinking the external
HD yet with the third party program you provided but
will do that later tonight.

Do we need to do anything else? After that? I'll let
you know if I encounter any problems.

Robert

Paul

July 29th 15, 08:02 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Still haven't gotten back to shrinking the external
> HD yet with the third party program you provided but
> will do that later tonight.
>
> Do we need to do anything else? After that? I'll let
> you know if I encounter any problems.
>
> Robert

Shrink the J: partition.
Create the new backup partition, starting at the end of J:

Paul

Paul

July 29th 15, 09:32 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I just purchased the 320 GB HD from the
> link you gave. ($65.00 total with shipping).
>
> So SP3 will let the 8200 have the 320GB capability?
> If so, I'm almost tempted to remove the 160 GB HD
> and put in the 320GB HD. Although as I said, it's
> main purpose is to backup the 8500 but its nice to
> know.
>
> Just out of curiosity, do you see any obvious advantage
> in putting it in now? Would it run faster? What
> would you do? Just put it away in storage for that rainy
> day?
>
> Thanks
> Robert

Just to get my ducks in a row here...

Your picture obviously shows you booting with a 160GB disk.
So there isn't a problem with your BIOS seeing the disk.
And that means that a larger disk should also work. There
should not be any barrier between 137GB and 2.2TB. The largest
IDE drive was 750GB. They moved to SATA when larger drives came
out, and stopped making larger IDE ones.

http://i59.tinypic.com/2igoppi.jpg

*******

This is some history of using large drives with 8200.

http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/desktop/f/3514/t/19345111

"found out that I had to flash the BIOS
and the full 300GB (well, 279GB) was recognized."

http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/desktop/f/3514/t/19269576

"So far as I know, all Dimension 8200 BIOS versions A02 and
later support drives larger than 137 GB."

The releases are listed on the Dimension 8200 downloads page. The
release I found was A09. Notice the release dates are tightly
clustered. Industry-wide BIOS (firmware) support for >137GB
drives, was in the year 2003, so the Dell support was a bit
early (not that unusual). The significance of 2003, is the
BIOS companies (AMI, Award, Phoenix) were putting support
in every BIOS. But if a company knew about it, and they had
source for that part of the BIOS code, they could fix it before
2003 arrived.

http://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/19/Drivers/DriversDetails?driverId=R49451

A09,A09 29 Oct 2002
A08,A08 16 Sep 2002 11:49:11 AM
A07,A07 16 Aug 2002 3:57:16 PM
A05,A05 08 May 2002 7:47:13 AM
A04,A04 22 Apr 2002 8:59:04 AM
A03,A03 18 Dec 2001 1:46:45 PM
A01,A01 15 Oct 2001 3:22:08 PM

The A02 release is missing from the list, so I
can't see the release note for it.

When the computer starts, some machines have a "BIOS string"
with release information, and it is printed as text
along with the rest of the POST information. There, you
could attempt to spot the release number. Since you're
already booting, this is just for peace of mind.
Sometimes the released BIOS number is printed
on a paper label, on the BIOS chip on the motherboard.
Looking at the screen display is easier :-)

*******

The drive cannot run too much faster. Remember that
all Intel IDE implementations (all the ones I've got
here), have a limit of 100MB/sec on read and 88.9 MB/sec
on write. (I'm referring to Intel chipsets, like the
850, and the Southbridge IDE design. Intel never embraced
ATA133 like VIA or Maxtor did, and as far as I know, Intel
never fixed the write strobe on the cable.)

The original drive in the Dell might be 65MB/sec,
and the IDE drives cannot go too much faster, before
the crappy Southbridge interface bottlenecks things.
Yes, you might get a tiny improvement in speed.
The seek time on all these 7200 RPM drives is
going to be roughly the same, as they didn't make too
many drives with aggressive seek. That shaves maybe
a millisecond or two off the seek time.

One reason the seek isn't too aggressive, may have
something to do with a patent fight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_acoustic_management

The HDTune site lists this result for the new drive

ST3320620A 74.7 MB/sec 15.1 ms

Some 160GB drives from that era were 56MB/sec
and 70MB/sec. So it would be a tiny bit better
than a 56MB/sec one.

*******

The idea behind storage, is to have a new drive
without a lot of service hours on it, in your
spares cabinet. Since the technology is old,
and warranty terms are unclear, you want to
*test* the drive when you get it, and prove that
it works. Once the drive is *tested* it can
go back in your cabinet.

So, if this was my little project, this would be
the sequence.

1) Make sure current 160GB drive is backed up to
the external USB hard drive. This is a "just
in case". You tell me you already have this
backup file in hand.

2) Buy 320GB drive.
3) Take delivery. Fit green rails. Check the jumper
on the 160GB drive. If it is set to "CS", set
the 320GB drive to "CS" as well. Slide the drive in.
Arrange the ribbon cable for least stress. Cable up
the data and the power.
4) Start the computer and enter the BIOS. Verify the
boot order points to the 160GB drive.
5) Save and exit from the BIOS. Boot.
6) Using Macrium, clone the 160GB to the 320GB.
There will be space left over at the end.
7) Shut down. Open the 8200. Remove the data cable
from the two drives. Pull the 160GB. Set up the
config this time, so only the 320GB drive is present.
Drive jumper remains CS. Drive goes on the end connector.
Close up the case, power up, verify the boot order.
Save and exit the BIOS. Boot the 320GB drive.
8) Test the 320GB drive for a few days. If you gather
any downloads during that time, transfer them to the
USB stick at the end of the test interval.
9) Using HDTune, you can check the SMART statistics,
and look at the power-on-hours. This is a way of
determining whether the drive is used or new. The
power-on-hours should be a fairly low number. Sometimes
the visual condition of the purchased drive, tells you
it is a "pull".
10) Now, you can put back the 160GB by itself. Use the end
connector on the cable. CS cable select for the jumper is
fine. Transfer the files off the USB stick, the ones you
don't want to be left orphan on the 320GB drive.
11) If the 160GB drive ever fails, now you have a substitute
that is ready to go. The 320GB sits, with OS in place,
in your cabinet.

*******

One final warning. You are using WinXP SP3. This is good.
It's safe.

But remember that the factory recovery partition on the
Dell, is not likely to be SP3. It's likely to be WinXP Gold.
If you do a factory restore, and the restore is staged on a
large drive, that might cause problems. If you ever go to use
the restore copy of the OS (the copy provided by Dell when
the computer was new), just be careful not to mix that
with any partitions straddling the 137GB mark. Yes, you
could install SP3, but there would be an interval, between
original Gold installation, and adding the SP3 update, where
you could corrupt something on the disk (effectively a
corruption loop). I don't think you're going to get in
a mess like that. You've done well so far with that
computer (with the 160GB in place), and at the moment,
you have quite a collection of resources (backups) where
you won't be needing that Dell recovery partition.

I have the same problem here, with my Win2K SP2 installer
CD and older computers. If that particular patch level of
OS is installed, I can't connect a large disk to the machine.
I ran one computer here, for about a year in "danger" mode,
where any large disk connected would have been corrupted.
So I never forgot the "rules" and ruined a disk. Eventually,
I upgraded the OS to SP4 and the danger passed. The reason
for not using SP4 earlier, is some CAD software I was using,
was only supposed to work on SP2, and there was some problem
on SP4. That probably wasn't true, but I took their word
for it.

HTH,
Paul

Mark Twain

July 29th 15, 10:31 AM

Here's the shrinkage:

http://i60.tinypic.com/2dqvj9u.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/zk4ok7.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/wvea36.jpg

How do I create a backup partition starting at
the end of J: ?

I'll do a backup with Macrium of the 160GB HD
tomorrow just to make sure its current.

The 320GB is ordered.

Hopefully the situation of a Dell factory restore
will never happen again! I did that once and it was
a nightmare.

Robert

Paul

July 29th 15, 10:44 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Here's the shrinkage:
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/2dqvj9u.jpg
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/zk4ok7.jpg
>
> http://i62.tinypic.com/wvea36.jpg
>
> How do I create a backup partition starting at
> the end of J: ?
>
> I'll do a backup with Macrium of the 160GB HD
> tomorrow just to make sure its current.
>
> The 320GB is ordered.
>
> Hopefully the situation of a Dell factory restore
> will never happen again! I did that once and it was
> a nightmare.
>
> Robert

You have a good chunk of space now. 1718GB.

A good partition management tool, should have
a "Create Partition" option. Have a look around
the menus in that tool, to see if one is
present.

*******

I find it just as easy, to exit the Partition Management
tool, and use Disk Management in Windows. (diskmgmt.msc)
In Disk Management, you click in the unallocated
area and select "New Partition" from the short menu.
You can define it to be NTFS, assign a label such
as BACKUPS, and so on. Just be careful to select
"Perform a quick format" tick box. Using quick format,
that avoids the drive visiting every sector on
the 1718GB area. Only the metadata for the new file
system is written, which takes a minute or two.

In the upper part of the Disk Management window,
there may be a notation for the partition that
is in the process of being formatted. If you need
a progress indicator. But it shouldn't take too long.

If you neglect to tick "Quick Format", the operation
could take a couple hours with the disk LED on the
whole time.

And that's the thing about big disks. Make a mistake
in the planning, or the execution of a plan, and you
may need to wait hours for an outcome. With some
of the new disks, the wait can be six hours. For
certain large RAID arrays, some of the operations
take all week (seven days). You don't want to forget
to tick any tick boxes when working on projects like
that :-)

Paul

Mark Twain

July 29th 15, 11:02 AM

Since were going to open up the 8200 and
be exchanging HD's and such did you want
to test the other Seagate 160GB and Western
Digital 40GB HD's?

Robert

Mark Twain

July 29th 15, 11:59 AM

I had an update to NVidia which failed and
then I tried to create a Partition but said
it must be formatted first.

http://i59.tinypic.com/2mccei8.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/2m78dwi.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/24e87f8.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/21l8xsn.jpg

Robert

Paul

July 29th 15, 02:35 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I had an update to NVidia which failed and
> then I tried to create a Partition but said
> it must be formatted first.
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/2mccei8.jpg
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/2m78dwi.jpg
>
> http://i57.tinypic.com/24e87f8.jpg
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/21l8xsn.jpg
>
> Robert
>

On the formatting behavior, I've been seeing some
of that too. I define a partition in Disk Management,
Disk Management seems to be formatting it directly,
but there is a race condition. The "raw partition"
is getting recognized by the operating system, before
Disk Management is finished processing it. That causes
a dialog suggesting you format it, to pop up. While
at the same time, Disk Management, in its own window,
is also formatting it. It's just harder to see in
Disk Management, as the status is in the top section
of Disk Management.

You can dismiss the request to format, for that
second tall rectangular box. As by the time
that thing pops up, the original format is
finished.

You can test this, by going to My Computer,
looking the the new K: partition or look
for its name, and right-click in there, and
create a blank text file from the menu.
That will prove that you have just created
a file on the partition, and therefore, it
was formatted by the first step. And a second
formatting operation is totally unnecessary.
A partition cannot hold a file (by Drag and Drop
or by creating one), unless it is formatted and
a file system laid out there.

I don't know if some security update did this
or what happened. But I don't think it always
did that. I don't think I've seen that on my
Windows 7 laptop. But I have seen it on my
squeaky clean new Windows 7 SP1 installation.

*******

The error 2738 is here. The poster here, claims
the AV software did it, and it's some previously
altered registry key breaking the installation.
It's not the fact an AV is "active", it's some
damage that an AV can do to the registry,
disturbing a "normal" value.

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/526016/geforce-drivers/error-2738-fix-blame-your-old-antivirus-for-this-/

Now, I've never seen a driver like the one you're
using. Does the entire installer back out, if
one component fails ?

The dialog on the screen says you were attempting
to install 353.30.

You can use "devmgmt.msc" (the Device Manager",
click the Display Adapter. right click and do
Properties on it. The Display Adapter will show:

Driver Provider: NVIDIA
Driver DateL x/xx/xxxx
Driver Version: 6.14.11.7519
Digital Signer: Microsoft Windows ...

Now, the number is the important part for this discussion.

The driver release in this case is 175.19.

Notice that the number is parsed a bit differently,
to make a driver version from it. The last
five digits or so, is what is used today for a version.

Why I want you to check the number, is to see if the
entire driver installer backed out, and you're still
running a previous version or not.

Rebooting the computer, would give a chance for the
driver to be reloaded, so you have some idea what
driver it is using now.

There are a couple ways to roll back the driver,
assuming the current driver attempt 353.30 is
still there.

1) Use Device Manager, click the Display Adapter,
find the video card, right click and select
Properties. If you then click the "Driver" tab
on the top bar, you may see a "Roll Back Driver"
button just above "Uninstall". Roll Bacl Driver
works to a driver depth of 1. You can only go back
one release. I've never tested this.

2) You could look in Programs and Features (since this
is Windows 7). There might be an entry like
"NVidia Drivers" in there. But the damn thing won't
show the release number.

So somehow, you need to verify what driver is
currently running. I think doing a reboot of
the 8500 is probably safe at this point. NVidia
probably managed to have *some* driver running.
Then you can use Device Manager, Properties, check
the driver number "6.14.11.7519" type value,
and use the lower five digits or so to figure out
what driver is currently running the video card.

Note that the NVidia dialogs don't exactly line up.
One dialog says the error happened during PHYSX
installation. The main installer panel claims
ShadowPlay failed, which might be the next thing
it was going to install.

PHYSX uses the array of processors on the graphics
card, to do physics calculations for particle
trajectories in games. The idea was, you could
have a 3D explosion in a video game, the physics
calculation would work out the direction and velocity
of particles. If they collided, the collision might
be elastic or inelastic. New direction and velocity
would be worked out. The PHYSX driver can also run
on the CPU as far as I know, so there is more than
one option to get game support of that type.

The original PHYSX was an add-in card with a single
big chip on it. And the chip did the calculation.
NVidia bought the company, and moved the physics
computations to the shader processors. So now, you
don't have to buy the add-in card. I think as well,
for partitioning, you can buy two video cards,
one can do physics, and the second could render
the game video signal.

The ShadowPlay feature is for recording the image
of the game on the screen, as a video file for later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_Shadowplay

And while the dialog box claims the driver for that
failed to install, I think it's more likely the
physx one failed.

I don't have a good answer for you. I would check
in Device Manager, what version of driver is running,
and see if it put back the old driver or not. I like
to keep my video driver files in a folder somewhere,
so if a re-installation is needed, I can get the driver
situation back to where I had it. And that covers
cases where the previous driver absolutely needs to be
reinstalled.

You must have a kickass video card on the 8500,
for that stuff to agree to install... I doubt such
a video card installer would be very happy with
my old hardware (no shaders).

Paul

Paul

July 29th 15, 02:41 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Since were going to open up the 8200 and
> be exchanging HD's and such did you want
> to test the other Seagate 160GB and Western
> Digital 40GB HD's?
>
> Robert
>

Not at this point.

You have to save some of these projects
for a later rainy day :-) I think I have
a couple 40GB drives here, that I don't have
written on them whether they're working or not.
They're good sitting right where they are.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 29th 15, 10:18 PM

You're right, and to test it and did create
a Word document and saved it in My Documents.
The Drive letter is 'I' not K.

The reason is because when it first asked me
'J' would be easier to read than 'I' on a
computer. So I guess it defaulted.

Regarding the video driver; I just followed the
NVidia pop-up which appeared when I logged on
the Administrator's Account. The video card is a
NVidia GEForce GT 620 Here's my driver version:

http://i60.tinypic.com/2mfja7r.jpg

Robert

Mark Twain

July 29th 15, 10:41 PM

While rummaging around I found I had this:

http://i60.tinypic.com/2j1545e.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/2q2edu0.jpg

Robert

Mark Twain

July 29th 15, 11:45 PM

When ordering the 8500 I thought that a (1)TB HD
would be sufficient but I wanted to maxed out the
RAM(12MB)but by doing so I got Win 7 Professional
instead of Win 8 which I didn't want. I also upgraded
the video card they offered.

I'm not a gamer but I reasoned it might help with
resolution and viewing videos etc.

Robert

Mark Twain

July 29th 15, 11:52 PM

Although it shows an older driver version,
in the Add/Remove program list it shows the
update took:

http://i62.tinypic.com/jg6tc5.jpg

So why is it not reflected as the latest update?

Robert

Mark Twain

July 30th 15, 02:03 AM

I also found these:

http://i61.tinypic.com/1zyimww.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/1h740x.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/opd254.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/20h1ojq.jpg

I tried using the adapter once but for some
reason it didn't work? It wasn't compatible
with the 8200 or something?

The gray USB cord came with my Sony FD-92
camera to upload pictures to the computer. Now
I just use the flash stick inserted into the
SD/RS port on the 8500.

Robert

Paul

July 30th 15, 03:06 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> You're right, and to test it and did create
> a Word document and saved it in My Documents.
> The Drive letter is 'I' not K.
>
> The reason is because when it first asked me
> 'J' would be easier to read than 'I' on a
> computer. So I guess it defaulted.
>
> Regarding the video driver; I just followed the
> NVidia pop-up which appeared when I logged on
> the Administrator's Account. The video card is a
> NVidia GEForce GT 620 Here's my driver version:
>
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/2mfja7r.jpg
>
> Robert

Driver 353.30.

So it didn't back out the driver it was installing.
That's the version number of the thing you were installing.

That means the features PHYSX and ShadowPlay might
not be installed. The ShadowPlay is likely to only
be used by the NVidia software, as other softwares
are not going to know about it.

You could roll back the driver from Device Manager,
using the button. At this point, I don't know if that
is worthwhile or not. Maybe the previous driver was
sorta half installed to ? How many of these NVidia
updates have you installed ?

Paul

Paul

July 30th 15, 03:08 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> While rummaging around I found I had this:
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/2j1545e.jpg
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/2q2edu0.jpg
>
> Robert

USB2 to SATA/IDE.

Yes, this could be used with the 40GB and the 160GB
IDE drives.

You would need to examine the jumper, and it will
likely require "Master" or "Master Only", as
seen on the jumper table on the drive label.

It might mention the jumper setting in the instructions.

The weakest part of kits like that, is the quality
of the adapter. On a few brands, the drive can get
damaged (you check Newegg reviews, to see if anyone
is unhappy with the included adapter).

Paul

Paul

July 30th 15, 03:12 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I also found these:
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/1zyimww.jpg
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/1h740x.jpg
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/opd254.jpg
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/20h1ojq.jpg
>
> I tried using the adapter once but for some
> reason it didn't work? It wasn't compatible
> with the 8200 or something?
>
> The gray USB cord came with my Sony FD-92
> camera to upload pictures to the computer. Now
> I just use the flash stick inserted into the
> SD/RS port on the 8500.
>
> Robert
>

Yes, the 8500 front panel, duplicates this device.

It should have worked on the 8200. Now that you have
a USB2 card, you could test it again if you want.
The device should have worked on a USB1.1 port,
and would have been slightly slower there.

But if the 8500 handles things for you, this
one can stay in the box. As a duplicate. And
I don't know what happens if you connect two
of these to the computer. That issue has
never come up. I presume it works OK, but
don't know that for a fact.

Paul

Paul

July 30th 15, 03:16 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Although it shows an older driver version,
> in the Add/Remove program list it shows the
> update took:
>
> http://i62.tinypic.com/jg6tc5.jpg
>
> So why is it not reflected as the latest update?
>
> Robert

You can see there is no NVidia ShadowPlay listed.
And with their goofy numbering system, I can't tell
if the PHYSX is the current one or not. Looks like
it is. Even though there was that error. Maybe
the installer error happens after the driver files
were loaded, and only some "post-processing" step
failed. I expect when the PHYSX installer thought
it failed, it didn't run the ShadowPlay step.

And if you installed that driver again, it should
jam up on the PHYSX step again. I don't think the
driver is clever enough, to notice that only
ShadowPlay needs to be installed, and just
install that one for you.

So if you wanted a chance of fixing it, you'd
have to follow that complicated recipe I
linked to. And is it worth it ?

Paul

Paul

July 30th 15, 04:12 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> When ordering the 8500 I thought that a (1)TB HD
> would be sufficient but I wanted to maxed out the
> RAM(12MB)but by doing so I got Win 7 Professional
> instead of Win 8 which I didn't want. I also upgraded
> the video card they offered.
>
> I'm not a gamer but I reasoned it might help with
> resolution and viewing videos etc.
>
> Robert

95% of that NVidia driver, is a waste of time for
your intended purposes :-) Most of the driver
content, helps gamers.

And it's too bad the driver content is so
complicated. If NVidia used their old
"tick box" scheme they used with their chipset
drivers in the past, it would be easier to
pick and choose sub-driver pieces, and try
and finish the install.

But at this point, I suspect the PHYSX driver
will keep getting stuck on the registry key
issue. And it's a registry key not owned by
the owner of the computer, which requires
changing the ownership, adjusting the registry
setting, and changing the ownership back
(gee, thanks Microsoft).

As for the driver rollback option in Device
Manager, that would likely only rollback one
of the items in the Programs and Features list.
Rather than rolling them all back. And this is
what happens when NVidia fools around with
the driver model.

If the computer works to your satisfaction,
you can leave it like this. If you're a neat
and tidy guy, you would follow (or at least
examine) whether the GUID keys mentioned
here are present.

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/526016/geforce-drivers/error-2738-fix-blame-your-old-antivirus-for-this-/

Then re-install the driver again. 278MB.
The installer can be unpacked with 7ZIP (for
a look), but I couldn't see that registry key
being used in there (by any simple means). Just
looking at the files, the main installer is probably
tripping up, rather than the folder of stuff for
PHYSX.

http://www.geforce.com/drivers/results/86504

The mess may have been left, by some previous
version of Avast. And that's why some step of
the PHYSX driver got stuck. Although why the
PHYSX driver needs or should fool with such a
key, that's kinda weird.

Paul

Mark Twain

July 30th 15, 05:01 AM

NVidia Pop-up ocurred on User Account when
I logged on, so I restarted computer and logged
in the Administrators Account and opened Nivida
from the System Tray and checked for Updates and
sure enough it was there:

http://i60.tinypic.com/mahthw.jpg

Robert

Mark Twain

July 30th 15, 05:09 AM

It's a shame that 95% of the video card is
for gaming. Still it seems to do a credible
job for my purposes and certainly as good
or better than the one it replaced.

Robert

Mark Twain

July 30th 15, 07:04 AM

Just to make sure I have the latest
version 353.62 and that the update
worked, I checked:

http://i59.tinypic.com/72g313.jpg

I also saw this:

http://i62.tinypic.com/wa6jyh.jpg

Should I un-tick the updates for optimal
game settings, since I don't use it? Or
would it better to have all updates for it?

Robert

Paul

July 30th 15, 09:28 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> Just to make sure I have the latest
> version 353.62 and that the update
> worked, I checked:
>
> http://i59.tinypic.com/72g313.jpg
>
> I also saw this:
>
> http://i62.tinypic.com/wa6jyh.jpg
>
> Should I un-tick the updates for optimal
> game settings, since I don't use it? Or
> would it better to have all updates for it?
>
> Robert

The driver changes they will have worked on
the most, will be for Windows 10 installations
happening at this very moment.

Older OSes, the idea will be to not break them.

The "Optimal Game settings" should only
be triggered, if an actual 3D game is playing.
I don't see a reason for the hardware to react
otherwise.

If you run GPGPU/CUDA software, that might
put the card in 3D mode or bump the video
card clock. For most other purposes, the
2D clock rate is sufficient.

The card changes speed, between 2D and 3D mode.
For the card to stay cool, the clock rate is
reduced when viewing the desktop, reading
email, that sort of 2D thing. But a full fledged
3D game, the clock rate increases, the fan
becomes a little noisy, and so on.

If you want to see your video card in 3D mode,
you could try one of the benchmarks from the
3DMark series. I haven't bothered with this
one, as my hardware isn't really up to it.
My $50 video card would only hang its head
in shame :-)

http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/3dmark_11.html

The benchmark plays synthetic scenery and action,
which highlight the latest 3D effects in video hardware.
Typically, I look at these pictures and go "Um, so
what's the difference" :-) But some people take
their toys seriously. The benchmark returns a
"numeric" rating, and you can compare cards to
see how much better one card is than another.

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/wp-content/uploads/3dmark11_ss8.jpg

On one of the older benchmarks, one of my older
cards got a rating of "5000" and another was
rated "35000". So you can pretend that it's important
that one card is 7x better than the other. They all
get slow eventually, when the latest game
smothers them in "detail".

Paul

Mark Twain

July 30th 15, 10:27 AM

So the only remaining items to do are
to backup the 160GB HD when the 320GB
HD arrives; insert the 320 into the
8200 and clone the 160 to it. Then
remove the 160 and test the 320 for a
few days.

If all goes well, re-install the 160 and
remove/box/label/store 320. Correct?

Then we can go back to computer freezes *L*

Robert

Mark Twain

July 30th 15, 11:11 AM

O.T. : This has nothing at all to do with the
8200 or 8500 but I thought since the thread is
active I would ask you a quick question.

I just bought a Yamaha CRX TS10 Stereo System

https://www.google.com/search?q=yamaha+crx+ts10&biw=1684&bih=939&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMIzK-2j9j3xgIViKWICh39QQHL

but it didn't have a remote. So I bought that
separately. While trying to find out a little
more information about the unit and the year
it was made I came across the fact that the
remote uses a lithium battery which concerns me
a great deal.

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/352402/Yamaha-Tsx-20.html?page=13#manual

I'm surprised Yamaha would use such a dangerous item
with their product and actually state so in their manual
instead of using safer AA or AAA batteries.

I haven't received either yet but I'm not so sure I
want to use the remote after reading the above.

Do you know of an alternate universal remote?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

July 30th 15, 11:21 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> So the only remaining items to do are
> to backup the 160GB HD when the 320GB
> HD arrives; insert the 320 into the
> 8200 and clone the 160 to it. Then
> remove the 160 and test the 320 for a
> few days.
>
> If all goes well, re-install the 160 and
> remove/box/label/store 320. Correct?
>
> Then we can go back to computer freezes *L*
>
> Robert

Yes, computer freezes are more fun, that's
for sure.

Good luck on your purchase and test.

Paul

Paul

July 30th 15, 12:02 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> O.T. : This has nothing at all to do with the
> 8200 or 8500 but I thought since the thread is
> active I would ask you a quick question.
>
> I just bought a Yamaha CRX TS10 Stereo System
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=yamaha+crx+ts10&biw=1684&bih=939&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMIzK-2j9j3xgIViKWICh39QQHL
>
> but it didn't have a remote. So I bought that
> separately. While trying to find out a little
> more information about the unit and the year
> it was made I came across the fact that the
> remote uses a lithium battery which concerns me
> a great deal.
>
> http://www.manualslib.com/manual/352402/Yamaha-Tsx-20.html?page=13#manual
>
> I'm surprised Yamaha would use such a dangerous item
> with their product and actually state so in their manual
> instead of using safer AA or AAA batteries.
>
> I haven't received either yet but I'm not so sure I
> want to use the remote after reading the above.
>
> Do you know of an alternate universal remote?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert
>

That's a CR2025. A lithium coin cell.

It is non-rechargeable. It cannot blow up
because of recharging, because there is no
charger provided to charge it.

If you short the battery, it has a relatively
high internal impedance. I don't think the peak
power can be all that high.

An 18650 cell (one cell in a laptop battery pack),
holds 0.75 grams of Lithium. The CR2025 is around
0.06 grams of Lithium.

I think the risk is overstated for liability purposes.
The conditions needed to make the contents of the
battery dangerous, would already be dangerous to
you. If your dwelling caught file, you could die
from smoke inhalation, before a tiny puff of
organic chemical came out of the CR2025.

My guess would be, volatized electrolyte would be
more dangerous than the lithium component. And
by the time you get the remote hot enough to reduce
it to a puddle of molten plastic, things are
generally looking grim for you in that room.

I probably have twenty CR2032 cells in the
house here. Some dead ones in my "recycling container",
to be taken to hazardous waste when I have enough.
Some cells in computers. Every computer has a CR2032
in it, which is slightly bigger than a CR2025.
Your 8200 and your 8500 have (1) CR2032 each.
The CR2032 has the same amount of Lithium (0.06
to 0.07 grams) as the CR2025. So you've already
been exposed to this "extreme risk" for some time :-) :-)

Paul

Mark Twain

July 30th 15, 12:22 PM

So you've already > been exposed to this
"extreme risk" for some time :-) :-)
>
> Paul

AAAggggggHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! *LOL*

Oh well, then I guess its safe to have a cup
of coffee and cigarette too. *L*

I'll let you know when the HD arrives.

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain

July 31st 15, 12:46 PM

I decided to do the 160Gb backup
while waiting Macrium had an update
then it prompted me to create a
rescue disk which I started until I
came to this:

http://i61.tinypic.com/ad18nl.jpg

I tried looking for an update source
but couldn't find one.

Also, I can't remember, do I press
backup at the top(new to View)or do
I select 'create an image of partition
required to backup and restore Windows?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

August 1st 15, 12:32 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
>
> I decided to do the 160Gb backup
> while waiting Macrium had an update
> then it prompted me to create a
> rescue disk which I started until I
> came to this:
>
>
> http://i61.tinypic.com/ad18nl.jpg
>
> I tried looking for an update source
> but couldn't find one.
>
> Also, I can't remember, do I press
> backup at the top(new to View)or do
> I select 'create an image of partition
> required to backup and restore Windows?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

"Image selected disks" is what you want.

If the 160GB drive is to be replaced, then backing
up the whole thing would be nice.

*******

The option below it, to "backup and restore Windows",
is intended to identify C: and System Reserved partitions
only. That's the same approach that Windows Backup
in Windows 7 used.

In the case of the 8200 with WinXP on it, it should
only snapshot the one partition. It isn't a complete
disk backup, as partitions like PQService would
not get included.

*******

When going from the 160GB to the 320GB, you can
use the Macrium "clone" option. Perhaps that
si under "Other tasks" ? I'm not running Macrium 6
here at the moment, so don't have the menus in
front of me.

*******

When you make a rescue CD, it offers the opportunity
to include drivers for the specific machine you're
making the disc for. The 82801BA sounds like the
Southbridge in the 8200. The VIA USB tells me your
add-in USB card has a VIA chip on it. The Realtek
entry is the weird one. It looks like you added
a PCI NIC card to the 8200, instead of using some
motherboard NIC ? In any case, the drivers are
there so the restore operations can work.

In particular, if you include the correct NIC driver,
you may even be able to use File Sharing (restore
from over the network). Without the NIC driver
in place, the Macrium CD would be limited to using
the external drive in the USB enclosure.

The previous free version of Macrium did not
offer that level of detail. And so, I never had
file sharing working on Macrium 5 CD. I could not
get a disk image over the network, from another
computer, using the Macrium boot CD. I think if
you bought a copy of Macrium 5, it had the menu
you show in your picture.

Paul

Mark Twain

August 1st 15, 04:01 AM

The only cards I've added to the 8200 are
the video card and the PCI card with (4)
2.0 ports. I removed the dial-up modem card
and replaced it with a blank tab.

So your saying its OK to go creating the
Rescue disk ahead without updating Realtek
because as I said I couldn't find it?

Then, use 'Image Selected Disks' correct?

Thanks,
Robert

Paul

August 1st 15, 08:32 AM

Mark Twain wrote:
> The only cards I've added to the 8200 are
> the video card and the PCI card with (4)
> 2.0 ports. I removed the dial-up modem card
> and replaced it with a blank tab.
>
> So your saying its OK to go creating the
> Rescue disk ahead without updating Realtek
> because as I said I couldn't find it?
>
> Then, use 'Image Selected Disks' correct?
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

I would prefer to see some evidence that
Macrium has a driver for my NIC. (With the
8200, it could be a 3C905 kinda card.) Now, I
know you're equipped with external USB drive
capability, so it's not a big deal to get the
..mrimg close to the machine for a store. Having
a working NIC would be icing on the cake, but
not absolutely necessary. I don't think I've ever
had a working NIC on my Macrium CDs (two of them).

Putting a good NIC driver in there, is purely so
you can say to yourself the Macrium Boot CD will
be "fully functional".

Just make sure the Macrium Boot CD works well
enough for the job.

And to prove you can *restore* from the Macrium CD,
after you finish preparing the Macrium CD right now,
boot the Macrium CD and do the "Image Selected Disks"
from there. Just to prove that you really can access
whatever is going to store the .mrimg you are
preparing with it. If the Macrium CD finishes
the operation to your satisfaction, then repeating
the process and doing "restore" instead at a future
date, you can be fairly sure it will work.

I like to go into Disk Management and apply labels
to things. Sometimes, for NTFS partitions, it makes
it easier to tell the disks apart, when using Macrium.
If you haven't had a problem figuring out which is
which, you don't have to act on that suggestion.

Paul

Mark Twain

August 1st 15, 11:04 AM

I followed your instructions:

http://i60.tinypic.com/2ngcuph.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/m81xk0.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/30mrho9.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/33usbon.jpg

Now its set up for the 320GB HD and will let
you know when it arrives.

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain

August 1st 15, 11:23 AM

After changing the boot sequence back and
restarting the 8200 to make sure it took.
It 'seems' the 8200 is faster, more responsive
now.

Robert

Paul

August 1st 15, 12:58 PM

Mark Twain wrote:
> I followed your instructions:
>
> http://i60.tinypic.com/2ngcuph.jpg
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/m81xk0.jpg
>
> http://i62.tinypic.com/30mrho9.jpg
>
> http://i58.tinypic.com/33usbon.jpg
>
> Now its set up for the 320GB HD and will let
> you know when it arrives.
>
> Thanks,
> Robert

A couple of comments.

In the picture (33usbon.jpg), the destination filename
is set to D:\(IMAGEID)-00-00.mrimg.

That is basically the "tool default". The filename
that results is of the form.

FD9C634222529385-00-00.mrimg

I can tell by looking at the date of the file
(Aug1,2015) roughly when I made the backup. However,
if someday I mixed all the 8200 and 8500 backup files
together in a folder, I might have no other way to identify
them.

If instead, you define "Backup Filename" in the original
setup window (m81xk0.jpg), you can pick a name like
8200-C-Drive-Aug1-2015 and then the program will add
a few more digits to the end as it sees fit. This is
an example of one of my backup files. This gives me
some idea when and why.

win8P5E_before_defrag_July_2015-00-00.mrimg

A second option, is to use the Advanced Options button
at the bottom of the setup window. In there is defined a
"Comment Field". That allows you to add a lot more detail.
The "Comment Field" can only be reviewed on a machine
that has Macrium installed, but it does allow you to see
some comments about the backup you just made. It's my
"second favorite way" to label a backup. I use the
filename thing more often. And by using my filename thing,
I don't save the backup definition (.xml) file for a future
date. Each one of my backups is a one-shot thing, as each
one needs a custom filename.

*******

One other comment. The speed of your 8200 drive
is abysmally slow :-) Macrium rates backups in megabits
per second, and you must divide by 8 and use bytes,
to see it.

Transfer Rate: 106.4 Mbit/s ==> 106.4/8 = 13.3MB/sec

While the Macrium backup is not a contiguous transfer,
the head movement should be a linear progression of sorts,
so seek time between chunks should be minimal. I think my
best (for conventional storage) was around 100MB/sec or a bit
more. I also have a few bad drives, that go a lot slower.

One aspect that factors in, is the "compression" setting.
You left the compression at "Medium", the tool default.
I leave mine uncompressed and compress them later. The Macrium
compressor is pretty lightweight, something like an LZO
perhaps. It's not an arithmetic compressor like 7ZIP uses.
The compressor likely uses a lot of the CPU on the 8200,
but compressing the backup does save space. So perhaps
I'm being overly harsh on your 160GB hard drive, by
suggesting it is a slouch. It could be that the CPU is the
bottleneck, and the hard drive has it easy. You can
adjust these factors to suit your own needs (compression
or no compression if you're in a hurry).

When I compress files, I do them on my good machine. Your 8500
is such a machine. You could compress the files on the 8500 using
7ZIP if you wanted. Compression has pluses and minuses. In
a situation where a file is corrupted, compression causes error
multiplication. So if compression is involved, it makes it that
much harder to recover something. Now, you probably wouldn't
even attempt to recover the .mrimg file in any case, as the
format inside is "not useful". The stuff in there is not
like a TAR file - it's not necessarily sequential files all
neatly packed. And as a result, even without compression,
the .mrimg format would not be that pleasant to bolt back
together. So on the one hand, when Macrium makes the .mrimg
file, the disk drive heads are given a "smooth path" to
travel. The backup is very easy on the source drive. But
on the other hand, the clusters recorded can be in just
about any order as far as individual files are concerned.
Applying compression probably doesn't make the situation
all that much worse :-)

I've never had a .mrimg file corrupted, so like our
discussion about lithium coin cells, there isn't an
imminent risk here. You have plenty of latitude to
experiment with the settings, and find the best
space/time tradeoff for your own needs.

I like my backups to run fast (Macrium Compression: Off)
I like to compress things I know will be
on the disk for a couple years. I don't mind
moving my backup drive to the big machine,
which was bought just for strength while compressing (7ZIP).
On the other hand, if I need the file later, I have
to wait a while to decompress the 7ZIP file.

My good machine compresses the file seven times faster
than the machine I'm typing on. And that's why I got it.
The machine I type on, uses less electricity.

If I backup everything here, it takes the whole
day (24 hours) to compress the resulting .mrimg files.
Just to give you some idea how slow it is.

If you use the compression included inside Macrium,
that can be a bit slow on a slow computer. You would
not notice Macrium compression at all on the 8500, but
the 8200 just doesn't have the horsepower for that sort
of thing. The benefit of doing the compression of
backup data inside Macrium, is you don't have any additional
steps and there is nothing to worry about later. So that's
a benefit for sure. It's because I like to screw around
with stuff, that I do otherwise :-)

Paul