Enhanced Delete in TCC/LE delete after reboot, exclusion range

[micky[_2_]]

https://jpsoft.com/help/index.htm?overview.htm

DEL / ERASE command - Erase files or directories

Extended Delete Command, part of TCC/LE, from JPSoft,
a free cmd substitute.

Actually I posted because I was impressed by /B, delete after reboot.
And /I, match descriptions!
And file exclusion ranges.

Purpose: Erase one file, a group of files, or entire
subdirectories

Format: DEL [ranges] [/A:[[-|+]rhsadecijopt /E /F /I"text" /K /L
/N[defjnst] /O:[-]adegnrstu /P /Q /R /S[[+]n] /T /W[n] /X /Y /Z] [@file]
file...

file The file, subdirectory, or list of files or
subdirectories to erase.
@file A text file containing the names of the files to delete,
one per line (see @file lists for details).

/A: (Attribute select)
/P(rompt)
/B (Delete after reboot)
/Q(uiet)
/E (No error messages)
/R(ecycle bin)
/F(orce delete)
/S(ubdirectories)
/I (match descriptions)
/T(otal)
/K (no Recycle Bin)
/W(ipe)
/L (delete symlinks)
/X (remove empty subdirectories)
/N (Disable)
/Y(es to all prompts)
/O:... (Order)
/Z(ap hidden and read-only files)


File Selection

Supports command dialog, attribute switches, extended wildcards, ranges,
multiple file names, and include lists. Use wildcards with caution on
LFN volumes; see LFN File Searches for details.

Can be used with FTP/HTTP Servers.

Usage
DEL and ERASE are synonyms. You can use either one. In the description
below, every reference to DEL applies equally to ERASE. If you don't
specify any arguments, DEL will display its command dialog.

Use the DEL command with caution. The files and subdirectories that you
erase may be impossible to recover without specialized utilities and a
lot of work.

To erase a single file, simply enter the file name:

del letters.txt

You can also erase multiple files in a single command. For example, to
erase all the files in the current directory with a .BAK or .PRN
extension:

del *.bak *.prn

When you use DEL on an LFN drive, you must quote any file names which
contain white space or special characters.

To exclude files from a DEL command, use a file exclusion range. For
example, to delete all files in the current directory except those whose
extension is .TXT, use a command like this:

del /[!*.TXT] *

When using exclusion ranges or other more complex options you may want
to use the /N switch first, to preview the effects of the DEL without
actually deleting any files.

***
If you enter a subdirectory name, or a filename composed only of
wildcards (* and/or ?), DEL asks for confirmation (Y or N) unless you
specified the /Y option. If you respond with a Y, DEL will delete all
the files in that subdirectory (hidden, system, and read-only files are
only deleted if you use the /Z option). NOTE: The Windows command
processor, CMD, behaves the same way but does not ask for confirmation
if you use /Q to delete files quietly. If you want TCC to follow CMD's
approach and skip the confirmation prompt when /Q is used, set the
Prompt on Wildcard Deletes configuration option. Use caution if you
disable this option, as this will allow DEL /Q to delete an entire
directory without prompting for confirmation.

DEL displays the amount of disk space recovered, unless the /Q option is
used (see below). It does so by comparing the amount of free disk space
before and after the DEL command is executed. This amount may be
incorrect if you are using a deletion tracking system which stores
deleted files in a hidden directory, or if another program performs a
file operation while the DEL command is executing.

Remember that DEL removes file descriptions along with files. Most
deletion tracking systems will not be able to save or recover a file's
description, even if they can save or recover the data in a file. This
applies to the use of DEL with the Windows Recycle Bin, too - the
description will be lost.

When a file is deleted without using the Recycle Bin, its disk space is
returned to the operating system for use by other files. However, the
contents of the file remain on the disk until they are overwritten by
another file. If you wish to obliterate a file or wipe its contents
clean, use the /W option, which overwrites the file before deleting it.
Use this option with caution! Once a file is obliterated, it is
impossible to recover. Remember: /W overrides using the Recycle Bin.

DEL returns a non-zero exit code if no files are deleted, or if another
error occurs. You can test this exit code with the %_? internal
variable, and use it with conditional commands (&& and ||).

Use caution when using wildcards with DEL on LFN drives, because TCC's
wildcard matching can match both short and long filenames. This can
delete files you did not expect; see LFN File Searches for additional
details.

DEL sets three internal variables:
%_del_dirs The number of directories deleted
%_del_files The number of files deleted
%_del_errors The number of errors

• Recycle Bin
When you delete files with DEL, TCC does not move the deleted files to
the Windows Recycle Bin by default. You can change this default with the
Delete to Recycle Bin configuration option. If you have disabled the
recycle bin, you can override the setting and place deleted files in the
recycle bin with the /R option:

del /r letters.txt

If you have enabled Recycle Bin support, but want to override the
default setting on a one-time basis, and delete some files without
placing them in the recycle bin, use the /K option:

del /k letters.txt

You can also exclude files from the Recycle bin, even if Delete to
Recycle Bin is enabled, or if the command use the /R option, with the
RecycleExclude environment variable.

• FTP Usage
If you have appropriate permissions, you can delete files on FTP
servers. For example:
del ftp://ftp.abc.com/index
You can also use the IFTP command to start an FTP session on a server
and then use one of the following syntax examples:

del ftp:path/*.txt

del ftp:/path/*.txt

The first syntax will normally be interpreted by the server as relative
to the path you specified when you used the IFTP command to start the
FTP session. The second syntax, with a slash before the path name, is
interpreted as starting from the root.

• NTFS File Streams

DEL supports file streams on NTFS drives. You can delete an individual
stream by specifying the stream name, for example:

del streamfile:s1

If no stream name is specified the entire file is deleted, including all
streams.

See NTFS File Streams for additional details.

Options
/= Display the DEL command dialog to help you set the filename and
command line options. You cannot specify any other arguments on the
command line.

/A: Delete only those files that have the specified attribute(s)
set. See Attribute Switches for information on the attributes which can
follow /A:. Do not use /A: with @file lists. See @file lists for
details.

You can specify /A:= to display a dialog to help you set individual
attributes.

/B If DEL can't delete the file (for example, if access is denied)
it will schedule it to be deleted at the next reboot.

/E Suppress all non-fatal error messages, such as "File Not Found."
Fatal error messages, such as "Drive not ready," will still be
displayed. This option is most useful in batch files and aliases.

/F This option has the same effect as /Z (see below): it deletes
read-only, hidden, and system files as well as normal files.. It is
included for compatibility with CMD.

/I"text" Select filenames by matching text in their descriptions.
The text can include wildcards and extended wildcards. The search text
must be enclosed in double quotes, and must follow the /I immediately,
with no intervening spaces. You can select all filenames that have a
description with /I"[?]*", or all filenames that do not have a
description with /I"[]".

/K Physically delete files instead of sending them to the Windows
Recycle Bin.

/L Delete symlinks instead of their contents.

/N Do everything except actually delete the file(s). This is useful
for testing the result of a DEL.

A /N with one or more of the following arguments has an alternate
meaning:

d Skip hidden directories (when used with /S)
e Don't display errors
f Don't display the bytes freed in the summary
j Skip junctions (when used with /S)
n Don't update the file descriptions
s Don't display the summary
t Don't update the CD / CDD extended directory search database
(JPSTREE.IDX)

/O:... Sort the files before processing.

You may use any combination of the sorting options below. If multiple
options are used, the listing will be sorted with the first sort option
as the primary key, the next as the secondary key, and so on:

n Sort by filename and extension, unless e is explicitly included.
This is the default.
- Reverse the sort order for the next sort key
a Sort names and extensions in standard ASCII order, instead of
numerically when numeric substrings are included in the name or
extension.
d Sort by date and time (oldest first); also see /T:acw
e Sort by extension
g Group subdirectories first, then files
r Reverse the sort order for all options
s Sort by size
t Same as d
u Unsorted

/P Prompt the user to confirm each erasure. Your options at the
prompt are explained in detail under Page and File Prompts.

/Q Don't display filenames as they are deleted, or the number of
files deleted or bytes freed. If Prompt on Wildcard Deletes is disabled
then /Q also disables the normal confirmation prompt when performing
wildcard deletions (e.g. DEL *), for compatibility with CMD. Use caution
if you disable Prompt on Wildcard Deletes, as this will allow DEL /Q to
delete an entire directory without prompting for confirmation. See also
/T.

/R Delete files to the Windows Recycle Bin.

/S Delete the specified files in this directory and all of its
subdirectories. This is like a GLOBAL DEL, and can be used to delete all
the files in a subdirectory tree or even a whole disk. Do not use /S
with @file lists. See @file lists for details.

If you specify a number after the /S, DEL will limit the subdirectory
recursion to that number. For example, if you have a directory tree
"\a\b\c\d\e", /S2 will only affect the "a", "b", and "c" directories.

If you specify a + followed by a number after the /S, DEL will not
delete any files until it gets to that depth in the subdirectory tree.
For example, if you have a directory tree \a\b\c\d\e, /S+2 will not
delete anything in \a or \a\b.

/T Don't display filenames as they are deleted, but display the
total number of files deleted plus the amount of free disk space
recovered.

/W[n] Overwrite the file contents using the DoD 5220.22-M (E) standard
for secure deletion. (This overwrites every byte in the file with
different values). You can optionally specify the number of passes
(1-999); the default is 3. See also DelWipePasses. Use this option to
completely obliterate a file's contents from your disk. Once you have
used this option it is impossible to recover the file even if you are
using an undelete utility, because the contents of the file are
destroyed before it is deleted. /W will override a /R.

/X Removes empty subdirectories (only useful when used with /S). If
DEL deletes one or more directories, they will be removed automatically
from the extended directory search database. DEL will display the
directories being removed (with a trailing \).

/Y The reverse of /P . It assumes a Y response to everything,
including deleting an entire subdirectory tree. TCC normally prompts
before deleting files when the name consists only of wildcards or a
subdirectory name (see above); /Y overrides this protection and should
be used with extreme caution!

/Z Delete read-only, hidden, and system files as well as normal
files. Files with the read-only, hidden, or system attribute set are
normally protected from deletion; /Z overrides this protection, and
should be used with caution. Because EXCEPT works by hiding files, /Z
will override an EXCEPT command. However, files specified in a file
exclusion range will not be deleted by DEL /Z.

For example, to delete the entire subdirectory tree starting with
C:\UTIL, including hidden and read- only files, without prompting (use
this command with CAUTION!):

del /s /x /y /z c:\util\

[R.Wieser]

micky,

You (also) posted this in alt.msdos. DOS doesn't not offer a recycle bin,
nor does it have any delete-after-reboot options, and most likely it does
not have symlinks either. :-)

And another thing: You've got both an a /R(ecycle bin) as well as a /K (no
Recycle Bin) option. As I assume your program uses one as a default (I
don't think there are other options than those two), doesn't that make the
related choice superfluous ?

Besides, I get the feeling DOS would not be able to run the program itself
.....

Regards,
Rudy Wieser


-- Origional message:
micky > schreef in berichtnieuws
...
> https://jpsoft.com/help/index.htm?overview.htm
>
> DEL / ERASE command - Erase files or directories
>
> Extended Delete Command, part of TCC/LE, from JPSoft,
> a free cmd substitute.
>
> Actually I posted because I was impressed by /B, delete after reboot.
> And /I, match descriptions!
> And file exclusion ranges.
>
> Purpose: Erase one file, a group of files, or entire
> subdirectories
>
> Format: DEL [ranges] [/A:[[-|+]rhsadecijopt /E /F /I"text" /K /L
> /N[defjnst] /O:[-]adegnrstu /P /Q /R /S[[+]n] /T /W[n] /X /Y /Z] [@file]
> file...
>
> file The file, subdirectory, or list of files or
> subdirectories to erase.
> @file A text file containing the names of the files to delete,
> one per line (see @file lists for details).
>
> /A: (Attribute select)
> /P(rompt)
> /B (Delete after reboot)
> /Q(uiet)
> /E (No error messages)
> /R(ecycle bin)
> /F(orce delete)
> /S(ubdirectories)
> /I (match descriptions)
> /T(otal)
> /K (no Recycle Bin)
> /W(ipe)
> /L (delete symlinks)
> /X (remove empty subdirectories)
> /N (Disable)
> /Y(es to all prompts)
> /O:... (Order)
> /Z(ap hidden and read-only files)
>
>
> File Selection
>
> Supports command dialog, attribute switches, extended wildcards, ranges,
> multiple file names, and include lists. Use wildcards with caution on
> LFN volumes; see LFN File Searches for details.
>
> Can be used with FTP/HTTP Servers.
>
> Usage
> DEL and ERASE are synonyms. You can use either one. In the description
> below, every reference to DEL applies equally to ERASE. If you don't
> specify any arguments, DEL will display its command dialog.
>
> Use the DEL command with caution. The files and subdirectories that you
> erase may be impossible to recover without specialized utilities and a
> lot of work.
>
> To erase a single file, simply enter the file name:
>
> del letters.txt
>
> You can also erase multiple files in a single command. For example, to
> erase all the files in the current directory with a .BAK or .PRN
> extension:
>
> del *.bak *.prn
>
> When you use DEL on an LFN drive, you must quote any file names which
> contain white space or special characters.
>
> To exclude files from a DEL command, use a file exclusion range. For
> example, to delete all files in the current directory except those whose
> extension is .TXT, use a command like this:
>
> del /[!*.TXT] *
>
> When using exclusion ranges or other more complex options you may want
> to use the /N switch first, to preview the effects of the DEL without
> actually deleting any files.
>
> ***
> If you enter a subdirectory name, or a filename composed only of
> wildcards (* and/or ?), DEL asks for confirmation (Y or N) unless you
> specified the /Y option. If you respond with a Y, DEL will delete all
> the files in that subdirectory (hidden, system, and read-only files are
> only deleted if you use the /Z option). NOTE: The Windows command
> processor, CMD, behaves the same way but does not ask for confirmation
> if you use /Q to delete files quietly. If you want TCC to follow CMD's
> approach and skip the confirmation prompt when /Q is used, set the
> Prompt on Wildcard Deletes configuration option. Use caution if you
> disable this option, as this will allow DEL /Q to delete an entire
> directory without prompting for confirmation.
>
> DEL displays the amount of disk space recovered, unless the /Q option is
> used (see below). It does so by comparing the amount of free disk space
> before and after the DEL command is executed. This amount may be
> incorrect if you are using a deletion tracking system which stores
> deleted files in a hidden directory, or if another program performs a
> file operation while the DEL command is executing.
>
> Remember that DEL removes file descriptions along with files. Most
> deletion tracking systems will not be able to save or recover a file's
> description, even if they can save or recover the data in a file. This
> applies to the use of DEL with the Windows Recycle Bin, too - the
> description will be lost.
>
> When a file is deleted without using the Recycle Bin, its disk space is
> returned to the operating system for use by other files. However, the
> contents of the file remain on the disk until they are overwritten by
> another file. If you wish to obliterate a file or wipe its contents
> clean, use the /W option, which overwrites the file before deleting it.
> Use this option with caution! Once a file is obliterated, it is
> impossible to recover. Remember: /W overrides using the Recycle Bin.
>
> DEL returns a non-zero exit code if no files are deleted, or if another
> error occurs. You can test this exit code with the %_? internal
> variable, and use it with conditional commands (&& and ||).
>
> Use caution when using wildcards with DEL on LFN drives, because TCC's
> wildcard matching can match both short and long filenames. This can
> delete files you did not expect; see LFN File Searches for additional
> details.
>
> DEL sets three internal variables:
> %_del_dirs The number of directories deleted
> %_del_files The number of files deleted
> %_del_errors The number of errors
>
> . Recycle Bin
> When you delete files with DEL, TCC does not move the deleted files to
> the Windows Recycle Bin by default. You can change this default with the
> Delete to Recycle Bin configuration option. If you have disabled the
> recycle bin, you can override the setting and place deleted files in the
> recycle bin with the /R option:
>
> del /r letters.txt
>
> If you have enabled Recycle Bin support, but want to override the
> default setting on a one-time basis, and delete some files without
> placing them in the recycle bin, use the /K option:
>
> del /k letters.txt
>
> You can also exclude files from the Recycle bin, even if Delete to
> Recycle Bin is enabled, or if the command use the /R option, with the
> RecycleExclude environment variable.
>
> . FTP Usage
> If you have appropriate permissions, you can delete files on FTP
> servers. For example:
> del ftp://ftp.abc.com/index
> You can also use the IFTP command to start an FTP session on a server
> and then use one of the following syntax examples:
>
> del ftp:path/*.txt
>
> del ftp:/path/*.txt
>
> The first syntax will normally be interpreted by the server as relative
> to the path you specified when you used the IFTP command to start the
> FTP session. The second syntax, with a slash before the path name, is
> interpreted as starting from the root.
>
> . NTFS File Streams
>
> DEL supports file streams on NTFS drives. You can delete an individual
> stream by specifying the stream name, for example:
>
> del streamfile:s1
>
> If no stream name is specified the entire file is deleted, including all
> streams.
>
> See NTFS File Streams for additional details.
>
> Options
> /= Display the DEL command dialog to help you set the filename and
> command line options. You cannot specify any other arguments on the
> command line.
>
> /A: Delete only those files that have the specified attribute(s)
> set. See Attribute Switches for information on the attributes which can
> follow /A:. Do not use /A: with @file lists. See @file lists for
> details.
>
> You can specify /A:= to display a dialog to help you set individual
> attributes.
>
> /B If DEL can't delete the file (for example, if access is denied)
> it will schedule it to be deleted at the next reboot.
>
> /E Suppress all non-fatal error messages, such as "File Not Found."
> Fatal error messages, such as "Drive not ready," will still be
> displayed. This option is most useful in batch files and aliases.
>
> /F This option has the same effect as /Z (see below): it deletes
> read-only, hidden, and system files as well as normal files.. It is
> included for compatibility with CMD.
>
> /I"text" Select filenames by matching text in their descriptions.
> The text can include wildcards and extended wildcards. The search text
> must be enclosed in double quotes, and must follow the /I immediately,
> with no intervening spaces. You can select all filenames that have a
> description with /I"[?]*", or all filenames that do not have a
> description with /I"[]".
>
> /K Physically delete files instead of sending them to the Windows
> Recycle Bin.
>
> /L Delete symlinks instead of their contents.
>
> /N Do everything except actually delete the file(s). This is useful
> for testing the result of a DEL.
>
> A /N with one or more of the following arguments has an alternate
> meaning:
>
> d Skip hidden directories (when used with /S)
> e Don't display errors
> f Don't display the bytes freed in the summary
> j Skip junctions (when used with /S)
> n Don't update the file descriptions
> s Don't display the summary
> t Don't update the CD / CDD extended directory search database
> (JPSTREE.IDX)
>
> /O:... Sort the files before processing.
>
> You may use any combination of the sorting options below. If multiple
> options are used, the listing will be sorted with the first sort option
> as the primary key, the next as the secondary key, and so on:
>
> n Sort by filename and extension, unless e is explicitly included.
> This is the default.
> - Reverse the sort order for the next sort key
> a Sort names and extensions in standard ASCII order, instead of
> numerically when numeric substrings are included in the name or
> extension.
> d Sort by date and time (oldest first); also see /T:acw
> e Sort by extension
> g Group subdirectories first, then files
> r Reverse the sort order for all options
> s Sort by size
> t Same as d
> u Unsorted
>
> /P Prompt the user to confirm each erasure. Your options at the
> prompt are explained in detail under Page and File Prompts.
>
> /Q Don't display filenames as they are deleted, or the number of
> files deleted or bytes freed. If Prompt on Wildcard Deletes is disabled
> then /Q also disables the normal confirmation prompt when performing
> wildcard deletions (e.g. DEL *), for compatibility with CMD. Use caution
> if you disable Prompt on Wildcard Deletes, as this will allow DEL /Q to
> delete an entire directory without prompting for confirmation. See also
> /T.
>
> /R Delete files to the Windows Recycle Bin.
>
> /S Delete the specified files in this directory and all of its
> subdirectories. This is like a GLOBAL DEL, and can be used to delete all
> the files in a subdirectory tree or even a whole disk. Do not use /S
> with @file lists. See @file lists for details.
>
> If you specify a number after the /S, DEL will limit the subdirectory
> recursion to that number. For example, if you have a directory tree
> "\a\b\c\d\e", /S2 will only affect the "a", "b", and "c" directories.
>
> If you specify a + followed by a number after the /S, DEL will not
> delete any files until it gets to that depth in the subdirectory tree.
> For example, if you have a directory tree \a\b\c\d\e, /S+2 will not
> delete anything in \a or \a\b.
>
> /T Don't display filenames as they are deleted, but display the
> total number of files deleted plus the amount of free disk space
> recovered.
>
> /W[n] Overwrite the file contents using the DoD 5220.22-M (E) standard
> for secure deletion. (This overwrites every byte in the file with
> different values). You can optionally specify the number of passes
> (1-999); the default is 3. See also DelWipePasses. Use this option to
> completely obliterate a file's contents from your disk. Once you have
> used this option it is impossible to recover the file even if you are
> using an undelete utility, because the contents of the file are
> destroyed before it is deleted. /W will override a /R.
>
> /X Removes empty subdirectories (only useful when used with /S). If
> DEL deletes one or more directories, they will be removed automatically
> from the extended directory search database. DEL will display the
> directories being removed (with a trailing \).
>
> /Y The reverse of /P . It assumes a Y response to everything,
> including deleting an entire subdirectory tree. TCC normally prompts
> before deleting files when the name consists only of wildcards or a
> subdirectory name (see above); /Y overrides this protection and should
> be used with extreme caution!
>
> /Z Delete read-only, hidden, and system files as well as normal
> files. Files with the read-only, hidden, or system attribute set are
> normally protected from deletion; /Z overrides this protection, and
> should be used with caution. Because EXCEPT works by hiding files, /Z
> will override an EXCEPT command. However, files specified in a file
> exclusion range will not be deleted by DEL /Z.
>
> For example, to delete the entire subdirectory tree starting with
> C:\UTIL, including hidden and read- only files, without prompting (use
> this command with CAUTION!):
>
> del /s /x /y /z c:\util\

[DMcCunney]

On 8/10/2015 11:55 AM, R.Wieser wrote:
> micky,
>
> You (also) posted this in alt.msdos. DOS doesn't not offer a recycle bin,
> nor does it have any delete-after-reboot options, and most likely it does
> not have symlinks either. :-)

It does not. Under DOS, file links were a problem CHKDSK would attempt
to fix for you.

Windows doesn't have symlinks out of the box either. (Shortcuts are
pale substitutes.) NTFS5 supports both hard links and symlinks, but the
functionality is not exposed out of the box. You need an advanced
utility package from MS or a third party product. I use William
Schinagl's freeware Link Shell Extension.

> Besides, I get the feeling DOS would not be able to run the program itself

Correct. TCC has roots in a program that *does* run under DOS. TCC
author Rex Conn wrote the popular shareware 4DOS COMMAND.COM
replacement. 4DOS added command line recall and editing, command
history, command aliases, a full screen file lister, a vastly enhanced
batch language, and an assortment of other things. (One version got
licensed for inclusion in a version of the Norton Utilities as NDOS.)

As DOS went away, Rex produced 4NT for WinNT, and that became Take
Command (TCC). Full Take Command is a GUI application. TCC-LE runs in
a console window. Rex made the 16bit DOS version of 4DOS open source,
and an updated version for other hands is available.

Old 4DOS users like me who work at a command line in Windows grabbed
TCC-LE with both hands.

> Regards,
> Rudy Wieser
______
Dennis

[micky[_2_]]

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Mon, 10 Aug 2015 17:55:37
+0200, "R.Wieser" > wrote:

>micky,
>
>You (also) posted this in alt.msdos. DOS doesn't not offer a recycle bin,
>nor does it have any delete-after-reboot options, and most likely it does
>not have symlinks either. :-)

Probably not. Users of native dos will not be able to take advantage
of options that don't make sense in native dos. But like other dos
commands, TCC/LE and its commands have many extra features they *can*
take advantage of.

Still, I would expect that the majority of users of command language
are, and maybe also the majority of time spent using it are by, users of
Windows running cmd in a DOS box (with or without the box). Instead of
running CMD, they can run TCC/LE and have several times the options they
have now. Using the delete command and other commands too, plus 15
times as many internal variables, DO loops, and IF/THEN/ELSE logic, in
..bat files.
>
>And another thing: You've got both an a /R(ecycle bin) as well as a /K (no
>Recycle Bin) option. As I assume your program uses one as a default (I
>don't think there are other options than those two), doesn't that make the
>related choice superfluous ?

No. /K is there to override a default of Use Recycle Bin, and /R is
there to override a default of Don't Use Recycle Bin, and both are there
to make a command that will work the same no matter what the prior
setting or default is.
>
>Besides, I get the feeling DOS would not be able to run the program itself

I don't know what program you mean. One doesn't run TCC/LE under DOS,
but in place of DOS.

I set my computer up to run whichever I choose. When I'm suspicious
that TCC isn't doing what CMD would do, I can try the same thing in CMD,
though I don't recall that ever really helping.

TCC/LE works for winXP, 7,8,8.1, and I believe I saw that it works for
10 too. If it weren't free, I would pay for it.

The related program(s) like Take Command, that JPSoft sells I'm sure
are worth the money for those they say "Developers, Ops, Support, Power
Users ".

>....
>
>Regards,
>Rudy Wieser
>
>micky > schreef in berichtnieuws
>> https://jpsoft.com/help/index.htm?overview.htm
>>
>> DEL / ERASE command - Erase files or directories
>>
>> Extended Delete Command, part of TCC/LE, from JPSoft,
>> a free cmd substitute.

[DMcCunney]

On 8/10/2015 8:55 PM, micky wrote:
> In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Mon, 10 Aug 2015 17:55:37
> +0200, "R.Wieser" > wrote:
>
>> micky,
>>
>> You (also) posted this in alt.msdos. DOS doesn't not offer a recycle bin,
>> nor does it have any delete-after-reboot options, and most likely it does
>> not have symlinks either. :-)
>
> Probably not. Users of native dos will not be able to take advantage
> of options that don't make sense in native dos. But like other dos
> commands, TCC/LE and its commands have many extra features they *can*
> take advantage of.

Certainly not. And users of native DOS won't be able to run TCC-LE in
any case. It's a Windows program.

If what you run is native DOS, use TCC-LE's predecessor, 4DOS.

> Still, I would expect that the majority of users of command language
> are, and maybe also the majority of time spent using it are by, users of
> Windows running cmd in a DOS box (with or without the box). Instead of
> running CMD, they can run TCC/LE and have several times the options they
> have now. Using the delete command and other commands too, plus 15
> times as many internal variables, DO loops, and IF/THEN/ELSE logic, in
> .bat files.

Properly speaking, it's not a DOS box, it's a console window.

If you run Win2K or XP, you *can* run DOS apps. Those flavors implement
the NTVDM subsystem, which provides a version of COMMAND.COM and a DOS
environment configured by \Windows\system32\autoexec.nt and config.nt.
(Note that if you run a DOS app that way and shell out of it, the
subshell is a 32 bit Windows environment and you are talking to CMD.EXE,
not COMMAND.COM.)

Win Vista/7/8/10 removed the ability to run 16 bit applications. You
must either run a VM or run something like the open source DOSBox
program, intended to let people play old DOS games. (I use a fork of
DOSBox called vDOS, which runs under XP/Vista/7/8/10 and is intended for
character mode DOS programs. Gaming support has been removed.)

> I don't know what program you mean. One doesn't run TCC/LE under DOS,
> but in place of DOS.

No, one runs TCC-LE to get more features in a console window than are
provided by CMD.EXE. DOS is irrelevant. CMD provided some enhancements
to ordinary DOS batch. TCC-LE provides more.

An alternative is C-link, which uses a Win32 port of the Gnu readline
library to provide bash style command history and editing and aliases in
CMD.

> I set my computer up to run whichever I choose. When I'm suspicious
> that TCC isn't doing what CMD would do, I can try the same thing in CMD,
> though I don't recall that ever really helping.

IIRC, there is a compatibility mode to force strict compliance with what
CMD would do. I've never needed to use it. (Rex commented back in the
4DOS days about the requirement to reproduce COMMAND.COM *bugs* as well
as features, as some people relied on things that were arguably bugs and
4DOS had to reproduce the behavior. When a 4DOS user would ask for
something COMMAND.COM did that wasn't in 4DOS, Rex would ask "Do you
want it to work as it's *documented* to work , or how it actually behaves?"

> TCC/LE works for winXP, 7,8,8.1, and I believe I saw that it works for
> 10 too.

It does.

> If it weren't free, I would pay for it.

You *can* pay for Take Command...

> The related program(s) like Take Command, that JPSoft sells I'm sure
> are worth the money for those they say "Developers, Ops, Support, Power
> Users ".

Think of Take Command as a GUI version of TCC-LE. It does have more
features, including a tabbed interface. There's a comparison on
JPSoft's website.
______
Dennis

[JJ[_11_]]

On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 08:02:29 -0400, micky wrote:
> DEL / ERASE command - Erase files or directories
>
> Extended Delete Command, part of TCC/LE, from JPSoft,
> a free cmd substitute.
>
> Actually I posted because I was impressed by /B, delete after reboot.

This is like SysInternals' movefile. It's not actually delete after reboot,
but delete on system start. It's realy part of Windows built in features,
not TC/TCC/4NT specific.

> And /I, match descriptions!
> And file exclusion ranges.

Some of the things why I use 4DOS and 4NT.

[micky[_2_]]

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 11 Aug 2015 19:55:59
+0700, JJ > wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 08:02:29 -0400, micky wrote:
>> DEL / ERASE command - Erase files or directories
>>
>> Extended Delete Command, part of TCC/LE, from JPSoft,
>> a free cmd substitute.
>>
>> Actually I posted because I was impressed by /B, delete after reboot.
>
>This is like SysInternals' movefile. It's not actually delete after reboot,
>but delete on system start.

Maybe they couldn't say that because they've already used /S for
subdirectories!

> It's realy part of Windows built in features,
>not TC/TCC/4NT specific.

Yeah, I knew that, but it's the first program I've found that takes
advantage of hte windows capability. I have dowloaded and maybe
installed sysinternals, but I don't know much of what it does.
>
>> And /I, match descriptions!
>> And file exclusion ranges.
>
>Some of the things why I use 4DOS and 4NT.

I used to use NDOS and 4DOS.

[DMcCunney]

On 8/11/2015 9:25 AM, micky wrote:
> In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 11 Aug 2015 19:55:59
> +0700, JJ > wrote:

>> It's realy part of Windows built in features,
>> not TC/TCC/4NT specific.
>
> Yeah, I knew that, but it's the first program I've found that takes
> advantage of hte windows capability. I have dowloaded and maybe
> installed sysinternals, but I don't know much of what it does.

Sysinternals includes lots of things. Developer Mark Russinovich is a
noted expert and writer on Windows programming. I got the impression he
know more about NT internals than MS. MS decided he knew something,
bought his company, and put he and his partner Bryce Cogswell to work in
their Core Architecture division.

The pick of the Sysinternals litter is likely Process Explorer, which is
Task Manager on steroids, and can be set to replace it.
______
Dennis

[Paul Bartlett]

On Tue, 11 Aug 2015, DMcCunney wrote (excerpt):

> Win Vista/7/8/10 removed the ability to run 16 bit applications. You must
> either run a VM or run something like the open source DOSBox program,
> intended to let people play old DOS games. (I use a fork of DOSBox called
> vDOS, which runs under XP/Vista/7/8/10 and is intended for character mode DOS
> programs. Gaming support has been removed.)

Not entirely correct. I use Windows 7 Pro SP1 32-bit, and I have no
problem whatever running some 16-bit character-mode programs in a CMD
window. I personally wrote those programs and compiled them with
QuickBasic 4.5 under MS-DOS version 5! They run perfectly well under
Win/32 7. To the best of my information, it is 64-bit Windows that
will not run 16-bit programs.

--
Paul Bartlett

[Nil[_5_]]

On 11 Aug 2015, micky > wrote in
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:

> I used to use NDOS and 4DOS.

I've still got my 4DOS install floppy and spiral-bound manual - I ran
across them in a box of old software a couple of weeks ago. I bet it's
worth big bucks now, being "vintage" and all... Antiques Roadshow, here
I come!

[Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]]

On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:40:22 -0400, Nil
> wrote:

> On 11 Aug 2015, micky > wrote in
> microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:
>
> > I used to use NDOS and 4DOS.
>
> I've still got my 4DOS install floppy and spiral-bound manual - I ran
> across them in a box of old software a couple of weeks ago. I bet it's
> worth big bucks now, being "vintage" and all... Antiques Roadshow, here
> I come!


I no longer have mine, but I also used to use it. I once wrote a batch
file of about 4,000 lines with it.

But it must be about 25 years since I last used it.

[DMcCunney]

On 8/11/2015 1:58 PM, Paul Bartlett wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Aug 2015, DMcCunney wrote (excerpt):
>
>> Win Vista/7/8/10 removed the ability to run 16 bit applications. You
>> must either run a VM or run something like the open source DOSBox
>> program, intended to let people play old DOS games. (I use a fork of
>> DOSBox called vDOS, which runs under XP/Vista/7/8/10 and is intended
>> for character mode DOS programs. Gaming support has been removed.)
>
> Not entirely correct. I use Windows 7 Pro SP1 32-bit, and I have no
> problem whatever running some 16-bit character-mode programs in a CMD
> window. I personally wrote those programs and compiled them with
> QuickBasic 4.5 under MS-DOS version 5! They run perfectly well under
> Win/32 7. To the best of my information, it is 64-bit Windows that
> will not run 16-bit programs.

Correct, and I should have been more specific. 32 bit Windows still
runs 16 bit applications. 64 bit Windows removed 16 bit support, and
you must run a VM of some sort to provide it.

But it's increasingly hard to *get* a 32 bit machine. Newer machines
are 64 bit. If you are still running legacy HW, you can still get 32
bit Windows (including Win10), but I suspect that's a shrinking part of
the market.
______
Dennis

[micky[_2_]]

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:40:22
-0400, Nil > wrote:

>On 11 Aug 2015, micky > wrote in
>microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:
>
>> I used to use NDOS and 4DOS.
>
>I've still got my 4DOS install floppy and spiral-bound manual - I ran
>across them in a box of old software a couple of weeks ago. I bet it's
>worth big bucks now, being "vintage" and all... Antiques Roadshow, here
>I come!

I've got about 30 volumes of ... I forget the name but they printed
schematics and notes about radios, before Howard Sams did. So I have
30 volumes, with heavy black cover with gold lightning bolts on it, and
I was finally going to donate them, and I found out that they're all on
CD now for about 20 dollars for the whole set.

[micky[_2_]]

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 11 Aug 2015 12:45:25
-0700, "Ken Blake, MVP" > wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:40:22 -0400, Nil
> wrote:
>
>> On 11 Aug 2015, micky > wrote in
>> microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:
>>
>> > I used to use NDOS and 4DOS.
>>
>> I've still got my 4DOS install floppy and spiral-bound manual - I ran
>> across them in a box of old software a couple of weeks ago. I bet it's
>> worth big bucks now, being "vintage" and all... Antiques Roadshow, here
>> I come!
>
>
>I no longer have mine, but I also used to use it. I once wrote a batch
>file of about 4,000 lines with it.
>
>But it must be about 25 years since I last used it.

If you didn't adquately provide for termination, it might still be
running somewhere.

[choro]

On 11/08/2015 19:40, Nil wrote:
> On 11 Aug 2015, micky > wrote in
> microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:
>
>> I used to use NDOS and 4DOS.
>
> I've still got my 4DOS install floppy and spiral-bound manual - I ran
> across them in a box of old software a couple of weeks ago. I bet it's
> worth big bucks now, being "vintage" and all... Antiques Roadshow, here
> I come!

IF and that's a big IF those floppies still work!
--
choro
*****
Politics is the art of dealing with the repercussions
of yesteryear's policies.-- Quoted from choro's sayings.

[Nil[_5_]]

On 11 Aug 2015, choro > wrote in
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:

> IF and that's a big IF those floppies still work!

True, dat. I've got a big box of floppies in the back of the closet. A
few years ago I went through maybe half of the box, and maybe half of
those couldn't be read. The ones that could be read and that I thought
might have something of value on them I transferred to CD-R. I probably
needn't have bothered. I should probably go ahead and toss out the
whole box of floppies.

1.44 MB seemed like quite a lot or room at one time!

[Bill in Co]

micky wrote:
> In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:40:22
> -0400, Nil > wrote:
>
>> On 11 Aug 2015, micky > wrote in
>> microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:
>>
>>> I used to use NDOS and 4DOS.
>>
>> I've still got my 4DOS install floppy and spiral-bound manual - I ran
>> across them in a box of old software a couple of weeks ago. I bet it's
>> worth big bucks now, being "vintage" and all... Antiques Roadshow, here
>> I come!
>
> I've got about 30 volumes of ... I forget the name but they printed
> schematics and notes about radios, before Howard Sams did. So I have
> 30 volumes, with heavy black cover with gold lightning bolts on it, and
> I was finally going to donate them, and I found out that they're all on
> CD now for about 20 dollars for the whole set.

The trouble with the Howard Sams stuff was to get the one you wanted, you
paid for - and got - several others which you typically had no use for.

I assume Howard Sams has gone the way of the Do Do bird by now. (?)

Wonder what series you are thinking of (pre-Sams)? Maybe somebody else
remembers.

Related to the original topic, I still find that del *and* deltree do most
of what I need, but all those extra switches in TCC look nice for those who
need those extra features.

[micky[_2_]]

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 11 Aug 2015 18:47:55
-0600, "Bill in Co" > wrote:

>micky wrote:
.....
>> I've got about 30 volumes of ... I forget the name but they printed
>> schematics and notes about radios, before Howard Sams did. So I have
>> 30 volumes, with heavy black cover with gold lightning bolts on it, and
>> I was finally going to donate them, and I found out that they're all on
>> CD now for about 20 dollars for the whole set.
>
>The trouble with the Howard Sams stuff was to get the one you wanted, you
>paid for - and got - several others which you typically had no use for.
>
>I assume Howard Sams has gone the way of the Do Do bird by now. (?)

FWIW, I went to high school with his daughter
>
>Wonder what series you are thinking of (pre-Sams)? Maybe somebody else
>remembers.

Here it is, Rider's
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RIDERS-BEITMANS-VINTAGE-ANTIQUE-TUBE-RADIO-SCHEMATICS-/130390931539
This claims that 23 volumes is the whole set, only $9.

I thought i had that many at least and could see holes in the set.

When I first got the books, which I found waiting for trash pickup on
Vanderbilt Avenue in Broolyn, outside a public? trade school, I looked
up the 3 or 4 radios I had from the period and found 2 or 3 of them.
Copy machines were rare then but I coudl have put a book mark in each
book and made a list of each book and page. Had I don't that, I could
have copied or even removed the page and given the books away decades
ago, But I didn't. And now they are of almost no value. IIRC, even
the radio museum here didn't want them. (though they did want my old
receiving tubes.)

It's almost easier to buy this CD than go through the books again, not
that I'm any better at radio repair than I was.

>Related to the original topic, I still find that del *and* deltree do most
>of what I need, but all those extra switches in TCC look nice for those who
>need those extra features.
>
It's not just del. You get the whole package, and if you act now, I'll
throw in a set of 3 ginzu knives. Look how they cut this tomato.

I find one of the best features to be List, which will display any file
no matter how long, in hex or not. In fact it has more than 10 internal
commands. And if you go list *.* you can switch to the next file with
the escape key and zoom through directories looking at everything
quickly. When I had files, executables, which no longer had the first
letter of their names, I found that about half of them had the file name
inside the file. Plus you get a handy carrying case, made of real faux
pleather.

[DMcCunney]

On 8/11/2015 8:47 PM, Bill in Co wrote:

> I assume Howard Sams has gone the way of the Do Do bird by now. (?)

Still around, but renamed Sams Technical Publishing.

See https://www.samswebsite.com/
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

On 8/11/2015 8:23 PM, Nil wrote:
> On 11 Aug 2015, choro > wrote in
> microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:
>
>> IF and that's a big IF those floppies still work!
>
> True, dat. I've got a big box of floppies in the back of the closet. A
> few years ago I went through maybe half of the box, and maybe half of
> those couldn't be read. The ones that could be read and that I thought
> might have something of value on them I transferred to CD-R. I probably
> needn't have bothered. I should probably go ahead and toss out the
> whole box of floppies.

Back in the day, there were lengthy discussions about what brand to buy
if you wanted to put the floppies on a shelf and still read them in five
years. Dysan was the gold standard.

> 1.44 MB seemed like quite a lot or room at one time!

In the MSDOS days, it was. There was also a freeware utility that would
format floppies to even higher capacity, though you couldn't read them
without that utility.

I've still got a number of 3.5" and 5.25" floppies. I even have a combo
half height floppy drive that reads both types. Alas, the last time I
had to change motherboards in the machine it's in, it broke it.
Previously, the two drives were seen as A: and B:, with a jumper you set
on the drive to determine which was seen as which. With the new
motherboard, only A: was seen, and I'd have to pull the drive and reset
the jumper depending on which kind of floppy I wanted to read.
______
Dennis

[Bill in Co]

DMcCunney wrote:
> On 8/11/2015 8:23 PM, Nil wrote:
>> On 11 Aug 2015, choro > wrote in
>> microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:
>>
>>> IF and that's a big IF those floppies still work!
>>
>> True, dat. I've got a big box of floppies in the back of the closet. A
>> few years ago I went through maybe half of the box, and maybe half of
>> those couldn't be read. The ones that could be read and that I thought
>> might have something of value on them I transferred to CD-R. I probably
>> needn't have bothered. I should probably go ahead and toss out the
>> whole box of floppies.
>
> Back in the day, there were lengthy discussions about what brand to buy
> if you wanted to put the floppies on a shelf and still read them in five
> years. Dysan was the gold standard.
>
>> 1.44 MB seemed like quite a lot or room at one time!
>
> In the MSDOS days, it was. There was also a freeware utility that would
> format floppies to even higher capacity, though you couldn't read them
> without that utility.
>
> I've still got a number of 3.5" and 5.25" floppies. I even have a combo
> half height floppy drive that reads both types. Alas, the last time I
> had to change motherboards in the machine it's in, it broke it.
> Previously, the two drives were seen as A: and B:, with a jumper you set
> on the drive to determine which was seen as which. With the new
> motherboard, only A: was seen, and I'd have to pull the drive and reset
> the jumper depending on which kind of floppy I wanted to read.
> ______
> Dennis

I've still got a 3.5" drive on this Dell XP computer. And it's come in
handy on a few occasions, too!

I seem to remember the original IBM PC's coming with two 360KB, 5.25"
drives. (It might have been 180 KB even before that, but I can't recall
now).

Remember when we thought 256K of RAM was "bountiful"? I think the original
IBM PC started out with 64K, but again, my memory may be off.

And I got rid of my VIC-20, with "6583 bytes free", a long time ago. :-)

[Bill in Co]

Ooops, make that 3583 bytes free below. Sorry, my bad.

Bill in Co wrote:
> DMcCunney wrote:
>> On 8/11/2015 8:23 PM, Nil wrote:
>>> On 11 Aug 2015, choro > wrote in
>>> microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:
>>>
>>>> IF and that's a big IF those floppies still work!
>>>
>>> True, dat. I've got a big box of floppies in the back of the closet. A
>>> few years ago I went through maybe half of the box, and maybe half of
>>> those couldn't be read. The ones that could be read and that I thought
>>> might have something of value on them I transferred to CD-R. I probably
>>> needn't have bothered. I should probably go ahead and toss out the
>>> whole box of floppies.
>>
>> Back in the day, there were lengthy discussions about what brand to buy
>> if you wanted to put the floppies on a shelf and still read them in five
>> years. Dysan was the gold standard.
>>
>>> 1.44 MB seemed like quite a lot or room at one time!
>>
>> In the MSDOS days, it was. There was also a freeware utility that would
>> format floppies to even higher capacity, though you couldn't read them
>> without that utility.
>>
>> I've still got a number of 3.5" and 5.25" floppies. I even have a combo
>> half height floppy drive that reads both types. Alas, the last time I
>> had to change motherboards in the machine it's in, it broke it.
>> Previously, the two drives were seen as A: and B:, with a jumper you set
>> on the drive to determine which was seen as which. With the new
>> motherboard, only A: was seen, and I'd have to pull the drive and reset
>> the jumper depending on which kind of floppy I wanted to read.
>> ______
>> Dennis
>
> I've still got a 3.5" drive on this Dell XP computer. And it's come in
> handy on a few occasions, too!
>
> I seem to remember the original IBM PC's coming with two 360KB, 5.25"
> drives. (It might have been 180 KB even before that, but I can't recall
> now).
>
> Remember when we thought 256K of RAM was "bountiful"? I think the
> original IBM PC started out with 64K, but again, my memory may be off.
>
> And I got rid of my VIC-20, with "3583 bytes free", a long time ago. :-)

[JJ[_11_]]

On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 20:23:01 -0400, Nil wrote:
>
> 1.44 MB seemed like quite a lot or room at one time!

Until Win95 came...

[DMcCunney]

On 8/12/2015 12:12 AM, Bill in Co wrote:
> DMcCunney wrote:

>> I've still got a number of 3.5" and 5.25" floppies. I even have a combo
>> half height floppy drive that reads both types. Alas, the last time I
>> had to change motherboards in the machine it's in, it broke it.
>> Previously, the two drives were seen as A: and B:, with a jumper you set
>> on the drive to determine which was seen as which. With the new
>> motherboard, only A: was seen, and I'd have to pull the drive and reset
>> the jumper depending on which kind of floppy I wanted to read.
>
> I've still got a 3.5" drive on this Dell XP computer. And it's come in
> handy on a few occasions, too!

The current box doesn't have a floppy drive, but I have a USB 3.5"
floppy drive I can plug in if needed. I seldom use it, but it's nice to
have.

> I seem to remember the original IBM PC's coming with two 360KB, 5.25"
> drives. (It might have been 180 KB even before that, but I can't recall
> now).

They did. And 256KB RAM. (Lotus 1,2,3 pretty much forced everyone to
upgrade to a full 640KB to accommodate the huge spreadsheets people were
creating.

IIRC, MSDOS 1.X uses 180K floppies. 2.X introduced double sided
floppies with 180K per side.

> Remember when we thought 256K of RAM was "bountiful"? I think the original
> IBM PC started out with 64K, but again, my memory may be off.

256KB, I think. The older 8 bit CP/M machines maxxed out at 64K,
because that was the address space limit on the CPUs. RAM was expensive
back when.

My old XT clone had 640K on the motherboard, and an AST 6-Pak card with
a meg of EMS RAM. 512K got allocated as a ramdisk, and 256K as cache,
with 256K available for apps that could use EMS. I found a freeware
utility that could map unused video RAM to DOS. I used a Hercules video
card, so there was 64K available for remapping. DOS thought I had a
704K system.

> And I got rid of my VIC-20, with "6583 bytes free", a long time ago. :-)

Never had a VIC-20. I *did* log time on C-64s. There were some neat
features
hobbled by design to cost, like the snail slow interface on the 1541 floppy.
______
Dennis

[Bill in Co]

DMcCunney wrote:
> On 8/12/2015 12:12 AM, Bill in Co wrote:
>> DMcCunney wrote:
>
>>> I've still got a number of 3.5" and 5.25" floppies. I even have a combo
>>> half height floppy drive that reads both types. Alas, the last time I
>>> had to change motherboards in the machine it's in, it broke it.
>>> Previously, the two drives were seen as A: and B:, with a jumper you set
>>> on the drive to determine which was seen as which. With the new
>>> motherboard, only A: was seen, and I'd have to pull the drive and reset
>>> the jumper depending on which kind of floppy I wanted to read.
>>
>> I've still got a 3.5" drive on this Dell XP computer. And it's come in
>> handy on a few occasions, too!
>
> The current box doesn't have a floppy drive, but I have a USB 3.5"
> floppy drive I can plug in if needed. I seldom use it, but it's nice to
> have.
>
>> I seem to remember the original IBM PC's coming with two 360KB, 5.25"
>> drives. (It might have been 180 KB even before that, but I can't recall
>> now).
>
> They did. And 256KB RAM. (Lotus 1,2,3 pretty much forced everyone to
> upgrade to a full 640KB to accommodate the huge spreadsheets people were
> creating.
>
> IIRC, MSDOS 1.X uses 180K floppies. 2.X introduced double sided
> floppies with 180K per side.
>
>> Remember when we thought 256K of RAM was "bountiful"? I think the
>> original
>> IBM PC started out with 64K, but again, my memory may be off.
>
> 256KB, I think. The older 8 bit CP/M machines maxxed out at 64K,
> because that was the address space limit on the CPUs. RAM was expensive
> back when.

The IBM-PC started with 256K of RAM?? not 128K, or 64K? OK, I must be
misrembering then (thinking of the first ones)

> My old XT clone had 640K on the motherboard, and an AST 6-Pak card with
> a meg of EMS RAM. 512K got allocated as a ramdisk, and 256K as cache,
> with 256K available for apps that could use EMS. I found a freeware
> utility that could map unused video RAM to DOS. I used a Hercules video
> card, so there was 64K available for remapping. DOS thought I had a
> 704K system.

That's pretty good, I must say. I remember doing some of those tricks to
get more memory available, but not that much!

>> And I got rid of my VIC-20, with "3583 bytes free", a long time ago. :-)
>
> Never had a VIC-20. I *did* log time on C-64s. There were some neat
> features
> hobbled by design to cost, like the snail slow interface on the 1541
> floppy.

The C-64 was the big brother to the VIC-20, and at the time, I coveted one.
And I also coveted having a disk drive, or even tape drive, to store the few
programs I wrote (mostly in BASIC). One asks, how did I save my programs,
then? The answer was: I left the VIC-20 on 24/7, and *prayed* there was
no power outage! Then I finally splurged and bought a cassette tape backup
for the VIC-20 - I was in heaven, then. (The disk drive option you
mentioned was just too expensive for me at the time - I think it cost as
much as the VIC-20, which at that time, was somewhere around $150 or so,
IIRC). But I did love the Commodore Basic (as found on either the VIC or
C-64).

[micky[_2_]]

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 11 Aug 2015 22:12:49
-0600, "Bill in Co" > wrote:

>DMcCunney wrote:
>> On 8/11/2015 8:23 PM, Nil wrote:
>>> On 11 Aug 2015, choro > wrote in
>>> microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:
>>>
>>>> IF and that's a big IF those floppies still work!
>>>
>>> True, dat. I've got a big box of floppies in the back of the closet. A
>>> few years ago I went through maybe half of the box, and maybe half of
>>> those couldn't be read. The ones that could be read and that I thought
>>> might have something of value on them I transferred to CD-R. I probably
>>> needn't have bothered. I should probably go ahead and toss out the
>>> whole box of floppies.
>>
>> Back in the day, there were lengthy discussions about what brand to buy
>> if you wanted to put the floppies on a shelf and still read them in five
>> years. Dysan was the gold standard.
>>
>>> 1.44 MB seemed like quite a lot or room at one time!
>>
>> In the MSDOS days, it was. There was also a freeware utility that would
>> format floppies to even higher capacity, though you couldn't read them
>> without that utility.
>>
>> I've still got a number of 3.5" and 5.25" floppies. I even have a combo
>> half height floppy drive that reads both types. Alas, the last time I
>> had to change motherboards in the machine it's in, it broke it.
>> Previously, the two drives were seen as A: and B:, with a jumper you set
>> on the drive to determine which was seen as which. With the new
>> motherboard, only A: was seen, and I'd have to pull the drive and reset
>> the jumper depending on which kind of floppy I wanted to read.

Maybe with your next mobo it will go back to working right again.
>> ______
>> Dennis
>
>I've still got a 3.5" drive on this Dell XP computer. And it's come in
>handy on a few occasions, too!
>
>I seem to remember the original IBM PC's coming with two 360KB, 5.25"
>drives. (It might have been 180 KB even before that, but I can't recall
>now).
>
>Remember when we thought 256K of RAM was "bountiful"? I think the original
>IBM PC started out with 64K, but again, my memory may be off.

Didn't Bill Gates say no one needs more than 64K?
>
>And I got rid of my VIC-20, with "6583 bytes free", a long time ago. :-)
>

[DMcCunney]

On 8/12/2015 12:16 PM, Bill in Co wrote:
> DMcCunney wrote:

>>> Remember when we thought 256K of RAM was "bountiful"? I think the
>>> original IBM PC started out with 64K, but again, my memory may be off.
>>
>> 256KB, I think. The older 8 bit CP/M machines maxxed out at 64K,
>> because that was the address space limit on the CPUs. RAM was expensive
>> back when.
>
> The IBM-PC started with 256K of RAM?? not 128K, or 64K? OK, I must be
> misrembering then (thinking of the first ones)

128KB is possible - I'd have to Look Stuff Up. I *don't* think they
were 64K. The 8088 had a 1MB address space, and part of the reason for
going to that sort of CPU was to support more RAM and allow larger
programs. DOS 1.X looked a lot like CP/M under the hoor to ease porting
of things like VisiCalc and WordStar. (The 640K limit for usable RAM,
with address space above that reserved for the system was an IBM
restriction.)

>> My old XT clone had 640K on the motherboard, and an AST 6-Pak card with
>> a meg of EMS RAM. 512K got allocated as a ramdisk, and 256K as cache,
>> with 256K available for apps that could use EMS. I found a freeware
>> utility that could map unused video RAM to DOS. I used a Hercules video
>> card, so there was 64K available for remapping. DOS thought I had a
>> 704K system.
>
> That's pretty good, I must say. I remember doing some of those tricks to
> get more memory available, but not that much!

If I used a CGA card, I could have mapped 96K of video RAM to DOS. :-)

I loaded drivers in CONFIG.SYS. In AUTOEXEC.BAT, I copied frequently
used utilities like LIST and an editor to the ramdisk, and set the PATH
so the ramdisk was first. I also specified the ramdisk as where to
create temp files for apps that be told where to place them, like PKZip.
Sped things up a treat.

The big win was when I discovered the MKS Toolkit.

I had a Unix system at home before I got a DOS PC (and still have it.)
I wanted to set the PC up as much like a Unix system as possible.

Mortice Kern Systems in Toronto were a consulting engineering firm.
They wrote the Toolkit in house for their own usage, and when it reached
a high enough state of development, released it as a product. It became
"the tail that wagged the dog", and turned into their primary business.

The Toolkit implemented all of the Unix utilities that made sense in a
single-user, single taking environment like DOS. The selling point for
me was a full implementation of the Unix Korn shell, with everything
save asynchronous background processes.

When you installed the Toolkit in fullest Unix compatibility mode, the
Toolkit init.exe program became the boot shell. Boot the system, and
you got a Login: prompt. Enter a userid and optional password, ant init
called login. Login checked against a Unix compatible /etc/passswd
file, and it it founds a match, it changed to what was specified as that
ID's home directory, and ran what was defined as that ID's shell. Exit
that program, anc control returned to init, which asked for another login.

I loaded mouse driver, ramdisk, cache, etc in CONFIG.SYS. From there
the Toolkit took over. I had ID's that ran vanilla COMMAND.COM, 4DOS,
the MKS Korn shell and DesqView, and I could switch environments
without rebooting. When I was in the Korn shell, you ahd to dig to
discover it *wasn't* a Unix system.

When I went to Win 3.1, the Tooklkit was still used. Win3.1 defaulted
to using Program Manager as the shell, but you could use something else
by specifying it in SYSTEM.INI. I used MKS userids that copied the
SYSTEM.INI file with my desired alternate shell over the real one, and
then ran Windows. Alternatively, I could skip running Windows and run
DesqView or just run a DOS system.

I had lots of fun getting it all working as desired. :-)

MKS no longer exists, but the Toolkit morphed into Interix, and that
underlies Microsoft's Services for Unix package.

>>> And I got rid of my VIC-20, with "3583 bytes free", a long time ago. :-)
>>
>> Never had a VIC-20. I *did* log time on C-64s. There were some neat
>> features hobbled by design to cost, like the snail slow interface on the
>> 1541 floppy.
>
> The C-64 was the big brother to the VIC-20, and at the time, I coveted one.
> And I also coveted having a disk drive, or even tape drive, to store the few
> programs I wrote (mostly in BASIC). One asks, how did I save my programs,
> then? The answer was: I left the VIC-20 on 24/7, and *prayed* there was
> no power outage! Then I finally splurged and bought a cassette tape backup
> for the VIC-20 - I was in heaven, then. (The disk drive option you
> mentioned was just too expensive for me at the time - I think it cost as
> much as the VIC-20, which at that time, was somewhere around $150 or so,
> IIRC). But I did love the Commodore Basic (as found on either the VIC or
> C-64).

Commodore BASIC was Microsoft BASIC v2 compiled for the 6502 CPU
Commodore used. There were an assortment of BASIC extenders available
that added more to it.

My favorite hack for the C64 was a program that hooked the RESTORE key.
RESTORE generated a non-maskable interrupt. By default, the machine
checked to see if Run/Stop was also pressed. If it was, it did a warm
start. If not it returned and nothing happened.

The C64 had 64K of RAM and 16K of ROM, in 8K chunks for the kernel and
BASIC. By default, the ROM was mapped into the 64K address space, but
there was a memory management register you could twiddle to map the
underlying RAM into the 64K instead. In the default memory map, you had
8K kernel ROM, 4k RAM, 8K BASIC ROM, and the rest was user memory, with
1K at the bottom holding pointers to system routines. Various
programmers wrote "wedges" that installed into the 4K space between the
ROMS, and acted like DOS TSRs, adding features.

The one I used twiddled memory mapping to store data and code in the RAM
normally not mapped. When you pressed the RESTORE key and *didn't* also
press Run/Stop, his wedge got triggered, and presented a menu actually
stored in "hidden" RAM of functions you could use. IT required careful
mapping, because the code run that way couldn't call kernel routines if
the kernel ROM was swapped out, and couldn't use BASIC if it's ROM was
swapped out. But it worked fine and was a nifty extension.

Another thing I used back when was the GEOS environment, which provided
a bit mapped GUI and various apps. They fact that they got it
shoehorned into 64K was a minor miracle. But you had to have a floppy
to run it, and the dead slow floppy interface made usage somewhat
painful. Tell it to load, then go make coffee. Buy the time you had
made an drank it, GEOS *might* have finished loading...

There are folks running the C-128 who added enough extra RAM to allocate
a ramdisk, put GEOS on it, and run it from there. I've been tempted off
and on over the years to snag a C-128 from eBay and do something like that.
______
Dennis

[Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]]

On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 15:34:53 -0400, DMcCunney
> wrote:

> On 8/12/2015 12:16 PM, Bill in Co wrote:
> > DMcCunney wrote:

> >> 256KB, I think. The older 8 bit CP/M machines maxxed out at 64K,
> >> because that was the address space limit on the CPUs. RAM was expensive
> >> back when.
> >
> > The IBM-PC started with 256K of RAM?? not 128K, or 64K? OK, I must be
> > misrembering then (thinking of the first ones)
>
> 128KB is possible - I'd have to Look Stuff Up. I *don't* think they
> were 64K.


Not 64K, and also not 128K or 256K. The first IBM-PC had 16K.

[DMcCunney]

On 8/12/2015 2:44 PM, micky wrote:

>> Remember when we thought 256K of RAM was "bountiful"? I think the original
>> IBM PC started out with 64K, but again, my memory may be off.
>
> Didn't Bill Gates say no one needs more than 64K?

Nope. I believe that's a canard. The limitation was 640K user memory
out of a 1MB total address space, and was IBM's doing. MS was not
responsible.

What became MSDOS was originally 86DOS, an OS from an outfit called
Seattle Computer Products for an 8086 based system using an S-100 bus
that they made and sold. It had roots in CP/M. MS picked it up when
IBM asked them to come up with an OS for the PC, after failing to reach
an agreement with Digital Research to port CP/M. MS was already
supplying a PC version of BASIC.

(IIRC, the chap who was primary developer for 86DOS didn't understand
why IBM why IBM imposed that limit. There was nothing on the OS that
required it.)

DR did belatedly enter the game with CP/M 86, and for a while PCDOS,
CP/M 86, and the UCSD P-System were contending to be the PC OS. DOS won.
______
Dennis

[Jim Lee]

On 8/12/2015 3:19 PM, DMcCunney wrote:
> On 8/12/2015 2:44 PM, micky wrote:
>
>>> Remember when we thought 256K of RAM was "bountiful"? I think the
>>> original
>>> IBM PC started out with 64K, but again, my memory may be off.
>>
>> Didn't Bill Gates say no one needs more than 64K?
>
> Nope. I believe that's a canard. The limitation was 640K user memory
> out of a 1MB total address space, and was IBM's doing. MS was not
> responsible.
>
> ______
> Dennis

Nope, not a canard - I was in the room when he said it. It was at a
Boston Computer Society meeting in the early '80's. He has been quoted
as saying it more than once, but this particular time was in response to
a question about why his basic interpreter didn't support the bank
switched memory of CP/M 3.

And, to answer the previous question, the original IBM PC came with 16K
of RAM, 64K as an option. The motherboard could be populated with up to
256K of dynamic RAM chips, which most people promptly took advantage of
after they realized how crippled the system was without them. Disk
drives were also optional, and you could use the built-in cassette
interface to load/store programs instead. Yes, the PC had a cassette
interface!

[Micky]

[Default] On Thu, 31 Dec 2015 12:33:34 -0800, in
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general Jim Lee > wrote:

>On 8/12/2015 3:19 PM, DMcCunney wrote:
>> On 8/12/2015 2:44 PM, micky wrote:
>>
>>>> Remember when we thought 256K of RAM was "bountiful"? I think the
>>>> original
>>>> IBM PC started out with 64K, but again, my memory may be off.
>>>
>>> Didn't Bill Gates say no one needs more than 64K?
>>
>> Nope. I believe that's a canard. The limitation was 640K user memory
>> out of a 1MB total address space, and was IBM's doing. MS was not
>> responsible.
>>
>> ______
>> Dennis
>
>Nope, not a canard - I was in the room when he said it. It was at a

Glad to hear it!

>Boston Computer Society meeting in the early '80's. He has been quoted
>as saying it more than once, but this particular time was in response to
>a question about why his basic interpreter didn't support the bank
>switched memory of CP/M 3.
>
>And, to answer the previous question, the original IBM PC came with 16K
>of RAM, 64K as an option. The motherboard could be populated with up to
>256K of dynamic RAM chips, which most people promptly took advantage of
>after they realized how crippled the system was without them. Disk
>drives were also optional, and you could use the built-in cassette
>interface to load/store programs instead. Yes, the PC had a cassette
>interface!

I only saw one. In 1972. A friend took a standard portable cassette
recorder, drilled a hole through the clear plastic cover over the
cassette and attached a foot indicator through the hole. Probably
had to rewind to the beginning for it it to keep track if you tried to
change cassettes.

[Paul]

Micky wrote:
> [Default] On Thu, 31 Dec 2015 12:33:34 -0800, in
> microsoft.public.windowsxp.general Jim Lee > wrote:
>
>> On 8/12/2015 3:19 PM, DMcCunney wrote:
>>> On 8/12/2015 2:44 PM, micky wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Remember when we thought 256K of RAM was "bountiful"? I think the
>>>>> original
>>>>> IBM PC started out with 64K, but again, my memory may be off.
>>>> Didn't Bill Gates say no one needs more than 64K?
>>> Nope. I believe that's a canard. The limitation was 640K user memory
>>> out of a 1MB total address space, and was IBM's doing. MS was not
>>> responsible.
>>>
>>> ______
>>> Dennis
>> Nope, not a canard - I was in the room when he said it. It was at a
>
> Glad to hear it!
>
>> Boston Computer Society meeting in the early '80's. He has been quoted
>> as saying it more than once, but this particular time was in response to
>> a question about why his basic interpreter didn't support the bank
>> switched memory of CP/M 3.
>>
>> And, to answer the previous question, the original IBM PC came with 16K
>> of RAM, 64K as an option. The motherboard could be populated with up to
>> 256K of dynamic RAM chips, which most people promptly took advantage of
>> after they realized how crippled the system was without them. Disk
>> drives were also optional, and you could use the built-in cassette
>> interface to load/store programs instead. Yes, the PC had a cassette
>> interface!
>
> I only saw one. In 1972. A friend took a standard portable cassette
> recorder, drilled a hole through the clear plastic cover over the
> cassette and attached a foot indicator through the hole. Probably
> had to rewind to the beginning for it it to keep track if you tried to
> change cassettes.

My ZX81 uses a cassette interface. Not automated at all. It
would take fifteen minutes of playback time, to load Chess :-)
It took slightly less time to back up the Z80 disassembler
I wrote on the ZX81. A really dumb disassembler, that used
every bit of RAM on the thing (16KB via DRAM plugin).

Other platforms of the day have used cassette as well. The
baud rate was something ridiculously low, like 300 baud or
1200 baud or the like. Simple minded FSK (frequency shift
keying) as encoding. Back in those days, they didn't have DSP,
so I don't know what crude technique they used for
regeneration.

See how insane we were back then ? :-)
All that rubbish to do FSK. They didn't have all
that stuff inside my ZX81.

http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/AC30/AC30_Index.htm

http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/BYTE/Dec1976/Dec_1976_BYTE.htm

I subscribed to Byte, but have probably thrown that one
away. I recognize that cover.

Paul