Why is NetMeeting Audio better?

[JW]

System 1 in USA with DSL connection, no router, XP Home SP1, MSNMsger
6.0.0602
System 2 in Europe with DSL connection, no router, XP Pro SP1, MSN Msgr
6.0.0602.

Messenger audio suffers from lost or dropped packets in both directions.
Prior to final MSN Messenger 6 release, audio suffered from lost or dropped
packets only from US to Europe.
Switching to NetMeeting audio from Messenger results in perfect audion in
both directions.

Have tried replacing both system 1 and system 2 with different identically
configured systems at each end with no change.

Apparenly Messenger and NetMeeting codecs and or packet pakaging are
different. Does anybody have any ideas on how to make Messenger audio work
as well as Netmeeting audio?

[Brian Sullivan MVP]

JW wrote:
> System 1 in USA with DSL connection, no router, XP Home SP1, MSNMsger
> 6.0.0602
> System 2 in Europe with DSL connection, no router, XP Pro SP1, MSN
> Msgr
> 6.0.0602.
>
> Messenger audio suffers from lost or dropped packets in both
> directions. Prior to final MSN Messenger 6 release, audio suffered
> from lost or dropped packets only from US to Europe.
> Switching to NetMeeting audio from Messenger results in perfect
> audion in both directions.
>
> Have tried replacing both system 1 and system 2 with different
> identically configured systems at each end with no change.
>
> Apparenly Messenger and NetMeeting codecs and or packet pakaging are
> different. Does anybody have any ideas on how to make Messenger
> audio work as well as Netmeeting audio?

Messenger and NetMeeting have totally different protocols, strategies and
codecs for audio and video transmission.

It actually suprises me though that you see NetMeeting as better with less
dropouts -- Messenger has strategies for manipulating codecs on the fly to
try to compensate for network vagarites - NetMeeting does not. Are your
tests happening at the same time ( or as close to possible ) and on the smae
connections?

It is likely though that NetMeeting and Messenger would perform differently
( with NetMeeting perhaps being "better" in some circumstances) -- so maybe
this is the effect you are seeing.

The bottom line is that the Internet is a *very* hostile environment for
real time audio/video calling regardless of the program used.



--
Brian Sullivan
Meeting by Wire ( http://www.meetingbywire.com)
Please do not email copies of newsgroup postings -- I am easily
confused.

[JW]

Brian,
Thank you for your quick response. My friend in Europe have been
investigating this for some time and are also suprised at the results.
It appears that the strategies for adjusting codecs on the fly in XP are not
working properly or as conceived and are therefore a degradation from
NetMeeting's tried and true code.
All tests have been at the same time, in fact we switch back and forth
between MSG and NetMeeting without rebbooting or changing anything and the
problem with Msgr dropped packets occurs right away.
We are not sure when the problem started, we beleive that the problem from
the US to Europe started with the official release of XP. We do not believe
it occured with the XP beta release when we were both using it. The problem
did not start occuring in both directions till the officail release of MSG
6.
It was not till this past weekend that we completed testing different
systems and configurations and became convinced that it was not a network or
system configuration issue.

"Brian Sullivan MVP" > wrote in message
...
> JW wrote:
> > System 1 in USA with DSL connection, no router, XP Home SP1, MSNMsger
> > 6.0.0602
> > System 2 in Europe with DSL connection, no router, XP Pro SP1, MSN
> > Msgr
> > 6.0.0602.
> >
> > Messenger audio suffers from lost or dropped packets in both
> > directions. Prior to final MSN Messenger 6 release, audio suffered
> > from lost or dropped packets only from US to Europe.
> > Switching to NetMeeting audio from Messenger results in perfect
> > audion in both directions.
> >
> > Have tried replacing both system 1 and system 2 with different
> > identically configured systems at each end with no change.
> >
> > Apparenly Messenger and NetMeeting codecs and or packet pakaging are
> > different. Does anybody have any ideas on how to make Messenger
> > audio work as well as Netmeeting audio?
>
> Messenger and NetMeeting have totally different protocols, strategies and
> codecs for audio and video transmission.
>
> It actually suprises me though that you see NetMeeting as better with less
> dropouts -- Messenger has strategies for manipulating codecs on the fly to
> try to compensate for network vagarites - NetMeeting does not. Are your
> tests happening at the same time ( or as close to possible ) and on the
smae
> connections?
>
> It is likely though that NetMeeting and Messenger would perform
differently
> ( with NetMeeting perhaps being "better" in some circumstances) -- so
maybe
> this is the effect you are seeing.
>
> The bottom line is that the Internet is a *very* hostile environment for
> real time audio/video calling regardless of the program used.
>
>
>
> --
> Brian Sullivan
> Meeting by Wire ( http://www.meetingbywire.com)
> Please do not email copies of newsgroup postings -- I am easily
> confused.
>

[Brian Sullivan MVP]

JW wrote:
> Brian,
> Thank you for your quick response. My friend in Europe have been
> investigating this for some time and are also suprised at the results.
> It appears that the strategies for adjusting codecs on the fly in XP
> are not working properly or as conceived and are therefore a
> degradation from NetMeeting's tried and true code.



Perhaps as you say the Messenger code is not doing its job - I don't know
enough about it to even suggest a testing strategy to determine if that is
the case.



> All tests have been at the same time, in fact we switch back and forth
> between MSG and NetMeeting without rebbooting or changing anything
> and the problem with Msgr dropped packets occurs right away.
> We are not sure when the problem started, we beleive that the
> problem from the US to Europe started with the official release of
> XP. We do not believe it occured with the XP beta release when we
> were both using it. The problem did not start occuring in both
> directions till the officail release of MSG 6.
> It was not till this past weekend that we completed testing different
> systems and configurations and became convinced that it was not a
> network or system configuration issue.

I don't know what might be going on -- perhaps H.323 and its codecs are
better suited to the transatlantic connections (consistently long latency
perhaps).


But as I said earlier the internet is such a hostile environment for real
time audio and video that I doubt there will ever be a one size fits all
solution to the problems. Generally this issue has meant that programs such
as NetMeeting and Messenger are relegated to toy, experimental or hobby
status in world of business communications.






--
Brian Sullivan
Meeting by Wire ( http://www.meetingbywire.com)
Please do not email copies of newsgroup postings -- I am easily
confused.

[JW]

I know that this is not an easy problem and that it appears to be different
from the other audio problems users have been having with recent releases of
MSN Messenger.
Since sometimes MS developers and support staff have been known to review
postings in this newsgroup I hope that someone will have some idea of what
tests can be run or what registgry configurations could be changed.
"Brian Sullivan MVP" > wrote in message
...
> JW wrote:
> > Brian,
> > Thank you for your quick response. My friend in Europe have been
> > investigating this for some time and are also suprised at the results.
> > It appears that the strategies for adjusting codecs on the fly in XP
> > are not working properly or as conceived and are therefore a
> > degradation from NetMeeting's tried and true code.
>
>
>
> Perhaps as you say the Messenger code is not doing its job - I don't know
> enough about it to even suggest a testing strategy to determine if that is
> the case.
>
>
>
> > All tests have been at the same time, in fact we switch back and forth
> > between MSG and NetMeeting without rebbooting or changing anything
> > and the problem with Msgr dropped packets occurs right away.
> > We are not sure when the problem started, we beleive that the
> > problem from the US to Europe started with the official release of
> > XP. We do not believe it occured with the XP beta release when we
> > were both using it. The problem did not start occuring in both
> > directions till the officail release of MSG 6.
> > It was not till this past weekend that we completed testing different
> > systems and configurations and became convinced that it was not a
> > network or system configuration issue.
>
> I don't know what might be going on -- perhaps H.323 and its codecs are
> better suited to the transatlantic connections (consistently long latency
> perhaps).
>
>
> But as I said earlier the internet is such a hostile environment for real

> time audio and video that I doubt there will ever be a one size fits all
> solution to the problems. Generally this issue has meant that programs
such
> as NetMeeting and Messenger are relegated to toy, experimental or hobby
> status in world of business communications.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Brian Sullivan
> Meeting by Wire ( http://www.meetingbywire.com)
> Please do not email copies of newsgroup postings -- I am easily
> confused.
>

[Brian Sullivan MVP]

JW wrote:
> I know that this is not an easy problem and that it appears to be
> different from the other audio problems users have been having with
> recent releases of MSN Messenger.
> Since sometimes MS developers and support staff have been known to
> review postings in this newsgroup I hope that someone will have some
> idea of what tests can be run or what registgry configurations could
> be changed. "



Well one thing you could do is to do end to end period traceroutes while in
the call to gather information on router latency and busyness.

Ping Plotter ( www.pingplotter.com ) is a program I have used in the past to
diagnosed router/connection problems.






--
Brian Sullivan
Meeting by Wire ( http://www.meetingbywire.com)
Please do not email copies of newsgroup postings -- I am easily
confused.