windows 10 next release

[Dino]

Anyone heard any rumors when it will be released?

[Andy]

Supposedly around September or October of this year:)


--
AL'S COMPUTERS
"Dino" > wrote in message ...
> Anyone heard any rumors when it will be released?

[Big_Al[_4_]]

Andy wrote on 3/11/2015 1:52 AM:
> Supposedly around September or October of this year:)
>
>
Really, I heard 10022 or 10031 was supposed to come out in the next week or two, March 20's or so

[Slimer]

On 2015-03-10 9:36 PM, Dino wrote:
> Anyone heard any rumors when it will be released?

Late 2015.

--
Slimer
OpenMedia, GreenPeace Supporter & SPCA Paw Partner
Encrypt.

- "Export-grade." Right. Not much of Winblows is "export grade"." -
chrisv, demonstrating that he has no idea what "export-grade" means
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accused advocates of "lying" about their kill-file usage." - chrisv,
accusing someone who in his killfile of lying about his killfile
- "For some time M$ mandated that IE be the only browser installed, and
that it appear right on the desktop. OEM's had no choice in the matter
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again lying shamelessly

[T]

On 03/11/2015 08:09 AM, Slimer wrote:
> On 2015-03-10 9:36 PM, Dino wrote:
>> Anyone heard any rumors when it will be released?
>
> Late 2015.
>

I believe he is looking for the next preview release, not the
general release. The rumor was that it was suppose to be
this week. But ...

[Disguised]

On 11-Mar-2015 14:01, T wrote:
> On 03/11/2015 08:09 AM, Slimer wrote:
>> On 2015-03-10 9:36 PM, Dino wrote:
>>> Anyone heard any rumors when it will be released?
>>
>> Late 2015.
>>
>
> I believe he is looking for the next preview release, not the
> general release. The rumor was that it was suppose to be
> this week. But ...

....and it's only Wednesday.

[Dino]

Disguised wrote:
> On 11-Mar-2015 14:01, T wrote:
>> On 03/11/2015 08:09 AM, Slimer wrote:
>>> On 2015-03-10 9:36 PM, Dino wrote:
>>>> Anyone heard any rumors when it will be released?
>>>
>>> Late 2015.
>>>
>>
>> I believe he is looking for the next preview release, not the
>> general release. The rumor was that it was suppose to be
>> this week. But ...
>
> ...and it's only Wednesday.
I should have said I meant the preview release.I just want to see if
start 8 also works on the next preview.It works fine on the present
release.Only way to get the tiles out of site.

[SC Tom[_3_]]

"Dino" > wrote in message
...
> Disguised wrote:
>> On 11-Mar-2015 14:01, T wrote:
>>> On 03/11/2015 08:09 AM, Slimer wrote:
>>>> On 2015-03-10 9:36 PM, Dino wrote:
>>>>> Anyone heard any rumors when it will be released?
>>>>
>>>> Late 2015.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I believe he is looking for the next preview release, not the
>>> general release. The rumor was that it was suppose to be
>>> this week. But ...
>>
>> ...and it's only Wednesday.
> I should have said I meant the preview release.I just want to see if
> start 8 also works on the next preview.It works fine on the present
> release.Only way to get the tiles out of site.

It's not the only way, but it is one way. Classic Shell will also do that
for free :-)
--
SC Tom

[Dino]

On 03/12/2015 07:33 AM, SC Tom wrote:
>
>
> "Dino" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Disguised wrote:
>>> On 11-Mar-2015 14:01, T wrote:
>>>> On 03/11/2015 08:09 AM, Slimer wrote:
>>>>> On 2015-03-10 9:36 PM, Dino wrote:
>>>>>> Anyone heard any rumors when it will be released?
>>>>>
>>>>> Late 2015.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe he is looking for the next preview release, not the
>>>> general release. The rumor was that it was suppose to be
>>>> this week. But ...
>>>
>>> ...and it's only Wednesday.
>> I should have said I meant the preview release.I just want to see if
>> start 8 also works on the next preview.It works fine on the present
>> release.Only way to get the tiles out of site.
>
> It's not the only way, but it is one way. Classic Shell will also do
> that for free :-)
I am not a big windows user so is classic shell a downloadable program?

[G. Morgan[_7_]]

Dino wrote:

>Anyone heard any rumors when it will be released?

I have it on good authority RTM will be in late June to mid July.

[G. Morgan[_7_]]

T wrote:

>On 03/11/2015 08:09 AM, Slimer wrote:
>> On 2015-03-10 9:36 PM, Dino wrote:
>>> Anyone heard any rumors when it will be released?
>>
>> Late 2015.
>>
>
>I believe he is looking for the next preview release, not the
>general release. The rumor was that it was suppose to be
>this week. But ...


A preview is not a release. So technically, Win 10 has not been released at
all.

[Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:08:41 -0500, G. Morgan
> wrote:


> I have it on good authority RTM will be in late June to mid July.


My understanding is that it is scheduled for September (although it's
little more than a rumor at this stage; schedules *do* get changed,
and it can always be later than planned).

What is your "good authority" that says otherwise? Please provide a
link.

[T]

On 03/12/2015 04:33 AM, SC Tom wrote:
>> I should have said I meant the preview release.I just want to see if
>> start 8 also works on the next preview.It works fine on the present
>> release.Only way to get the tiles out of site.
>
> It's not the only way, but it is one way. Classic Shell will also do
> that for free :-)


True, but I have to learn the hard way too as I need
to see the same thing my customer's see.

[T]

On 03/12/2015 07:49 AM, Dino wrote:
> On 03/12/2015 07:33 AM, SC Tom wrote:

>> It's not the only way, but it is one way. Classic Shell will also do
>> that for free :-)

> I am not a big windows user so is classic shell a downloadable program?

Hi Dino,

Classic Shell:
http://www.classicshell.net/

I install it frequently on Frankenstein (w8) compuyters
at my customer sites. (I don't use it becasue i need to
be fluent in the default that my custom's see.)

I have corresponded with the authors of the Classic
Shell. And, I do like their attitude.

I haven't test Classic shell with Son-of-Frankenstein
(w10 preview). I suppose I should and then remove it.
Anyone else try it yet in 10?

-T

[T]

On 03/12/2015 08:09 AM, G. Morgan wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>> On 03/11/2015 08:09 AM, Slimer wrote:
>>> On 2015-03-10 9:36 PM, Dino wrote:
>>>> Anyone heard any rumors when it will be released?
>>>
>>> Late 2015.
>>>
>>
>> I believe he is looking for the next preview release, not the
>> general release. The rumor was that it was suppose to be
>> this week. But ...
>
>
> A preview is not a release. So technically, Win 10 has not been released at
> all.
>
>

Hi G.,

Be careful mixing common language with technical language.
Not everyone is speaking to you in technical language.

On the Linux side, I have raised ire by calling RPMs
"spins" (only distributions are spins, not "RPMs").
To me, spinning something up is a great way of describing
"recompiling", but I lost that one.

And sometimes you get the common usage of "virus" for
"malware". And it doesn't help that the AV companies
call their stuff "anti-virus". In their defense,
But they are selling based on command language and
not technical language as they fear no one will know
what they are talking about.

Sometimes I have even ****ed off the technical grammar
police by calling "switching hubs" by their English
usage name of "hub". I quote them the dictionary.
They **** and sputter. I quote them them mathematical
meaning of the term subset. More bitching.

So, basically, you have to know your audience. I have
had "I have a virus" used for anything someone doesn't
understand.

And of boy, the words they use when they catch a
junkware bomb! (Not re-printable on a family group.)

-T

[T]

On 03/12/2015 10:03 AM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:08:41 -0500, G. Morgan
> > wrote:
>
>
>> I have it on good authority RTM will be in late June to mid July.
>
>
> My understanding is that it is scheduled for September (although it's
> little more than a rumor at this stage; schedules *do* get changed,
> and it can always be later than planned).
>
> What is your "good authority" that says otherwise? Please provide a
> link.
>

Its coming! We all need to be ready! And a special
thank you to all that are helping me to do that.

[Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 15:03:38 -0700, T > wrote:

> On 03/12/2015 10:03 AM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:08:41 -0500, G. Morgan
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I have it on good authority RTM will be in late June to mid July.
> >
> >
> > My understanding is that it is scheduled for September (although it's
> > little more than a rumor at this stage; schedules *do* get changed,
> > and it can always be later than planned).
> >
> > What is your "good authority" that says otherwise? Please provide a
> > link.
> >
>
> Its coming! We all need to be ready! And a special
> thank you to all that are helping me to do that.


???? A non-answer to the question I asked?

Is there no answer because there is no "good authority RTM will be in
late June to mid July"?

[T]

On 03/12/2015 04:32 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 15:03:38 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> On 03/12/2015 10:03 AM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:08:41 -0500, G. Morgan
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have it on good authority RTM will be in late June to mid July.
>>>
>>>
>>> My understanding is that it is scheduled for September (although it's
>>> little more than a rumor at this stage; schedules *do* get changed,
>>> and it can always be later than planned).
>>>
>>> What is your "good authority" that says otherwise? Please provide a
>>> link.
>>>
>>
>> Its coming! We all need to be ready! And a special
>> thank you to all that are helping me to do that.
>
>
> ???? A non-answer to the question I asked?
>
> Is there no answer because there is no "good authority RTM will be in
> late June to mid July"?
>

Hi Ken,

It was just small talk with a friend. I mistook your question
as a statement.

I see the release date all over the place. Mainly I get my
"rumors" from info world.

This is the best rumor I could find:
Windows 10 Release Date

http://pcsupport.about.com/od/windows-10/fl/windows-10.htm
"While no official release date has been announced
by Microsoft, Windows 10 is rumored to be released
sometime in Q4 2015, possibly in October."


I hope M$ takes their time and makes it right, rather
than rushing it to market. M$ has a habit of releasing
Beta code to the public as a general release (RTM).
Remember the rule about waiting till Service Pack 1 (on
M$ Software) before upgrading?

-T

I only found one bug in Fedora Code 21 Beta. They have
yet to fix it, but that is unusual. And when General
Release came out, the upgrade went perfectly.

I see 22 Alpha just came out. I promised the Xfce Live
folks I'd test when they had their spin (I know, it is
not a spin) ready.

[SC Tom[_3_]]

"T" > wrote in message ...
> On 03/12/2015 07:49 AM, Dino wrote:
>> On 03/12/2015 07:33 AM, SC Tom wrote:
>
>>> It's not the only way, but it is one way. Classic Shell will also do
>>> that for free :-)
>
>> I am not a big windows user so is classic shell a downloadable program?
>
> Hi Dino,
>
> Classic Shell:
> http://www.classicshell.net/
>
> I install it frequently on Frankenstein (w8) compuyters
> at my customer sites. (I don't use it becasue i need to
> be fluent in the default that my custom's see.)
>
> I have corresponded with the authors of the Classic
> Shell. And, I do like their attitude.
>
> I haven't test Classic shell with Son-of-Frankenstein
> (w10 preview). I suppose I should and then remove it.
> Anyone else try it yet in 10?
>
> -T
>
I use it, and it works fine on my Win10 setup.
--
SC Tom

[T]

On 03/12/2015 08:34 PM, SC Tom wrote:
>
>
> "T" > wrote in message ...
>> On 03/12/2015 07:49 AM, Dino wrote:
>>> On 03/12/2015 07:33 AM, SC Tom wrote:
>>
>>>> It's not the only way, but it is one way. Classic Shell will also do
>>>> that for free :-)
>>
>>> I am not a big windows user so is classic shell a downloadable program?
>>
>> Hi Dino,
>>
>> Classic Shell:
>> http://www.classicshell.net/
>>
>> I install it frequently on Frankenstein (w8) compuyters
>> at my customer sites. (I don't use it becasue i need to
>> be fluent in the default that my custom's see.)
>>
>> I have corresponded with the authors of the Classic
>> Shell. And, I do like their attitude.
>>
>> I haven't test Classic shell with Son-of-Frankenstein
>> (w10 preview). I suppose I should and then remove it.
>> Anyone else try it yet in 10?
>>
>> -T
>>
> I use it, and it works fine on my Win10 setup.

Hi Tom,

Cool. Thank you for the feed back!

I wish it was still open source.

-T

[SC Tom[_3_]]

"T" > wrote in message ...
> On 03/12/2015 08:34 PM, SC Tom wrote:
>>
>>
>> "T" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 03/12/2015 07:49 AM, Dino wrote:
>>>> On 03/12/2015 07:33 AM, SC Tom wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It's not the only way, but it is one way. Classic Shell will also do
>>>>> that for free :-)
>>>
>>>> I am not a big windows user so is classic shell a downloadable program?
>>>
>>> Hi Dino,
>>>
>>> Classic Shell:
>>> http://www.classicshell.net/
>>>
>>> I install it frequently on Frankenstein (w8) compuyters
>>> at my customer sites. (I don't use it becasue i need to
>>> be fluent in the default that my custom's see.)
>>>
>>> I have corresponded with the authors of the Classic
>>> Shell. And, I do like their attitude.
>>>
>>> I haven't test Classic shell with Son-of-Frankenstein
>>> (w10 preview). I suppose I should and then remove it.
>>> Anyone else try it yet in 10?
>>>
>>> -T
>>>
>> I use it, and it works fine on my Win10 setup.
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> Cool. Thank you for the feed back!
>
> I wish it was still open source.
>
> -T

Just to clarify, it's v4.2 Beta that works with Win10, not the regular
release of v4.1. I didn't try v4.1 since I read a number of posts stating
that it wouldn't install, so I went straight to the Beta release, and it
works fine. I guess it's a test release for a test OS :-)
--
SC Tom

[T]

On 03/13/2015 11:15 AM, SC Tom wrote:
>
>
> "T" > wrote in message ...
>> On 03/12/2015 08:34 PM, SC Tom wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "T" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On 03/12/2015 07:49 AM, Dino wrote:
>>>>> On 03/12/2015 07:33 AM, SC Tom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> It's not the only way, but it is one way. Classic Shell will also do
>>>>>> that for free :-)
>>>>
>>>>> I am not a big windows user so is classic shell a downloadable
>>>>> program?
>>>>
>>>> Hi Dino,
>>>>
>>>> Classic Shell:
>>>> http://www.classicshell.net/
>>>>
>>>> I install it frequently on Frankenstein (w8) compuyters
>>>> at my customer sites. (I don't use it becasue i need to
>>>> be fluent in the default that my custom's see.)
>>>>
>>>> I have corresponded with the authors of the Classic
>>>> Shell. And, I do like their attitude.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't test Classic shell with Son-of-Frankenstein
>>>> (w10 preview). I suppose I should and then remove it.
>>>> Anyone else try it yet in 10?
>>>>
>>>> -T
>>>>
>>> I use it, and it works fine on my Win10 setup.
>>
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> Cool. Thank you for the feed back!
>>
>> I wish it was still open source.
>>
>> -T
>
> Just to clarify, it's v4.2 Beta that works with Win10, not the regular
> release of v4.1. I didn't try v4.1 since I read a number of posts
> stating that it wouldn't install, so I went straight to the Beta
> release, and it works fine. I guess it's a test release for a test OS :-)

Thank you!

[Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:48:42 -0700, T > wrote:

> On 03/12/2015 04:32 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 15:03:38 -0700, T > wrote:
> >
> >> On 03/12/2015 10:03 AM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:08:41 -0500, G. Morgan
> >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I have it on good authority RTM will be in late June to mid July.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> My understanding is that it is scheduled for September (although it's
> >>> little more than a rumor at this stage; schedules *do* get changed,
> >>> and it can always be later than planned).
> >>>
> >>> What is your "good authority" that says otherwise? Please provide a
> >>> link.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Its coming! We all need to be ready! And a special
> >> thank you to all that are helping me to do that.
> >
> >
> > ???? A non-answer to the question I asked?
> >
> > Is there no answer because there is no "good authority RTM will be in
> > late June to mid July"?
> >
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> It was just small talk with a friend. I mistook your question
> as a statement.
>
> I see the release date all over the place. Mainly I get my
> "rumors" from info world.
>
> This is the best rumor I could find:
> Windows 10 Release Date
>
> http://pcsupport.about.com/od/windows-10/fl/windows-10.htm
> "While no official release date has been announced
> by Microsoft, Windows 10 is rumored to be released
> sometime in Q4 2015, possibly in October."



Yes, that's not very different from the September release date that
I've heard.

But they are all rumors. Don't put too much faith in them.



> I hope M$ takes their time and makes it right, rather
> than rushing it to market.


With Microsoft or any other software company, it's always a war
between the marketing people (who want to release it *now*) and the
Quality Assurance people (who want to delay it longer and longer).
Unfortunately, with all the software companies, the marketing people
almost always win.



> M$ has a habit of releasing
> Beta code to the public as a general release (RTM).

> Remember the rule about waiting till Service Pack 1 (on
> M$ Software) before upgrading?



It's not a rule, but it's believed by many people. I completely
disagree. I'm never in favor of waiting for a Service Pack. The point
in time when a service pack is released is at the discretion of
Microsoft and is completely arbitrary. Upgrades and fixes to any
version of Windows are released when needed--once a month, normally,
but more often when necessary. At some arbitrary point, Microsoft
decides to roll up all those upgrades and fixes into one package and
calls the result a service pack.

There's no particular significance to when that service pack is
released, and it doesn't mark a special point of stability. There were
upgrades before it and there will be more upgrades after it. Since it
has no particular significance, treating it as a special event, and
waiting for it, is meaningless.

[T]

On 03/13/2015 02:04 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:48:42 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> On 03/12/2015 04:32 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 15:03:38 -0700, T > wrote:

> There's no particular significance to when that service pack is
> released, and it doesn't mark a special point of stability. There were
> upgrades before it and there will be more upgrades after it. Since it
> has no particular significance, treating it as a special event, and
> waiting for it, is meaningless.
>

I agree.

Vista cleaned up real well after Service Pack 2

Latest Info World rumor (with nothing new to say):
http://www.infoworld.com/article/2896633/operating-systems/windows-10-beta-pace-fast-is-about-to-go-faster.html

[Paul]

T wrote:
> On 03/13/2015 02:04 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:48:42 -0700, T > wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/12/2015 04:32 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 15:03:38 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> There's no particular significance to when that service pack is
>> released, and it doesn't mark a special point of stability. There were
>> upgrades before it and there will be more upgrades after it. Since it
>> has no particular significance, treating it as a special event, and
>> waiting for it, is meaningless.
>>
>
> I agree.
>
> Vista cleaned up real well after Service Pack 2
>
> Latest Info World rumor (with nothing new to say):
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2896633/operating-systems/windows-10-beta-pace-fast-is-about-to-go-faster.html
>

The September date is picked to align with the perceived market.
Since the Win10 OS is "derivative", there's really no reason
for it to "slip" on the delivery date. Only if they got
adventurous, actually changed something, would there be
a risk of "blowing it".

Vista took five years to deliver, with lots of stops along
the way. And got rammed out, to suit a deadline. And then
required the Service Packs, to cover off the things
uncovered during the real test interval.

Later OSes (W7,W8,W8.1,W10) should be more derivative.
And there should be better control over schedules
and delivery dates.

I don't expect Microsoft will *ever* write another
desktop OS from scratch. They won't do a "Vista adventure"
again. We're past that point.

Paul

[T]

On 03/13/2015 05:07 PM, Paul wrote:
> T wrote:
>> On 03/13/2015 02:04 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:48:42 -0700, T > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03/12/2015 04:32 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 15:03:38 -0700, T > wrote:
>>
>>> There's no particular significance to when that service pack is
>>> released, and it doesn't mark a special point of stability. There were
>>> upgrades before it and there will be more upgrades after it. Since it
>>> has no particular significance, treating it as a special event, and
>>> waiting for it, is meaningless.
>>>
>>
>> I agree.
>>
>> Vista cleaned up real well after Service Pack 2
>>
>> Latest Info World rumor (with nothing new to say):
>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2896633/operating-systems/windows-10-beta-pace-fast-is-about-to-go-faster.html
>>
>
> The September date is picked to align with the perceived market.
> Since the Win10 OS is "derivative", there's really no reason
> for it to "slip" on the delivery date. Only if they got
> adventurous, actually changed something, would there be
> a risk of "blowing it".
>
> Vista took five years to deliver, with lots of stops along
> the way. And got rammed out, to suit a deadline. And then
> required the Service Packs, to cover off the things
> uncovered during the real test interval.
>
> Later OSes (W7,W8,W8.1,W10) should be more derivative.
> And there should be better control over schedules
> and delivery dates.
>
> I don't expect Microsoft will *ever* write another
> desktop OS from scratch. They won't do a "Vista adventure"
> again. We're past that point.
>
> Paul

Hi Paul,

On your excellent point about marketing overriding
QC, there is a rule in business

It is better to be late and right, the customer
will forgive you, than to be on time and wrong,
the customer will never forgive you.

Apple is so often late to the market and they dominate
everyone that beat them to market.

My impression of so many M$ releases is that a lot
of it is beautifully polished and a pleasure to use,
and then suddenly, what the h--- is this? Like
it got ripped off the programmers desk and rammed
out the door.

When I was working for a company 25 years ago, a
customer had ordered 100,000+ U$D filter. The tech
was putting final touches on it getting it all tuned.
And, it was almost late and was on the way to being
about five days late. The tech went to the long
bathroom. The pendejo boss (his and mine), saw Fed Ex
was doing a pick up in the back, ripped the filter
off the technicians bench and shipped it.

The next day, corporate got a furious phone call from
the customer, loose connectors and all. When all shook
out, the technician got a reprimand (he almost quit
and was a millisecond away from decking the ass hole).
And the pendejo got a pat on the back for meeting
schedule. UNBELIEVABLE.

That same pendejo use to get in my face spitting
"JUST SHIP IT". He was the idiot that gave the foolish
date(s) and left me out of the process.

And as long as the pendejos of this world get away
with it, there will be no end to it. UNBELIEVABLE.
I have a bad feeling about Son-of-Frankenstein (w10).
Instead of selling it as "not as bad as Frankenstein",
they need to sell it with "Better than Windows 7"
AND FOLLOW THROUGH !!!

Excellent point you made about the service packs.
They are simple a collection of previous updates.

I like them because they have the superseded, conflicting
botched updates removed, that is why I use WSUS to update
a new W7 install. Sort of the same idea. Don't like
holding my breath hope the thing boots back up.

Not that you would want to but here is search listing
a bunch of M$'s botched updates:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=microsoft+botched+updates

My build of Son-of-Frankenstien only had one update
and it hosed the thing. I had to reinstall, which
I had to learn anyway, so what the heck ...
I just shook my head. W10 is going to be an interesting
ride.

-T

[Slimer]

On 2015-03-13 9:47 PM, T wrote:
> On 03/13/2015 05:07 PM, Paul wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>> On 03/13/2015 02:04 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:48:42 -0700, T > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 03/12/2015 04:32 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 15:03:38 -0700, T > wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's no particular significance to when that service pack is
>>>> released, and it doesn't mark a special point of stability. There were
>>>> upgrades before it and there will be more upgrades after it. Since it
>>>> has no particular significance, treating it as a special event, and
>>>> waiting for it, is meaningless.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>>
>>> Vista cleaned up real well after Service Pack 2
>>>
>>> Latest Info World rumor (with nothing new to say):
>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2896633/operating-systems/windows-10-beta-pace-fast-is-about-to-go-faster.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The September date is picked to align with the perceived market.
>> Since the Win10 OS is "derivative", there's really no reason
>> for it to "slip" on the delivery date. Only if they got
>> adventurous, actually changed something, would there be
>> a risk of "blowing it".
>>
>> Vista took five years to deliver, with lots of stops along
>> the way. And got rammed out, to suit a deadline. And then
>> required the Service Packs, to cover off the things
>> uncovered during the real test interval.
>>
>> Later OSes (W7,W8,W8.1,W10) should be more derivative.
>> And there should be better control over schedules
>> and delivery dates.
>>
>> I don't expect Microsoft will *ever* write another
>> desktop OS from scratch. They won't do a "Vista adventure"
>> again. We're past that point.
>>
>> Paul
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> On your excellent point about marketing overriding
> QC, there is a rule in business
>
> It is better to be late and right, the customer
> will forgive you, than to be on time and wrong,
> the customer will never forgive you.
>
> Apple is so often late to the market and they dominate
> everyone that beat them to market.

Yet another lie from the idiot Linux advocate. Apple sure was late to
the market by providing the first decent portable MP3 player. I'd like
to remind you that they were also the first to release the first decent
tablet and the first decent ultrabook. As much as you'll enjoy pointing
out that others came before it, Apple was also the first to provide a
decent touch smartphone and now the first decent ultrabook with USB 3.1.
Before that, they were the first to have computers featuring
Thunderbolt. I don't know where you get your "facts," but they seem to
come from the same area as your excrement and smell the same.

> My impression of so many M$ releases is that a lot
> of it is beautifully polished and a pleasure to use,
> and then suddenly, what the h--- is this? Like
> it got ripped off the programmers desk and rammed
> out the door.

Yeah, because people sure disliked Windows 7. It really felt "rushed,"
even in Beta, when there were few bugs for us to report and even fewer
performance issues to complain about.

> And as long as the pendejos of this world get away
> with it, there will be no end to it. UNBELIEVABLE.
> I have a bad feeling about Son-of-Frankenstein (w10).
> Instead of selling it as "not as bad as Frankenstein",
> they need to sell it with "Better than Windows 7"
> AND FOLLOW THROUGH !!!

You're insinuating that Windows 7 was bad. Just about everyone who used
it thought that it was the best version of Windows ever shipped. There's
a reason a lot of people refuse to upgrade to Windows 8.1 and it's not
only because of the modern interface; it's because of how perfect
Windows 7 is. I don't know why you feel the need to lie so much, but
nobody here is dumb enough to believe you. This place isn't filled with
ridiculous imbeciles like comp.os.linux.advocacy is.

> I like them because they have the superseded, conflicting
> botched updates removed, that is why I use WSUS to update
> a new W7 install. Sort of the same idea. Don't like
> holding my breath hope the thing boots back up.

You mean the way that Linux users have to hold their breath every time
they update because an updated language file can somehow make the system
unbootable?

--
Slimer
OpenMedia, GreenPeace Supporter & SPCA Paw Partner
Encrypt.

- "Export-grade." Right. Not much of Winblows is "export grade"." -
chrisv, demonstrating that he has no idea what "export-grade" means
- "Both you and the POS that calls itself "GreyCloud" have *baselessly*
accused advocates of "lying" about their kill-file usage." - chrisv,
accusing someone who in his killfile of lying about his killfile
- "For some time M$ mandated that IE be the only browser installed, and
that it appear right on the desktop. OEM's had no choice in the matter
- M$ insisted on control of the boot process." - chrisv, lying shamelessly
- "Too bloated for the 386? X ran happily on lesser machines." -
JEDIDIAH, lying shamelessly
- "PnP hardware worked in Linux like it did in WinDOS." - JEDIDIAH,
again lying shamelessly
- "Are you still a homophobe or have you finally come out of the
closet?" - Donald Miller, too dumb to know the difference between a
homophobe and a homosexual.
- "Idiot. That (referring to software Creative Labs provided with its
Sound Blaster line) was needed because the MSDOS driver was too dumb to
figure out the parameters on its own. That has absolutely nothing to do
with "software which essentually configured the card"" - Peter Köhlmann,
trying in vain to change the meaning of the word "configure."

[Char Jackson]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 14:04:00 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP" >
wrote:

>It's not a rule, but it's believed by many people. I completely
>disagree. I'm never in favor of waiting for a Service Pack. The point
>in time when a service pack is released is at the discretion of
>Microsoft and is completely arbitrary. Upgrades and fixes to any
>version of Windows are released when needed--once a month, normally,
>but more often when necessary. At some arbitrary point, Microsoft
>decides to roll up all those upgrades and fixes into one package and
>calls the result a service pack.
>
>There's no particular significance to when that service pack is
>released, and it doesn't mark a special point of stability. There were
>upgrades before it and there will be more upgrades after it. Since it
>has no particular significance, treating it as a special event, and
>waiting for it, is meaningless.

Thanks, Ken. That was very well said. I've explained essentially the same
thing on many occasions, but probably not as eloquently as you just did.

[GreyCloud[_2_]]

Slimer wrote:

> On 2015-03-13 9:47 PM, T wrote:
>> On 03/13/2015 05:07 PM, Paul wrote:
>>> T wrote:
>>>> On 03/13/2015 02:04 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:48:42 -0700, T > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 03/12/2015 04:32 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 15:03:38 -0700, T > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There's no particular significance to when that service pack is
>>>>> released, and it doesn't mark a special point of stability. There were
>>>>> upgrades before it and there will be more upgrades after it. Since it
>>>>> has no particular significance, treating it as a special event, and
>>>>> waiting for it, is meaningless.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree.
>>>>
>>>> Vista cleaned up real well after Service Pack 2
>>>>
>>>> Latest Info World rumor (with nothing new to say):
>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2896633/operating-systems/windows-10-
beta-pace-fast-is-about-to-go-faster.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The September date is picked to align with the perceived market.
>>> Since the Win10 OS is "derivative", there's really no reason
>>> for it to "slip" on the delivery date. Only if they got
>>> adventurous, actually changed something, would there be
>>> a risk of "blowing it".
>>>
>>> Vista took five years to deliver, with lots of stops along
>>> the way. And got rammed out, to suit a deadline. And then
>>> required the Service Packs, to cover off the things
>>> uncovered during the real test interval.
>>>
>>> Later OSes (W7,W8,W8.1,W10) should be more derivative.
>>> And there should be better control over schedules
>>> and delivery dates.
>>>
>>> I don't expect Microsoft will *ever* write another
>>> desktop OS from scratch. They won't do a "Vista adventure"
>>> again. We're past that point.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> On your excellent point about marketing overriding
>> QC, there is a rule in business
>>
>> It is better to be late and right, the customer
>> will forgive you, than to be on time and wrong,
>> the customer will never forgive you.
>>
>> Apple is so often late to the market and they dominate
>> everyone that beat them to market.
>
> Yet another lie from the idiot Linux advocate. Apple sure was late to
> the market by providing the first decent portable MP3 player. I'd like
> to remind you that they were also the first to release the first decent
> tablet and the first decent ultrabook. As much as you'll enjoy pointing
> out that others came before it, Apple was also the first to provide a
> decent touch smartphone and now the first decent ultrabook with USB 3.1.
> Before that, they were the first to have computers featuring
> Thunderbolt. I don't know where you get your "facts," but they seem to
> come from the same area as your excrement and smell the same.
>
>> My impression of so many M$ releases is that a lot
>> of it is beautifully polished and a pleasure to use,
>> and then suddenly, what the h--- is this? Like
>> it got ripped off the programmers desk and rammed
>> out the door.
>
> Yeah, because people sure disliked Windows 7. It really felt "rushed,"
> even in Beta, when there were few bugs for us to report and even fewer
> performance issues to complain about.
>
>> And as long as the pendejos of this world get away
>> with it, there will be no end to it. UNBELIEVABLE.
>> I have a bad feeling about Son-of-Frankenstein (w10).
>> Instead of selling it as "not as bad as Frankenstein",
>> they need to sell it with "Better than Windows 7"
>> AND FOLLOW THROUGH !!!
>
> You're insinuating that Windows 7 was bad. Just about everyone who used
> it thought that it was the best version of Windows ever shipped. There's
> a reason a lot of people refuse to upgrade to Windows 8.1 and it's not
> only because of the modern interface; it's because of how perfect
> Windows 7 is. I don't know why you feel the need to lie so much, but
> nobody here is dumb enough to believe you. This place isn't filled with
> ridiculous imbeciles like comp.os.linux.advocacy is.
>

I don't know why he keeps calling windows 8.1 a frankenstein os.
It is a way to bridge both the desktop and mobile devices. I don't see any
Linux distro doing that, considering the bloatedness of X11.

>> I like them because they have the superseded, conflicting
>> botched updates removed, that is why I use WSUS to update
>> a new W7 install. Sort of the same idea. Don't like
>> holding my breath hope the thing boots back up.
>
> You mean the way that Linux users have to hold their breath every time
> they update because an updated language file can somehow make the system
> unbootable?
>

He's a Linux fanboi.

[Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]]

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 10:45:41 -0500, Char Jackson >
wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 14:04:00 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP" >
> wrote:
>
> >It's not a rule, but it's believed by many people. I completely
> >disagree. I'm never in favor of waiting for a Service Pack. The point
> >in time when a service pack is released is at the discretion of
> >Microsoft and is completely arbitrary. Upgrades and fixes to any
> >version of Windows are released when needed--once a month, normally,
> >but more often when necessary. At some arbitrary point, Microsoft
> >decides to roll up all those upgrades and fixes into one package and
> >calls the result a service pack.
> >
> >There's no particular significance to when that service pack is
> >released, and it doesn't mark a special point of stability. There were
> >upgrades before it and there will be more upgrades after it. Since it
> >has no particular significance, treating it as a special event, and
> >waiting for it, is meaningless.
>
> Thanks, Ken. That was very well said. I've explained essentially the same
> thing on many occasions, but probably not as eloquently as you just did.



Thanks for agreeing, and thanks for the kind words.

[T]

On 03/14/2015 08:45 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 14:04:00 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP" >
> wrote:
>
>> It's not a rule, but it's believed by many people. I completely
>> disagree. I'm never in favor of waiting for a Service Pack. The point
>> in time when a service pack is released is at the discretion of
>> Microsoft and is completely arbitrary. Upgrades and fixes to any
>> version of Windows are released when needed--once a month, normally,
>> but more often when necessary. At some arbitrary point, Microsoft
>> decides to roll up all those upgrades and fixes into one package and
>> calls the result a service pack.
>>
>> There's no particular significance to when that service pack is
>> released, and it doesn't mark a special point of stability. There were
>> upgrades before it and there will be more upgrades after it. Since it
>> has no particular significance, treating it as a special event, and
>> waiting for it, is meaningless.
>
> Thanks, Ken. That was very well said. I've explained essentially the same
> thing on many occasions, but probably not as eloquently as you just did.
>

Hi Char,

XP SP3 and Frankenstein (Windows) 8.1 had a lot of rewrites in them.

I loved XP-SP3. 5% faster (the customer could notice it) and a lot
more stable. M$ did a good job on that one. Seemed to do
a good job on Vista-SP2, if you get get it loaded! My favorite
service pack of all time is XP-SP3

But, what Ken states is usually the case. They are just a
collection of updates.

I love it when the OEM disks include them (XP-SP3, W7-Sp1,
W8.1) so I don't have to fight getting them installed.

Service packs also have all the conflicting updates removed.

-T

[T]

On 03/14/2015 11:08 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
> I don't know why he keeps calling windows 8.1 a frankenstein os.
> It is a way to bridge both the desktop and mobile devices. I don't see any
> Linux distro doing that, considering the bloatedness of X11.

Hi Grey Cloud,

I call it Frankenstein because it is stitching a piece of
one dissimilar thing onto another. I am not the first
person that came up with that name for it. And it fits like
a glove.

A lot of folks I know (that did not listen to me and get W7)
are almost in tears over Frankenstein.

And, although Frankenstein is a major marvel of innovation,
it is not something the customers generally (if ever) want.
Tablets and Desktop are used for dissimilar purposes.
Plus M$ did not do either the tablet side or the desktop
side very well. The iPad is intuitively obvious; Frankenstein
has the antidote.

Tablets are great for receiving information but awful for
creating information. They have their place.

There is a reason why Apple has a full professional operating
system (OSx) for their desktops and a separate operating system
for their toy computers (iPhone, iPad) (iOS).

M$ screwed up big time. (Me thinks they were after something
to complete with the Apple store.)

And M$ doesn't listen to anyone. Info World had the most
wonderful proposal called "Windows Red" that would have
kicked ass.

http://www.infoworld.com/article/2614655/microsoft-windows/microsoft-windows-how-windows-red-can-fix-windows-8-the-right-strategy-for-microsoft.html

But M$ chose to stay the Frankenstein course.

-T

Ya, you are kind of right. I do like Linux. My self and
my customers that use it, I mainly help (teach) with
the programs.

[Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]]

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:53:34 -0700, T > wrote:


> XP SP3 and Frankenstein (Windows) 8.1 had a lot of rewrites in them.


I hate to complain, but I need to tell you that I'm getting tired of
your calling Windows 8.1 Frankenstein. I don't agree with you that
it's terrible, but even if I did, it might have been mildly funny the
first time, but it's been a long time since it was.

So please, knock it off.

[T]

On 03/14/2015 07:01 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:53:34 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>
>> XP SP3 and Frankenstein (Windows) 8.1 had a lot of rewrites in them.
>
>
> I hate to complain, but I need to tell you that I'm getting tired of
> your calling Windows 8.1 Frankenstein. I don't agree with you that
> it's terrible, but even if I did, it might have been mildly funny the
> first time, but it's been a long time since it was.
>
> So please, knock it off.
>

Hi Ken,

Probably not going to happen. The name fits like a glove.

I am not the first, either

Windows 8 Consumer Preview: 'Windows Frankenstein':

http://www.infoworld.com/article/2619383/microsoft-windows/windows-8-consumer-preview---windows-frankenstein-.html

Here is a more thorough list:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Windows+frankenstein

By the way, I am grad you like Frankenstein. None of
my customers do and some are almost in tears over it.

-T

[GreyCloud[_2_]]

T wrote:

> On 03/14/2015 11:08 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>> I don't know why he keeps calling windows 8.1 a frankenstein os.
>> It is a way to bridge both the desktop and mobile devices. I don't see
>> any Linux distro doing that, considering the bloatedness of X11.
>
> Hi Grey Cloud,
>
> I call it Frankenstein because it is stitching a piece of
> one dissimilar thing onto another. I am not the first
> person that came up with that name for it. And it fits like
> a glove.

It isn't... it is called bridging.
The reviewer probably doesn't even have a clue.
Calling it Frankenstein... well, then we can call Linux almost an OS too.
After 20 years and still a small percentage of the market place. And it is
given away for free.

>
> A lot of folks I know (that did not listen to me and get W7)
> are almost in tears over Frankenstein.
>

I'm not.
I like Win7, especially on an HP tower.

> And, although Frankenstein is a major marvel of innovation,
> it is not something the customers generally (if ever) want.
> Tablets and Desktop are used for dissimilar purposes.
> Plus M$ did not do either the tablet side or the desktop
> side very well. The iPad is intuitively obvious; Frankenstein
> has the antidote.
>
> Tablets are great for receiving information but awful for
> creating information. They have their place.
>
> There is a reason why Apple has a full professional operating
> system (OSx) for their desktops and a separate operating system
> for their toy computers (iPhone, iPad) (iOS).
>
> M$ screwed up big time. (Me thinks they were after something
> to complete with the Apple store.)
>
> And M$ doesn't listen to anyone. Info World had the most
> wonderful proposal called "Windows Red" that would have
> kicked ass.
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2614655/microsoft-windows/microsoft-
windows-how-windows-red-can-fix-windows-8-the-right-strategy-for-
microsoft.html
>
> But M$ chose to stay the Frankenstein course.

It is a unification of mobile and desktop operating systems. It is cost
effective for MS.

[T]

On 03/14/2015 09:57 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
> It isn't... it is called bridging.

Hi Grey Cloud,

That is a nice term for ramming two technologies
together that don't belong together.

> The reviewer probably doesn't even have a clue.

"probably" means you didn't read it. The writer was dead on.

> Calling it Frankenstein... well, then we can call Linux almost an OS too.

You worked on that one, didn't you. Okay an "A" for effort,
which was impressive.

Linux is "obscure", not a kludge of technologies that don't
belong together.

> After 20 years and still a small percentage of the market place. And it is
> given away for free.
>
>> >
>> >A lot of folks I know (that did not listen to me and get W7)
>> >are almost in tears over Frankenstein.

> I'm not.

Someone has to! Then again, I have an ax to grind over
the trouble it has caused my customers. I have known some
of them for years. Weird when their kids glow up and have
kids of their own. I work for one extended family that has
four generations. You get close to them, especially when
they treat you like family. (Some have been known to
feed me!)

> I like Win7, especially on an HP tower.

W7 is okay. I wish it was faster and more stable, but it gets
the job done most of the time. XP and W7 are the two platforms
small business typically use. And they don't necessarily care
which platforms they run as long as they can get their Apps
to run on them. M$ has dominated the market in the application
wars. And, unfortunately, I see no sign of that changing
any time soon.

It helps with W7 (or any Windows platform for that matter)
to only install what you need and don't collect programs.
Plus turning them off at night.

>> >But M$ chose to stay the Frankenstein course.
> It is a unification of mobile and desktop operating systems. It is cost
> effective for MS.

Not when they can't sell the stuff because the buying public
completely rejects it. And from my limited programing
experience, I can say that having the two separate would
have been a lot easier on the programmers. I have done
dual things like that before, they are a nightmare to
keep track of.

And think about it. Windows Red took into account those that
do not have tablets and made Windows Red act like a desktop.
Simple common sense.

Frankenstein kept acting like you had a touch screen, even when you
did not. Metro is badly done and confusing, especially for mousers,
unlike iPad which is marvelously done and intuitively obvious.
(Metro has the antidote.) If M$ was really trying to save money,
they would have gone the Windows Red route and not have tried to
thrust Metro down nontablet users throats.

The market sure spanked M$ over Frankenstein. Trouble is, M$
wasn't the only one that got spanked. HP now offers W7 computers,
finally. Lenovo always did.

SOF preview, on the other hand mostly removes Metro for non-tablet
users, but not completely. But now the rumor is that Metro is
back. Goodness gracious.

Most of the time when I come across someone with Frankenstein,
I ask them why, and they say because the computer was so cheap
(Vendors have to sell them at fire sale prices as no one wants
Frankenstein). Then they say, I thought it couldn't be this bad.
Well guess what, you should have asked ... (I do my best to
make it look like W7, Classic Shell and all. But I can't make
it more stable and stop crashing. 8.1 helps the stability somewhat.)

But when I offer to upgrade to W7 (in the customer's minds, "not works
to works" is an upgrade -- they don't care about the revision number),
they tell me they are waiting for SOF. So we need to be ready.

On the bright side SOF preview seems a lot more snappy than
its Father. It was a nice touch to put decorations around
Metro programs. Now if they will de-Metro the desktop
completely and fix a bunch of bugs.

I do love <win><X> and wish W7 had it. I always press it before
I realize my mistake.

-T

[Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]]

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:15:09 -0700, T > wrote:

> On 03/14/2015 07:01 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> > On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:53:34 -0700, T > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> XP SP3 and Frankenstein (Windows) 8.1 had a lot of rewrites in them.
> >
> >
> > I hate to complain, but I need to tell you that I'm getting tired of
> > your calling Windows 8.1 Frankenstein. I don't agree with you that
> > it's terrible, but even if I did, it might have been mildly funny the
> > first time, but it's been a long time since it was.
> >
> > So please, knock it off.
> >
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> Probably not going to happen. The name fits like a glove.



That's your view. Not mine and not like that of most of us here. If
you're going to continue, welcome to my killfile.

[Chris S[_5_]]

"Ken Blake, MVP" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:15:09 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> On 03/14/2015 07:01 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>> > On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:53:34 -0700, T > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> XP SP3 and Frankenstein (Windows) 8.1 had a lot of rewrites in them.
>> >
>> >
>> > I hate to complain, but I need to tell you that I'm getting tired of
>> > your calling Windows 8.1 Frankenstein. I don't agree with you that
>> > it's terrible, but even if I did, it might have been mildly funny the
>> > first time, but it's been a long time since it was.
>> >
>> > So please, knock it off.
>> >
>>
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>> Probably not going to happen. The name fits like a glove.
>
>
>
> That's your view. Not mine and not like that of most of us here. If
> you're going to continue, welcome to my killfile.
>

*sigh* plus, plus.........

Chris

[Char Jackson]

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 18:10:49 -0700, T > wrote:

>On 03/14/2015 11:08 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>> I don't know why he keeps calling windows 8.1 a frankenstein os.
>> It is a way to bridge both the desktop and mobile devices. I don't see any
>> Linux distro doing that, considering the bloatedness of X11.
>
>Hi Grey Cloud,
>
>I call it Frankenstein because it is stitching a piece of
>one dissimilar thing onto another. I am not the first
>person that came up with that name for it. And it fits like
>a glove.
>
>A lot of folks I know (that did not listen to me and get W7)
>are almost in tears over Frankenstein.

IMO, it doesn't help that you're in near tears over it, as well. Your
hysteria fuels their fears, and it becomes a vicious circle. Just try to
settle down a bit and things will be fine.

[Zak W]

Stormin' Norman > wrote in
:

> You guys can do what you like, but I never think it is a good idea to
> try and censor what people say just because I don't like their thought
> process.
>

+1

[Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:04:11 +0000, Stormin' Norman
> wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 07:33:01 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP" > wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:15:09 -0700, T > wrote:
> >
> >> On 03/14/2015 07:01 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> >> > On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:53:34 -0700, T > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> XP SP3 and Frankenstein (Windows) 8.1 had a lot of rewrites in them.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I hate to complain, but I need to tell you that I'm getting tired of
> >> > your calling Windows 8.1 Frankenstein. I don't agree with you that
> >> > it's terrible, but even if I did, it might have been mildly funny the
> >> > first time, but it's been a long time since it was.
> >> >
> >> > So please, knock it off.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Hi Ken,
> >>
> >> Probably not going to happen. The name fits like a glove.
> >
> >
> >
> >That's your view. Not mine and not like that of most of us here. If
> >you're going to continue, welcome to my killfile.
>
> Personally, I do not think of W8 as Frankenstein but I do see it as Vista redux.


That's fine. You are welcome to your opinion. But even if you don't
like it, you don't go around calling it names, and I respect you for
that.


> It takes a lot of work and Classic Shell to bring the GUI back to a logical,
> business friendly interface.


That's fine, too. I don't agree with you, but I certainly think you're
entitled to your opinion.

As far as I'm concerned, it takes any of several programs, not
necessarily Classic Shell. In my opinion Classic Shell isn't even the
best of them; Start8 is. And it takes very little work.


> After getting two machines with 8.1 and giving
> them a fair evaluation period, I decided there were no real advantages to 8.1
> for my business so I wiped them and applied a W7 image.
>
> You guys can do what you like, but I never think it is a good idea to try and
> censor what people say just because I don't like their thought process.



"Censor"? I'm not censoring him or anyone else. I have no ability to
censor anyone. But I do have the ability to not read his vituperative
messages, and that's what I choose to do.

[GreyCloud[_2_]]

T wrote:

> On 03/14/2015 09:57 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>> It isn't... it is called bridging.
>
> Hi Grey Cloud,
>
> That is a nice term for ramming two technologies
> together that don't belong together.
>

How do you know that they can't belong together? Looks to me like it
working for a lot of people.

Consider the Gnome / Java bridge in Java Desktop for Solaris.
Or Cocoa / Python template bridge for OS X and Cocoa / Ruby template bridge
for OS X.

>> The reviewer probably doesn't even have a clue.
>
> "probably" means you didn't read it. The writer was dead on.
>
>> Calling it Frankenstein... well, then we can call Linux almost an OS too.
>
> You worked on that one, didn't you. Okay an "A" for effort,
> which was impressive.
>
> Linux is "obscure", not a kludge of technologies that don't
> belong together.
>
Linux as an os is one thing, but trying to kludge together X11 with any UNIX
has been eventually a failure. Sun tried to rectify it somewhat but it is
still a kludge. MS saw the problems from the beginning and just wrote their
own GUI from the ground up and does run faster despite what people say.
Apple bought out NextStep os that didn't use X11, and then refined the gui
for ease of use. The vast majority of professionals do not want to tinker
with their PCs so they buy a system that is out of the box ready to run.
These people have other things to do than waste their time trying to figure
out a problem on the PC.

Face it, X11 is getting long in the tooth and is in need of modernization.

>> After 20 years and still a small percentage of the market place. And it
>> is given away for free.
>>
>>> >
>>> >A lot of folks I know (that did not listen to me and get W7)
>>> >are almost in tears over Frankenstein.
>
>> I'm not.
>
> Someone has to! Then again, I have an ax to grind over
> the trouble it has caused my customers. I have known some
> of them for years. Weird when their kids glow up and have
> kids of their own. I work for one extended family that has
> four generations. You get close to them, especially when
> they treat you like family. (Some have been known to
> feed me!)
>
>> I like Win7, especially on an HP tower.
>
> W7 is okay. I wish it was faster and more stable, but it gets
> the job done most of the time.

Get the best hardware and Win7 is stable. The commodity junk hardware you
see at Wallmart will cause you problems no matter what os you install on it.
I paid a lot more for this HP tower than on any Apple.

> XP and W7 are the two platforms
> small business typically use. And they don't necessarily care
> which platforms they run as long as they can get their Apps
> to run on them. M$ has dominated the market in the application
> wars. And, unfortunately, I see no sign of that changing
> any time soon.

That is because they were there first along with IBM.
I remember the S100 bus days... no change took place until IBM entered into
the PC business and over night the S100 bus market went down the tubes. OTW,
they stagnated, which is happened now for over a decade. That is why Meg
Whitman is pushing to improve cpus and memory for faster speeds and
increased memory capacity in a smaller space. I hope they do make it.

>
> It helps with W7 (or any Windows platform for that matter)
> to only install what you need and don't collect programs.
> Plus turning them off at night.
>

I always turn off a computer at the end of the day no matter what os or
brand. It costs money to keep them up if you aren't using them.

Back in the 80s we had to keep the old vax 785 up. Once we shut it off for
a long weekend and came back and powered it back up... broken. The hardware
couldn't take the cold for some reason and then the heat it couldn't take
either... it had to run at 68 degrees F. But those days are over.

>>> >But M$ chose to stay the Frankenstein course.
>> It is a unification of mobile and desktop operating systems. It is cost
>> effective for MS.
>
> Not when they can't sell the stuff because the buying public
> completely rejects it.

They don't reject it. All I see are stores selling PCs and laptops with
win8.1 on them. Plus a few Apples. But I don't see any Linux PCs or
laptops for sale in the usual stores.

> And from my limited programing
> experience, I can say that having the two separate would
> have been a lot easier on the programmers.

Not at all. The programming differences are minor.
OS X is the heavy weight os for Apple and also Xcode supports both OS X and
iOS. iOS has a smaller foot print than OS X. Both run on top of 4.4BSD
UNIX, which runs on top of the micro kernel.

> I have done
> dual things like that before, they are a nightmare to
> keep track of.
>
> And think about it. Windows Red took into account those that
> do not have tablets and made Windows Red act like a desktop.
> Simple common sense.
>
> Frankenstein kept acting like you had a touch screen, even when you
> did not. Metro is badly done and confusing, especially for mousers,
> unlike iPad which is marvelously done and intuitively obvious.
> (Metro has the antidote.) If M$ was really trying to save money,
> they would have gone the Windows Red route and not have tried to
> thrust Metro down nontablet users throats.

They know that the industry is going deeper into mobile. If they don't keep
up, they'd start sliding downhill and they can't afford to do that.

>
> The market sure spanked M$ over Frankenstein. Trouble is, M$
> wasn't the only one that got spanked. HP now offers W7 computers,
> finally. Lenovo always did.

Those are usually offered on the smaller Tower based models. There really
is no need for a touch screen on those. But the tablets and mobile devices
all use touch screens and there are a lot of them on the market now.

>
> SOF preview, on the other hand mostly removes Metro for non-tablet
> users, but not completely. But now the rumor is that Metro is
> back. Goodness gracious.
>
> Most of the time when I come across someone with Frankenstein,
> I ask them why, and they say because the computer was so cheap
> (Vendors have to sell them at fire sale prices as no one wants
> Frankenstein). Then they say, I thought it couldn't be this bad.
> Well guess what, you should have asked ... (I do my best to
> make it look like W7, Classic Shell and all. But I can't make
> it more stable and stop crashing. 8.1 helps the stability somewhat.)
>
> But when I offer to upgrade to W7 (in the customer's minds, "not works
> to works" is an upgrade -- they don't care about the revision number),
> they tell me they are waiting for SOF. So we need to be ready.
>
> On the bright side SOF preview seems a lot more snappy than
> its Father. It was a nice touch to put decorations around
> Metro programs. Now if they will de-Metro the desktop
> completely and fix a bunch of bugs.
>
> I do love <win><X> and wish W7 had it. I always press it before
> I realize my mistake.
>

X11 is bloated and old. It does have its issues and isn't that easy to
correct a problem. MS knew that a long time ago.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?XwindowProtocolShouldBeStabbedAndBurnt

"People who defend X completely misunderstand how graphics work in the
modern world. (Modern, as in "developments in the last 25 years".)

More precisely, you need to differentiate the different and separate layers
of a graphics architecture:

The display driver -- something that simply pushes instructions to the
GPU and bitmap data to texture RAM.

The composition engine -- for composing lines, circles, polygons,
rendering fonts, etc.

The network protocol and GUI toolkit.

The 3D and physics engine.

All four parts are absolutely necessary and at the same time are built from
different principles and use completely different APIs.

X tries to meld all four into one steamingly monstrous pile of crud. While
this is a typical approach for a college sophomore term project like X,
trying to build a modern system capable of "supporting GTA3" on top of X is
simply laughable to anybody with any experience in the industry at all.

In short, if you defend X, you really do need to go educate yourself: it is
a sure-fire sign of misunderstanding how multimedia software works. --
IvanTkatchev"

[Gene E. Bloch[_2_]]

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:01:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:53:34 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> XP SP3 and Frankenstein (Windows) 8.1 had a lot of rewrites in them.
>
> I hate to complain, but I need to tell you that I'm getting tired of
> your calling Windows 8.1 Frankenstein. I don't agree with you that
> it's terrible, but even if I did, it might have been mildly funny the
> first time, but it's been a long time since it was.
>
> So please, knock it off.

Try my method: as soon as I see the word "Frankenstein" or the symbol
"M$", I press the spacebar. That takes me straightaway to the next
unread post.

I've been doing that for a long time, since before Todd became T - and
not just for T...

I even mentioned it in a post some time ago.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

[Gene E. Bloch[_2_]]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:04:11 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:

> I suspect the use of
> "Frankenstein" as a pseudonym will get old for him soon enough.

There's no evidence of that.

But I do read and enjoy his calmer posts.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

[T]

On 03/15/2015 07:33 AM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:15:09 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> On 03/14/2015 07:01 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>>> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:53:34 -0700, T > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> XP SP3 and Frankenstein (Windows) 8.1 had a lot of rewrites in them.
>>>
>>>
>>> I hate to complain, but I need to tell you that I'm getting tired of
>>> your calling Windows 8.1 Frankenstein. I don't agree with you that
>>> it's terrible, but even if I did, it might have been mildly funny the
>>> first time, but it's been a long time since it was.
>>>
>>> So please, knock it off.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>> Probably not going to happen. The name fits like a glove.
>
>
>
> That's your view. Not mine and not like that of most of us here. If
> you're going to continue, welcome to my killfile.
>

That is probably for the best Ken.

[T]

On 03/15/2015 02:21 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:04:11 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>
>> I suspect the use of
>> "Frankenstein" as a pseudonym will get old for him soon enough.
>
> There's no evidence of that.

:-)


> But I do read and enjoy his calmer posts.
>

Hi Gene,

I am thinking "Mary Shelley's kludge abomination". What do
think? Best to stick with Frankenstein?

:-)

-T

Some people have no sense of humor. Makes life a
burden to experience.

Me Calmer? Why, Why K-I-I-I-I-D-D-D-S-S these days!

[Zak W]

T > wrote in :

> On 03/15/2015 02:21 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:04:11 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>
>>> I suspect the use of
>>> "Frankenstein" as a pseudonym will get old for him soon enough.
>>
>> There's no evidence of that.
>
>:-)
>
>
>> But I do read and enjoy his calmer posts.
>>
>
> Hi Gene,
>
> I am thinking "Mary Shelley's kludge abomination". What do
> think? Best to stick with Frankenstein?

I like it!

[Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 19:18:47 +0000, Stormin' Norman
> wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 11:06:51 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP" > wrote:

> >"Censor"? I'm not censoring him or anyone else. I have no ability to
> >censor anyone. But I do have the ability to not read his vituperative
> >messages, and that's what I choose to do.
>
> You are correct, you have no official capacity here and are not capable of
> actually censoring anything here. I used a convenient word to convey a concept
> which is why I modified the word by writing "try and censor".
>
> The only other words I can think of to concisely convey the same concept would
> be rude and would also be unfair to you. Based upon what I have seen of your
> behavior, you are typically very polite and cordial.


Thanks for the kind words. I try.

[Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:19:12 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
> wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:01:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:53:34 -0700, T > wrote:
> >
> >> XP SP3 and Frankenstein (Windows) 8.1 had a lot of rewrites in them.
> >
> > I hate to complain, but I need to tell you that I'm getting tired of
> > your calling Windows 8.1 Frankenstein. I don't agree with you that
> > it's terrible, but even if I did, it might have been mildly funny the
> > first time, but it's been a long time since it was.
> >
> > So please, knock it off.
>
> Try my method: as soon as I see the word "Frankenstein" or the symbol
> "M$", I press the spacebar. That takes me straightaway to the next
> unread post.


Well, OK, if that's what you want to do. Not that what you do is
difficult, but why not use your killfile instead? It does the same
thing, but it's automatic and therefore easier.

[T]

Hi Guy,

You all remember when M$ canceled their newsgroups and
went to censored forums?

I kind of freaked out a bit. I have had to use them, found
that if you said anything critical of M$ that you got your
question pulled, and sometimes got outright lied to.

I also found out the hard way that they really weren't all
that helpful. They were their more to defend M$'s reputation
than to help others. That or they really suck at their
jobs. Perhaps both.

I took me forever to figure out how to configure the
Keep Alives on Terminal Server, and a helpful comment
on a blogger to find out what registry switches to
flip to make W7 serve file o a per-to-peer network
correctly. Those are the two that stick out in my mind.
I was obfuscated to outright lied to by M$'s forums.

And I will free share this information with anyone
that asks!

Which is why I like this non-M$ site because we can
talk freely and openly. But it does have its downside.
Free and Open also attracts brand name sycophants (or
tech evangelists, if you please). There goal is
to protect the reputation of their favorite vendor.

These sycophants are usually pretty easy to spot
as they love to condescend. And, they seldom help
anyone. Oh you said "virus" or "hub" instead of
"malware" or "switch". Gag me!

That being said, the open forum still trumps
being censored. But, you just have to avoid having
contacts with those who are not out to help others.
And by the way, if your are constantly digging
a hole under under someone else to build yourself
up, you will eventually fall down that same hole.

For those that do not like me gentle lampooning
various of their favorite vendors(s) and products,
just kill file me! And while yo are at it, get a
life! I am not after your conversation anyway. In
general, you do not provide any useful information
anyway!

I am after free and open exchange of ideas with
my colleagues/peers. I am here to help others and
to stand on the shoulders of giants as well. NOT
TO DEFEND TRADEMARKS!

Telling someone that the problems they are
experiencing is all them and the product they are
experiencing it with is perfect: SPIT!

By the way, I had to change my eMail to just
plain old "T" because of a huge snafu I had to
deal with on my eMail. I made it a danged easy
as I could so that everyone would still know
who I was. If anyone thought I was trying to
"trick" them, you are the worst detective on
the planet.

Now if you think Frankenstein has no problems,
try this:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=windows+8+sucks
Others an DEFINITELY having problems with it.
The point is not to denigrate other with problems,
the point is to share information and be helpful.

Son-of-Frankenstein is headed down the same path.
A lot of people are going to need a lot of help.
We here need to get ready to help those people.
Maybe M$ will pull a rabbit out of the
hat like W7. Hopefully so. If not, I refuse
to lie about it.

Only tell others you are not having a problem to
help them track down a problem. Not to defend
your favorite vendor.

As for the sycophants, go find some other group
or just kill file everyone else that are trying to
learn and help others.

Okay, I am done ranting.

Oh ya, M$ has no problems with its upgrades: SPIT!
Just do a GOOGLE search! Here you go!

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=problems+with+microsoft+updates

Okay, I am really done ranting now.

-T

[T]

On 03/15/2015 04:49 PM, Zak W wrote:
> T > wrote in :
>
>> On 03/15/2015 02:21 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:04:11 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>>
>>>> I suspect the use of
>>>> "Frankenstein" as a pseudonym will get old for him soon enough.
>>>
>>> There's no evidence of that.
>>
>> :-)
>>
>>
>>> But I do read and enjoy his calmer posts.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Gene,
>>
>> I am thinking "Mary Shelley's kludge abomination". What do
>> think? Best to stick with Frankenstein?
>
> I like it!
>

Has a nice rig to it. :-)

[T]

On 03/15/2015 08:44 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 18:10:49 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> On 03/14/2015 11:08 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>> I don't know why he keeps calling windows 8.1 a frankenstein os.
>>> It is a way to bridge both the desktop and mobile devices. I don't see any
>>> Linux distro doing that, considering the bloatedness of X11.
>>
>> Hi Grey Cloud,
>>
>> I call it Frankenstein because it is stitching a piece of
>> one dissimilar thing onto another. I am not the first
>> person that came up with that name for it. And it fits like
>> a glove.
>>
>> A lot of folks I know (that did not listen to me and get W7)
>> are almost in tears over Frankenstein.
>
> IMO, it doesn't help that you're in near tears over it, as well. Your
> hysteria fuels their fears, and it becomes a vicious circle. Just try to
> settle down a bit and things will be fine.
>


Hmmm. Are you done condescending? Make you feel superior
to others? Why don't you try helping others for a change
and avoid the snot? Keep digging holes under other
to make yourself fell taller and you will eventually
fall down that hole.

[G. Morgan[_7_]]

T wrote:

>Be careful mixing common language with technical language.
>Not everyone is speaking to you in technical language.


True. I don't know the technical level of the recipient. I may have even
called you out on hubs vs. switches since they are two very different devices.
Since MSFT has called Win 10 a "preview", I think that's pretty clear its not
a release. I wasn't trying to be mean about it, but when an official release
comes out it will be very different than what is out there now. It may "look"
the same, but previews are really a "skin" to show off and test user interest
in a particular feature. What is in the kernel is important to me.

[G. Morgan[_7_]]

Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:08:41 -0500, G. Morgan
> wrote:
>
>
>> I have it on good authority RTM will be in late June to mid July.
>
>
>My understanding is that it is scheduled for September (although it's
>little more than a rumor at this stage; schedules *do* get changed,
>and it can always be later than planned).
>
>What is your "good authority" that says otherwise? Please provide a
>link.

I can't provide a link. That's the time frame MSFT gave to HP employees and
contractors in internal documents. I agree with you that it can be changed
though. It depends on critical bugs that are unresolved at the time. It will
**** off many OEM's since they based product testing time and unit retail
sales based on a mid-summer RTM. They want time to test and develop drivers
for Christmas sales. September is cutting it close.

[G. Morgan[_7_]]

T wrote:

> http://pcsupport.about.com/od/windows-10/fl/windows-10.htm
> "While no official release date has been announced
> by Microsoft, Windows 10 is rumored to be released
> sometime in Q4 2015, possibly in October."


That would be inline with a June/July release to OEMs. Remember, M$FT does
not develop all the drivers for different devices. We are going to see USB
"C" coming this year, new SSD's, NFC devices, and the horrible implantation of
Intel's TPM chip that Win 8.1 does not play well with.

[G. Morgan[_7_]]

Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

>It's not a rule, but it's believed by many people. I completely
>disagree. I'm never in favor of waiting for a Service Pack. The point
>in time when a service pack is released is at the discretion of
>Microsoft and is completely arbitrary. Upgrades and fixes to any
>version of Windows are released when needed--once a month, normally,
>but more often when necessary. At some arbitrary point, Microsoft
>decides to roll up all those upgrades and fixes into one package and
>calls the result a service pack.


That's why RTM's are supposed to be beta testers, and report needed changes
BEFORE a retail release.

The RTM's *always* get leaked and people complain about bugs, forgetting that
testing on the RTM is still two months or so before a retail version goes up
for sale.

[Gene E. Bloch[_2_]]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 21:33:37 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:21:08 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch" >
> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:04:11 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>
>>> I suspect the use of
>>> "Frankenstein" as a pseudonym will get old for him soon enough.
>>
>>There's no evidence of that.
>>
>
> Well, now he knows it irritates some people, he might ride the poor horse until
> it drops from exhaustion. Kind of like me telling my wife I don't like lasagna
> with part-skim ricotta and or mozzarella cheese. I should have kept my ****ing
> mouth shut because she has insisted on using it for the past ten years. If I
> had not said anything, I am sure we would have gone back to artery clogging
> cheese nine years ago.
>
> Now, if I want to cheat on my wife, I go to the local Italian restaurant for
> lunch..... ;-)

I can't tactfully speak to your taste in lunch (JOKE!), but I can tell
you that T, alias Todd, has heard others' opinions about his inability
to avoid his prejudiced terminology for a long time, and has indicated
he has no intention of changing.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

[Gene E. Bloch[_2_]]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:34:25 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:19:12 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
> > wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:01:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:53:34 -0700, T > wrote:
[...]
>> Try my method: as soon as I see the word "Frankenstein" or the symbol
>> "M$", I press the spacebar. That takes me straightaway to the next
>> unread post.
>
> Well, OK, if that's what you want to do. Not that what you do is
> difficult, but why not use your killfile instead? It does the same
> thing, but it's automatic and therefore easier.

I don't think T's stuff rises to the level of needing a plonk. It's easy
enough to do what I said when I see that he's lost objectivity again.

But right now, I'm not so sure, given his new vendetta against Char
Jackson. He's getting a bit obsessive about it, IMO.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

[Char Jackson]

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:37:00 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch" >
wrote:

>On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:34:25 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:19:12 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:01:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:53:34 -0700, T > wrote:
>[...]
>>> Try my method: as soon as I see the word "Frankenstein" or the symbol
>>> "M$", I press the spacebar. That takes me straightaway to the next
>>> unread post.
>>
>> Well, OK, if that's what you want to do. Not that what you do is
>> difficult, but why not use your killfile instead? It does the same
>> thing, but it's automatic and therefore easier.
>
>I don't think T's stuff rises to the level of needing a plonk. It's easy
>enough to do what I said when I see that he's lost objectivity again.
>
>But right now, I'm not so sure, given his new vendetta against Char
>Jackson. He's getting a bit obsessive about it, IMO.

To be completely honest, I probably let his immaturity get the best of me.
The result was that I shifted away from responding to the content of his
posts and more toward the person doing the posting. That could be
uncomfortable for anyone.

[Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]]

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:38:34 +0000, Stormin' Norman
> wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:29:16 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch" >
> wrote:

> >I can't tactfully speak to your taste in lunch (JOKE!), but I can tell
> >you that T, alias Todd, has heard others' opinions about his inability
> >to avoid his prejudiced terminology for a long time, and has indicated
> >he has no intention of changing.
>
> Oh well, if we were all alike life would be very boring.


Nobody here wants us to be alike. But some of us do want us all to be
polite and not vituperative in our language.

[Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]]

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:37:00 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
> wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:34:25 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:19:12 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:01:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:53:34 -0700, T > wrote:
> [...]
> >> Try my method: as soon as I see the word "Frankenstein" or the symbol
> >> "M$", I press the spacebar. That takes me straightaway to the next
> >> unread post.
> >
> > Well, OK, if that's what you want to do. Not that what you do is
> > difficult, but why not use your killfile instead? It does the same
> > thing, but it's automatic and therefore easier.
>
> I don't think T's stuff rises to the level of needing a plonk. It's easy
> enough to do what I said when I see that he's lost objectivity again.
>
> But right now, I'm not so sure, given his new vendetta against Char
> Jackson. He's getting a bit obsessive about it, IMO.


We all have different views of how bad someone is. If you don't think
he needs a plonk, that's fine; it's your choice.

On the other hand, what you do is very close to what I do. We just do
it in different ways.

But I think he needs a plonk. He's gone here.

[Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]]

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 16:11:15 -0500, Char Jackson >
wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:37:00 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch" >
> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:34:25 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:19:12 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:01:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:53:34 -0700, T > wrote:
> >[...]
> >>> Try my method: as soon as I see the word "Frankenstein" or the symbol
> >>> "M$", I press the spacebar. That takes me straightaway to the next
> >>> unread post.
> >>
> >> Well, OK, if that's what you want to do. Not that what you do is
> >> difficult, but why not use your killfile instead? It does the same
> >> thing, but it's automatic and therefore easier.
> >
> >I don't think T's stuff rises to the level of needing a plonk. It's easy
> >enough to do what I said when I see that he's lost objectivity again.
> >
> >But right now, I'm not so sure, given his new vendetta against Char
> >Jackson. He's getting a bit obsessive about it, IMO.
>
> To be completely honest, I probably let his immaturity get the best of me.
> The result was that I shifted away from responding to the content of his
> posts and more toward the person doing the posting. That could be
> uncomfortable for anyone.


"Immaturity" is a good word for him. I of course don't know for sure,
but my guess is that he's a teenager.

And if he's not a teenager, he certainly acts like one.

[R. C. White]

Hi, G.

> That's why RTM's are supposed to be beta testers,...

Has that acronym changed? My understanding is that RTM means "Released to
Manufacturing". In other words, that is the final code that gets pressed
into billions of DVDs and shipped. Any bugs found post-RTM have to waif for
an update (or Service Pack) for correction. Nowadays, it also becomes RTW,
when Released To The Web for authorized users to download.

Or are those terms outdated already? You may have been thinking of the
"Release Candidate", which MSFT hopes will be RTM very soon.

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2012 (Build 16.4.3528.0331) in Win8.1 Pro w/Media Center


"G. Morgan" wrote in message
...

Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

>It's not a rule, but it's believed by many people. I completely
>disagree. I'm never in favor of waiting for a Service Pack. The point
>in time when a service pack is released is at the discretion of
>Microsoft and is completely arbitrary. Upgrades and fixes to any
>version of Windows are released when needed--once a month, normally,
>but more often when necessary. At some arbitrary point, Microsoft
>decides to roll up all those upgrades and fixes into one package and
>calls the result a service pack.


That's why RTM's are supposed to be beta testers, and report needed changes
BEFORE a retail release.

The RTM's *always* get leaked and people complain about bugs, forgetting
that
testing on the RTM is still two months or so before a retail version goes up
for sale.

[T]

On 03/16/2015 10:24 AM, G. Morgan wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>> Be careful mixing common language with technical language.
>> Not everyone is speaking to you in technical language.
>
>
> True. I don't know the technical level of the recipient. I may have even
> called you out on hubs vs. switches since they are two very different devices.
> Since MSFT has called Win 10 a "preview", I think that's pretty clear its not
> a release. I wasn't trying to be mean about it, but when an official release
> comes out it will be very different than what is out there now. It may "look"
> the same, but previews are really a "skin" to show off and test user interest
> in a particular feature. What is in the kernel is important to me.
>
>

Hi G.,

I was just making conversation. Please forgive me if I came
off as preachy. (I have been CRABBY lately and ...)

-T

[T]

On 03/15/2015 01:36 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>> On 03/14/2015 09:57 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>> It isn't... it is called bridging.
>>
>> Hi Grey Cloud,
>>
>> That is a nice term for ramming two technologies
>> together that don't belong together.
>>
>
> How do you know that they can't belong together? Looks to me like it
> working for a lot of people.

Hi Grey Cloud,

Go a Google search on "Windows Sucks". Even my customers
with touch screens don't like it.

But that you like it is a good sign. What exactly did you do
to yours and and your customers to get them to like it?
(I do my best to make it look like W7). Any tips to help
my customers will be greatly appreciated. (I have to leave mine
the hard way, so I can see what my customers see.)

>
> Consider the Gnome / Java bridge in Java Desktop for Solaris.
> Or Cocoa / Python template bridge for OS X and Cocoa / Ruby template bridge
> for OS X.

Not understanding your point.

>
[i]
>>
> Linux as an os is one thing, but trying to kludge together X11 with any UNIX
> has been eventually a failure.

I would say it is still in the "pain in the neck" phase.

> Sun tried to rectify it somewhat but it is
> still a kludge.

Speaking of Sun, I used X Terminals with X11 on Solaris
about 22 years ago. It worked very nicely. But, have
not had the same experience since then.

ssh -l todd -t -X 192.168.255.185 /usr/bin/firefox -no-remote

sort of works, but you need a ton of bandwidth and processor
power. And, you have to hold your mouth correctly. (I love
xrdp.org for remote maintenance of a server, which ends runs
the thing.)


> MS saw the problems from the beginning and just wrote their
> own GUI from the ground up and does run faster despite what people say.
> Apple bought out NextStep os that didn't use X11, and then refined the gui
> for ease of use.

M$ doesn't allow you to run (float) programs on other computers
across a network. M$ may have had a point in trying to simplify
things.

Have you ever got into a discussion on who is the client and who is
the server with X11? Chuckle. Tempers can fly.

> The vast majority of professionals do not want to tinker
> with their PCs so they buy a system that is out of the box ready to run.

I would be the exception. I have to set it up myself and get it
tricked out the way I like. It is also good training.

> These people have other things to do than waste their time trying to figure
> out a problem on the PC.
>
> Face it, X11 is getting long in the tooth and is in need of modernization.

1+

I would add that nVidia needs to do a better job of integrating with
it too!


>> W7 is okay. I wish it was faster and more stable, but it gets
>> the job done most of the time.
>
> Get the best hardware and Win7 is stable. The commodity junk hardware you
> see at Wallmart will cause you problems no matter what os you install on it.
> I paid a lot more for this HP tower than on any Apple.

That is partially true. Take one of those unstable on
w7 computers and run a Fedora Xfce live CD on it. Suddenly
it is so stable it is boiler plate.

And the custom W7 computer I put together do not have anywhere
the problems el-cheap-o computers have, especially with the
automatic roll backs

>> M$ has dominated the market in the application
>> wars. And, unfortunately, I see no sign of that changing
>> any time soon.
>
> That is because they were there first along with IBM.

And M$ had/has some brilliant marketing folks. They catered
straight to business.

> Back in the 80s we had to keep the old vax 785 up. Once we shut it off for
> a long weekend and came back and powered it back up... broken. The hardware
> couldn't take the cold for some reason and then the heat it couldn't take
> either... it had to run at 68 degrees F. But those days are over.

And the idiot power supplies surged, burn things out
that were weak.

>
> They don't reject it. All I see are stores selling PCs and laptops with
> win8.1 on them. Plus a few Apples. But I don't see any Linux PCs or
> laptops for sale in the usual stores.

That is because M$ is playing hard ball with their
resellers. It is a bad situation.

Here are some links on declining sales due to Frankie.

https://duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2013%2F 04%2F10%2Fwindows-8-sales_n_3055157.html

https://duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.escapistmagazine.com%2Fnews% 2Fview%2F123205-Windows-8-Tablets-Blamed-For-Record-Drop-In-PC-Sales

https://duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnet.com%2Fnews%2Fwindows-8-launches-and-pc-sales-drop-21-percent-hmm%2F%23!

"Following the debut of Windows 8, U.S. PC sales dropped by
more than a fifth versus sales from a year ago. This is
not a promising sign."

Most of the time when I find someone with Frankenstein
and zero (and I literally mean that) like it, it is because
they didn't ask me where to buy a Windows 7 machine.

>
>> And from my limited programing
>> experience, I can say that having the two separate would
>> have been a lot easier on the programmers.
>
> Not at all. The programming differences are minor.
> OS X is the heavy weight os for Apple and also Xcode supports both OS X and
> iOS. iOS has a smaller foot print than OS X. Both run on top of 4.4BSD
> UNIX, which runs on top of the micro kernel.

You can not run a iPad app on OSx. This is what I am referring to.

It would be sweet if there was a compiler that would
spit out Linux, OSx, and M$ at the same time. I think
I heard that Qt was trying to do that, but my memory
is not very good on that.

And the Metro apps get bitched about by a lot of their users.
I personally hate the things, but I want a business
grade workstation, not a tablet.


>
> They know that the industry is going deeper into mobile. If they don't keep
> up, they'd start sliding downhill and they can't afford to do that.

Agreed. I think they should have just gone the two separate
products route like Apple did.

-T

And, I would love some improvements in X too.

[T]

On 03/15/2015 08:04 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
> Personally, I do not think of W8 as Frankenstein but I do see it as Vista redux.

Hi Stormin',

Interesting way of looking at it. M$ was/is being insensitive of their
users need in both instances. If they had not won the applications
wars, they would be in real trouble.

>
> It takes a lot of work and Classic Shell to bring the GUI back to a logical,
> business friendly interface. After getting two machines with 8.1 and giving
> them a fair evaluation period, I decided there were no real advantages to 8.1
> for my business so I wiped them and applied a W7 image.

I had a small business customer that did not ask me and just went out
and bought some Frankenstein computer on his own. They were
on fire sale prices. When he presented them to me, I told him
he wasn't going to like it. He told me it can be that bad.
Chuckle! I make him promise not to blame me before I started.

When they started trying to jam sp1 on and everything went to hell
he called up Dell and returned them. He couldn't take it any more.
If it wasn't one thing, it was another. I have forgotten
what I had to do to his M$ Server to get it to network, but
it was obscure.

Then he went to Costco and bought a bunch of W7 workstation (also
from Dell). He hasn't had a problem since. And we are still on
speaking terms. He kept his promise. Sometimes you get blamed
for these things because your are physically closer.

>
> You guys can do what you like, but I never think it is a good idea to try and
> censor what people say just because I don't like their thought process.

Sensor is exactly what it is. (I know, it doesn't really work, but
they try anyway.) And worse, you have a hard time trusting
what comes out of their mouths. Is their advice real or just
their agenda? M$ not having update issues takes the cake.

> Now, if someone is being abusive towards others or trolling, then the bit bucket
> is the perfect place for them.

Worry when others with hold information or are rude and condescending
to others. Not when they are lampoon a crappy product.

> T seems like a reasonable sort of guy and he certainly brings a different,
> not-a-MS-sycophant perspective to the group. I suspect the use of
> "Frankenstein" as a pseudonym will get old for him soon enough.

It is such a good description of the mistakes that were made
that it doesn't seem to be wearing off. I even call it
Frankenstein to M$'s face when I have to call them. They
take it with a grain of salt. (At least I am not swearing
at them. Probably the nicest guy they had on the phone all
day. I make sure they know I am not holding them personally
responsible and do appreciate their help.)

> Let's face it,
> very few things or people improve as a result of adoration, it is constructive
> criticism and profit which drives innovation and improvement.
>
> All just my humble opinions.

Thank you for the kind words.

-T

[T]

On 03/16/2015 01:29 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 21:33:37 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:21:08 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:04:11 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>>
>>>> I suspect the use of
>>>> "Frankenstein" as a pseudonym will get old for him soon enough.
>>>
>>> There's no evidence of that.
>>>
>>
>> Well, now he knows it irritates some people, he might ride the poor horse until
>> it drops from exhaustion. Kind of like me telling my wife I don't like lasagna
>> with part-skim ricotta and or mozzarella cheese. I should have kept my ****ing
>> mouth shut because she has insisted on using it for the past ten years. If I
>> had not said anything, I am sure we would have gone back to artery clogging
>> cheese nine years ago.
>>
>> Now, if I want to cheat on my wife, I go to the local Italian restaurant for
>> lunch..... ;-)
>
> I can't tactfully speak to your taste in lunch (JOKE!), but I can tell
> you that T, alias Todd, has heard others' opinions about his inability
> to avoid his prejudiced terminology for a long time, and has indicated
> he has no intention of changing.
>

He is correct.

"prejudiced terminology", oh brother.

[T]

On 03/16/2015 04:45 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:38:34 +0000, Stormin' Norman
> > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:29:16 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch" >
>> wrote:
>
>>> I can't tactfully speak to your taste in lunch (JOKE!), but I can tell
>>> you that T, alias Todd, has heard others' opinions about his inability
>>> to avoid his prejudiced terminology for a long time, and has indicated
>>> he has no intention of changing.
>>
>> Oh well, if we were all alike life would be very boring.
>
>
> Nobody here wants us to be alike. But some of us do want us all to be
> polite and not vituperative in our language.
>

It is just fine to lampoon crappy products. It is not
fine to withhold information because it offends your
favorite vendor, or to be rude and condescending to
others (not you).

[T]

On 03/16/2015 05:34 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 16:45:40 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP" > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:38:34 +0000, Stormin' Norman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:29:16 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch" >
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> I can't tactfully speak to your taste in lunch (JOKE!), but I can tell
>>>> you that T, alias Todd, has heard others' opinions about his inability
>>>> to avoid his prejudiced terminology for a long time, and has indicated
>>>> he has no intention of changing.
>>>
>>> Oh well, if we were all alike life would be very boring.
>>
>>
>> Nobody here wants us to be alike. But some of us do want us all to be
>> polite and not vituperative in our language.
>
> That is FAR too controlling for my tastes. Who would be arbiter of politeness
> and vituperativeness? What if "T" were the arbiter,

Me "Arbitrator?" Now that would be interesting. Everyone
would be required to call me "The Dude!"

> I doubt you would like that
> anymore than he would want you to be the arbiter.
>
> No, I would rather have true freedom of expression than moderated, censored or
> politically correct speech that adheres to any individual's or group's concept
> of propriety.
>
> General Colin Powell said:
>
> "The First Amendment exists to insure that freedom of speech and expression
> applies not just to that with which we agree or disagree, but also that which we
> find outrageous."
>
> One of my favorite, modern aphorisms.

1+

I put this county's uniform on and put my life on hte
table for that concept. I may not agree with what
you say, but will defend your right to say it.

-T (A.K.A. "The Dude!")


Wait, why am I wring you? Dang. I forgot again. I hate
it when that happens. YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN! I have a
lawn? Is Clark still in the Navy? :-)

[T]

On 03/16/2015 06:53 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 00:46:52 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> Hi Guy,
>>
>> You all remember when M$ canceled their newsgroups and
>> went to censored forums?
>>
>> I kind of freaked out a bit. I have had to use them, found
>> that if you said anything critical of M$ that you got your
>> question pulled, and sometimes got outright lied to.
>
> Two pearls of wisdom for you "T". I wish I had learned and taken them to heart
> while a child.
>
>
> “Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more
> difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.�
>
> -Benjamin Franklin
>
>
> "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."
>
> -Benjamin Franklin
>


All true. An undisciplined tough can really get you into
trouble.

-T

“Always acknowledge a fault. This will throw those in authority
off their guard and give you an opportunity to commit more.�
― Mark Twain

[Zak W]

Stormin' Norman > wrote in
:

> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 16:45:40 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
> > wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:38:34 +0000, Stormin' Norman
> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:29:16 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
>>> > wrote:
>>
>>> >I can't tactfully speak to your taste in lunch (JOKE!), but I can
>>> >tell you that T, alias Todd, has heard others' opinions about his
>>> >inability to avoid his prejudiced terminology for a long time, and
>>> >has indicated he has no intention of changing.
>>>
>>> Oh well, if we were all alike life would be very boring.
>>
>>
>>Nobody here wants us to be alike. But some of us do want us all to be
>>polite and not vituperative in our language.
>
> That is FAR too controlling for my tastes. Who would be arbiter of
> politeness and vituperativeness? What if "T" were the arbiter, I
> doubt you would like that anymore than he would want you to be the
> arbiter.
>
> No, I would rather have true freedom of expression than moderated,
> censored or politically correct speech that adheres to any
> individual's or group's concept of propriety.
>
> General Colin Powell said:
>
> "The First Amendment exists to insure that freedom of speech and
> expression applies not just to that with which we agree or disagree,
> but also that which we find outrageous."
>
> One of my favorite, modern aphorisms.

+1 on that

[T]

On 03/16/2015 04:50 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>> >To be completely honest, I probably let his immaturity get the best of me.
>> >The result was that I shifted away from responding to the content of his
>> >posts and more toward the person doing the posting. That could be
>> >uncomfortable for anyone.
>
> "Immaturity" is a good word for him. I of course don't know for sure,
> but my guess is that he's a teenager.
>
> And if he's not a teenager, he certainly acts like one.


Did the condescending make you two feel better?

[SC Tom[_3_]]

"T" > wrote in message ...
> On 03/15/2015 08:04 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>> Personally, I do not think of W8 as Frankenstein but I do see it as Vista
>> redux.
>
> Hi Stormin',
>
> Interesting way of looking at it. M$ was/is being insensitive of their
> users need in both instances. If they had not won the applications
> wars, they would be in real trouble.
>
>>
>> It takes a lot of work and Classic Shell to bring the GUI back to a
>> logical,
>> business friendly interface. After getting two machines with 8.1 and
>> giving
>> them a fair evaluation period, I decided there were no real advantages to
>> 8.1
>> for my business so I wiped them and applied a W7 image.
>
> I had a small business customer that did not ask me and just went out
> and bought some Frankenstein computer on his own. They were
> on fire sale prices. When he presented them to me, I told him
> he wasn't going to like it. He told me it can be that bad.
> Chuckle! I make him promise not to blame me before I started.


If you tell someone they're not going to like it, they probably won't,
whether it's any good or not (and not just concerning operating systems).
You've already prejudiced them with how YOU feel instead of letting them
decide for themselves.
I remember when XP first came out. One of the guys at work jumped right on
it, and would come in daily with horror stories of having to restore to his
old OS (I think he had 95, but it may have been ME, like I had) a few times
before getting it stable (his backups were on tape, so you can imagine how
much fun THAT was). He said "XP" stood for "X-tra Painful" and wasn't too
sure if he was going to keep it or not. When I decided to take the plunge, I
was already a little leery of it. I made sure I had a recent backup of my
system, then dove right in. In a relatively short time, I had it up and
running with only one problem- an EIDE driver that hadn't been updated by my
MB manufacturer yet (made the whole system run painfully slow). Once I found
that driver update, it ran like a champ. I couldn't understand why he had so
many problems, but I went in thinking I would have the same nightmare, just
from his experience. I was naturally pleasantly surprised when mine went
quite smoothly. But I was already biased against it, just on the word of one
person. Go figure :-)


>
> When they started trying to jam sp1 on and everything went to hell
> he called up Dell and returned them. He couldn't take it any more.
> If it wasn't one thing, it was another. I have forgotten
> what I had to do to his M$ Server to get it to network, but
> it was obscure.
>
> Then he went to Costco and bought a bunch of W7 workstation (also
> from Dell). He hasn't had a problem since. And we are still on
> speaking terms. He kept his promise. Sometimes you get blamed
> for these things because your are physically closer.
>
>>
>> You guys can do what you like, but I never think it is a good idea to try
>> and
>> censor what people say just because I don't like their thought process.
>
> Sensor is exactly what it is. (I know, it doesn't really work, but
> they try anyway.) And worse, you have a hard time trusting
> what comes out of their mouths. Is their advice real or just
> their agenda? M$ not having update issues takes the cake.
>
>> Now, if someone is being abusive towards others or trolling, then the bit
>> bucket
>> is the perfect place for them.
>
> Worry when others with hold information or are rude and condescending
> to others. Not when they are lampoon a crappy product.
>
>> T seems like a reasonable sort of guy and he certainly brings a
>> different,
>> not-a-MS-sycophant perspective to the group. I suspect the use of
>> "Frankenstein" as a pseudonym will get old for him soon enough.
>
> It is such a good description of the mistakes that were made
> that it doesn't seem to be wearing off. I even call it
> Frankenstein to M$'s face when I have to call them. They
> take it with a grain of salt. (At least I am not swearing
> at them. Probably the nicest guy they had on the phone all
> day. I make sure they know I am not holding them personally
> responsible and do appreciate their help.)
>
>> Let's face it,
>> very few things or people improve as a result of adoration, it is
>> constructive
>> criticism and profit which drives innovation and improvement.
>>
>> All just my humble opinions.
>
> Thank you for the kind words.
>
> -T
>

[Slimer]

On 2015-03-17 1:51 AM, T wrote:
> On 03/15/2015 01:36 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/14/2015 09:57 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>>> It isn't... it is called bridging.
>>>
>>> Hi Grey Cloud,
>>>
>>> That is a nice term for ramming two technologies
>>> together that don't belong together.
>>>
>>
>> How do you know that they can't belong together? Looks to me like it
>> working for a lot of people.
>
> Hi Grey Cloud,
>
> Go a Google search on "Windows Sucks". Even my customers
> with touch screens don't like it.
>
> But that you like it is a good sign. What exactly did you do
> to yours and and your customers to get them to like it?
> (I do my best to make it look like W7). Any tips to help
> my customers will be greatly appreciated. (I have to leave mine
> the hard way, so I can see what my customers see.)

I sincerely doubt that you actually care what he has to say. You have an
agenda here and it is to spread lies about Linux's stability at the
expense of Windows. Pretending to be a "good guy" seems to be part of
your strategy.
[i]
>>> W7 is okay. I wish it was faster and more stable, but it gets
>>> the job done most of the time.
>>
>> Get the best hardware and Win7 is stable. The commodity junk hardware
>> you
>> see at Wallmart will cause you problems no matter what os you install
>> on it.
>> I paid a lot more for this HP tower than on any Apple.
>
> That is partially true. Take one of those unstable on
> w7 computers and run a Fedora Xfce live CD on it. Suddenly
> it is so stable it is boiler plate.
>
> And the custom W7 computer I put together do not have anywhere
> the problems el-cheap-o computers have, especially with the
> automatic roll backs

I'm sure that it has NOTHING at all to do with the fact that Fedora is a
clean install whereas the "unstable" Windows machine was packed with
third-party software. I'm sure that a clean installation of Windows 7
wouldn't have resulted in the same thing.

As for Fedora, it might be stable for some things but it isn't all too
perfect. Many people, myself included, had to suffer through the
distribution's insistence that Mozilla applications would load three
times slower than their Windows counterparts and even the same software
in other distros.

--
Slimer
OpenMedia, GreenPeace Supporter & SPCA Paw Partner
Encrypt.

[Slimer]

On 2015-03-17 2:08 AM, T wrote:
> On 03/15/2015 08:04 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>> Personally, I do not think of W8 as Frankenstein but I do see it as
>> Vista redux.
>
> Hi Stormin',
>
> Interesting way of looking at it. M$ was/is being insensitive of their
> users need in both instances. If they had not won the applications
> wars, they would be in real trouble.

Another lie. While some people might be afraid of Windows 8 and not like
it, many actually liked the change and especially appreciated it on
their tablets and touchscreen desktops and laptops. If you stopped being
such a judgmental **** for a bit, you might be able to acknowledge the
fact that many people have an opinion that differs significantly from
the one that you think they _should_ have.

>> It takes a lot of work and Classic Shell to bring the GUI back to a
>> logical,
>> business friendly interface. After getting two machines with 8.1 and
>> giving
>> them a fair evaluation period, I decided there were no real advantages
>> to 8.1
>> for my business so I wiped them and applied a W7 image.
>
> I had a small business customer that did not ask me and just went out
> and bought some Frankenstein computer on his own. They were
> on fire sale prices. When he presented them to me, I told him
> he wasn't going to like it. He told me it can be that bad.
> Chuckle! I make him promise not to blame me before I started.
>
> When they started trying to jam sp1 on and everything went to hell
> he called up Dell and returned them. He couldn't take it any more.
> If it wasn't one thing, it was another. I have forgotten
> what I had to do to his M$ Server to get it to network, but
> it was obscure.
>
> Then he went to Costco and bought a bunch of W7 workstation (also
> from Dell). He hasn't had a problem since. And we are still on
> speaking terms. He kept his promise. Sometimes you get blamed
> for these things because your are physically closer.

The _horror_ of having a Windows 8 computer and being able to run every
application under the sun in a slightly different interface. It might be
INCREDIBLY PAINFUL to have to take about thirty seconds to set the
operating system to boot to desktop. You're probably the worst employee
on the planet if you'd rather spend your time complaining and bitching
about an operating system rather than customizing it to suit the needs
of your customers. It's a surprise that you're still employed.

--
Slimer
OpenMedia, GreenPeace Supporter & SPCA Paw Partner
Encrypt.

[GreyCloud[_2_]]

T wrote:

> On 03/15/2015 01:36 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/14/2015 09:57 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>>> It isn't... it is called bridging.
>>>
>>> Hi Grey Cloud,
>>>
>>> That is a nice term for ramming two technologies
>>> together that don't belong together.
>>>
>>
>> How do you know that they can't belong together? Looks to me like it
>> working for a lot of people.
>
> Hi Grey Cloud,
>
> Go a Google search on "Windows Sucks". Even my customers
> with touch screens don't like it.
>

Yet, others do like it. Depends on what business you are in.
Nursing homes have used touch screens before win8 even came out.
They have their clipboard at hand and a pencil. They used the eraser end to
touch the screen for selections, all in touch mode, to record that certain
procedures were followed for a client. A lot easier than typing it in when
that is all that is needed and then move on down the hall to take care of
someone. Most of these places are still understaffed.

> But that you like it is a good sign. What exactly did you do
> to yours and and your customers to get them to like it?
> (I do my best to make it look like W7). Any tips to help
> my customers will be greatly appreciated. (I have to leave mine
> the hard way, so I can see what my customers see.)
>
Doctors sure like it on tablets that can by synced up to a database.

>>
>> Consider the Gnome / Java bridge in Java Desktop for Solaris.
>> Or Cocoa / Python template bridge for OS X and Cocoa / Ruby template
>> bridge for OS X.
>
> Not understanding your point.
>

They bridge one technology to another technology.
On Suns os, the java desktop adapts to the Gnome wm.
Its fast and responsive, but neither of the two are really interdependent on
each other without that bridge.

>>
> [i]
>>>
>> Linux as an os is one thing, but trying to kludge together X11 with any
>> UNIX has been eventually a failure.
>
> I would say it is still in the "pain in the neck" phase.
>

It's been over 20 years and even Sun has finally dumped it on their servers.
They used to use CDE desktop, but it is tied to X11 and just eats up a lot
of resources. It's also a major pain to program for.

>> Sun tried to rectify it somewhat but it is
>> still a kludge.
>
> Speaking of Sun, I used X Terminals with X11 on Solaris
> about 22 years ago. It worked very nicely. But, have
> not had the same experience since then.

The X terminals, now known as thin clients, are now far and few between.
They found it a lot easier to just use a windows PC for doing any gui type
admining.

>
> ssh -l todd -t -X 192.168.255.185 /usr/bin/firefox -no-remote
>
> sort of works, but you need a ton of bandwidth and processor
> power. And, you have to hold your mouth correctly. (I love
> xrdp.org for remote maintenance of a server, which ends runs
> the thing.)
>

That's the problem... resource hog, and not really needed.

>
>> MS saw the problems from the beginning and just wrote their
>> own GUI from the ground up and does run faster despite what people say.
>> Apple bought out NextStep os that didn't use X11, and then refined the
>> gui for ease of use.
>
> M$ doesn't allow you to run (float) programs on other computers
> across a network. M$ may have had a point in trying to simplify
> things.
>

I believe that the designer of VMS, David Cutler, knew about these problems
and he is after all the father of Win NT. I read a blog spot on Cutler
where they pointed out this bit of trivia... V->W.. M->N.. S->T.
Like in the movie 2001 with HAL... IBM.
Anyway, he knows how it should work and you don't need to float another
program on another computer. OS X allows it using Xgrid, but even I never
bothered with that aspect.

> Have you ever got into a discussion on who is the client and who is
> the server with X11? Chuckle. Tempers can fly.
>

Ah, don't even bring up that rats nest of a problem.

>> The vast majority of professionals do not want to tinker
>> with their PCs so they buy a system that is out of the box ready to run.
>
> I would be the exception. I have to set it up myself and get it
> tricked out the way I like. It is also good training.
>

For your situation, yes. For the majority, no.

>> These people have other things to do than waste their time trying to
>> figure out a problem on the PC.
>>
>> Face it, X11 is getting long in the tooth and is in need of
>> modernization.
>
> 1+
>
> I would add that nVidia needs to do a better job of integrating with
> it too!
>

They really don't want to waste the money on something that is getting old
and obsolete. Why should they, unless the linux communitiy en masse cough
up with the money and pay them to do it.

>
>>> W7 is okay. I wish it was faster and more stable, but it gets
>>> the job done most of the time.
>>
>> Get the best hardware and Win7 is stable. The commodity junk hardware
>> you see at Wallmart will cause you problems no matter what os you install
>> on it. I paid a lot more for this HP tower than on any Apple.
>
> That is partially true. Take one of those unstable on
> w7 computers and run a Fedora Xfce live CD on it. Suddenly
> it is so stable it is boiler plate.

Then the os is eventually shutdown at the end of the day.
It is the machine state and what state it is in that determines how long it
will stay stable. Leave it on for a long time and that state will change
and usually for the worse.

>
> And the custom W7 computer I put together do not have anywhere
> the problems el-cheap-o computers have, especially with the
> automatic roll backs
>
>>> M$ has dominated the market in the application
>>> wars. And, unfortunately, I see no sign of that changing
>>> any time soon.
>>
>> That is because they were there first along with IBM.
>
> And M$ had/has some brilliant marketing folks. They catered
> straight to business.
>

That was their original intent. Business. This is where Apple could take
the lead by designing a better base for business. There isn't any SQL
server for OS X. You can get MySQL but that will not address all of big
businesses needs like SQL server can do like MS has done.

>> Back in the 80s we had to keep the old vax 785 up. Once we shut it off
>> for
>> a long weekend and came back and powered it back up... broken. The
>> hardware couldn't take the cold for some reason and then the heat it
>> couldn't take
>> either... it had to run at 68 degrees F. But those days are over.
>
> And the idiot power supplies surged, burn things out
> that were weak.
>

It wasn't the power supplies in these big machines that croaked... it was
the temperature change on some weak chip that brought it down.

>>
>> They don't reject it. All I see are stores selling PCs and laptops with
>> win8.1 on them. Plus a few Apples. But I don't see any Linux PCs or
>> laptops for sale in the usual stores.
>
> That is because M$ is playing hard ball with their
> resellers. It is a bad situation.

I've never seen any do that. Dell tried to sell a linux based laptop and PC
and it never went anywhere. Even IBM is having to take a loss on trying to
market Linux on their big machines. Many see the linux brand as the kiss of
death to a company.

>
> Here are some links on declining sales due to Frankie.
>
>
https://duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2013%2F 04%2F10%2Fwindows-8-
sales_n_3055157.html
>
>
https://duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.escapistmagazine.com%2Fnews% 2Fview%2F123205-
Windows-8-Tablets-Blamed-For-Record-Drop-In-PC-Sales
>
>
https://duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnet.com%2Fnews%2Fwindows-8-
launches-and-pc-sales-drop-21-percent-hmm%2F%23!
>
> "Following the debut of Windows 8, U.S. PC sales dropped by
> more than a fifth versus sales from a year ago. This is
> not a promising sign."
>
> Most of the time when I find someone with Frankenstein
> and zero (and I literally mean that) like it, it is because
> they didn't ask me where to buy a Windows 7 machine.
>

People are overlooking one major fact here... there are 93million people
that do not have enough money to afford any new PC in the US.
These same 93million people are on food stamps.
If they all had decent paying jobs those figures would easily change.

>>
>>> And from my limited programing
>>> experience, I can say that having the two separate would
>>> have been a lot easier on the programmers.
>>
>> Not at all. The programming differences are minor.
>> OS X is the heavy weight os for Apple and also Xcode supports both OS X
>> and
>> iOS. iOS has a smaller foot print than OS X. Both run on top of 4.4BSD
>> UNIX, which runs on top of the micro kernel.
>
> You can not run a iPad app on OSx. This is what I am referring to.
>

Yes, you can. You have to have Xcode installed. Because that's where the
iPhone app is developed in the first place. They use the iPhone simulator
to test run their apps.

> It would be sweet if there was a compiler that would
> spit out Linux, OSx, and M$ at the same time.

There is... VS2013 community edition... FREE.

> I think
> I heard that Qt was trying to do that, but my memory
> is not very good on that.

Last I heard, they are out of business.

>
> And the Metro apps get bitched about by a lot of their users.
> I personally hate the things, but I want a business
> grade workstation, not a tablet.
>

A workstation is far different than a tablet.

>
>>
>> They know that the industry is going deeper into mobile. If they don't
>> keep up, they'd start sliding downhill and they can't afford to do that.
>
> Agreed. I think they should have just gone the two separate
> products route like Apple did.
>

Apples product line really isn't seperated, it just looks that way.

[Gene E. Bloch[_2_]]

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 23:10:22 -0700, T wrote:

> On 03/16/2015 01:29 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 21:33:37 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:21:08 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:04:11 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I suspect the use of
>>>>> "Frankenstein" as a pseudonym will get old for him soon enough.
>>>>
>>>> There's no evidence of that.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, now he knows it irritates some people, he might ride the poor horse until
>>> it drops from exhaustion. Kind of like me telling my wife I don't like lasagna
>>> with part-skim ricotta and or mozzarella cheese. I should have kept my ****ing
>>> mouth shut because she has insisted on using it for the past ten years. If I
>>> had not said anything, I am sure we would have gone back to artery clogging
>>> cheese nine years ago.
>>>
>>> Now, if I want to cheat on my wife, I go to the local Italian restaurant for
>>> lunch..... ;-)
>>
>> I can't tactfully speak to your taste in lunch (JOKE!), but I can tell
>> you that T, alias Todd, has heard others' opinions about his inability
>> to avoid his prejudiced terminology for a long time, and has indicated
>> he has no intention of changing.
>>
>
> He is correct.
>
> "prejudiced terminology", oh brother.

I take it that's a 'thank you' for my avoiding a harsher term...

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

[Gene E. Bloch[_2_]]

On Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:15:00 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Mar 2015 00:46:32 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>>On 03/16/2015 04:50 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>>>> >To be completely honest, I probably let his immaturity get the best of me.
>>>> >The result was that I shifted away from responding to the content of his
>>>> >posts and more toward the person doing the posting. That could be
>>>> >uncomfortable for anyone.
>>>
>>> "Immaturity" is a good word for him. I of course don't know for sure,
>>> but my guess is that he's a teenager.
>>>
>>> And if he's not a teenager, he certainly acts like one.
>>
>>
>>Did the condescending make you two feel better?
>
> Maybe they were expressing their honest opinions. Freedom of expression is like
> a swinging door, it opens in both directions.

Well said.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

[T]

On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
> knew about these problems
> and he is after all the father of Win NT

I did like NT. Rock solid. Never crashed.

I solved a lot of problems folks were having with w95/w98
by putting them on NT Workstations.

[T]

On 03/17/2015 03:01 AM, SC Tom wrote:
>> I had a small business customer that did not ask me and just went out
>> and bought some Frankenstein computer on his own. They were
>> on fire sale prices. When he presented them to me, I told him
>> he wasn't going to like it. He told me it can be that bad.
>> Chuckle! I make him promise not to blame me before I started.
>
>
> If you tell someone they're not going to like it, they probably won't,
> whether it's any good or not (and not just concerning operating
> systems). You've already prejudiced them with how YOU feel instead of
> letting them decide for themselves.

Hi Tom,

Yes and no. And you do have a point.

No, in that it is not ethical to start spending the customer's money
on something you know he isn't going to like. You need his consent
first, so that he has his eyes wide open to what is going to happen.
As a professional it is you job to inform the customer.

He was determined to like it, because he bought the computers
at fire sale prices. And, he was happy with all the tweeks I
had to do right up to when SP1 starting installing and he threw his
hands up in the air. I was not the first person that told him he
wasn't going to like it too.

-T

[T]

On 03/17/2015 06:02 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 23:08:39 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> On 03/15/2015 08:04 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>> Personally, I do not think of W8 as Frankenstein but I do see it as Vista redux.
>>
>> Hi Stormin',
>>
>> Interesting way of looking at it. M$ was/is being insensitive of their
>> users need in both instances. If they had not won the applications
>> wars, they would be in real trouble.
>>
>>>
>>> It takes a lot of work and Classic Shell to bring the GUI back to a logical,
>>> business friendly interface. After getting two machines with 8.1 and giving
>>> them a fair evaluation period, I decided there were no real advantages to 8.1
>>> for my business so I wiped them and applied a W7 image.
>>
>> I had a small business customer that did not ask me and just went out
>> and bought some Frankenstein computer on his own. They were
>> on fire sale prices. When he presented them to me, I told him
>> he wasn't going to like it. He told me it can be that bad.
>> Chuckle! I make him promise not to blame me before I started.
>>
>> When they started trying to jam sp1 on and everything went to hell
>> he called up Dell and returned them. He couldn't take it any more.
>> If it wasn't one thing, it was another. I have forgotten
>> what I had to do to his M$ Server to get it to network, but
>> it was obscure.
>>
>> Then he went to Costco and bought a bunch of W7 workstation (also
>>from Dell). He hasn't had a problem since. And we are still on
>> speaking terms. He kept his promise. Sometimes you get blamed
>> for these things because your are physically closer.
>>
>>>
>>> You guys can do what you like, but I never think it is a good idea to try and
>>> censor what people say just because I don't like their thought process.
>>
>> Sensor is exactly what it is. (I know, it doesn't really work, but
>> they try anyway.) And worse, you have a hard time trusting
>> what comes out of their mouths. Is their advice real or just
>> their agenda? M$ not having update issues takes the cake.
>>
>>> Now, if someone is being abusive towards others or trolling, then the bit bucket
>>> is the perfect place for them.
>>
>> Worry when others with hold information or are rude and condescending
>> to others. Not when they are lampoon a crappy product.
>>
>>> T seems like a reasonable sort of guy and he certainly brings a different,
>>> not-a-MS-sycophant perspective to the group. I suspect the use of
>>> "Frankenstein" as a pseudonym will get old for him soon enough.
>>
>> It is such a good description of the mistakes that were made
>> that it doesn't seem to be wearing off. I even call it
>> Frankenstein to M$'s face when I have to call them. They
>> take it with a grain of salt. (At least I am not swearing
>> at them. Probably the nicest guy they had on the phone all
>> day. I make sure they know I am not holding them personally
>> responsible and do appreciate their help.)
>>
>>> Let's face it,
>>> very few things or people improve as a result of adoration, it is constructive
>>> criticism and profit which drives innovation and improvement.
>>>
>>> All just my humble opinions.
>>
>> Thank you for the kind words.
>
> T, you have misinterpreted my post. I think your use of Frankenstein and M$ are
> immature, silly and counter productive to clear and pithy communications.
>
> It is your right to say anything you like, it is my right to judge you based
> upon your style of expression.
>
> Also, I do not understand why someone would call a manufacturer for assistance
> and intentionally insult their product? Seems rather like telling your waitress
> she is fat and needs to shave her mustache before she brings your order.

All depends on the context. "Frankenstein" was used to explain
a problem with the operation.

>
> I suggest you use a little of your free time to read works by Dale Carnegie and
> Benjamin Franklin, you could tremendously improve your life by learning a few
> basic lessons.
>

Hi Stormin',

I knew. I just liked the way you expressed it.

Not to discount the quotes you sent me from Benjamin
Franklin -- they are very good. But of interest, I heard
a constitutional scholar say that Benjamin Franklin
wasn't allowed to write the Declaration of Independence
because they were afraid he's sick a joke in the middle
of it. I like the guy even more now. :-)

-T

[T]

On 03/17/2015 06:02 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
> I think your use of Frankenstein and M$ are
> immature, silly and counter productive to clear and pithy communications.

Hi Stormin',

This is why I use the term Frankenstein because it best
describes two vastly dissimilar technologies being
rammed together and the disastrous consequences it
creates -- a tablet stitched on to a a desktop.
It is meant to *precisely* describe the problem.

It is not meant as fighting words to insult someones
favorite OS. It is also a gentle lampoon of a problem.
I do not see it as an impediment to clear communications.
But rather the opposite. And I also see those who start
with the name calling when presented with it to be
rather the pot calling the kettle black.

So far, the only legitimate criticism I have seem of
my usage has been that folks don't always realize
right away what I am talking about. This is why
you now see me write (w8) in parenthesis. Soon
as they put the two together, they instantly understand.

And so far, Frankenstein has caused nothing but problems
for my customers, many of whom I have known for years
and an close to.

-T

[T]

On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
> et, others do like it. Depends on what business you are in.
> Nursing homes have used touch screens before win8 even came out.
> They have their clipboard at hand and a pencil. They used the eraser end to
> touch the screen for selections, all in touch mode, to record that certain
> procedures were followed for a client. A lot easier than typing it in when
> that is all that is needed and then move on down the hall to take care of
> someone. Most of these places are still understaffed.

Hi Grey Cloud,

This is fascinating.

What is your take on the difference between this usage on
Franke3nstein (w8), W7 with touch screens, and iPad?

My take would be that iPad would be the best for this.
Batteries last a long time, don't crash, even an
Doctor can figure it out.

By the way, I was serious about wanting to know what you
did to make Frankenstein more useful for your customers.
you seem like you are in the thick of it and would have
a lot of good tips to share.

-T

[T]

On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
> It's been over 20 years and even Sun has finally dumped it on their servers.
> They used to use CDE desktop, but it is tied to X11 and just eats up a lot
> of resources. It's also a major pain to program for.

1+

Great machine, great OS. Way too expensive to purchase and
difficult to write for. They had great tech support.

[T]

On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
> That was their original intent. Business. This is where Apple could take
> the lead by designing a better base for business. There isn't any SQL
> server for OS X. You can get MySQL but that will not address all of big
> businesses needs like SQL server can do like MS has done.

I can not even guess at why Apple ignored business. Big mistake.

I hope Oracle doesn't destroy MySQL.

[T]

On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>> And the idiot power supplies surged, burn things out
>> >that were weak.
>> >
> It wasn't the power supplies in these big machines that croaked... it was
> the temperature change on some weak chip that brought it down.
>

H\i Grey Cloud,

On my machines it was a combination of both. What was about
to blow, usually blew on the power up surge.

The memory of this is one of the reasons why people don't turn
their machines off at night. The problem has been long
solved. (The other is that they are too cheap to get their
viruses removed.)

Do you remember spraying circuit freeze on modules trying
to find out which one was the cold sensitive module?

-T

[T]

On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
> Yes, you can. You have to have Xcode installed. Because that's where the
> iPhone app is developed in the first place. They use the iPhone simulator
> to test run their apps.

Actually I meant "natively".

And my point was the Apple keeps the two separate for
a reason.

And I can run and do Windows programs on my Linux base
station. But, not natively.

[T]

On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
> A workstation is far different than a tablet.

Hi Dark Cloud,

I type a lot, so if I misspell Cloud, it is because I am
a klutz and I am not trying to insult you. (I just had
to fix its spelling, again.)

1+ This is why I refer to w8 as Frankenstein.

Were you ever able to read Windows Red?

http://www.infoworld.com/article/2606346/microsoft-windows/103804-temp.html

I think is M$ had paid attention to Windows Red, they
would have clean up the market.

-T

[GreyCloud[_2_]]

T wrote:

> On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>> Yes, you can. You have to have Xcode installed. Because that's where
>> the
>> iPhone app is developed in the first place. They use the iPhone
>> simulator to test run their apps.
>
> Actually I meant "natively".
>
> And my point was the Apple keeps the two separate for
> a reason.

They aren't separate at all. iOS is a subset of OS X.
It's in the developer DOCS and written about.
But OS X won't run on an iPhone because the iPhone doesn't use an Intel
processor.

>
> And I can run and do Windows programs on my Linux base
> station. But, not natively.

You mean WINE? Why bother to emulate windows with WINE when you already
have the real McCoy?

[GreyCloud[_2_]]

T wrote:

> On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>> That was their original intent. Business. This is where Apple could
>> take
>> the lead by designing a better base for business. There isn't any SQL
>> server for OS X. You can get MySQL but that will not address all of big
>> businesses needs like SQL server can do like MS has done.
>
> I can not even guess at why Apple ignored business. Big mistake.
>
> I hope Oracle doesn't destroy MySQL.

If I'm not mistaken, MySQL is managed by some other OpenSource company.
Apple for the most part from my view is oriented towards Publishing due to
the platforms ability to do font kerning and ligatures. Windows nor Linux
do that. Core Data is just another name for opening and saving files,
called persistence data.

[GreyCloud[_2_]]

T wrote:

> On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>> et, others do like it. Depends on what business you are in.
>> Nursing homes have used touch screens before win8 even came out.
>> They have their clipboard at hand and a pencil. They used the eraser end
>> to touch the screen for selections, all in touch mode, to record that
>> certain
>> procedures were followed for a client. A lot easier than typing it in
>> when that is all that is needed and then move on down the hall to take
>> care of
>> someone. Most of these places are still understaffed.
>
> Hi Grey Cloud,
>
> This is fascinating.
>
> What is your take on the difference between this usage on
> Franke3nstein (w8), W7 with touch screens, and iPad?
>

Each has their niche markets.
W7 touch screens in the nursing homes here are wall mounted and networked.
A lot of Doctors in their office are using W8.1 Pro on laptops with the unit
synced to the Hospital data base.
The only iPad I've seen running was in an Eye-Ears-Nose-Throat doctors
office. I think it was more his choice, but it still synced his data to the
Hospital data base.
I'm sure people will migrate to the type of platform that best suits their
needs.

> My take would be that iPad would be the best for this.
> Batteries last a long time, don't crash, even an
> Doctor can figure it out.

Never saw any of the Windows units crashing. But they do use top of the
line hardware.

>
> By the way, I was serious about wanting to know what you
> did to make Frankenstein more useful for your customers.
> you seem like you are in the thick of it and would have
> a lot of good tips to share.

The key point is if the customer is constantly moving around... like doctors
do, or have their hands fulls most of the time and don't have time to get to
a terminal or keyboard. What I have seen are people that have either dirty
hands or possibly biological contamination on their hands or gloves usually
use the end of their pencil to touch the screen with. But all of these
mobile devices have to be synched to a data base... like iPad to an iMac
running OS X server. Or MS Surface Pro 3 that synchs up to windows server
IIS.

[GreyCloud[_2_]]

T wrote:

> On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>> knew about these problems
>> and he is after all the father of Win NT
>
> I did like NT. Rock solid. Never crashed.
>
> I solved a lot of problems folks were having with w95/w98
> by putting them on NT Workstations.

I found out that Win95/98 wasn't very forgiving with ram glitches.
I had a PC with ECC ram and running win98 and never had a crash on it.
But wifes PC without ECC ram did crash once in a while.
With servers you want ECC ram, and of course it jacks up the price.

[T]

On 03/17/2015 09:21 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>> On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>> knew about these problems
>>> and he is after all the father of Win NT
>>
>> I did like NT. Rock solid. Never crashed.
>>
>> I solved a lot of problems folks were having with w95/w98
>> by putting them on NT Workstations.
>
> I found out that Win95/98 wasn't very forgiving with ram glitches.
> I had a PC with ECC ram and running win98 and never had a crash on it.
> But wifes PC without ECC ram did crash once in a while.
> With servers you want ECC ram, and of course it jacks up the price.
>

I still use ECC ram whenever I can. I do love the
Xeon E3 series and the C2xx chipsets

[T]

On 03/17/2015 09:19 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>> On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>> et, others do like it. Depends on what business you are in.
>>> Nursing homes have used touch screens before win8 even came out.
>>> They have their clipboard at hand and a pencil. They used the eraser end
>>> to touch the screen for selections, all in touch mode, to record that
>>> certain
>>> procedures were followed for a client. A lot easier than typing it in
>>> when that is all that is needed and then move on down the hall to take
>>> care of
>>> someone. Most of these places are still understaffed.
>>
>> Hi Grey Cloud,
>>
>> This is fascinating.
>>
>> What is your take on the difference between this usage on
>> Franke3nstein (w8), W7 with touch screens, and iPad?
>>
>
> Each has their niche markets.
> W7 touch screens in the nursing homes here are wall mounted and networked.
> A lot of Doctors in their office are using W8.1 Pro on laptops with the unit
> synced to the Hospital data base.
> The only iPad I've seen running was in an Eye-Ears-Nose-Throat doctors
> office. I think it was more his choice, but it still synced his data to the
> Hospital data base.
> I'm sure people will migrate to the type of platform that best suits their
> needs.
>
>> My take would be that iPad would be the best for this.
>> Batteries last a long time, don't crash, even an
>> Doctor can figure it out.
>
> Never saw any of the Windows units crashing. But they do use top of the
> line hardware.
>
>>
>> By the way, I was serious about wanting to know what you
>> did to make Frankenstein more useful for your customers.
>> you seem like you are in the thick of it and would have
>> a lot of good tips to share.
>
> The key point is if the customer is constantly moving around... like doctors
> do, or have their hands fulls most of the time and don't have time to get to
> a terminal or keyboard. What I have seen are people that have either dirty
> hands or possibly biological contamination on their hands or gloves usually
> use the end of their pencil to touch the screen with. But all of these
> mobile devices have to be synched to a data base... like iPad to an iMac
> running OS X server. Or MS Surface Pro 3 that synchs up to windows server
> IIS.
>

Just out of curiosity, how are they sanitizing these devices?

(I hate trips to the Allopath [medical doctor] as their offices
are Super Spreaders and I always wind up with 15 different
variations of the common cold virus.)

[T]

On 03/17/2015 09:09 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
> You mean WINE? Why bother to emulate windows with WINE when you already
> have the real McCoy?

Hi Grey Cloud,

Wine and virtual machines. My base system is Scientific Linux.
Far faster and secure, plus much more stable than the Real McCoy.
Plus, I have access to the Red Hat KVM (Kernel Virtual Machine)
developers. KVM almost approaches bare iron in its virtual
machine performance.

I leave all the variations of the Real McCoy for my Virtual
machines. If I have a customer that needs help in Windows
Whatever, I can fire up Windows Whatever and help them, do
research on it or whatever.

At last count I have 14 Virtual Machines. I removed my Vista
VM years ago and have not needed it since. All the rest I
use about once every two weeks or so. XP almost daily
for Go To Assist.

As far as actual work in the Real McCoy, the only Windows
program I have to run in a VM is Go To Assist. And Citrix
tells me they are actively working on a Linux version.

And, I store no data on any Windows VM or any VM for that
matter -- they are not all Windows VM's. This is partly
so I can emulate a full network installation like at
my customer's sites and also because I just don't trust
Windows as far as I can spit. And, it makes the back ups
much easier.

I run Go to Assist from XP as the other versions of
Windows as bloated and slow. So I keep two VM's of
XP, so if one crashes and I have a customer tapping
his fingers waiting on me, I just fire to other one up
and wait and fix the first one on my own time. (I keep
Gold Images of my two XP VM's for easy restore.)

I am looking forward to KVM supporting seamless windows,
like Parallels for OSx does:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39238
now that will be sweet. (Currently, I have to do my drafting
in a Fedora 21 VM as Libre Cad is not supported in
very well in Scientific Linux 6.x.)

When the 32 bit Wine problem get solved in Scientific
Linux, I will be upgrading to SL 7. SL 7 is really
sweet. (Yes I have a VM of that one too.)

In my technical opinion, the only reason to run Windows is
if you are forced to by the lack of a critical application
that your business requires, which is usually 90% of the time.
Windows just isn't good code.

From what I have seen, one IT guy can support about 10 times
the Linux and Apple machines as Windows machines. (I know a
guy who does IT for a big college. If a professor insists on
running Windows, he kicks them off the network. He is
just too overworked to handle Windows.) That being said,
I do make my primary income off of Windows. (Then again,
I am not a snob, I will work on anything as long as it is
moral, legal, and ethical.)

Now if I can figure out how to get OSx into a VM!

-T

Caught the accursed Ask Tool Bar on an Apple a few
months back. Chuckle!

[T]

On 03/17/2015 05:03 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:42:56 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> On 03/17/2015 06:02 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>> I think your use of Frankenstein and M$ are
>>> immature, silly and counter productive to clear and pithy communications.
>>
>> Hi Stormin',
>>
>> This is why I use the term Frankenstein because it best
>> describes two vastly dissimilar technologies being
>> rammed together and the disastrous consequences it
>> creates
>
> Ahh Grasshopper, you are just not ready.....
>

When I grow up, can I be a, a, . Oh never mind.

:-)

[T]

On 03/17/2015 06:09 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 23:20:09 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> On 03/16/2015 06:53 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 00:46:52 -0700, T > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Guy,
>>>>
>>>> You all remember when M$ canceled their newsgroups and
>>>> went to censored forums?
>>>>
>>>> I kind of freaked out a bit. I have had to use them, found
>>>> that if you said anything critical of M$ that you got your
>>>> question pulled, and sometimes got outright lied to.
>>>
>>> Two pearls of wisdom for you "T". I wish I had learned and taken them to heart
>>> while a child.
>>>
>>>
>>> “Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more
>>> difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.”
>>>
>>> -Benjamin Franklin
>>>
>>>
>>> "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."
>>>
>>> -Benjamin Franklin
>>>
>>
>>
>> All true. An undisciplined tough can really get you into
>> trouble.
>>
>
> Do you understand how the above aphorisms might apply to your participation on
> Usenet? This is constructive criticism and you should take it as such.
>

Yes and No. If open and honest dialog is called for to correct and
trouble shoot problems, you are always going to **** someone off.

If your favorite this or that can do no wrong and some one points
out that it can and does do wrong, the feathers (and snot) can fly.

Not everyone on a Usenet is there to share information, help others,
or to learn from others. Some are there to build their own
selves up by condescending over others. Dig a hole under someone
else to make yourself seem taller. You just have to adjust your
kill file list of ass holes.

This tends to be more on Windows groups, but is not isolated to it.

[T]

On 03/18/2015 12:30 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>> >>Ahh Grasshopper, you are just not ready.....
>>> >>
>> >
>> >When I grow up
>
> Ahh, you are an optimist.....

If I had been helping the Almighty when he created man,
I would have had him begin at the other end, and start
human beings with old age. How much better to start old
and have all the bitterness and blindness of age in
the beginning!

-- Mark Twain

[T]

On 03/17/2015 06:15 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Mar 2015 00:46:32 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> On 03/16/2015 04:50 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>>>>> To be completely honest, I probably let his immaturity get the best of me.
>>>>> The result was that I shifted away from responding to the content of his
>>>>> posts and more toward the person doing the posting. That could be
>>>>> uncomfortable for anyone.
>>>
>>> "Immaturity" is a good word for him. I of course don't know for sure,
>>> but my guess is that he's a teenager.
>>>
>>> And if he's not a teenager, he certainly acts like one.
>>
>>
>> Did the condescending make you two feel better?
>
> Maybe they were expressing their honest opinions. Freedom of expression is like
> a swinging door, it opens in both directions.
>

Duh!

[Gene E. Bloch[_2_]]

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 11:58:41 -0700, T wrote:

> On 03/17/2015 09:19 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>>> et, others do like it. Depends on what business you are in.
>>>> Nursing homes have used touch screens before win8 even came out.
>>>> They have their clipboard at hand and a pencil. They used the eraser end
>>>> to touch the screen for selections, all in touch mode, to record that
>>>> certain
>>>> procedures were followed for a client. A lot easier than typing it in
>>>> when that is all that is needed and then move on down the hall to take
>>>> care of
>>>> someone. Most of these places are still understaffed.
>>>
>>> Hi Grey Cloud,
>>>
>>> This is fascinating.
>>>
>>> What is your take on the difference between this usage on
>>> Franke3nstein (w8), W7 with touch screens, and iPad?
>>>
>>
>> Each has their niche markets.
>> W7 touch screens in the nursing homes here are wall mounted and networked.
>> A lot of Doctors in their office are using W8.1 Pro on laptops with the unit
>> synced to the Hospital data base.
>> The only iPad I've seen running was in an Eye-Ears-Nose-Throat doctors
>> office. I think it was more his choice, but it still synced his data to the
>> Hospital data base.
>> I'm sure people will migrate to the type of platform that best suits their
>> needs.
>>
>>> My take would be that iPad would be the best for this.
>>> Batteries last a long time, don't crash, even an
>>> Doctor can figure it out.
>>
>> Never saw any of the Windows units crashing. But they do use top of the
>> line hardware.
>>
>>>
>>> By the way, I was serious about wanting to know what you
>>> did to make Frankenstein more useful for your customers.
>>> you seem like you are in the thick of it and would have
>>> a lot of good tips to share.
>>
>> The key point is if the customer is constantly moving around... like doctors
>> do, or have their hands fulls most of the time and don't have time to get to
>> a terminal or keyboard. What I have seen are people that have either dirty
>> hands or possibly biological contamination on their hands or gloves usually
>> use the end of their pencil to touch the screen with. But all of these
>> mobile devices have to be synched to a data base... like iPad to an iMac
>> running OS X server. Or MS Surface Pro 3 that synchs up to windows server
>> IIS.
>>
>
> Just out of curiosity, how are they sanitizing these devices?
>
> (I hate trips to the Allopath [medical doctor] as their offices
> are Super Spreaders and I always wind up with 15 different
> variations of the common cold virus.)

20 minutes in an autoclave.

Good question, bad answer :-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

[GreyCloud[_2_]]

T wrote:

> On 03/17/2015 09:09 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>> You mean WINE? Why bother to emulate windows with WINE when you already
>> have the real McCoy?
>
> Hi Grey Cloud,
>
> Wine and virtual machines. My base system is Scientific Linux.
> Far faster and secure, plus much more stable than the Real McCoy.

I've seen linux systems destroy themselves, like OPenSuse 11.3.
I've seen some that after running for a few months just up and not boot at
all.
It is mostly bad hardware.

On a UNIX system, when you see a kernel panic, it means that 90% of the time
it is bad ram. Another reason is that the hard disk drive is full and not
much room to do anything else. And another subtle one is using a terminal
program that allows unlimited command history... eventually the system log
will occupy all of your harddrive if you are testing a program that ends up
in an endless loop-> gets logged on the hard drive and fills er up leading
eventually to a kernel panic.

> Plus, I have access to the Red Hat KVM (Kernel Virtual Machine)
> developers. KVM almost approaches bare iron in its virtual
> machine performance.
>
> I leave all the variations of the Real McCoy for my Virtual
> machines. If I have a customer that needs help in Windows
> Whatever, I can fire up Windows Whatever and help them, do
> research on it or whatever.
>
> At last count I have 14 Virtual Machines. I removed my Vista
> VM years ago and have not needed it since. All the rest I
> use about once every two weeks or so. XP almost daily
> for Go To Assist.
>
> As far as actual work in the Real McCoy, the only Windows
> program I have to run in a VM is Go To Assist. And Citrix
> tells me they are actively working on a Linux version.
>
> And, I store no data on any Windows VM or any VM for that
> matter -- they are not all Windows VM's. This is partly
> so I can emulate a full network installation like at
> my customer's sites and also because I just don't trust
> Windows as far as I can spit. And, it makes the back ups
> much easier.
>
> I run Go to Assist from XP as the other versions of
> Windows as bloated and slow. So I keep two VM's of
> XP, so if one crashes and I have a customer tapping
> his fingers waiting on me, I just fire to other one up
> and wait and fix the first one on my own time. (I keep
> Gold Images of my two XP VM's for easy restore.)
>
> I am looking forward to KVM supporting seamless windows,
> like Parallels for OSx does:
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39238
> now that will be sweet. (Currently, I have to do my drafting
> in a Fedora 21 VM as Libre Cad is not supported in
> very well in Scientific Linux 6.x.)
>
> When the 32 bit Wine problem get solved in Scientific
> Linux, I will be upgrading to SL 7. SL 7 is really
> sweet. (Yes I have a VM of that one too.)
>
> In my technical opinion, the only reason to run Windows is
> if you are forced to by the lack of a critical application
> that your business requires, which is usually 90% of the time.
> Windows just isn't good code.
>

Windows is good code. David Cutler wrote most of it.
Just like he did with the workhorse VMS.
What a lot of people don't realize that MS has a lot of convenience APIs for
programmers to use that are not seen in linux.

Plus, SQL Server on windows is still the business strength data base engine.
The bottom line is that most businesses won't go linux due to the lack of
trust in that platform.

> From what I have seen, one IT guy can support about 10 times
> the Linux and Apple machines as Windows machines. (I know a
> guy who does IT for a big college. If a professor insists on
> running Windows, he kicks them off the network. He is
> just too overworked to handle Windows.) That being said,
> I do make my primary income off of Windows. (Then again,
> I am not a snob, I will work on anything as long as it is
> moral, legal, and ethical.)
>
> Now if I can figure out how to get OSx into a VM!
>

Check out the YouTube videos. I've seen them. You just have to have a
legitimate Apple DVD.

[GreyCloud[_2_]]

T wrote:

> On 03/17/2015 09:19 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>>> et, others do like it. Depends on what business you are in.
>>>> Nursing homes have used touch screens before win8 even came out.
>>>> They have their clipboard at hand and a pencil. They used the eraser
>>>> end to touch the screen for selections, all in touch mode, to record
>>>> that certain
>>>> procedures were followed for a client. A lot easier than typing it in
>>>> when that is all that is needed and then move on down the hall to take
>>>> care of
>>>> someone. Most of these places are still understaffed.
>>>
>>> Hi Grey Cloud,
>>>
>>> This is fascinating.
>>>
>>> What is your take on the difference between this usage on
>>> Franke3nstein (w8), W7 with touch screens, and iPad?
>>>
>>
>> Each has their niche markets.
>> W7 touch screens in the nursing homes here are wall mounted and
>> networked. A lot of Doctors in their office are using W8.1 Pro on laptops
>> with the unit synced to the Hospital data base.
>> The only iPad I've seen running was in an Eye-Ears-Nose-Throat doctors
>> office. I think it was more his choice, but it still synced his data to
>> the Hospital data base.
>> I'm sure people will migrate to the type of platform that best suits
>> their needs.
>>
>>> My take would be that iPad would be the best for this.
>>> Batteries last a long time, don't crash, even an
>>> Doctor can figure it out.
>>
>> Never saw any of the Windows units crashing. But they do use top of the
>> line hardware.
>>
>>>
>>> By the way, I was serious about wanting to know what you
>>> did to make Frankenstein more useful for your customers.
>>> you seem like you are in the thick of it and would have
>>> a lot of good tips to share.
>>
>> The key point is if the customer is constantly moving around... like
>> doctors do, or have their hands fulls most of the time and don't have
>> time to get to
>> a terminal or keyboard. What I have seen are people that have either
>> dirty hands or possibly biological contamination on their hands or gloves
>> usually
>> use the end of their pencil to touch the screen with. But all of these
>> mobile devices have to be synched to a data base... like iPad to an iMac
>> running OS X server. Or MS Surface Pro 3 that synchs up to windows
>> server IIS.
>>
>
> Just out of curiosity, how are they sanitizing these devices?
>

I've heard that the best thing is putting them inside a UV light box to kill
all of the germs.

> (I hate trips to the Allopath [medical doctor] as their offices
> are Super Spreaders and I always wind up with 15 different
> variations of the common cold virus.)

Best place to catch a disease, IMO.

[GreyCloud[_2_]]

T wrote:

> On 03/17/2015 09:21 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>>> knew about these problems
>>>> and he is after all the father of Win NT
>>>
>>> I did like NT. Rock solid. Never crashed.
>>>
>>> I solved a lot of problems folks were having with w95/w98
>>> by putting them on NT Workstations.
>>
>> I found out that Win95/98 wasn't very forgiving with ram glitches.
>> I had a PC with ECC ram and running win98 and never had a crash on it.
>> But wifes PC without ECC ram did crash once in a while.
>> With servers you want ECC ram, and of course it jacks up the price.
>>
>
> I still use ECC ram whenever I can. I do love the
> Xeon E3 series and the C2xx chipsets

The Apple Mac Pro uses ECC ram. Spurious ram bit drop outs do happen.
I still like the VAX version the best... 4-bits for error detection and
correction over the entire 32-bit word between cpu to memory, memory to hard
drive, and other peripherals. Expensive but it also works.

[T]

On 03/18/2015 02:45 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>> On 03/17/2015 09:09 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>> You mean WINE? Why bother to emulate windows with WINE when you already
>>> have the real McCoy?
>>
>> Hi Grey Cloud,
>>
>> Wine and virtual machines. My base system is Scientific Linux.
>> Far faster and secure, plus much more stable than the Real McCoy.
>
> I've seen linux systems destroy themselves, like OPenSuse 11.3.
> I've seen some that after running for a few months just up and not boot at
> all.
> It is mostly bad hardware.
>
> On a UNIX system, when you see a kernel panic, it means that 90% of the time
> it is bad ram. Another reason is that the hard disk drive is full and not
> much room to do anything else. And another subtle one is using a terminal
> program that allows unlimited command history... eventually the system log
> will occupy all of your harddrive if you are testing a program that ends up
> in an endless loop-> gets logged on the hard drive and fills er up leading
> eventually to a kernel panic.
>
>> Plus, I have access to the Red Hat KVM (Kernel Virtual Machine)
>> developers. KVM almost approaches bare iron in its virtual
>> machine performance.
>>
>> I leave all the variations of the Real McCoy for my Virtual
>> machines. If I have a customer that needs help in Windows
>> Whatever, I can fire up Windows Whatever and help them, do
>> research on it or whatever.
>>
>> At last count I have 14 Virtual Machines. I removed my Vista
>> VM years ago and have not needed it since. All the rest I
>> use about once every two weeks or so. XP almost daily
>> for Go To Assist.
>>
>> As far as actual work in the Real McCoy, the only Windows
>> program I have to run in a VM is Go To Assist. And Citrix
>> tells me they are actively working on a Linux version.
>>
>> And, I store no data on any Windows VM or any VM for that
>> matter -- they are not all Windows VM's. This is partly
>> so I can emulate a full network installation like at
>> my customer's sites and also because I just don't trust
>> Windows as far as I can spit. And, it makes the back ups
>> much easier.
>>
>> I run Go to Assist from XP as the other versions of
>> Windows as bloated and slow. So I keep two VM's of
>> XP, so if one crashes and I have a customer tapping
>> his fingers waiting on me, I just fire to other one up
>> and wait and fix the first one on my own time. (I keep
>> Gold Images of my two XP VM's for easy restore.)
>>
>> I am looking forward to KVM supporting seamless windows,
>> like Parallels for OSx does:
>> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39238
>> now that will be sweet. (Currently, I have to do my drafting
>> in a Fedora 21 VM as Libre Cad is not supported in
>> very well in Scientific Linux 6.x.)
>>
>> When the 32 bit Wine problem get solved in Scientific
>> Linux, I will be upgrading to SL 7. SL 7 is really
>> sweet. (Yes I have a VM of that one too.)
>>
>> In my technical opinion, the only reason to run Windows is
>> if you are forced to by the lack of a critical application
>> that your business requires, which is usually 90% of the time.
>> Windows just isn't good code.
>>
>
> Windows is good code. David Cutler wrote most of it.

You mean NT? NT was awesome code. M$ went a different
route after that. Things went down hill. W2K (Windows
2000) was nice. I miss it.

> Just like he did with the workhorse VMS.
> What a lot of people don't realize that MS has a lot of convenience APIs for
> programmers to use that are not seen in linux.
>
> Plus, SQL Server on windows is still the business strength data base engine.
> The bottom line is that most businesses won't go linux due to the lack of
> trust in that platform.

It is not lack of trust at all. Linux dominates the
back office. The problem is the lack of applications.
Linux actually has a very good street reputation. I
wonder why you are hearing otherwise? Go figure.

And, as I have said so may times before, the OS you
use is the one that meets your needs.

I build my own so I am pretty much immune to bad
hardware. Grin!

I have had PC's that customers (and I) wanted to kill.
Put Linux in them and suddenly they are boiler plate.
One, a thief had stolen and tossed in a dumpster. XP
refused to even reload. It is still going about 5
more years with Fedora. I have used several condemned
Windows workstations as servers and/or routers with no
trouble whatsoever.

>> From what I have seen, one IT guy can support about 10 times
>> the Linux and Apple machines as Windows machines. (I know a
>> guy who does IT for a big college. If a professor insists on
>> running Windows, he kicks them off the network. He is
>> just too overworked to handle Windows.) That being said,
>> I do make my primary income off of Windows. (Then again,
>> I am not a snob, I will work on anything as long as it is
>> moral, legal, and ethical.)
>>
>> Now if I can figure out how to get OSx into a VM!
>>
>
> Check out the YouTube videos. I've seen them. You just have to have a
> legitimate Apple DVD.

Cool. I will look! Thank you!

-T

Any tips on Frankenstein? I am actually serious. I
am saying as the question might comes off as a
challenge: See you can't do it any better! I assure
you, I am not. I genuinely want to know your
pearls of wisdom. I do stand on the shoulders
of giants.

[T]

On 03/18/2015 02:48 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>> On 03/17/2015 09:21 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>> T wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>>>> knew about these problems
>>>>> and he is after all the father of Win NT
>>>>
>>>> I did like NT. Rock solid. Never crashed.
>>>>
>>>> I solved a lot of problems folks were having with w95/w98
>>>> by putting them on NT Workstations.
>>>
>>> I found out that Win95/98 wasn't very forgiving with ram glitches.
>>> I had a PC with ECC ram and running win98 and never had a crash on it.
>>> But wifes PC without ECC ram did crash once in a while.
>>> With servers you want ECC ram, and of course it jacks up the price.
>>>
>>
>> I still use ECC ram whenever I can. I do love the
>> Xeon E3 series and the C2xx chipsets
>
> The Apple Mac Pro uses ECC ram. Spurious ram bit drop outs do happen.
> I still like the VAX version the best... 4-bits for error detection and
> correction over the entire 32-bit word between cpu to memory, memory to hard
> drive, and other peripherals. Expensive but it also works.
>

I want one! (Yes I am 12 years old!) :-)

[T]

On 03/18/2015 02:41 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 11:58:41 -0700, T wrote:
>
>> On 03/17/2015 09:19 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>> T wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>>>> et, others do like it. Depends on what business you are in.
>>>>> Nursing homes have used touch screens before win8 even came out.
>>>>> They have their clipboard at hand and a pencil. They used the eraser end
>>>>> to touch the screen for selections, all in touch mode, to record that
>>>>> certain
>>>>> procedures were followed for a client. A lot easier than typing it in
>>>>> when that is all that is needed and then move on down the hall to take
>>>>> care of
>>>>> someone. Most of these places are still understaffed.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Grey Cloud,
>>>>
>>>> This is fascinating.
>>>>
>>>> What is your take on the difference between this usage on
>>>> Franke3nstein (w8), W7 with touch screens, and iPad?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Each has their niche markets.
>>> W7 touch screens in the nursing homes here are wall mounted and networked.
>>> A lot of Doctors in their office are using W8.1 Pro on laptops with the unit
>>> synced to the Hospital data base.
>>> The only iPad I've seen running was in an Eye-Ears-Nose-Throat doctors
>>> office. I think it was more his choice, but it still synced his data to the
>>> Hospital data base.
>>> I'm sure people will migrate to the type of platform that best suits their
>>> needs.
>>>
>>>> My take would be that iPad would be the best for this.
>>>> Batteries last a long time, don't crash, even an
>>>> Doctor can figure it out.
>>>
>>> Never saw any of the Windows units crashing. But they do use top of the
>>> line hardware.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> By the way, I was serious about wanting to know what you
>>>> did to make Frankenstein more useful for your customers.
>>>> you seem like you are in the thick of it and would have
>>>> a lot of good tips to share.
>>>
>>> The key point is if the customer is constantly moving around... like doctors
>>> do, or have their hands fulls most of the time and don't have time to get to
>>> a terminal or keyboard. What I have seen are people that have either dirty
>>> hands or possibly biological contamination on their hands or gloves usually
>>> use the end of their pencil to touch the screen with. But all of these
>>> mobile devices have to be synched to a data base... like iPad to an iMac
>>> running OS X server. Or MS Surface Pro 3 that synchs up to windows server
>>> IIS.
>>>
>>
>> Just out of curiosity, how are they sanitizing these devices?
>>
>> (I hate trips to the Allopath [medical doctor] as their offices
>> are Super Spreaders and I always wind up with 15 different
>> variations of the common cold virus.)
>
> 20 minutes in an autoclave.
>
> Good question, bad answer :-)
>

LOL!

[T]

On 03/18/2015 02:46 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>> On 03/17/2015 09:19 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>> T wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03/17/2015 10:29 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>>>> et, others do like it. Depends on what business you are in.
>>>>> Nursing homes have used touch screens before win8 even came out.
>>>>> They have their clipboard at hand and a pencil. They used the eraser
>>>>> end to touch the screen for selections, all in touch mode, to record
>>>>> that certain
>>>>> procedures were followed for a client. A lot easier than typing it in
>>>>> when that is all that is needed and then move on down the hall to take
>>>>> care of
>>>>> someone. Most of these places are still understaffed.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Grey Cloud,
>>>>
>>>> This is fascinating.
>>>>
>>>> What is your take on the difference between this usage on
>>>> Franke3nstein (w8), W7 with touch screens, and iPad?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Each has their niche markets.
>>> W7 touch screens in the nursing homes here are wall mounted and
>>> networked. A lot of Doctors in their office are using W8.1 Pro on laptops
>>> with the unit synced to the Hospital data base.
>>> The only iPad I've seen running was in an Eye-Ears-Nose-Throat doctors
>>> office. I think it was more his choice, but it still synced his data to
>>> the Hospital data base.
>>> I'm sure people will migrate to the type of platform that best suits
>>> their needs.
>>>
>>>> My take would be that iPad would be the best for this.
>>>> Batteries last a long time, don't crash, even an
>>>> Doctor can figure it out.
>>>
>>> Never saw any of the Windows units crashing. But they do use top of the
>>> line hardware.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> By the way, I was serious about wanting to know what you
>>>> did to make Frankenstein more useful for your customers.
>>>> you seem like you are in the thick of it and would have
>>>> a lot of good tips to share.
>>>
>>> The key point is if the customer is constantly moving around... like
>>> doctors do, or have their hands fulls most of the time and don't have
>>> time to get to
>>> a terminal or keyboard. What I have seen are people that have either
>>> dirty hands or possibly biological contamination on their hands or gloves
>>> usually
>>> use the end of their pencil to touch the screen with. But all of these
>>> mobile devices have to be synched to a data base... like iPad to an iMac
>>> running OS X server. Or MS Surface Pro 3 that synchs up to windows
>>> server IIS.
>>>
>>
>> Just out of curiosity, how are they sanitizing these devices?
>>
>
> I've heard that the best thing is putting them inside a UV light box to kill
> all of the germs.
>
>> (I hate trips to the Allopath [medical doctor] as their offices
>> are Super Spreaders and I always wind up with 15 different
>> variations of the common cold virus.)
>
> Best place to catch a disease, IMO.
>

1+++++

Both my mother and father in law were death-by-medical
(hospital infections)

[T]

On 03/18/2015 03:42 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 12:50:18 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> On 03/18/2015 12:30 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>>>>>> Ahh Grasshopper, you are just not ready.....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When I grow up
>>>
>>> Ahh, you are an optimist.....
>>
>> If I had been helping the Almighty when he created man,
>> I would have had him begin at the other end, and start
>> human beings with old age. How much better to start old
>> and have all the bitterness and blindness of age in
>> the beginning!
>>
>> -- Mark Twain
>
> If only the quote were apropos.....
>

When did you lose your sense of humor? Life sucks
if you can't laugh (Frankenstein, Mark Twain, ...)

[T]

On 03/18/2015 03:34 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 12:40:37 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> On 03/17/2015 06:09 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 23:20:09 -0700, T > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03/16/2015 06:53 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 00:46:52 -0700, T > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Guy,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You all remember when M$ canceled their newsgroups and
>>>>>> went to censored forums?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I kind of freaked out a bit. I have had to use them, found
>>>>>> that if you said anything critical of M$ that you got your
>>>>>> question pulled, and sometimes got outright lied to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Two pearls of wisdom for you "T". I wish I had learned and taken them to heart
>>>>> while a child.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> “Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more
>>>>> difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.”
>>>>>
>>>>> -Benjamin Franklin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."
>>>>>
>>>>> -Benjamin Franklin
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All true. An undisciplined tough can really get you into
>>>> trouble.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do you understand how the above aphorisms might apply to your participation on
>>> Usenet? This is constructive criticism and you should take it as such.
>>>
>>
>> Yes and No. If open and honest dialog is called for to correct and
>> trouble shoot problems, you are always going to **** someone off.
>>
>> If your favorite this or that can do no wrong and some one points
>> out that it can and does do wrong, the feathers (and snot) can fly.
>>
>> Not everyone on a Usenet is there to share information, help others,
>> or to learn from others. Some are there to build their own
>> selves up by condescending over others. Dig a hole under someone
>> else to make yourself seem taller. You just have to adjust your
>> kill file list of ass holes.
>>
>> This tends to be more on Windows groups, but is not isolated to it.
>
>
> Ahhh grasshopper....... one day.
>

uh. Cough, cough. I am "the dude!"

I like grasshopper too, but I won't admit it.

[T]

On 03/18/2015 04:58 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 16:15:29 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> On 03/18/2015 03:42 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 12:50:18 -0700, T > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03/18/2015 12:30 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Ahh Grasshopper, you are just not ready.....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I grow up
>>>>>
>>>>> Ahh, you are an optimist.....
>>>>
>>>> If I had been helping the Almighty when he created man,
>>>> I would have had him begin at the other end, and start
>>>> human beings with old age. How much better to start old
>>>> and have all the bitterness and blindness of age in
>>>> the beginning!
>>>>
>>>> -- Mark Twain
>>>
>>> If only the quote were apropos.....
>>>
>>
>> When did you lose your sense of humor? Life sucks
>> if you can't laugh (Frankenstein, Mark Twain, ...)
>
> I have been and I am still laughing...........
>

Order has been restored to the universe! :-)

[G. Morgan[_7_]]

Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 15:03:38 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>> On 03/12/2015 10:03 AM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>> > On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:08:41 -0500, G. Morgan
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> I have it on good authority RTM will be in late June to mid July.
>> >
>> >
>> > My understanding is that it is scheduled for September (although it's
>> > little more than a rumor at this stage; schedules *do* get changed,
>> > and it can always be later than planned).
>> >
>> > What is your "good authority" that says otherwise? Please provide a
>> > link.
>> >
>>
>> Its coming! We all need to be ready! And a special
>> thank you to all that are helping me to do that.
>
>
>???? A non-answer to the question I asked?
>
>Is there no answer because there is no "good authority RTM will be in
>late June to mid July"?


Message-ID: >

I work on HP things that do have a deadline. They (MS & HP) want it ready
before Christmas, and before that happens lots of testing has to be done by
OEMs.