Desperately Need Help - System Reboot/Crashes

[Don Cohen]

I desperately need help on the following problem which has stumped me (and
everybody else) for the last several weeks. I apologize for the length of
this post, but there's no other way to adequately document it.

System: a 2 year old Gateway 700XL running XP Home. 1 gb RAM. ATI 8500 64
mb VideoCard. 18.1" FPD 1810 LCD monitor using DVI connection. From the
very beginning I have run ZoneAlarm, NAV 2002 and then 2003 when my initial
subscription ran out, scan with NAV weekly, install all Critical Updates
when available.

The system has run virtually flawlessly since I bought it with one fairly
infrequent glitch that others with this system have experienced whose cause
has never been identified. Whether this is connected to the current more
serious problem is unknown. Sporadically, under random circumstances, the
monitor would go black for about 2 or 3 seconds, would then come back on,
with nothing else occurring. This would happen once every few months,
occasionally more frequently. I researched this on the newsgroups - people
updated drivers, replaced VideoCards, etc., but nothing seemed to
consistently work for all involved. It seemed harmless, and so I just lived
with it.

The problem now: the system would, out of nowhere, spontaneously reboot.
This first occurred Dec. 24, 2003, when my daughter (26 years old and not
doing anything more than surfing the web) was at the computer. She told me
about it, but I couldn't find anything. It didn't happen again for close to
a month, and over the past month it has become a recurring problem. It may
run a few minutes, a few hours, a few days, before the problem recurs.

I have wondered if there was a relation to the 'black-out' glitch, as it
would seemingly start the same: the monitor goes black, and then after a
second or so instead of coming back on like it did in the past, it would
reboot. Again, I don't know if this is connected or a coincidence.

Trouble-shooting so far:

I disabled the 'reboot automatically' checkbox in order to find out what was
going on. So now instead of rebooting, I received the following BSOD:

A problem has been detected and windows has been shut down to prevent damage
to your computer

"PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA

****STOP: 0x00000050 (0xB7874E5E, 0x00000000, 0xB7874E5E, 0x00000000)

Beginning dump of physical memory

Physical memory dump complete"

1.. I researched this on the web, and found that the most likely cause of
something like this was a hardware error, with RAM, hot CPU and Power Supply
the most likely culprits.

2.. I opened the case and verified that the fan was working fine. The
computer would also do the reboot within minutes after being off all night,
seemingly making heat an unlikely cause.

3.. I downloaded memtest86.exe from the web, created a bootable CD with
it, and ran it overnight, selecting All Tests and after 6 ½ hours, and more
than 2 full passes, no errors were detected.

4.. I replaced the originial 250W Power Supply with an Antec 430W TruPower
unit. The computer ran fine for almost 48 hours, and then rebooted.

5.. I brought it to a local computer repair shop, and they couldn't
diagnose any specific hardware problem. Because we both suggested a
VideoCard issue, we put in a new ATI Radeon 9200SE 128 mb card. This time
it
ran for about an hour before it again did the same thing. This time a
slightly different 'b.s.o.d.' came up:

0x0000008E, 0xB7874E5F, 0xB6A2E728, 0x00000000 and another time:

0x0000008E, 0xB7874E60, 0xB6A2E728, 0x00000000

6.. I next went into Windows Recovery Console, and ran CHKDSK /R. It
indicated that it found and fixed some problems. It now ran fine for almost
72 hours and then the reboot again occurred.

7.. This time, I couldn't even boot back into the Recovery Console, even
when I booted from the XP Home CD. It would get to the point when I would
select the c:\winnt installation, and it would then reboot.

8.. In desperation, I brought the system to a Gateway Country Store. They
said they tested the motherboard, RAM, etc., and found no hardware problems.
They said they found and removed the Welchia worm. I was extremely doubtful
about this, given how I maintain my computer. But that's all they had to
offer. I took it home, it ran for about 30 hours, and the same crash
occurred, with the same original BSOD message (the original VideoCard had
been reinstalled, with the driver updated by Gateway when they had the
machine).

9.. I have also downloaded and run 'blastfix.exe' just in case something
had somehow got through, but it was negative.

10.. I have installed Windows Support Tools, in order to use dumpchk.exe
to look at the minidump files created when these events occurred, but I was
not able to identify anything useful in these files as far as suggesting the
source of this problem.

11.. These reboots have occurred from within a normal boot to Windows,
from within Safe Mode, and even on a few occasions when just trying to boot
into Windows Recovery Console when booting from the XP CD.

Gateway says the next step is to reformat the hard drive. I am willing and
able to do this, but I'm just not convinced this is a software issue,
especially when considering point # 11 above. But I am also out of ideas on
what to do next.

One final detail: the system came with a 120 GB Hard Drive. I used
Partition Magic 8.0 to shrink the OS/Applications to an 11 gb partition, and
have the rest for Data Files (c:\ and h:\ respectively). This was done
within the first few months of buying the computer. I use DriveImage 2002
every few months to image the c:\ drive, and have ones from December 7, 2003
and September 13, 2003 available. I have a second hard drive installed as
well (d:\) where these files are located. I can restore one of these, but
again I am not convinced this is a software issue.

I suspect, but don't know, that this is a sporadic hardware issue -
motherboard, CPU, RAM, I just don't know.


So there it is. I have a computer that is essential useless as I never know
if it will run 5 minutes, 5 hours or 5 days before it crashes. Please let
me know if you have any idea of where the problem is, or what I can do next
to pinpoint and fix it.

Thanks for wading through all of this.

Hopefully,

---
Don Cohen
Photo Website at:
http://www.dlcphotography.net

[CWatters]

"Don Cohen" > wrote in message
...

> A problem has been detected and windows has been shut down to prevent
damage
> to your computer
>
> "PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA
>
> ****STOP: 0x00000050 (0xB7874E5E, 0x00000000, 0xB7874E5E, 0x00000000)

Does it say anything else before the PAGE_FAULT on screen? (For example
"win32k.sys had caused a PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA etc")

I assume there is no more info in the System Event logs (use Event Viewer)?

A web search on "ATI 8500 PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA STOP: 0x00000050" gets
a few hits including....
a) http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/6302/
...which seems to blame ati3d2ag.dll or possibly an IRQ conflict.

b) http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/viewthread.php?tid=9689

c) http://www.experts-exchange.com/Hardware/Q_20734080.html (scroll down)
Perhaps it's worth updating the drviers for the ATI card from their web
site if you haven't already done so.

d) This site in German seems to point the finger at something called
"PCAnywhere" if I got the translation right...
http://www.mcseboard.de/archiv/28/2003/07/2/7833

Quote: I experienced this same problem on my Dell Inspiron 8500. First I
thought, that SP1 caused the blue screen, but, after I your posts (I speak
English), translated and read, regarded I the programs, which I attached,
and I found, that pcAnywhere 10.5 the problem caused. After I deinstalliert
pcAnywhere, the problem away. End Quote:


I expect you have already seen these from MS....
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;329293

and the more general guides..

http://aumha.org/win5/kbestop.php

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/reskit/prmd_stp_ccgm.asp

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/reskit/prmd_stp_hyzf.asp

If you know what make/model of motherboard you have try a web search on..

"<motherboard> PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA STOP: 0x00000050"

Colin (not an MVP)

[Don Cohen]

Many thanks, Lance. I'll send them in a few minutes.

Don

"Microsoft Video Driver OCA Triage" > wrote in message
...
> Don,
> I would like to take a look at the minidumps that are created when
your
> system crashes. You can find these at c:\windows\minidump. If you could
> attached the most recent 5-10 of these and mail them to
> that would be great. I will get back to you on what
> seems to be causing your problem and hopefully have a suggested course of
> action to fix your problem(s).
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Lance Naugle
> Microsoft Video Driver OCA Triage
>
> * This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights.
>

[Microsoft Video Driver OCA Triage]

Don,
I would like to take a look at the minidumps that are created when your
system crashes. You can find these at c:\windows\minidump. If you could
attached the most recent 5-10 of these and mail them to
that would be great. I will get back to you on what
seems to be causing your problem and hopefully have a suggested course of
action to fix your problem(s).

--
Thanks,
Lance Naugle
Microsoft Video Driver OCA Triage

* This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights.

"Don Cohen" > wrote in message
...
> I desperately need help on the following problem which has stumped me (and
> everybody else) for the last several weeks. I apologize for the length of
> this post, but there's no other way to adequately document it.
>
> System: a 2 year old Gateway 700XL running XP Home. 1 gb RAM. ATI 8500 64
> mb VideoCard. 18.1" FPD 1810 LCD monitor using DVI connection. From the
> very beginning I have run ZoneAlarm, NAV 2002 and then 2003 when my
initial
> subscription ran out, scan with NAV weekly, install all Critical Updates
> when available.
>
> The system has run virtually flawlessly since I bought it with one fairly
> infrequent glitch that others with this system have experienced whose
cause
> has never been identified. Whether this is connected to the current more
> serious problem is unknown. Sporadically, under random circumstances, the
> monitor would go black for about 2 or 3 seconds, would then come back on,
> with nothing else occurring. This would happen once every few months,
> occasionally more frequently. I researched this on the newsgroups -
people
> updated drivers, replaced VideoCards, etc., but nothing seemed to
> consistently work for all involved. It seemed harmless, and so I just
lived
> with it.
>
> The problem now: the system would, out of nowhere, spontaneously reboot.
> This first occurred Dec. 24, 2003, when my daughter (26 years old and not
> doing anything more than surfing the web) was at the computer. She told
me
> about it, but I couldn't find anything. It didn't happen again for close
to
> a month, and over the past month it has become a recurring problem. It
may
> run a few minutes, a few hours, a few days, before the problem recurs.
>
> I have wondered if there was a relation to the 'black-out' glitch, as it
> would seemingly start the same: the monitor goes black, and then after a
> second or so instead of coming back on like it did in the past, it would
> reboot. Again, I don't know if this is connected or a coincidence.
>
> Trouble-shooting so far:
>
> I disabled the 'reboot automatically' checkbox in order to find out what
was
> going on. So now instead of rebooting, I received the following BSOD:
>
> A problem has been detected and windows has been shut down to prevent
damage
> to your computer
>
> "PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA
>
> ****STOP: 0x00000050 (0xB7874E5E, 0x00000000, 0xB7874E5E, 0x00000000)
>
> Beginning dump of physical memory
>
> Physical memory dump complete"
>
> 1.. I researched this on the web, and found that the most likely cause
of
> something like this was a hardware error, with RAM, hot CPU and Power
Supply
> the most likely culprits.
>
> 2.. I opened the case and verified that the fan was working fine. The
> computer would also do the reboot within minutes after being off all
night,
> seemingly making heat an unlikely cause.
>
> 3.. I downloaded memtest86.exe from the web, created a bootable CD with
> it, and ran it overnight, selecting All Tests and after 6 ½ hours, and
more
> than 2 full passes, no errors were detected.
>
> 4.. I replaced the originial 250W Power Supply with an Antec 430W
TruPower
> unit. The computer ran fine for almost 48 hours, and then rebooted.
>
> 5.. I brought it to a local computer repair shop, and they couldn't
> diagnose any specific hardware problem. Because we both suggested a
> VideoCard issue, we put in a new ATI Radeon 9200SE 128 mb card. This time
> it
> ran for about an hour before it again did the same thing. This time a
> slightly different 'b.s.o.d.' came up:
>
> 0x0000008E, 0xB7874E5F, 0xB6A2E728, 0x00000000 and another time:
>
> 0x0000008E, 0xB7874E60, 0xB6A2E728, 0x00000000
>
> 6.. I next went into Windows Recovery Console, and ran CHKDSK /R. It
> indicated that it found and fixed some problems. It now ran fine for
almost
> 72 hours and then the reboot again occurred.
>
> 7.. This time, I couldn't even boot back into the Recovery Console, even
> when I booted from the XP Home CD. It would get to the point when I would
> select the c:\winnt installation, and it would then reboot.
>
> 8.. In desperation, I brought the system to a Gateway Country Store.
They
> said they tested the motherboard, RAM, etc., and found no hardware
problems.
> They said they found and removed the Welchia worm. I was extremely
doubtful
> about this, given how I maintain my computer. But that's all they had to
> offer. I took it home, it ran for about 30 hours, and the same crash
> occurred, with the same original BSOD message (the original VideoCard had
> been reinstalled, with the driver updated by Gateway when they had the
> machine).
>
> 9.. I have also downloaded and run 'blastfix.exe' just in case something
> had somehow got through, but it was negative.
>
> 10.. I have installed Windows Support Tools, in order to use dumpchk.exe
> to look at the minidump files created when these events occurred, but I
was
> not able to identify anything useful in these files as far as suggesting
the
> source of this problem.
>
> 11.. These reboots have occurred from within a normal boot to Windows,
> from within Safe Mode, and even on a few occasions when just trying to
boot
> into Windows Recovery Console when booting from the XP CD.
>
> Gateway says the next step is to reformat the hard drive. I am willing
and
> able to do this, but I'm just not convinced this is a software issue,
> especially when considering point # 11 above. But I am also out of ideas
on
> what to do next.
>
> One final detail: the system came with a 120 GB Hard Drive. I used
> Partition Magic 8.0 to shrink the OS/Applications to an 11 gb partition,
and
> have the rest for Data Files (c:\ and h:\ respectively). This was done
> within the first few months of buying the computer. I use DriveImage 2002
> every few months to image the c:\ drive, and have ones from December 7,
2003
> and September 13, 2003 available. I have a second hard drive installed as
> well (d:\) where these files are located. I can restore one of these, but
> again I am not convinced this is a software issue.
>
> I suspect, but don't know, that this is a sporadic hardware issue -
> motherboard, CPU, RAM, I just don't know.
>
>
> So there it is. I have a computer that is essential useless as I never
know
> if it will run 5 minutes, 5 hours or 5 days before it crashes. Please let
> me know if you have any idea of where the problem is, or what I can do
next
> to pinpoint and fix it.
>
> Thanks for wading through all of this.
>
> Hopefully,
>
> ---
> Don Cohen
> Photo Website at:
> http://www.dlcphotography.net
>
>

[CWatters]

"Don Cohen" > wrote in message
...

> Is my thinking correct here?

Google also gets a few hits for Norton Antivirus in association with this
error so it's hard to be sure.

[Don Cohen]

"CWatters" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Don Cohen" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Is my thinking correct here?
>
> Google also gets a few hits for Norton Antivirus in association with this
> error so it's hard to be sure.


Have you found hits for this error occurring even when booting from the XP
CD? If so I haven't seen/found them, and would love to examine them. If
you wouldn't mind posting the link, I would appreciate it.

It seems that this (or similar) stop messages occur in a wide variety of
circumstances, some hardware, soft software (Lexar reader driver, NAV, ATI
drivers, etc.). But what makes me inclined to conclude that in my case it's
hardware is that the reboot occurred on a couple of occasions when booting
directly from the XP CD, trying to access the Windows Recovery Console, when
I selected the (only) XP partition present on my system. At that level, as
far as I know, no files/drivers/etc. from my hard drive were loaded or in
use, effectively eliminating a software cause to the problem.

Again, if you or someone else sees a flaw in my thinkng here, please point
it out.

Thanks again.

Don

[Alex Nichol]

Don Cohen wrote:

>
>I suspect, but don't know, that this is a sporadic hardware issue -
>motherboard, CPU, RAM, I just don't know.
>
>
>So there it is. I have a computer that is essential useless as I never know
>if it will run 5 minutes, 5 hours or 5 days before it crashes. Please let
>me know if you have any idea of where the problem is, or what I can do next
>to pinpoint and fix it.

That is what it sounds like to me, and they are the very devil to pin
point. One suggestion: is your RAM in two modules? If so it may be a
mismatch problem between them - a point that a test like memtest86 will
not show up, But Windows is very fussy about the match. If you have
two modules, I suggest running MSconfig and on the boot.ini page click
Advanced. There use 'Limit memory to' and use a size corresponding to
just the one module. (this is easier than physically removing one).

Also - you said fan was working, but have you checked actual
temperature. Most machines have the sensors these days. get the free
Aida 32, enterprise edition from
http://www.aida32.hu/aida-download.php?bit=32
which is an excellent general System Info tool, and its Computer -
Sensor page will tell you cpu temp. Up to around 60C - 140F should
not be giving problems, and some AMD CPUs run hotter than that


--
Alex Nichol MS MVP (Windows Technologies)
Bournemouth, U.K. (remove the D8 bit)

[Bob Dietz]

Alex Nichol wrote:

> Don Cohen wrote:
>
>
>>I suspect, but don't know, that this is a sporadic hardware issue -
>>motherboard, CPU, RAM, I just don't know.
>>
>>
>>So there it is. I have a computer that is essential useless as I never know
>>if it will run 5 minutes, 5 hours or 5 days before it crashes. Please let
>>me know if you have any idea of where the problem is, or what I can do next
>>to pinpoint and fix it.
>
>
> That is what it sounds like to me, and they are the very devil to pin
> point. One suggestion: is your RAM in two modules? If so it may be a
> mismatch problem between them - a point that a test like memtest86 will
> not show up, But Windows is very fussy about the match. If you have
> two modules, I suggest running MSconfig and on the boot.ini page click
> Advanced. There use 'Limit memory to' and use a size corresponding to
> just the one module. (this is easier than physically removing one).

Don't know for sure, but I suspect that may not be good advice.
Won't you end up with some memory used from both modules?

My warped reasoning:
I know Windows 9x loads into the upper portion of memory and suspect
the same is true for Windows NT/2K/XP. Some hardware registers are mapped
to into the bottom of memory.

Having the above doubts, I'd physically remove modules, try different
slots.

Docmem or a similar DOS based (floppy boot disk) memory test program
wouldn't hurt either. (DocMem is free from SimTester.com)
http://www.simmtester.com/PAGE/products/doc/docinfo.asp

>
> Also - you said fan was working, but have you checked actual
> temperature. Most machines have the sensors these days. get the free
> Aida 32, enterprise edition from
> http://www.aida32.hu/aida-download.php?bit=32
> which is an excellent general System Info tool, and its Computer -
> Sensor page will tell you cpu temp. Up to around 60C - 140F should
> not be giving problems, and some AMD CPUs run hotter than that

One other thought. Get into the bios (watch for correct key to press as
the system boots) and look for the entry that resets everything to
safe/conservative settings.

Bob

[Don Cohen]

Hi Alex,

First, thanks much for the reply.

> That is what it sounds like to me, and they are the very devil to pin
> point. One suggestion: is your RAM in two modules? If so it may be a
> mismatch problem between them - a point that a test like memtest86 will
> not show up, But Windows is very fussy about the match. If you have
> two modules, I suggest running MSconfig and on the boot.ini page click
> Advanced. There use 'Limit memory to' and use a size corresponding to
> just the one module. (this is easier than physically removing one).

This system has 4 256 mb modules, all original equipment when I purchased it
new from Gateway. Would this eliminate a mismatch issue?

Someone else also suggested a trial/error approach of removing a module at a
time. Tedious, but I guess I don't have a lot of choice. Would a computer
repair shop have hardware-based tools to more efficiently diagnose a bad RAM
module?

> Also - you said fan was working, but have you checked actual
> temperature. Most machines have the sensors these days. get the free
> Aida 32, enterprise edition from
> http://www.aida32.hu/aida-download.php?bit=32
> which is an excellent general System Info tool, and its Computer -
> Sensor page will tell you cpu temp. Up to around 60C - 140F should
> not be giving problems, and some AMD CPUs run hotter than that

I'll definitely give this a try.

Also - will this utility measure "Vcore"? I ask because my research turned
up a post by someone with a similar but not identical problem, and he traced
it down to a "Vcore" issue. Now I don't know exactly what this is, but I am
assuming it's a voltage within the CPU, and if defective would require a new
CPU??

Thanks again.

Don

[Don Cohen]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the reply.

> Don't know for sure, but I suspect that may not be good advice.
> Won't you end up with some memory used from both modules?
>
> My warped reasoning:
> I know Windows 9x loads into the upper portion of memory and suspect
> the same is true for Windows NT/2K/XP. Some hardware registers are mapped
> to into the bottom of memory.
>
> Having the above doubts, I'd physically remove modules, try different
> slots.

I'll leave it to Alex to respond to this point, but as I asked him, isn't
there a more definitive hardware-based way to specifically diagnose a bad
RAM module?

> Docmem or a similar DOS based (floppy boot disk) memory test program
> wouldn't hurt either. (DocMem is free from SimTester.com)
> http://www.simmtester.com/PAGE/products/doc/docinfo.asp

Is this any better than memtest86? I created a bootable CD which
automatically runs memtest86. It's been going 13 hours now, 6 full passes,
and no errors corrected.

> One other thought. Get into the bios (watch for correct key to press as
> the system boots) and look for the entry that resets everything to
> safe/conservative settings.

A reasonable thought, but since I haven't changed any BIOS settings in close
to 2 years, if this fixed it, what would this mean?

Thanks again.

Don

[Bob Dietz]

Don Cohen wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
>
>>Don't know for sure, but I suspect that may not be good advice.
>>Won't you end up with some memory used from both modules?
>>
>>My warped reasoning:
>>I know Windows 9x loads into the upper portion of memory and suspect
>>the same is true for Windows NT/2K/XP. Some hardware registers are mapped
>>to into the bottom of memory.
>>
>>Having the above doubts, I'd physically remove modules, try different
>>slots.
>
>
> I'll leave it to Alex to respond to this point, but as I asked him, isn't
> there a more definitive hardware-based way to specifically diagnose a bad
> RAM module?

Yes. But I think they are something like $1000 - $5000 for a bare unit.
And different types of memory SD vs DDR vs RAMBUS require different
testers. (Click SHOP on the previously cited DocMem download page.)

Most local repair shops will probably just swap modules around
(with "known good" modules) to test. Maybe put your modules into
another machine.

>
>
>>Docmem or a similar DOS based (floppy boot disk) memory test program
>>wouldn't hurt either. (DocMem is free from SimTester.com)
>>http://www.simmtester.com/PAGE/products/doc/docinfo.asp
>
>
> Is this any better than memtest86? I created a bootable CD which
> automatically runs memtest86. It's been going 13 hours now, 6 full passes,
> and no errors corrected.
>
>
>>One other thought. Get into the bios (watch for correct key to press as
>>the system boots) and look for the entry that resets everything to
>>safe/conservative settings.
>
>
> A reasonable thought, but since I haven't changed any BIOS settings in close
> to 2 years, if this fixed it, what would this mean?

This is one of those things where you think, "This is unlikely. But it sure is
easy to test!"

Some possibilities.

CMOS memory bit got mangled by a power spike.
Time to replace the battery on the MB. (Maybe Gateway had a poor batch.)
Somebody else changed it - grandchild/neighbor kid ...
CMOS memory going bad. (Never heard of this, but possible.)

I'm not a hardware tech, so there might be more.

> Thanks again.
>
> Don
>
>

[Don Cohen]

Bob,

Thanks again.

> > A reasonable thought, but since I haven't changed any BIOS settings in
close
> > to 2 years, if this fixed it, what would this mean?
>
> This is one of those things where you think, "This is unlikely. But it
sure is
> easy to test!"
>
> Some possibilities.
>
> CMOS memory bit got mangled by a power spike.
> Time to replace the battery on the MB. (Maybe Gateway had a poor batch.)
> Somebody else changed it - grandchild/neighbor kid ...
> CMOS memory going bad. (Never heard of this, but possible.)
>
> I'm not a hardware tech, so there might be more.

Interesting thought.

I was into the BIOS yesterday, just looking, and didn't see anything that
seemed out of the ordinary. But I was surprised that, for example, I could
find no way to disable L2 cache - the L2 cache capacity (512) was shown, but
there was no way to select it, disable it, etc. I could get into various
other parameters (IDE drives, peripherals, etc., etc.) but really nothing
pertaining to the CPU.

I guess this could just be the normal limitations of this particular BIOS,
but I really don't know.

Thanks.

Don

[Don Cohen]

Hi Alex,

> Also - you said fan was working, but have you checked actual
> temperature. Most machines have the sensors these days. get the free
> Aida 32, enterprise edition from
> http://www.aida32.hu/aida-download.php?bit=32
> which is an excellent general System Info tool, and its Computer -
> Sensor page will tell you cpu temp. Up to around 60C - 140F should
> not be giving problems, and some AMD CPUs run hotter than that

Here is the information obtained using the AIDA32 program:

Intel Pentium 4A (Northwood) 2.2 GHz (5.5x400)

Temperatures:
Motherboard 111 F
CPU 113 F

Cooling Fans:
CPU 3723 RPM

Voltage Values:
CPU Core 1.44V
+2.5V 2.46V
+3.3V 3.28V
+5V 5.03V

These values seem to be in order, from the little I've learned about these
things today. Do you see anything amiss here?

Do these values lead towards a more specific idea of which hardware
component is faulty?

I ran memtest86 from 13.5 hours, 7 full passes - no errors. I will call the
local computer repair store and see what hardware they have to specifically
diagnose RAM or other hardware faults.

Thanks again.

Don

[Bob Dietz]

Don Cohen wrote:

> I was into the BIOS yesterday, just looking, and didn't see anything that
> seemed out of the ordinary. But I was surprised that, for example, I could
> find no way to disable L2 cache - the L2 cache capacity (512) was shown, but
> there was no way to select it, disable it, etc. I could get into various
> other parameters (IDE drives, peripherals, etc., etc.) but really nothing
> pertaining to the CPU.

I'd forgot, but in your first post you mentioned it an old Gateway.
Gateway, Dell and other large OEM's in general don't give you many choices in
their bios. (Fewer choices = fewer things for tech support to diagnose.)

Usually there is something about restoring safe or default settings though.

If you don't find that setting, there is probably a jumper on the motherboard
to reset the bios to defaults. Call up Gateway tech support and tell them
you want to try that.

Bob

[Don Cohen]

Bob,

> I'd forgot, but in your first post you mentioned it an old Gateway.
> Gateway, Dell and other large OEM's in general don't give you many choices
in
> their bios. (Fewer choices = fewer things for tech support to diagnose.)
>
> Usually there is something about restoring safe or default settings
though.
>
> If you don't find that setting, there is probably a jumper on the
motherboard
> to reset the bios to defaults. Call up Gateway tech support and tell them
> you want to try that.

Yeah, you're probably right. There is an option to restore defaults, or
something like that.

As I posted separately, I ran AIDA32 and found the relevant voltages and
temperatures. One other individual who is working with me outside the
newsgroup feels that one value in particular is the problem. My CPU Core
Voltage reads between 1.43 and 1.45 Volts. According to him, and this link
(http://www.dirkvader.de/frame.php?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dirkvader.de%2Fpag e
%2Fverlust2.html) the VCore should be 1.5V (or likely a little bit higher).
He indicated that variances of even 0.025V are significant.

He also thought the relatively low temperature in my CPU (varying between
102 and 113 F - I thought it was good to be relatively cool) was too low and
also reflected a too low CPU Core Voltage.

If this is correct, I'm still not sure how to fix it (buy new motherboard,
CPU?), and am waiting for his next reply after I sent him the specs on my
motherboard and BIOS.

Don

[Bob Dietz]

Don Cohen wrote:

> Bob,
>
>
>>I'd forgot, but in your first post you mentioned it an old Gateway.
>>Gateway, Dell and other large OEM's in general don't give you many choices
>
> in
>
>>their bios. (Fewer choices = fewer things for tech support to diagnose.)
>>
>>Usually there is something about restoring safe or default settings
>
> though.
>
>>If you don't find that setting, there is probably a jumper on the
>
> motherboard
>
>>to reset the bios to defaults. Call up Gateway tech support and tell them
>>you want to try that.
>
>
> Yeah, you're probably right. There is an option to restore defaults, or
> something like that.
>
> As I posted separately, I ran AIDA32 and found the relevant voltages and
> temperatures. One other individual who is working with me outside the
> newsgroup feels that one value in particular is the problem. My CPU Core
> Voltage reads between 1.43 and 1.45 Volts. According to him, and this link
> (http://www.dirkvader.de/frame.php?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dirkvader.de%2Fpag e
> %2Fverlust2.html) the VCore should be 1.5V (or likely a little bit higher).
> He indicated that variances of even 0.025V are significant.
>
> He also thought the relatively low temperature in my CPU (varying between
> 102 and 113 F - I thought it was good to be relatively cool) was too low and
> also reflected a too low CPU Core Voltage.
>
> If this is correct, I'm still not sure how to fix it (buy new motherboard,
> CPU?), and am waiting for his next reply after I sent him the specs on my
> motherboard and BIOS.
>
> Don
>
>

Again, I'm not a hardware tech, but low core voltage sounds concievable.
What are the details of the CPU ID and Motherboard ID?
In your original post, you said this is a Gateway 700XL.
I can't find that on Gateway's site.

Don't place too much faith in the +3.3 V, +5 V and +12 V values
reported by AIDA32 or any other software based tool.
If you check with a multi-meter at the ATX power connector
( http://xtronics.com/reference/atx_pinout.htm ), you'll
see those values are only approximate. Based on my limited experience,
the software values vary by +- 5% (or more) from what you'd see with
a digital multi-meter.

The motherboard derives the core voltage from power supply line -
(+3.3V or from +5 V but I'm not sure which it is).

Does AIDA32 report those values as low? Since you've got a nice, new Antec 430
TruPower, I doublt they are.

Bob

[Don Cohen]

Bob,

> Again, I'm not a hardware tech, but low core voltage sounds concievable.
> What are the details of the CPU ID and Motherboard ID?
> In your original post, you said this is a Gateway 700XL.
> I can't find that on Gateway's site.

This system is about 2 years old, so not a current model.

CPUID Manufacturer GenuineIntel
CPUID CPU Name Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.20GHz
CPUID Revision 0F24h
IA Brand ID 09h (Intel Pentium 4A)
Platform ID 0Fh (Socket 478)
IA CPU Serial Number Unknown




In another section it identifies the CPU as Pentium 4 (Northwood).


Motherboard ID 51-2300-000000-00101111-030199-$MV850
Motherboard Name Intel Maryville D850MV


(sorry for the formatting - this is copied/pasted from the AIDA32's HTML
Summary Report and I can't seem to get it in as plain text.)

> Don't place too much faith in the +3.3 V, +5 V and +12 V values
> reported by AIDA32 or any other software based tool.
> If you check with a multi-meter at the ATX power connector
> ( http://xtronics.com/reference/atx_pinout.htm ), you'll
> see those values are only approximate. Based on my limited experience,
> the software values vary by +- 5% (or more) from what you'd see with
> a digital multi-meter.

Well, to be honest, this is my first encounter with this type of data, and
have only a marginal knowledge of what it's about.

> The motherboard derives the core voltage from power supply line -
> (+3.3V or from +5 V but I'm not sure which it is).
>
> Does AIDA32 report those values as low? Since you've got a nice, new Antec
430
> TruPower, I doublt they are.

AIDA32 doesn't give any 'value judgments' or reference ranges (that I've
found, anyway). It just reports the sensor values.

My other 'consultant' indicates some potential for altering this value via
BIOS jumpers or alterations, but I'm at the very outer limits of my
knowledge at this level of hardware, so really don't know how to interpret
this data, or know what it does or doesn't imply.

As you said, the PowerSupply shouldn't be a problem, and besides I got the
same error messages with both the old and new PSU's.

Would something bad in the motherboard also give a low CPU Core Voltage?
I'm just grasping at straws here.

Thanks

Don

[Firejack]

Hello.

Reading this topic is very interesting. It seems I'm having the same
problem. Although its only been affecting me for the last 4 days. 3 times
now my system has locked with a BSOD. I've checked all my settings, cables
etc. Run memtest86 to rule out memory errors. However I still get this
problem.
Tonight I ran dumpchk.exe and then pstat.exe and the results of all the 3
Minidumps share the similar reoccurring files DMusic.sys and kmixer.sys. I'm
beginning to think there is some issue with one or both of these but I can't
seem to track it down.

My OS is Windows XP Home with SP1
From startup I'm running NAV, Winamp, MSN Messenger and SETI@home.
System Spec: Athlon 2500+, Asus A7N8X Deluxe, 1 GB of Crucial PC2700,
Sapphire Radeon 9800 Pro latest drivers for everything but the 9800 Pro.

Cheers,

Andrew.


"Don Cohen" > wrote in message
...
> I desperately need help on the following problem which has stumped me (and
> everybody else) for the last several weeks. I apologize for the length of
> this post, but there's no other way to adequately document it.
>
> System: a 2 year old Gateway 700XL running XP Home. 1 gb RAM. ATI 8500 64
> mb VideoCard. 18.1" FPD 1810 LCD monitor using DVI connection. From the
> very beginning I have run ZoneAlarm, NAV 2002 and then 2003 when my
initial
> subscription ran out, scan with NAV weekly, install all Critical Updates
> when available.
>
> The system has run virtually flawlessly since I bought it with one fairly
> infrequent glitch that others with this system have experienced whose
cause
> has never been identified. Whether this is connected to the current more
> serious problem is unknown. Sporadically, under random circumstances, the
> monitor would go black for about 2 or 3 seconds, would then come back on,
> with nothing else occurring. This would happen once every few months,
> occasionally more frequently. I researched this on the newsgroups -
people
> updated drivers, replaced VideoCards, etc., but nothing seemed to
> consistently work for all involved. It seemed harmless, and so I just
lived
> with it.
>
> The problem now: the system would, out of nowhere, spontaneously reboot.
> This first occurred Dec. 24, 2003, when my daughter (26 years old and not
> doing anything more than surfing the web) was at the computer. She told
me
> about it, but I couldn't find anything. It didn't happen again for close
to
> a month, and over the past month it has become a recurring problem. It
may
> run a few minutes, a few hours, a few days, before the problem recurs.
>
> I have wondered if there was a relation to the 'black-out' glitch, as it
> would seemingly start the same: the monitor goes black, and then after a
> second or so instead of coming back on like it did in the past, it would
> reboot. Again, I don't know if this is connected or a coincidence.
>
> Trouble-shooting so far:
>
> I disabled the 'reboot automatically' checkbox in order to find out what
was
> going on. So now instead of rebooting, I received the following BSOD:
>
> A problem has been detected and windows has been shut down to prevent
damage
> to your computer
>
> "PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA
>
> ****STOP: 0x00000050 (0xB7874E5E, 0x00000000, 0xB7874E5E, 0x00000000)
>
> Beginning dump of physical memory
>
> Physical memory dump complete"
>
> 1.. I researched this on the web, and found that the most likely cause
of
> something like this was a hardware error, with RAM, hot CPU and Power
Supply
> the most likely culprits.
>
> 2.. I opened the case and verified that the fan was working fine. The
> computer would also do the reboot within minutes after being off all
night,
> seemingly making heat an unlikely cause.
>
> 3.. I downloaded memtest86.exe from the web, created a bootable CD with
> it, and ran it overnight, selecting All Tests and after 6 ½ hours, and
more
> than 2 full passes, no errors were detected.
>
> 4.. I replaced the originial 250W Power Supply with an Antec 430W
TruPower
> unit. The computer ran fine for almost 48 hours, and then rebooted.
>
> 5.. I brought it to a local computer repair shop, and they couldn't
> diagnose any specific hardware problem. Because we both suggested a
> VideoCard issue, we put in a new ATI Radeon 9200SE 128 mb card. This time
> it
> ran for about an hour before it again did the same thing. This time a
> slightly different 'b.s.o.d.' came up:
>
> 0x0000008E, 0xB7874E5F, 0xB6A2E728, 0x00000000 and another time:
>
> 0x0000008E, 0xB7874E60, 0xB6A2E728, 0x00000000
>
> 6.. I next went into Windows Recovery Console, and ran CHKDSK /R. It
> indicated that it found and fixed some problems. It now ran fine for
almost
> 72 hours and then the reboot again occurred.
>
> 7.. This time, I couldn't even boot back into the Recovery Console, even
> when I booted from the XP Home CD. It would get to the point when I would
> select the c:\winnt installation, and it would then reboot.
>
> 8.. In desperation, I brought the system to a Gateway Country Store.
They
> said they tested the motherboard, RAM, etc., and found no hardware
problems.
> They said they found and removed the Welchia worm. I was extremely
doubtful
> about this, given how I maintain my computer. But that's all they had to
> offer. I took it home, it ran for about 30 hours, and the same crash
> occurred, with the same original BSOD message (the original VideoCard had
> been reinstalled, with the driver updated by Gateway when they had the
> machine).
>
> 9.. I have also downloaded and run 'blastfix.exe' just in case something
> had somehow got through, but it was negative.
>
> 10.. I have installed Windows Support Tools, in order to use dumpchk.exe
> to look at the minidump files created when these events occurred, but I
was
> not able to identify anything useful in these files as far as suggesting
the
> source of this problem.
>
> 11.. These reboots have occurred from within a normal boot to Windows,
> from within Safe Mode, and even on a few occasions when just trying to
boot
> into Windows Recovery Console when booting from the XP CD.
>
> Gateway says the next step is to reformat the hard drive. I am willing
and
> able to do this, but I'm just not convinced this is a software issue,
> especially when considering point # 11 above. But I am also out of ideas
on
> what to do next.
>
> One final detail: the system came with a 120 GB Hard Drive. I used
> Partition Magic 8.0 to shrink the OS/Applications to an 11 gb partition,
and
> have the rest for Data Files (c:\ and h:\ respectively). This was done
> within the first few months of buying the computer. I use DriveImage 2002
> every few months to image the c:\ drive, and have ones from December 7,
2003
> and September 13, 2003 available. I have a second hard drive installed as
> well (d:\) where these files are located. I can restore one of these, but
> again I am not convinced this is a software issue.
>
> I suspect, but don't know, that this is a sporadic hardware issue -
> motherboard, CPU, RAM, I just don't know.
>
>
> So there it is. I have a computer that is essential useless as I never
know
> if it will run 5 minutes, 5 hours or 5 days before it crashes. Please let
> me know if you have any idea of where the problem is, or what I can do
next
> to pinpoint and fix it.
>
> Thanks for wading through all of this.
>
> Hopefully,
>
> ---
> Don Cohen
> Photo Website at:
> http://www.dlcphotography.net
>
>

[Alex Nichol]

Bob Dietz wrote:

>
>Don't know for sure, but I suspect that may not be good advice.
>Won't you end up with some memory used from both modules?
>
>My warped reasoning:
>I know Windows 9x loads into the upper portion of memory and suspect
>the same is true for Windows NT/2K/XP. Some hardware registers are mapped
>to into the bottom of memory.

No - the /Maxmem comes in before windows starts to load and confines it
to the amount of memory specified. So you can keep it into one module,
and make sure that is OK. You can of course remove a module physically
and try each one on its own. This idea is aimed at getting a quick
check that the problem is related to RAM - and hence either the second
module, or more probably (given the work the OP had done) the matching.
And there is no real way out if it *is* matching other than to buy a
pair of modules from the same source at the same time (or get by on one
only)


--
Alex Nichol MS MVP (Windows Technologies)
Bournemouth, U.K. (remove the D8 bit)

[cquirke (MVP Win9x)]

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:01:19 -0500, "Don Cohen"

>I ran memtest86 from 13.5 hours, 7 full passes - no errors. I will call the
>local computer repair store and see what hardware they have to specifically
>diagnose RAM or other hardware faults.

Generally, if MemTest86 is OK, then usually that's OK. I'd be
thinking flaky mobo chipset (e.g. the VIA data-eating UIDE bug),
possibly a power-starved AGP card, etc.

What motherboard and SVGA chipsets?



>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Consumer Asks: "What are you?"
Market Research: ' What would you like us to be? '
>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

[Don Cohen]

"cquirke (MVP Win9x)" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:01:19 -0500, "Don Cohen"
>
> >I ran memtest86 from 13.5 hours, 7 full passes - no errors. I will call
the
> >local computer repair store and see what hardware they have to
specifically
> >diagnose RAM or other hardware faults.
>
> Generally, if MemTest86 is OK, then usually that's OK. I'd be
> thinking flaky mobo chipset (e.g. the VIA data-eating UIDE bug),
> possibly a power-starved AGP card, etc.
>
> What motherboard and SVGA chipsets?

Thanks for the reply.

The motherboard is Intel D850MV, with Intel "Tehama" i850 chipset. I'm not
familiar with the "VIA data-eating UIDE bug."

An update on my trouble-shooting (see a second threat I started after this
one: 'CPU Core Voltage Too low -> Crash?':

I installed and ran "Motherboard Monitor" and the main abnormality that it
found is that the CPU Core Voltage, which according to Intel's website spec
sheet should be 1.500V started out at 1.49V, but as I used the computer
fluctuated down to 1.48V, 1.46V and even 1.45V. While this value bounced
around the other rail voltages were virtually rock solid (+2.5V rail at
2.46V, never varying, +3.3V rail at 3.29V with a rare, brief blip of 3.27V,
and the +5V rail at 5.02V with a very rare reading of 5.04V).

I would watch the CPU Core Voltage (VCore) as I used the system, and the
crashes would occur when the VCore value was at its lowest.

I removed all internal PCI Cards (except the VideoCard), disconnected my
secondary internal hard drive, and repeated the above testing. The results,
voltages and crashes were identical.

I then disconnected both internal optical drives, repeat the same testing,
with the same results.

So my conclusion at this point is that the defect is in the motherboard,
presumably the voltage regulators that govern the voltage to the CPU, or at
least something effecting this voltage. I will be getting in touch with
Gateway today to see about replacing the motherboard. I'm hoping/praying
that I'll finally get my otherwise stable system back.

Any other thoughts appreciated.

Don

[Don Cohen]

> >I would watch the CPU Core Voltage (VCore) as I used the system, and the
> >crashes would occur when the VCore value was at its lowest.
>
> Hm, that's Exhibit A. Prolly a mobo thing, given that it would be the
> mobo that kicks it down from one of the 12, 5 or 3.3V from PSU.
>
> >So my conclusion at this point is that the defect is in the motherboard,
> >presumably the voltage regulators that govern the voltage to the CPU, or
at
> >least something effecting this voltage.
>
> Yep - I think that's going to be it. Writing Gatway a really good log
> will help them rise to the challenge of doing the right thing here.

I presented my case (by phone) with the local Gateway Service Manager (who I
had previously spoken with after they checked out my system, and could find
no hardware defects). Sure was very accommodating, and offered to try and
get me a new motherboard at new cost. I had discussed with her that I felt
the current problem had the same underlying cause that was responsible for
the periodic 'blackouts' of my monitor that had occurred with this system
since I had it (and which others with the same system also experienced), and
on that basis, she agreed to get it covered under my original warrantee.

So I really couldn't ask for more from Gateway, and am quite pleased with
this service. I should have the motherboard by the end of the week, and
will probably put it in myself.

I've replaced power supplies, hard drives, videocards, upgraded BIOS, etc.,
but haven't yet replaced a motherboard. Any particular 'tricks' or common
stupid 'beginner' errors that I should take care to avoid in this regard?

Thanks.

Don

[Alex Nichol]

cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:

>>I ran memtest86 from 13.5 hours, 7 full passes - no errors. I will call the
>>local computer repair store and see what hardware they have to specifically
>>diagnose RAM or other hardware faults.
>
>Generally, if MemTest86 is OK, then usually that's OK. I'd be
>thinking flaky mobo chipset (e.g. the VIA data-eating UIDE bug),
>possibly a power-starved AGP card, etc.

The one point that memtest will not show up is where there are multiple
RAM modules that are not adequately compatible. XP is very fussy on
this - there are critical timing loops that will fail if they get moved
into an incompatible module

--
Alex Nichol MS MVP (Windows Technologies)
Bournemouth, U.K. (remove the D8 bit)

[Don Cohen]

Alex,

> The one point that memtest will not show up is where there are multiple
> RAM modules that are not adequately compatible. XP is very fussy on
> this - there are critical timing loops that will fail if they get moved
> into an incompatible module

In my particular case, per the other thread on this subject, the problem is
probably in the motherboard, with low and fluctuating voltage to the CPU.

But in follow-up to your statement above, for future reference:

This system was bought new from Gateway 2 years ago, with 2 pairs of 256 mb
modules, total 1024 mb. Assuming they were matched and compatible to begin
with, can they become less adequately compatible over time and then become a
source of problems?

Thanks.

Don

[Alex Nichol]

Don Cohen wrote:

>This system was bought new from Gateway 2 years ago, with 2 pairs of 256 mb
>modules, total 1024 mb. Assuming they were matched and compatible to begin
>with, can they become less adequately compatible over time and then become a
>source of problems?

No. I was just pointing out the exception to Chris's 'generally' if
memtest passes then things are OK


--
Alex Nichol MS MVP (Windows Technologies)
Bournemouth, U.K. (remove the D8 bit)

[Malke]

Don Cohen wrote:

> Thank you very much for the reply. I have checked out some, and will
> check out all, of your suggestions.
>
> Regarding the SP1 link: I updated many, many months before this
> problem started, so it's hard to relate it to that.
>
> Many of the links reference the video driver as a possible source.
> Tell me if I'm wrong, but these things would seem to eliminate this as
> the source: ---the same problem occurred with a physically different
> videocard with its new driver
> ---no new hardware, driver or videocard was installed for many, many
> months before this problem
> ---the reboot occurs even when I booted into Safe Mode, where
> presumably (tell me if I'm wrong) the ATI driver is not loaded
> ---the reboot occurred even when booting into the Windows Recovery
> Console via the XP Boot CD - again I would assume the ATI driver is
> not loaded in this situation as well.
>
> Is my thinking correct here?
>
> I will check the Event Viewer again, but I do recall looking at this
> previously, but don't recall it shedding any light on this.
>
> My biggest question is how and if we can determine if this is a
> hardware or software issue.

It sounds like hardware to me. Here are some generic hardware
troubleshooting steps:

1) open the computer and run it open, cleaning out all dust bunnies and
observing all fans (overheating will cause system freezing); 2) test
the RAM - I like Memtest86 from www.memtest86.com - let the test run
for an extended (like overnight) period of time - unless errors are
seen immediately; 3) test the hard drive with a diagnostic utility from
the mftr.; 4) the power supply may be going bad or be inadequate for
the devices you have in the system; 5) test the motherboard with
something like TuffTest from www.tufftest.com. Testing hardware
failures often involves swapping out suspected parts with known-good
parts. If you can't do the testing yourself and/or are uncomfortable
opening your computer, take the machine to a good local computer repair
shop (not a CompUSA or Best Buy type of store).

Malke
--
MS MVP - Windows Shell/User
Elephant Boy Computers
www.elephantboycomputers.com
"Don't Panic!"

[Don Cohen]

Hi Alex,

> Don Cohen wrote:
>
> >This system was bought new from Gateway 2 years ago, with 2 pairs of 256
mb
> >modules, total 1024 mb. Assuming they were matched and compatible to
begin
> >with, can they become less adequately compatible over time and then
become a
> >source of problems?
>
> No. I was just pointing out the exception to Chris's 'generally' if
> memtest passes then things are OK

Thanks for the clarification.

My new motherboard should be here tomorrow. Guess I'll know in a few days
how accurate all my trouble-shooting has been.

Best regards,

---
Don
Photo Website at:
http://www.dlcphotography.net

[cquirke (MVP Win9x)]

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:20:43 -0500, "Don Cohen"
> wrote:

>I've replaced power supplies, hard drives, videocards, upgraded BIOS, etc.,
>but haven't yet replaced a motherboard. Any particular 'tricks' or common
>stupid 'beginner' errors that I should take care to avoid in this regard?

Make sure you massage your CMOS settings into shapem, and do RAM diags
etc., before you let your Windows installation sniff the drive. Make
sure PCI cards go in the same slots as before. These steps should
minimize the PnP storm that may arise when Windows first boots.



>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Consumer Asks: "What are you?"
Market Research: ' What would you like us to be? '
>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

[tess tickles]

"Don Cohen" > wrote in message
...
> I desperately need help on the following problem which has stumped me (and
> everybody else) for the last several weeks. I apologize for the length of


i had similar problems years ago and found it happened from not being
plugged into a truely grounded outlet. I'm no puter expert, but you may want
to take a peek at your power cords and power comeing from the house/apt
best of luck

[Don Cohen]

Hi Tess,

> > I desperately need help on the following problem which has stumped me
(and
> > everybody else) for the last several weeks. I apologize for the length
of
>
>
> i had similar problems years ago and found it happened from not being
> plugged into a truely grounded outlet. I'm no puter expert, but you may
want
> to take a peek at your power cords and power comeing from the house/apt
> best of luck


Thanks for the reply. I have no doubt that outlet issues are one of the
many causes that can create problems like I've been having. In my case, the
problem occurred when I was plugged directly into the outlet, into the UPS
I'm using, etc. And nothing has changed here in the many years I've been
using this and other computers in this location.

In my case, I'm about 99% certain it's a faulty motherboard, creating low
and fluctuating voltage to the CPU core. A new one is en route even as I
type this, so I'll know in a few days if I'm right.

Best regards,

Don

[Don Cohen]

> >I've replaced power supplies, hard drives, videocards, upgraded BIOS,
etc.,
> >but haven't yet replaced a motherboard. Any particular 'tricks' or
common
> >stupid 'beginner' errors that I should take care to avoid in this regard?
>
> Make sure you massage your CMOS settings into shapem, and do RAM diags
> etc., before you let your Windows installation sniff the drive. Make
> sure PCI cards go in the same slots as before. These steps should
> minimize the PnP storm that may arise when Windows first boots.

Thanks. The RAM diags have already been run, so I should be ok there.
Theoretically this will be an identical motherboard, so everything else
should go smoothly, but I will check all jumpers, etc. to make sure. And
that's a good suggestion about the cards. Might not be necessary, but it
can't hurt.

Regards,

Don

[Don Cohen]

Hi Tess,

> > I desperately need help on the following problem which has stumped me
(and
> > everybody else) for the last several weeks. I apologize for the length
of
>
>
> i had similar problems years ago and found it happened from not being
> plugged into a truely grounded outlet. I'm no puter expert, but you may
want
> to take a peek at your power cords and power comeing from the house/apt
> best of luck


Thanks for the reply. I have no doubt that outlet issues are one of the
many causes that can create problems like I've been having. In my case, the
problem occurred when I was plugged directly into the outlet, into the UPS
I'm using, etc. And nothing has changed here in the many years I've been
using this and other computers in this location.

In my case, I'm about 99% certain it's a faulty motherboard, creating low
and fluctuating voltage to the CPU core. A new one is en route even as I
type this, so I'll know in a few days if I'm right.

Best regards,

Don

[Don Cohen]

> >I've replaced power supplies, hard drives, videocards, upgraded BIOS,
etc.,
> >but haven't yet replaced a motherboard. Any particular 'tricks' or
common
> >stupid 'beginner' errors that I should take care to avoid in this regard?
>
> Make sure you massage your CMOS settings into shapem, and do RAM diags
> etc., before you let your Windows installation sniff the drive. Make
> sure PCI cards go in the same slots as before. These steps should
> minimize the PnP storm that may arise when Windows first boots.

Thanks. The RAM diags have already been run, so I should be ok there.
Theoretically this will be an identical motherboard, so everything else
should go smoothly, but I will check all jumpers, etc. to make sure. And
that's a good suggestion about the cards. Might not be necessary, but it
can't hurt.

Regards,

Don

[Don Cohen]

Thank you very much for the reply. I have checked out some, and will check
out all, of your suggestions.

Regarding the SP1 link: I updated many, many months before this problem
started, so it's hard to relate it to that.

Many of the links reference the video driver as a possible source. Tell me
if I'm wrong, but these things would seem to eliminate this as the source:
---the same problem occurred with a physically different videocard with its
new driver
---no new hardware, driver or videocard was installed for many, many months
before this problem
---the reboot occurs even when I booted into Safe Mode, where presumably
(tell me if I'm wrong) the ATI driver is not loaded
---the reboot occurred even when booting into the Windows Recovery Console
via the XP Boot CD - again I would assume the ATI driver is not loaded in
this situation as well.

Is my thinking correct here?

I will check the Event Viewer again, but I do recall looking at this
previously, but don't recall it shedding any light on this.

My biggest question is how and if we can determine if this is a hardware or
software issue.

Thanks again.

Don


"CWatters" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Don Cohen" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > A problem has been detected and windows has been shut down to prevent
> damage
> > to your computer
> >
> > "PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA
> >
> > ****STOP: 0x00000050 (0xB7874E5E, 0x00000000, 0xB7874E5E, 0x00000000)
>
> Does it say anything else before the PAGE_FAULT on screen? (For example
> "win32k.sys had caused a PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA etc")
>
> I assume there is no more info in the System Event logs (use Event
Viewer)?
>
> A web search on "ATI 8500 PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA STOP: 0x00000050"
gets
> a few hits including....
> a) http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/6302/
> ..which seems to blame ati3d2ag.dll or possibly an IRQ conflict.
>
> b) http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/viewthread.php?tid=9689
>
> c) http://www.experts-exchange.com/Hardware/Q_20734080.html (scroll down)
> Perhaps it's worth updating the drviers for the ATI card from their web
> site if you haven't already done so.
>
> d) This site in German seems to point the finger at something called
> "PCAnywhere" if I got the translation right...
> http://www.mcseboard.de/archiv/28/2003/07/2/7833
>
> Quote: I experienced this same problem on my Dell Inspiron 8500. First I
> thought, that SP1 caused the blue screen, but, after I your posts (I speak
> English), translated and read, regarded I the programs, which I attached,
> and I found, that pcAnywhere 10.5 the problem caused. After I
deinstalliert
> pcAnywhere, the problem away. End Quote:
>
>
> I expect you have already seen these from MS....
> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;329293
>
> and the more general guides..
>
> http://aumha.org/win5/kbestop.php
>
>
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/reskit/prmd_stp_ccgm.asp
>
>
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/reskit/prmd_stp_hyzf.asp
>
> If you know what make/model of motherboard you have try a web search on..
>
> "<motherboard> PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA STOP: 0x00000050"
>
> Colin (not an MVP)
>
>
>

[cquirke (MVP Win9x)]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:33:57 +0000, Alex Nichol
>Don Cohen wrote:

>>This system was bought new from Gateway 2 years ago, with 2 pairs of 256 mb
>>modules, total 1024 mb. Assuming they were matched and compatible to begin
>>with, can they become less adequately compatible over time and then become a
>>source of problems?

>No. I was just pointing out the exception to Chris's 'generally' if
>memtest passes then things are OK

Have you seen cases where MemTest86 passes RAM that still fails and
needs to be swapped out on a compatibility basis?

I ask, because I've have expected MemTest86 to pick that up - not
because I dispute the inter-stick compatibility thing.

The only other RAM wildcard I'd expect to get by MemTest86 are
accesses by hardware other than the processor; AGP, DMA etc.



>------------ ----- --- -- - - - -
Drugs are usually safe. Inject? (Y/n)
>------------ ----- --- -- - - - -

[Alex Nichol]

cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:

>Have you seen cases where MemTest86 passes RAM that still fails and
>needs to be swapped out on a compatibility basis?
>
>I ask, because I've have expected MemTest86 to pick that up - not
>because I dispute the inter-stick compatibility thing.

I don't see enough bad RAM to tell. But the explanation given of the
compatibility matter, by Raymond Chen, was that there are critical
timing loops that get calibrated during either setup or boot - and if
these get applied to code that has then landed in the module of
different characteristics, they will fail. Which is a problem that no
software tester (or hardware one for that matter) will show up.
Particularly important that latencies match


--
Alex Nichol MS MVP (Windows Technologies)
Bournemouth, U.K. (remove the D8 bit)

[cquirke (MVP Win9x)]

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 12:02:58 +0000, Alex Nichol
>cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:

>>Have you seen cases where MemTest86 passes RAM that still fails and
>>needs to be swapped out on a compatibility basis?

>>I ask, because I've have expected MemTest86 to pick that up - not
>>because I dispute the inter-stick compatibility thing.

>I don't see enough bad RAM to tell. But the explanation given of the
>compatibility matter, by Raymond Chen, was that there are critical
>timing loops that get calibrated during either setup or boot - and if
>these get applied to code that has then landed in the module of
>different characteristics, they will fail. Which is a problem that no
>software tester (or hardware one for that matter) will show up.
>Particularly important that latencies match

Ah, fair enough - tho that also challenges something I'd ASSumed about
RAM; that the motherboard chipset applies the same timings to all
modules (else crossing from one to another would be interesting).

I'd understood timing capability variations as follows:
- mobo queries first DIMM it sees for timing info
- those timings applied to all DIMMs
- slower DIMMs in other banks then get flaky

Hence the advice to put the slowest DIMM in the first slot. That
advice may work in Chen's scenario, if the timing loop tests are done
in "low" RAM for some reason - but the random access nature of Win9x
and later OSs points away from this, perhaps.

My ASSumption stems from the days of "you shouldn't mix 8-bit and
32-bit SIMMs in the same system" and "you can't use SDRAM DIMMs and
EDO SIMMs at the same time" from 486 and Socket 7 days.

I'd love to pin this down - but am too lazy to research it :-)



>-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Running Windows-based av to kill active malware is like striking
a match to see if what you are standing in is water or petrol.
>-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

[Arthur Sludge]

I too have had several weeks of bewilderment concerning random
rebooting with no BSOD. I tried checking the memory,reseating the
cards etc. For the record, it has turned out to be the optical (wired)
mouse. I swapped it with the ball mouse on my other PC and they are
both now fine. Lesson learned? It can be absolutely anything.