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T
April 28th 15, 08:45 PM
http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html

Rene Lamontagne
April 28th 15, 09:50 PM
On 4/28/2015 2:45 PM, T wrote:
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html
>
Yep, another moron yelling The PC is Dead, The sky is falling, What a
stupid jerk

Rene

VanguardLH[_2_]
April 29th 15, 12:19 AM
T wrote:

> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html

http://www.acronymfinder.com/SOF.html

So which of those acronyms is the one matching what you think SOF means?

When I built my home computers, I plan for 6 years of use before the
hardware will likely be severely lagging behind the minimal requirements
not so much of the operating system but of applications that are new 6
years from now. Right now, the home computer that I have was salvaged
from a friend who didn't want to fix some hardware problems. So between
this friend and me, this computer (Intel Core 2 Quad Q9400) is somewhere
around 8 years old. In that time, how many smartphones would the
average user had discarded and moved to a newer model? The average
use-span of mobile devices is only 21 months.

I have a fully usable and very still viable desktop PC after 8 years
whereas the mobile device users have discarded more than 4 mobile
devices in that same time and half way through the use-span of their
current mobile device. Mobile devices are designed for quick
obsolesence and dump fill.

Rene Lamontagne
April 29th 15, 01:30 AM
On 4/28/2015 4:01 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 15:50:35 -0500, Rene Lamontagne > wrote:
>
>> On 4/28/2015 2:45 PM, T wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html
>>>
>> Yep, another moron yelling The PC is Dead, The sky is falling, What a
>> stupid jerk
>
> What did he write which you felt was inaccurate or less than insightful?
>


What PC dilemma?

Rene

Rene Lamontagne
April 29th 15, 01:58 AM
On 4/28/2015 7:42 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 19:30:53 -0500, Rene Lamontagne > wrote:
>
>> On 4/28/2015 4:01 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 15:50:35 -0500, Rene Lamontagne > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/28/2015 2:45 PM, T wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html
>>>>>
>>>> Yep, another moron yelling The PC is Dead, The sky is falling, What a
>>>> stupid jerk
>>>
>>> What did he write which you felt was inaccurate or less than insightful?
>>>
>>
>>
>> What PC dilemma?
>>
>
> Is that is your only criticism? Do you take issue with anything in the body of
> the article?
>


Basically he seems to be biased towards Apple and it shows badly in his
article, He certainly is not going to say anything good about Microsoft
therefore making his article rather useless.

Regards, Rene, A former Apple User

Ashton Crusher[_2_]
April 29th 15, 03:42 AM
On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 21:01:13 +0000, Stormin' Norman
> wrote:

>On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 15:50:35 -0500, Rene Lamontagne > wrote:
>
>>On 4/28/2015 2:45 PM, T wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html
>>>
>> Yep, another moron yelling The PC is Dead, The sky is falling, What a
>>stupid jerk
>
>What did he write which you felt was inaccurate or less than insightful?

He made it sound like it was some huge change to go from xp to vista
to 7 when the truth is for the typical user it was really pretty
simple. Going to 8 was a mess I'll admit.

And the "won't save the PC" headline is just stupid. The PC is fine.
It's in use in business's and houses all over the world and will be
for many many more years. Nothing lasts forever. MS's only problem
is figuring out where to spend all the money.

. . .winston
April 29th 15, 06:51 AM
T wrote:
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html
>
Useless article.

Windows 10 isn't aimed at the consumer pc or saving it...it should be
clear to anyone that in the long term it's trajectory and design intent
is aimed directly at Enterprise and smartdevices (business and
consumer). That market across the entire planet in case anyone missed
it, has become the norm.

Whether we like it or not how we communicate has changed. Email is too
burdensome and slow and counterproductive in the Enterprise environment
(too much waste not adding value to company objectives). In the next
decade smart devices will become the primary means of data management.

Plan now, the direction is changing faster than anyone can complain
about it. Don't let the RC factor (resistance to change) become your mo.

--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

T
April 29th 15, 08:11 PM
On 04/28/2015 01:50 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 4/28/2015 2:45 PM, T wrote:
>>
>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html
>>
>>
> Yep, another moron yelling The PC is Dead, The sky is falling, What a
> stupid jerk
>
> Rene
>

Did you actually read the article?

T
April 29th 15, 08:13 PM
On 04/28/2015 05:58 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 4/28/2015 7:42 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 19:30:53 -0500, Rene Lamontagne >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/28/2015 4:01 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 15:50:35 -0500, Rene Lamontagne
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/28/2015 2:45 PM, T wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, another moron yelling The PC is Dead, The sky is falling,
>>>>> What a
>>>>> stupid jerk
>>>>
>>>> What did he write which you felt was inaccurate or less than
>>>> insightful?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What PC dilemma?
>>>
>>
>> Is that is your only criticism? Do you take issue with anything in
>> the body of
>> the article?
>>
>
>
> Basically he seems to be biased towards Apple and it shows badly in his
> article, He certainly is not going to say anything good about Microsoft
> therefore making his article rather useless.
>
> Regards, Rene, A former Apple User
>

Did not catch that. He only pointed out that XP users were
moving to Apple because of the terrible offerings from M$.
I have noticed the same thing. It is just on observation,
not an attempt to sway opinion.

T
April 29th 15, 08:20 PM
On 04/28/2015 07:42 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 21:01:13 +0000, Stormin' Norman
> > wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 15:50:35 -0500, Rene Lamontagne > wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/28/2015 2:45 PM, T wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html
>>>>
>>> Yep, another moron yelling The PC is Dead, The sky is falling, What a
>>> stupid jerk
>>
>> What did he write which you felt was inaccurate or less than insightful?
>
> He made it sound like it was some huge change to go from xp to vista
> to 7 when the truth is for the typical user it was really pretty
> simple.

You are looking at the end result. Pretty much the same.

What you are missing the total wipe and reinstall of everything.
It is a big deal. Plus a lot of your old software won't
work. This is why a considerable number as jumping to
apple.

> Going to 8 was a mess I'll admit.
>
> And the "won't save the PC" headline is just stupid. The PC is fine.
> It's in use in business's and houses all over the world and will be
> for many many more years. Nothing lasts forever. MS's only problem
> is figuring out where to spend all the money.

Wasn't the best headline. The article though, was well done.

I don't think M$ has any interest in saving the PC, just in
cashing in on the revenue stream that the various "stores"
bring in (Apple Store, Android Store, etc.). M$ realizes
the general public doesn't like the products, especially
their Frankenstein line (w8, w10).

Things won't get any better until (mainly business) applications
get supported on other operating systems. Monopolies always
eventually collapse (thought who wants to wait for it).

T
April 29th 15, 08:34 PM
On 04/28/2015 04:19 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> So which of those acronyms is the one matching what you think SOF means?

Hi Vanguard,

When I write SOF (w10), I always write in parenthesis
what I mean, so those not familiar with my writing
can tell.


SOF:

Son-of-Frankenstein. An acronym created by Todd the
Magnificent, also know as "-T" to describe M$
(Microsoft) Windows 10, also know as Frankenstein the
Younger, also know as Windows Nein. SOF also describes the
problems inherited from its father, Frankenstein the Elder,
also know as Frankenstein, also know as Windows 8, which
is the stitching together of the dissimilar Tablet and
Desktop technologies, which is causing a great deal of
end user consternation, not to mention spontaneous scratching of
the head, spontaneous shaking of the fist, and spontaneous
swearing.

How'd I do?

-T

T
April 29th 15, 08:48 PM
On 04/28/2015 10:51 PM, . . .winston wrote:
> T wrote:
>>
>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html
>>
>>
> Useless article.
>
> Windows 10 isn't aimed at the consumer pc or saving it...it should be
> clear to anyone that in the long term it's trajectory and design intent
> is aimed directly at Enterprise and smartdevices (business and
> consumer). That market across the entire planet in case anyone missed
> it, has become the norm.
>
> Whether we like it or not how we communicate has changed. Email is too
> burdensome and slow and counterproductive in the Enterprise environment
> (too much waste not adding value to company objectives). In the next
> decade smart devices will become the primary means of data management.
>
> Plan now, the direction is changing faster than anyone can complain
> about it. Don't let the RC factor (resistance to change) become your mo.
>

Hi Winston,

Part of what you say its true. What you are missing is that
iPad (the only serious tablet) have plunged. Everyone that
whats one, has one. And those that have one, find it works
just fine and are not interested in upgrading.

Also, the PC (desktop) and Tablet are used for dramatically
different purposes. Tablets are for receiving/viewing
information and they excel at it. But they are a NIGHTMARES
for creating information. Desktops are where content
creation happens, including Apps for tablets. As long
as there is creation going on, there will be desktops.

I personally am glad to see low end users move to tablets.
There is not need for them to use/have a full business class
computer. And I am glad not to have to listen to their bitching
over the cost of their upkeep. (One wonders what these guys
must think every time they have to fill their gas tanks and
what kind of tongue lasting the gas station attendant
has to put up with.)

And eMail is here to stay, as business want the paper trail
they provide.

Speaking of old stuff, the legal, real estate, insurance fields
will keep the fax machine around FOREVER!

As far as PC goes, your analogy is good. Information viewers
are pretty much history for the PC. The PC really need
to focus on the actual market, which is information creators.
M$'s Frankenstein family of operating systems (w8 and w10)
is not helping.

-T

Char Jackson
April 29th 15, 09:24 PM
On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 01:51:20 -0400, ". . .winston" >
wrote:

>T wrote:
>>
>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html
>>
>Useless article.

I thought it was fairly well written and useful, or at least useful to me.
To people who follow the industry very closely, I'm sure there was nothing
new there, but I don't, so it was fine.

>Windows 10 isn't aimed at the consumer pc or saving it...it should be
>clear to anyone that in the long term it's trajectory and design intent
>is aimed directly at Enterprise and smartdevices (business and
>consumer). That market across the entire planet in case anyone missed
>it, has become the norm.

Then I'm confused. If you had said that Windows 7 (and XP before it) was
aimed at the Enterprise market, I would have agreed, but I'm not sure how
the same can be said for Win 8 or 10. Those two very clearly AREN'T aimed at
the Enterprise market. They're aimed at a hybrid tablet/PC consumer market,
IMHO.

>Whether we like it or not how we communicate has changed. Email is too
>burdensome and slow and counterproductive in the Enterprise environment
>(too much waste not adding value to company objectives).

Email is still the dominant form of non-verbal communication in the
Enterprise space. IM is becoming more prevalent for quick chats, but for
anything beyond IM it's going to be email. I don't see that changing anytime
soon since there's nothing on the horizon yet to replace it.

>In the next
>decade smart devices will become the primary means of data management.

You were talking about how people communicate. Whether they're holding a
smart device or not, they still need a means of communication. Texting and
voice messaging aren't going to replace email.

>Plan now, the direction is changing faster than anyone can complain
>about it. Don't let the RC factor (resistance to change) become your mo.

Change is constant, but some things happen slower than others. In order for
email to slip away into the dustbin of history, something has to replace it.
We don't have that something yet. Whatever it's going to be, it needs to be
developed, introduced, and adopted, and all of those take time.

VanguardLH[_2_]
April 29th 15, 10:13 PM
T wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> So which of those acronyms is the one matching what you think SOF means?
>
> Hi Vanguard,
>
> When I write SOF (w10), I always write in parenthesis
> what I mean, so those not familiar with my writing
> can tell.
>
> SOF:
>
> Son-of-Frankenstein. An acronym created by Todd the
> Magnificent, also know as "-T" to describe M$
> (Microsoft) Windows 10, also know as Frankenstein the
> Younger, also know as Windows Nein. SOF also describes the
> problems inherited from its father, Frankenstein the Elder,
> also know as Frankenstein, also know as Windows 8, which
> is the stitching together of the dissimilar Tablet and
> Desktop technologies, which is causing a great deal of
> end user consternation, not to mention spontaneous scratching of
> the head, spontaneous shaking of the fist, and spontaneous
> swearing.
>
> How'd I do?

And why this private terminology hasn't pervaded computerese to be a
well-known acronym. I never gave a gnat's fart about children gloming
onto a stupid moniker mentioned by some author long ago. It's like kids
that glom onto "****ake" so they can say a bad word without penalty.
Frankenstein has been mentioned for Windows 8 long before you glomed
onto it; however, it was not intended as a moniker but as a description.

Wasn't Frankenstein first applied to Windows 8 [Preview]? That would
make 8.1 the Son of Frankenstein and Windows 10 would be the grandson of
Frankenstein. It's obvious that using this term is less accurate than
using the version numbers.

As for stitching together an OS, that would apply way back to Windows 95
with a combo of a DOS 16-bit kernel and a 9x 32-bit kernel. To avoid
conflict with your self-proclaimed usurping of someone else's previously
used description, I suppose we could use the Dr Jekyll and Mr Hide
analogy for Windows 95.

VanguardLH[_2_]
April 29th 15, 11:29 PM
I have to wonder if the article's author does not do programming. He
focuses on the users' visual experience rather than on what future
developers might want to incorporate for features or security. He
doesn't know that Windows 10 provides changes (upgrades) to various APIs
that programs will then employ.

Directx 12 (introduces next version of Direct3D)
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/directx/archive/2014/03/20/directx-12.aspx
True universal apps across all form factors of devices
Hundreds of new WinRT APIs (new runtime for Store apps)
New biometrics support
Per-application VPN control
Secure Execution Environment (aka Device Guard, Hyper-V powered)
and more

Do I need any of that right now? Do I want any any of that now? No,
and probably not for many years. However, those that focus on claiming
Windows 10 has no bang-for-the-buck to, say, Windows 7 users almost
always miss (often due to ignorance) all the under-the-hood improvements
in Windows 10. I suspect curiousity will get the better of me to move
to Windows 10 but only after establishing an escape plan.

I first listed DirectX 12 for a reason. Other than business (and mostly
programming) use, what else pushes the need for the next version of
Windows? What do you see as the push for home users wanting the next
version? There's the well-trained sales mantra drilled into them that
"newer is better" but quite often it's the games that get home users to
move to the next version of Windows. A game they want to play requires
some newer or enhanced API that isn't available unless they move to the
new version of Windows. Games that require a newer version of DirectX
will push users to the next version of Windows. Users don't change
Windows versions because they want to move MS Office over to the new
version of Windows. The apps don't push users to a new Windows but
games do. It's also why these users buy newer hardware because the
games mandate higher hardware requirements.

When I've seen users (not companies) switch to a newer version of
Windows, it wasn't because their current suite of apps suddenly changed
their system requirements so that a newer version of Windows was needed.
Everything was already working for them. What type of applications push
the consumer market to get newer versions of Windows and newer hardware?
Games.

Users don't need newer hardware and OS just to run a word editor or
e-mail app. Few apps demand newer hardware (as they already have system
requirements that would've mandated more RAM or other hardware under the
current version of the OS). Only IE users that demand staying IE users
have to move to a newer version of Windows while all other web browser
users can hang back in older versions of Windows, so web browsing isn't
an impelling reason to move to a later version of Windows. You can hang
back 2 to 3 versions of Windows for many years until eventually the apps
that worked before have newer versions you need (or maybe just want)
requiring a new Windows version.

Microsoft loves users that are engrained in the newer-is-better mantra.
So what else pushes users to a newer OS? It can't be the apps. The
latest version of MS/Libre/OpenOffice that does everything you need and
runs under your current OS doesn't mandate you move to a newer version
of Windows. E-mail doesn't push you to a newer OS. Except in some
vertical markets, apps don't push you to a newer OS. What apps do you
use now that won't continue working under your current OS? What apps in
those same categories as your current apps would push you to a newer OS?
Games.

If you want to play a game that has a minimal system requirement of
DirectX 12, well, you'll be moving to Windows 10, or you pass on the
game. It's not just the GUI (visual experience) that'll change. Since
I play only a few games and none demand DirectX 12 (for obvious reasons)
then the only driving force for me to move to Windows 10 is a game that
I really REALLY want to play. E-mail, word processing, C/C++/C# and
other programming, video watching, web browsing, yadda yadda don't
require me to move from Win7. Other than games (and curiousity),
there's no reason for me to move away from my current OS. Games are the
impetus for a newer Windows; however, there are a lot of newer-is-better
suckers.

There are under-the-hood changes to Windows 10 but most users often
focus only on the visual experience. At some point in the future,
perhaps in 4 years (2 years for consumer adoption + 2 years for program
catchup for expertise and feature enhancement), many programs (mostly
games) will list Windows 10 as a minimal system requirement. By then
I'm hoping Windows 11 will soon get released so I can determine if
Windows 10 is another Windows Vista/8 flop and I should wait for Windows
11 or if Windows 10 is really an okay desktop OS.

I really suspect it'll be curiousity that gets me onto Windows 10. Hmm,
the Forbidden City. What's in there? You're not allowed. I gotta see.
Sneak in. Chop, there goes my head. Good thing I planned a time loop
(image backup) to before I snuck in. The only feedback I've gotten from
the IT folks is a sense of dread.

. . .winston
April 30th 15, 02:51 AM
T wrote:
> On 04/28/2015 10:51 PM, . . .winston wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Useless article.
>>
>> Windows 10 isn't aimed at the consumer pc or saving it...it should be
>> clear to anyone that in the long term it's trajectory and design intent
>> is aimed directly at Enterprise and smartdevices (business and
>> consumer). That market across the entire planet in case anyone missed
>> it, has become the norm.
>>
>> Whether we like it or not how we communicate has changed. Email is too
>> burdensome and slow and counterproductive in the Enterprise environment
>> (too much waste not adding value to company objectives). In the next
>> decade smart devices will become the primary means of data management.
>>
>> Plan now, the direction is changing faster than anyone can complain
>> about it. Don't let the RC factor (resistance to change) become your mo.
>>
>
> Hi Winston,
>
> Part of what you say its true. What you are missing is that
> iPad (the only serious tablet) have plunged. Everyone that
> whats one, has one. And those that have one, find it works
> just fine and are not interested in upgrading.
>
> Also, the PC (desktop) and Tablet are used for dramatically
> different purposes. Tablets are for receiving/viewing
> information and they excel at it. But they are a NIGHTMARES
> for creating information. Desktops are where content
> creation happens, including Apps for tablets. As long
> as there is creation going on, there will be desktops.
>
> I personally am glad to see low end users move to tablets.
> There is not need for them to use/have a full business class
> computer. And I am glad not to have to listen to their bitching
> over the cost of their upkeep. (One wonders what these guys
> must think every time they have to fill their gas tanks and
> what kind of tongue lasting the gas station attendant
> has to put up with.)
>
> And eMail is here to stay, as business want the paper trail
> they provide.
>
> Speaking of old stuff, the legal, real estate, insurance fields
> will keep the fax machine around FOREVER!
>
> As far as PC goes, your analogy is good. Information viewers
> are pretty much history for the PC. The PC really need
> to focus on the actual market, which is information creators.
> M$'s Frankenstein family of operating systems (w8 and w10)
> is not helping.
>
> -T
Some of what you say is true, but imo, it still has a bit of tunnel
vision. Everyone looks at the status of the past market sales through
the last quarter and year to year comparisions.

The volume of sales is still significant and the Asian and Pacific Rim
markets have yet to evolve out of infancy.

The future will change, and not by us or current users but by the future
disposable (discretionary and essential) income of the next, soon-to-be
20-30's generation.

--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

Char Jackson
April 30th 15, 03:18 AM
On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 17:29:42 -0500, VanguardLH > wrote:

>When I've seen users (not companies) switch to a newer version of
>Windows, it wasn't because their current suite of apps suddenly changed
>their system requirements so that a newer version of Windows was needed.
>Everything was already working for them. What type of applications push
>the consumer market to get newer versions of Windows and newer hardware?
>Games.

I think you're asking the wrong question when you ask what type of
applications push the consumer market to upgrade their version of Windows.
Much more often than games, it's probably just a matter of buying new
hardware and taking the OS that happens to come with it.

VanguardLH[_2_]
April 30th 15, 04:27 AM
VanguardLH wrote:

> Char Jackson wrote:
>
>> I think you're asking the wrong question when you ask what type of
>> applications push the consumer market to upgrade their version of
>> Windows. Much more often than games, it's probably just a matter of
>> buying new hardware and taking the OS that happens to come with it.
>
> I forgot all about the consumers that buy pre-builts with
> pre-installed software. To some extent, they don't have a choice
> what comes pre-installed in the pre-built desktop or laptop that they
> buy. Of course, they're making the choice to leave their old
> hardware with the old OS and all those apps that were still working.
> They come under the "newer is better" trained consumers that I
> mentioned.

From my readings so far, Windows 10's initial penetration will be via
upgrade. None of those users had to upgrade. Nothing they have now and
perhaps for another 2+ years will demand Windows 10 as a minimum system
requirement. All those upgrade migrations to Windows 10 will be due to
the new-is-better trained consumers that I mentioned.

New sales of pre-builts that come with pre-installed OS+bundleware are
yet unknown. Has anyone [been foolish enough to] project new sales
figures for Windows 10 whether it be a standalone purchase of Windows 10
(since the free upgrade won't apply to everyone, especially businesses)
or pre-installed on pre-builts? Or, this time, is everyone remaining
mute considering the Vista and 8 flops?

At Newegg, there are far more pre-builts and laptops that come with
Windows 7 pre-installed than have Windows 8 pre-installed. Windows XP
comes in at a far distant 3rd but still beats Windows Vista for
pre-installed OSes on pre-builts and laptops. Will be interesting to
see how many hardware vendors wade into Windows 10 pre-installs on their
hardware. They'll probably be forced due to contractual obligations
with Microsoft, or their volume reseller licensing dries up and they
don't have a choice but to move to pre-installing Windows 10.

With the dilution of new sales of Windows 10 due to the infusion of its
licenses via upgrade, I suspect initial sales of Windows 10 standalone
to be dismal (excepting volume licenses purchased by businesses -- if
they decide to migrate to Windows 10) and new sales of pre-builts and
laptops not primarily driven with them having Windows 10. There are
some consumers that are willing to bleed with a new OS but many
consumers want their computers to work from the get-go. With Microsoft
doling out free upgrades, where's the impetus for hardware vendors to
pre-install Windows 10 unless they are forced by Microsoft?

Unlike the past where consumers were drawn to buy new pre-builts to have
someone else do a pre-install of the OS (so they didn't have to do that
admin stuff on their old hardware), the free upgrade for Windows 10
looks to severely cut into that consumer marketshare. Why buy new
hardware when you can upgrade to the new OS for free?

Sometimes you just cannot predict the market. To me, Windows 10 new
sales figures will likely be dismal (except for volume license sales).
Consumers won't have to abandon their old pre-builts to get a newer OS.
Yet who would've thought you'd have to navigate the ridicuously long
lines at the malls for parents kowtowing to their crazed kids waiting to
buy Beanie Babies and Cabbage Patch dolls? Marketing is everything. If
marketed right, you can sell crap for a profit. There are still sales
of 3-inch Golden Gate Bridge momentos selling at $235 apiece. There was
some guy that decided to auction his pocket change at eBay and got some
insanely high bids (I think eBay yanked his auction). There are suckers
everywhere. That's why spam still lives.

. . .winston
April 30th 15, 07:16 AM
VanguardLH wrote:
> VanguardLH wrote:
>
> At Newegg, there are far more pre-builts and laptops that come with
> Windows 7 pre-installed than have Windows 8 pre-installed. Windows XP
> comes in at a far distant 3rd but still beats Windows Vista for
> pre-installed OSes on pre-builts and laptops. Will be interesting to
> see how many hardware vendors wade into Windows 10 pre-installs on their
> hardware. They'll probably be forced due to contractual obligations
> with Microsoft, or their volume reseller licensing dries up and they
> don't have a choice but to move to pre-installing Windows 10.
>
> With the dilution of new sales of Windows 10 due to the infusion of its
> licenses via upgrade, I suspect initial sales of Windows 10 standalone
> to be dismal (excepting volume licenses purchased by businesses -- if
> they decide to migrate to Windows 10) and new sales of pre-builts and
> laptops not primarily driven with them having Windows 10. There are
> some consumers that are willing to bleed with a new OS but many
> consumers want their computers to work from the get-go. With Microsoft
> doling out free upgrades, where's the impetus for hardware vendors to
> pre-install Windows 10 unless they are forced by Microsoft?
>
> Unlike the past where consumers were drawn to buy new pre-builts to have
> someone else do a pre-install of the OS (so they didn't have to do that
> admin stuff on their old hardware), the free upgrade for Windows 10
> looks to severely cut into that consumer marketshare. Why buy new
> hardware when you can upgrade to the new OS for free?
>
There's a piece of that pie that needs to be noted.

Upgrade from Win7 or Win8.1 to Win10 yields a retail MSFT supported o/s
for all o/s (retail and OEM)...which would appear to be contractual
bargaining tool to relieve OEM's of their OEM support responsibility
(i.e. less expense, staff, cost for the old and incentive in one form to
pre-build devices with Win10 new OEM).





--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

mechanic
April 30th 15, 12:01 PM
On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 12:34:07 -0700, T wrote:

> When I write SOF (w10), I always write in parenthesis what I mean,
> so those not familiar with my writing can tell.

I suspect many of those familiar with your writing have consigned it
to the killfile so no worries there.

Char Jackson
April 30th 15, 03:08 PM
On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 21:29:22 -0500, VanguardLH > wrote:

>Char Jackson wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 17:29:42 -0500, VanguardLH > wrote:
>>
>>>When I've seen users (not companies) switch to a newer version of
>>>Windows, it wasn't because their current suite of apps suddenly changed
>>>their system requirements so that a newer version of Windows was needed.
>>>Everything was already working for them. What type of applications push
>>>the consumer market to get newer versions of Windows and newer hardware?
>>>Games.
>>
>> I think you're asking the wrong question when you ask what type of
>> applications push the consumer market to upgrade their version of Windows.
>> Much more often than games, it's probably just a matter of buying new
>> hardware and taking the OS that happens to come with it.
>
>I forgot all about the consumers that buy pre-builts with pre-installed
>software. To some extent, they don't have a choice what comes
>pre-installed in the pre-built desktop or laptop that they buy. Of
>course, they're making the choice to leave their old hardware with the
>old OS and all those apps that were still working. They come under the
>"newer is better" trained consumers that I mentioned.

In addition to the "newer is better" crowd, there's the "I let the smoke
out" crowd. They want to buy a working replacement. That group, being
somewhat ill informed (because that's the purpose of marketing), may opt for
Win 10 or even Win 8, not realizing that Win 7 is usually a better choice.

T
May 1st 15, 08:53 PM
On 04/29/2015 02:13 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Wasn't Frankenstein first applied to Windows 8 [Preview]? That would
> make 8.1 the Son of Frankenstein and Windows 10 would be the grandson of
> Frankenstein. It's obvious that using this term is less accurate than
> using the version numbers.

Think of 8.1 as Frankenstein the Elders' new set of dentures.

:-)

T
May 1st 15, 09:00 PM
On 04/30/2015 11:25 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 19:58:55 -0500, Rene Lamontagne > wrote:
>
>> On 4/28/2015 7:42 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 19:30:53 -0500, Rene Lamontagne > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/28/2015 4:01 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 15:50:35 -0500, Rene Lamontagne > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/28/2015 2:45 PM, T wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yep, another moron yelling The PC is Dead, The sky is falling, What a
>>>>>> stupid jerk
>>>>>
>>>>> What did he write which you felt was inaccurate or less than insightful?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What PC dilemma?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is that is your only criticism? Do you take issue with anything in the body of
>>> the article?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Basically he seems to be biased towards Apple and it shows badly in his
>> article, He certainly is not going to say anything good about Microsoft
>> therefore making his article rather useless.
>>
>
> Thanks for sharing your opinions.
>
> IMHO the article was insightful but relied too heavily upon jargon.
>
> In general, I feel Apple has invented and continues to employ the marketing and
> technology formulas / algorithms which make it's products, in select segments,
> appeal to a majority of consumers. Apple understands that human nature is to
> resist change, so, in general, Apple's user interface changes are more graduated
> than those of Microsoft, whereas MS seems to feel it appropriate to jam down our
> throats, on a regular basis, their shifts in UI paradigms.
>
> Additionally, Apple has been very successful in producing and selling products
> which smoothly integrate into most aspects of daily life. Microsoft still
> dominates the business desktop. As I am not prone to prognostication or
> speculation, I have no idea if MS will retain that dominance. It seems to me
> there currently exists a tremendous opportunity for Apple or some flavor of
> Linux to topple the king of the business hill.
>
> As more and more applications migrate to being web-hosted, the opportunities
> increase for more stable, more secure and less expensive desktop operating
> systems to become firmly entrenched in the business environment.
>
> As it seems the majority of consumers utilize technology for sound bite style
> communication, entertainment and multimedia, it is only logical that smartphones
> and tablets will far outstrip, in numbers, desktop workstations of all
> varieties.
>
> All that said, I am not found of the Apple UI paradigm, it seems to be designed
> more for those who employ fragmented thinking than for those whose thought
> processes are predominantly linear.
>
> I am quite fond of the approach used by various flavors of Linux and have been
> very impressed with RHEL for my enterprise servers and a number of my desktop
> workstations.
>
> The article was thought provoking, especially for those who approach it with an
> open mind and without prejudice, IMHO.
>

Hi Stormin',

A very thoughtful article. I very much enjoyed it.

Linux and Apple both have the same "catch 22" problem. They
are both far superior to Windows. But, few will develop
apps for the two because Linux's and Apple's install base is so
small. And, few will upgrade to Linux or Apple because there
are so few apps for them. Catch 22. (If Vista didn't change
that situation ...)

I was with a customer yesterday that had to rip out
his Mac because Quick Books for Mac does not support
pay role. (Quick Books for Mac is horrible anyway.)

-T

Michael Logies
May 1st 15, 10:22 PM
On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 01:51:20 -0400, ". . .winston"
> wrote:

>Whether we like it or not how we communicate has changed. Email is too
>burdensome and slow and counterproductive in the Enterprise environment
>(too much waste not adding value to company objectives).

Instant messaging has added possibilities of communication but cannot
replace email in a business environment. For legal reasons I (small
business owner) have to keep (and backup) emails for 10 years. Try
this with other means of electronic communications. Perhaps it`s
possible, but for email it`s established and cheap (my Thunderbird
contains 1.2 million emails, desktop search engines (X1, Copernic)
make use of them easy).

> In the next
>decade smart devices will become the primary means of data management.

What is smart in a device that is a stripped down, miniaturized
version of a full PC? I like my several Android devices, they have
replaced my PCs (Windows) for special purposes (feedly, navigation,
wheather forecasts, short emails), but cannot replace it fully.

Win 10 on new, stronger mobiles (supporting two, independant screens)
will be able turn every monitor with a keyboard into a full PC (first
video is in english):
http://www.chip.de/video/Microsoft-presents-Windows-10-Continuum-Feature-Video_78791266.html
Video: Microsoft presents: Windows 10 Continuum - Feature

But for security reasons I never would do confidential work (Quicken
(electronic banking), planning for clients) in such a mobile
environment. I need my private rooms for that. Or at least my own,
encrypted laptop, because monitors and keyboards by third parties can
be manipulated.

> Don't let the RC factor (resistance to change) become your mo.

I really like the outlook, that a Win 10 mobile device can turn
monitors into a terminal client for connecting to my terminal server
in office (RDP over Hamachi). But as written above, security will
often be a reason not to use this feature.

And Windows Phone is a bit too restricted at the moment, missing some
essential APIs (e. g. API for networking for apps like "Wifi Analyzer"
or "Fing" on Android):
http://forums.windowscentral.com/windows-phone-apps/235446-wi-fi-analyzer-possible-wp8.html
Perhaps that`s a reason, why a VPN app like Logmein Hamachi is not
available for Windows Phone:
http://community.logmein.com/t5/Hamachi/Windows-Phone/td-p/75535

(Hamachi runs on Android, at least on some...)

So at them moment I don`t believe, that MS will be able to pull me
back into a Windows only environment.

Regards

M.

Michael Logies
May 1st 15, 10:26 PM
On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 12:48:29 -0700, T > wrote:

>Speaking of old stuff, the legal, real estate, insurance fields
>will keep the fax machine around FOREVER!

19 years after founding my dental office with telephone and email
only, I finally gave in a few weeks ago and bought a fax machine
(Epson WorkForce Pro WF-4630DWF)...

Regards

M.

Michael Logies
May 1st 15, 10:31 PM
On Fri, 01 May 2015 20:15:16 +0000, Stormin' Norman
> wrote:

>Platform specific applications appear to have a limited future. For example,
>your client could have subscribed to the Quickbooks online service, which does
>include payroll, if I am not mistaken.

Putting essential business information into a web service of which no
one knows, whether it will be still available in 10 years? Sorry, I
much prefer Quicken on my XP in a VM (VMWare Player).
I don`t know, why the Mac had to be "pulled out" because of
Quickbooks. Adding a virtual machine with Windows would have sufficed,
I assume.

Regards

M.

Michael Logies
May 1st 15, 11:16 PM
On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 12:45:10 -0700, T > wrote:

>http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html

As far as I remember: Gruman is a Apple fan boy and was ridiculously
wrong about the development of the market share of Android.

I think "Continuum" will be the next big thing, because a mobile will
become everything most people need. A PC (Windows Phone) in your
pocket, and when coming home connect it wirelessly with your TV and a
keyboard and have a thing almost as good as a PC.

Microsoft with Win 10 may kill the PC for many people. MS is in the
business of selling software and services and mobile hardware, not in
selling desktop PCs or hardware for servers.

(Continuum is not for me, I assume, as I already wrote in this thread.
But as a health professional and computer geek my demands for IT are
higher than those of most consumers and office workers who will be
perfectly happy with a Windows Phone doubling as a desktop.)

Regards

M.

Michael Logies
May 1st 15, 11:23 PM
On Fri, 01 May 2015 21:53:02 +0000, Stormin' Norman
> wrote:

>Many cloud applications are just that, the application runs from the cloud but
>your data is still local. I am not sure how Intuit does it, but if you don't
>trust Intuit with your data online (backed up locally) then it would also make
>no sense to trust an Intuit application with your local data.

Local data without a working cloud app is almost useless. What do you
do with your data when Intuit goes out of business and you have no
local software as Quicken or Quickbooks for reading and analyzing this
data? In a VM I can easily move data and local software through many
years.

Regards

M.

Michael Logies
May 1st 15, 11:27 PM
On Fri, 01 May 2015 21:53:02 +0000, Stormin' Norman
> wrote:

>but if you don't
>trust Intuit with your data online (backed up locally) then it would also make
>no sense to trust an Intuit application with your local data.

And that`s also wrong because I can cut internet connectivity for the
VM and still use the software, keying in data manually. I even may
transfer online data via a safe way (USB-Stick, CD-ROM, shared
directory) from an internet connected PC to the VM, never exposing all
the financial data in the VM to the internet.

Regards

M.

Michael Logies
May 2nd 15, 12:11 AM
On Fri, 01 May 2015 22:56:21 +0000, Stormin' Norman
> wrote:

>However, if one wishes to utilize online integrated payments and numerous other
>features, applications such as Quickbooks must be able to communicate with the
>financial institution directly.

In germany we do this since 25 years or so. I have never written
cheques. Before online was available, Quicken generated a file with
the planned transfers and the file was brought to the bank on a disk.
And vice versa. Maybe this is still available, I don`t know.
In germany Quicken is sold, but it`s not from Intuit any more. Intuit
sold the german quicken brand some years ago to german Lexware. So I
don`t have to trust Intuit. ;-)

Regards

M.

T
May 2nd 15, 06:36 AM
On 04/30/2015 04:01 AM, mechanic wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 12:34:07 -0700, T wrote:
>
>> When I write SOF (w10), I always write in parenthesis what I mean,
>> so those not familiar with my writing can tell.
>
> I suspect many of those familiar with your writing have consigned it
> to the killfile so no worries there.
>

Hi Mechanic,

Some questions:

1) so why haven't you? If I did not know better, I
would think you like my writing.

2) when did you lose your sense of humor?

:-)

-T

T
May 2nd 15, 07:05 AM
On 05/01/2015 03:23 PM, Michael Logies wrote:
> On Fri, 01 May 2015 21:53:02 +0000, Stormin' Norman
> > wrote:
>
>> Many cloud applications are just that, the application runs from the cloud but
>> your data is still local. I am not sure how Intuit does it, but if you don't
>> trust Intuit with your data online (backed up locally) then it would also make
>> no sense to trust an Intuit application with your local data.
>
> Local data without a working cloud app is almost useless. What do you
> do with your data when Intuit goes out of business and you have no
> local software as Quicken or Quickbooks for reading and analyzing this
> data? In a VM I can easily move data and local software through many
> years.
>
> Regards
>
> M.
>

Hi Michael,

I find the "cloud" to be a bit creepy at times for the
reasons your outlines.

I think our bet bet is compilers that spit out
all three at the same time. Qoppa's PDF Studio
is one of these.

-T

Michael Logies
May 2nd 15, 07:56 AM
On Fri, 01 May 2015 23:40:00 +0000, Stormin' Norman
> wrote:

>It sounds as if you are a fortunate man, thanks for sharing.

I don`t trust Lexware, either. ;-)
My point was, that with local software you can choose how paranoid you
want to be. With a web app you can not.

And web apps take an important feed back mechanism out of the hand of
the consumer: If I don`t like a new version of a local software, I
don`t buy it, I don`t upgrade. And I have often stick with old
software versions for various reasons. With a web app the seller can
force on me what I have to use.

I like Android for being able to go back to old versions of apps,
because I can keep them locally when updating (automatically with "App
Backup & Restore"). When I left iOS, this was not possible there and I
believe, this is not possible with apps for Windows Phone?

So I think users of iOS may miss less when switching to a Windows
Phone with Win 10 and "Continuum" for their computing at home with a
big screen, keyboard, mouse. They both have to be happy with simpler
forms of computer use - I need more. As the sellings statistics of iOS
show, there is a big potential market for Microsoft for simpler
devices, simpler computer use. But Microsoft has to excel in execution
now, not only in concept.

Regards

M.

Michael Logies
May 2nd 15, 04:17 PM
On Sat, 02 May 2015 00:16:20 +0200, Michael Logies
> wrote:

>On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 12:45:10 -0700, T > wrote:
>
>>http://www.infoworld.com/article/2914152/microsoft-windows/windows-10-wont-save-the-pc.html
>
>As far as I remember: Gruman is a Apple fan boy and was ridiculously
>wrong about the development of the market share of Android.

I stopped reading him after this article (but sometimes he can do
better):

http://www.infoworld.com/article/2617049/android/the-end-of-android-as-we-know-it.html

The end of Android as we know it

Given three major threats brewing, it's hard to see how Google's
Android sustains its momentum any longer

InfoWorld | May 1, 2012

Android devices account for more than half of the smartphones sold or
at least shipped; sales figures are, to say the least, suspect. Yet a
growing number of signs indicates that Android has peaked as a
platform and will do a slow fade into either irrelevance or the kind
of anonymity the operating systems powering "regular" cellphones have
long known.

There's no single reason why Android seems to be on the cusp of a
decline -- and that's perhaps the most worrisome sign of all.
Precisely because there are multiple, independent factors rather than
a single Achilles' heel, Google can't address the issue with a single
silver bullet. I won't be surprised if in 2015, Android has faded to a
third or less of the smartphone market. I'm all but certain that
Android will be nearly nonexistent in the tablet market, (...)

Michael Logies
May 2nd 15, 04:43 PM
On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 01:51:20 -0400, ". . .winston"
> wrote:

>Whether we like it or not how we communicate has changed. Email is too
>burdensome and slow and counterproductive in the Enterprise environment

Here I liked Gruman. ;-)

http://www.infoworld.com/article/2614452/email-software/email-forever--why-social-apps-can-t-replace-it.html

Email forever! Why social apps can't replace it

Social app aficionados want to kill email, but their solutions are
worse than the supposed disease

InfoWorld | Mar 22, 2013

Google