Windows 10 sends data to Microsoft, despite privacy settings

[Johnny]

Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the user's
machine.

By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015


Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search, continue
sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.

New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services will
communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the user tells
them not to by the software's various privacy settings.

In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data, said
to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service, for reasons
unknown -- even on a local account that isn't connected to a Microsoft
account.

"It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars Technica
editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.

Cut!

"Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them should
really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all clear that
Windows 10 is doing that right now."

http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-despite-privacy-settings/

[Wildman[_2_]]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:

> Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the user's
> machine.
>
> By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
>
>
> Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search, continue
> sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.
>
> New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services will
> communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the user tells
> them not to by the software's various privacy settings.
>
> In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data, said
> to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service, for reasons
> unknown -- even on a local account that isn't connected to a Microsoft
> account.
>
> "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars Technica
> editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
>
> Cut!
>
> "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them should
> really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all clear that
> Windows 10 is doing that right now."
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-despite-privacy-settings/

It might be worse than you think. Draw you own conclusions.

http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10
and
http://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/
or
http://tinyurl.com/p6c76dc

--
<Wildman> GNU/Linux user #557453
C:\>debug
a 100
mov ax,707
mov cx,1
mov dx,80
int 13

g 100

[Johnny]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:29:06 -0500
Wildman > wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:
>
> > Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the
> > user's machine.
> >
> > By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
> >
> >
> > Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search, continue
> > sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.
> >
> > New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services will
> > communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the user
> > tells them not to by the software's various privacy settings.
> >
> > In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data,
> > said to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service, for
> > reasons unknown -- even on a local account that isn't connected to
> > a Microsoft account.
> >
> > "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars
> > Technica editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
> >
> > Cut!
> >
> > "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them
> > should really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all
> > clear that Windows 10 is doing that right now."
> >
> > http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-despite-privacy-settings/
>
> It might be worse than you think. Draw you own conclusions.
>
> http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10
> and
> http://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/
> or
> http://tinyurl.com/p6c76dc
>

Yes, an un-disableable always-on keylogger is worse than I thought. If
this turns out to be true, I don't believe anyone will be using it.

It seems to me some brilliant attorney could figure out a way to file a
class action lawsuit against Microsoft, even though everyone that uses
Windows 10 accepted the terms of agreement.

Everyone expects some basic privacy, especially when it comes to their
bank account information, and personal chats.

[Wildman[_2_]]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:51:33 -0500, Johnny wrote:

> Yes, an un-disableable always-on keylogger is worse than I thought. If
> this turns out to be true, I don't believe anyone will be using it.
>
> It seems to me some brilliant attorney could figure out a way to file a
> class action lawsuit against Microsoft, even though everyone that uses
> Windows 10 accepted the terms of agreement.
>
> Everyone expects some basic privacy, especially when it comes to their
> bank account information, and personal chats.

How many people are actually going to read a 45 page eula?
What if you do read it and decide you don't agree? What if
you have purchased the retail version? Getting a refund
would be next to impossible because most retailers will not
refund money on software that has been opened. Will MS
refund your money? Yea, right.

A person could read the eula before making a purchase if
you could find it. Ever tried to find a eula on MS's
website? Good luck with that. You sometimes can find
them on 3rd party websites but there is no guarantee
the eula is completely original and up to date.

I agree that a legal case could be made but it would be
an uphill battle.

--
<Wildman> GNU/Linux user #557453
The cow died so I don't need your bull!

[A.M]

On 2015-08-13 4:51 PM, Johnny wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:29:06 -0500
> Wildman > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:
>>
>>> Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the
>>> user's machine.
>>>
>>> By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
>>>
>>>
>>> Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search, continue
>>> sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.
>>>
>>> New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services will
>>> communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the user
>>> tells them not to by the software's various privacy settings.
>>>
>>> In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data,
>>> said to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service, for
>>> reasons unknown -- even on a local account that isn't connected to
>>> a Microsoft account.
>>>
>>> "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars
>>> Technica editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
>>>
>>> Cut!
>>>
>>> "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them
>>> should really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all
>>> clear that Windows 10 is doing that right now."
>>>
>>> http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-despite-privacy-settings/
>>
>> It might be worse than you think. Draw you own conclusions.
>>
>> http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10
>> and
>> http://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/
>> or
>> http://tinyurl.com/p6c76dc
>>
>
> Yes, an un-disableable always-on keylogger is worse than I thought. If
> this turns out to be true, I don't believe anyone will be using it.
>
> It seems to me some brilliant attorney could figure out a way to file a
> class action lawsuit against Microsoft, even though everyone that uses
> Windows 10 accepted the terms of agreement.
>
> Everyone expects some basic privacy, especially when it comes to their
> bank account information, and personal chats.

I think people are freaking out over nothing. The information being sent
is anonymous and only allows for better targeted ads and bug fixing. I
am against Microsoft facilitating data gathering for the NSA and the
FBI, but that only works if people uses Hotmail, OneDrive and Skype,
none of which I do myself, but what Windows does isn't as bad as people
are making it out to be.

If, however, you are very annoyed with this approach, you can always use
Linux if you don't feel that its use is a gigantic compromise.


--
A.M

Peter Köhlmann is such an exemplary Linux advocate that his family uses
Apple products.

[Johnny]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:58:29 -0400
"A.M" > wrote:

> On 2015-08-13 4:51 PM, Johnny wrote:
> > On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:29:06 -0500
> > Wildman > wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:
> >>
> >>> Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the
> >>> user's machine.
> >>>
> >>> By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search,
> >>> continue sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.
> >>>
> >>> New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services
> >>> will communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the
> >>> user tells them not to by the software's various privacy settings.
> >>>
> >>> In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data,
> >>> said to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service, for
> >>> reasons unknown -- even on a local account that isn't connected to
> >>> a Microsoft account.
> >>>
> >>> "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars
> >>> Technica editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
> >>>
> >>> Cut!
> >>>
> >>> "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them
> >>> should really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all
> >>> clear that Windows 10 is doing that right now."
> >>>
> >>> http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-despite-privacy-settings/
> >>
> >> It might be worse than you think. Draw you own conclusions.
> >>
> >> http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10
> >> and
> >> http://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/
> >> or
> >> http://tinyurl.com/p6c76dc
> >>
> >
> > Yes, an un-disableable always-on keylogger is worse than I
> > thought. If this turns out to be true, I don't believe anyone will
> > be using it.
> >
> > It seems to me some brilliant attorney could figure out a way to
> > file a class action lawsuit against Microsoft, even though everyone
> > that uses Windows 10 accepted the terms of agreement.
> >
> > Everyone expects some basic privacy, especially when it comes to
> > their bank account information, and personal chats.
>
> I think people are freaking out over nothing. The information being
> sent is anonymous and only allows for better targeted ads and bug
> fixing. I am against Microsoft facilitating data gathering for the
> NSA and the FBI, but that only works if people uses Hotmail, OneDrive
> and Skype, none of which I do myself, but what Windows does isn't as
> bad as people are making it out to be.
>
> If, however, you are very annoyed with this approach, you can always
> use Linux if you don't feel that its use is a gigantic compromise.
>
>

I do use Linux Mint full time, and as I have said, I only installed
Windows 10 to see how low Microsoft has stooped this time.

I don't feel like I should be discussing it, unless I have it installed
on my computer, and what you are saying is only your opinion, people
with the technical ability are telling us what information Microsoft is
really getting.

[A.M]

On 2015-08-13 7:11 PM, Johnny wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:58:29 -0400
> "A.M" > wrote:
>
>> On 2015-08-13 4:51 PM, Johnny wrote:
>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:29:06 -0500
>>> Wildman > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the
>>>>> user's machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search,
>>>>> continue sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.
>>>>>
>>>>> New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services
>>>>> will communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the
>>>>> user tells them not to by the software's various privacy settings.
>>>>>
>>>>> In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data,
>>>>> said to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service, for
>>>>> reasons unknown -- even on a local account that isn't connected to
>>>>> a Microsoft account.
>>>>>
>>>>> "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars
>>>>> Technica editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cut!
>>>>>
>>>>> "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them
>>>>> should really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all
>>>>> clear that Windows 10 is doing that right now."
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-despite-privacy-settings/
>>>>
>>>> It might be worse than you think. Draw you own conclusions.
>>>>
>>>> http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10
>>>> and
>>>> http://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/
>>>> or
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/p6c76dc
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, an un-disableable always-on keylogger is worse than I
>>> thought. If this turns out to be true, I don't believe anyone will
>>> be using it.
>>>
>>> It seems to me some brilliant attorney could figure out a way to
>>> file a class action lawsuit against Microsoft, even though everyone
>>> that uses Windows 10 accepted the terms of agreement.
>>>
>>> Everyone expects some basic privacy, especially when it comes to
>>> their bank account information, and personal chats.
>>
>> I think people are freaking out over nothing. The information being
>> sent is anonymous and only allows for better targeted ads and bug
>> fixing. I am against Microsoft facilitating data gathering for the
>> NSA and the FBI, but that only works if people uses Hotmail, OneDrive
>> and Skype, none of which I do myself, but what Windows does isn't as
>> bad as people are making it out to be.
>>
>> If, however, you are very annoyed with this approach, you can always
>> use Linux if you don't feel that its use is a gigantic compromise.
>>
>>
>
> I do use Linux Mint full time, and as I have said, I only installed
> Windows 10 to see how low Microsoft has stooped this time.
>
> I don't feel like I should be discussing it, unless I have it installed
> on my computer, and what you are saying is only your opinion, people
> with the technical ability are telling us what information Microsoft is
> really getting.

Except that these "technical" people haven't divulged much of anything
right now. At best, they are theorizing about what Microsoft might be
doing with the data. As far as I can tell, the information is simply
being used to build a better portrait of the user so as to make them
more profitable to the company issuing the free operating system by
targeting better ads and providing more pertinent help when requested by
the user as well as helping to solve whatever widespread problems might
arise. I wouldn't worry about it at all but would indeed encourage
anyone to get rid of a Microsoft-branded account. We _know_ they monitor
OneDrive, Outlook and Skype whereas we have no reason yet to believe
that Windows is doing anything immoral.

--
A.M

Peter Köhlmann is such an exemplary Linux advocate that his family uses
Apple products.

[John Aldred]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:

> Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the user's
> machine.
>
> By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
>
>
> Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search, continue
> sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.
>
> New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services will
> communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the user tells
> them not to by the software's various privacy settings.
>
> In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data, said
> to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service, for reasons
> unknown -- even on a local account that isn't connected to a Microsoft
> account.
>
> "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars Technica
> editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
>
> Cut!
>
> "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them should
> really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all clear that
> Windows 10 is doing that right now."
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-despite-
privacy-settings/

Certainly Microsoft can identify any users machine. Each machine has a
unique identity linked to the Windows 10 licence. If the machine is
logged on using a Microsoft account then the users identity is known.

Those of us on the Microsoft Insider Program who were previewing the
various pre-release builds were well aware of the data gathering which we
were agreeing to as part of the development process.

My fear was that having demonstrated the capability to closely monitor a
users machine during the development phase would this cease on general
release. How much of the monitoring could be genuinely turned off by the
user.

I am quite happy to use windows 10, but with Firefox + various privacy
plug-ins, Thunderbird mail, and Duckduckgo as the search engine in
Firefox.

[Johnny]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:41:38 -0500
John Aldred > wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:
>
> > Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the
> > user's machine.
> >
> > By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
> >
> >
> > Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search, continue
> > sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.
> >
> > New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services will
> > communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the user
> > tells them not to by the software's various privacy settings.
> >
> > In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data,
> > said to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service, for
> > reasons unknown -- even on a local account that isn't connected to
> > a Microsoft account.
> >
> > "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars
> > Technica editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
> >
> > Cut!
> >
> > "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them
> > should really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all
> > clear that Windows 10 is doing that right now."
> >
> > http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-despite-
> privacy-settings/
>
> Certainly Microsoft can identify any users machine. Each machine has
> a unique identity linked to the Windows 10 licence. If the machine is
> logged on using a Microsoft account then the users identity is known.
>
> Those of us on the Microsoft Insider Program who were previewing the
> various pre-release builds were well aware of the data gathering
> which we were agreeing to as part of the development process.
>
> My fear was that having demonstrated the capability to closely
> monitor a users machine during the development phase would this cease
> on general release. How much of the monitoring could be genuinely
> turned off by the user.
>
> I am quite happy to use windows 10, but with Firefox + various
> privacy plug-ins, Thunderbird mail, and Duckduckgo as the search
> engine in Firefox.

If Microsoft is using a keylogger it doesn't matter what you are using.

[. . .winston]

Johnny wrote on 08/13/2015 4:51 PM:
> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:29:06 -0500
> Wildman > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:
>>
>>> Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the
>>> user's machine.
>>>
>>> By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
>>>
>>>
>>> Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search, continue
>>> sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.
>>>
>>> New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services will
>>> communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the user
>>> tells them not to by the software's various privacy settings.
>>>
>>> In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data,
>>> said to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service, for
>>> reasons unknown -- even on a local account that isn't connected to
>>> a Microsoft account.
>>>
>>> "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars
>>> Technica editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
>>>
>>> Cut!
>>>
>>> "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them
>>> should really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all
>>> clear that Windows 10 is doing that right now."
>>>
>>> http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-despite-privacy-settings/
>>
>> It might be worse than you think. Draw you own conclusions.
>>
>> http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10
>> and
>> http://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/
>> or
>> http://tinyurl.com/p6c76dc
>>
>
> Yes, an un-disableable always-on keylogger is worse than I thought. If
> this turns out to be true, I don't believe anyone will be using it.
>
> It seems to me some brilliant attorney could figure out a way to file a
> class action lawsuit against Microsoft, even though everyone that uses
> Windows 10 accepted the terms of agreement.
>
> Everyone expects some basic privacy, especially when it comes to their
> bank account information, and personal chats.
>
Quite impossible. No brilliant attorney would attempt to do so knowing
full well that an arbitration ruling rarely overturns a TOS usage
agreement (don't recall one ever against MSFT)

--
...winston
msft mvp windows experience

[. . .winston]

Wildman wrote on 08/13/2015 5:51 PM:
>
> Getting a refund
> would be next to impossible because most retailers will not
> refund money on software that has been opened. Will MS
> refund your money? Yea, right.

Yes.

>
> A person could read the eula before making a purchase if
> you could find it. Ever tried to find a eula on MS's
> website? Good luck with that.

Not aware of Google or Bing or Yahoo search ?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Windows+EULA
- first item


> I agree that a legal case could be made but it would be
> an uphill battle.
>
It would be legal climb ending up in arbitration.


--
...winston
msft mvp windows experience

[Dino]

A.M wrote:
> On 2015-08-13 7:11 PM, Johnny wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:58:29 -0400
>> "A.M" > wrote:
>>
>>> On 2015-08-13 4:51 PM, Johnny wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:29:06 -0500
>>>> Wildman > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the
>>>>>> user's machine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search,
>>>>>> continue sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services
>>>>>> will communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the
>>>>>> user tells them not to by the software's various privacy settings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data,
>>>>>> said to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service, for
>>>>>> reasons unknown -- even on a local account that isn't connected to
>>>>>> a Microsoft account.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars
>>>>>> Technica editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cut!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them
>>>>>> should really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all
>>>>>> clear that Windows 10 is doing that right now."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-despite-privacy-settings/
>>>>> It might be worse than you think. Draw you own conclusions.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10
>>>>> and
>>>>> http://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/
>>>>> or
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/p6c76dc
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, an un-disableable always-on keylogger is worse than I
>>>> thought. If this turns out to be true, I don't believe anyone will
>>>> be using it.
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me some brilliant attorney could figure out a way to
>>>> file a class action lawsuit against Microsoft, even though everyone
>>>> that uses Windows 10 accepted the terms of agreement.
>>>>
>>>> Everyone expects some basic privacy, especially when it comes to
>>>> their bank account information, and personal chats.
>>> I think people are freaking out over nothing. The information being
>>> sent is anonymous and only allows for better targeted ads and bug
>>> fixing. I am against Microsoft facilitating data gathering for the
>>> NSA and the FBI, but that only works if people uses Hotmail, OneDrive
>>> and Skype, none of which I do myself, but what Windows does isn't as
>>> bad as people are making it out to be.
>>>
>>> If, however, you are very annoyed with this approach, you can always
>>> use Linux if you don't feel that its use is a gigantic compromise.
>>>
>>>
>> I do use Linux Mint full time, and as I have said, I only installed
>> Windows 10 to see how low Microsoft has stooped this time.
>>
>> I don't feel like I should be discussing it, unless I have it installed
>> on my computer, and what you are saying is only your opinion, people
>> with the technical ability are telling us what information Microsoft is
>> really getting.
>
> Except that these "technical" people haven't divulged much of anything
> right now. At best, they are theorizing about what Microsoft might be
> doing with the data. As far as I can tell, the information is simply
> being used to build a better portrait of the user so as to make them
> more profitable to the company issuing the free operating system by
> targeting better ads and providing more pertinent help when requested by
> the user as well as helping to solve whatever widespread problems might
> arise. I wouldn't worry about it at all but would indeed encourage
> anyone to get rid of a Microsoft-branded account. We _know_ they monitor
> OneDrive, Outlook and Skype whereas we have no reason yet to believe
> that Windows is doing anything immoral.
>

http://www.techworm.net/2014/10/microsofts-windows-10-permission-watch-every-move.html

[Darklight]

Johnny wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:58:29 -0400
> "A.M" > wrote:
>
>> On 2015-08-13 4:51 PM, Johnny wrote:
>> > On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:29:06 -0500
>> > Wildman > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the
>> >>> user's machine.
>> >>>
>> >>> By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search,
>> >>> continue sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.
>> >>>
>> >>> New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services
>> >>> will communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the
>> >>> user tells them not to by the software's various privacy settings.
>> >>>
>> >>> In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data,
>> >>> said to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service, for
>> >>> reasons unknown -- even on a local account that isn't connected to
>> >>> a Microsoft account.
>> >>>
>> >>> "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars
>> >>> Technica editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
>> >>>
>> >>> Cut!
>> >>>
>> >>> "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them
>> >>> should really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all
>> >>> clear that Windows 10 is doing that right now."
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-despite-privacy-settings/
>> >>
>> >> It might be worse than you think. Draw you own conclusions.
>> >>
>> >> http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10
>> >> and
>> >> http://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/
>> >> or
>> >> http://tinyurl.com/p6c76dc
>> >>
>> >
>> > Yes, an un-disableable always-on keylogger is worse than I
>> > thought. If this turns out to be true, I don't believe anyone will
>> > be using it.
>> >
>> > It seems to me some brilliant attorney could figure out a way to
>> > file a class action lawsuit against Microsoft, even though everyone
>> > that uses Windows 10 accepted the terms of agreement.
>> >
>> > Everyone expects some basic privacy, especially when it comes to
>> > their bank account information, and personal chats.
>>
>> I think people are freaking out over nothing. The information being
>> sent is anonymous and only allows for better targeted ads and bug
>> fixing. I am against Microsoft facilitating data gathering for the
>> NSA and the FBI, but that only works if people uses Hotmail, OneDrive
>> and Skype, none of which I do myself, but what Windows does isn't as
>> bad as people are making it out to be.
>>
>> If, however, you are very annoyed with this approach, you can always
>> use Linux if you don't feel that its use is a gigantic compromise.
>>
>>
>
> I do use Linux Mint full time, and as I have said, I only installed
> Windows 10 to see how low Microsoft has stooped this time.

If you think linux is immune to privacy violations you should rethink.
I am a linux user. Question in any os how does it update? Or even know what
to update? have you compared the gnome desktop to windows 8, 8.1 and 10?

can you not see the similarity's!
>
> I don't feel like I should be discussing it, unless I have it installed
> on my computer, and what you are saying is only your opinion, people
> with the technical ability are telling us what information Microsoft is
> really getting.

[Bucky Breeder[_4_]]

Dino > posted this via
:
>
> http://www.techworm.net/2014/10/microsofts-windows-10-permission-watch-ev
> ery-move.html

If they publish a sex-book based on my exploits with the stewardesses (PC:
"Flight Safety Attendants", but that includes the guys and I only do the
ladies) from KDEN, KAPA, KBJC, KFTG, KBDU and KEIK, they're going to have a
*big* problem because I video record and archive every interlude - mostly
to protect myself from potential false accusations of "rape", etc., but
also to refamiliarize myself with returning ladies I haven't seen in a
while - and I own the exclusive rights to these videos and the all the
intellectual content therein, IAW the releases that I surreptitiously -
whoops, "discretely" - have the ladies sign when I know they're too
preoccupied to read the content.

So, MSFT *can* "watch every move"; but they'd better NOT distribute or
publicize any of it!

TGIF

--

I AM Bucky Breeder, (*(^; and,
It's like Yogi Berra always used to say:
"The future ain't what it used to be!"

<http://tinyurl.com/ocnqvgq>

[Mike Paff]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:58:29 -0400, "A.M" > wrote:
>
>I think people are freaking out over nothing. The information being sent
>is anonymous and only allows for better targeted ads and bug fixing.

How can the information be both anonymous and used for targetted ads?
Those two conditions seem mutually exclusive to me.

[Wildman[_2_]]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:41:54 -0400, . . .winston wrote:

> Wildman wrote on 08/13/2015 5:51 PM:
>>
>> Getting a refund
>> would be next to impossible because most retailers will not
>> refund money on software that has been opened. Will MS
>> refund your money? Yea, right.
>
> Yes.

Do you mean yes MS will refund the money?

>>
>> A person could read the eula before making a purchase if
>> you could find it. Ever tried to find a eula on MS's
>> website? Good luck with that.
>
> Not aware of Google or Bing or Yahoo search ?
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=Windows+EULA
> - first item

I could not get past the first page of the MS Store.
It just set there frozen with the little circle going
round and round. Why is the eula in the Store anyway.
Am I going to have to pay for it? Why don't you post
a direct link to the eula, if you can?

>> I agree that a legal case could be made but it would be
>> an uphill battle.
>>
> It would be legal climb ending up in arbitration.

At least we agree on something.

--
<Wildman> GNU/Linux user #557453
The little toe is a precision geo-location
instrument that can easily find the corner
of the couch under low-level light.

[A.M]

On 2015-08-13 8:03 PM, Johnny wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:41:38 -0500
> John Aldred > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:
>>
>>> Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the
>>> user's machine.
>>>
>>> By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
>>>
>>>
>>> Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search, continue
>>> sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.
>>>
>>> New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services will
>>> communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the user
>>> tells them not to by the software's various privacy settings.
>>>
>>> In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data,
>>> said to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service, for
>>> reasons unknown -- even on a local account that isn't connected to
>>> a Microsoft account.
>>>
>>> "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars
>>> Technica editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
>>>
>>> Cut!
>>>
>>> "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them
>>> should really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all
>>> clear that Windows 10 is doing that right now."
>>>
>>> http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-despite-
>> privacy-settings/
>>
>> Certainly Microsoft can identify any users machine. Each machine has
>> a unique identity linked to the Windows 10 licence. If the machine is
>> logged on using a Microsoft account then the users identity is known.
>>
>> Those of us on the Microsoft Insider Program who were previewing the
>> various pre-release builds were well aware of the data gathering
>> which we were agreeing to as part of the development process.
>>
>> My fear was that having demonstrated the capability to closely
>> monitor a users machine during the development phase would this cease
>> on general release. How much of the monitoring could be genuinely
>> turned off by the user.
>>
>> I am quite happy to use windows 10, but with Firefox + various
>> privacy plug-ins, Thunderbird mail, and Duckduckgo as the search
>> engine in Firefox.
>
> If Microsoft is using a keylogger it doesn't matter what you are using.

If Microsoft is indeed using a keylogger, I am finishing the Witcher 3
and removing its product for good.


--
A.M

[A.M]

On 2015-08-13 10:44 PM, Dino wrote:
> A.M wrote:
>> On 2015-08-13 7:11 PM, Johnny wrote:
>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:58:29 -0400
>>> "A.M" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2015-08-13 4:51 PM, Johnny wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:29:06 -0500
>>>>> Wildman > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the
>>>>>>> user's machine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search,
>>>>>>> continue sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services
>>>>>>> will communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the
>>>>>>> user tells them not to by the software's various privacy settings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data,
>>>>>>> said to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service, for
>>>>>>> reasons unknown -- even on a local account that isn't connected to
>>>>>>> a Microsoft account.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars
>>>>>>> Technica editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cut!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them
>>>>>>> should really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all
>>>>>>> clear that Windows 10 is doing that right now."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-despite-privacy-settings/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It might be worse than you think. Draw you own conclusions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> http://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/p6c76dc
>>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, an un-disableable always-on keylogger is worse than I
>>>>> thought. If this turns out to be true, I don't believe anyone will
>>>>> be using it.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems to me some brilliant attorney could figure out a way to
>>>>> file a class action lawsuit against Microsoft, even though everyone
>>>>> that uses Windows 10 accepted the terms of agreement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone expects some basic privacy, especially when it comes to
>>>>> their bank account information, and personal chats.
>>>> I think people are freaking out over nothing. The information being
>>>> sent is anonymous and only allows for better targeted ads and bug
>>>> fixing. I am against Microsoft facilitating data gathering for the
>>>> NSA and the FBI, but that only works if people uses Hotmail, OneDrive
>>>> and Skype, none of which I do myself, but what Windows does isn't as
>>>> bad as people are making it out to be.
>>>>
>>>> If, however, you are very annoyed with this approach, you can always
>>>> use Linux if you don't feel that its use is a gigantic compromise.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I do use Linux Mint full time, and as I have said, I only installed
>>> Windows 10 to see how low Microsoft has stooped this time.
>>>
>>> I don't feel like I should be discussing it, unless I have it installed
>>> on my computer, and what you are saying is only your opinion, people
>>> with the technical ability are telling us what information Microsoft is
>>> really getting.
>>
>> Except that these "technical" people haven't divulged much of anything
>> right now. At best, they are theorizing about what Microsoft might be
>> doing with the data. As far as I can tell, the information is simply
>> being used to build a better portrait of the user so as to make them
>> more profitable to the company issuing the free operating system by
>> targeting better ads and providing more pertinent help when requested by
>> the user as well as helping to solve whatever widespread problems might
>> arise. I wouldn't worry about it at all but would indeed encourage
>> anyone to get rid of a Microsoft-branded account. We _know_ they monitor
>> OneDrive, Outlook and Skype whereas we have no reason yet to believe
>> that Windows is doing anything immoral.
>>
>
> http://www.techworm.net/2014/10/microsofts-windows-10-permission-watch-every-move.html

That's for the preview and used to help in determining where the bugs
appeared and why they did. That functionality is most likely no longer
present in the final product or at the very least limited.


--
A.M

[. . .winston[_2_]]

Wildman wrote on 08/14/2015 12:02 PM:
> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:41:54 -0400, . . .winston wrote:
>
>> Wildman wrote on 08/13/2015 5:51 PM:
>>>
>>> Getting a refund
>>> would be next to impossible because most retailers will not
>>> refund money on software that has been opened. Will MS
>>> refund your money? Yea, right.
>>
>> Yes.
>
> Do you mean yes MS will refund the money?
>
>>>
>>> A person could read the eula before making a purchase if
>>> you could find it. Ever tried to find a eula on MS's
>>> website? Good luck with that.
>>
>> Not aware of Google or Bing or Yahoo search ?
>>
>> https://www.google.com/search?q=Windows+EULA
>> - first item
>
> I could not get past the first page of the MS Store.
> It just set there frozen with the little circle going
> round and round. Why is the eula in the Store anyway.
> Am I going to have to pay for it? Why don't you post
> a direct link to the eula, if you can?
>
>>> I agree that a legal case could be made but it would be
>>> an uphill battle.
>>>
>> It would be legal climb ending up in arbitration.
>
> At least we agree on something.
>

Yes. MSFT's has a process for refund on the purchase of software if the
retailer won't honor. Start by looking in the EULA.


The EULA look up site can take some time - each entry in the successive
dialog boxes narrows the search thus one may see the spinning
cursor..though only two boxes are necessary (choose retail or
preinstall, then as an example enter 'Windows 10 English' in the search
box, press Go.
- access is free
- at this end, a few minutes ago...it took about 15 seconds to pull up
the Win10 English EULA. Once done the browser address bar will provide a
direct link url.
e.g. For Win10 (English) you get this after entering the correct data

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/UseTerms_Retail_Windows_10_English.htm

Why is the EULA in the Store ?
- MSFT is getting away from the 5x5 product key. FYI - Win10's upgrade
license and device footprint (MSFT refers to it as Entitlement) for
upgraded devices is retained in the MSFT Store.




--
...winston
msft mvp windows experience

[John Aldred]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 19:03:50 -0500, Johnny wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:41:38 -0500 John Aldred
> > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:
>>
>> > Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the
>> > user's machine.
>> >
>> > By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
>> >
>> >
>> > Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search, continue
>> > sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.
>> >
>> > New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services will
>> > communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the user
>> > tells them not to by the software's various privacy settings.
>> >
>> > In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data,
>> > said to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service, for
>> > reasons unknown -- even on a local account that isn't connected to a
>> > Microsoft account.
>> >
>> > "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars
>> > Technica editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
>> >
>> > Cut!
>> >
>> > "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them should
>> > really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all clear that
>> > Windows 10 is doing that right now."
>> >
>> > http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-
despite-
>> privacy-settings/
>>
>> Certainly Microsoft can identify any users machine. Each machine has a
>> unique identity linked to the Windows 10 licence. If the machine is
>> logged on using a Microsoft account then the users identity is known.
>>
>> Those of us on the Microsoft Insider Program who were previewing the
>> various pre-release builds were well aware of the data gathering which
>> we were agreeing to as part of the development process.
>>
>> My fear was that having demonstrated the capability to closely monitor
>> a users machine during the development phase would this cease on
>> general release. How much of the monitoring could be genuinely turned
>> off by the user.
>>
>> I am quite happy to use windows 10, but with Firefox + various privacy
>> plug-ins, Thunderbird mail, and Duckduckgo as the search engine in
>> Firefox.
>
> If Microsoft is using a keylogger it doesn't matter what you are using.

Indeed, but they would have to be extremely interested in what I was
typing to bother with that. I know they could/can collect input but as I
have not used Windows for anything "sensitive" for the past 12 years and
continue with that policy the best of luck to them!

The thing that bothers me slightly is that MS can uniquely identify every
Windows device, and if taken together with a MS account would hold a
large amount of data about the user. For instance, name, DOB, Post Code/
Zip, telephone number, email address; plus any personal profiles they
manage to put together for targeted advertising. To my mind this would
give them a much more comprehensive database than any government agency
on the planet. Perhaps I'm just being paranoid :-(

[Johnny]

On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:12:48 -0500
John Aldred > wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 19:03:50 -0500, Johnny wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:41:38 -0500 John Aldred
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:
> >>
> >> > Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the
> >> > user's machine.
> >> >
> >> > By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search,
> >> > continue sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned
> >> > off.
> >> >
> >> > New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services
> >> > will communicate with the software giant's servers, even when
> >> > the user tells them not to by the software's various privacy
> >> > settings.
> >> >
> >> > In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send
> >> > data, said to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service,
> >> > for reasons unknown -- even on a local account that isn't
> >> > connected to a Microsoft account.
> >> >
> >> > "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars
> >> > Technica editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
> >> >
> >> > Cut!
> >> >
> >> > "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them
> >> > should really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all
> >> > clear that Windows 10 is doing that right now."
> >> >
> >> > http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-
> despite-
> >> privacy-settings/
> >>
> >> Certainly Microsoft can identify any users machine. Each machine
> >> has a unique identity linked to the Windows 10 licence. If the
> >> machine is logged on using a Microsoft account then the users
> >> identity is known.
> >>
> >> Those of us on the Microsoft Insider Program who were previewing
> >> the various pre-release builds were well aware of the data
> >> gathering which we were agreeing to as part of the development
> >> process.
> >>
> >> My fear was that having demonstrated the capability to closely
> >> monitor a users machine during the development phase would this
> >> cease on general release. How much of the monitoring could be
> >> genuinely turned off by the user.
> >>
> >> I am quite happy to use windows 10, but with Firefox + various
> >> privacy plug-ins, Thunderbird mail, and Duckduckgo as the search
> >> engine in Firefox.
> >
> > If Microsoft is using a keylogger it doesn't matter what you are
> > using.
>
> Indeed, but they would have to be extremely interested in what I was
> typing to bother with that. I know they could/can collect input but
> as I have not used Windows for anything "sensitive" for the past 12
> years and continue with that policy the best of luck to them!
>
> The thing that bothers me slightly is that MS can uniquely identify
> every Windows device, and if taken together with a MS account would
> hold a large amount of data about the user. For instance, name, DOB,
> Post Code/ Zip, telephone number, email address; plus any personal
> profiles they manage to put together for targeted advertising. To my
> mind this would give them a much more comprehensive database than any
> government agency on the planet. Perhaps I'm just being paranoid :-(

I don't think you are being paranoid. I believe Microsoft is gathering
that information for our government.

[John Aldred]

On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:46:46 -0400, . . .winston wrote:

> Wildman wrote on 08/14/2015 12:02 PM:
>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:41:54 -0400, . . .winston wrote:
>>
>>> Wildman wrote on 08/13/2015 5:51 PM:
>>>>
>>>> Getting a refund would be next to impossible because most retailers
>>>> will not refund money on software that has been opened. Will MS
>>>> refund your money? Yea, right.
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>
>> Do you mean yes MS will refund the money?
>>
>>
>>>> A person could read the eula before making a purchase if you could
>>>> find it. Ever tried to find a eula on MS's website? Good luck with
>>>> that.
>>>
>>> Not aware of Google or Bing or Yahoo search ?
>>>
>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=Windows+EULA - first item
>>
>> I could not get past the first page of the MS Store. It just set there
>> frozen with the little circle going round and round. Why is the eula
>> in the Store anyway. Am I going to have to pay for it? Why don't you
>> post a direct link to the eula, if you can?
>>
>>>> I agree that a legal case could be made but it would be an uphill
>>>> battle.
>>>>
>>> It would be legal climb ending up in arbitration.
>>
>> At least we agree on something.
>>
>>
> Yes. MSFT's has a process for refund on the purchase of software if the
> retailer won't honor. Start by looking in the EULA.
>
>
> The EULA look up site can take some time - each entry in the successive
> dialog boxes narrows the search thus one may see the spinning
> cursor..though only two boxes are necessary (choose retail or
> preinstall, then as an example enter 'Windows 10 English' in the search
> box, press Go.
> - access is free - at this end, a few minutes ago...it took about 15
> seconds to pull up
> the Win10 English EULA. Once done the browser address bar will provide a
> direct link url.
> e.g. For Win10 (English) you get this after entering the correct data
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/
UseTerms_Retail_Windows_10_English.htm
>
> Why is the EULA in the Store ?
> - MSFT is getting away from the 5x5 product key. FYI - Win10's upgrade
> license and device footprint (MSFT refers to it as Entitlement) for
> upgraded devices is retained in the MSFT Store.

I think the more interesting (alarming) document is the Privacy statement
referred to in the EULA.
http://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/privacystatement/default.aspx

[John Aldred]

On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:20:52 -0500, Johnny wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:12:48 -0500 John Aldred
> > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 19:03:50 -0500, Johnny wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:41:38 -0500 John Aldred
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:47:18 -0500, Johnny wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Some of the information sent back to Microsoft can identify the
>> >> > user's machine.
>> >> >
>> >> > By Zack Whittaker for Zero Day | August 13, 2015
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Some Windows 10 features, such as Cortana and Bing search,
>> >> > continue sending data to Microsoft, even when they are turned off.
>> >> >
>> >> > New analysis by Ars Technica showed that some apps and services
>> >> > will communicate with the software giant's servers, even when the
>> >> > user tells them not to by the software's various privacy settings.
>> >> >
>> >> > In one example, a Windows 10 machine would periodically send data,
>> >> > said to be used for OneDrive, the company's cloud service,
>> >> > for reasons unknown -- even on a local account that isn't
>> >> > connected to a Microsoft account.
>> >> >
>> >> > "It's not clear why any data is being sent at all," wrote Ars
>> >> > Technica editor Peter Bright in a blog post Thursday.
>> >> >
>> >> > Cut!
>> >> >
>> >> > "Disabling these services for those who don't want to use them
>> >> > should really disable them," said Bright. "And it's not at all
>> >> > clear that Windows 10 is doing that right now."
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-sends-data-to-microsoft-
>> despite-
>> >> privacy-settings/
>> >>
>> >> Certainly Microsoft can identify any users machine. Each machine has
>> >> a unique identity linked to the Windows 10 licence. If the machine
>> >> is logged on using a Microsoft account then the users identity is
>> >> known.
>> >>
>> >> Those of us on the Microsoft Insider Program who were previewing the
>> >> various pre-release builds were well aware of the data gathering
>> >> which we were agreeing to as part of the development process.
>> >>
>> >> My fear was that having demonstrated the capability to closely
>> >> monitor a users machine during the development phase would this
>> >> cease on general release. How much of the monitoring could be
>> >> genuinely turned off by the user.
>> >>
>> >> I am quite happy to use windows 10, but with Firefox + various
>> >> privacy plug-ins, Thunderbird mail, and Duckduckgo as the search
>> >> engine in Firefox.
>> >
>> > If Microsoft is using a keylogger it doesn't matter what you are
>> > using.
>>
>> Indeed, but they would have to be extremely interested in what I was
>> typing to bother with that. I know they could/can collect input but as
>> I have not used Windows for anything "sensitive" for the past 12 years
>> and continue with that policy the best of luck to them!
>>
>> The thing that bothers me slightly is that MS can uniquely identify
>> every Windows device, and if taken together with a MS account would
>> hold a large amount of data about the user. For instance, name, DOB,
>> Post Code/ Zip, telephone number, email address; plus any personal
>> profiles they manage to put together for targeted advertising. To my
>> mind this would give them a much more comprehensive database than any
>> government agency on the planet. Perhaps I'm just being paranoid :-(
>
> I don't think you are being paranoid. I believe Microsoft is gathering
> that information for our government.

And no doubt they will share it with ours!

[s|b]

On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:20:52 -0500, Johnny wrote:

> I don't think you are being paranoid. I believe Microsoft is gathering
> that information for our government.

"our" ?

--
s|b

[s|b]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:29:06 -0500, Wildman wrote:

> It might be worse than you think. Draw you own conclusions.
>
> http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10

<quote>

Note: Some readers have commented that the original source for the
article is of questionably validity. If anyone can confirm or refute the
original author's finding with actual data, please let me know in the
comments, and I'll update this post accordingly.

</quote>

--
s|b

[Andy Burns[_3_]]

s|b wrote:

> Note: Some readers have commented that the original source for the
> article is of questionably validity. If anyone can confirm or refute the
> original author's finding with actual data, please let me know in the
> comments, and I'll update this post accordingly.

Well it certainly got me interested ... I looked for "suspicious" files
that were being constantly written to, searched files for key sequences
I'd recently typed and looked at http traffic that wasn't from
foreground programs with wireshark, I didn't go so far as to set up a
MITM proxy for the https stuff though ... but I didn't see anything
worrying.

[s|b]

On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:16:18 +0100, Darklight wrote:

> If you think linux is immune to privacy violations you should rethink.
> I am a linux user. Question in any os how does it update? Or even know what
> to update?

Apples and oranges. Of course data is exchanged if you want to update
your OS. Have you read what's in

<https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/privacystatement/default.aspx> ?

> have you compared the gnome desktop to windows 8, 8.1 and 10?
>
> can you not see the similarity's!

Could you name some? (I'm using W7 on my main PC and Xubuntu on
another.)

--
s|b

[John Aldred]

On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:16:18 +0100, Darklight wrote:



> If you think linux is immune to privacy violations you should rethink.
> I am a linux user. Question in any os how does it update? Or even know
> what to update? have you compared the gnome desktop to windows 8, 8.1
> and 10?
>
> can you not see the similarity's!

Gathering the necessary data to update a file system is one thing.
Gathering personal information about the user and building a profile for
targeted advertising is quite different to my mind.
I use the GNOME3 desktop myself. Yes there are similarities. Hot corners
that cause a sidebar to pop out; virtual desktops; full page menu with
large icons. Makes windows 8.1 and 10 look like familiar territory in
some respects :-)

[John Aldred]

On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 17:42:36 -0500, Wildman wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:16:18 +0100, Darklight wrote:
>
>> If you think linux is immune to privacy violations you should rethink.
>> I am a linux user. Question in any os how does it update? Or even know
>> what to update? have you compared the gnome desktop to windows 8, 8.1
>> and 10?
>
> You are right about Gnome (and Unity). The shopping lens was not a good
> idea. That is one of the reasons I quite using Ubuntu. OTOH all the
> Gnome and Unity snooping can easily be stopped by uninstalling
> zeitgeist.
>
I have Ubuntu GNOME 14.04 installed but no shopping lens or zeitgeist.

[Wildman[_2_]]

On Sat, 15 Aug 2015 15:04:21 -0500, John Aldred wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 17:42:36 -0500, Wildman wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:16:18 +0100, Darklight wrote:
>>
>>> If you think linux is immune to privacy violations you should rethink.
>>> I am a linux user. Question in any os how does it update? Or even know
>>> what to update? have you compared the gnome desktop to windows 8, 8.1
>>> and 10?
>>
>> You are right about Gnome (and Unity). The shopping lens was not a good
>> idea. That is one of the reasons I quite using Ubuntu. OTOH all the
>> Gnome and Unity snooping can easily be stopped by uninstalling
>> zeitgeist.
>>
> I have Ubuntu GNOME 14.04 installed but no shopping lens or zeitgeist.

I believe the shopping lens is actually part of Unity.

--
<Wildman> GNU/Linux user #557453
The cow died so I don't need your bull!

[Wildman[_2_]]

On Sat, 15 Aug 2015 20:17:38 +0200, s|b wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:29:06 -0500, Wildman wrote:
>
>> It might be worse than you think. Draw you own conclusions.
>>
>> http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10
>
> <quote>
>
> Note: Some readers have commented that the original source for the
> article is of questionably validity. If anyone can confirm or refute the
> original author's finding with actual data, please let me know in the
> comments, and I'll update this post accordingly.
>
> </quote>

The other link I post that you snipped gives some
credibility.

--
<Wildman> GNU/Linux user #557453
The cow died so I don't need your bull!

[Roger Blake[_2_]]

On 2015-08-16, Wildman > wrote:
> I believe the shopping lens is actually part of Unity.

I'm pretty sure the Xfce version of Ubuntu (Xubuntu) doesn't have any
of that stuff. It is disappointing that Ubuntu went in that direction
with their core release but there are plenty of alternatives.

On the other hand, my Windows 10 test system just popped up a flyout
ad wanting me to try Office 365 "free for 1 month." Pretty damned
annoying. It is totally unacceptable for an operating system, whether it's
Windows, Linux, OS-X, or anything else, to be popping up advertisements
in the user's face like some piece of malware. (Not to mention that I
have zero interest in MS Office, particularly a version where I would
need to pay them in perpetuity to use it. Don't need it, don't want it,
don't want advertisements for it.)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[A.M]

On 2015-08-16 10:24 AM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2015-08-16, Wildman > wrote:
>> I believe the shopping lens is actually part of Unity.
>
> I'm pretty sure the Xfce version of Ubuntu (Xubuntu) doesn't have any
> of that stuff. It is disappointing that Ubuntu went in that direction
> with their core release but there are plenty of alternatives.
>
> On the other hand, my Windows 10 test system just popped up a flyout
> ad wanting me to try Office 365 "free for 1 month." Pretty damned
> annoying. It is totally unacceptable for an operating system, whether it's
> Windows, Linux, OS-X, or anything else, to be popping up advertisements
> in the user's face like some piece of malware. (Not to mention that I
> have zero interest in MS Office, particularly a version where I would
> need to pay them in perpetuity to use it. Don't need it, don't want it,
> don't want advertisements for it.)

I have a legitimate product key for Office 2013 and have it installed on
my machine. As such, I suppose that Microsoft had no benefit in pushing
Office 365 to me but I'm wondering where this advertisement appeared:
was it in a browser window in the middle of the screen, a notification
block in the bottom-right near the system tray, an ad within the Store
tile in the Start menu? I'm curious.

--
A.M

Hillary for Prison 2016!!

[Roger Blake[_2_]]

On 2015-08-16, A.M <> wrote:
> ... I'm wondering where this advertisement appeared:
> was it in a browser window in the middle of the screen, a notification
> block in the bottom-right near the system tray, an ad within the Store
> tile in the Start menu? I'm curious.

It was a flyout/notification block coming from the bottom-right area
of the screen. Looked like a Windows system message. (I have all the
tiles removed from the start menu, and there were no applications running
at the time, only Windows Update.)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[John Aldred]

On Sun, 16 Aug 2015 15:02:19 +0000, Roger Blake wrote:

> On 2015-08-16, A.M <> wrote:
>> ... I'm wondering where this advertisement appeared:
>> was it in a browser window in the middle of the screen, a notification
>> block in the bottom-right near the system tray, an ad within the Store
>> tile in the Start menu? I'm curious.
>
> It was a flyout/notification block coming from the bottom-right area of
> the screen. Looked like a Windows system message. (I have all the tiles
> removed from the start menu, and there were no applications running at
> the time, only Windows Update.)

I've several of these pop out messages on the preview versions, but these
were usually asking questions about how easy I had found a particular
task.
I don't think that I have seen ad for Office 365 yet.
I was using Firefox on one occasion with a preview version, and received
a "marks out of 6" question about whether I would recommend Firefox to a
friend. :-)

[Roger Blake[_2_]]

On 2015-08-16, John Aldred > wrote:
> I've several of these pop out messages on the preview versions, but these
> were usually asking questions about how easy I had found a particular
> task.

It was pretty weird and unexpected, even for Microsoft. Did Windows notice
that there was no office suite installed and thus tried to entice me into an
Office 365 subscription? If so you have to wonder what else it is watching
out for and what else will pop up. I suppose time will tell. (Glad it's
only installed on a test system here.)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Paul]

Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2015-08-16, John Aldred > wrote:
>> I've several of these pop out messages on the preview versions, but these
>> were usually asking questions about how easy I had found a particular
>> task.
>
> It was pretty weird and unexpected, even for Microsoft. Did Windows notice
> that there was no office suite installed and thus tried to entice me into an
> Office 365 subscription? If so you have to wonder what else it is watching
> out for and what else will pop up. I suppose time will tell. (Glad it's
> only installed on a test system here.)
>

It does watch for stuff.

If you viewed the BUILD video, you would have some idea
of the stated use case.

But, so far, I've received the advert for Office 365 twice,
and the presentation of Office, when I haven't *once*
used any other Office application, does not follow
the stated paradigm. This is just straight-out
plain-old advertising. The sort of thing you would
expect from a "Windows with Bing" freebie. Cheesy.

The idea was supposed to be, if you were playing Angry
Birds, then you might see an advert several days later,
for some other similar software, perhaps "Angry Birds Forever".
But that hasn't happened yet. So far, this is not
presentation of similar materials, because I haven't
been using any other Office material like Kingsoft
or LibreOffice. Neither are installed.

Paul

[s|b]

On Sat, 15 Aug 2015 22:45:03 -0500, Wildman wrote:

> > <quote>
> >
> > Note: Some readers have commented that the original source for the
> > article is of questionably validity. If anyone can confirm or refute the
> > original author's finding with actual data, please let me know in the
> > comments, and I'll update this post accordingly.
> >
> > </quote>

> The other link I post that you snipped gives some
> credibility.

This one?

<http://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/>

I'm sorry, it wasn't clear to me that is was meant to confirm the other
link.

--
s|b