Windows XP OEM [Archive]

Jim Macklin

December 5th 03, 09:56 PM

Your choices are to buy a retail OS or another non-BIOS
locked OEM OS from a Microsoft distributor. But to install
any "new" OEM will require that you format your C: drive
because an OEM OS CD does not have the ability to upgrade.

It is one of the pitfalls of buying a computer with the big
manufacturers OEM OS installed, they often leave Windows
drivers and other component out, add stuff of their own
(which may or may not be desired by the user) and they BIOS
lock so you're stuck with them.

You can learn LINUX and get that for free or low cost. Do
you have a few months to learn how to use it.

"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
| Why would you post a reply that is so sarcastic and
| unhelpful? I believe that I stated those two choices in
| me original post. I'm trying to avoid spending even more
| money on a computer that is less than 2 years old. Right
| now, it's collecting dust. No OS.
| >-----Original Message-----
| >Buy another motherboard from the manufacturer, or get a
| retail copy of XP.
| >You don't have any other choice.
| >
| >--
| >Doug Knox, MS-MVP Windows XP/ Windows Smart Display
| >Win 95/98/Me/XP Tweaks and Fixes
| >http://www.dougknox.com
| >--------------------------------
| >Associate Expert
| >ExpertZone -
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
| >--------------------------------
| >Please reply only to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
| >Unsolicited e-mail is not answered.
| >
| >"Dawn" > wrote in message
| ...
| >> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
| the
| >> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
| and
| >> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
| bought
| >> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
| install.
| >> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that the
| >> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
| agreement
| >> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
| Or,
| >> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even talk
to
| >> me. Any suggestions?
| >
| >
| >.
| >

Dawn

December 5th 03, 09:56 PM

Why am I upset? When the MB first went out and I called
the manuf, the choice of getting parts from them was never
offered. I was told that the warranty was out and that
they could not help me with parts. They could only give
me email support. So, I made the "mistake" of buying a
motherboard and putting it in myself. My other mistake
was thinking that I had purchased a copy of Windows XP
when I purchased my computer. No one educates people
about things like OEMs when they are buying computers.
Microsoft included. When I was buying my computer, I had
a choice of operating systems. I went to Microsoft's
website to get "informed". Nowhere did I see a warning
that if something were to go wrong they would not help
with my copy of their software if I had not purchased from
them. So, I realise now thanks to all of your helpful
responses when you purchase a computer you are NOT
purchasing a copy of windows.
>-----Original Message-----
>Why do you think that Microsoft should talk to you.
>
>Everything you've got is OEM. They're responsible for it.
Your mistake was
>buying a motherboard from someone else. Now you have to
deal with it by
>purchasing Windows XP retail, OR, return the new
motherboard and purchase a
>replacement from the OEM.
>
>No other way. Sorry!
>
>
>"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
>> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
the
>> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
and
>> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
bought
>> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
install.
>> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that the
>> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
agreement
>> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
Or,
>> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even talk to
>> me. Any suggestions?
>
>
>.
>

Doug Knox MS-MVP

December 5th 03, 09:56 PM

Dawn,

I was not being sarcastic, as Bruce pointed out. Those are your choices,
pure and simple. Jim Macklin pointed out that you can buy an OEM copy that
isn't BIOS locked. You'll save a few dollars, but to be legitimate, they're
supposed to sell those only with other hardware (meaning motherboard, CPU,
hard disk). And as you know, an OEM version entitles you to no free support
from Microsoft, of any kind, and an exorbitant charge if you call for "paid
support". And the OEM version is allegedly supported by the company that
sold it to you. So if you go to http://www.flybynightcomputers.com (not a
real link, at least I hope not!) and try to get support from them? Very,
very doubtful.

--
Doug Knox, MS-MVP Windows XP/ Windows Smart Display
Win 95/98/Me/XP Tweaks and Fixes
http://www.dougknox.com
--------------------------------
Associate Expert
ExpertZone - http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
--------------------------------
Please reply only to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
Unsolicited e-mail is not answered.

"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
> Why would you post a reply that is so sarcastic and
> unhelpful? I believe that I stated those two choices in
> me original post. I'm trying to avoid spending even more
> money on a computer that is less than 2 years old. Right
> now, it's collecting dust. No OS.
> >-----Original Message-----
> >Buy another motherboard from the manufacturer, or get a
> retail copy of XP.
> >You don't have any other choice.
> >
> >--
> >Doug Knox, MS-MVP Windows XP/ Windows Smart Display
> >Win 95/98/Me/XP Tweaks and Fixes
> >http://www.dougknox.com
> >--------------------------------
> >Associate Expert
> >ExpertZone - http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
> >--------------------------------
> >Please reply only to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
> >Unsolicited e-mail is not answered.
> >
> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
> the
> >> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
> and
> >> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
> bought
> >> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
> install.
> >> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that the
> >> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
> agreement
> >> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
> Or,
> >> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even talk to
> >> me. Any suggestions?
> >
> >
> >.
> >

Don

December 5th 03, 09:57 PM

>-----Original Message-----
>Why am I upset? When the MB first went out and I called
>the manuf, the choice of getting parts from them was
never
>offered. I was told that the warranty was out and that
>they could not help me with parts. They could only give
>me email support. So, I made the "mistake" of buying a
>motherboard and putting it in myself. My other mistake
>was thinking that I had purchased a copy of Windows XP
>when I purchased my computer. No one educates people
>about things like OEMs when they are buying computers.
>Microsoft included. When I was buying my computer, I
had
>a choice of operating systems. I went to Microsoft's
>website to get "informed". Nowhere did I see a warning
>that if something were to go wrong they would not help
>with my copy of their software if I had not purchased
from
>them. So, I realise now thanks to all of your helpful
>responses when you purchase a computer you are NOT
>purchasing a copy of windows.
>>-----Original Message-----
>>Why do you think that Microsoft should talk to you.
>>
>>Everything you've got is OEM. They're responsible for
it.
>Your mistake was
>>buying a motherboard from someone else. Now you have to
>deal with it by
>>purchasing Windows XP retail, OR, return the new
>motherboard and purchase a
>>replacement from the OEM.
>>
>>No other way. Sorry!
>>
>>
>>"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
>>> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
>the
>>> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
>and
>>> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
>bought
>>> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
>install.
>>> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that
the
>>> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
>agreement
>>> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of
XP.
>Or,
>>> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even talk
to
>>> me. Any suggestions?
>>
>>
>>.
>>
>.
>Well said Dawn. When buying a computer, it's not what
they say but what they do'nt say to the vast majority of
the consuming public who do not have a clue. Being a
newbie or even somewhat more computer savvy does not
protect us from those who would take advantage. And
PLEASE dont give me that BS about taking classes,going to
school and getting a computer science degree,just to use
one of these damn contraptions to try and not fall so far
behind ones peers.Sure,it's in the small print! But I
can't see the small print with my tri-focals.I can barely
see the computer screen . So, all you techie know it alls
out there be a little less judgmental about what you pile
on a poor ignorant slob like me and millions of others
that are just trying to catch up and are hanging on by
our fingernails.
Again Dawn, WELL SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ally

December 5th 03, 09:57 PM

"Dawn" > wrote:

> So, I made the "mistake" of buying a
> motherboard and putting it in myself. My other mistake
> was thinking that I had purchased a copy of Windows XP
> when I purchased my computer.

You sort of acquired the right to _use_ a copy of Windows XP. Under
certain circumstances, such as not doing anything out of the
ordinary to your nice black box of a computer.

Sorry, do I sound disgruntled?

You obviously need retail versions unless you're an OEM yourself
and plan to bundle bondage operating systems with your computers.

> No one educates people
> about things like OEMs when they are buying computers.
> Microsoft included.

I understand too well why you're upset. If it's any consolation, I
made a similar mistake when I bought a copy of XP Pro from a
software vendor I located via eBay.

According to the vendor's website, the difference between the OEM
and retail versions was that the OEM version a) won't get me
support from MS (didn't care), b) features additional tools for
system builders (never looked), and c) is cheaper (Yay. I like
cheap.)

What I didn't know was that the OS is now bound by means of MS'
EULA to the (cheap'n'nasty, soon-to-go) computer I installed it on.
Not a word about _that_ in the product description.

My fault for being so naive as to think I could use "my" (ha!)
software the way I wanted to? The whole concept of tying an
operating systems to a specific _computer_, not to prevent illegal
copying but for... sheesh, I don't know what for. It still seems
absurd to me.

Thanks, I'm done venting my helpless anger for the foreseeable
future.

~Ally
--
Never send a monster to do the work of an evil scientist.

Don

December 5th 03, 09:57 PM

>-----Original Message-----
>Why am I upset? When the MB first went out and I called
>the manuf, the choice of getting parts from them was
never
>offered. I was told that the warranty was out and that
>they could not help me with parts. They could only give
>me email support. So, I made the "mistake" of buying a
>motherboard and putting it in myself. My other mistake
>was thinking that I had purchased a copy of Windows XP
>when I purchased my computer. No one educates people
>about things like OEMs when they are buying computers.
>Microsoft included. When I was buying my computer, I
had
>a choice of operating systems. I went to Microsoft's
>website to get "informed". Nowhere did I see a warning
>that if something were to go wrong they would not help
>with my copy of their software if I had not purchased
from
>them. So, I realise now thanks to all of your helpful
>responses when you purchase a computer you are NOT
>purchasing a copy of windows.
>>-----Original Message-----
>>Why do you think that Microsoft should talk to you.
>>
>>Everything you've got is OEM. They're responsible for
it.
>Your mistake was
>>buying a motherboard from someone else. Now you have to
>deal with it by
>>purchasing Windows XP retail, OR, return the new
>motherboard and purchase a
>>replacement from the OEM.
>>
>>No other way. Sorry!
>>
>>
>>"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
>>> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
>the
>>> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
>and
>>> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
>bought
>>> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
>install.
>>> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that
the
>>> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
>agreement
>>> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of
XP.
>Or,
>>> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even talk
to
>>> me. Any suggestions?
>>
>>
>>.
>>
>.
>By the way,can anybody there spell LEGAL LOOPHOLE?????

D.Currie

December 5th 03, 09:57 PM

It's like anything else you buy -- the salesman isn't going to tell you all
the pitfalls of buying his particular product. If you go car shopping, they
aren't going to tell you that one model has parts back-ordered for months,
they're going to talk about great prices, good gas mileage, etc.

As far as MS not supporting OEM software, that information is easily
available. There are questions posted on these boards almost daily asking
what the difference is between OEM and retail software. As far as Microsoft
"warning" you, that information is part of the EULA (end-user license
agreement) that you clicked "ok" on when you first got your computer, and
that file is still on your computer. As far as not finding it when you
looked at MSs web site, what company is going to post "Things we aren't
going to do for you under various specific circumstances"? The list would be
endless. But the information is there if you look for it.

You'll find that it's the same thing with all the "parts" of your old
computer. When you tried to get a new motherboard, you went to the company
that made the computer, not the company that made the motherboard, right? If
you went to the company that made the motherboard, they wouldn't help you.
If you had a SoundBlaster sound card in your computer and you had problems
with it, they'd tell you to go back to the computer manufacturer, too.
That's the way it works.

It's really not much different than any OEM product. If you bought a car and
the radio blew up, you'd take it back to the car dealer, you wouldn't go
back to the company that made the radio or its components. OEM parts,
including software, are just like that radio...they're part of the whole
thing that you're buying -- either computer or car -- and when you have a
problem with any component, you go back to the place that built the whole
thing, not to the company that made each component.

This probably isn't something that people think about when they buy
something, until things go wrong. When you buy your next computer (or
anything else, for that matter), you'll have a better idea of what you're
really getting for your money.

"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
> Why am I upset? When the MB first went out and I called
> the manuf, the choice of getting parts from them was never
> offered. I was told that the warranty was out and that
> they could not help me with parts. They could only give
> me email support. So, I made the "mistake" of buying a
> motherboard and putting it in myself. My other mistake
> was thinking that I had purchased a copy of Windows XP
> when I purchased my computer. No one educates people
> about things like OEMs when they are buying computers.
> Microsoft included. When I was buying my computer, I had
> a choice of operating systems. I went to Microsoft's
> website to get "informed". Nowhere did I see a warning
> that if something were to go wrong they would not help
> with my copy of their software if I had not purchased from
> them. So, I realise now thanks to all of your helpful
> responses when you purchase a computer you are NOT
> purchasing a copy of windows.
> >-----Original Message-----
> >Why do you think that Microsoft should talk to you.
> >
> >Everything you've got is OEM. They're responsible for it.
> Your mistake was
> >buying a motherboard from someone else. Now you have to
> deal with it by
> >purchasing Windows XP retail, OR, return the new
> motherboard and purchase a
> >replacement from the OEM.
> >
> >No other way. Sorry!
> >
> >
> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
> the
> >> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
> and
> >> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
> bought
> >> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
> install.
> >> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that the
> >> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
> agreement
> >> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
> Or,
> >> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even talk to
> >> me. Any suggestions?
> >
> >
> >.
> >

Ken Blake

December 5th 03, 09:57 PM

"Dawn" > wrote in message
...

> Why would you post a reply that is so sarcastic and
> unhelpful? I believe that I stated those two choices in
> me original post. I'm trying to avoid spending even more
> money on a computer that is less than 2 years old. Right
> now, it's collecting dust. No OS.

I don't read Doug's reply as being sarcastic or unhelpful at all.
You may want to have another choice besides the two you stated,
but there isn't one. Doug confirmed that for you.

We all understand that you're trying not to spend more money, but
sometimes (like now) that's your only choice.

--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

> >-----Original Message-----
> >Buy another motherboard from the manufacturer, or get a
> retail copy of XP.
> >You don't have any other choice.
> >
> >--
> >Doug Knox, MS-MVP Windows XP/ Windows Smart Display
> >Win 95/98/Me/XP Tweaks and Fixes
> >http://www.dougknox.com
> >--------------------------------
> >Associate Expert
> >ExpertZone - http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
> >--------------------------------
> >Please reply only to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
> >Unsolicited e-mail is not answered.
> >
> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
> the
> >> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
> and
> >> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
> bought
> >> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
> install.
> >> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that the
> >> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
> agreement
> >> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
> Or,
> >> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even talk to
> >> me. Any suggestions?
> >
> >
> >.
> >

Crusty $-: Old B@stard :-$

December 5th 03, 09:58 PM

If you buy a Ford that has a Motorola radio, where do you go for service on
the radio? Ford, of course. That's where you bought the product!

"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
> Why am I upset? When the MB first went out and I called
> the manuf, the choice of getting parts from them was never
> offered. I was told that the warranty was out and that
> they could not help me with parts. They could only give
> me email support. So, I made the "mistake" of buying a
> motherboard and putting it in myself. My other mistake
> was thinking that I had purchased a copy of Windows XP
> when I purchased my computer. No one educates people
> about things like OEMs when they are buying computers.
> Microsoft included. When I was buying my computer, I had
> a choice of operating systems. I went to Microsoft's
> website to get "informed". Nowhere did I see a warning
> that if something were to go wrong they would not help
> with my copy of their software if I had not purchased from
> them. So, I realise now thanks to all of your helpful
> responses when you purchase a computer you are NOT
> purchasing a copy of windows.
> >-----Original Message-----
> >Why do you think that Microsoft should talk to you.
> >
> >Everything you've got is OEM. They're responsible for it.
> Your mistake was
> >buying a motherboard from someone else. Now you have to
> deal with it by
> >purchasing Windows XP retail, OR, return the new
> motherboard and purchase a
> >replacement from the OEM.
> >
> >No other way. Sorry!
> >
> >
> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
> the
> >> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
> and
> >> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
> bought
> >> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
> install.
> >> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that the
> >> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
> agreement
> >> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
> Or,
> >> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even talk to
> >> me. Any suggestions?
> >
> >
> >.
> >

Ally

December 5th 03, 09:58 PM

"Crusty $-: Old B@stard :-$" >
wrote:

> If you buy a Ford that has a Motorola radio, where do you go for
> service on the radio? Ford, of course. That's where you bought
> the product!

And if you wreck the Ford but not the Motorola radio (which was lying
on your sideboard while you were driving the car into the Atlantic),
will the Motorola radio sulkingly cease to function, deprived of the
host that generously told it it was _alright_ to function?

(For all I know things could actually be that silly by now. I'm not
sure I want to find out.)

Support seems to be only half of the issue here. The other half being
customers not expecting software to have additional brakes installed
that make it _less_ capable.

~Ally, refusing to grok the modern world

--
Never send a monster to do the work of an evil scientist.

Doug Knox MS-MVP

December 5th 03, 09:58 PM

Don,

This is not a legal loophole. Its a part of the agreement that the vendor's
sign on to when they get MS operating systems at much lower than retail
cost. OEM versions are cheaper because the vendor has agreed to support the
product (since they have some license to modify the operating system,
install non-certified proprietary drivers and other software that may or may
not work well with the OS, Microsoft surely couldn't be expected to keep up
with all of the possible combinations of hardware and software).

Even those who sell the OEM copies via the web, are legally bound to support
the product they sold. There are recourses, but I doubt they'd be worth
the time or effort.

Don't blame MS because her computer manufacturer didn't clearly state that
MS wouldn't support her OS for free. Blame the manufacturer for not
including a big, impossible to miss notice to that fact. Blame the store or
company that sold her the computer for not telling her.

--
Doug Knox, MS-MVP Windows XP/ Windows Smart Display
Win 95/98/Me/XP Tweaks and Fixes
http://www.dougknox.com
--------------------------------
Associate Expert
ExpertZone - http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
--------------------------------
Please reply only to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
Unsolicited e-mail is not answered.

"Don" > wrote in message
...
>
> >-----Original Message-----

> >By the way,can anybody there spell LEGAL LOOPHOLE?????

Dawn

December 5th 03, 09:58 PM

The thing is, if I buy a car and it breaks down, I can put
a new carburetor in it myself and drive it to work. And if
I called my dealership and told them that the carburetor
was out, they wouldn't tell me that my warranty was up and
hang up. They'd offer me a part, BEFORE I had purchased
one from Autozone; especially if they knew that any other
brand would not work. I have looked through all the
paperwork that came with my pc, there is nothing there
telling me that replacement parts are even available from
the manuf. As far as reading anything off the HD, you
have to be kidding me. Have you been reading the posts?
The pc is collecting dust. It doesn't run. Why are so
many so quick to scold me? I have a reasonable right to
be dissapointed.

>-----Original Message-----
>It's like anything else you buy -- the salesman isn't
going to tell you all
>the pitfalls of buying his particular product. If you go
car shopping, they
>aren't going to tell you that one model has parts back-
ordered for months,
>they're going to talk about great prices, good gas
mileage, etc.
>
>As far as MS not supporting OEM software, that
information is easily
>available. There are questions posted on these boards
almost daily asking
>what the difference is between OEM and retail software.
As far as Microsoft
>"warning" you, that information is part of the EULA (end-
user license
>agreement) that you clicked "ok" on when you first got
your computer, and
>that file is still on your computer. As far as not
finding it when you
>looked at MSs web site, what company is going to
post "Things we aren't
>going to do for you under various specific
circumstances"? The list would be
>endless. But the information is there if you look for it.
>
>You'll find that it's the same thing with all the "parts"
of your old
>computer. When you tried to get a new motherboard, you
went to the company
>that made the computer, not the company that made the
motherboard, right? If
>you went to the company that made the motherboard, they
wouldn't help you.
>If you had a SoundBlaster sound card in your computer and
you had problems
>with it, they'd tell you to go back to the computer
manufacturer, too.
>That's the way it works.
>
>It's really not much different than any OEM product. If
you bought a car and
>the radio blew up, you'd take it back to the car dealer,
you wouldn't go
>back to the company that made the radio or its
components. OEM parts,
>including software, are just like that radio...they're
part of the whole
>thing that you're buying -- either computer or car -- and
when you have a
>problem with any component, you go back to the place that
built the whole
>thing, not to the company that made each component.
>
>This probably isn't something that people think about
when they buy
>something, until things go wrong. When you buy your next
computer (or
>anything else, for that matter), you'll have a better
idea of what you're
>really getting for your money.
>
>"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
>> Why am I upset? When the MB first went out and I called
>> the manuf, the choice of getting parts from them was
never
>> offered. I was told that the warranty was out and that
>> they could not help me with parts. They could only give
>> me email support. So, I made the "mistake" of buying a
>> motherboard and putting it in myself. My other mistake
>> was thinking that I had purchased a copy of Windows XP
>> when I purchased my computer. No one educates people
>> about things like OEMs when they are buying computers.
>> Microsoft included. When I was buying my computer, I
had
>> a choice of operating systems. I went to Microsoft's
>> website to get "informed". Nowhere did I see a warning
>> that if something were to go wrong they would not help
>> with my copy of their software if I had not purchased
from
>> them. So, I realise now thanks to all of your helpful
>> responses when you purchase a computer you are NOT
>> purchasing a copy of windows.
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >Why do you think that Microsoft should talk to you.
>> >
>> >Everything you've got is OEM. They're responsible for
it.
>> Your mistake was
>> >buying a motherboard from someone else. Now you have to
>> deal with it by
>> >purchasing Windows XP retail, OR, return the new
>> motherboard and purchase a
>> >replacement from the OEM.
>> >
>> >No other way. Sorry!
>> >
>> >
>> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
>> the
>> >> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
>> and
>> >> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
>> bought
>> >> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
>> install.
>> >> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that
the
>> >> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
>> agreement
>> >> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
>> Or,
>> >> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even
talk to
>> >> me. Any suggestions?
>> >
>> >
>> >.
>> >
>
>
>.
>

Frank

December 5th 03, 09:58 PM

These replies may sound a bit on the sarcastic side
but, so many people are buying these throw away
PC's that are not upgradeable let alone repairable.
I would go and see an attorney.

Dawn wrote:

| Why would you post a reply that is so sarcastic and
| unhelpful? I believe that I stated those two choices in
| me original post. I'm trying to avoid spending even more
| money on a computer that is less than 2 years old. Right
| now, it's collecting dust. No OS.
|| -----Original Message-----
|| Buy another motherboard from the manufacturer, or get a retail copy
|| of XP. You don't have any other choice.
||
|| --
|| Doug Knox, MS-MVP Windows XP/ Windows Smart Display
|| Win 95/98/Me/XP Tweaks and Fixes
|| http://www.dougknox.com
|| --------------------------------
|| Associate Expert
|| ExpertZone - http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
|| --------------------------------
|| Please reply only to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
|| Unsolicited e-mail is not answered.
||
|| "Dawn" > wrote in message
|| ...
||| Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on the
||| MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer and
||| was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I bought
||| a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me install.
||| Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that the
||| copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing agreement
||| with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP. Or,
||| I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even talk to
||| me. Any suggestions?
||
||
|| .

--
Tampa Bay RR

Bruce Chambers

December 5th 03, 09:58 PM

Greetings --

Probably. Most modern cars have stereos the are locked to the
specific car they're sold with. It's advertised as an anti-theft
feature. I know that that's been the case of all of the late model
cars I've looked at, starting as far back as '99.

Bruce Chambers

--
Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
having both at once. -- RAH

"Ally" > wrote in message
4...
>
> And if you wreck the Ford but not the Motorola radio (which was
lying
> on your sideboard while you were driving the car into the Atlantic),
> will the Motorola radio sulkingly cease to function, deprived of the
> host that generously told it it was _alright_ to function?
>

Ally

December 5th 03, 09:59 PM

"Bruce Chambers" > wrote:

> Probably. Most modern cars have stereos the are locked to
> the specific car they're sold with. It's advertised as an
> anti-theft feature. I know that that's been the case of all of
> the late model cars I've looked at, starting as far back as '99.

The end is nigh. ...uhm, I meant: Can't I please decide on my own
what I do with the stuff I buy? Including letting other people steal
it, if I so choose?

*sigh*,
~Ally (doesn't have a car anyway)

--
Never send a monster to do the work of an evil scientist.

Bruce Chambers

December 5th 03, 09:59 PM

Greetings --

You are entitled to be disappointed in the quality of support
you've received from the PC's manufacturer, yes. The PC's
manufacturer told you that you couldn't get a free replacement
motherboard because your warranty had expired. They certainly could
have done a little better here, by offering alternatives. But you're
not entirely blameless. But did _you_ ask if a replacement could be
purchased from them? How much hand-holding and coddling do you need?

For generations, the simple rule has been "Buyer Beware." This
applies to computers just as much as it does to any other product or
service. People aren't really scolding you, but you do deserve it, to
a certain extant. You consciously chose to purchase that specific
computer from that specific manufacturer with that OEM licensed
software and that specific warranty, and now you're whining because
_you_ didn't "read the fine print." Adults accept responsibility for
the consequences of their actions and decisions, good _and_ bad.

Bruce Chambers

--
Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
having both at once. -- RAH

"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
> The thing is, if I buy a car and it breaks down, I can put
> a new carburetor in it myself and drive it to work. And if
> I called my dealership and told them that the carburetor
> was out, they wouldn't tell me that my warranty was up and
> hang up. They'd offer me a part, BEFORE I had purchased
> one from Autozone; especially if they knew that any other
> brand would not work. I have looked through all the
> paperwork that came with my pc, there is nothing there
> telling me that replacement parts are even available from
> the manuf. As far as reading anything off the HD, you
> have to be kidding me. Have you been reading the posts?
> The pc is collecting dust. It doesn't run. Why are so
> many so quick to scold me? I have a reasonable right to
> be dissapointed.
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >It's like anything else you buy -- the salesman isn't
> going to tell you all
> >the pitfalls of buying his particular product. If you go
> car shopping, they
> >aren't going to tell you that one model has parts back-
> ordered for months,
> >they're going to talk about great prices, good gas
> mileage, etc.
> >
> >As far as MS not supporting OEM software, that
> information is easily
> >available. There are questions posted on these boards
> almost daily asking
> >what the difference is between OEM and retail software.
> As far as Microsoft
> >"warning" you, that information is part of the EULA (end-
> user license
> >agreement) that you clicked "ok" on when you first got
> your computer, and
> >that file is still on your computer. As far as not
> finding it when you
> >looked at MSs web site, what company is going to
> post "Things we aren't
> >going to do for you under various specific
> circumstances"? The list would be
> >endless. But the information is there if you look for it.
> >
> >You'll find that it's the same thing with all the "parts"
> of your old
> >computer. When you tried to get a new motherboard, you
> went to the company
> >that made the computer, not the company that made the
> motherboard, right? If
> >you went to the company that made the motherboard, they
> wouldn't help you.
> >If you had a SoundBlaster sound card in your computer and
> you had problems
> >with it, they'd tell you to go back to the computer
> manufacturer, too.
> >That's the way it works.
> >
> >It's really not much different than any OEM product. If
> you bought a car and
> >the radio blew up, you'd take it back to the car dealer,
> you wouldn't go
> >back to the company that made the radio or its
> components. OEM parts,
> >including software, are just like that radio...they're
> part of the whole
> >thing that you're buying -- either computer or car -- and
> when you have a
> >problem with any component, you go back to the place that
> built the whole
> >thing, not to the company that made each component.
> >
> >This probably isn't something that people think about
> when they buy
> >something, until things go wrong. When you buy your next
> computer (or
> >anything else, for that matter), you'll have a better
> idea of what you're
> >really getting for your money.
> >
> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Why am I upset? When the MB first went out and I called
> >> the manuf, the choice of getting parts from them was
> never
> >> offered. I was told that the warranty was out and that
> >> they could not help me with parts. They could only give
> >> me email support. So, I made the "mistake" of buying a
> >> motherboard and putting it in myself. My other mistake
> >> was thinking that I had purchased a copy of Windows XP
> >> when I purchased my computer. No one educates people
> >> about things like OEMs when they are buying computers.
> >> Microsoft included. When I was buying my computer, I
> had
> >> a choice of operating systems. I went to Microsoft's
> >> website to get "informed". Nowhere did I see a warning
> >> that if something were to go wrong they would not help
> >> with my copy of their software if I had not purchased
> from
> >> them. So, I realise now thanks to all of your helpful
> >> responses when you purchase a computer you are NOT
> >> purchasing a copy of windows.
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >Why do you think that Microsoft should talk to you.
> >> >
> >> >Everything you've got is OEM. They're responsible for
> it.
> >> Your mistake was
> >> >buying a motherboard from someone else. Now you have to
> >> deal with it by
> >> >purchasing Windows XP retail, OR, return the new
> >> motherboard and purchase a
> >> >replacement from the OEM.
> >> >
> >> >No other way. Sorry!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
> >> the
> >> >> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
> >> and
> >> >> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
> >> bought
> >> >> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
> >> install.
> >> >> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that
> the
> >> >> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
> >> agreement
> >> >> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
> >> Or,
> >> >> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even
> talk to
> >> >> me. Any suggestions?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >.
> >> >
> >
> >
> >.
> >

Don

December 5th 03, 09:59 PM

>-----Original Message-----
>Don,
>
>This is not a legal loophole. Its a part of the
agreement that the vendor's
>sign on to when they get MS operating systems at much
lower than retail
>cost. OEM versions are cheaper because the vendor has
agreed to support the
>product (since they have some license to modify the
operating system,
>install non-certified proprietary drivers and other
software that may or may
>not work well with the OS, Microsoft surely couldn't be
expected to keep up
>with all of the possible combinations of hardware and
software).
>
>Even those who sell the OEM copies via the web, are
legally bound to support
>the product they sold. There are recourses, but I
doubt they'd be worth
>the time or effort.
>
>Don't blame MS because her computer manufacturer didn't
clearly state that
>MS wouldn't support her OS for free. Blame the
manufacturer for not
>including a big, impossible to miss notice to that
fact. Blame the store or
>company that sold her the computer for not telling her.
>
>--
>Doug Knox, MS-MVP Windows XP/ Windows Smart Display
>Win 95/98/Me/XP Tweaks and Fixes
>http://www.dougknox.com
>--------------------------------
>Associate Expert
>ExpertZone -
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>--------------------------------
>Please reply only to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
>Unsolicited e-mail is not answered.
>
>"Don" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>
>> >By the way,can anybody there spell LEGAL LOOPHOLE?????
>
>
>.
>Yes,Convenient is'nt? For everyone except the consumer
who takes it where the sun does'nt shine from all the
afore mentioned. No matter what the problem if any one of
those entities decides to tell the consumer to take a
hike it's tough patooties for him/her/them/whoever-----
unless they file a class action suit that would be
settled about the time all our great,great grandchildren
are on welfare/social security. Okay, the big boys do
have to protect themselves.Thats a given. But when does
the guy that bought, or rather assumed he bought
something get contracts in a language the normal joe can
understand, if he can read the "small print" ?
Oh,I know.Tough patooties. And whats all that crap about
reading and understanding this or that or whatever.
Nobody does and you know it,except when some smart---
calls it to their attention and says they're a dumb---
for not taking the time to hire a lawyer to explain the
money he paid for something he thinks he owns--Yadda
yadda,yadda. By the way,Did you ever buy a lemon
automobile? Tough patooties there too. So,why did'nt you
read the fine print? It's a no win situation, and so is
this.

Harry Ohrn

December 5th 03, 09:59 PM

Dawn you can be disappointed but the facts as you've explained them are
1) you bought a computer with a BIOS locked OEM version of Windows XP. No
one told you about OEM versions but that doesn't make it Microsoft's fault.
In fact it is not even the salesperson's responsibility to tell. Buyer
Beware.
2) the warranty expired on your motherboard. Warranties expire. Were you
offered an extended warranty plan and didn't take it?
3) you decided to purchase a third party motherboard and install it.
Microsoft did not tell you to do that nor did the original supplier of the
computer. It was your choice.

To use your car analogy. Lets say you purchase a Ford product. The Warranty
expires. The motor blows. You purchase a Chrysler motor. It doesn't fit. Who
is to blame? Ford, Chrysler or ................?

--

Harry Ohrn MS-MVP [Shell\User]
www.webtree.ca/windowsxp

"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
> The thing is, if I buy a car and it breaks down, I can put
> a new carburetor in it myself and drive it to work. And if
> I called my dealership and told them that the carburetor
> was out, they wouldn't tell me that my warranty was up and
> hang up. They'd offer me a part, BEFORE I had purchased
> one from Autozone; especially if they knew that any other
> brand would not work. I have looked through all the
> paperwork that came with my pc, there is nothing there
> telling me that replacement parts are even available from
> the manuf. As far as reading anything off the HD, you
> have to be kidding me. Have you been reading the posts?
> The pc is collecting dust. It doesn't run. Why are so
> many so quick to scold me? I have a reasonable right to
> be dissapointed.
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >It's like anything else you buy -- the salesman isn't
> going to tell you all
> >the pitfalls of buying his particular product. If you go
> car shopping, they
> >aren't going to tell you that one model has parts back-
> ordered for months,
> >they're going to talk about great prices, good gas
> mileage, etc.
> >
> >As far as MS not supporting OEM software, that
> information is easily
> >available. There are questions posted on these boards
> almost daily asking
> >what the difference is between OEM and retail software.
> As far as Microsoft
> >"warning" you, that information is part of the EULA (end-
> user license
> >agreement) that you clicked "ok" on when you first got
> your computer, and
> >that file is still on your computer. As far as not
> finding it when you
> >looked at MSs web site, what company is going to
> post "Things we aren't
> >going to do for you under various specific
> circumstances"? The list would be
> >endless. But the information is there if you look for it.
> >
> >You'll find that it's the same thing with all the "parts"
> of your old
> >computer. When you tried to get a new motherboard, you
> went to the company
> >that made the computer, not the company that made the
> motherboard, right? If
> >you went to the company that made the motherboard, they
> wouldn't help you.
> >If you had a SoundBlaster sound card in your computer and
> you had problems
> >with it, they'd tell you to go back to the computer
> manufacturer, too.
> >That's the way it works.
> >
> >It's really not much different than any OEM product. If
> you bought a car and
> >the radio blew up, you'd take it back to the car dealer,
> you wouldn't go
> >back to the company that made the radio or its
> components. OEM parts,
> >including software, are just like that radio...they're
> part of the whole
> >thing that you're buying -- either computer or car -- and
> when you have a
> >problem with any component, you go back to the place that
> built the whole
> >thing, not to the company that made each component.
> >
> >This probably isn't something that people think about
> when they buy
> >something, until things go wrong. When you buy your next
> computer (or
> >anything else, for that matter), you'll have a better
> idea of what you're
> >really getting for your money.
> >
> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Why am I upset? When the MB first went out and I called
> >> the manuf, the choice of getting parts from them was
> never
> >> offered. I was told that the warranty was out and that
> >> they could not help me with parts. They could only give
> >> me email support. So, I made the "mistake" of buying a
> >> motherboard and putting it in myself. My other mistake
> >> was thinking that I had purchased a copy of Windows XP
> >> when I purchased my computer. No one educates people
> >> about things like OEMs when they are buying computers.
> >> Microsoft included. When I was buying my computer, I
> had
> >> a choice of operating systems. I went to Microsoft's
> >> website to get "informed". Nowhere did I see a warning
> >> that if something were to go wrong they would not help
> >> with my copy of their software if I had not purchased
> from
> >> them. So, I realise now thanks to all of your helpful
> >> responses when you purchase a computer you are NOT
> >> purchasing a copy of windows.
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >Why do you think that Microsoft should talk to you.
> >> >
> >> >Everything you've got is OEM. They're responsible for
> it.
> >> Your mistake was
> >> >buying a motherboard from someone else. Now you have to
> >> deal with it by
> >> >purchasing Windows XP retail, OR, return the new
> >> motherboard and purchase a
> >> >replacement from the OEM.
> >> >
> >> >No other way. Sorry!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
> >> the
> >> >> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
> >> and
> >> >> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
> >> bought
> >> >> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
> >> install.
> >> >> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that
> the
> >> >> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
> >> agreement
> >> >> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
> >> Or,
> >> >> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even
> talk to
> >> >> me. Any suggestions?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >.
> >> >
> >
> >
> >.
> >

Harry Ohrn

December 5th 03, 09:59 PM

No you can't always decide what you want to do with what you purchase. I
purchased my house. If I decide I want to add a room I must get a building
permit from the City first. I buy a car. I decide to leave it unlocked,
running with the keys in the ignition. Someone steals it. In my town you are
fined for leaving an unlocked running car with the keys in the ignition. My
car right?, My house right? I hardly think so. For some convoluted reason we
think that we have full and total rights to something because we paid cash
for it.

Human vanity. The earth was here a billion years before we walked the planet
and it will be here a billion years after all of us are dead and we think we
*own* the parcel of land we sit on. We own nothing.

--

Harry Ohrn MS-MVP [Shell\User]
www.webtree.ca/windowsxp

"Ally" > wrote in message
...
> "Bruce Chambers" > wrote:
>
> > Probably. Most modern cars have stereos the are locked to
> > the specific car they're sold with. It's advertised as an
> > anti-theft feature. I know that that's been the case of all of
> > the late model cars I've looked at, starting as far back as '99.
>
> The end is nigh. ...uhm, I meant: Can't I please decide on my own
> what I do with the stuff I buy? Including letting other people steal
> it, if I so choose?
>
> *sigh*,
> ~Ally (doesn't have a car anyway)
>
> --
> Never send a monster to do the work of an evil scientist.

Crusty $-: Old B@stard :-$

December 5th 03, 09:59 PM

So again, you admit it's the responsibility of the manufacturer of the total
product (a car) to offer you this service, and not the manufacturer of the
carburetor! Why not the same with a computer?

As I said before, where does Microsoft fit into your thinking? They made the
"carburetor".

"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
> The thing is, if I buy a car and it breaks down, I can put
> a new carburetor in it myself and drive it to work. And if
> I called my dealership and told them that the carburetor
> was out, they wouldn't tell me that my warranty was up and
> hang up. They'd offer me a part, BEFORE I had purchased
> one from Autozone; especially if they knew that any other
> brand would not work. I have looked through all the
> paperwork that came with my pc, there is nothing there
> telling me that replacement parts are even available from
> the manuf. As far as reading anything off the HD, you
> have to be kidding me. Have you been reading the posts?
> The pc is collecting dust. It doesn't run. Why are so
> many so quick to scold me? I have a reasonable right to
> be dissapointed.
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >It's like anything else you buy -- the salesman isn't
> going to tell you all
> >the pitfalls of buying his particular product. If you go
> car shopping, they
> >aren't going to tell you that one model has parts back-
> ordered for months,
> >they're going to talk about great prices, good gas
> mileage, etc.
> >
> >As far as MS not supporting OEM software, that
> information is easily
> >available. There are questions posted on these boards
> almost daily asking
> >what the difference is between OEM and retail software.
> As far as Microsoft
> >"warning" you, that information is part of the EULA (end-
> user license
> >agreement) that you clicked "ok" on when you first got
> your computer, and
> >that file is still on your computer. As far as not
> finding it when you
> >looked at MSs web site, what company is going to
> post "Things we aren't
> >going to do for you under various specific
> circumstances"? The list would be
> >endless. But the information is there if you look for it.
> >
> >You'll find that it's the same thing with all the "parts"
> of your old
> >computer. When you tried to get a new motherboard, you
> went to the company
> >that made the computer, not the company that made the
> motherboard, right? If
> >you went to the company that made the motherboard, they
> wouldn't help you.
> >If you had a SoundBlaster sound card in your computer and
> you had problems
> >with it, they'd tell you to go back to the computer
> manufacturer, too.
> >That's the way it works.
> >
> >It's really not much different than any OEM product. If
> you bought a car and
> >the radio blew up, you'd take it back to the car dealer,
> you wouldn't go
> >back to the company that made the radio or its
> components. OEM parts,
> >including software, are just like that radio...they're
> part of the whole
> >thing that you're buying -- either computer or car -- and
> when you have a
> >problem with any component, you go back to the place that
> built the whole
> >thing, not to the company that made each component.
> >
> >This probably isn't something that people think about
> when they buy
> >something, until things go wrong. When you buy your next
> computer (or
> >anything else, for that matter), you'll have a better
> idea of what you're
> >really getting for your money.
> >
> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Why am I upset? When the MB first went out and I called
> >> the manuf, the choice of getting parts from them was
> never
> >> offered. I was told that the warranty was out and that
> >> they could not help me with parts. They could only give
> >> me email support. So, I made the "mistake" of buying a
> >> motherboard and putting it in myself. My other mistake
> >> was thinking that I had purchased a copy of Windows XP
> >> when I purchased my computer. No one educates people
> >> about things like OEMs when they are buying computers.
> >> Microsoft included. When I was buying my computer, I
> had
> >> a choice of operating systems. I went to Microsoft's
> >> website to get "informed". Nowhere did I see a warning
> >> that if something were to go wrong they would not help
> >> with my copy of their software if I had not purchased
> from
> >> them. So, I realise now thanks to all of your helpful
> >> responses when you purchase a computer you are NOT
> >> purchasing a copy of windows.
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >Why do you think that Microsoft should talk to you.
> >> >
> >> >Everything you've got is OEM. They're responsible for
> it.
> >> Your mistake was
> >> >buying a motherboard from someone else. Now you have to
> >> deal with it by
> >> >purchasing Windows XP retail, OR, return the new
> >> motherboard and purchase a
> >> >replacement from the OEM.
> >> >
> >> >No other way. Sorry!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
> >> the
> >> >> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
> >> and
> >> >> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
> >> bought
> >> >> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
> >> install.
> >> >> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that
> the
> >> >> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
> >> agreement
> >> >> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
> >> Or,
> >> >> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even
> talk to
> >> >> me. Any suggestions?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >.
> >> >
> >
> >
> >.
> >

Papa

December 5th 03, 09:59 PM

Buy the retail version. With OEM-assembled computers and OEM installed
operating systems you have no freedom of hardware choices.

"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on the
> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer and
> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I bought
> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me install.
> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that the
> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing agreement
> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP. Or,
> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even talk to
> me. Any suggestions?

Papa

December 5th 03, 09:59 PM

Sarcastic?? Doug was just offering you the truth.

"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
> Why would you post a reply that is so sarcastic and
> unhelpful? I believe that I stated those two choices in
> me original post. I'm trying to avoid spending even more
> money on a computer that is less than 2 years old. Right
> now, it's collecting dust. No OS.
> >-----Original Message-----
> >Buy another motherboard from the manufacturer, or get a
> retail copy of XP.
> >You don't have any other choice.
> >
> >--
> >Doug Knox, MS-MVP Windows XP/ Windows Smart Display
> >Win 95/98/Me/XP Tweaks and Fixes
> >http://www.dougknox.com
> >--------------------------------
> >Associate Expert
> >ExpertZone - http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
> >--------------------------------
> >Please reply only to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
> >Unsolicited e-mail is not answered.
> >
> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
> the
> >> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
> and
> >> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
> bought
> >> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
> install.
> >> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that the
> >> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
> agreement
> >> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
> Or,
> >> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even talk to
> >> me. Any suggestions?
> >
> >
> >.
> >

D.Currie

December 5th 03, 10:00 PM

I didn't mean to sound like I was scolding you for not knowing these things
in advance, just trying to explain what the ramifications of OEM are. But
the complaints you have should be directed at the manufacturer of the
computer, as they are the ones who didn't offer you parts, don't stock
replacement parts, and didn't make it clear to you what their
responsibilities are. MS has no control over that sort of thing.

Microsoft should take the blame for things they do poorly, but in this case,
all they did was sell the software to the OEM, and the OEM is the one that
customized it and sold it to you. From that point, it's up to the OEM to
support you, whether it software or hardware related. Apparently they didn't
do a very good job of it.

I just find it interesting that in cases like this, MS is thought to be to
blame because their software, customized by the OEM, won't install on a
different motherboard, but it wasn't the software that blew up and caused
the original problem. It would have made more sense to go yell at the
motherboard company and complain to them (and it wasn't the manufacturer of
the computer who made that motherboard, it was another supplier, just like
MS is the OS supplier).

Needless to say, this capacitor problem is huge. There are motherboards and
other components that are blowing up left and right because of defective
electrolyte in the capacitors. Might be worthwhile hanging on to that dead
motherboard for just a bit to see if there's some sort of class action suit
or something that might recoup some of your loss or force them to replace
it. It's a longshot, but you never know.

Since you're apparently capable of replacing your motherboard, you might
want to consider building your own PCs from now on. That way you're not
relying on some 3rd party for parts, you'd have the retail warranties on
everything, and you could replace with off-the-shelf parts instead of
proprietary stuff.

"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
> The thing is, if I buy a car and it breaks down, I can put
> a new carburetor in it myself and drive it to work. And if
> I called my dealership and told them that the carburetor
> was out, they wouldn't tell me that my warranty was up and
> hang up. They'd offer me a part, BEFORE I had purchased
> one from Autozone; especially if they knew that any other
> brand would not work. I have looked through all the
> paperwork that came with my pc, there is nothing there
> telling me that replacement parts are even available from
> the manuf. As far as reading anything off the HD, you
> have to be kidding me. Have you been reading the posts?
> The pc is collecting dust. It doesn't run. Why are so
> many so quick to scold me? I have a reasonable right to
> be dissapointed.
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >It's like anything else you buy -- the salesman isn't
> going to tell you all
> >the pitfalls of buying his particular product. If you go
> car shopping, they
> >aren't going to tell you that one model has parts back-
> ordered for months,
> >they're going to talk about great prices, good gas
> mileage, etc.
> >
> >As far as MS not supporting OEM software, that
> information is easily
> >available. There are questions posted on these boards
> almost daily asking
> >what the difference is between OEM and retail software.
> As far as Microsoft
> >"warning" you, that information is part of the EULA (end-
> user license
> >agreement) that you clicked "ok" on when you first got
> your computer, and
> >that file is still on your computer. As far as not
> finding it when you
> >looked at MSs web site, what company is going to
> post "Things we aren't
> >going to do for you under various specific
> circumstances"? The list would be
> >endless. But the information is there if you look for it.
> >
> >You'll find that it's the same thing with all the "parts"
> of your old
> >computer. When you tried to get a new motherboard, you
> went to the company
> >that made the computer, not the company that made the
> motherboard, right? If
> >you went to the company that made the motherboard, they
> wouldn't help you.
> >If you had a SoundBlaster sound card in your computer and
> you had problems
> >with it, they'd tell you to go back to the computer
> manufacturer, too.
> >That's the way it works.
> >
> >It's really not much different than any OEM product. If
> you bought a car and
> >the radio blew up, you'd take it back to the car dealer,
> you wouldn't go
> >back to the company that made the radio or its
> components. OEM parts,
> >including software, are just like that radio...they're
> part of the whole
> >thing that you're buying -- either computer or car -- and
> when you have a
> >problem with any component, you go back to the place that
> built the whole
> >thing, not to the company that made each component.
> >
> >This probably isn't something that people think about
> when they buy
> >something, until things go wrong. When you buy your next
> computer (or
> >anything else, for that matter), you'll have a better
> idea of what you're
> >really getting for your money.
> >
> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Why am I upset? When the MB first went out and I called
> >> the manuf, the choice of getting parts from them was
> never
> >> offered. I was told that the warranty was out and that
> >> they could not help me with parts. They could only give
> >> me email support. So, I made the "mistake" of buying a
> >> motherboard and putting it in myself. My other mistake
> >> was thinking that I had purchased a copy of Windows XP
> >> when I purchased my computer. No one educates people
> >> about things like OEMs when they are buying computers.
> >> Microsoft included. When I was buying my computer, I
> had
> >> a choice of operating systems. I went to Microsoft's
> >> website to get "informed". Nowhere did I see a warning
> >> that if something were to go wrong they would not help
> >> with my copy of their software if I had not purchased
> from
> >> them. So, I realise now thanks to all of your helpful
> >> responses when you purchase a computer you are NOT
> >> purchasing a copy of windows.
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >Why do you think that Microsoft should talk to you.
> >> >
> >> >Everything you've got is OEM. They're responsible for
> it.
> >> Your mistake was
> >> >buying a motherboard from someone else. Now you have to
> >> deal with it by
> >> >purchasing Windows XP retail, OR, return the new
> >> motherboard and purchase a
> >> >replacement from the OEM.
> >> >
> >> >No other way. Sorry!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
> >> the
> >> >> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
> >> and
> >> >> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
> >> bought
> >> >> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
> >> install.
> >> >> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that
> the
> >> >> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
> >> agreement
> >> >> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
> >> Or,
> >> >> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even
> talk to
> >> >> me. Any suggestions?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >.
> >> >
> >
> >
> >.
> >

Ally

December 5th 03, 10:01 PM

"Harry Ohrn" > wrote:

> No you can't always decide what you want to do with what you
> purchase. I purchased my house. If I decide I want to add a room
> I must get a building permit from the City first.

Point taken; but these things affect the public, whereas no such harm
is done when I wreck a car and attempt to continue using my radio. Or
when I install an OS. That's more like painting my existing bedroom a
new shade of pink (except OEM Pink won't work with third-party walls
for some reason).

> I buy a car. I
> decide to leave it unlocked, running with the keys in the
> ignition. Someone steals it. In my town you are fined for
> leaving an unlocked running car with the keys in the ignition.

And I'd still say you have a right to lose your property. Who does
that law benefit? Insurance companies? The police? The thirteen-year-
olds who might steal your car and get themselves killed in the
process? (Not asking rhethorically, I plain and simple don't know.)

> My car right?, My house right? I hardly think so. For some
> convoluted reason we think that we have full and total rights to
> something because we paid cash for it. Human vanity.

Full and total rights to a cat? The land? A lake? No, I don't think
so either. Yet every day imprisoned animals are industrially
slaughtered, or tortured so we have lip gloss. Legally. Any laws are
debatable.

> The earth was here a billion years before we
> walked the planet and it will be here a billion years after all
> of us are dead and we think we *own* the parcel of land we sit
> on. We own nothing.

But neither cars, nor radios, and certainly nothing as immaterial as
computer programs have been here for a billion years. I don't think
we can take the analogy that far.

What I'm upset about is corporations' decisions to artificially
restrict their products' capabilities and thereby their own
customers. If you don't understand the mindset that produces an
"eula.txt" (and how's _that_ for "convoluted"?), you typically don't
find out about such things until you've already paid for that shiny
new installation CD whirring in your drive.

Naturally, you want to start using your computer rather than return
the product. If that's even possible -- I'm not sure I could've read
the EULA without breaking the seal on the CD case. *shrug*

Other than that -- sure, I don't have to buy their things if I don't
like the terms and conditions I'd have to agree with. It's a pity,
but it seems like I'm just not compatible with Microsoftware.

~Ally
--
Never send a monster to do the work of an evil scientist.

Frank

December 5th 03, 10:01 PM

Software as a Component of the Computer - Transfer. THIS
LICENSE MAY NOT BE SHARED,
TRANSFERRED TO OR USED _CONCURRENTLY_
ON DIFFERENT COMPUTERS

Bruce Chambers wrote:

| Greetings --
|
| You are entitled to be disappointed in the quality of support
| you've received from the PC's manufacturer, yes. The PC's
| manufacturer told you that you couldn't get a free replacement
| motherboard because your warranty had expired. They certainly could
| have done a little better here, by offering alternatives. But you're
| not entirely blameless. But did _you_ ask if a replacement could be
| purchased from them? How much hand-holding and coddling do you need?
|
| For generations, the simple rule has been "Buyer Beware." This
| applies to computers just as much as it does to any other product or
| service. People aren't really scolding you, but you do deserve it, to
| a certain extant. You consciously chose to purchase that specific
| computer from that specific manufacturer with that OEM licensed
| software and that specific warranty, and now you're whining because
| _you_ didn't "read the fine print." Adults accept responsibility for
| the consequences of their actions and decisions, good _and_ bad.
|
|
| Bruce Chambers
|
|
| "Dawn" > wrote in message
| ...
|| The thing is, if I buy a car and it breaks down, I can put
|| a new carburetor in it myself and drive it to work. And if
|| I called my dealership and told them that the carburetor
|| was out, they wouldn't tell me that my warranty was up and
|| hang up. They'd offer me a part, BEFORE I had purchased
|| one from Autozone; especially if they knew that any other
|| brand would not work. I have looked through all the
|| paperwork that came with my pc, there is nothing there
|| telling me that replacement parts are even available from
|| the manuf. As far as reading anything off the HD, you
|| have to be kidding me. Have you been reading the posts?
|| The pc is collecting dust. It doesn't run. Why are so
|| many so quick to scold me? I have a reasonable right to
|| be dissapointed.
||
||| -----Original Message-----
||| It's like anything else you buy -- the salesman isn't
|| going to tell you all
||| the pitfalls of buying his particular product. If you go
|| car shopping, they
||| aren't going to tell you that one model has parts back-
|| ordered for months,
||| they're going to talk about great prices, good gas
|| mileage, etc.
|||
||| As far as MS not supporting OEM software, that
|| information is easily
||| available. There are questions posted on these boards
|| almost daily asking
||| what the difference is between OEM and retail software.
|| As far as Microsoft
||| "warning" you, that information is part of the EULA (end-
|| user license
||| agreement) that you clicked "ok" on when you first got
|| your computer, and
||| that file is still on your computer. As far as not
|| finding it when you
||| looked at MSs web site, what company is going to
|| post "Things we aren't
||| going to do for you under various specific
|| circumstances"? The list would be
||| endless. But the information is there if you look for it.
|||
||| You'll find that it's the same thing with all the "parts"
|| of your old
||| computer. When you tried to get a new motherboard, you
|| went to the company
||| that made the computer, not the company that made the
|| motherboard, right? If
||| you went to the company that made the motherboard, they
|| wouldn't help you.
||| If you had a SoundBlaster sound card in your computer and
|| you had problems
||| with it, they'd tell you to go back to the computer
|| manufacturer, too.
||| That's the way it works.
|||
||| It's really not much different than any OEM product. If
|| you bought a car and
||| the radio blew up, you'd take it back to the car dealer,
|| you wouldn't go
||| back to the company that made the radio or its
|| components. OEM parts,
||| including software, are just like that radio...they're
|| part of the whole
||| thing that you're buying -- either computer or car -- and
|| when you have a
||| problem with any component, you go back to the place that
|| built the whole
||| thing, not to the company that made each component.
|||
||| This probably isn't something that people think about
|| when they buy
||| something, until things go wrong. When you buy your next
|| computer (or
||| anything else, for that matter), you'll have a better
|| idea of what you're
||| really getting for your money.
|||
||| "Dawn" > wrote in message
||| ...
|||| Why am I upset? When the MB first went out and I called
|||| the manuf, the choice of getting parts from them was
|| never
|||| offered. I was told that the warranty was out and that
|||| they could not help me with parts. They could only give
|||| me email support. So, I made the "mistake" of buying a
|||| motherboard and putting it in myself. My other mistake
|||| was thinking that I had purchased a copy of Windows XP
|||| when I purchased my computer. No one educates people
|||| about things like OEMs when they are buying computers.
|||| Microsoft included. When I was buying my computer, I
|| had
|||| a choice of operating systems. I went to Microsoft's
|||| website to get "informed". Nowhere did I see a warning
|||| that if something were to go wrong they would not help
|||| with my copy of their software if I had not purchased
|| from
|||| them. So, I realise now thanks to all of your helpful
|||| responses when you purchase a computer you are NOT
|||| purchasing a copy of windows.
||||| -----Original Message-----
||||| Why do you think that Microsoft should talk to you.
|||||
||||| Everything you've got is OEM. They're responsible for it. Your
||||| mistake was buying a motherboard from someone else. Now you have
||||| to
|||| deal with it by
||||| purchasing Windows XP retail, OR, return the new
|||| motherboard and purchase a
||||| replacement from the OEM.
|||||
||||| No other way. Sorry!
|||||
|||||
||||| "Dawn" > wrote in message
||||| ...
|||||| Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
|||| the
|||||| MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
|||| and
|||||| was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
|||| bought
|||||| a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
|||| install.
|||||| Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that
|| the
|||||| copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
|||| agreement
|||||| with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
|||| Or,
|||||| I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even
|| talk to
|||||| me. Any suggestions?
|||||
|||||
||||| .
|||||
|||
|||
||| .

--
Tampa Bay RR

Chris Fiorentino

December 5th 03, 10:01 PM

Hopefully you won't take this as sarcastic, but I am not trying to be.
I am no expert at all in this stuff, but I have followed the prices
of computers for the last few years. I would think you could buy your
exact same computer that was purchased 11/2001 for less than $500 now,
even if it was the highest end computer at that time. These things
become obsolete within 6 months nowadays. Why would you want to buy a
motherboard, OS, etc. for this one when you can just buy a new one.
Actually, the new one, for under $500, would probably be better than
the one you had before.

Just my $.02.

"Dawn" > wrote in message >...
> Why would you post a reply that is so sarcastic and
> unhelpful? I believe that I stated those two choices in
> me original post. I'm trying to avoid spending even more
> money on a computer that is less than 2 years old. Right
> now, it's collecting dust. No OS.
> >-----Original Message-----
> >Buy another motherboard from the manufacturer, or get a
> retail copy of XP.
> >You don't have any other choice.
> >
> >--
> >Doug Knox, MS-MVP Windows XP/ Windows Smart Display
> >Win 95/98/Me/XP Tweaks and Fixes
> >http://www.dougknox.com
> >--------------------------------
> >Associate Expert
> >ExpertZone - http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
> >--------------------------------
> >Please reply only to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
> >Unsolicited e-mail is not answered.
> >
> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
> the
> >> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
> and
> >> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
> bought
> >> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
> install.
> >> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that the
> >> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
> agreement
> >> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
> Or,
> >> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even talk to
> >> me. Any suggestions?
> >
> >
> >.
> >

D.Currie

December 5th 03, 10:02 PM

"Ally" > wrote in message
4...

<snip>

>
> What I'm upset about is corporations' decisions to artificially
> restrict their products' capabilities and thereby their own
> customers. If you don't understand the mindset that produces an
> "eula.txt" (and how's _that_ for "convoluted"?), you typically don't
> find out about such things until you've already paid for that shiny
> new installation CD whirring in your drive.

There are all sorts of restrictions on products that you probably never even
think about. Some of it has to do with safety or warranty ("do not use in
bathtub" "For home use only"). I'll bet if you "tweaked" your car engine,
you could get higher speeds, but the car maker has intentionally crippled it
to run at less-than-racetrack speeds. And typically, information about
restrictions/warranties/etc. is inside the box with the product, wrapped in
plastic, printed in small print, so you don't see it until you bring the
product home and start setting it up. If you read it at all. I've purchased
products that seem like they'd do what I want, but when I get them home,
they aren't capable of it for one reason or another. The problem certainly
isn't restricted to computers or software.

You can disobey those rules, of course, as there's no way for most products
to keep you from dumping it in the tub or taking it to work with you. And
you can tweak your car engine, if you know how.

Other restrictions protect the copyright owner's rights. As the technology
gets more complicated, the protections get more technical. DVD players only
let you change the region code a certain number of times before they stop
working. Commercial DVDs are supposed to be impossible to copy.

Remember books? Well, you're not supposed to make copies of them and pass
them around to friends. Reasonably, no one is going to take a $5 paperback
to the copy shop and copy the thing a couple dozen times. But take a look at
the restrictions on some of the new commercial e-books. They would be easy
to copy and pass around if the restrictions didn't exist, so there are some
restrictions that users might not like, including the inability to use the
voice reading software on some of them, or the fact that you may not be able
to copy that book to every computer you own. And I have no idea if you could
recover them if your hard drive crashed.

Needless to say, if you can't live with those restrictions, you shouldn't
buy e-books and just stick to the free ones and only buy paper copies that
don't have the technical restrictions on them.

>
> Naturally, you want to start using your computer rather than return
> the product. If that's even possible -- I'm not sure I could've read
> the EULA without breaking the seal on the CD case. *shrug*

If it came WITH the computer, you'd have to return the whole computer, most
likely, or haggle with the computer manufacturer to let you have the
computer without their pre-installed OS. That would be up to them. If it was
retail, you could easily return it directly to MS.

>
> Other than that -- sure, I don't have to buy their things if I don't
> like the terms and conditions I'd have to agree with.

That's pretty much the case with a lot of things that come with licenses,
leases, contracts, or warranties. It's true that most people don't read the
fine print, but that doesn't mean that its not binding. If you start reading
that stuff, you might be surprised at what you're agreeing to by using
certain products. The restrictions have always been in place with MSs
operating systems, it's just that there hasn't been a way to enforce it very
well. So people got used to buying one copy of Windows and putting it on 3
computers. I certainly used to be a lot more cavalier about putting an OS on
a system to test it, and not worry so much about how long it takes before I
take it off and try something else, or strip it down to parts. Now I have to
consider that I'd need to activate in 30 days, and I don't want to tie up a
license on a machine that sees little use. Maybe Linux is fine for a demo
machine or to test parts or run the web cam/print server/whatever.

I think it's interesting that people think software purchases should be
different than other things they buy. For one thing, they think that if they
lose the software, they should get a free replacement, if they haven't lost
all of the components. So I bought a new padlock and lost it, but I still
have the key. Should the company give me a new padlock? Unless there's some
sort of replacement insurance, if you lose something, it's lost. The
manufacturer doesn't replace it. Or at least not without a fee.

Or they lose data, and they expect someone else to take care of that. "I
bought a new wallet, and it fell out of my pocket and all my money blew
away. Who is going to replace the money?

And people expect all sorts of free technical help with computers that they
wouldn't get elsewhere. Go tear apart your car engine, scatter the pieces in
the garage, then start calling the dealership, the car manufacturer, and the
engine manufacturer and see who offers free phone support.

If you break a new product by using it in a way that the warranty doesn't
cover, you won't get a replacement. Most people wouldn't argue that. They
used the carving knife to open a paint can, and now it's bent. Oops. But if
you "break" the software by using it in a way not covered by the fine print,
it's sort of the same situation. That OEM copy of windows from Compaq isn't
supposed to run on your old Gateway. Or that new copy of XP isn't going to
run on your 486.

If you buy a new car, you don't expect that you can start ripping parts out
of the old one and adding them to the new one. And the bigger the age
difference, the less likely it is that parts will be compatible. The tires
might not fit, the leaded fuel could be a problem, etc. But people expect
that every piece of hardware and every bit of software they own should
transfer flawlessly to a new computer with a new OS. Some stuff will
transfer, some won't.

It's a pity,
> but it seems like I'm just not compatible with Microsoftware.

There are software programs that are more restrictive and more annoying than
what MS has implemented. Those other programs tend to have a smaller market
share or special segment of the market, though, so most people haven't run
into them. You'll probably see more companies do what MS has done.

If that's not your cup of tea, there's always Linux. It will run on the
hardware you have.

Harry Ohrn

December 5th 03, 10:06 PM

All is vanity and chasing after the wind.

--

Harry Ohrn MS-MVP [Shell\User]
www.webtree.ca/windowsxp

"Ally" > wrote in message
4...
> "Harry Ohrn" > wrote:
>
> > No you can't always decide what you want to do with what you
> > purchase. I purchased my house. If I decide I want to add a room
> > I must get a building permit from the City first.
>
> Point taken; but these things affect the public, whereas no such harm
> is done when I wreck a car and attempt to continue using my radio. Or
> when I install an OS. That's more like painting my existing bedroom a
> new shade of pink (except OEM Pink won't work with third-party walls
> for some reason).
>
> > I buy a car. I
> > decide to leave it unlocked, running with the keys in the
> > ignition. Someone steals it. In my town you are fined for
> > leaving an unlocked running car with the keys in the ignition.
>
> And I'd still say you have a right to lose your property. Who does
> that law benefit? Insurance companies? The police? The thirteen-year-
> olds who might steal your car and get themselves killed in the
> process? (Not asking rhethorically, I plain and simple don't know.)
>
> > My car right?, My house right? I hardly think so. For some
> > convoluted reason we think that we have full and total rights to
> > something because we paid cash for it. Human vanity.
>
> Full and total rights to a cat? The land? A lake? No, I don't think
> so either. Yet every day imprisoned animals are industrially
> slaughtered, or tortured so we have lip gloss. Legally. Any laws are
> debatable.
>
> > The earth was here a billion years before we
> > walked the planet and it will be here a billion years after all
> > of us are dead and we think we *own* the parcel of land we sit
> > on. We own nothing.
>
> But neither cars, nor radios, and certainly nothing as immaterial as
> computer programs have been here for a billion years. I don't think
> we can take the analogy that far.
>
> What I'm upset about is corporations' decisions to artificially
> restrict their products' capabilities and thereby their own
> customers. If you don't understand the mindset that produces an
> "eula.txt" (and how's _that_ for "convoluted"?), you typically don't
> find out about such things until you've already paid for that shiny
> new installation CD whirring in your drive.
>
> Naturally, you want to start using your computer rather than return
> the product. If that's even possible -- I'm not sure I could've read
> the EULA without breaking the seal on the CD case. *shrug*
>
> Other than that -- sure, I don't have to buy their things if I don't
> like the terms and conditions I'd have to agree with. It's a pity,
> but it seems like I'm just not compatible with Microsoftware.
>
> ~Ally
> --
> Never send a monster to do the work of an evil scientist.

Tom

December 5th 03, 10:07 PM

There is a fellow out there who repairs MB's with blown caps! He
usually visits the ABIT ng.
(ABIT, if you don't know, is a well regarded MB manufacturer. They
pioneered the 'jumperless' MB's where you can change hardware settings
from the BIOS setup screens. Settings like the FSB, multipliers, core
voltages, etc - no need to take the PC apart to make changes.)

Since I'm on the road, I don't have the URL but a search with google
might bring him up for you or go to the ABIT ng and ask around.

This blown caps problem is a known issue, especially with ABIT MB's.
They got hold of a batch of bad ones and used them in their KT7 series
MB's. But, according to the fellow above - other boards are affected
as well.

Apparently a cap mfgr in the pacific rim used a cheap batch of
electrolyte to cut corners.

-=tom=-

>
>"Dawn" > wrote in message
...
> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
> the MB blew ruining the board.

Ally

December 5th 03, 10:07 PM

"Harry Ohrn" > wrote:

> All is vanity and chasing after the wind.

Meow.

Ally

December 5th 03, 10:08 PM

"D.Currie" > wrote:

> There are all sorts of restrictions on products that you
> probably never even think about. Some of it has to do with
> safety or warranty ("do not use in bathtub" "For home use
> only").

What's the nature of those restrictions? What would happen
(legally) if I did use "it" in a bathtub?

[snip]

> I've purchased products that seem
> like they'd do what I want, but when I get them home, they
> aren't capable of it for one reason or another. The problem
> certainly isn't restricted to computers or software.
>
> You can disobey those rules, of course, as there's no way for
> most products to keep you from dumping it in the tub or taking
> it to work with you.

Well, and I hope that won't change. Even though I don't often plan
to electrocute myself, it's a restriction I can ignore, or at least
live with. (Heh.) It's not like I was forbidden to "transfer" my
hair dryer to a new apartment. Though I'm half expecting someone to
point out that that is, indeed, the case by now.

> And you can tweak your car engine, if you
> know how.
>
> Other restrictions protect the copyright owner's rights.

[snipping examples]

> Needless to say, if you can't live with those restrictions, you
> shouldn't buy e-books and just stick to the free ones and only
> buy paper copies that don't have the technical restrictions on
> them.

I can sort-of live with copy protection schemes and the like,
though I sure don't like them (what's with fair use?) and have, so
far, avoided such products effortlessly.

What irks me more is when such restrictions enter the hardware, the
BIOS, device drivers and whatever else the future might bring. I
used to think of multimedia-oriented computers as versatile
creativity tools, not remote-controlled entertainment terminals. Oh
well. I'll just have to avoid such hardware too, then.

I don't want to start a RIAA/MPAA/DMCA/DRM/Palladium-or-whatever-
else-it's-called-now-discussion though.

>> Naturally, you want to start using your computer rather than
>> return the product. If that's even possible -- I'm not sure I
>> could've read the EULA without breaking the seal on the CD
>> case. *shrug*
>
> If it came WITH the computer, you'd have to return the whole
> computer, most likely, or haggle with the computer manufacturer
> to let you have the computer without their pre-installed OS.
> That would be up to them. If it was retail, you could easily
> return it directly to MS.

(It was neither; it was a full installation CD for system builders,
and in and of itself not tied to a specific mainboard. The computer
I installed it on is from '99 or so. But yes, I should've taken the
time to fully understand the intricacies of the EULA, and then try
to return it.)

>> Other than that -- sure, I don't have to buy their things if I
>> don't like the terms and conditions I'd have to agree with.
>
> That's pretty much the case with a lot of things that come with
> licenses, leases, contracts, or warranties. It's true that most
> people don't read the fine print, but that doesn't mean that its
> not binding. If you start reading that stuff, you might be
> surprised at what you're agreeing to by using certain products.

I might also go crazy in the process. Or crazier. *shrug*

> The restrictions have always been in place with MSs operating
> systems, it's just that there hasn't been a way to enforce it
> very well. So people got used to buying one copy of Windows and
> putting it on 3 computers.

Or on one computer at a time, spanning three computers. Right, it
wouldn't have occured to me that something like that might be
against the license until I encountered the WPA. I used to think
"don't pirate the thing, and it'll be okay."

[snippety]

> I think it's interesting that people think software purchases
> should be different than other things they buy. For one thing,
> they think that if they lose the software, they should get a
> free replacement, if they haven't lost all of the components.

And not _entirely_ unreasonably so since, unlike a padlock,
duplicating something immaterial like software doesn't exactly cost
anyone much. But no, I suppose it's not up to the customer to
decide whether such a service should be offered.

> So
> I bought a new padlock and lost it, but I still have the key.
> Should the company give me a new padlock? Unless there's some
> sort of replacement insurance, if you lose something, it's lost.
> The manufacturer doesn't replace it. Or at least not without a
> fee.
>
> Or they lose data, and they expect someone else to take care of
> that. "I bought a new wallet, and it fell out of my pocket and
> all my money blew away. Who is going to replace the money?
>
> And people expect all sorts of free technical help with
> computers that they wouldn't get elsewhere. Go tear apart your
> car engine, scatter the pieces in the garage, then start calling
> the dealership, the car manufacturer, and the engine
> manufacturer and see who offers free phone support.

I'm not sure I understand why you're bringing up these examples
now. I didn't lose or break anything. I didn't get support with XP
anyway, so I'm not demanding any either.

> If you break a new product by using it in a way that the
> warranty doesn't cover, you won't get a replacement. Most people
> wouldn't argue that. They used the carving knife to open a paint
> can, and now it's bent. Oops. But if you "break" the software by
> using it in a way not covered by the fine print, it's sort of
> the same situation. That OEM copy of windows from Compaq isn't
> supposed to run on your old Gateway. Or that new copy of XP
> isn't going to run on your 486.
>
> If you buy a new car, you don't expect that you can start
> ripping parts out of the old one and adding them to the new one.
> And the bigger the age difference, the less likely it is that
> parts will be compatible. The tires might not fit, the leaded
> fuel could be a problem, etc. But people expect that every piece
> of hardware and every bit of software they own should transfer
> flawlessly to a new computer with a new OS. Some stuff will
> transfer, some won't.

I don't expect that where it's technically improbable.

Not that I see a reasonable excuse for not supporting old 720K
floppy disks in XP. For example.

It's a full installation CD and it _will_, most likely, transfer.
It won't neccessarily "activate", though. That's what bugs me. Not
that a compatibility problem wouldn't, but this isn't one.

Maybe the software vendor could have had the decency to point out
that "no support from MS" isn't the _only_ difference between the
"system builder"/OEM and retail versions.

Then again, the people who're supposed to buy these versions (i.e.
OEMs) no doubt already know what they're getting _their_ customers
into.

> It's a pity,
>> but it seems like I'm just not compatible with Microsoftware.
>
> There are software programs that are more restrictive and more
> annoying than what MS has implemented. Those other programs tend
> to have a smaller market share or special segment of the market,
> though, so most people haven't run into them.

Yah... fortunately, much of the software I use is freeware or open
source. I don't ordinarily get to worry about the legal pitfalls of
using things the way I want.

> You'll probably
> see more companies do what MS has done.

It's still more annoying with operating systems than with
applications which can usually be replaced more easily.

> If that's not your cup of tea, there's always Linux. It will run
> on the hardware you have.

So does XP. But yes. I've been flirting with Linux every now and
then, and recent distros do cooperate with most of my hardware.
I'm just not so sure it's the right OS for a graphic designer,
though. Oh, well. I'll find out when I get there.

~Ally
--
Never send a monster to do the work of an evil scientist.

D.Currie

December 5th 03, 10:08 PM

"Ally" > wrote in message
4...
> "D.Currie" > wrote:
>
> > There are all sorts of restrictions on products that you
> > probably never even think about. Some of it has to do with
> > safety or warranty ("do not use in bathtub" "For home use
> > only").
>
> What's the nature of those restrictions? What would happen
> (legally) if I did use "it" in a bathtub?

Your heirs wouldn't be able to get a new one?
heh.

>
> [snip]
<snip again>

>
> (It was neither; it was a full installation CD for system builders,
> and in and of itself not tied to a specific mainboard. The computer
> I installed it on is from '99 or so. But yes, I should've taken the
> time to fully understand the intricacies of the EULA, and then try
> to return it.)

That's one problem with those generic OEM CDs...they're cheaper than retail,
so people buy them, but they're really manufactured for small OEMs to use,
and those OEMs know what the rules are. There's a support mechanism in place
for those OEMs but it doesn't exist for individuals, because that's not
who's supposed to be buying them.

>
<snip>
>
> Or on one computer at a time, spanning three computers. Right, it
> wouldn't have occured to me that something like that might be
> against the license until I encountered the WPA. I used to think
> "don't pirate the thing, and it'll be okay."

With retail, you could hippety-hop that software from one computer to
another with mad abandon. The OEM copies are different.
>
> [snippety]
>
> > I think it's interesting that people think software purchases
> > should be different than other things they buy. For one thing,
> > they think that if they lose the software, they should get a
> > free replacement, if they haven't lost all of the components.
>
> And not _entirely_ unreasonably so since, unlike a padlock,
> duplicating something immaterial like software doesn't exactly cost
> anyone much. But no, I suppose it's not up to the customer to
> decide whether such a service should be offered.

The padlock doesn't cost all that much, either, when it comes down to it,
unless we're talking about some high-security stainless steel monster. But
in general, if a consumer loses something, either he replaces it ot the
insurance company does. I can't think of another instance where a consumer
would expect that the manufacturer would be responsible.

>
> > So
> > I bought a new padlock and lost it, but I still have the key.
> > Should the company give me a new padlock? Unless there's some
> > sort of replacement insurance, if you lose something, it's lost.
> > The manufacturer doesn't replace it. Or at least not without a
> > fee.
> >
> > Or they lose data, and they expect someone else to take care of
> > that. "I bought a new wallet, and it fell out of my pocket and
> > all my money blew away. Who is going to replace the money?
> >
> > And people expect all sorts of free technical help with
> > computers that they wouldn't get elsewhere. Go tear apart your
> > car engine, scatter the pieces in the garage, then start calling
> > the dealership, the car manufacturer, and the engine
> > manufacturer and see who offers free phone support.
>
> I'm not sure I understand why you're bringing up these examples
> now. I didn't lose or break anything. I didn't get support with XP
> anyway, so I'm not demanding any either.

Not necessarily you in particular, I was just ranting. People often come to
these groups complaining about or or the other.

>
<snip>

>
> It's a full installation CD and it _will_, most likely, transfer.
> It won't neccessarily "activate", though. That's what bugs me. Not
> that a compatibility problem wouldn't, but this isn't one.

If it's been more than 120 days since activation, it likely will activate.
If it's been less and you explain that you repaired your computer, you'll
also be able to activate. If you tell them, "I'm moving my oem software from
one computer to another" they'll tell you that you can't.

>
> Maybe the software vendor could have had the decency to point out
> that "no support from MS" isn't the _only_ difference between the
> "system builder"/OEM and retail versions.

It would have been nice, but at least you knew it was oem. Some online
sellers just say that it's the full version, and even show a retail box, but
what they're selling is OEM.

>
> Then again, the people who're supposed to buy these versions (i.e.
> OEMs) no doubt already know what they're getting _their_ customers
> into.

They better. That's what they're in the business for.

<snip>

JAD

December 5th 03, 10:32 PM

You also had some choices to make when you purchased your computer.
1. Did you consider buying an extended warranty? For about $150, I got a
3-yr on-site warranty last yr.
2.Did you use a gold or platinum Visa card (a must for electronic
purchases)? If so, your warranty is doubled up to 1 additional year (as long
as the original warranty is 3 yrs or less)

"Bruce Chambers" > wrote in message
...
> Greetings --
>
> You are entitled to be disappointed in the quality of support
> you've received from the PC's manufacturer, yes. The PC's
> manufacturer told you that you couldn't get a free replacement
> motherboard because your warranty had expired. They certainly could
> have done a little better here, by offering alternatives. But you're
> not entirely blameless. But did _you_ ask if a replacement could be
> purchased from them? How much hand-holding and coddling do you need?
>
> For generations, the simple rule has been "Buyer Beware." This
> applies to computers just as much as it does to any other product or
> service. People aren't really scolding you, but you do deserve it, to
> a certain extant. You consciously chose to purchase that specific
> computer from that specific manufacturer with that OEM licensed
> software and that specific warranty, and now you're whining because
> _you_ didn't "read the fine print." Adults accept responsibility for
> the consequences of their actions and decisions, good _and_ bad.
>
>
> Bruce Chambers
>
> --
> Help us help you:
> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>
> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
> having both at once. -- RAH
>
>
> "Dawn" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The thing is, if I buy a car and it breaks down, I can put
> > a new carburetor in it myself and drive it to work. And if
> > I called my dealership and told them that the carburetor
> > was out, they wouldn't tell me that my warranty was up and
> > hang up. They'd offer me a part, BEFORE I had purchased
> > one from Autozone; especially if they knew that any other
> > brand would not work. I have looked through all the
> > paperwork that came with my pc, there is nothing there
> > telling me that replacement parts are even available from
> > the manuf. As far as reading anything off the HD, you
> > have to be kidding me. Have you been reading the posts?
> > The pc is collecting dust. It doesn't run. Why are so
> > many so quick to scold me? I have a reasonable right to
> > be dissapointed.
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >It's like anything else you buy -- the salesman isn't
> > going to tell you all
> > >the pitfalls of buying his particular product. If you go
> > car shopping, they
> > >aren't going to tell you that one model has parts back-
> > ordered for months,
> > >they're going to talk about great prices, good gas
> > mileage, etc.
> > >
> > >As far as MS not supporting OEM software, that
> > information is easily
> > >available. There are questions posted on these boards
> > almost daily asking
> > >what the difference is between OEM and retail software.
> > As far as Microsoft
> > >"warning" you, that information is part of the EULA (end-
> > user license
> > >agreement) that you clicked "ok" on when you first got
> > your computer, and
> > >that file is still on your computer. As far as not
> > finding it when you
> > >looked at MSs web site, what company is going to
> > post "Things we aren't
> > >going to do for you under various specific
> > circumstances"? The list would be
> > >endless. But the information is there if you look for it.
> > >
> > >You'll find that it's the same thing with all the "parts"
> > of your old
> > >computer. When you tried to get a new motherboard, you
> > went to the company
> > >that made the computer, not the company that made the
> > motherboard, right? If
> > >you went to the company that made the motherboard, they
> > wouldn't help you.
> > >If you had a SoundBlaster sound card in your computer and
> > you had problems
> > >with it, they'd tell you to go back to the computer
> > manufacturer, too.
> > >That's the way it works.
> > >
> > >It's really not much different than any OEM product. If
> > you bought a car and
> > >the radio blew up, you'd take it back to the car dealer,
> > you wouldn't go
> > >back to the company that made the radio or its
> > components. OEM parts,
> > >including software, are just like that radio...they're
> > part of the whole
> > >thing that you're buying -- either computer or car -- and
> > when you have a
> > >problem with any component, you go back to the place that
> > built the whole
> > >thing, not to the company that made each component.
> > >
> > >This probably isn't something that people think about
> > when they buy
> > >something, until things go wrong. When you buy your next
> > computer (or
> > >anything else, for that matter), you'll have a better
> > idea of what you're
> > >really getting for your money.
> > >
> > >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> Why am I upset? When the MB first went out and I called
> > >> the manuf, the choice of getting parts from them was
> > never
> > >> offered. I was told that the warranty was out and that
> > >> they could not help me with parts. They could only give
> > >> me email support. So, I made the "mistake" of buying a
> > >> motherboard and putting it in myself. My other mistake
> > >> was thinking that I had purchased a copy of Windows XP
> > >> when I purchased my computer. No one educates people
> > >> about things like OEMs when they are buying computers.
> > >> Microsoft included. When I was buying my computer, I
> > had
> > >> a choice of operating systems. I went to Microsoft's
> > >> website to get "informed". Nowhere did I see a warning
> > >> that if something were to go wrong they would not help
> > >> with my copy of their software if I had not purchased
> > from
> > >> them. So, I realise now thanks to all of your helpful
> > >> responses when you purchase a computer you are NOT
> > >> purchasing a copy of windows.
> > >> >-----Original Message-----
> > >> >Why do you think that Microsoft should talk to you.
> > >> >
> > >> >Everything you've got is OEM. They're responsible for
> > it.
> > >> Your mistake was
> > >> >buying a motherboard from someone else. Now you have to
> > >> deal with it by
> > >> >purchasing Windows XP retail, OR, return the new
> > >> motherboard and purchase a
> > >> >replacement from the OEM.
> > >> >
> > >> >No other way. Sorry!
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >"Dawn" > wrote in message
> > >> ...
> > >> >> Have a computer purchased 11/2001. The capacitors on
> > >> the
> > >> >> MB blew ruining the board. I called the manufacturer
> > >> and
> > >> >> was told that the warranty was out, too bad. So, I
> > >> bought
> > >> >> a new MB and put it in, now the OEM won't let me
> > >> install.
> > >> >> Called the manuf. back and they are telling me that
> > the
> > >> >> copy of XP is BIOS specific per their licensing
> > >> agreement
> > >> >> with MS and that I should go buy a retail copy of XP.
> > >> Or,
> > >> >> I could buy another MB from them. MS won't even
> > talk to
> > >> >> me. Any suggestions?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >.
> > >> >
> > >
> > >
> > >.
> > >
>
>