HELP - XP SP2 Hangs on COLD BOOT (Sorry, LONG)

[Al Waschka]

So I updated my XPH machine to SP2. It seemed SLOOOOOW, particularly in
Windows Explorer when changing directories, but it basically worked for
several days as my file and print sharing server, however, I leave it on all
the time. I thought that maybe the slowness was a garbage collection
problem, so I shut the machine down and powered it back up. Gets through
POST fine to the windows loading progress screen and the scanner stops after
1-2 repetitions. It will only start in safe mode, and System Restore to a
point before SP2 install did not solve the problem.

After a lot of research on here and in the KB, discovered potential for a
outdated BIOS. I am running a P4 2.6G, 800 FSB, 512 L2 on an ASUS P4P800VM.
My BIOS was 1005. Asus says my CPU needs at least 1007, and that I must load
1008 before going any higher. So I loaded 1008 and the problem was solved,
i.e. I could load and run XP SP2 again. I had some printer problems (HP
Photosmart 1215 on DOT4 port) so I loaded 1016 (the latest non-beta) with the
recommended loader (AFUDOS 2.7). When starting up, I got a time not set
error. Setting time would not take. I went back and got the latest version
of the loader (AFUDOS 2.11) and reloaded 1016 BIOS. Clock now OK, system
will start again, but when I cycled power, it locked again.

I have an alternate boot configuration with a different HD. It is XPH, but
has not been "upgraded" with SP2. It loads fine except it can't find the
printer either. It tolerates cold boot.

The non-working configuration is on a new 200G hard drive that I bought the
first time I saw this problem, about 6 months ago. I found some bad sectors
on my 40G HD. I thought that was causing the problem so I bought the 200G
and it seemed to clear it up, but I hadn't loaded SP2. Now, without SP2, the
40G drive is working fine.

I can't seem to find any BIOS that will make this configuration run with
SP2. HELP?!?!?!
--
Thanks for any help,

Al

[Kerry Brown]

"Al Waschka" > wrote in message
...
> So I updated my XPH machine to SP2. It seemed SLOOOOOW, particularly in
> Windows Explorer when changing directories, but it basically worked for
> several days as my file and print sharing server, however, I leave it on
> all
> the time. I thought that maybe the slowness was a garbage collection
> problem, so I shut the machine down and powered it back up. Gets through
> POST fine to the windows loading progress screen and the scanner stops
> after
> 1-2 repetitions. It will only start in safe mode, and System Restore to a
> point before SP2 install did not solve the problem.
>
> After a lot of research on here and in the KB, discovered potential for a
> outdated BIOS. I am running a P4 2.6G, 800 FSB, 512 L2 on an ASUS
> P4P800VM.
> My BIOS was 1005. Asus says my CPU needs at least 1007, and that I must
> load
> 1008 before going any higher. So I loaded 1008 and the problem was
> solved,
> i.e. I could load and run XP SP2 again. I had some printer problems (HP
> Photosmart 1215 on DOT4 port) so I loaded 1016 (the latest non-beta) with
> the
> recommended loader (AFUDOS 2.7). When starting up, I got a time not set
> error. Setting time would not take. I went back and got the latest
> version
> of the loader (AFUDOS 2.11) and reloaded 1016 BIOS. Clock now OK, system
> will start again, but when I cycled power, it locked again.
>
> I have an alternate boot configuration with a different HD. It is XPH,
> but
> has not been "upgraded" with SP2. It loads fine except it can't find the
> printer either. It tolerates cold boot.
>
> The non-working configuration is on a new 200G hard drive that I bought
> the
> first time I saw this problem, about 6 months ago. I found some bad
> sectors
> on my 40G HD. I thought that was causing the problem so I bought the 200G
> and it seemed to clear it up, but I hadn't loaded SP2. Now, without SP2,
> the
> 40G drive is working fine.
>
> I can't seem to find any BIOS that will make this configuration run with
> SP2. HELP?!?!?!
> --
> Thanks for any help,
>
> Al
>

After flashing the BIOS did you do a manual reset of the CMOS? There is a
jumper on the motherboard to reset the CMOS. Sometimes this is needed. If
that doesn't solve the problem you may have a driver or some other software
that is not compatible with SP2. At this point I would download and install
all the latest drivers and program updates. If that still didn't help I
would try a repair install.

Kerry

[Al Waschka]

My defective SP2 installation is on Drive0
My working pre-SP2 installation is on Drive1
When 0 will not start, if I switch boot device in CMOS to 1, windows comes
up, as expected.
If I then switch back to 0, IT WORKS!
But then, if I cycle power, i.e. shutdown followed by startup, it hangs again.

[Kerry Brown]

"Al Waschka" > wrote in message
...
> My defective SP2 installation is on Drive0
> My working pre-SP2 installation is on Drive1
> When 0 will not start, if I switch boot device in CMOS to 1, windows comes
> up, as expected.
> If I then switch back to 0, IT WORKS!
> But then, if I cycle power, i.e. shutdown followed by startup, it hangs
> again.

That's nice, but it doesn't answer my question. :-) Did you reset the CMOS
via the jumper on the motherboard after flashing the BIOS? Failure to do
this can sometimes cause erratic results like you are describing. This may
not solve the problem but it eliminates one possible cause.

Kerry

[Al Waschka]

I don't have a "reset" jumper. What I do have is a "clear CMOS memory"
jumper that erases the date, time, and setup parameters.

I am hesitant to do that since I presume that I will then have to go in set
every configuration parameter and I don't have a clue what most of them
should be. Would it be the same to restore the defaults? Shouldn't a
reflash of the BIOS load the parameters from the defaults?

Thanks,

Al


"Kerry Brown" wrote:

> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
> ...
> > My defective SP2 installation is on Drive0
> > My working pre-SP2 installation is on Drive1
> > When 0 will not start, if I switch boot device in CMOS to 1, windows comes
> > up, as expected.
> > If I then switch back to 0, IT WORKS!
> > But then, if I cycle power, i.e. shutdown followed by startup, it hangs
> > again.
>
> That's nice, but it doesn't answer my question. :-) Did you reset the CMOS
> via the jumper on the motherboard after flashing the BIOS? Failure to do
> this can sometimes cause erratic results like you are describing. This may
> not solve the problem but it eliminates one possible cause.
>
> Kerry
>
>
>

[Al Waschka]

Oh,yeah....
Wouldn't the fact that loading from one partition "repairs" a load from a
different partition indicate that some driver or dll or whatever isn't
getting loaded into memory by the defective partition and survives a restart
but not a cold boot? And this is not a random occurrence. I had exactly the
same problem (symptoms-wise) a few months ago. It came back, exactly like
before, when I "upgraded" to SP2.

"Kerry Brown" wrote:

> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
> ...
> > My defective SP2 installation is on Drive0
> > My working pre-SP2 installation is on Drive1
> > When 0 will not start, if I switch boot device in CMOS to 1, windows comes
> > up, as expected.
> > If I then switch back to 0, IT WORKS!
> > But then, if I cycle power, i.e. shutdown followed by startup, it hangs
> > again.
>
> That's nice, but it doesn't answer my question. :-) Did you reset the CMOS
> via the jumper on the motherboard after flashing the BIOS? Failure to do
> this can sometimes cause erratic results like you are describing. This may
> not solve the problem but it eliminates one possible cause.
>
> Kerry
>
>
>

[Kerry Brown]

"Al Waschka" > wrote in message
...
>I don't have a "reset" jumper. What I do have is a "clear CMOS memory"
> jumper that erases the date, time, and setup parameters.
>
> I am hesitant to do that since I presume that I will then have to go in
> set
> every configuration parameter and I don't have a clue what most of them
> should be. Would it be the same to restore the defaults? Shouldn't a
> reflash of the BIOS load the parameters from the defaults?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Al
>
>

That is the correct jumper. Yes, you will have to reset all the parameters
including date and time. Restore to the defaults usually works fine.
Flashing the BIOS doesn't always reset everything. It is good practice to do
this after flashing the BIOS.

Kerry

> "Kerry Brown" wrote:
>
>> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > My defective SP2 installation is on Drive0
>> > My working pre-SP2 installation is on Drive1
>> > When 0 will not start, if I switch boot device in CMOS to 1, windows
>> > comes
>> > up, as expected.
>> > If I then switch back to 0, IT WORKS!
>> > But then, if I cycle power, i.e. shutdown followed by startup, it hangs
>> > again.
>>
>> That's nice, but it doesn't answer my question. :-) Did you reset the
>> CMOS
>> via the jumper on the motherboard after flashing the BIOS? Failure to do
>> this can sometimes cause erratic results like you are describing. This
>> may
>> not solve the problem but it eliminates one possible cause.
>>
>> Kerry
>>
>>
>>

[Kerry Brown]

"Al Waschka" > wrote in message
...
> Oh,yeah....
> Wouldn't the fact that loading from one partition "repairs" a load from a
> different partition indicate that some driver or dll or whatever isn't
> getting loaded into memory by the defective partition and survives a
> restart
> but not a cold boot? And this is not a random occurrence. I had exactly
> the
> same problem (symptoms-wise) a few months ago. It came back, exactly like
> before, when I "upgraded" to SP2.
>

To find out what is causing the problem you have to eliminate the simple,
obvious things first. Booting into a working install of Windows may
initialise some hardware that is not happening on the other install with
SP2. If the installs were exactly the same except for SP2 then I would
suspect SP2. The installs are not exactly the same. You mentioned that some
time elapsed, printers were installed etc. Troubleshooting is a time
consuming process with few if any shortcuts. Test for the problem after each
change. Start with the simplest steps first. 1) Reset the CMOS. Test for the
problem. 2) disconnect the printer that had problems and remove it's drivers
Test for the problem. 3) download and install the latest drivers for all
your other hardware. Test for the problem, and so on and so on until it's
solved. It may very well end up that something, hardware or software, is not
compatible with SP2. Until you eliminate all the other possibilities you'll
never know.

Kerry



> "Kerry Brown" wrote:
>
>> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > My defective SP2 installation is on Drive0
>> > My working pre-SP2 installation is on Drive1
>> > When 0 will not start, if I switch boot device in CMOS to 1, windows
>> > comes
>> > up, as expected.
>> > If I then switch back to 0, IT WORKS!
>> > But then, if I cycle power, i.e. shutdown followed by startup, it hangs
>> > again.
>>
>> That's nice, but it doesn't answer my question. :-) Did you reset the
>> CMOS
>> via the jumper on the motherboard after flashing the BIOS? Failure to do
>> this can sometimes cause erratic results like you are describing. This
>> may
>> not solve the problem but it eliminates one possible cause.
>>
>> Kerry
>>
>>
>>

[Al Waschka]

OK, I cleared the CMOS memory, reloaded defaults, and set the date/time.
Same problem.

"Rant mode ON"

While I understand your philosophical comments about troubleshooting (I am
an MSEE with 35 years in the design of hardware, firmware, software and
systems), that is only one perspective. In my case, it was the addition of
SP2 that caused the original problem. I had a working configuration with all
hardware supported and everything was fine until I installed SP2. All this
other stuff (printers not working, etc.) was fallout from installing SP2 or
from changing the BIOS to try to get compatible with SP2. And don't forget
that I had EXACTLY the same problem with the older currently working
configuration several months back. When I upgraded it to SP2, it started
halting during startup exactly like the new configuration does now. I bought
a new HD, loaded it up, moved over to it and that is the configuration that
is not working now, again after installing SP2. I rebuilt the old HD up to
just before SP2, turned off updates and now it is running. I have no doubt
that if I installed SP2, it would also crash.

As to your comment that I may have hardware or software that is not
compatible with SP2, I can't imagine that it should be necessary to go back
to a clean pre-SPx boot configuration, add SP-x, then reload every piece of
software and hardware (until the system stops working) to find non-compatible
hardware and software everytime MS comes out with a SP. They should be
testing SPs to determine what the the SP confoguration doesn't support that
the pre-SP configuration did, and they should notify users so that they can
make an intelligent decision as to whether or not to install a SP. I guess I
am going to have to reload windows, upgrade to just before SP2 and then strop
installing upgrades. Thats a crappy way to run a business.

I just got a phone call from my daughter. Her computer (HP Notebook) had
been in for repair. She reloaded it and it was working fine. She started
"upgrading" it with MS updates, and after SP2 somehow her WLAN was indicating
low signal and couldn't stay logged on. She wiped it slick again and
reloaded to just before SP2 and everything is fine again.

I rest my case.....

"RANT mode off"

Regardless, Kerry, thanks for trying to help. I appreciate your efforts,
but I'm becoming convinced that this is an inherent problem with SP2 that I
will not be able to fix.

Al


"Kerry Brown" wrote:

> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Oh,yeah....
> > Wouldn't the fact that loading from one partition "repairs" a load from a
> > different partition indicate that some driver or dll or whatever isn't
> > getting loaded into memory by the defective partition and survives a
> > restart
> > but not a cold boot? And this is not a random occurrence. I had exactly
> > the
> > same problem (symptoms-wise) a few months ago. It came back, exactly like
> > before, when I "upgraded" to SP2.
> >
>
> To find out what is causing the problem you have to eliminate the simple,
> obvious things first. Booting into a working install of Windows may
> initialise some hardware that is not happening on the other install with
> SP2. If the installs were exactly the same except for SP2 then I would
> suspect SP2. The installs are not exactly the same. You mentioned that some
> time elapsed, printers were installed etc. Troubleshooting is a time
> consuming process with few if any shortcuts. Test for the problem after each
> change. Start with the simplest steps first. 1) Reset the CMOS. Test for the
> problem. 2) disconnect the printer that had problems and remove it's drivers
> Test for the problem. 3) download and install the latest drivers for all
> your other hardware. Test for the problem, and so on and so on until it's
> solved. It may very well end up that something, hardware or software, is not
> compatible with SP2. Until you eliminate all the other possibilities you'll
> never know.
>
> Kerry
>
>
>
> > "Kerry Brown" wrote:
> >
> >> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > My defective SP2 installation is on Drive0
> >> > My working pre-SP2 installation is on Drive1
> >> > When 0 will not start, if I switch boot device in CMOS to 1, windows
> >> > comes
> >> > up, as expected.
> >> > If I then switch back to 0, IT WORKS!
> >> > But then, if I cycle power, i.e. shutdown followed by startup, it hangs
> >> > again.
> >>
> >> That's nice, but it doesn't answer my question. :-) Did you reset the
> >> CMOS
> >> via the jumper on the motherboard after flashing the BIOS? Failure to do
> >> this can sometimes cause erratic results like you are describing. This
> >> may
> >> not solve the problem but it eliminates one possible cause.
> >>
> >> Kerry
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>

[Kerry Brown]

"Al Waschka" > wrote in message
...
> OK, I cleared the CMOS memory, reloaded defaults, and set the date/time.
> Same problem.
>
> "Rant mode ON"
>
> While I understand your philosophical comments about troubleshooting (I am
> an MSEE with 35 years in the design of hardware, firmware, software and
> systems), that is only one perspective. In my case, it was the addition
> of
> SP2 that caused the original problem. I had a working configuration with
> all
> hardware supported and everything was fine until I installed SP2. All
> this
> other stuff (printers not working, etc.) was fallout from installing SP2
> or
> from changing the BIOS to try to get compatible with SP2. And don't
> forget
> that I had EXACTLY the same problem with the older currently working
> configuration several months back. When I upgraded it to SP2, it started
> halting during startup exactly like the new configuration does now. I
> bought
> a new HD, loaded it up, moved over to it and that is the configuration
> that
> is not working now, again after installing SP2. I rebuilt the old HD up
> to
> just before SP2, turned off updates and now it is running. I have no
> doubt
> that if I installed SP2, it would also crash.
>
> As to your comment that I may have hardware or software that is not
> compatible with SP2, I can't imagine that it should be necessary to go
> back
> to a clean pre-SPx boot configuration, add SP-x, then reload every piece
> of
> software and hardware (until the system stops working) to find
> non-compatible
> hardware and software everytime MS comes out with a SP. They should be
> testing SPs to determine what the the SP confoguration doesn't support
> that
> the pre-SP configuration did, and they should notify users so that they
> can
> make an intelligent decision as to whether or not to install a SP. I
> guess I
> am going to have to reload windows, upgrade to just before SP2 and then
> strop
> installing upgrades. Thats a crappy way to run a business.
>
> I just got a phone call from my daughter. Her computer (HP Notebook) had
> been in for repair. She reloaded it and it was working fine. She started
> "upgrading" it with MS updates, and after SP2 somehow her WLAN was
> indicating
> low signal and couldn't stay logged on. She wiped it slick again and
> reloaded to just before SP2 and everything is fine again.
>
> I rest my case.....
>
> "RANT mode off"
>
> Regardless, Kerry, thanks for trying to help. I appreciate your efforts,
> but I'm becoming convinced that this is an inherent problem with SP2 that
> I
> will not be able to fix.
>
> Al
>

The HP laptop problem has a known fix that's quite easy to find. I'm
suprised the repair shop didn't know about it. Do a google search for HP XP
SP2 WLAN.

There is no possible way Microsoft could test every possible combination of
hardware and software. They have a section of their web site dedicated to
installing SP2 with many helpful troubleshooting tips.

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?&pr=windowsxpsp2

I have done several hundred installs of SP2 and only seen one computer that
was not compatible. I have seen a few USB devices that aren't compatible. I
have seen lot's of software including software from Microsoft that is not
compatible. If you don't figure out what is causing the problem you are
stuck with your computer as it is now. You may be locked out of future
updates as they may require SP2. That decision is up to you. Personally I
think the security improvements are worth the effort to get it working.

Rant mode on (it's a rant not a flame)

With your experience you must know the logistics involved with testing such
a varied and large installed base. You also must have developed a methodolgy
of testing when something goes wrong. It is common for upgrades to cause
problems with previously working systems whether the upgrade is hardware,
firmware or software. An upgrade changes things by it's very nature. What
you are saying is that once you purchase a computer no one should ever come
out with something that won't work on it. That is unrealistic. And yes it
sometimes comes down to a clean install of Windows, then SP2, then drivers
and programs to find the incompatibilty. That is a last resort. I suggested
a couple of other steps first. In any case your argument about doing a clean
install, then rebuilding the system, then installing SP2 is clearly
backwards and will only get you to the same place that doesn't work every
time.

Rant mode off

Like I said earlier I believe the increased security of SP2 is worth the
effort but it's your computer. I have several paying customers who think
likewise so you are not alone. They are of the opinion that they upgrade
their systems every few years anyway so the next upgrade will solve the
problem. For them the cost of troubleshooting the current working systems
isn't worth it. As long as you have a good firewall in place and practice
safe computing SP2 isn't essential.

Kerry

>
> "Kerry Brown" wrote:
>
>> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Oh,yeah....
>> > Wouldn't the fact that loading from one partition "repairs" a load from
>> > a
>> > different partition indicate that some driver or dll or whatever isn't
>> > getting loaded into memory by the defective partition and survives a
>> > restart
>> > but not a cold boot? And this is not a random occurrence. I had
>> > exactly
>> > the
>> > same problem (symptoms-wise) a few months ago. It came back, exactly
>> > like
>> > before, when I "upgraded" to SP2.
>> >
>>
>> To find out what is causing the problem you have to eliminate the simple,
>> obvious things first. Booting into a working install of Windows may
>> initialise some hardware that is not happening on the other install with
>> SP2. If the installs were exactly the same except for SP2 then I would
>> suspect SP2. The installs are not exactly the same. You mentioned that
>> some
>> time elapsed, printers were installed etc. Troubleshooting is a time
>> consuming process with few if any shortcuts. Test for the problem after
>> each
>> change. Start with the simplest steps first. 1) Reset the CMOS. Test for
>> the
>> problem. 2) disconnect the printer that had problems and remove it's
>> drivers
>> Test for the problem. 3) download and install the latest drivers for all
>> your other hardware. Test for the problem, and so on and so on until it's
>> solved. It may very well end up that something, hardware or software, is
>> not
>> compatible with SP2. Until you eliminate all the other possibilities
>> you'll
>> never know.
>>
>> Kerry
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Kerry Brown" wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > My defective SP2 installation is on Drive0
>> >> > My working pre-SP2 installation is on Drive1
>> >> > When 0 will not start, if I switch boot device in CMOS to 1, windows
>> >> > comes
>> >> > up, as expected.
>> >> > If I then switch back to 0, IT WORKS!
>> >> > But then, if I cycle power, i.e. shutdown followed by startup, it
>> >> > hangs
>> >> > again.
>> >>
>> >> That's nice, but it doesn't answer my question. :-) Did you reset the
>> >> CMOS
>> >> via the jumper on the motherboard after flashing the BIOS? Failure to
>> >> do
>> >> this can sometimes cause erratic results like you are describing. This
>> >> may
>> >> not solve the problem but it eliminates one possible cause.
>> >>
>> >> Kerry
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>

[Al Waschka]

We obviously have different perspectives. I am a Microsoft customer, and you
are on the vendor/supplier side of the line. I didn't say that no one should
come out with something that isn't compatible with my computer, only that
Microsoft should not put out service packs (and hypoe them as being next to
essential) without letting people know what the compatibility issues are.
Yeah, its hard, but they make a pile of money off of people like me who buy
their products (and sell them in products to my customers).


That aside, I appreciate your assistance and I have now tried almost
everything you suggested. Thanks for the tip on my daughter's machine, by
the way, I will pass that on to her. I will make sure I have all the latest
drivers for the motherboard. That is really all there is. It is an all on
board solution so there are no video cards, etc. I have the latest printer
driver and I can't get it to load. The printer is an HP Photosmart 1215. It
tries to load on a DOT4 port, but the install can't find the printer. I
suspect that the SP2 problem is related to the loss of connectivity with the
DOT4 port but I haven't found anything on MS.com KB, yet.

Kerry, again, thanks - It is because of people like you who will help people
like me (difficult though we may be) that Microsoft can continue to sell the
products they develop.

Al


"Kerry Brown" wrote:

> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
> ...
> > OK, I cleared the CMOS memory, reloaded defaults, and set the date/time.
> > Same problem.
> >
> > "Rant mode ON"
> >
> > While I understand your philosophical comments about troubleshooting (I am
> > an MSEE with 35 years in the design of hardware, firmware, software and
> > systems), that is only one perspective. In my case, it was the addition
> > of
> > SP2 that caused the original problem. I had a working configuration with
> > all
> > hardware supported and everything was fine until I installed SP2. All
> > this
> > other stuff (printers not working, etc.) was fallout from installing SP2
> > or
> > from changing the BIOS to try to get compatible with SP2. And don't
> > forget
> > that I had EXACTLY the same problem with the older currently working
> > configuration several months back. When I upgraded it to SP2, it started
> > halting during startup exactly like the new configuration does now. I
> > bought
> > a new HD, loaded it up, moved over to it and that is the configuration
> > that
> > is not working now, again after installing SP2. I rebuilt the old HD up
> > to
> > just before SP2, turned off updates and now it is running. I have no
> > doubt
> > that if I installed SP2, it would also crash.
> >
> > As to your comment that I may have hardware or software that is not
> > compatible with SP2, I can't imagine that it should be necessary to go
> > back
> > to a clean pre-SPx boot configuration, add SP-x, then reload every piece
> > of
> > software and hardware (until the system stops working) to find
> > non-compatible
> > hardware and software everytime MS comes out with a SP. They should be
> > testing SPs to determine what the the SP confoguration doesn't support
> > that
> > the pre-SP configuration did, and they should notify users so that they
> > can
> > make an intelligent decision as to whether or not to install a SP. I
> > guess I
> > am going to have to reload windows, upgrade to just before SP2 and then
> > strop
> > installing upgrades. Thats a crappy way to run a business.
> >
> > I just got a phone call from my daughter. Her computer (HP Notebook) had
> > been in for repair. She reloaded it and it was working fine. She started
> > "upgrading" it with MS updates, and after SP2 somehow her WLAN was
> > indicating
> > low signal and couldn't stay logged on. She wiped it slick again and
> > reloaded to just before SP2 and everything is fine again.
> >
> > I rest my case.....
> >
> > "RANT mode off"
> >
> > Regardless, Kerry, thanks for trying to help. I appreciate your efforts,
> > but I'm becoming convinced that this is an inherent problem with SP2 that
> > I
> > will not be able to fix.
> >
> > Al
> >
>
> The HP laptop problem has a known fix that's quite easy to find. I'm
> suprised the repair shop didn't know about it. Do a google search for HP XP
> SP2 WLAN.
>
> There is no possible way Microsoft could test every possible combination of
> hardware and software. They have a section of their web site dedicated to
> installing SP2 with many helpful troubleshooting tips.
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?&pr=windowsxpsp2
>
> I have done several hundred installs of SP2 and only seen one computer that
> was not compatible. I have seen a few USB devices that aren't compatible. I
> have seen lot's of software including software from Microsoft that is not
> compatible. If you don't figure out what is causing the problem you are
> stuck with your computer as it is now. You may be locked out of future
> updates as they may require SP2. That decision is up to you. Personally I
> think the security improvements are worth the effort to get it working.
>
> Rant mode on (it's a rant not a flame)
>
> With your experience you must know the logistics involved with testing such
> a varied and large installed base. You also must have developed a methodolgy
> of testing when something goes wrong. It is common for upgrades to cause
> problems with previously working systems whether the upgrade is hardware,
> firmware or software. An upgrade changes things by it's very nature. What
> you are saying is that once you purchase a computer no one should ever come
> out with something that won't work on it. That is unrealistic. And yes it
> sometimes comes down to a clean install of Windows, then SP2, then drivers
> and programs to find the incompatibilty. That is a last resort. I suggested
> a couple of other steps first. In any case your argument about doing a clean
> install, then rebuilding the system, then installing SP2 is clearly
> backwards and will only get you to the same place that doesn't work every
> time.
>
> Rant mode off
>
> Like I said earlier I believe the increased security of SP2 is worth the
> effort but it's your computer. I have several paying customers who think
> likewise so you are not alone. They are of the opinion that they upgrade
> their systems every few years anyway so the next upgrade will solve the
> problem. For them the cost of troubleshooting the current working systems
> isn't worth it. As long as you have a good firewall in place and practice
> safe computing SP2 isn't essential.
>
> Kerry
>
> >
> > "Kerry Brown" wrote:
> >
> >> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Oh,yeah....
> >> > Wouldn't the fact that loading from one partition "repairs" a load from
> >> > a
> >> > different partition indicate that some driver or dll or whatever isn't
> >> > getting loaded into memory by the defective partition and survives a
> >> > restart
> >> > but not a cold boot? And this is not a random occurrence. I had
> >> > exactly
> >> > the
> >> > same problem (symptoms-wise) a few months ago. It came back, exactly
> >> > like
> >> > before, when I "upgraded" to SP2.
> >> >
> >>
> >> To find out what is causing the problem you have to eliminate the simple,
> >> obvious things first. Booting into a working install of Windows may
> >> initialise some hardware that is not happening on the other install with
> >> SP2. If the installs were exactly the same except for SP2 then I would
> >> suspect SP2. The installs are not exactly the same. You mentioned that
> >> some
> >> time elapsed, printers were installed etc. Troubleshooting is a time
> >> consuming process with few if any shortcuts. Test for the problem after
> >> each
> >> change. Start with the simplest steps first. 1) Reset the CMOS. Test for
> >> the
> >> problem. 2) disconnect the printer that had problems and remove it's
> >> drivers
> >> Test for the problem. 3) download and install the latest drivers for all
> >> your other hardware. Test for the problem, and so on and so on until it's
> >> solved. It may very well end up that something, hardware or software, is
> >> not
> >> compatible with SP2. Until you eliminate all the other possibilities
> >> you'll
> >> never know.
> >>
> >> Kerry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > "Kerry Brown" wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> > My defective SP2 installation is on Drive0
> >> >> > My working pre-SP2 installation is on Drive1
> >> >> > When 0 will not start, if I switch boot device in CMOS to 1, windows
> >> >> > comes
> >> >> > up, as expected.
> >> >> > If I then switch back to 0, IT WORKS!
> >> >> > But then, if I cycle power, i.e. shutdown followed by startup, it
> >> >> > hangs
> >> >> > again.
> >> >>
> >> >> That's nice, but it doesn't answer my question. :-) Did you reset the
> >> >> CMOS
> >> >> via the jumper on the motherboard after flashing the BIOS? Failure to
> >> >> do
> >> >> this can sometimes cause erratic results like you are describing. This
> >> >> may
> >> >> not solve the problem but it eliminates one possible cause.
> >> >>
> >> >> Kerry
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>

[Shooter]

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 14:10:01 -0700, "Al Waschka"
> wrote:

>Microsoft should not put out service packs (and hypoe them as being next to
>essential) without letting people know what the compatibility issues are.

That same exact observation has been made before on here many times
and each time that observation generated posts defending MS as if MS
needed defending... Hummmmm. It also generated the usual expected
venom from one specific MVP of which always attacks anyone that has
the audacity to question anything MS does.

To those of common sense and who are not mindless clones, your are
right in your observation my friend.

Regards,

[Tom Pepper Willett]

We waited for a couple of months to install SP2 in our corporate
environment. At least 50 pcs. When we did so, not one problem has
surfaced.

Tom
:
| >
| > >Microsoft should not put out service packs (and hypoe them as being
next to
| > >essential) without letting people know what the compatibility issues
are.
| >
| > That same exact observation has been made before on here many times
| > and each time that observation generated posts defending MS as if MS
| > needed defending... Hummmmm. It also generated the usual expected
| > venom from one specific MVP of which always attacks anyone that has
| > the audacity to question anything MS does.
| >
| > To those of common sense and who are not mindless clones, your are
| > right in your observation my friend.
|
| Common sense would dictate testing and compatibility checking BEFORE
| installing any updates - in fact, if you check, MS clearly recommends
| that you check and test before you install any update.
|
| What's really amazing is that people defending people that don't
| test/check before installing updates and then have the audacity to
| complain about the update.
|
| --
| --
|
| remove 999 in order to email me

[Kerry Brown]

"Al Waschka" > wrote in message
...
> We obviously have different perspectives. I am a Microsoft customer, and
> you
> are on the vendor/supplier side of the line. I didn't say that no one
> should
> come out with something that isn't compatible with my computer, only that
> Microsoft should not put out service packs (and hypoe them as being next
> to
> essential) without letting people know what the compatibility issues are.
> Yeah, its hard, but they make a pile of money off of people like me who
> buy
> their products (and sell them in products to my customers).
>
>
> That aside, I appreciate your assistance and I have now tried almost
> everything you suggested. Thanks for the tip on my daughter's machine, by
> the way, I will pass that on to her. I will make sure I have all the
> latest
> drivers for the motherboard. That is really all there is. It is an all
> on
> board solution so there are no video cards, etc. I have the latest
> printer
> driver and I can't get it to load. The printer is an HP Photosmart 1215.
> It
> tries to load on a DOT4 port, but the install can't find the printer. I
> suspect that the SP2 problem is related to the loss of connectivity with
> the
> DOT4 port but I haven't found anything on MS.com KB, yet.
>
> Kerry, again, thanks - It is because of people like you who will help
> people
> like me (difficult though we may be) that Microsoft can continue to sell
> the
> products they develop.
>
> Al
>

Your welcome.

I have had lots of issues with HP USB printers on all versions of Windows. I
have actually quit selling them because of support issues. It was costing me
too much money reinstalling them when customers botched the install. They
are very finicky. Usually you have to uninstall everything to do with the
printer then hunt down all the files and registry entries that the uninstall
doesn't delete. HP's uninstall programs are almost as useless as Norton's.
Once it's completely clean then install it exactly according to their
directions. One step out of order and it usually doesn't work and you have
to do the whole uninstall again. It's particularly important to figure out
exactly where in the process that the printer needs to be plugged into the
computer's USB port. They are not consistent. With some printers it's part
way through the install with other's it's after the install.

Kerry

>
> "Kerry Brown" wrote:
>
>> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > OK, I cleared the CMOS memory, reloaded defaults, and set the
>> > date/time.
>> > Same problem.
>> >
>> > "Rant mode ON"
>> >
>> > While I understand your philosophical comments about troubleshooting (I
>> > am
>> > an MSEE with 35 years in the design of hardware, firmware, software and
>> > systems), that is only one perspective. In my case, it was the
>> > addition
>> > of
>> > SP2 that caused the original problem. I had a working configuration
>> > with
>> > all
>> > hardware supported and everything was fine until I installed SP2. All
>> > this
>> > other stuff (printers not working, etc.) was fallout from installing
>> > SP2
>> > or
>> > from changing the BIOS to try to get compatible with SP2. And don't
>> > forget
>> > that I had EXACTLY the same problem with the older currently working
>> > configuration several months back. When I upgraded it to SP2, it
>> > started
>> > halting during startup exactly like the new configuration does now. I
>> > bought
>> > a new HD, loaded it up, moved over to it and that is the configuration
>> > that
>> > is not working now, again after installing SP2. I rebuilt the old HD
>> > up
>> > to
>> > just before SP2, turned off updates and now it is running. I have no
>> > doubt
>> > that if I installed SP2, it would also crash.
>> >
>> > As to your comment that I may have hardware or software that is not
>> > compatible with SP2, I can't imagine that it should be necessary to go
>> > back
>> > to a clean pre-SPx boot configuration, add SP-x, then reload every
>> > piece
>> > of
>> > software and hardware (until the system stops working) to find
>> > non-compatible
>> > hardware and software everytime MS comes out with a SP. They should be
>> > testing SPs to determine what the the SP confoguration doesn't support
>> > that
>> > the pre-SP configuration did, and they should notify users so that they
>> > can
>> > make an intelligent decision as to whether or not to install a SP. I
>> > guess I
>> > am going to have to reload windows, upgrade to just before SP2 and then
>> > strop
>> > installing upgrades. Thats a crappy way to run a business.
>> >
>> > I just got a phone call from my daughter. Her computer (HP Notebook)
>> > had
>> > been in for repair. She reloaded it and it was working fine. She
>> > started
>> > "upgrading" it with MS updates, and after SP2 somehow her WLAN was
>> > indicating
>> > low signal and couldn't stay logged on. She wiped it slick again and
>> > reloaded to just before SP2 and everything is fine again.
>> >
>> > I rest my case.....
>> >
>> > "RANT mode off"
>> >
>> > Regardless, Kerry, thanks for trying to help. I appreciate your
>> > efforts,
>> > but I'm becoming convinced that this is an inherent problem with SP2
>> > that
>> > I
>> > will not be able to fix.
>> >
>> > Al
>> >
>>
>> The HP laptop problem has a known fix that's quite easy to find. I'm
>> suprised the repair shop didn't know about it. Do a google search for HP
>> XP
>> SP2 WLAN.
>>
>> There is no possible way Microsoft could test every possible combination
>> of
>> hardware and software. They have a section of their web site dedicated to
>> installing SP2 with many helpful troubleshooting tips.
>>
>> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?&pr=windowsxpsp2
>>
>> I have done several hundred installs of SP2 and only seen one computer
>> that
>> was not compatible. I have seen a few USB devices that aren't compatible.
>> I
>> have seen lot's of software including software from Microsoft that is not
>> compatible. If you don't figure out what is causing the problem you are
>> stuck with your computer as it is now. You may be locked out of future
>> updates as they may require SP2. That decision is up to you. Personally I
>> think the security improvements are worth the effort to get it working.
>>
>> Rant mode on (it's a rant not a flame)
>>
>> With your experience you must know the logistics involved with testing
>> such
>> a varied and large installed base. You also must have developed a
>> methodolgy
>> of testing when something goes wrong. It is common for upgrades to cause
>> problems with previously working systems whether the upgrade is hardware,
>> firmware or software. An upgrade changes things by it's very nature. What
>> you are saying is that once you purchase a computer no one should ever
>> come
>> out with something that won't work on it. That is unrealistic. And yes it
>> sometimes comes down to a clean install of Windows, then SP2, then
>> drivers
>> and programs to find the incompatibilty. That is a last resort. I
>> suggested
>> a couple of other steps first. In any case your argument about doing a
>> clean
>> install, then rebuilding the system, then installing SP2 is clearly
>> backwards and will only get you to the same place that doesn't work every
>> time.
>>
>> Rant mode off
>>
>> Like I said earlier I believe the increased security of SP2 is worth the
>> effort but it's your computer. I have several paying customers who think
>> likewise so you are not alone. They are of the opinion that they upgrade
>> their systems every few years anyway so the next upgrade will solve the
>> problem. For them the cost of troubleshooting the current working systems
>> isn't worth it. As long as you have a good firewall in place and practice
>> safe computing SP2 isn't essential.
>>
>> Kerry
>>
>> >
>> > "Kerry Brown" wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > Oh,yeah....
>> >> > Wouldn't the fact that loading from one partition "repairs" a load
>> >> > from
>> >> > a
>> >> > different partition indicate that some driver or dll or whatever
>> >> > isn't
>> >> > getting loaded into memory by the defective partition and survives a
>> >> > restart
>> >> > but not a cold boot? And this is not a random occurrence. I had
>> >> > exactly
>> >> > the
>> >> > same problem (symptoms-wise) a few months ago. It came back,
>> >> > exactly
>> >> > like
>> >> > before, when I "upgraded" to SP2.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> To find out what is causing the problem you have to eliminate the
>> >> simple,
>> >> obvious things first. Booting into a working install of Windows may
>> >> initialise some hardware that is not happening on the other install
>> >> with
>> >> SP2. If the installs were exactly the same except for SP2 then I would
>> >> suspect SP2. The installs are not exactly the same. You mentioned that
>> >> some
>> >> time elapsed, printers were installed etc. Troubleshooting is a time
>> >> consuming process with few if any shortcuts. Test for the problem
>> >> after
>> >> each
>> >> change. Start with the simplest steps first. 1) Reset the CMOS. Test
>> >> for
>> >> the
>> >> problem. 2) disconnect the printer that had problems and remove it's
>> >> drivers
>> >> Test for the problem. 3) download and install the latest drivers for
>> >> all
>> >> your other hardware. Test for the problem, and so on and so on until
>> >> it's
>> >> solved. It may very well end up that something, hardware or software,
>> >> is
>> >> not
>> >> compatible with SP2. Until you eliminate all the other possibilities
>> >> you'll
>> >> never know.
>> >>
>> >> Kerry
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > "Kerry Brown" wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
>> >> >> ...
>> >> >> > My defective SP2 installation is on Drive0
>> >> >> > My working pre-SP2 installation is on Drive1
>> >> >> > When 0 will not start, if I switch boot device in CMOS to 1,
>> >> >> > windows
>> >> >> > comes
>> >> >> > up, as expected.
>> >> >> > If I then switch back to 0, IT WORKS!
>> >> >> > But then, if I cycle power, i.e. shutdown followed by startup, it
>> >> >> > hangs
>> >> >> > again.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That's nice, but it doesn't answer my question. :-) Did you reset
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> CMOS
>> >> >> via the jumper on the motherboard after flashing the BIOS? Failure
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> do
>> >> >> this can sometimes cause erratic results like you are describing.
>> >> >> This
>> >> >> may
>> >> >> not solve the problem but it eliminates one possible cause.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Kerry
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>

[Kerry Brown]

"Shooter" <fhasfdjh@AlkjdaF@com> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 14:10:01 -0700, "Al Waschka"
> > wrote:
>
>>Microsoft should not put out service packs (and hypoe them as being next
>>to
>>essential) without letting people know what the compatibility issues are.
>
> That same exact observation has been made before on here many times
> and each time that observation generated posts defending MS as if MS
> needed defending... Hummmmm. It also generated the usual expected
> venom from one specific MVP of which always attacks anyone that has
> the audacity to question anything MS does.
>
> To those of common sense and who are not mindless clones, your are
> right in your observation my friend.
>
> Regards,


Am I missing something? I didn't see any posts from any MVP's in this
thread.

Kerry

[Don Taylor From:]

"Tom Pepper Willett" > writes:
>We waited for a couple of months to install SP2 in our corporate
>environment. At least 50 pcs. When we did so, not one problem has
>surfaced.

Just curious, do you think that the wait somehow changed something
so that it worked?

Lots of people have sworn they had no problems when they did this
with their own gazillions of computers. Lots of people have found
problems when they did install this. Individual reports don't seem
to have resulted in any new information really being discovered.

>Tom
>| > >Microsoft should not put out service packs (and hypoe them as being
>| > >next to essential) without letting people know what the compatibility
>| > >issues are.
>| >
>| > That same exact observation has been made before on here many times
>| > and each time that observation generated posts defending MS as if MS
>| > needed defending... Hummmmm. It also generated the usual expected
>| > venom from one specific MVP of which always attacks anyone that has
>| > the audacity to question anything MS does.
>| >
>| > To those of common sense and who are not mindless clones, your are
>| > right in your observation my friend.
>|
>| Common sense would dictate testing and compatibility checking BEFORE
>| installing any updates - in fact, if you check, MS clearly recommends
>| that you check and test before you install any update.
>|
>| What's really amazing is that people defending people that don't
>| test/check before installing updates and then have the audacity to
>| complain about the update.
>|
>| --
>| --
>|
>| remove 999 in order to email me

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

Don;
They as most other major businesses did a lot more than wait.
During that few months, they probably researched possible issues with
Microsoft and their own hardware and software venders.
Appropriate updates. patches etc were installed based on that research.
They also most likely installed SP-2 on a sample of test systems to verify
compatibility with the organizations computers.
Depending on their systems and what they feel needs to be done, that can
take a few months.

In all cases it is important to have all known and unknown issues resolved
before installing anything especially a Service Pack.
Businesses have a lot to lose thus the necessity for testing.
Home users typically do not have similar computers or sufficient quantity to
justify testing so all they need to do is make sure there are no
pre-existing issues.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
In memory of our dear friend, MVP Alex Nichol
http://www.dts-l.org


"Don Taylor From:" > wrote in message
news:jNKdnV1Tqahq-z_fRVn-
> Just curious, do you think that the wait somehow changed something
> so that it worked?
>
> Lots of people have sworn they had no problems when they did this
> with their own gazillions of computers. Lots of people have found
> problems when they did install this. Individual reports don't seem
> to have resulted in any new information really being discovered.

[health_wellness@solution4u.com]

And it is a sure bet you will get the usual bash for even having the
audacity to point out the audacity. Just watch the replies and see.
They are so predictable which rules out any of what you call common
sense.

Need I guess which one is so known for spitting venom when their master
M$ is questioned?

NIK


Shooter wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 14:10:01 -0700, "Al Waschka"
> > wrote:
>
> >Microsoft should not put out service packs (and hypoe them as being next to
> >essential) without letting people know what the compatibility issues are.
>
> That same exact observation has been made before on here many times
> and each time that observation generated posts defending MS as if MS
> needed defending... Hummmmm. It also generated the usual expected
> venom from one specific MVP of which always attacks anyone that has
> the audacity to question anything MS does.
>
> To those of common sense and who are not mindless clones, your are
> right in your observation my friend.
>
> Regards,

[Kerry Brown]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> And it is a sure bet you will get the usual bash for even having the
> audacity to point out the audacity. Just watch the replies and see.
> They are so predictable which rules out any of what you call common
> sense.
>
> Need I guess which one is so known for spitting venom when their master
> M$ is questioned?
>
> NIK
>

Does anybody even look at the headers let alone read the posts. I'll ask
again, which MVP even posted to this thread? Until Jupiter Jones posted
(well after Shooter's post) I don't see any posts from a MVP.

Kerry

>
> Shooter wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 14:10:01 -0700, "Al Waschka"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Microsoft should not put out service packs (and hypoe them as being next
>> >to
>> >essential) without letting people know what the compatibility issues
>> >are.
>>
>> That same exact observation has been made before on here many times
>> and each time that observation generated posts defending MS as if MS
>> needed defending... Hummmmm. It also generated the usual expected
>> venom from one specific MVP of which always attacks anyone that has
>> the audacity to question anything MS does.
>>
>> To those of common sense and who are not mindless clones, your are
>> right in your observation my friend.
>>
>> Regards,
>

[Al Waschka]

Kerry -

An update. The printer is back. I was right, the printer problem was a
fallout of changing BIOS. The new BIOS was defaulted to turn parallel port
OFF. when I turned it back on (and reinstalled the printer drivers since I
didn't know which address it was originally set for in the old BIOS) the
printer came back.

Additional troubleshooting data. The only driver that was out of date was
the Intel Network driver. I installed the latest version with no joy. Then
I went into msconfig and set it for selective startup. I turned off
EVERYTHING and still the system will not come back from a shutdown. So it
would seem that, as I originally said, it is not a driver or hardware
problem. It is a primitive problem in SP2 with my MB, CPU or chipset. Given
that the MB is ASUS, a major manufacturer, and the CPU and chipset are both
Intel, it would seem that some level of compatibility testing could have been
done. I have an e-mail into ASUS. Maybe tomorrow I will try a debug startup
so I can see where the system hangs. There are no significant events in the
system event log.

I'm about out of ideas.


--
Thanks for any help,

Al



"Kerry Brown" wrote:

> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
> ...
> > We obviously have different perspectives. I am a Microsoft customer, and
> > you
> > are on the vendor/supplier side of the line. I didn't say that no one
> > should
> > come out with something that isn't compatible with my computer, only that
> > Microsoft should not put out service packs (and hypoe them as being next
> > to
> > essential) without letting people know what the compatibility issues are.
> > Yeah, its hard, but they make a pile of money off of people like me who
> > buy
> > their products (and sell them in products to my customers).
> >
> >
> > That aside, I appreciate your assistance and I have now tried almost
> > everything you suggested. Thanks for the tip on my daughter's machine, by
> > the way, I will pass that on to her. I will make sure I have all the
> > latest
> > drivers for the motherboard. That is really all there is. It is an all
> > on
> > board solution so there are no video cards, etc. I have the latest
> > printer
> > driver and I can't get it to load. The printer is an HP Photosmart 1215.
> > It
> > tries to load on a DOT4 port, but the install can't find the printer. I
> > suspect that the SP2 problem is related to the loss of connectivity with
> > the
> > DOT4 port but I haven't found anything on MS.com KB, yet.
> >
> > Kerry, again, thanks - It is because of people like you who will help
> > people
> > like me (difficult though we may be) that Microsoft can continue to sell
> > the
> > products they develop.
> >
> > Al
> >
>
> Your welcome.
>
> I have had lots of issues with HP USB printers on all versions of Windows. I
> have actually quit selling them because of support issues. It was costing me
> too much money reinstalling them when customers botched the install. They
> are very finicky. Usually you have to uninstall everything to do with the
> printer then hunt down all the files and registry entries that the uninstall
> doesn't delete. HP's uninstall programs are almost as useless as Norton's.
> Once it's completely clean then install it exactly according to their
> directions. One step out of order and it usually doesn't work and you have
> to do the whole uninstall again. It's particularly important to figure out
> exactly where in the process that the printer needs to be plugged into the
> computer's USB port. They are not consistent. With some printers it's part
> way through the install with other's it's after the install.
>
> Kerry
>
> >
> > "Kerry Brown" wrote:
> >
> >> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > OK, I cleared the CMOS memory, reloaded defaults, and set the
> >> > date/time.
> >> > Same problem.
> >> >
> >> > "Rant mode ON"
> >> >
> >> > While I understand your philosophical comments about troubleshooting (I
> >> > am
> >> > an MSEE with 35 years in the design of hardware, firmware, software and
> >> > systems), that is only one perspective. In my case, it was the
> >> > addition
> >> > of
> >> > SP2 that caused the original problem. I had a working configuration
> >> > with
> >> > all
> >> > hardware supported and everything was fine until I installed SP2. All
> >> > this
> >> > other stuff (printers not working, etc.) was fallout from installing
> >> > SP2
> >> > or
> >> > from changing the BIOS to try to get compatible with SP2. And don't
> >> > forget
> >> > that I had EXACTLY the same problem with the older currently working
> >> > configuration several months back. When I upgraded it to SP2, it
> >> > started
> >> > halting during startup exactly like the new configuration does now. I
> >> > bought
> >> > a new HD, loaded it up, moved over to it and that is the configuration
> >> > that
> >> > is not working now, again after installing SP2. I rebuilt the old HD
> >> > up
> >> > to
> >> > just before SP2, turned off updates and now it is running. I have no
> >> > doubt
> >> > that if I installed SP2, it would also crash.
> >> >
> >> > As to your comment that I may have hardware or software that is not
> >> > compatible with SP2, I can't imagine that it should be necessary to go
> >> > back
> >> > to a clean pre-SPx boot configuration, add SP-x, then reload every
> >> > piece
> >> > of
> >> > software and hardware (until the system stops working) to find
> >> > non-compatible
> >> > hardware and software everytime MS comes out with a SP. They should be
> >> > testing SPs to determine what the the SP confoguration doesn't support
> >> > that
> >> > the pre-SP configuration did, and they should notify users so that they
> >> > can
> >> > make an intelligent decision as to whether or not to install a SP. I
> >> > guess I
> >> > am going to have to reload windows, upgrade to just before SP2 and then
> >> > strop
> >> > installing upgrades. Thats a crappy way to run a business.
> >> >
> >> > I just got a phone call from my daughter. Her computer (HP Notebook)
> >> > had
> >> > been in for repair. She reloaded it and it was working fine. She
> >> > started
> >> > "upgrading" it with MS updates, and after SP2 somehow her WLAN was
> >> > indicating
> >> > low signal and couldn't stay logged on. She wiped it slick again and
> >> > reloaded to just before SP2 and everything is fine again.
> >> >
> >> > I rest my case.....
> >> >
> >> > "RANT mode off"
> >> >
> >> > Regardless, Kerry, thanks for trying to help. I appreciate your
> >> > efforts,
> >> > but I'm becoming convinced that this is an inherent problem with SP2
> >> > that
> >> > I
> >> > will not be able to fix.
> >> >
> >> > Al
> >> >
> >>
> >> The HP laptop problem has a known fix that's quite easy to find. I'm
> >> suprised the repair shop didn't know about it. Do a google search for HP
> >> XP
> >> SP2 WLAN.
> >>
> >> There is no possible way Microsoft could test every possible combination
> >> of
> >> hardware and software. They have a section of their web site dedicated to
> >> installing SP2 with many helpful troubleshooting tips.
> >>
> >> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?&pr=windowsxpsp2
> >>
> >> I have done several hundred installs of SP2 and only seen one computer
> >> that
> >> was not compatible. I have seen a few USB devices that aren't compatible.
> >> I
> >> have seen lot's of software including software from Microsoft that is not
> >> compatible. If you don't figure out what is causing the problem you are
> >> stuck with your computer as it is now. You may be locked out of future
> >> updates as they may require SP2. That decision is up to you. Personally I
> >> think the security improvements are worth the effort to get it working.
> >>
> >> Rant mode on (it's a rant not a flame)
> >>
> >> With your experience you must know the logistics involved with testing
> >> such
> >> a varied and large installed base. You also must have developed a
> >> methodolgy
> >> of testing when something goes wrong. It is common for upgrades to cause
> >> problems with previously working systems whether the upgrade is hardware,
> >> firmware or software. An upgrade changes things by it's very nature. What
> >> you are saying is that once you purchase a computer no one should ever
> >> come
> >> out with something that won't work on it. That is unrealistic. And yes it
> >> sometimes comes down to a clean install of Windows, then SP2, then
> >> drivers
> >> and programs to find the incompatibilty. That is a last resort. I
> >> suggested
> >> a couple of other steps first. In any case your argument about doing a
> >> clean
> >> install, then rebuilding the system, then installing SP2 is clearly
> >> backwards and will only get you to the same place that doesn't work every
> >> time.
> >>
> >> Rant mode off
> >>
> >> Like I said earlier I believe the increased security of SP2 is worth the
> >> effort but it's your computer. I have several paying customers who think
> >> likewise so you are not alone. They are of the opinion that they upgrade
> >> their systems every few years anyway so the next upgrade will solve the
> >> problem. For them the cost of troubleshooting the current working systems
> >> isn't worth it. As long as you have a good firewall in place and practice
> >> safe computing SP2 isn't essential.
> >>
> >> Kerry
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "Kerry Brown" wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> > Oh,yeah....
> >> >> > Wouldn't the fact that loading from one partition "repairs" a load
> >> >> > from
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > different partition indicate that some driver or dll or whatever
> >> >> > isn't
> >> >> > getting loaded into memory by the defective partition and survives a
> >> >> > restart
> >> >> > but not a cold boot? And this is not a random occurrence. I had
> >> >> > exactly
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > same problem (symptoms-wise) a few months ago. It came back,
> >> >> > exactly
> >> >> > like
> >> >> > before, when I "upgraded" to SP2.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> To find out what is causing the problem you have to eliminate the
> >> >> simple,
> >> >> obvious things first. Booting into a working install of Windows may
> >> >> initialise some hardware that is not happening on the other install
> >> >> with
> >> >> SP2. If the installs were exactly the same except for SP2 then I would
> >> >> suspect SP2. The installs are not exactly the same. You mentioned that
> >> >> some
> >> >> time elapsed, printers were installed etc. Troubleshooting is a time
> >> >> consuming process with few if any shortcuts. Test for the problem
> >> >> after
> >> >> each
> >> >> change. Start with the simplest steps first. 1) Reset the CMOS. Test
> >> >> for
> >> >> the
> >> >> problem. 2) disconnect the printer that had problems and remove it's
> >> >> drivers
> >> >> Test for the problem. 3) download and install the latest drivers for
> >> >> all
> >> >> your other hardware. Test for the problem, and so on and so on until
> >> >> it's
> >> >> solved. It may very well end up that something, hardware or software,
> >> >> is
> >> >> not
> >> >> compatible with SP2. Until you eliminate all the other possibilities
> >> >> you'll
> >> >> never know.
> >> >>
> >> >> Kerry
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > "Kerry Brown" wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
> >> >> >> ...
> >> >> >> > My defective SP2 installation is on Drive0
> >> >> >> > My working pre-SP2 installation is on Drive1
> >> >> >> > When 0 will not start, if I switch boot device in CMOS to 1,
> >> >> >> > windows
> >> >> >> > comes
> >> >> >> > up, as expected.
> >> >> >> > If I then switch back to 0, IT WORKS!
> >> >> >> > But then, if I cycle power, i.e. shutdown followed by startup, it
> >> >> >> > hangs
> >> >> >> > again.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> That's nice, but it doesn't answer my question. :-) Did you reset
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> CMOS
> >> >> >> via the jumper on the motherboard after flashing the BIOS? Failure
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> do
> >> >> >> this can sometimes cause erratic results like you are describing.
> >> >> >> This
> >> >> >> may
> >> >> >> not solve the problem but it eliminates one possible cause.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Kerry
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>

[Kerry Brown]

"Al Waschka" > wrote in message
...
> Kerry -
>
> An update. The printer is back. I was right, the printer problem was a
> fallout of changing BIOS. The new BIOS was defaulted to turn parallel
> port
> OFF. when I turned it back on (and reinstalled the printer drivers since
> I
> didn't know which address it was originally set for in the old BIOS) the
> printer came back.
>
> Additional troubleshooting data. The only driver that was out of date was
> the Intel Network driver. I installed the latest version with no joy.
> Then
> I went into msconfig and set it for selective startup. I turned off
> EVERYTHING and still the system will not come back from a shutdown. So it
> would seem that, as I originally said, it is not a driver or hardware
> problem. It is a primitive problem in SP2 with my MB, CPU or chipset.
> Given
> that the MB is ASUS, a major manufacturer, and the CPU and chipset are
> both
> Intel, it would seem that some level of compatibility testing could have
> been
> done. I have an e-mail into ASUS. Maybe tomorrow I will try a debug
> startup
> so I can see where the system hangs. There are no significant events in
> the
> system event log.
>
> I'm about out of ideas.
>
>
> --
> Thanks for any help,
>
> Al
>

Good luck, hope you get it figured out. Let us know what happens.

Kerry


>
>
> "Kerry Brown" wrote:
>
>> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > We obviously have different perspectives. I am a Microsoft customer,
>> > and
>> > you
>> > are on the vendor/supplier side of the line. I didn't say that no one
>> > should
>> > come out with something that isn't compatible with my computer, only
>> > that
>> > Microsoft should not put out service packs (and hypoe them as being
>> > next
>> > to
>> > essential) without letting people know what the compatibility issues
>> > are.
>> > Yeah, its hard, but they make a pile of money off of people like me who
>> > buy
>> > their products (and sell them in products to my customers).
>> >
>> >
>> > That aside, I appreciate your assistance and I have now tried almost
>> > everything you suggested. Thanks for the tip on my daughter's machine,
>> > by
>> > the way, I will pass that on to her. I will make sure I have all the
>> > latest
>> > drivers for the motherboard. That is really all there is. It is an
>> > all
>> > on
>> > board solution so there are no video cards, etc. I have the latest
>> > printer
>> > driver and I can't get it to load. The printer is an HP Photosmart
>> > 1215.
>> > It
>> > tries to load on a DOT4 port, but the install can't find the printer.
>> > I
>> > suspect that the SP2 problem is related to the loss of connectivity
>> > with
>> > the
>> > DOT4 port but I haven't found anything on MS.com KB, yet.
>> >
>> > Kerry, again, thanks - It is because of people like you who will help
>> > people
>> > like me (difficult though we may be) that Microsoft can continue to
>> > sell
>> > the
>> > products they develop.
>> >
>> > Al
>> >
>>
>> Your welcome.
>>
>> I have had lots of issues with HP USB printers on all versions of
>> Windows. I
>> have actually quit selling them because of support issues. It was costing
>> me
>> too much money reinstalling them when customers botched the install. They
>> are very finicky. Usually you have to uninstall everything to do with the
>> printer then hunt down all the files and registry entries that the
>> uninstall
>> doesn't delete. HP's uninstall programs are almost as useless as
>> Norton's.
>> Once it's completely clean then install it exactly according to their
>> directions. One step out of order and it usually doesn't work and you
>> have
>> to do the whole uninstall again. It's particularly important to figure
>> out
>> exactly where in the process that the printer needs to be plugged into
>> the
>> computer's USB port. They are not consistent. With some printers it's
>> part
>> way through the install with other's it's after the install.
>>
>> Kerry
>>
>> >
>> > "Kerry Brown" wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > OK, I cleared the CMOS memory, reloaded defaults, and set the
>> >> > date/time.
>> >> > Same problem.
>> >> >
>> >> > "Rant mode ON"
>> >> >
>> >> > While I understand your philosophical comments about troubleshooting
>> >> > (I
>> >> > am
>> >> > an MSEE with 35 years in the design of hardware, firmware, software
>> >> > and
>> >> > systems), that is only one perspective. In my case, it was the
>> >> > addition
>> >> > of
>> >> > SP2 that caused the original problem. I had a working configuration
>> >> > with
>> >> > all
>> >> > hardware supported and everything was fine until I installed SP2.
>> >> > All
>> >> > this
>> >> > other stuff (printers not working, etc.) was fallout from installing
>> >> > SP2
>> >> > or
>> >> > from changing the BIOS to try to get compatible with SP2. And don't
>> >> > forget
>> >> > that I had EXACTLY the same problem with the older currently working
>> >> > configuration several months back. When I upgraded it to SP2, it
>> >> > started
>> >> > halting during startup exactly like the new configuration does now.
>> >> > I
>> >> > bought
>> >> > a new HD, loaded it up, moved over to it and that is the
>> >> > configuration
>> >> > that
>> >> > is not working now, again after installing SP2. I rebuilt the old
>> >> > HD
>> >> > up
>> >> > to
>> >> > just before SP2, turned off updates and now it is running. I have
>> >> > no
>> >> > doubt
>> >> > that if I installed SP2, it would also crash.
>> >> >
>> >> > As to your comment that I may have hardware or software that is not
>> >> > compatible with SP2, I can't imagine that it should be necessary to
>> >> > go
>> >> > back
>> >> > to a clean pre-SPx boot configuration, add SP-x, then reload every
>> >> > piece
>> >> > of
>> >> > software and hardware (until the system stops working) to find
>> >> > non-compatible
>> >> > hardware and software everytime MS comes out with a SP. They should
>> >> > be
>> >> > testing SPs to determine what the the SP confoguration doesn't
>> >> > support
>> >> > that
>> >> > the pre-SP configuration did, and they should notify users so that
>> >> > they
>> >> > can
>> >> > make an intelligent decision as to whether or not to install a SP.
>> >> > I
>> >> > guess I
>> >> > am going to have to reload windows, upgrade to just before SP2 and
>> >> > then
>> >> > strop
>> >> > installing upgrades. Thats a crappy way to run a business.
>> >> >
>> >> > I just got a phone call from my daughter. Her computer (HP
>> >> > Notebook)
>> >> > had
>> >> > been in for repair. She reloaded it and it was working fine. She
>> >> > started
>> >> > "upgrading" it with MS updates, and after SP2 somehow her WLAN was
>> >> > indicating
>> >> > low signal and couldn't stay logged on. She wiped it slick again
>> >> > and
>> >> > reloaded to just before SP2 and everything is fine again.
>> >> >
>> >> > I rest my case.....
>> >> >
>> >> > "RANT mode off"
>> >> >
>> >> > Regardless, Kerry, thanks for trying to help. I appreciate your
>> >> > efforts,
>> >> > but I'm becoming convinced that this is an inherent problem with SP2
>> >> > that
>> >> > I
>> >> > will not be able to fix.
>> >> >
>> >> > Al
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> The HP laptop problem has a known fix that's quite easy to find. I'm
>> >> suprised the repair shop didn't know about it. Do a google search for
>> >> HP
>> >> XP
>> >> SP2 WLAN.
>> >>
>> >> There is no possible way Microsoft could test every possible
>> >> combination
>> >> of
>> >> hardware and software. They have a section of their web site dedicated
>> >> to
>> >> installing SP2 with many helpful troubleshooting tips.
>> >>
>> >> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?&pr=windowsxpsp2
>> >>
>> >> I have done several hundred installs of SP2 and only seen one computer
>> >> that
>> >> was not compatible. I have seen a few USB devices that aren't
>> >> compatible.
>> >> I
>> >> have seen lot's of software including software from Microsoft that is
>> >> not
>> >> compatible. If you don't figure out what is causing the problem you
>> >> are
>> >> stuck with your computer as it is now. You may be locked out of future
>> >> updates as they may require SP2. That decision is up to you.
>> >> Personally I
>> >> think the security improvements are worth the effort to get it
>> >> working.
>> >>
>> >> Rant mode on (it's a rant not a flame)
>> >>
>> >> With your experience you must know the logistics involved with testing
>> >> such
>> >> a varied and large installed base. You also must have developed a
>> >> methodolgy
>> >> of testing when something goes wrong. It is common for upgrades to
>> >> cause
>> >> problems with previously working systems whether the upgrade is
>> >> hardware,
>> >> firmware or software. An upgrade changes things by it's very nature.
>> >> What
>> >> you are saying is that once you purchase a computer no one should ever
>> >> come
>> >> out with something that won't work on it. That is unrealistic. And yes
>> >> it
>> >> sometimes comes down to a clean install of Windows, then SP2, then
>> >> drivers
>> >> and programs to find the incompatibilty. That is a last resort. I
>> >> suggested
>> >> a couple of other steps first. In any case your argument about doing a
>> >> clean
>> >> install, then rebuilding the system, then installing SP2 is clearly
>> >> backwards and will only get you to the same place that doesn't work
>> >> every
>> >> time.
>> >>
>> >> Rant mode off
>> >>
>> >> Like I said earlier I believe the increased security of SP2 is worth
>> >> the
>> >> effort but it's your computer. I have several paying customers who
>> >> think
>> >> likewise so you are not alone. They are of the opinion that they
>> >> upgrade
>> >> their systems every few years anyway so the next upgrade will solve
>> >> the
>> >> problem. For them the cost of troubleshooting the current working
>> >> systems
>> >> isn't worth it. As long as you have a good firewall in place and
>> >> practice
>> >> safe computing SP2 isn't essential.
>> >>
>> >> Kerry
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > "Kerry Brown" wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "Al Waschka" > wrote in message
>> >> >> ...
>> >> >> > Oh,yeah....
>> >> >> > Wouldn't the fact that loading from one partition "repairs" a
>> >> >> > load
>> >> >> > from
>> >> >> > a
>> >> >> > different partition indicate that some driver or dll or whatever
>> >> >> > isn't
>> >> >> > getting loaded into memory by the defective partition and
>> >> >> > survives a
>> >> >> > restart
>> >> >> > but not a cold boot? And this is not a random occurrence. I had
>> >> >> > exactly
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > same problem (symptoms-wise) a few months ago. It came back,
>> >> >> > exactly
>> >> >> > like
>> >> >> > before, when I "upgraded" to SP2.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> To find out what is causing the problem you have to eliminate the
>> >> >> simple,
>> >> >> obvious things first. Booting into a working install of Windows may
>> >> >> initialise some hardware that is not happening on the other install
>> >> >> with
>> >> >> SP2. If the installs were exactly the same except for SP2 then I
>> >> >> would
>> >> >> suspect SP2. The installs are not exactly the same. You mentioned
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> some
>> >> >> time elapsed, printers were installed etc. Troubleshooting is a
>> >> >> time
>> >> >> consuming process with few if any shortcuts. Test for the problem
>> >> >> after
>> >> >> each
>> >> >> change. Start with the simplest steps first. 1) Reset the CMOS.
>> >> >> Test
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> problem. 2) disconnect the printer that had problems and remove
>> >> >> it's
>> >> >> drivers
>> >> >> Test for the problem. 3) download and install the latest drivers
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> all
>> >> >> your other hardware. Test for the problem, and so on and so on
>> >> >> until
>> >> >> it's
>> >> >> solved. It may very well end up that something, hardware or
>> >> >> software,
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> compatible with SP2. Until you eliminate all the other
>> >> >> possibilities
>> >> >> you'll
>> >> >> never know.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Kerry
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > "Kerry Brown" wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> "Al Waschka" > wrote in
>> >> >> >> message
>> >> >> >> ...
>> >> >> >> > My defective SP2 installation is on Drive0
>> >> >> >> > My working pre-SP2 installation is on Drive1
>> >> >> >> > When 0 will not start, if I switch boot device in CMOS to 1,
>> >> >> >> > windows
>> >> >> >> > comes
>> >> >> >> > up, as expected.
>> >> >> >> > If I then switch back to 0, IT WORKS!
>> >> >> >> > But then, if I cycle power, i.e. shutdown followed by startup,
>> >> >> >> > it
>> >> >> >> > hangs
>> >> >> >> > again.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> That's nice, but it doesn't answer my question. :-) Did you
>> >> >> >> reset
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> CMOS
>> >> >> >> via the jumper on the motherboard after flashing the BIOS?
>> >> >> >> Failure
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> do
>> >> >> >> this can sometimes cause erratic results like you are
>> >> >> >> describing.
>> >> >> >> This
>> >> >> >> may
>> >> >> >> not solve the problem but it eliminates one possible cause.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Kerry
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>

[Shooter]

On 4 Jun 2005 20:23:22 -0700, wrote:

>And it is a sure bet you will get the usual bash for even having the
>audacity to point out the audacity.

I wouldn't expect anything less. You did mention predictability,
didn't you?

Regards,

[health_wellness@solution4u.com]

Ah, "Predictability", hallmark characteristic of a Clone. That's why
they are such fun to watch and even more fun to throw a bone now and
then to watch the "Predictable" reaction. You could make book on them
in Vegas.

NIK


Shooter wrote:
> I wouldn't expect anything less. You did mention predictability,
> didn't you?
>
> Regards,