An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

[Neil Obstat]

Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
products.

Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated graphics in
certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved to
the selected location." I have read the reason for this before, yet a
search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I looked for
the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what the
error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make sure
I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet Explorer
6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck.
Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge base.
That would be helpful.

Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops, hang
on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS IN
THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d location"
has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the page,
no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge base,
unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that was
released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original question
was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean, I
know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to save
the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it doesn't
work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having broken
it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken it,
you were planning on doing anything about it.

And then I tried to ask you that.

I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to get
to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at your
company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved completely
impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company. But
because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You told
me to go to Dell. As it were.

Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No, Dell did
not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell? Dell
doesn't know what you've done.

Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux. Other
people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I might've
liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such
thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big game
in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal with
you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I buy
a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would like
Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I cannot
get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.

I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I decided
to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed it.
It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version. Meaning
it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There was a
rebate. It was free, after the rebate.

Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At this
point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you great
jolly megalith, you.

I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours every
damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on a
soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.

Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer"
(wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of "Windows
XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you don't
offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.

But...I bought it in this country.

Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again.
Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay.

I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went through
every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the phone!
That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to Dell
for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.

But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your "communities"
for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full of
bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like most of
your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a
question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can figure
out the answer to that.

I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups. Ninety
trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden, cookie-
filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, doesn't
get much more modern than a newsgroup. Of course, fewer and fewer people
are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use newsgroups.
But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve technical
help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for a
computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your
software.

Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour before.
Elegant.

And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! "Coming
Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to use
the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to protect
essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week, when
the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take out
a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable personal
information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even
planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me
bothering you with my little problems.

(Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive "is
not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay because I'm
smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I can
make my computer's life a little easier.)

Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar references
just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account just
so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the useless
support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID which
is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for
that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which of
these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us all
your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
"Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to screw
people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is
really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the whole
world. Let's hope, anyway.)

But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've taken
such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me click
inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You really do
care!

Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.

Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?

Neil Obstat

[Mike Brannigan [MSFT]]

Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat" > wrote in
message 48.16...
> Hello, Microsoft.
>
> I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am
> supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> products.
>

This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)

> Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated graphics in
> certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved to
> the selected location."

Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.

Are you Save As. Web page complete.
This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to that
contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions to
creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.

Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the
content embedded.

On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better
results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file)

> I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I looked
for
> the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what the
> error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make
sure
> I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
> SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet Explorer
> 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck.
> Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge base.
> That would be helpful.
>

The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
If you go to the Knowledgebase at
http://support.microsoft.com/
Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search
topics-
enter
"The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing
and Using ... The exact phrase entered

Produces one result
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589

Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??


> Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops, hang
> on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS IN
> THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d
location"
> has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the page,
> no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge base,
> unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that was
> released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original
question
> was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean, I
> know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to
save
> the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it doesn't
> work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having broken
> it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken it,
> you were planning on doing anything about it.
>

Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I found.

> And then I tried to ask you that.
>
> I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to get
> to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at your
> company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved completely
> impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company. But
> because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You told
> me to go to Dell. As it were.
>

The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up to
Dell to provide you with support.

> Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No, Dell
did
> not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell? Dell
> doesn't know what you've done.
>

Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to technical
data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an OEM
machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the only
ones who can provide the required support.
Dell do and can know "what we have done"

> Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux. Other
> people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I might've
> liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such
> thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big game
> in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal with
> you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
> something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I buy
> a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would like
> Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I
cannot
> get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
>

You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems or
non at all.
You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they
ship.
See comment above about OEM support.
If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements (including)
choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.

> I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I decided
> to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed it.
> It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version. Meaning
> it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There was a
> rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
>

Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.

> Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At this
> point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
> responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you
great
> jolly megalith, you.
>
> I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours every
> damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on a
> soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
>


> Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer"
> (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of "Windows
> XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you don't
> offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
>
> But...I bought it in this country.
>
> Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again.
> Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay.
>

Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ? Was
it a grey import ?
If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem
(please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where you
are.)

> I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went
through
> every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the
phone!
> That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to Dell
> for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
>

Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and
possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to
provide the necessary support on the product.
They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and also
to raise bugs etc should that be needed.

> But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your "communities"
> for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full of
> bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like most of
> your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a
> question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can figure
> out the answer to that.
>
Do you mean here
http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
or
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx

Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.

> I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups. Ninety
> trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden, cookie-
> filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, doesn't
> get much more modern than a newsgroup.

What would you prefer?
This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that the
technical community operate in.

> Of course, fewer and fewer people
> are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use newsgroups.
> But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve technical
> help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for a
> computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your
> software.
>

We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide
support for their OEM supplied products.

There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
advice on setting up real newsreader programs.

> Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
> Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour before.
> Elegant.
>

Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and then
may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services. The
web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.

> And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! "Coming
> Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to use
> the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to protect
> essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week, when
> the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take out
> a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable
personal
> information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even
> planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me
> bothering you with my little problems.
>

If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made no
effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or
otherwise) - then this is not our fault.

> (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive "is
> not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay because
I'm
> smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I can
> make my computer's life a little easier.)
>

ok

> Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
> certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar references
> just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
> support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account
just
> so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the useless
> support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID which
> is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for
> that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which of
> these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us all
> your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
> "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to screw
> people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is
> really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the whole
> world. Let's hope, anyway.)
>
> But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've taken
> such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me click
> inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You really
do
> care!
>

Yes - we do.

> Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
>
> Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
>
> Neil Obstat

[Amethyst]

Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:
> Neil,
>
> Comments inline
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Mike
>
> "Neil Obstat" > wrote
> in message 48.16...
>> Hello, Microsoft.
>>
>> I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I
>> am supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
>> products.
>>
>
> This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
> support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
>
>> Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated
>> graphics in certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could
>> not be saved to the selected location."
>
> Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
>
> Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving
> to that contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have
> permissions to creat this addtional folder for the page you are
> Saving.
>
> Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all
> the content embedded.
>
> On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced
> better results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single
> file)
>
>> I have read the reason for this before, yet a
>> search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I
>> looked for the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's
>> part of what the error message says. It uses those very words. I
>> even checked to make sure I spelled it exactly right. Seems like
>> that text would be present SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under
>> the section for Internet Explorer 6, the program that gives me the
>> error message. Nope. No such luck. Apparently your error messages
>> do not coordinate with your knowledge base. That would be helpful.
>>
>
> The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> http://support.microsoft.com/
> Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
> Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft
> Search topics-
> enter
> "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution
> containing
> and Using ... The exact phrase entered
>
> Produces one result
> http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589
>
> Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??
>
>
>> Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops,
>> hang on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE
>> I WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that,
>> Microsoft!)d location" has nothing to do with the error. No matter
>> where I try to save the page, no luck. I believe, from what I read
>> before (from your knowledge base, unless I am greatly mistaken) that
>> this has to do with an update that was released at some point for
>> Internet Explorer. I guess my original question was, are you going
>> to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean, I know you know
>> the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to save the
>> occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it
>> doesn't work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if,
>> having broken it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that
>> you had broken it, you were planning on doing anything about it.
>>
>
> Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I
> found.
>
>> And then I tried to ask you that.
>>
>> I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed
>> to get to ask you a question. But as every single technical
>> operative at your company is more important than the Wizard of Oz,
>> this proved completely impossible. I bought my computer from Dell.
>> Dell's a fine company. But because I did that, you won't let me ask
>> you about the product. You told me to go to Dell. As it were.
>>
>
> The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is
> up to Dell to provide you with support.
>
>> Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No,
>> Dell did not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask
>> Dell? Dell doesn't know what you've done.
>>
>
> Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to
> technical data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition
> since it is an OEM machine and OS Dell may have modified the system
> and as such are the only ones who can provide the required support.
> Dell do and can know "what we have done"
>
>> Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux.
>> Other people do still make operating systems out there, don't they?
>> I might've liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix
>> or some such thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since
>> you're the big game in town I have to buy your software with the
>> system. Dell has a deal with you. Dell paid something for that
>> software, maybe not retail, but something. I'm sure they're not
>> giving it to me for nothing. So if I buy a computer from Dell--or
>> almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would like Windows, I have to
>> buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I cannot get support
>> for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
>>
>
> You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing
> systems or non at all.
> You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs
> they ship.
> See comment above about OEM support.
> If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements
> (including) choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
>
>> I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I
>> decided to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I
>> installed it. It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an
>> OEM version. Meaning it's the only thing made by you I've EVER
>> CHOSEN to purchase. There was a rebate. It was free, after the
>> rebate.
>>
>
> Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.
>
>> Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At
>> this point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any
>> sense of responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the
>> world, you great jolly megalith, you.
>>
>> I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours
>> every damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or
>> occasionally on a soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
>>
>
>
>> Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet
>> Explorer" (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean
>> instead of "Windows XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told
>> (drumroll, please)...you don't offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for
>> that Product ID.
>>
>> But...I bought it in this country.
>>
>> Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once
>> again. Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this
>> country." Okay.
>>
>
> Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside
> ? Was it a grey import ?
> If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a
> problem (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not
> state where you are.)
>
>> I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went
>> through every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call
>> you on the phone! That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you
>> tell me to go to Dell for support on a product YOU wrote and
>> published. Cool.
>>
>
> Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines
> and possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support
> personnel to provide the necessary support on the product.
> They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and
> also to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
>
>> But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your
>> "communities" for support. That's where I found a really neat-o
>> looking page full of bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an
>> advertisement. Like most of your products do, these days. Did I
>> see any place for me to submit a question for the consideration of
>> the "community?" I bet you can figure out the answer to that.
>>
> Do you mean here
> http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
> or
> http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx
>
> Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
>
>> I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups.
>> Ninety trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated,
>> script-ridden, cookie- filled web page, and you send people to the
>> newsgroups. Yessir, doesn't get much more modern than a newsgroup.
>
> What would you prefer?
> This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community
> that the technical community operate in.
>
>> Of course, fewer and fewer people
>> are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use
>> newsgroups. But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't
>> deserve technical help, do they? They only shelled out money for
>> your software, or for a computer which came with
>> mandatorily-installed copies of some of your software.
>>
>
> We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs
> provide support for their OEM supplied products.
>
> There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
> advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
>
>> Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
>> Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour
>> before. Elegant.
>>
>
> Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes
> and then may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support
> services. The web is not a linear construct people enter from
> various directions.
>
>> And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped!
>> "Coming Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott
>> explains how to use the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party
>> back up tools to protect essential data." Well, that would have
>> been useful before last week, when the partition table on my main
>> data drive decided to go south and take out a year's worth of
>> projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable personal
>> information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't
>> even planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't
>> need me bothering you with my little problems.
>>
>
> If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you
> made no effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software
> (backup or otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
>
>> (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive
>> "is not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay
>> because I'm smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I
>> like knowing I can make my computer's life a little easier.)
>>
>
> ok
>
>> Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
>> certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar
>> references just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID
>> you won't support...in this country. I had to create a stinking
>> Hotmail account just so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even
>> take a look at the useless support page that wound up helping me not
>> one whit. (A Passport ID which is now linked to my user account on
>> this computer. Super. Thanks for that.) That, of course, involved
>> trudging through 15 pages of "which of these newsletters would you
>> like to subscribe to" and "please tell us all your hobbies." So I
>> can get an email account. (But not one with "Microsoft" or "Bill
>> Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to screw people, and
>> that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is really
>> William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the whole
>> world. Let's hope, anyway.)
>>
>> But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've
>> taken such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have
>> me click inside little square boxes in order that you may learn
>> about the intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated
>> life. You really do care!
>>
>
> Yes - we do.
>
>> Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
>>
>> Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
>>
>> Neil Obstat

Congratulations, Michael! You deserve a medal for making it all the way to
the end of that diatribe without calling it a 'moron', '****wit', 'cretin',
'idiot' or any combination of the aforementioned. The original message
didn't appear on my server (but I'm so glad you quoted it in its entirety -
I needed the laugh!) so I can't check its message headers, but I'm glad it
doesn't live on our fair isle! It doesn't even appear to know what OS it's
running as, for some bizarro-world (yep, I'm a Simpsons nut...) reason he
posted to a 98 group. You must remember the classic urban myth of a WP
employee telling a customer to repackage his system because he was too
stupid to own a computer? Methinks Dell (or MS!) should tell this ****wit
the same! ;o)

Blessed be,

Cass


--
Cassandra
Card carrying member of the Fresh Start Club 'The Undead Are People
Too!'

Reply address is fake. Please send all praise, abuse, insults, bequests
of £1million to cassandra (at) craigy34 (dot) freeserve (dot) co (dot)
uk. Change the obvious to the obvious.
Private requests for assistance will not be acknowledged. Please post
all correspondence to the group so that all may benefit. Thank you.

[Will Denny]

Hi Cass

I've stopped my attacks on MVPs - perhaps you could lower you language a =
tad.

Will

> Congratulations, Michael! You deserve a medal for making it all the =
way to
> the end of that diatribe without calling it a 'moron', '****wit', =
'cretin',
> 'idiot' or any combination of the aforementioned. The original message
> didn't appear on my server (but I'm so glad you quoted it in its =
entirety -
> I needed the laugh!) so I can't check its message headers, but I'm =
glad it
> doesn't live on our fair isle! It doesn't even appear to know what OS =
it's
> running as, for some bizarro-world (yep, I'm a Simpsons nut...) reason =
he
> posted to a 98 group. You must remember the classic urban myth of a WP
> employee telling a customer to repackage his system because he was too
> stupid to own a computer? Methinks Dell (or MS!) should tell this =
****wit
> the same! ;o)
>=20
> Blessed be,
>=20
> Cass



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003

[Kadaitcha Man]

Amethyst wrote:
> Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:

> Congratulations, Michael! You deserve a medal for

You deserve the Nobel Prize for Idiocy after reposting all 15k just so you
could add your cackles, you daft bint.

> making it all the
> way to the end of that diatribe without calling it a 'moron',
> '****wit', 'cretin', 'idiot' or any combination of the
> aforementioned.

Yes, it is amazing that Mike Brannigan [MSFT] avoided comparing the OP to
you.

> The original message didn't appear on my server (but
> I'm so glad you quoted it in its entirety - I needed the laugh!)

You reposted the whole lot. Har-hardy-har-har. What was it you were saying
about wasting bandwdith?

> so I
> can't check its message headers, but I'm glad it doesn't live on our
> fair isle! It doesn't even appear to know what OS it's running as,
> for some bizarro-world (yep, I'm a Simpsons nut...) reason he posted

You're just a nut. Ok, you're a ****ing nut.

> to a 98 group. You must remember the classic urban myth of a WP
> employee telling a customer to repackage his system because he was
> too stupid to own a computer? Methinks Dell (or MS!) should tell this
> ****wit the same! ;o)

"This ****wit" being you. Or did you really mean that ****wit?

> Blessed be,

How incongruous.

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

[Kadaitcha Man]

Will Denny wrote:

> I've stopped my attacks on MVPs

But only because you have come to realise that those "attacks" were
pot-kettle-black lames.

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

[Ted]

"Amethyst" > wrote in message =
...
> Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:

<snipped Mike's spelling bee>

>=20
> Congratulations, Michael! You deserve a medal for making it all the =
way to
> the end of that diatribe without calling it a 'moron', '****wit', =
'cretin',
> 'idiot' or any combination of the aforementioned. The original message
> didn't appear on my server (but I'm so glad you quoted it in its =
entirety -
> I needed the laugh!) so I can't check its message headers, but I'm =
glad it
> doesn't live on our fair isle! It doesn't even appear to know what OS =
it's
> running as, for some bizarro-world (yep, I'm a Simpsons nut...) reason =
he
> posted to a 98 group. You must remember the classic urban myth of a WP
> employee telling a customer to repackage his system because he was too
> stupid to own a computer? Methinks Dell (or MS!) should tell this =
****wit
> the same! ;o)

You're such a lame ****! While you attack others about proper posting, =
and spelling, you congratulate the MS host spelling ****wit with praise. =
Only a fruitloop bint such as yourself, would think such an =
inconsistency, consistent!

[David Candy]

You know you aren't going to be picked anytime soon as a case study on =
how to deal with irate customers sucessfully.

--=20
http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm
http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Candy
http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message =
...
> Neil,
>=20
> Comments inline
>=20
> --=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Mike
> --
> Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>=20
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights
>=20
> Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> newsgroups
>=20
> "Neil Obstat" > wrote =
in
> message 48.16...
> > Hello, Microsoft.
> >
> > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I =
am
> > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > products.
> >
>=20
> This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
> support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
>=20
> > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated =
graphics in
> > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be =
saved to
> > the selected location."
>=20
> Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
>=20
> Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to =
that
> contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions =
to
> creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.
>=20
> Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all =
the
> content embedded.
>=20
> On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced =
better
> results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file)
>=20
> > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I =
looked
> for
> > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what =
the
> > error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to =
make
> sure
> > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
> > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet =
Explorer
> > 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such =
luck.
> > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge =
base.
> > That would be helpful.
> >
>=20
> The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> http://support.microsoft.com/
> Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
> Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft =
Search
> topics-
> enter
> "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution =
containing
> and Using ... The exact phrase entered
>=20
> Produces one result
> http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=3D235589
>=20
> Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??
>=20
>=20
> > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops, =
hang
> > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I =
WAS IN
> > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d
> location"
> > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the =
page,
> > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge =
base,
> > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update =
that was
> > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original
> question
> > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I =
mean, I
> > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able =
to
> save
> > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it =
doesn't
> > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having =
broken
> > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had =
broken it,
> > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> >
>=20
> Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I =
found.
>=20
> > And then I tried to ask you that.
> >
> > I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed =
to get
> > to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at =
your
> > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved =
completely
> > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company. =
But
> > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You =
told
> > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> >
>=20
> The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is =
up to
> Dell to provide you with support.
>=20
> > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No, =
Dell
> did
> > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell? =
Dell
> > doesn't know what you've done.
> >
>=20
> Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to =
technical
> data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an =
OEM
> machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the =
only
> ones who can provide the required support.
> Dell do and can know "what we have done"
>=20
> > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux. =
Other
> > people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I =
might've
> > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some =
such
> > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big =
game
> > in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a =
deal with
> > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
> > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if =
I buy
> > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I =
would like
> > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I
> cannot
> > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
> >
>=20
> You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing =
systems or
> non at all.
> You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs =
they
> ship.
> See comment above about OEM support.
> If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements =
(including)
> choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
>=20
> > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I =
decided
> > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I =
installed it.
> > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version. =
Meaning
> > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There =
was a
> > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> >
>=20
> Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product =3D support by =
OEM.
>=20
> > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At =
this
> > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
> > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, =
you
> great
> > jolly megalith, you.
> >
> > I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours =
every
> > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally =
on a
> > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> >
>=20
>=20
> > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet =
Explorer"
> > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of =
"Windows
> > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you =
don't
> > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> >
> > But...I bought it in this country.
> >
> > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once =
again.
> > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." =
Okay.
> >
>=20
> Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside =
? Was
> it a grey import ?
> If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a =
problem
> (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state =
where you
> are.)
>=20
> > I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went
> through
> > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the
> phone!
> > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to =
Dell
> > for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
> >
>=20
> Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines =
and
> possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel =
to
> provide the necessary support on the product.
> They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and =
also
> to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
>=20
> > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your =
"communities"
> > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full =
of
> > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like =
most of
> > your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit =
a
> > question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can =
figure
> > out the answer to that.
> >
> Do you mean here
> http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
> or
> http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx
>=20
> Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
>=20
> > I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups. =
Ninety
> > trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden, =
cookie-
> > filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, =
doesn't
> > get much more modern than a newsgroup.
>=20
> What would you prefer?
> This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community =
that the
> technical community operate in.
>=20
> > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use =
newsgroups.
> > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve =
technical
> > help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or =
for a
> > computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of =
your
> > software.
> >
>=20
> We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs =
provide
> support for their OEM supplied products.
>=20
> There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
> advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
>=20
> > Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
> > Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour =
before.
> > Elegant.
> >
>=20
> Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and =
then
> may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services. =
The
> web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.
>=20
> > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! =
"Coming
> > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how =
to use
> > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to =
protect
> > essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last =
week, when
> > the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and =
take out
> > a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable
> personal
> > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't =
even
> > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need =
me
> > bothering you with my little problems.
> >
>=20
> If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you =
made no
> effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup =
or
> otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
>=20
> > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive =
"is
> > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay =
because
> I'm
> > smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing =
I can
> > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> >
>=20
> ok
>=20
> > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
> > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar =
references
> > just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
> > support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail =
account
> just
> > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the =
useless
> > support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID =
which
> > is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks =
for
> > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of =
"which of
> > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell =
us all
> > your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
> > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to =
screw
> > people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name =
is
> > really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the =
whole
> > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> >
> > But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've =
taken
> > such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me =
click
> > inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> > intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You =
really
> do
> > care!
> >
>=20
> Yes - we do.
>=20
> > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
> >
> > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
> >
> > Neil Obstat
>=20
>=20
>=20

[Mike Brannigan [MSFT]]

Sorry David, is there a problem with my response ?

I have addressed the direct issue, confirmed that the KB does provide at
least a valid result on the search criteria he used, have requested his
feedback where he saw a deficiency, have asked for qualification of which
pages he has trouble with and have offered solutions or areas for him to
additionally investigate.
And all of this in the face of a fairly hostile rant.

Did I miss something?

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"David Candy" > wrote in message
...
You know you aren't going to be picked anytime soon as a case study on how
to deal with irate customers sucessfully.

--
http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm
http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Candy
http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message
...
> Neil,
>
> Comments inline
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights
>
> Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> newsgroups
>
> "Neil Obstat" > wrote in
> message 48.16...
> > Hello, Microsoft.
> >
> > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am
> > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > products.
> >
>
> This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
> support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
>
> > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated graphics
in
> > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved to
> > the selected location."
>
> Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
>
> Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to
that
> contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions to
> creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.
>
> Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the
> content embedded.
>
> On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better
> results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file)
>
> > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I looked
> for
> > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what the
> > error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make
> sure
> > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
> > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet
Explorer
> > 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck.
> > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge
base.
> > That would be helpful.
> >
>
> The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> http://support.microsoft.com/
> Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
> Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search
> topics-
> enter
> "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing
> and Using ... The exact phrase entered
>
> Produces one result
> http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589
>
> Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??
>
>
> > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops, hang
> > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS IN
> > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d
> location"
> > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the
page,
> > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge base,
> > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that
was
> > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original
> question
> > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean, I
> > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to
> save
> > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it
doesn't
> > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having
broken
> > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken
it,
> > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> >
>
> Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I
found.
>
> > And then I tried to ask you that.
> >
> > I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to
get
> > to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at your
> > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved completely
> > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company.
But
> > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You
told
> > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> >
>
> The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up to
> Dell to provide you with support.
>
> > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No, Dell
> did
> > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell? Dell
> > doesn't know what you've done.
> >
>
> Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to
technical
> data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an OEM
> machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the only
> ones who can provide the required support.
> Dell do and can know "what we have done"
>
> > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux. Other
> > people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I
might've
> > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such
> > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big
game
> > in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal
with
> > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
> > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I
buy
> > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would
like
> > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I
> cannot
> > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
> >
>
> You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems
or
> non at all.
> You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they
> ship.
> See comment above about OEM support.
> If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements
(including)
> choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
>
> > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I
decided
> > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed
it.
> > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version.
Meaning
> > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There was
a
> > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> >
>
> Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.
>
> > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At this
> > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
> > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you
> great
> > jolly megalith, you.
> >
> > I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours
every
> > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on a
> > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> >
>
>
> > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer"
> > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of "Windows
> > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you don't
> > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> >
> > But...I bought it in this country.
> >
> > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again.
> > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay.
> >
>
> Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ?
Was
> it a grey import ?
> If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem
> (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where
you
> are.)
>
> > I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went
> through
> > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the
> phone!
> > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to Dell
> > for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
> >
>
> Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and
> possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to
> provide the necessary support on the product.
> They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and also
> to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
>
> > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your
"communities"
> > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full of
> > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like most
of
> > your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a
> > question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can figure
> > out the answer to that.
> >
> Do you mean here
> http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
> or
> http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx
>
> Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
>
> > I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups.
Ninety
> > trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden,
cookie-
> > filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, doesn't
> > get much more modern than a newsgroup.
>
> What would you prefer?
> This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that
the
> technical community operate in.
>
> > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use
newsgroups.
> > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve
technical
> > help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for a
> > computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your
> > software.
> >
>
> We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide
> support for their OEM supplied products.
>
> There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
> advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
>
> > Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
> > Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour
before.
> > Elegant.
> >
>
> Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and
then
> may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services.
The
> web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.
>
> > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! "Coming
> > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to
use
> > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to
protect
> > essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week,
when
> > the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take
out
> > a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable
> personal
> > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even
> > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me
> > bothering you with my little problems.
> >
>
> If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made
no
> effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or
> otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
>
> > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive "is
> > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay because
> I'm
> > smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I
can
> > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> >
>
> ok
>
> > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
> > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar
references
> > just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
> > support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account
> just
> > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the
useless
> > support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID
which
> > is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for
> > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which of
> > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us
all
> > your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
> > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to
screw
> > people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is
> > really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the
whole
> > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> >
> > But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've
taken
> > such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me click
> > inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> > intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You really
> do
> > care!
> >
>
> Yes - we do.
>
> > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
> >
> > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
> >
> > Neil Obstat
>
>
>

[David Banks]

Hi

Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was intended I do
think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the Windows
product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM.

All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the basics of
the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have never yet
had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both Microsoft
and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how anybody
without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing'
atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.

There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will probably turn
out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as has been
done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib answers on how
stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the response by
Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, you
know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, since when
has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go elsewhere' to
the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a bit 'high
minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that the
public have of the organisation.

I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out the
obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message 'read my
enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked'

A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and energy) but
I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then.

Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is not
included on the standard XP installation!!!!

I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own
Customer
Services Handbook:-

'Dear Neil

I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex and
navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be frustrating
but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the answers to
your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope that
we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very frustrating
problem to you.
Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any further
queries or problems.'

David


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message
...
> Neil,
>
> Comments inline
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights
>
> Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> newsgroups
>
> "Neil Obstat" > wrote in
> message 48.16...
> > Hello, Microsoft.
> >
> > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am
> > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > products.
> >

"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message
...
> Neil,
>
> Comments inline
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights
>
> Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> newsgroups
>
> "Neil Obstat" > wrote in
> message 48.16...
> > Hello, Microsoft.
> >
> > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am
> > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > products.
> >
>
> This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
> support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
>
> > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated graphics
in
> > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved to
> > the selected location."
>
> Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
>
> Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to
that
> contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions to
> creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.
>
> Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the
> content embedded.
>
> On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better
> results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file)
>
> > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I looked
> for
> > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what the
> > error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make
> sure
> > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
> > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet
Explorer
> > 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck.
> > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge
base.
> > That would be helpful.
> >
>
> The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> http://support.microsoft.com/
> Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
> Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search
> topics-
> enter
> "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing
> and Using ... The exact phrase entered
>
> Produces one result
> http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589
>
> Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??
>
>
> > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops, hang
> > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS IN
> > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d
> location"
> > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the
page,
> > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge base,
> > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that
was
> > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original
> question
> > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean, I
> > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to
> save
> > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it
doesn't
> > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having
broken
> > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken
it,
> > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> >
>
> Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I
found.
>
> > And then I tried to ask you that.
> >
> > I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to
get
> > to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at your
> > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved completely
> > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company.
But
> > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You
told
> > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> >
>
> The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up to
> Dell to provide you with support.
>
> > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No, Dell
> did
> > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell? Dell
> > doesn't know what you've done.
> >
>
> Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to
technical
> data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an OEM
> machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the only
> ones who can provide the required support.
> Dell do and can know "what we have done"
>
> > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux. Other
> > people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I
might've
> > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such
> > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big
game
> > in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal
with
> > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
> > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I
buy
> > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would
like
> > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I
> cannot
> > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
> >
>
> You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems
or
> non at all.
> You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they
> ship.
> See comment above about OEM support.
> If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements
(including)
> choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
>
> > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I
decided
> > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed
it.
> > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version.
Meaning
> > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There was
a
> > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> >
>
> Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.
>
> > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At this
> > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
> > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you
> great
> > jolly megalith, you.
> >
> > I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours
every
> > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on a
> > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> >
>
>
> > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer"
> > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of "Windows
> > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you don't
> > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> >
> > But...I bought it in this country.
> >
> > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again.
> > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay.
> >
>
> Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ?
Was
> it a grey import ?
> If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem
> (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where
you
> are.)
>
> > I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went
> through
> > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the
> phone!
> > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to Dell
> > for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
> >
>
> Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and
> possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to
> provide the necessary support on the product.
> They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and also
> to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
>
> > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your
"communities"
> > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full of
> > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like most
of
> > your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a
> > question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can figure
> > out the answer to that.
> >
> Do you mean here
> http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
> or
> http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx
>
> Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
>
> > I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups.
Ninety
> > trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden,
cookie-
> > filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, doesn't
> > get much more modern than a newsgroup.
>
> What would you prefer?
> This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that
the
> technical community operate in.
>
> > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use
newsgroups.
> > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve
technical
> > help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for a
> > computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your
> > software.
> >
>
> We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide
> support for their OEM supplied products.
>
> There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
> advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
>
> > Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
> > Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour
before.
> > Elegant.
> >
>
> Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and
then
> may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services.
The
> web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.
>
> > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! "Coming
> > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to
use
> > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to
protect
> > essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week,
when
> > the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take
out
> > a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable
> personal
> > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even
> > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me
> > bothering you with my little problems.
> >
>
> If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made
no
> effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or
> otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
>
> > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive "is
> > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay because
> I'm
> > smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I
can
> > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> >
>
> ok
>
> > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
> > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar
references
> > just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
> > support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account
> just
> > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the
useless
> > support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID
which
> > is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for
> > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which of
> > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us
all
> > your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
> > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to
screw
> > people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is
> > really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the
whole
> > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> >
> > But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've
taken
> > such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me click
> > inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> > intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You really
> do
> > care!
> >
>
> Yes - we do.
>
> > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
> >
> > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
> >
> > Neil Obstat
>
>
>

[David Candy]

Yes. You responded how a technical person would respond. Technically =
correct. But a customer relationship nightmare.

http://www.jjlauderbaugh.com/Articles/iratecustomers.html
http://www.sunherald.com/mld/tallahassee/business/columnists/5552399.htm
(unfortunately most links want cash)

It's not about being right. Being right is BAD.
--=20
http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm
http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Candy
http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message =
...
> Sorry David, is there a problem with my response ?
>=20
> I have addressed the direct issue, confirmed that the KB does provide =
at
> least a valid result on the search criteria he used, have requested =
his
> feedback where he saw a deficiency, have asked for qualification of =
which
> pages he has trouble with and have offered solutions or areas for him =
to
> additionally investigate.
> And all of this in the face of a fairly hostile rant.
>=20
> Did I miss something?
>=20
> --=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Mike
> --
> Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>=20
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights
>=20
> Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> newsgroups
>=20
> "David Candy" > wrote in message
> ...
> You know you aren't going to be picked anytime soon as a case study on =
how
> to deal with irate customers sucessfully.
>=20
> --=20
> http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm
> http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> David Candy
> http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in =
message
> ...
> > Neil,
> >
> > Comments inline
> >
> > --=20
> > Regards,
> >
> > Mike
> > --
> > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> >
> > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> > rights
> >
> > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> > newsgroups
> >
> > "Neil Obstat" > wrote =
in
> > message 48.16...
> > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > >
> > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell =
I am
> > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > > products.
> > >
> >
> > This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to =
provide
> > support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
> >
> > > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated =
graphics
> in
> > > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be =
saved to
> > > the selected location."
> >
> > Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
> >
> > Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> > This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving =
to
> that
> > contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have =
permissions to
> > creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.
> >
> > Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all =
the
> > content embedded.
> >
> > On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced =
better
> > results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file)
> >
> > > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I =
looked
> > for
> > > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of =
what the
> > > error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to =
make
> > sure
> > > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
> > > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet
> Explorer
> > > 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such =
luck.
> > > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your =
knowledge
> base.
> > > That would be helpful.
> > >
> >
> > The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> > If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> > http://support.microsoft.com/
> > Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
> > Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft =
Search
> > topics-
> > enter
> > "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution =
containing
> > and Using ... The exact phrase entered
> >
> > Produces one result
> > http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=3D235589
> >
> > Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you =
??
> >
> >
> > > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The =
"selecte(oops, hang
> > > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I =
WAS IN
> > > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d
> > location"
> > > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save =
the
> page,
> > > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge =
base,
> > > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update =
that
> was
> > > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original
> > question
> > > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I =
mean, I
> > > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being =
able to
> > save
> > > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it
> doesn't
> > > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having
> broken
> > > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had =
broken
> it,
> > > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> > >
> >
> > Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I
> found.
> >
> > > And then I tried to ask you that.
> > >
> > > I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm =
supposed to
> get
> > > to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at =
your
> > > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved =
completely
> > > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine =
company.
> But
> > > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. =
You
> told
> > > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> > >
> >
> > The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> > It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is =
up to
> > Dell to provide you with support.
> >
> > > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No, =
Dell
> > did
> > > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell? =
Dell
> > > doesn't know what you've done.
> > >
> >
> > Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to
> technical
> > data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is =
an OEM
> > machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the =
only
> > ones who can provide the required support.
> > Dell do and can know "what we have done"
> >
> > > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux. =
Other
> > > people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I
> might've
> > > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some =
such
> > > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the =
big
> game
> > > in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a =
deal
> with
> > > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
> > > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So =
if I
> buy
> > > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I =
would
> like
> > > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, =
I
> > cannot
> > > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
> > >
> >
> > You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing =
systems
> or
> > non at all.
> > You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs =
they
> > ship.
> > See comment above about OEM support.
> > If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements
> (including)
> > choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
> >
> > > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I
> decided
> > > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I =
installed
> it.
> > > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version.
> Meaning
> > > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. =
There was
> a
> > > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> > >
> >
> > Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product =3D support by =
OEM.
> >
> > > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At =
this
> > > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense =
of
> > > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, =
you
> > great
> > > jolly megalith, you.
> > >
> > > I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at =
yours
> every
> > > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or =
occasionally on a
> > > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> > >
> >
> >
> > > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet =
Explorer"
> > > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of =
"Windows
> > > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you =
don't
> > > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> > >
> > > But...I bought it in this country.
> > >
> > > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once =
again.
> > > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." =
Okay.
> > >
> >
> > Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you =
reside ?
> Was
> > it a grey import ?
> > If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a =
problem
> > (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state =
where
> you
> > are.)
> >
> > > I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I =
went
> > through
> > > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on =
the
> > phone!
> > > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go =
to Dell
> > > for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
> > >
> >
> > Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines =
and
> > possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel =
to
> > provide the necessary support on the product.
> > They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve =
and also
> > to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
> >
> > > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your
> "communities"
> > > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page =
full of
> > > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like =
most
> of
> > > your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to =
submit a
> > > question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can =
figure
> > > out the answer to that.
> > >
> > Do you mean here
> > http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
> > or
> > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx
> >
> > Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
> >
> > > I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups.
> Ninety
> > > trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden,
> cookie-
> > > filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, =
doesn't
> > > get much more modern than a newsgroup.
> >
> > What would you prefer?
> > This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community =
that
> the
> > technical community operate in.
> >
> > > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > > are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use
> newsgroups.
> > > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve
> technical
> > > help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or =
for a
> > > computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of =
your
> > > software.
> > >
> >
> > We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs =
provide
> > support for their OEM supplied products.
> >
> > There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well =
as
> > advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
> >
> > > Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP =
Support
> > > Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour
> before.
> > > Elegant.
> > >
> >
> > Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes =
and
> then
> > may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support =
services.
> The
> > web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.
> >
> > > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! =
"Coming
> > > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how =
to
> use
> > > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to
> protect
> > > essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last =
week,
> when
> > > the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and =
take
> out
> > > a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable
> > personal
> > > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't =
even
> > > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't =
need me
> > > bothering you with my little problems.
> > >
> >
> > If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you =
made
> no
> > effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup =
or
> > otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
> >
> > > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the =
drive "is
> > > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay =
because
> > I'm
> > > smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like =
knowing I
> can
> > > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> > >
> >
> > ok
> >
> > > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, =
you
> > > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar
> references
> > > just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
> > > support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail =
account
> > just
> > > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the
> useless
> > > support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport =
ID
> which
> > > is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks =
for
> > > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of =
"which of
> > > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell =
us
> all
> > > your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
> > > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that =
to
> screw
> > > people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name =
is
> > > really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in =
the
> whole
> > > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> > >
> > > But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad =
you've
> taken
> > > such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me =
click
> > > inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> > > intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You =
really
> > do
> > > care!
> > >
> >
> > Yes - we do.
> >
> > > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
> > >
> > > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
> > >
> > > Neil Obstat
> >
> >
> >
>=20
>=20

[rifleman]

In ,
David Banks > typed:
> Hi
>
Snip
> Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program
> is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!

Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?


--
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk

[Ted]

"David Banks" > wrote in message =
...

<snipped>

> There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will probably =
turn
> out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as has =
been
> done in this case

Gently on maybe one account, but not on the MS/MVP supporters like the =
bint "Amethyst", who has no problem railing the meekest of help seekers =
to becoming "mindless PC ****cases"! At least Mike just tells them they =
are basically stuck in a "****case"!

<snipped long remainder>

[Kadaitcha Man]

Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:
> Sorry David, is there a problem with my response ?
>
> I have addressed the direct issue, confirmed that the KB does provide
> at least a valid result on the search criteria he used, have
> requested his feedback where he saw a deficiency, have asked for
> qualification of which pages he has trouble with and have offered
> solutions or areas for him to additionally investigate.

You also said:

> And all of this in the face of a fairly hostile rant.

Yes, yours. Oh, and let's not forget Amethyst's self-congratulatory
masturbation, eh...

"Congratulations, Michael! You deserve a medal for making it all the way to
the end of that diatribe without calling it a 'moron', '****wit', 'cretin',
'idiot'"

Nice, eh. Or do you not see at all what just happened? No doubt you don't
see it, so I'll spell it out for you. Amethyst is empathising with you and
doing it using terms like 'moron', '****wit', 'cretin', 'idiot' to refer to
a Microsoft customer. Nice, eh.

Let me put it to you succinctly. Amethyst is suggesting that Microsoft
customers are one or more of 'moron', '****wit', 'cretin', 'idiot'. Those
sentiments were elicited from whatever the mad cow is pleased to call her
mind based upon your public post.

> Did I miss something?

Yes, you did. It's called customer satisfaction. Get this through your thick
skull, dumb****... it doesn't matter jack **** to the OP that it's an OEM
version and that the OEM is responsible for support. It matters to the OP
that Windows XP is a Microsoft product. Your average user is not going to
give a tinker's curse for your damned OEM rules. All he knows is that he has
Microsoft Windows XP and it does not work. Do you get that, ****face? Hmm?
He has Microsoft Windows XP and it does not work.

The absolute very least you should have done was to completely ignore your
****ed up OEM "rules" and actually help the guy. You know? Customer
relationship? But all you really did was this...

> It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is
> up to Dell to provide you with support.

> We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs
> provide support for their OEM supplied products.

What a marvellous advertisement for Microsoft -- "You got screwed, we don't
give a ****." And don't go saying he isn't a Microsoft customer, because he
is, whether you like to admit it or not.

I'll tell you something else, you ****tard. Companies generally spend 10-12
times more money on attracting new customers than they do on keeping
existing ones. A happy customer will make a good recommendation to seven or
eight others. A customer who has been ****ed off by a snot-nosed prat, like
you for example, will go off and tell, on avarage, 10-12 people of his bad
experience. The hilarious part of all this is, you ****ed up big time in
front of thousands in a public forum. Well done. If I were your boss, you'd
be frog-marched off to a retraining camp, but I'm not, so it's your lucky
day.

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

[Kadaitcha Man]

David Candy wrote:
> Yes. You responded how a technical person would respond. Technically
> correct. But a customer relationship nightmare.

I didn't quite put it like that, but you are correct.

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

[David Candy]

No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing amount =
of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The sell genuine =
MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except the company =
agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A large company pays =
least and probably doesn't supply a disk.

But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with new =
systems.

--=20
http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm
http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Candy
http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros
---------------------------------------------------------------
"rifleman" > wrote in message =
...
> In ,
> David Banks > typed:
> > Hi
> >
> Snip
> > Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program
> > is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!
>=20
> Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
> Google is your Friend
> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
> www.gbpcomputing.co.uk
>=20
>=20
>=20

[Kadaitcha Man]

Ted" <"""""""""""""" wrote:

> Gently on maybe one account, but not on the MS/MVP supporters like
> the bint "Amethyst", who has no problem railing the meekest of help
> seekers to becoming "mindless PC ****cases"! At least Mike just tells
> them they are basically stuck in a "****case"!

Don't forget that the imaginary personality Amethyst projects into these
groups is the only one she has.

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

[rifleman]

In ,
David Candy > typed:
> No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing
> amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The sell
> genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except
> the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A
> large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk.
>
> But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with
> new systems.
>
>> In ,
>> David Banks > typed:
>>> Hi
>>>
>> Snip
>>> Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program
>>> is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!
>>
>> Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?
>>
>>
>> --
>> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
>> Google is your Friend
>> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
>> www.gbpcomputing.co.uk

Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by default (or
should be....)

--
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk

[David Candy]

It is unless the OEM removed it (unknown to me - never heard of this)

--=20
http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm
http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Candy
http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros
---------------------------------------------------------------
"rifleman" > wrote in message =
...
> In ,
> David Candy > typed:
> > No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing
> > amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The =
sell
> > genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except
> > the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A
> > large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk.
> >
> > But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with
> > new systems.
> >
> >> In ,
> >> David Banks > typed:
> >>> Hi
> >>>
> >> Snip
> >>> Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup =
program
> >>> is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!
> >>
> >> Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
> >> Google is your Friend
> >> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
> >> www.gbpcomputing.co.uk
>=20
> Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by =
default (or
> should be....)
>=20
> --=20
> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
> Google is your Friend
> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
> www.gbpcomputing.co.uk
>=20
>=20
>=20

[Mike Brannigan [MSFT]]

My resposne was certainly not menat to be glib or ridiculing the poster.

Looking at the reponses in (without the original poster text):--

This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
---- A comment on how the poster expects to encourage response with an
derogatory opening line

Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
---- Requesting "which" pages are problematic so I could see what the
problem was

Are you Save As. Web page complete.
This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to that
contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions to
creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.

Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the
content embedded.

On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better
results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file)
---- options and questiosn about what the poster is doing and possible
alternatives and issues that might arise

The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
If you go to the Knowledgebase at
http://support.microsoft.com/
Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search
topics-
enter
"The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing
and Using ... The exact phrase entered

Produces one result
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589

Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??

---- A precise description of how to search for the error text he had and
the return KB article - question of is this relevant to his problem.

Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I found.
---- further request for information on what pages are problematic (since
the original poster is beinging to "rant" and did not provide any examples
of where the problem occured)

The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
---- Discussion of OEM support for OEM products

Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS
---- Further discussion of OEM support for OEM products

You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems or
non at all.
You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they
ship.
See comment above about OEM support.
If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements (including)
choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
---- The OP was now "ranting" about Linux and not being able to purchase a
PC without Windows - I pointed out he has free choice of supplier and their
product offerings.

Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.
---- Reinteration of OEM support issue (OP "rant"continues)

Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ? Was
it a grey import ?
If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem
(please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where you
are.)
---- OP goes off topic about Encarta and PID issues. Asked for
qualification of purchase status.

Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and
possibly modify or augment. ...<snip>
---- Further reinteration of OEM support issue (OP "rant"continues)

Do you mean here
http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
or
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx

Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
---- OP mentioned Communities issues and requirement for "technical skill"
in using them

What would you prefer?
This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that the
technical community operate in.
---- OP commmented that newsgrpups were not modern - I requesed feeback and
commented on universal reach of newsgroups.

We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide
support for their OEM supplied products.
---- OP "rant" back on OEM and support - Further reinteration of OEM support
issue

There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
---- OP stated level of "technology" require to access newsgroups.

Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and then
may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services. The
web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.
---- We provide links in many directions - basic web design good practice.

If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made no
effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or
otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
---- OP claimed article on Backup was too late for him. I pointed out that
Backup of his important data was his concern.

Yes - we do.
---- yes we care enough to spend our own time in these groups trying to help
out people, and offer service and support to them for the products they
purchase.


I stand by my repsond made in the face of a hostile rant.

To address your particular comments:-

You mention a "buck passing" culture that you claim "originates at
Microsoft". This is regarding OEM product. We are not passing the buck -
you get an OEM Windows at a greatly reduce cost compared to the retail
product - due to the fact that you are directly supported by Microsoft.
OEMs are also the only ones who know how and on what they installed the OS
and any other modifications settings add-ons they have included, so are best
placed to provide the initial support.

At no point did I say "you don't like it, you know what you can do'"
I did rightly suggest that as a consumer he has choice of vendor to purchase
his PC from.
People purchase complex and expensive products all the time - there usually
do this in an informed manner.

My mention of backup was related to his claim of loosing a years worth of
important data (no reason given) - the built in backup facility is included
in the retail installation of Windows XP or is usually in the VALUEADD
folder on a supplied OEM CD. If the user had been concerned about backing
up his data there are also a myriad third party products out there (consumer
choice at work) which he could have used over a year ago. If he did not
know or understand about backup he could have posted here too etc.

But, thank you David for your feedback on my repsonse to the original
poster.
--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"David Banks" > wrote in message
...
> Hi
>
> Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was intended I
do
> think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the Windows
> product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM.
>
> All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the basics of
> the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have never yet
> had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both Microsoft
> and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how anybody
> without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing'
> atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.
>
> There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will probably turn
> out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as has been
> done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib answers on
how
> stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the response by
> Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, you
> know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, since
when
> has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go elsewhere'
to
> the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a bit
'high
> minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that the
> public have of the organisation.
>
> I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out the
> obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message 'read
my
> enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked'
>
> A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and energy)
but
> I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then.
>
> Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is not
> included on the standard XP installation!!!!
>
> I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own
> Customer
> Services Handbook:-
>
> 'Dear Neil
>
> I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
> information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex and
> navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be
frustrating
> but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the answers
to
> your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
> Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope that
> we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very frustrating
> problem to you.
> Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any further
> queries or problems.'
>
> David
>
>
> "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Neil,
> >
> > Comments inline
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> >
> > Mike
> > --
> > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> >
> > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> > rights
> >
> > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> > newsgroups
> >
> > "Neil Obstat" > wrote in
> > message 48.16...
> > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > >
> > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I
am
> > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > > products.
> > >
>
> "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Neil,
> >
> > Comments inline
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> >
> > Mike
> > --
> > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> >
> > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> > rights
> >
> > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> > newsgroups
> >
> > "Neil Obstat" > wrote in
> > message 48.16...
> > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > >
> > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I
am
> > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > > products.
> > >
> >
> > This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
> > support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
> >
> > > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated
graphics
> in
> > > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved
to
> > > the selected location."
> >
> > Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
> >
> > Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> > This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to
> that
> > contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions
to
> > creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.
> >
> > Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the
> > content embedded.
> >
> > On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced
better
> > results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file)
> >
> > > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I
looked
> > for
> > > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what
the
> > > error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make
> > sure
> > > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
> > > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet
> Explorer
> > > 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck.
> > > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge
> base.
> > > That would be helpful.
> > >
> >
> > The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> > If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> > http://support.microsoft.com/
> > Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
> > Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search
> > topics-
> > enter
> > "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing
> > and Using ... The exact phrase entered
> >
> > Produces one result
> > http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589
> >
> > Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??
> >
> >
> > > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops,
hang
> > > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS
IN
> > > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d
> > location"
> > > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the
> page,
> > > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge
base,
> > > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that
> was
> > > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original
> > question
> > > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean,
I
> > > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to
> > save
> > > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it
> doesn't
> > > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having
> broken
> > > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken
> it,
> > > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> > >
> >
> > Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I
> found.
> >
> > > And then I tried to ask you that.
> > >
> > > I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to
> get
> > > to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at
your
> > > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved
completely
> > > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company.
> But
> > > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You
> told
> > > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> > >
> >
> > The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> > It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up
to
> > Dell to provide you with support.
> >
> > > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No,
Dell
> > did
> > > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell?
Dell
> > > doesn't know what you've done.
> > >
> >
> > Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to
> technical
> > data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an
OEM
> > machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the
only
> > ones who can provide the required support.
> > Dell do and can know "what we have done"
> >
> > > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux.
Other
> > > people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I
> might've
> > > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such
> > > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big
> game
> > > in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal
> with
> > > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
> > > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I
> buy
> > > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would
> like
> > > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I
> > cannot
> > > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
> > >
> >
> > You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing
systems
> or
> > non at all.
> > You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they
> > ship.
> > See comment above about OEM support.
> > If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements
> (including)
> > choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
> >
> > > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I
> decided
> > > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed
> it.
> > > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version.
> Meaning
> > > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There
was
> a
> > > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> > >
> >
> > Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.
> >
> > > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At
this
> > > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
> > > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you
> > great
> > > jolly megalith, you.
> > >
> > > I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours
> every
> > > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on
a
> > > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> > >
> >
> >
> > > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer"
> > > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of
"Windows
> > > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you
don't
> > > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> > >
> > > But...I bought it in this country.
> > >
> > > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again.
> > > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay.
> > >
> >
> > Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ?
> Was
> > it a grey import ?
> > If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem
> > (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where
> you
> > are.)
> >
> > > I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went
> > through
> > > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the
> > phone!
> > > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to
Dell
> > > for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
> > >
> >
> > Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and
> > possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to
> > provide the necessary support on the product.
> > They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and
also
> > to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
> >
> > > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your
> "communities"
> > > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full
of
> > > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like
most
> of
> > > your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a
> > > question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can
figure
> > > out the answer to that.
> > >
> > Do you mean here
> > http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
> > or
> > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx
> >
> > Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
> >
> > > I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups.
> Ninety
> > > trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden,
> cookie-
> > > filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir,
doesn't
> > > get much more modern than a newsgroup.
> >
> > What would you prefer?
> > This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that
> the
> > technical community operate in.
> >
> > > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > > are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use
> newsgroups.
> > > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve
> technical
> > > help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for
a
> > > computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your
> > > software.
> > >
> >
> > We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs
provide
> > support for their OEM supplied products.
> >
> > There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
> > advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
> >
> > > Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
> > > Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour
> before.
> > > Elegant.
> > >
> >
> > Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and
> then
> > may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services.
> The
> > web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.
> >
> > > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped!
"Coming
> > > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to
> use
> > > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to
> protect
> > > essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week,
> when
> > > the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take
> out
> > > a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable
> > personal
> > > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even
> > > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me
> > > bothering you with my little problems.
> > >
> >
> > If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made
> no
> > effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or
> > otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
> >
> > > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive
"is
> > > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay
because
> > I'm
> > > smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I
> can
> > > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> > >
> >
> > ok
> >
> > > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
> > > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar
> references
> > > just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
> > > support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account
> > just
> > > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the
> useless
> > > support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID
> which
> > > is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for
> > > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which
of
> > > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us
> all
> > > your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
> > > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to
> screw
> > > people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is
> > > really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the
> whole
> > > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> > >
> > > But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've
> taken
> > > such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me
click
> > > inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> > > intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You
really
> > do
> > > care!
> > >
> >
> > Yes - we do.
> >
> > > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
> > >
> > > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
> > >
> > > Neil Obstat
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Will Denny]

"rifleman" > wrote in message =
...
> In ,
> David Candy > typed:
> > No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing
> > amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The =
sell
> > genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except
> > the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A
> > large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk.
> >
> > But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with
> > new systems.
> >
> >> In ,
> >> David Banks > typed:
> >>> Hi
> >>>
> >> Snip
> >>> Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup =
program
> >>> is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!
> >>
> >> Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
> >> Google is your Friend
> >> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
> >> www.gbpcomputing.co.uk
>=20
> Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by =
default (or
> should be....)
>=20
> --=20
> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
> Google is your Friend
> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
> www.gbpcomputing.co.uk

You don't seem to have the idea of what an OEM XP CD is. That =
particular OEM XP CD 'could' include all XP apps that are available on =
the 'upgrade' or full retail version. OTOH - that particular OEM XP CD =
'could' include nothing but the 'install' files. OEMs are allowed to =
include/exclude anything they like - unfortunately.

Will



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003

[rifleman]

Xref: kermit microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support:320724 microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics:121763 microsoft.public.win98.internet:23694

In ,
Will Denny > typed:
> "rifleman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In ,
>> David Candy > typed:
>>> No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing
>>> amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The
>>> sell
>>> genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except
>>> the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A
>>> large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk.
>>>
>>> But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with
>>> new systems.
>>>
>>>> In ,
>>>> David Banks > typed:
>>>>> Hi
>>>>>
>>>> Snip
>>>>> Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup
>>>>> program
>>>>> is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!
>>>>
>>>> Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
>>>> Google is your Friend
>>>> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
>>>> www.gbpcomputing.co.uk
>>
>> Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by
>> default (or
>> should be....)
>>
>> --
>> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
>> Google is your Friend
>> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
>> www.gbpcomputing.co.uk
>
> You don't seem to have the idea of what an OEM XP CD is. That
> particular OEM XP CD 'could' include all XP apps that are available
> on the 'upgrade' or full retail version. OTOH - that particular OEM
> XP CD 'could' include nothing but the 'install' files. OEMs are
> allowed to include/exclude anything they like - unfortunately.
>
> Will
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003

I'd be very surprised if vendor would dig around deep enough to remove the
backup utility - unless they also sell backup solutions ;-)

--
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk

[Mister Charlie]

"David Banks" > wrote in message
...

>
> I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own
> Customer
> Services Handbook:-
>
> 'Dear Neil
>
> I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
> information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex
and
> navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be
frustrating
> but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the
answers to
> your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
> Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope
that
> we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very
frustrating
> problem to you.
> Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any
further
> queries or problems.'
>
> David
>
Let me assure you that that sort of prepackaged PR drivel is JUST as
frustrating as the runaround the OP describes.

Mike gave a direct answer to both the OP's hostility (understandable
given MS's and OEM's lack of any real help) and to his problems. Seems
like a perfectly good post to me.

[Mister Charlie]

"rifleman" > wrote in message
...
> In ,
> David Banks > typed:
> > Hi
> >
> Snip
> > Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program
> > is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!
>
> Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?

Not necessarily. However, on my e-machine OEM XP install there IS no
backup function, it's not included!

>
>
> --
> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
> Google is your Friend
> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
> www.gbpcomputing.co.uk
>
>
>

[Ted]

"Kadaitcha Man" > wrote in message =
r.org...
Ted" <"""""""""""""" wrote:

> Gently on maybe one account, but not on the MS/MVP supporters like
> the bint "Amethyst", who has no problem railing the meekest of help
> seekers to becoming "mindless PC ****cases"! At least Mike just tells
> them they are basically stuck in a "****case"!

"Don't forget that the imaginary personality Amethyst projects into =
these
groups is the only one she has."

LOL!

How could we? The **** remind us all of that trait she has, ad nauseam!

[Testy]

Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have every
maker include a full CD.

Testy

"David Banks" > wrote in message
...
> Hi
>
> Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was intended I
do
> think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the Windows
> product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM.
>
> All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the basics of
> the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have never yet
> had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both Microsoft
> and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how anybody
> without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing'
> atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.
>
> There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will probably turn
> out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as has been
> done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib answers on
how
> stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the response by
> Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, you
> know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, since
when
> has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go elsewhere'
to
> the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a bit
'high
> minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that the
> public have of the organisation.
>
> I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out the
> obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message 'read
my
> enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked'
>
> A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and energy)
but
> I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then.
>
> Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is not
> included on the standard XP installation!!!!
>
> I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own
> Customer
> Services Handbook:-
>
> 'Dear Neil
>
> I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
> information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex and
> navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be
frustrating
> but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the answers
to
> your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
> Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope that
> we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very frustrating
> problem to you.
> Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any further
> queries or problems.'
>
> David
>
>
> "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Neil,
> >
> > Comments inline
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> >
> > Mike
> > --
> > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> >
> > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> > rights
> >
> > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> > newsgroups
> >
> > "Neil Obstat" > wrote in
> > message 48.16...
> > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > >
> > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I
am
> > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > > products.
> > >
>
> "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Neil,
> >
> > Comments inline
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> >
> > Mike
> > --
> > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> >
> > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> > rights
> >
> > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> > newsgroups
> >
> > "Neil Obstat" > wrote in
> > message 48.16...
> > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > >
> > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I
am
> > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > > products.
> > >
> >
> > This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
> > support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
> >
> > > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated
graphics
> in
> > > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved
to
> > > the selected location."
> >
> > Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
> >
> > Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> > This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to
> that
> > contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions
to
> > creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.
> >
> > Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the
> > content embedded.
> >
> > On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced
better
> > results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file)
> >
> > > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I
looked
> > for
> > > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what
the
> > > error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make
> > sure
> > > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
> > > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet
> Explorer
> > > 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck.
> > > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge
> base.
> > > That would be helpful.
> > >
> >
> > The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> > If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> > http://support.microsoft.com/
> > Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
> > Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search
> > topics-
> > enter
> > "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing
> > and Using ... The exact phrase entered
> >
> > Produces one result
> > http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589
> >
> > Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??
> >
> >
> > > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops,
hang
> > > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS
IN
> > > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d
> > location"
> > > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the
> page,
> > > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge
base,
> > > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that
> was
> > > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original
> > question
> > > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean,
I
> > > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to
> > save
> > > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it
> doesn't
> > > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having
> broken
> > > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken
> it,
> > > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> > >
> >
> > Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I
> found.
> >
> > > And then I tried to ask you that.
> > >
> > > I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to
> get
> > > to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at
your
> > > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved
completely
> > > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company.
> But
> > > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You
> told
> > > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> > >
> >
> > The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> > It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up
to
> > Dell to provide you with support.
> >
> > > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No,
Dell
> > did
> > > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell?
Dell
> > > doesn't know what you've done.
> > >
> >
> > Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to
> technical
> > data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an
OEM
> > machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the
only
> > ones who can provide the required support.
> > Dell do and can know "what we have done"
> >
> > > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux.
Other
> > > people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I
> might've
> > > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such
> > > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big
> game
> > > in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal
> with
> > > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
> > > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I
> buy
> > > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would
> like
> > > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I
> > cannot
> > > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
> > >
> >
> > You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing
systems
> or
> > non at all.
> > You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they
> > ship.
> > See comment above about OEM support.
> > If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements
> (including)
> > choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
> >
> > > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I
> decided
> > > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed
> it.
> > > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version.
> Meaning
> > > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There
was
> a
> > > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> > >
> >
> > Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.
> >
> > > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At
this
> > > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
> > > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you
> > great
> > > jolly megalith, you.
> > >
> > > I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours
> every
> > > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on
a
> > > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> > >
> >
> >
> > > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer"
> > > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of
"Windows
> > > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you
don't
> > > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> > >
> > > But...I bought it in this country.
> > >
> > > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again.
> > > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay.
> > >
> >
> > Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ?
> Was
> > it a grey import ?
> > If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem
> > (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where
> you
> > are.)
> >
> > > I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went
> > through
> > > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the
> > phone!
> > > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to
Dell
> > > for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
> > >
> >
> > Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and
> > possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to
> > provide the necessary support on the product.
> > They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and
also
> > to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
> >
> > > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your
> "communities"
> > > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full
of
> > > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like
most
> of
> > > your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a
> > > question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can
figure
> > > out the answer to that.
> > >
> > Do you mean here
> > http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
> > or
> > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx
> >
> > Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
> >
> > > I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups.
> Ninety
> > > trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden,
> cookie-
> > > filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir,
doesn't
> > > get much more modern than a newsgroup.
> >
> > What would you prefer?
> > This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that
> the
> > technical community operate in.
> >
> > > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > > are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use
> newsgroups.
> > > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve
> technical
> > > help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for
a
> > > computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your
> > > software.
> > >
> >
> > We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs
provide
> > support for their OEM supplied products.
> >
> > There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
> > advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
> >
> > > Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
> > > Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour
> before.
> > > Elegant.
> > >
> >
> > Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and
> then
> > may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services.
> The
> > web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.
> >
> > > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped!
"Coming
> > > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to
> use
> > > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to
> protect
> > > essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week,
> when
> > > the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take
> out
> > > a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable
> > personal
> > > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even
> > > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me
> > > bothering you with my little problems.
> > >
> >
> > If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made
> no
> > effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or
> > otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
> >
> > > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive
"is
> > > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay
because
> > I'm
> > > smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I
> can
> > > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> > >
> >
> > ok
> >
> > > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
> > > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar
> references
> > > just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
> > > support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account
> > just
> > > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the
> useless
> > > support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID
> which
> > > is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for
> > > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which
of
> > > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us
> all
> > > your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
> > > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to
> screw
> > > people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is
> > > really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the
> whole
> > > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> > >
> > > But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've
> taken
> > > such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me
click
> > > inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> > > intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You
really
> > do
> > > care!
> > >
> >
> > Yes - we do.
> >
> > > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
> > >
> > > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
> > >
> > > Neil Obstat
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 7/10/2003

[Will Denny]

> > You don't seem to have the idea of what an OEM XP CD is. That
> > particular OEM XP CD 'could' include all XP apps that are available
> > on the 'upgrade' or full retail version. OTOH - that particular OEM
> > XP CD 'could' include nothing but the 'install' files. OEMs are
> > allowed to include/exclude anything they like - unfortunately.
> >
> > Will
> I'd be very surprised if vendor would dig around deep enough to remove =
the
> backup utility - unless they also sell backup solutions ;-)

I'm never surprised as to what some of these OEMs do!!!!

Will



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003

[Will Denny]

A very good idea, Testy, but I'm not sure that MS would agree to that - =
a lot of cash can be generated by OEMs. MS, as any other, business has =
to make money... They are just about to allocate $10B dollars (US) to =
their share holders...

Will

"Testy" > wrote in message =
.. .
> Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have =
every
> maker include a full CD.
>=20
> Testy
>=20
> "David Banks" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi
> >
> > Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was =
intended I
> do
> > think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the =
Windows
> > product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM.
> >
> > All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the =
basics of
> > the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have =
never yet
> > had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both =
Microsoft
> > and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how =
anybody
> > without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing'
> > atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.
> >
> > There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will =
probably turn
> > out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as =
has been
> > done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib =
answers on
> how
> > stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the =
response by
> > Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, =
you
> > know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, =
since
> when
> > has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go =
elsewhere'
> to
> > the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a =
bit
> 'high
> > minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that =
the
> > public have of the organisation.
> >
> > I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out =
the
> > obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message =
'read
> my
> > enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked'
> >
> > A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and =
energy)
> but
> > I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then.
> >
> > Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program =
is not
> > included on the standard XP installation!!!!
> >
> > I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my =
own
> > Customer
> > Services Handbook:-
> >
> > 'Dear Neil
> >
> > I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
> > information you require. The Windows operating system is very =
complex and
> > navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be
> frustrating
> > but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the =
answers
> to
> > your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
> > Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and =
hope that
> > we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very =
frustrating
> > problem to you.
> > Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any =
further
> > queries or problems.'
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in =
message
> > ...
> > > Neil,
> > >
> > > Comments inline
> > >
> > > --
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > --
> > > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> > >
> > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers =
no
> > > rights
> > >
> > > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use =
these
> > > newsgroups
> > >
> > > "Neil Obstat" > =
wrote in
> > > message 48.16...
> > > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > > >
> > > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the =
hell I
> am
> > > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, =
worthless
> > > > products.
> > > >
> >
> > "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in =
message
> > ...
> > > Neil,
> > >
> > > Comments inline
> > >
> > > --
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > --
> > > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> > >
> > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers =
no
> > > rights
> > >
> > > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use =
these
> > > newsgroups
> > >
> > > "Neil Obstat" > =
wrote in
> > > message 48.16...
> > > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > > >
> > > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the =
hell I
> am
> > > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, =
worthless
> > > > products.
> > > >
> > >
> > > This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to =
provide
> > > support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
> > >
> > > > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated
> graphics
> > in
> > > > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be =
saved
> to
> > > > the selected location."
> > >
> > > Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
> > >
> > > Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> > > This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are =
saving to
> > that
> > > contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have =
permissions
> to
> > > creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.
> > >
> > > Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with =
all the
> > > content embedded.
> > >
> > > On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced
> better
> > > results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single =
file)
> > >
> > > > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > > > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I
> looked
> > > for
> > > > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of =
what
> the
> > > > error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked =
to make
> > > sure
> > > > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be =
present
> > > > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet
> > Explorer
> > > > 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such =
luck.
> > > > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your =
knowledge
> > base.
> > > > That would be helpful.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> > > If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> > > http://support.microsoft.com/
> > > Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
> > > Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft =
Search
> > > topics-
> > > enter
> > > "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution =
containing
> > > and Using ... The exact phrase entered
> > >
> > > Produces one result
> > > http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=3D235589
> > >
> > > Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you =
??
> > >
> > >
> > > > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The =
"selecte(oops,
> hang
> > > > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE =
I WAS
> IN
> > > > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, =
Microsoft!)d
> > > location"
> > > > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save =
the
> > page,
> > > > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your =
knowledge
> base,
> > > > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update =
that
> > was
> > > > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my =
original
> > > question
> > > > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I =
mean,
> I
> > > > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being =
able to
> > > save
> > > > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But =
it
> > doesn't
> > > > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, =
having
> > broken
> > > > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had =
broken
> > it,
> > > > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article =
I
> > found.
> > >
> > > > And then I tried to ask you that.
> > > >
> > > > I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm =
supposed to
> > get
> > > > to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative =
at
> your
> > > > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved
> completely
> > > > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine =
company.
> > But
> > > > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. =
You
> > told
> > > > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> > > It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it =
is up
> to
> > > Dell to provide you with support.
> > >
> > > > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? =
No,
> Dell
> > > did
> > > > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask =
Dell?
> Dell
> > > > doesn't know what you've done.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to
> > technical
> > > data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is =
an
> OEM
> > > machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are =
the
> only
> > > ones who can provide the required support.
> > > Dell do and can know "what we have done"
> > >
> > > > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like =
Linux.
> Other
> > > > people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I
> > might've
> > > > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or =
some such
> > > > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the =
big
> > game
> > > > in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a =
deal
> > with
> > > > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, =
but
> > > > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. =
So if I
> > buy
> > > > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I =
would
> > like
> > > > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that =
way, I
> > > cannot
> > > > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing
> systems
> > or
> > > non at all.
> > > You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs =
they
> > > ship.
> > > See comment above about OEM support.
> > > If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements
> > (including)
> > > choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
> > >
> > > > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So =
I
> > decided
> > > > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I =
installed
> > it.
> > > > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM =
version.
> > Meaning
> > > > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. =
There
> was
> > a
> > > > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product =3D support =
by OEM.
> > >
> > > > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. =
At
> this
> > > > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any =
sense of
> > > > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the =
world, you
> > > great
> > > > jolly megalith, you.
> > > >
> > > > I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at =
yours
> > every
> > > > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or =
occasionally on
> a
> > > > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet =
Explorer"
> > > > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of
> "Windows
> > > > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, =
please)...you
> don't
> > > > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> > > >
> > > > But...I bought it in this country.
> > > >
> > > > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once =
again.
> > > > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." =
Okay.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you =
reside ?
> > Was
> > > it a grey import ?
> > > If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a =
problem
> > > (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state =
where
> > you
> > > are.)
> > >
> > > > I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I =
went
> > > through
> > > > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on =
the
> > > phone!
> > > > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go =
to
> Dell
> > > > for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their =
machines and
> > > possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support =
personnel to
> > > provide the necessary support on the product.
> > > They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve =
and
> also
> > > to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
> > >
> > > > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your
> > "communities"
> > > > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page =
full
> of
> > > > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. =
Like
> most
> > of
> > > > your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to =
submit a
> > > > question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you =
can
> figure
> > > > out the answer to that.
> > > >
> > > Do you mean here
> > > http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
> > > or
> > > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx
> > >
> > > Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
> > >
> > > > I mean, there was a little bit of information on your =
newsgroups.
> > Ninety
> > > > trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, =
script-ridden,
> > cookie-
> > > > filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir,
> doesn't
> > > > get much more modern than a newsgroup.
> > >
> > > What would you prefer?
> > > This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community =
that
> > the
> > > technical community operate in.
> > >
> > > > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > > > are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use
> > newsgroups.
> > > > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve
> > technical
> > > > help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, =
or for
> a
> > > > computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of =
your
> > > > software.
> > > >
> > >
> > > We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs
> provide
> > > support for their OEM supplied products.
> > >
> > > There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as =
well as
> > > advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
> > >
> > > > Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP =
Support
> > > > Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an =
hour
> > before.
> > > > Elegant.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes =
and
> > then
> > > may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support =
services.
> > The
> > > web is not a linear construct people enter from various =
directions.
> > >
> > > > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped!
> "Coming
> > > > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains =
how to
> > use
> > > > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools =
to
> > protect
> > > > essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last =
week,
> > when
> > > > the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south =
and take
> > out
> > > > a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, =
irreplaceable
> > > personal
> > > > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I =
hadn't even
> > > > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't =
need me
> > > > bothering you with my little problems.
> > > >
> > >
> > > If you have lost a significant amount of important data because =
you made
> > no
> > > effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software =
(backup or
> > > otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
> > >
> > > > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the =
drive
> "is
> > > > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay
> because
> > > I'm
> > > > smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like =
knowing I
> > can
> > > > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> > > >
> > >
> > > ok
> > >
> > > > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, =
you
> > > > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar
> > references
> > > > just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you =
won't
> > > > support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail =
account
> > > just
> > > > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at =
the
> > useless
> > > > support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport =
ID
> > which
> > > > is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. =
Thanks for
> > > > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of =
"which
> of
> > > > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please =
tell us
> > all
> > > > your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one =
with
> > > > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use =
that to
> > screw
> > > > people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my =
name is
> > > > really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in =
the
> > whole
> > > > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> > > >
> > > > But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad =
you've
> > taken
> > > > such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have =
me
> click
> > > > inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> > > > intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. =
You
> really
> > > do
> > > > care!
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes - we do.
> > >
> > > > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very =
soul.
> > > >
> > > > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
> > > >
> > > > Neil Obstat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>=20
>=20
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 7/10/2003
>=20
>=20


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003

[Mike Brannigan [MSFT]]

"Testy" > wrote in message
.. .
> Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have
every
> maker include a full CD.

Testy,

Is that just force the OEM to provide a full white box disk OEM CD ROM; or
end the whole program of OEM product requiring OEM support and actually ship
a Retail CD?
If the later - would the market stand the increase in cost (passed onto the
consumer) for the support of all those millions and millions of OEM
customers now having to come to Microsoft ?

If just force the OEM CD ROM in the package with the PC - then interesting
idea.
--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"Testy" > wrote in message
.. .
> Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have
every
> maker include a full CD.
>
> Testy
>
> "David Banks" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi
> >
> > Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was intended I
> do
> > think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the Windows
> > product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM.
> >
> > All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the basics
of
> > the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have never
yet
> > had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both
Microsoft
> > and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how
anybody
> > without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing'
> > atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.
> >
> > There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will probably
turn
> > out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as has
been
> > done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib answers on
> how
> > stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the response by
> > Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, you
> > know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, since
> when
> > has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go
elsewhere'
> to
> > the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a bit
> 'high
> > minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that the
> > public have of the organisation.
> >
> > I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out the
> > obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message
'read
> my
> > enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked'
> >
> > A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and energy)
> but
> > I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then.
> >
> > Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is
not
> > included on the standard XP installation!!!!
> >
> > I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own
> > Customer
> > Services Handbook:-
> >
> > 'Dear Neil
> >
> > I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
> > information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex
and
> > navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be
> frustrating
> > but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the answers
> to
> > your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
> > Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope
that
> > we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very
frustrating
> > problem to you.
> > Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any
further
> > queries or problems.'
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message

> > ...
> > > Neil,
> > >
> > > Comments inline
> > >
> > > --
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > --
> > > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> > >
> > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> > > rights
> > >
> > > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> > > newsgroups
> > >
> > > "Neil Obstat" > wrote
in
> > > message 48.16...
> > > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > > >
> > > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I
> am
> > > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > > > products.
> > > >
> >
> > "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Neil,
> > >
> > > Comments inline
> > >
> > > --
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > --
> > > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> > >
> > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> > > rights
> > >
> > > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> > > newsgroups
> > >
> > > "Neil Obstat" > wrote
in
> > > message 48.16...
> > > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > > >
> > > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I
> am
> > > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > > > products.
> > > >
> > >
> > > This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
> > > support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
> > >
> > > > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated
> graphics
> > in
> > > > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be
saved
> to
> > > > the selected location."
> > >
> > > Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
> > >
> > > Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> > > This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to
> > that
> > > contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions
> to
> > > creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.
> > >
> > > Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all
the
> > > content embedded.
> > >
> > > On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced
> better
> > > results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file)
> > >
> > > > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > > > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I
> looked
> > > for
> > > > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what
> the
> > > > error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to
make
> > > sure
> > > > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
> > > > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet
> > Explorer
> > > > 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such
luck.
> > > > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge
> > base.
> > > > That would be helpful.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> > > If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> > > http://support.microsoft.com/
> > > Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
> > > Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft
Search
> > > topics-
> > > enter
> > > "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution
containing
> > > and Using ... The exact phrase entered
> > >
> > > Produces one result
> > > http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589
> > >
> > > Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??
> > >
> > >
> > > > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops,
> hang
> > > > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I
WAS
> IN
> > > > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d
> > > location"
> > > > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the
> > page,
> > > > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge
> base,
> > > > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update
that
> > was
> > > > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original
> > > question
> > > > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I
mean,
> I
> > > > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able
to
> > > save
> > > > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it
> > doesn't
> > > > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having
> > broken
> > > > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had
broken
> > it,
> > > > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I
> > found.
> > >
> > > > And then I tried to ask you that.
> > > >
> > > > I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed
to
> > get
> > > > to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at
> your
> > > > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved
> completely
> > > > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company.
> > But
> > > > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You
> > told
> > > > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> > > It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is
up
> to
> > > Dell to provide you with support.
> > >
> > > > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No,
> Dell
> > > did
> > > > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell?
> Dell
> > > > doesn't know what you've done.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to
> > technical
> > > data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an
> OEM
> > > machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the
> only
> > > ones who can provide the required support.
> > > Dell do and can know "what we have done"
> > >
> > > > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux.
> Other
> > > > people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I
> > might've
> > > > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some
such
> > > > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big
> > game
> > > > in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a
deal
> > with
> > > > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
> > > > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if
I
> > buy
> > > > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I
would
> > like
> > > > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I
> > > cannot
> > > > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing
> systems
> > or
> > > non at all.
> > > You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs
they
> > > ship.
> > > See comment above about OEM support.
> > > If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements
> > (including)
> > > choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
> > >
> > > > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I
> > decided
> > > > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I
installed
> > it.
> > > > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version.
> > Meaning
> > > > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There
> was
> > a
> > > > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.
> > >
> > > > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At
> this
> > > > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
> > > > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world,
you
> > > great
> > > > jolly megalith, you.
> > > >
> > > > I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours
> > every
> > > > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally
on
> a
> > > > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet
Explorer"
> > > > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of
> "Windows
> > > > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you
> don't
> > > > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> > > >
> > > > But...I bought it in this country.
> > > >
> > > > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once
again.
> > > > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country."
Okay.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside
?
> > Was
> > > it a grey import ?
> > > If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a
problem
> > > (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state
where
> > you
> > > are.)
> > >
> > > > I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went
> > > through
> > > > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the
> > > phone!
> > > > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to
> Dell
> > > > for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines
and
> > > possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel
to
> > > provide the necessary support on the product.
> > > They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and
> also
> > > to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
> > >
> > > > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your
> > "communities"
> > > > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full
> of
> > > > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like
> most
> > of
> > > > your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit
a
> > > > question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can
> figure
> > > > out the answer to that.
> > > >
> > > Do you mean here
> > > http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
> > > or
> > > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx
> > >
> > > Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
> > >
> > > > I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups.
> > Ninety
> > > > trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden,
> > cookie-
> > > > filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir,
> doesn't
> > > > get much more modern than a newsgroup.
> > >
> > > What would you prefer?
> > > This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community
that
> > the
> > > technical community operate in.
> > >
> > > > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > > > are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use
> > newsgroups.
> > > > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve
> > technical
> > > > help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or
for
> a
> > > > computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of
your
> > > > software.
> > > >
> > >
> > > We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs
> provide
> > > support for their OEM supplied products.
> > >
> > > There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
> > > advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
> > >
> > > > Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
> > > > Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour
> > before.
> > > > Elegant.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and
> > then
> > > may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services.
> > The
> > > web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.
> > >
> > > > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped!
> "Coming
> > > > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how
to
> > use
> > > > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to
> > protect
> > > > essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last
week,
> > when
> > > > the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and
take
> > out
> > > > a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable
> > > personal
> > > > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't
even
> > > > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need
me
> > > > bothering you with my little problems.
> > > >
> > >
> > > If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you
made
> > no
> > > effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup
or
> > > otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
> > >
> > > > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive
> "is
> > > > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay
> because
> > > I'm
> > > > smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing
I
> > can
> > > > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> > > >
> > >
> > > ok
> > >
> > > > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
> > > > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar
> > references
> > > > just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
> > > > support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail
account
> > > just
> > > > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the
> > useless
> > > > support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID
> > which
> > > > is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks
for
> > > > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of
"which
> of
> > > > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell
us
> > all
> > > > your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
> > > > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to
> > screw
> > > > people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name
is
> > > > really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the
> > whole
> > > > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> > > >
> > > > But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've
> > taken
> > > > such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me
> click
> > > > inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> > > > intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You
> really
> > > do
> > > > care!
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes - we do.
> > >
> > > > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
> > > >
> > > > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
> > > >
> > > > Neil Obstat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 7/10/2003
>
>

[Amethyst]

Will Denny wrote:
> Hi Cass
>
> I've stopped my attacks on MVPs - perhaps you could lower you
> language a tad.
>
> Will


Sorry Will? AFAIK, I wasn't attacking an MVP - I was attacking the moron who
sent the original rant (which didn't appear on my server) not Mike who's a
really good guy (rather like yourself) - there was no way I was attacking
him and I apologise to him unreservedly if he took it that way...



Cass

--
Cassandra
Card carrying member of the Fresh Start Club 'The Undead Are People
Too!'

Reply address is fake. Please send all praise, abuse, insults, bequests
of £1million to cassandra (at) craigy34 (dot) freeserve (dot) co (dot)
uk. Change the obvious to the obvious.
Private requests for assistance will not be acknowledged. Please post
all correspondence to the group so that all may benefit. Thank you.

[Graham]

"Mister Charlie" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David Banks" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >
> > I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own
> > Customer
> > Services Handbook:-
> >
> > 'Dear Neil
> >
> > I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
> > information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex
> and
> > navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be
> frustrating
> > but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the
> answers to
> > your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
> > Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope
> that
> > we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very
> frustrating
> > problem to you.
> > Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any
> further
> > queries or problems.'
> >
> > David
> >
> Let me assure you that that sort of prepackaged PR drivel is JUST as
> frustrating as the runaround the OP describes.
>
> Mike gave a direct answer to both the OP's hostility (understandable
> given MS's and OEM's lack of any real help) and to his problems. Seems
> like a perfectly good post to me.
>
>

It did not sound like a runaround from Microsoft, they ask for the serial
number, you give it, they say sorry, we do not support a product we did not
supply. Please go see the Original Equipment Manufacturer. This the reason
the OEM is $200 less than the retail version for home and $300 for pro.

[Mike Brannigan [MSFT]]

I knew you weren't talkin' about me :-)

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"Amethyst" > wrote in message
...
> Will Denny wrote:
> > Hi Cass
> >
> > I've stopped my attacks on MVPs - perhaps you could lower you
> > language a tad.
> >
> > Will
>
>
> Sorry Will? AFAIK, I wasn't attacking an MVP - I was attacking the moron
who
> sent the original rant (which didn't appear on my server) not Mike who's a
> really good guy (rather like yourself) - there was no way I was attacking
> him and I apologise to him unreservedly if he took it that way...
>
>
>
> Cass
>
> --
> Cassandra
> Card carrying member of the Fresh Start Club 'The Undead Are People
> Too!'
>
> Reply address is fake. Please send all praise, abuse, insults, bequests
> of £1million to cassandra (at) craigy34 (dot) freeserve (dot) co (dot)
> uk. Change the obvious to the obvious.
> Private requests for assistance will not be acknowledged. Please post
> all correspondence to the group so that all may benefit. Thank you.
>
>

[Gerry Cornell]

Mike

Do some OEM suppliers remove components? If yes then they could run the =
risk of a claim for damages for misrepresentation if they call it =
Windows XP etc by customers and court actions initiated by Trading =
Standards.=20

--=20

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message =
...
> "Testy" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and =
have
> every
> > maker include a full CD.
>=20
> Testy,
>=20
> Is that just force the OEM to provide a full white box disk OEM CD =
ROM; or
> end the whole program of OEM product requiring OEM support and =
actually ship
> a Retail CD?
> If the later - would the market stand the increase in cost (passed =
onto the
> consumer) for the support of all those millions and millions of OEM
> customers now having to come to Microsoft ?
>=20
> If just force the OEM CD ROM in the package with the PC - then =
interesting
> idea.
> --=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Mike
> --
> Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>=20
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights
>=20
> Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> newsgroups
>=20
> "Testy" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and =
have
> every
> > maker include a full CD.
> >
> > Testy
> >
> > "David Banks" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was =
intended I
> > do
> > > think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the =
Windows
> > > product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM.
> > >
> > > All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the =
basics
> of
> > > the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have =
never
> yet
> > > had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both
> Microsoft
> > > and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how
> anybody
> > > without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the =
'buck-passing'
> > > atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.
> > >
> > > There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will =
probably
> turn
> > > out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as =
has
> been
> > > done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib =
answers on
> > how
> > > stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the =
response by
> > > Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like =
it, you
> > > know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, =
since
> > when
> > > has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go
> elsewhere'
> > to
> > > the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a =
bit
> > 'high
> > > minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that =
the
> > > public have of the organisation.
> > >
> > > I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing =
out the
> > > obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the =
message
> 'read
> > my
> > > enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked'
> > >
> > > A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and =
energy)
> > but
> > > I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then.
> > >
> > > Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup =
program is
> not
> > > included on the standard XP installation!!!!
> > >
> > > I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my =
own
> > > Customer
> > > Services Handbook:-
> > >
> > > 'Dear Neil
> > >
> > > I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
> > > information you require. The Windows operating system is very =
complex
> and
> > > navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be
> > frustrating
> > > but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the =
answers
> > to
> > > your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
> > > Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and =
hope
> that
> > > we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very
> frustrating
> > > problem to you.
> > > Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any
> further
> > > queries or problems.'
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in =
message
>=20
> > > ...
> > > > Neil,
> > > >
> > > > Comments inline
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > --
> > > > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> > > >
> > > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers =
no
> > > > rights
> > > >
> > > > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use =
these
> > > > newsgroups
> > > >
> > > > "Neil Obstat" > =
wrote
> in
> > > > message =
48.16...
> > > > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the =
hell I
> > am
> > > > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, =
worthless
> > > > > products.
> > > > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in =
message
> > > ...
> > > > Neil,
> > > >
> > > > Comments inline
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > --
> > > > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> > > >
> > > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers =
no
> > > > rights
> > > >
> > > > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use =
these
> > > > newsgroups
> > > >
> > > > "Neil Obstat" > =
wrote
> in
> > > > message =
48.16...
> > > > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the =
hell I
> > am
> > > > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, =
worthless
> > > > > products.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to =
provide
> > > > support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
> > > >
> > > > > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated
> > graphics
> > > in
> > > > > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not =
be
> saved
> > to
> > > > > the selected location."
> > > >
> > > > Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
> > > >
> > > > Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> > > > This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are =
saving to
> > > that
> > > > contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have =
permissions
> > to
> > > > creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.
> > > >
> > > > Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with =
all
> the
> > > > content embedded.
> > > >
> > > > On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file =
produced
> > better
> > > > results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single =
file)
> > > >
> > > > > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > > > > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. =
I
> > looked
> > > > for
> > > > > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of =
what
> > the
> > > > > error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked =
to
> make
> > > > sure
> > > > > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be =
present
> > > > > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for =
Internet
> > > Explorer
> > > > > 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No =
such
> luck.
> > > > > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your =
knowledge
> > > base.
> > > > > That would be helpful.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> > > > If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> > > > http://support.microsoft.com/
> > > > Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge =
Base)
> > > > Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All =
Microsoft
> Search
> > > > topics-
> > > > enter
> > > > "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution
> containing
> > > > and Using ... The exact phrase entered
> > > >
> > > > Produces one result
> > > > http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=3D235589
> > > >
> > > > Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to =
you ??
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The =
"selecte(oops,
> > hang
> > > > > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face =
WHILE I
> WAS
> > IN
> > > > > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, =
Microsoft!)d
> > > > location"
> > > > > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to =
save the
> > > page,
> > > > > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your =
knowledge
> > base,
> > > > > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an =
update
> that
> > > was
> > > > > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my =
original
> > > > question
> > > > > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? =
I
> mean,
> > I
> > > > > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being =
able
> to
> > > > save
> > > > > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. =
But it
> > > doesn't
> > > > > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, =
having
> > > broken
> > > > > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had
> broken
> > > it,
> > > > > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB =
article I
> > > found.
> > > >
> > > > > And then I tried to ask you that.
> > > > >
> > > > > I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm =
supposed
> to
> > > get
> > > > > to ask you a question. But as every single technical =
operative at
> > your
> > > > > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved
> > completely
> > > > > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine =
company.
> > > But
> > > > > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the =
product. You
> > > told
> > > > > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> > > > It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - =
it is
> up
> > to
> > > > Dell to provide you with support.
> > > >
> > > > > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? =
No,
> > Dell
> > > > did
> > > > > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask =
Dell?
> > Dell
> > > > > doesn't know what you've done.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access =
to
> > > technical
> > > > data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it =
is an
> > OEM
> > > > machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are =
the
> > only
> > > > ones who can provide the required support.
> > > > Dell do and can know "what we have done"
> > > >
> > > > > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like =
Linux.
> > Other
> > > > > people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? =
I
> > > might've
> > > > > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or =
some
> such
> > > > > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're =
the big
> > > game
> > > > > in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has =
a
> deal
> > > with
> > > > > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, =
but
> > > > > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. =
So if
> I
> > > buy
> > > > > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if =
I
> would
> > > like
> > > > > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that =
way, I
> > > > cannot
> > > > > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, =
here.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > You can purchase a device from other vendors with other =
opertaing
> > systems
> > > or
> > > > non at all.
> > > > You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on =
PCs
> they
> > > > ship.
> > > > See comment above about OEM support.
> > > > If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements
> > > (including)
> > > > choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
> > > >
> > > > > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. =
So I
> > > decided
> > > > > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I
> installed
> > > it.
> > > > > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM =
version.
> > > Meaning
> > > > > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. =
There
> > was
> > > a
> > > > > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product =3D support =
by OEM.
> > > >
> > > > > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. =
At
> > this
> > > > > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any =
sense of
> > > > > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the =
world,
> you
> > > > great
> > > > > jolly megalith, you.
> > > > >
> > > > > I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at =
yours
> > > every
> > > > > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or =
occasionally
> on
> > a
> > > > > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet
> Explorer"
> > > > > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead =
of
> > "Windows
> > > > > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, =
please)...you
> > don't
> > > > > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> > > > >
> > > > > But...I bought it in this country.
> > > > >
> > > > > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked =
once
> again.
> > > > > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country."
> Okay.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you =
reside
> ?
> > > Was
> > > > it a grey import ?
> > > > If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a
> problem
> > > > (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not =
state
> where
> > > you
> > > > are.)
> > > >
> > > > > I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I =
went
> > > > through
> > > > > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you =
on the
> > > > phone!
> > > > > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to =
go to
> > Dell
> > > > > for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their =
machines
> and
> > > > possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support =
personnel
> to
> > > > provide the necessary support on the product.
> > > > They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot =
resolve and
> > also
> > > > to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
> > > >
> > > > > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your
> > > "communities"
> > > > > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking =
page full
> > of
> > > > > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. =
Like
> > most
> > > of
> > > > > your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to =
submit
> a
> > > > > question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you =
can
> > figure
> > > > > out the answer to that.
> > > > >
> > > > Do you mean here
> > > > http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
> > > > or
> > > > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx
> > > >
> > > > Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
> > > >
> > > > > I mean, there was a little bit of information on your =
newsgroups.
> > > Ninety
> > > > > trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, =
script-ridden,
> > > cookie-
> > > > > filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. =
Yessir,
> > doesn't
> > > > > get much more modern than a newsgroup.
> > > >
> > > > What would you prefer?
> > > > This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support =
community
> that
> > > the
> > > > technical community operate in.
> > > >
> > > > > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > > > > are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use
> > > newsgroups.
> > > > > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't =
deserve
> > > technical
> > > > > help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, =
or
> for
> > a
> > > > > computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some =
of
> your
> > > > > software.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. =
OEMs
> > provide
> > > > support for their OEM supplied products.
> > > >
> > > > There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as =
well as
> > > > advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
> > > >
> > > > > Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP =
Support
> > > > > Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an =
hour
> > > before.
> > > > > Elegant.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other =
routes and
> > > then
> > > > may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support =
services.
> > > The
> > > > web is not a linear construct people enter from various =
directions.
> > > >
> > > > > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped!
> > "Coming
> > > > > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains =
how
> to
> > > use
> > > > > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools =
to
> > > protect
> > > > > essential data." Well, that would have been useful before =
last
> week,
> > > when
> > > > > the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south =
and
> take
> > > out
> > > > > a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, =
irreplaceable
> > > > personal
> > > > > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I =
hadn't
> even
> > > > > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't =
need
> me
> > > > > bothering you with my little problems.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > If you have lost a significant amount of important data because =
you
> made
> > > no
> > > > effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software =
(backup
> or
> > > > otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
> > > >
> > > > > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the =
drive
> > "is
> > > > > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's =
okay
> > because
> > > > I'm
> > > > > smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like =
knowing
> I
> > > can
> > > > > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ok
> > > >
> > > > > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with =
questions, you
> > > > > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar
> > > references
> > > > > just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you =
won't
> > > > > support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail
> account
> > > > just
> > > > > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at =
the
> > > useless
> > > > > support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A =
Passport ID
> > > which
> > > > > is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. =
Thanks
> for
> > > > > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of
> "which
> > of
> > > > > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please =
tell
> us
> > > all
> > > > > your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one =
with
> > > > > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use =
that to
> > > screw
> > > > > people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my =
name
> is
> > > > > really William Gates, although surely there could only be one =
in the
> > > whole
> > > > > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> > > > >
> > > > > But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad =
you've
> > > taken
> > > > > such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have =
me
> > click
> > > > > inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about =
the
> > > > > intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. =
You
> > really
> > > > do
> > > > > care!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes - we do.
> > > >
> > > > > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very =
soul.
> > > > >
> > > > > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
> > > > >
> > > > > Neil Obstat
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 7/10/2003
> >
> >
>=20
>

[Graham]

"Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
...
Mike

Do some OEM suppliers remove components? If yes then they could run the risk
of a claim for damages for misrepresentation if they call it Windows XP etc
by customers and court actions initiated by Trading Standards.

--

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Go here and read some before you make such asinine statements.
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/main.asp this allowed under the OEM program.

[Kadaitcha Man]

Amethyst wrote:
> Will Denny wrote:
>> Hi Cass
>>
>> I've stopped my attacks on MVPs - perhaps you could lower you
>> language a tad.
>>
>> Will
>
>
> Sorry Will? AFAIK, I wasn't attacking an MVP - I was attacking the
> moron who sent the original rant (which didn't appear on my server)
> not Mike who's a really good guy (rather like yourself)

SUCK! SUCK! SUCK! SUCK! SUCK! SUCK!

> - there was
> no way I was attacking him and I apologise to him unreservedly if he
> took it that way...

SUCK! SUCK! SUCK! SUCK! SUCK! SUCK!

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

[Kadaitcha Man]

Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:

> We are not passing the
> buck - you get an OEM Windows at a greatly reduce cost compared to
> the retail product - due to the fact that you are directly supported
> by Microsoft.

BWAGAGAGHAGHAGHAGAGHAGHAGHGHAGHA!!!!

Your brainwashing is total. "Please provide your credit card detials and be
prepared to part with your money. If WE think it's a bug with our product,
we might consider a refund."

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

[Kadaitcha Man]

Graham wrote:

> It did not sound like a runaround from Microsoft, they ask for the
> serial number, you give it, they say sorry, we do not support a
> product we did not supply. Please go see the Original Equipment
> Manufacturer. This the reason the OEM is $200 less than the retail
> version for home and $300 for pro.

BWAHAHAHAH!! And when it a product they support, you get told "Please
provide your credit card detials and be prepared to part with your money. If
WE think it's a bug with our product, we might consider a refund."

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

[Kadaitcha Man]

Graham wrote:
>> "Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> Mike
>>
>> Do some OEM suppliers remove components? If yes then they could run
>> the risk of a claim for damages for misrepresentation if they call it
>> Windows XP etc by customers and court actions initiated by Trading
>> Standards.

> Go here and read some before you make such asinine statements.
> http://www.microsoft.com/oem/main.asp this allowed under the OEM
> program.

BWAGAHGAHAGHAGHAGAGH!!! He was talking from a consumer legal persepective
and you ****ing well tell him to read some microsoft ****?
BWAGAHGAHAGHAGAH!!!! You complete and utter ****ing moron.

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

[Gerry Cornell]

I am not sure what bearing the content of the link has with regard to =
the law of misrepresentation. If a vendor advertises a Rolls Royce and =
sells you a Ford dressed up as a Rolls Royce then the customer has a =
viable legal action for damages. The law may vary from Country to =
Country but I would anticipate that the basis premise is true wherever =
you reside.

--=20
~~~~~~


Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please tell the newsgroup how any=20
suggested solution worked for you.
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



"Graham" > wrote in message =
...
>=20
> "Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
> ...
> Mike
>=20
> Do some OEM suppliers remove components? If yes then they could run =
the risk
> of a claim for damages for misrepresentation if they call it Windows =
XP etc
> by customers and court actions initiated by Trading Standards.
>=20
> --
>=20
> ~~~~~~
>=20
> Regards.
>=20
> Gerry
>=20
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> FCA
>
> Stourport, Worcs, England
> Enquire, plan and execute.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Go here and read some before you make such asinine statements.
> http://www.microsoft.com/oem/main.asp this allowed under the OEM =
program.
>=20
>

[Jim Macklin]

Microsoft put drivers for all brands and such on the retail
and their OEM install CDs. But hardware manufacturers such
as Dell have no reason to put drivers for Gateway, HP/Compaq
or ATI on their oem CDs because they don't have any reason
to support other hardware manufactures.

Dell at least supplies a working oem CD...


"Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
...
Mike

Do some OEM suppliers remove components? If yes then they
could run the risk of a claim for damages for
misrepresentation if they call it Windows XP etc by
customers and court actions initiated by Trading Standards.

--

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" >
wrote in message
...
> "Testy" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM
program and have
> every
> > maker include a full CD.
>
> Testy,
>
> Is that just force the OEM to provide a full white box
disk OEM CD ROM; or
> end the whole program of OEM product requiring OEM support
and actually ship
> a Retail CD?
> If the later - would the market stand the increase in cost
(passed onto the
> consumer) for the support of all those millions and
millions of OEM
> customers now having to come to Microsoft ?
>
> If just force the OEM CD ROM in the package with the PC -
then interesting
> idea.
> --
> Regards,
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and
confers no
> rights
>
> Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please
use these
> newsgroups
>
> "Testy" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM
program and have
> every
> > maker include a full CD.
> >
> > Testy
> >
> > "David Banks" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour
that was intended I
> > do
> > > think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who
has the Windows
> > > product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from
an OEM.
> > >
> > > All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only
know the basics
> of
> > > the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of
and I have never
> yet
> > > had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in
the UK. Both
> Microsoft
> > > and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar
to post, how
> anybody
> > > without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the
'buck-passing'
> > > atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.
> > >
> > > There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and
they will probably
> turn
> > > out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators
message (as has
> been
> > > done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving
smart, glib answers on
> > how
> > > stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get
from the response by
> > > Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you
don't like it, you
> > > know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services
handbook, since
> > when
> > > has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we
can 'go
> elsewhere'
> > to
> > > the average computer buyer with little knowledge of
computing is a bit
> > 'high
> > > minded' of you and again only reflects the general
perception that the
> > > public have of the organisation.
> > >
> > > I always get some smart person replying to my
enquiries pointing out the
> > > obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them
with the message
> 'read
> > my
> > > enquiry again, you have not answered the question I
asked'
> > >
> > > A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your
time (and energy)
> > but
> > > I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and
then.
> > >
> > > Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the
backup program is
> not
> > > included on the standard XP installation!!!!
> > >
> > > I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written
it using my own
> > > Customer
> > > Services Handbook:-
> > >
> > > 'Dear Neil
> > >
> > > I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in
obtaining the
> > > information you require. The Windows operating system
is very complex
> and
> > > navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can
sometimes be
> > frustrating
> > > but please persevere. Here are the links where you
will find the answers
> > to
> > > your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
> > > Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all
feedback and hope
> that
> > > we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously
a very
> frustrating
> > > problem to you.
> > > Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if
you have any
> further
> > > queries or problems.'
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]"
> wrote in message
>
> > > ...
> > > > Neil,
> > > >
> > > > Comments inline
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > --
> > > > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> > > >
> > > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties,
and confers no
> > > > rights
> > > >
> > > > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions,
please use these
> > > > newsgroups
> > > >
> > > > "Neil Obstat"
> wrote
> in
> > > > message
48.16...
> > > > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure
out how the hell I
> > am
> > > > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your
filthy, worthless
> > > > > products.
> > > > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]"
> wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Neil,
> > > >
> > > > Comments inline
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > --
> > > > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> > > >
> > > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties,
and confers no
> > > > rights
> > > >
> > > > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions,
please use these
> > > > newsgroups
> > > >
> > > > "Neil Obstat"
> wrote
> in
> > > > message
48.16...
> > > > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure
out how the hell I
> > am
> > > > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your
filthy, worthless
> > > > > products.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is not a statement that is condusive to those
who may to provide
> > > > support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
> > > >
> > > > > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with
its associated
> > graphics
> > > in
> > > > > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page
could not be
> saved
> > to
> > > > > the selected location."
> > > >
> > > > Can you please supply which pages you are having
problems with.
> > > >
> > > > Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> > > > This creates an addtional folder below the locvation
you are saving to
> > > that
> > > > contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure
you have permissions
> > to
> > > > creat this addtional folder for the page you are
Saving.
> > > >
> > > > Also try the Save As single file. This produces a
MHT file with all
> the
> > > > content embedded.
> > > >
> > > > On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single
file produced
> > better
> > > > results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better
as single file)
> > > >
> > > > > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > > > > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up
no results. I
> > looked
> > > > for
> > > > > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean,
that's part of what
> > the
> > > > > error message says. It uses those very words. I
even checked to
> make
> > > > sure
> > > > > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text
would be present
> > > > > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the
section for Internet
> > > Explorer
> > > > > 6, the program that gives me the error message.
Nope. No such
> luck.
> > > > > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate
with your knowledge
> > > base.
> > > > > That would be helpful.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> > > > If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> > > > http://support.microsoft.com/
> > > > Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database
(Knowledge Base)
> > > > Just leave the Select your Product as the default -
All Microsoft
> Search
> > > > topics-
> > > > enter
> > > > "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For
Solution
> containing
> > > > and Using ... The exact phrase entered
> > > >
> > > > Produces one result
> > > > http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589
> > > >
> > > > Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it
relevent to you ??
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful.
The "selecte(oops,
> > hang
> > > > > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in
my face WHILE I
> WAS
> > IN
> > > > > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do
that, Microsoft!)d
> > > > location"
> > > > > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where
I try to save the
> > > page,
> > > > > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from
your knowledge
> > base,
> > > > > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do
with an update
> that
> > > was
> > > > > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I
guess my original
> > > > question
> > > > > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at
any point? I
> mean,
> > I
> > > > > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice
feature, being able
> to
> > > > save
> > > > > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact
and all. But it
> > > doesn't
> > > > > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to
know if, having
> > > broken
> > > > > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged
that you had
> broken
> > > it,
> > > > > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Which pages are problematic and are any releated to
the KB article I
> > > found.
> > > >
> > > > > And then I tried to ask you that.
> > > > >
> > > > > I went to your support page. I went to the part
where I'm supposed
> to
> > > get
> > > > > to ask you a question. But as every single
technical operative at
> > your
> > > > > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz,
this proved
> > completely
> > > > > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell.
Dell's a fine company.
> > > But
> > > > > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about
the product. You
> > > told
> > > > > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The support for OEM products is the responsibility
of the OEM.
> > > > It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows
XP on it - it is
> up
> > to
> > > > Dell to provide you with support.
> > > >
> > > > > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending
program, did Dell? No,
> > Dell
> > > > did
> > > > > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it.
So why ask Dell?
> > Dell
> > > > > doesn't know what you've done.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and
have access to
> > > technical
> > > > data that Microsoft support personnel do. In
addition since it is an
> > OEM
> > > > machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and
as such are the
> > only
> > > > ones who can provide the required support.
> > > > Dell do and can know "what we have done"
> > > >
> > > > > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried
something like Linux.
> > Other
> > > > > people do still make operating systems out there,
don't they? I
> > > might've
> > > > > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or
a Unix or some
> such
> > > > > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and
since you're the big
> > > game
> > > > > in town I have to buy your software with the
system. Dell has a
> deal
> > > with
> > > > > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe
not retail, but
> > > > > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me
for nothing. So if
> I
> > > buy
> > > > > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm
not asked if I
> would
> > > like
> > > > > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy
Windows that way, I
> > > > cannot
> > > > > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite
screwed, here.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > You can purchase a device from other vendors with
other opertaing
> > systems
> > > or
> > > > non at all.
> > > > You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM
product on PCs
> they
> > > > ship.
> > > > See comment above about OEM support.
> > > > If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your
requirements
> > > (including)
> > > > choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
> > > >
> > > > > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to
go to Dell. So I
> > > decided
> > > > > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of
Encarta, and I
> installed
> > > it.
> > > > > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't
an OEM version.
> > > Meaning
> > > > > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN
to purchase. There
> > was
> > > a
> > > > > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product
= support by OEM.
> > > >
> > > > > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product
ID from that. At
> > this
> > > > > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your
company had any sense of
> > > > > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrough
t on the world,
> you
> > > > great
> > > > > jolly megalith, you.
> > > > >
> > > > > I want you to have to read my words, because I
have to look at yours
> > > every
> > > > > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog.
Or occasionally
> on
> > a
> > > > > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of
"Internet
> Explorer"
> > > > > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I
mean instead of
> > "Windows
> > > > > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told
(drumroll, please)...you
> > don't
> > > > > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> > > > >
> > > > > But...I bought it in this country.
> > > > >
> > > > > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had.
Checked once
> again.
> > > > > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in
this country."
> Okay.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country
where you reside
> ?
> > > Was
> > > > it a grey import ?
> > > > If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we
may have a
> problem
> > > > (please note the use of USA is just an example,as
you do not state
> where
> > > you
> > > > are.)
> > > >
> > > > > I could bore you with all the details of what I
tried then. I went
> > > > through
> > > > > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I
can call you on the
> > > > phone!
> > > > > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you
tell me to go to
> > Dell
> > > > > for support on a product YOU wrote and published.
Cool.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM
onto their machines
> and
> > > > possibly modify or augment. They then trained the
support personnel
> to
> > > > provide the necessary support on the product.
> > > > They also have routes back into us for issues they
cannot resolve and
> > also
> > > > to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
> > > >
> > > > > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to
one of your
> > > "communities"
> > > > > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o
looking page full
> > of
> > > > > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an
advertisement. Like
> > most
> > > of
> > > > > your products do, these days. Did I see any place
for me to submit
> a
> > > > > question for the consideration of the "community?"
I bet you can
> > figure
> > > > > out the answer to that.
> > > > >
> > > > Do you mean here
> > > > http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
> > > > or
> > > > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx
> > > >
> > > > Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
> > > >
> > > > > I mean, there was a little bit of information on
your newsgroups.
> > > Ninety
> > > > > trillion dollars you must've spent on that
bloated, script-ridden,
> > > cookie-
> > > > > filled web page, and you send people to the
newsgroups. Yessir,
> > doesn't
> > > > > get much more modern than a newsgroup.
> > > >
> > > > What would you prefer?
> > > > This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer
support community
> that
> > > the
> > > > technical community operate in.
> > > >
> > > > > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > > > > are familiar with the technology and etiquette
required to use
> > > newsgroups.
> > > > > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons
don't deserve
> > > technical
> > > > > help, do they? They only shelled out money for
your software, or
> for
> > a
> > > > > computer which came with mandatorily-installed
copies of some of
> your
> > > > > software.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > We offer technical support as detailed for retail
customers. OEMs
> > provide
> > > > support for their OEM supplied products.
> > > >
> > > > There is no technology required - we offer a Web
interface; as well as
> > > > advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
> > > >
> > > > > Also on the "communities" page was a link called
"Windows XP Support
> > > > > Center," which lead right back to where I had
started from an hour
> > > before.
> > > > > Elegant.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes - since some people arrive at the communities
via other routes and
> > > then
> > > > may want to search the knowledgebase or access other
support services.
> > > The
> > > > web is not a linear construct people enter from
various directions.
> > > >
> > > > > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article
being hyped!
> > "Coming
> > > > > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed
Bott explains how
> to
> > > use
> > > > > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party
back up tools to
> > > protect
> > > > > essential data." Well, that would have been
useful before last
> week,
> > > when
> > > > > the partition table on my main data drive decided
to go south and
> take
> > > out
> > > > > a year's worth of projects for school and some
nice, irreplaceable
> > > > personal
> > > > > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I
mean, I hadn't
> even
> > > > > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy,
and you don't need
> me
> > > > > bothering you with my little problems.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > If you have lost a significant amount of important
data because you
> made
> > > no
> > > > effort to protect it through the use of appropriate
software (backup
> or
> > > > otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
> > > >
> > > > > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever
since that the drive
> > "is
> > > > > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate,
but that's okay
> > because
> > > > I'm
> > > > > smart enough to figure out the real problem
myself. I like knowing
> I
> > > can
> > > > > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ok
> > > >
> > > > > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you
with questions, you
> > > > > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood
and 35 stellar
> > > references
> > > > > just so I can get to the point of typing in a
Product ID you won't
> > > > > support...in this country. I had to create a
stinking Hotmail
> account
> > > > just
> > > > > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even
take a look at the
> > > useless
> > > > > support page that wound up helping me not one
whit. (A Passport ID
> > > which
> > > > > is now linked to my user account on this computer.
Super. Thanks
> for
> > > > > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through
15 pages of
> "which
> > of
> > > > > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to"
and "please tell
> us
> > > all
> > > > > your hobbies." So I can get an email account.
(But not one with
> > > > > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I
could use that to
> > > screw
> > > > > people, and that job's been filled already. That,
or else my name
> is
> > > > > really William Gates, although surely there could
only be one in the
> > > whole
> > > > > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> > > > >
> > > > > But, the delay of wading through those forms
aside, I'm glad you've
> > > taken
> > > > > such a profound interest in me as a person that
you would have me
> > click
> > > > > inside little square boxes in order that you may
learn about the
> > > > > intricacies that make up my fascinating and
variegated life. You
> > really
> > > > do
> > > > > care!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes - we do.
> > > >
> > > > > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to
steal my very soul.
> > > > >
> > > > > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you,
Microsoft?
> > > > >
> > > > > Neil Obstat
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system
(http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date:
7/10/2003
> >
> >
>
>

[Gerry Cornell]

Jim

Thanks for a non-asinine reply!

--=20

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message =
...
> Microsoft put drivers for all brands and such on the retail
> and their OEM install CDs. But hardware manufacturers such
> as Dell have no reason to put drivers for Gateway, HP/Compaq
> or ATI on their oem CDs because they don't have any reason
> to support other hardware manufactures.
>=20
> Dell at least supplies a working oem CD...
>=20
>=20
> "Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
> ...
> Mike
>=20
> Do some OEM suppliers remove components? If yes then they
> could run the risk of a claim for damages for
> misrepresentation if they call it Windows XP etc by
> customers and court actions initiated by Trading Standards.
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> ~~~~~~
>=20
> Regards.
>=20
> Gerry
>=20
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> FCA
>
> Stourport, Worcs, England
> Enquire, plan and execute.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
> "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" >
> wrote in message
> ...
> > "Testy" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > > Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM
> program and have
> > every
> > > maker include a full CD.
> >
> > Testy,
> >
> > Is that just force the OEM to provide a full white box
> disk OEM CD ROM; or
> > end the whole program of OEM product requiring OEM support
> and actually ship
> > a Retail CD?
> > If the later - would the market stand the increase in cost
> (passed onto the
> > consumer) for the support of all those millions and
> millions of OEM
> > customers now having to come to Microsoft ?
> >
> > If just force the OEM CD ROM in the package with the PC -
> then interesting
> > idea.
> > --=20
> > Regards,
> >
> > Mike
> > --
> > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> >
> > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and
> confers no
> > rights
> >
> > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please
> use these
> > newsgroups
> >
> > "Testy" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > > Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM
> program and have
> > every
> > > maker include a full CD.
> > >
> > > Testy
> > >
> > > "David Banks" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour
> that was intended I
> > > do
> > > > think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who
> has the Windows
> > > > product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from
> an OEM.
> > > >
> > > > All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only
> know the basics
> > of
> > > > the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of
> and I have never
> > yet
> > > > had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in
> the UK. Both
> > Microsoft
> > > > and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar
> to post, how
> > anybody
> > > > without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the
> 'buck-passing'
> > > > atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.
> > > >
> > > > There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and
> they will probably
> > turn
> > > > out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators
> message (as has
> > been
> > > > done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving
> smart, glib answers on
> > > how
> > > > stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get
> from the response by
> > > > Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you
> don't like it, you
> > > > know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services
> handbook, since
> > > when
> > > > has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we
> can 'go
> > elsewhere'
> > > to
> > > > the average computer buyer with little knowledge of
> computing is a bit
> > > 'high
> > > > minded' of you and again only reflects the general
> perception that the
> > > > public have of the organisation.
> > > >
> > > > I always get some smart person replying to my
> enquiries pointing out the
> > > > obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them
> with the message
> > 'read
> > > my
> > > > enquiry again, you have not answered the question I
> asked'
> > > >
> > > > A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your
> time (and energy)
> > > but
> > > > I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and
> then.
> > > >
> > > > Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the
> backup program is
> > not
> > > > included on the standard XP installation!!!!
> > > >
> > > > I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written
> it using my own
> > > > Customer
> > > > Services Handbook:-
> > > >
> > > > 'Dear Neil
> > > >
> > > > I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in
> obtaining the
> > > > information you require. The Windows operating system
> is very complex
> > and
> > > > navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can
> sometimes be
> > > frustrating
> > > > but please persevere. Here are the links where you
> will find the answers
> > > to
> > > > your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
> > > > Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all
> feedback and hope
> > that
> > > > we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously
> a very
> > frustrating
> > > > problem to you.
> > > > Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if
> you have any
> > further
> > > > queries or problems.'
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]"
> > wrote in message
> >
> > > > ...
> > > > > Neil,
> > > > >
> > > > > Comments inline
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > --
> > > > > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> > > > >
> > > > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties,
> and confers no
> > > > > rights
> > > > >
> > > > > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions,
> please use these
> > > > > newsgroups
> > > > >
> > > > > "Neil Obstat"
> > wrote
> > in
> > > > > message
> 48.16...
> > > > > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure
> out how the hell I
> > > am
> > > > > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your
> filthy, worthless
> > > > > > products.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]"
> > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Neil,
> > > > >
> > > > > Comments inline
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > --
> > > > > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> > > > >
> > > > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties,
> and confers no
> > > > > rights
> > > > >
> > > > > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions,
> please use these
> > > > > newsgroups
> > > > >
> > > > > "Neil Obstat"
> > wrote
> > in
> > > > > message
> 48.16...
> > > > > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure
> out how the hell I
> > > am
> > > > > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your
> filthy, worthless
> > > > > > products.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This is not a statement that is condusive to those
> who may to provide
> > > > > support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
> > > > >
> > > > > > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with
> its associated
> > > graphics
> > > > in
> > > > > > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page
> could not be
> > saved
> > > to
> > > > > > the selected location."
> > > > >
> > > > > Can you please supply which pages you are having
> problems with.
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> > > > > This creates an addtional folder below the locvation
> you are saving to
> > > > that
> > > > > contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure
> you have permissions
> > > to
> > > > > creat this addtional folder for the page you are
> Saving.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also try the Save As single file. This produces a
> MHT file with all
> > the
> > > > > content embedded.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single
> file produced
> > > better
> > > > > results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better
> as single file)
> > > > >
> > > > > > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > > > > > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up
> no results. I
> > > looked
> > > > > for
> > > > > > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean,
> that's part of what
> > > the
> > > > > > error message says. It uses those very words. I
> even checked to
> > make
> > > > > sure
> > > > > > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text
> would be present
> > > > > > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the
> section for Internet
> > > > Explorer
> > > > > > 6, the program that gives me the error message.
> Nope. No such
> > luck.
> > > > > > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate
> with your knowledge
> > > > base.
> > > > > > That would be helpful.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> > > > > If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> > > > > http://support.microsoft.com/
> > > > > Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database
> (Knowledge Base)
> > > > > Just leave the Select your Product as the default -
> All Microsoft
> > Search
> > > > > topics-
> > > > > enter
> > > > > "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For
> Solution
> > containing
> > > > > and Using ... The exact phrase entered
> > > > >
> > > > > Produces one result
> > > > > http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=3D235589
> > > > >
> > > > > Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it
> relevent to you ??
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful.
> The "selecte(oops,
> > > hang
> > > > > > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in
> my face WHILE I
> > WAS
> > > IN
> > > > > > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do
> that, Microsoft!)d
> > > > > location"
> > > > > > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where
> I try to save the
> > > > page,
> > > > > > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from
> your knowledge
> > > base,
> > > > > > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do
> with an update
> > that
> > > > was
> > > > > > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I
> guess my original
> > > > > question
> > > > > > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at
> any point? I
> > mean,
> > > I
> > > > > > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice
> feature, being able
> > to
> > > > > save
> > > > > > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact
> and all. But it
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to
> know if, having
> > > > broken
> > > > > > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged
> that you had
> > broken
> > > > it,
> > > > > > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Which pages are problematic and are any releated to
> the KB article I
> > > > found.
> > > > >
> > > > > > And then I tried to ask you that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I went to your support page. I went to the part
> where I'm supposed
> > to
> > > > get
> > > > > > to ask you a question. But as every single
> technical operative at
> > > your
> > > > > > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz,
> this proved
> > > completely
> > > > > > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell.
> Dell's a fine company.
> > > > But
> > > > > > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about
> the product. You
> > > > told
> > > > > > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The support for OEM products is the responsibility
> of the OEM.
> > > > > It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows
> XP on it - it is
> > up
> > > to
> > > > > Dell to provide you with support.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending
> program, did Dell? No,
> > > Dell
> > > > > did
> > > > > > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it.
> So why ask Dell?
> > > Dell
> > > > > > doesn't know what you've done.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and
> have access to
> > > > technical
> > > > > data that Microsoft support personnel do. In
> addition since it is an
> > > OEM
> > > > > machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and
> as such are the
> > > only
> > > > > ones who can provide the required support.
> > > > > Dell do and can know "what we have done"
> > > > >
> > > > > > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried
> something like Linux.
> > > Other
> > > > > > people do still make operating systems out there,
> don't they? I
> > > > might've
> > > > > > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or
> a Unix or some
> > such
> > > > > > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and
> since you're the big
> > > > game
> > > > > > in town I have to buy your software with the
> system. Dell has a
> > deal
> > > > with
> > > > > > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe
> not retail, but
> > > > > > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me
> for nothing. So if
> > I
> > > > buy
> > > > > > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm
> not asked if I
> > would
> > > > like
> > > > > > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy
> Windows that way, I
> > > > > cannot
> > > > > > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite
> screwed, here.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You can purchase a device from other vendors with
> other opertaing
> > > systems
> > > > or
> > > > > non at all.
> > > > > You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM
> product on PCs
> > they
> > > > > ship.
> > > > > See comment above about OEM support.
> > > > > If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your
> requirements
> > > > (including)
> > > > > choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to
> go to Dell. So I
> > > > decided
> > > > > > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of
> Encarta, and I
> > installed
> > > > it.
> > > > > > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't
> an OEM version.
> > > > Meaning
> > > > > > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN
> to purchase. There
> > > was
> > > > a
> > > > > > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product
> =3D support by OEM.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product
> ID from that. At
> > > this
> > > > > > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your
> company had any sense of
> > > > > > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrough
> t on the world,
> > you
> > > > > great
> > > > > > jolly megalith, you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I want you to have to read my words, because I
> have to look at yours
> > > > every
> > > > > > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog.
> Or occasionally
> > on
> > > a
> > > > > > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of
> "Internet
> > Explorer"
> > > > > > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I
> mean instead of
> > > "Windows
> > > > > > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told
> (drumroll, please)...you
> > > don't
> > > > > > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But...I bought it in this country.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had.
> Checked once
> > again.
> > > > > > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in
> this country."
> > Okay.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country
> where you reside
> > ?
> > > > Was
> > > > > it a grey import ?
> > > > > If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we
> may have a
> > problem
> > > > > (please note the use of USA is just an example,as
> you do not state
> > where
> > > > you
> > > > > are.)
> > > > >
> > > > > > I could bore you with all the details of what I
> tried then. I went
> > > > > through
> > > > > > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I
> can call you on the
> > > > > phone!
> > > > > > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you
> tell me to go to
> > > Dell
> > > > > > for support on a product YOU wrote and published.
> Cool.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM
> onto their machines
> > and
> > > > > possibly modify or augment. They then trained the
> support personnel
> > to
> > > > > provide the necessary support on the product.
> > > > > They also have routes back into us for issues they
> cannot resolve and
> > > also
> > > > > to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
> > > > >
> > > > > > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to
> one of your
> > > > "communities"
> > > > > > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o
> looking page full
> > > of
> > > > > > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an
> advertisement. Like
> > > most
> > > > of
> > > > > > your products do, these days. Did I see any place
> for me to submit
> > a
> > > > > > question for the consideration of the "community?"
> I bet you can
> > > figure
> > > > > > out the answer to that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Do you mean here
> > > > > http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
> > > > > or
> > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx
> > > > >
> > > > > Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I mean, there was a little bit of information on
> your newsgroups.
> > > > Ninety
> > > > > > trillion dollars you must've spent on that
> bloated, script-ridden,
> > > > cookie-
> > > > > > filled web page, and you send people to the
> newsgroups. Yessir,
> > > doesn't
> > > > > > get much more modern than a newsgroup.
> > > > >
> > > > > What would you prefer?
> > > > > This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer
> support community
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > technical community operate in.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > > > > > are familiar with the technology and etiquette
> required to use
> > > > newsgroups.
> > > > > > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons
> don't deserve
> > > > technical
> > > > > > help, do they? They only shelled out money for
> your software, or
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > > computer which came with mandatorily-installed
> copies of some of
> > your
> > > > > > software.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > We offer technical support as detailed for retail
> customers. OEMs
> > > provide
> > > > > support for their OEM supplied products.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no technology required - we offer a Web
> interface; as well as
> > > > > advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Also on the "communities" page was a link called
> "Windows XP Support
> > > > > > Center," which lead right back to where I had
> started from an hour
> > > > before.
> > > > > > Elegant.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes - since some people arrive at the communities
> via other routes and
> > > > then
> > > > > may want to search the knowledgebase or access other
> support services.
> > > > The
> > > > > web is not a linear construct people enter from
> various directions.
> > > > >
> > > > > > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article
> being hyped!
> > > "Coming
> > > > > > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed
> Bott explains how
> > to
> > > > use
> > > > > > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party
> back up tools to
> > > > protect
> > > > > > essential data." Well, that would have been
> useful before last
> > week,
> > > > when
> > > > > > the partition table on my main data drive decided
> to go south and
> > take
> > > > out
> > > > > > a year's worth of projects for school and some
> nice, irreplaceable
> > > > > personal
> > > > > > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I
> mean, I hadn't
> > even
> > > > > > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy,
> and you don't need
> > me
> > > > > > bothering you with my little problems.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If you have lost a significant amount of important
> data because you
> > made
> > > > no
> > > > > effort to protect it through the use of appropriate
> software (backup
> > or
> > > > > otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
> > > > >
> > > > > > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever
> since that the drive
> > > "is
> > > > > > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate,
> but that's okay
> > > because
> > > > > I'm
> > > > > > smart enough to figure out the real problem
> myself. I like knowing
> > I
> > > > can
> > > > > > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ok
> > > > >
> > > > > > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you
> with questions, you
> > > > > > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood
> and 35 stellar
> > > > references
> > > > > > just so I can get to the point of typing in a
> Product ID you won't
> > > > > > support...in this country. I had to create a
> stinking Hotmail
> > account
> > > > > just
> > > > > > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even
> take a look at the
> > > > useless
> > > > > > support page that wound up helping me not one
> whit. (A Passport ID
> > > > which
> > > > > > is now linked to my user account on this computer.
> Super. Thanks
> > for
> > > > > > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through
> 15 pages of
> > "which
> > > of
> > > > > > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to"
> and "please tell
> > us
> > > > all
> > > > > > your hobbies." So I can get an email account.
> (But not one with
> > > > > > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I
> could use that to
> > > > screw
> > > > > > people, and that job's been filled already. That,
> or else my name
> > is
> > > > > > really William Gates, although surely there could
> only be one in the
> > > > whole
> > > > > > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But, the delay of wading through those forms
> aside, I'm glad you've
> > > > taken
> > > > > > such a profound interest in me as a person that
> you would have me
> > > click
> > > > > > inside little square boxes in order that you may
> learn about the
> > > > > > intricacies that make up my fascinating and
> variegated life. You
> > > really
> > > > > do
> > > > > > care!
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes - we do.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to
> steal my very soul.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you,
> Microsoft?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Neil Obstat
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date:
> 7/10/2003
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>=20
>

[Graham]

"Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
...
I am not sure what bearing the content of the link has with regard to the
law of misrepresentation. If a vendor advertises a Rolls Royce and sells you
a Ford dressed up as a Rolls Royce then the customer has a viable legal
action for damages. The law may vary from Country to Country but I would
anticipate that the basis premise is true wherever you reside.

--
~~~~~~


Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please tell the newsgroup how any
suggested solution worked for you.
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Did you go and read the supplied info at the link I posted. It clearly
states what can and cannot be done with an OEM disc. It is not
misrepresentation to add or remove some parts of the OS. I have never used
an HP pc supplied with XP, but am pretty sure it includes their imaging
software and not Microsoft's. Plus as the older ones used the HP jukebox and
not media player, it is a good bet this is also different. Does this mean
you would sue them?

[Gerry Cornell]

Graham

It would take hours to read the link, even then a lot of it is virtually =
incomprehensible legalistic jargon. The substance of what you buy must =
equate to the claims made by those advertising their product. Minor =
variations may be acceptable but not a lower standard product!=20


~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




"Graham" > wrote in message =
...
>=20
> "Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
> ...
> I am not sure what bearing the content of the link has with regard to =
the
> law of misrepresentation. If a vendor advertises a Rolls Royce and =
sells you
> a Ford dressed up as a Rolls Royce then the customer has a viable =
legal
> action for damages. The law may vary from Country to Country but I =
would
> anticipate that the basis premise is true wherever you reside.
>=20
> --
> ~~~~~~
>=20
>=20
> Hope this helps.
>=20
> Gerry
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> FCA
>
> Stourport, Worcs, England
> Enquire, plan and execute.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Please tell the newsgroup how any
> suggested solution worked for you.
> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
> Did you go and read the supplied info at the link I posted. It clearly
> states what can and cannot be done with an OEM disc. It is not
> misrepresentation to add or remove some parts of the OS. I have never =
used
> an HP pc supplied with XP, but am pretty sure it includes their =
imaging
> software and not Microsoft's. Plus as the older ones used the HP =
jukebox and
> not media player, it is a good bet this is also different. Does this =
mean
> you would sue them?
>=20
>

[Jim Macklin]

No problem, I hope I am correct.


"Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
...
Jim

Thanks for a non-asinine reply!

--

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message ...
> Microsoft put drivers for all brands and such on the
retail
> and their OEM install CDs. But hardware manufacturers
such
> as Dell have no reason to put drivers for Gateway,
HP/Compaq
> or ATI on their oem CDs because they don't have any reason
> to support other hardware manufactures.
>
> Dell at least supplies a working oem CD...
>
>
> "Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
> ...
> Mike
>
> Do some OEM suppliers remove components? If yes then they
> could run the risk of a claim for damages for
> misrepresentation if they call it Windows XP etc by
> customers and court actions initiated by Trading
Standards.
>
> --
>
> ~~~~~~
>
> Regards.
>
> Gerry
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> FCA
>
> Stourport, Worcs, England
> Enquire, plan and execute.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" >
> wrote in message
> ...
> > "Testy" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > > Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM
> program and have
> > every
> > > maker include a full CD.
> >
> > Testy,
> >
> > Is that just force the OEM to provide a full white box
> disk OEM CD ROM; or
> > end the whole program of OEM product requiring OEM
support
> and actually ship
> > a Retail CD?
> > If the later - would the market stand the increase in
cost
> (passed onto the
> > consumer) for the support of all those millions and
> millions of OEM
> > customers now having to come to Microsoft ?
> >
> > If just force the OEM CD ROM in the package with the
PC -
> then interesting
> > idea.
> > --
> > Regards,
> >
> > Mike
> > --
> > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> >
> > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and
> confers no
> > rights
> >
> > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions,
please
> use these
> > newsgroups
> >
> > "Testy" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > > Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM
> program and have
> > every
> > > maker include a full CD.
> > >
> > > Testy
> > >
> > > "David Banks" > wrote in
message
> > > ...
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour
> that was intended I
> > > do
> > > > think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody
who
> has the Windows
> > > > product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is
from
> an OEM.
> > > >
> > > > All OEM support personnel that I have encountered
only
> know the basics
> > of
> > > > the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of
> and I have never
> > yet
> > > > had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in
> the UK. Both
> > Microsoft
> > > > and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from
pillar
> to post, how
> > anybody
> > > > without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the
> 'buck-passing'
> > > > atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.
> > > >
> > > > There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and
> they will probably
> > turn
> > > > out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the
originators
> message (as has
> > been
> > > > done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving
> smart, glib answers on
> > > how
> > > > stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get
> from the response by
> > > > Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if
you
> don't like it, you
> > > > know what you can do' are not in my Customer
Services
> handbook, since
> > > when
> > > > has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that
we
> can 'go
> > elsewhere'
> > > to
> > > > the average computer buyer with little knowledge of
> computing is a bit
> > > 'high
> > > > minded' of you and again only reflects the general
> perception that the
> > > > public have of the organisation.
> > > >
> > > > I always get some smart person replying to my
> enquiries pointing out the
> > > > obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them
> with the message
> > 'read
> > > my
> > > > enquiry again, you have not answered the question I
> asked'
> > > >
> > > > A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting
your
> time (and energy)
> > > but
> > > > I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now
and
> then.
> > > >
> > > > Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the
> backup program is
> > not
> > > > included on the standard XP installation!!!!
> > > >
> > > > I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have
re-written
> it using my own
> > > > Customer
> > > > Services Handbook:-
> > > >
> > > > 'Dear Neil
> > > >
> > > > I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in
> obtaining the
> > > > information you require. The Windows operating
system
> is very complex
> > and
> > > > navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can
> sometimes be
> > > frustrating
> > > > but please persevere. Here are the links where you
> will find the answers
> > > to
> > > > your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
> > > > Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all
> feedback and hope
> > that
> > > > we have gone some way to alleviating what is
obviously
> a very
> > frustrating
> > > > problem to you.
> > > > Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah
if
> you have any
> > further
> > > > queries or problems.'
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]"
> > wrote in message
> >
> > > > ...
> > > > > Neil,
> > > > >
> > > > > Comments inline
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > --
> > > > > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> > > > >
> > > > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no
warranties,
> and confers no
> > > > > rights
> > > > >
> > > > > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed
questions,
> please use these
> > > > > newsgroups
> > > > >
> > > > > "Neil Obstat"
> > wrote
> > in
> > > > > message
> 48.16...
> > > > > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to
figure
> out how the hell I
> > > am
> > > > > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your
> filthy, worthless
> > > > > > products.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]"
> > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Neil,
> > > > >
> > > > > Comments inline
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > --
> > > > > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> > > > >
> > > > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no
warranties,
> and confers no
> > > > > rights
> > > > >
> > > > > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed
questions,
> please use these
> > > > > newsgroups
> > > > >
> > > > > "Neil Obstat"
> > wrote
> > in
> > > > > message
> 48.16...
> > > > > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to
figure
> out how the hell I
> > > am
> > > > > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your
> filthy, worthless
> > > > > > products.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This is not a statement that is condusive to those
> who may to provide
> > > > > support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
> > > > >
> > > > > > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with
> its associated
> > > graphics
> > > > in
> > > > > > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web
page
> could not be
> > saved
> > > to
> > > > > > the selected location."
> > > > >
> > > > > Can you please supply which pages you are having
> problems with.
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> > > > > This creates an addtional folder below the
locvation
> you are saving to
> > > > that
> > > > > contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure
> you have permissions
> > > to
> > > > > creat this addtional folder for the page you are
> Saving.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also try the Save As single file. This produces a
> MHT file with all
> > the
> > > > > content embedded.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the sites I have tried this on the Save As
single
> file produced
> > > better
> > > > > results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked
better
> as single file)
> > > > >
> > > > > > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > > > > > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned
up
> no results. I
> > > looked
> > > > > for
> > > > > > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean,
> that's part of what
> > > the
> > > > > > error message says. It uses those very words.
I
> even checked to
> > make
> > > > > sure
> > > > > > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that
text
> would be present
> > > > > > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the
> section for Internet
> > > > Explorer
> > > > > > 6, the program that gives me the error message.
> Nope. No such
> > luck.
> > > > > > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate
> with your knowledge
> > > > base.
> > > > > > That would be helpful.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> > > > > If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> > > > > http://support.microsoft.com/
> > > > > Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database
> (Knowledge Base)
> > > > > Just leave the Select your Product as the
default -
> All Microsoft
> > Search
> > > > > topics-
> > > > > enter
> > > > > "The web page could not be saved to " in to the
For
> Solution
> > containing
> > > > > and Using ... The exact phrase entered
> > > > >
> > > > > Produces one result
> > > > > http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589
> > > > >
> > > > > Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it
> relevent to you ??
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful.
> The "selecte(oops,
> > > hang
> > > > > > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up
in
> my face WHILE I
> > WAS
> > > IN
> > > > > > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do
> that, Microsoft!)d
> > > > > location"
> > > > > > has nothing to do with the error. No matter
where
> I try to save the
> > > > page,
> > > > > > no luck. I believe, from what I read before
(from
> your knowledge
> > > base,
> > > > > > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to
do
> with an update
> > that
> > > > was
> > > > > > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I
> guess my original
> > > > > question
> > > > > > was, are you going to get around to fixing this
at
> any point? I
> > mean,
> > > I
> > > > > > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice
> feature, being able
> > to
> > > > > save
> > > > > > the occasional web page, with its graphics
intact
> and all. But it
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like
to
> know if, having
> > > > broken
> > > > > > it, and (at one time, anyway) having
acknowledged
> that you had
> > broken
> > > > it,
> > > > > > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Which pages are problematic and are any releated
to
> the KB article I
> > > > found.
> > > > >
> > > > > > And then I tried to ask you that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I went to your support page. I went to the part
> where I'm supposed
> > to
> > > > get
> > > > > > to ask you a question. But as every single
> technical operative at
> > > your
> > > > > > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz,
> this proved
> > > completely
> > > > > > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell.
> Dell's a fine company.
> > > > But
> > > > > > because I did that, you won't let me ask you
about
> the product. You
> > > > told
> > > > > > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The support for OEM products is the responsibility
> of the OEM.
> > > > > It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of
Windows
> XP on it - it is
> > up
> > > to
> > > > > Dell to provide you with support.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending
> program, did Dell? No,
> > > Dell
> > > > > did
> > > > > > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it.
> So why ask Dell?
> > > Dell
> > > > > > doesn't know what you've done.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS
and
> have access to
> > > > technical
> > > > > data that Microsoft support personnel do. In
> addition since it is an
> > > OEM
> > > > > machine and OS Dell may have modified the system
and
> as such are the
> > > only
> > > > > ones who can provide the required support.
> > > > > Dell do and can know "what we have done"
> > > > >
> > > > > > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried
> something like Linux.
> > > Other
> > > > > > people do still make operating systems out
there,
> don't they? I
> > > > might've
> > > > > > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux
or
> a Unix or some
> > such
> > > > > > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and
> since you're the big
> > > > game
> > > > > > in town I have to buy your software with the
> system. Dell has a
> > deal
> > > > with
> > > > > > you. Dell paid something for that software,
maybe
> not retail, but
> > > > > > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me
> for nothing. So if
> > I
> > > > buy
> > > > > > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm
> not asked if I
> > would
> > > > like
> > > > > > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy
> Windows that way, I
> > > > > cannot
> > > > > > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a
mite
> screwed, here.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You can purchase a device from other vendors with
> other opertaing
> > > systems
> > > > or
> > > > > non at all.
> > > > > You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an
OEM
> product on PCs
> > they
> > > > > ship.
> > > > > See comment above about OEM support.
> > > > > If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to
your
> requirements
> > > > (including)
> > > > > choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to
> go to Dell. So I
> > > > decided
> > > > > > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of
> Encarta, and I
> > installed
> > > > it.
> > > > > > It's the only software of yours I have that
isn't
> an OEM version.
> > > > Meaning
> > > > > > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN
> to purchase. There
> > > was
> > > > a
> > > > > > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM
product
> = support by OEM.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product
> ID from that. At
> > > this
> > > > > > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your
> company had any sense of
> > > > > > responsibility whatsoever for what you have
wrough
> t on the world,
> > you
> > > > > great
> > > > > > jolly megalith, you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I want you to have to read my words, because I
> have to look at yours
> > > > every
> > > > > > damn day. Generally in some sort of error
dialog.
> Or occasionally
> > on
> > > a
> > > > > > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead
of
> "Internet
> > Explorer"
> > > > > > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I
> mean instead of
> > > "Windows
> > > > > > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told
> (drumroll, please)...you
> > > don't
> > > > > > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product
ID.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But...I bought it in this country.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I
had.
> Checked once
> > again.
> > > > > > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in
> this country."
> > Okay.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the
country
> where you reside
> > ?
> > > > Was
> > > > > it a grey import ?
> > > > > If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then
we
> may have a
> > problem
> > > > > (please note the use of USA is just an example,as
> you do not state
> > where
> > > > you
> > > > > are.)
> > > > >
> > > > > > I could bore you with all the details of what I
> tried then. I went
> > > > > through
> > > > > > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I
> can call you on the
> > > > > phone!
> > > > > > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear
you
> tell me to go to
> > > Dell
> > > > > > for support on a product YOU wrote and
published.
> Cool.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM
> onto their machines
> > and
> > > > > possibly modify or augment. They then trained the
> support personnel
> > to
> > > > > provide the necessary support on the product.
> > > > > They also have routes back into us for issues they
> cannot resolve and
> > > also
> > > > > to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
> > > > >
> > > > > > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to
> one of your
> > > > "communities"
> > > > > > for support. That's where I found a really
neat-o
> looking page full
> > > of
> > > > > > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an
> advertisement. Like
> > > most
> > > > of
> > > > > > your products do, these days. Did I see any
place
> for me to submit
> > a
> > > > > > question for the consideration of the
"community?"
> I bet you can
> > > figure
> > > > > > out the answer to that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Do you mean here
> > > > >
http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
> > > > > or
> > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx
> > > > >
> > > > > Both result in Web based access to these
newsgroups.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I mean, there was a little bit of information on
> your newsgroups.
> > > > Ninety
> > > > > > trillion dollars you must've spent on that
> bloated, script-ridden,
> > > > cookie-
> > > > > > filled web page, and you send people to the
> newsgroups. Yessir,
> > > doesn't
> > > > > > get much more modern than a newsgroup.
> > > > >
> > > > > What would you prefer?
> > > > > This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer
> support community
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > technical community operate in.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > > > > > are familiar with the technology and etiquette
> required to use
> > > > newsgroups.
> > > > > > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged
peons
> don't deserve
> > > > technical
> > > > > > help, do they? They only shelled out money for
> your software, or
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > > computer which came with mandatorily-installed
> copies of some of
> > your
> > > > > > software.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > We offer technical support as detailed for retail
> customers. OEMs
> > > provide
> > > > > support for their OEM supplied products.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no technology required - we offer a Web
> interface; as well as
> > > > > advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Also on the "communities" page was a link called
> "Windows XP Support
> > > > > > Center," which lead right back to where I had
> started from an hour
> > > > before.
> > > > > > Elegant.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes - since some people arrive at the communities
> via other routes and
> > > > then
> > > > > may want to search the knowledgebase or access
other
> support services.
> > > > The
> > > > > web is not a linear construct people enter from
> various directions.
> > > > >
> > > > > > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming
article
> being hyped!
> > > "Coming
> > > > > > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed
> Bott explains how
> > to
> > > > use
> > > > > > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party
> back up tools to
> > > > protect
> > > > > > essential data." Well, that would have been
> useful before last
> > week,
> > > > when
> > > > > > the partition table on my main data drive
decided
> to go south and
> > take
> > > > out
> > > > > > a year's worth of projects for school and some
> nice, irreplaceable
> > > > > personal
> > > > > > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too.
I
> mean, I hadn't
> > even
> > > > > > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy,
> and you don't need
> > me
> > > > > > bothering you with my little problems.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If you have lost a significant amount of important
> data because you
> > made
> > > > no
> > > > > effort to protect it through the use of
appropriate
> software (backup
> > or
> > > > > otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
> > > > >
> > > > > > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever
> since that the drive
> > > "is
> > > > > > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate,
> but that's okay
> > > because
> > > > > I'm
> > > > > > smart enough to figure out the real problem
> myself. I like knowing
> > I
> > > > can
> > > > > > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ok
> > > > >
> > > > > > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you
> with questions, you
> > > > > > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood
> and 35 stellar
> > > > references
> > > > > > just so I can get to the point of typing in a
> Product ID you won't
> > > > > > support...in this country. I had to create a
> stinking Hotmail
> > account
> > > > > just
> > > > > > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even
> take a look at the
> > > > useless
> > > > > > support page that wound up helping me not one
> whit. (A Passport ID
> > > > which
> > > > > > is now linked to my user account on this
computer.
> Super. Thanks
> > for
> > > > > > that.) That, of course, involved trudging
through
> 15 pages of
> > "which
> > > of
> > > > > > these newsletters would you like to subscribe
to"
> and "please tell
> > us
> > > > all
> > > > > > your hobbies." So I can get an email account.
> (But not one with
> > > > > > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess
I
> could use that to
> > > > screw
> > > > > > people, and that job's been filled already.
That,
> or else my name
> > is
> > > > > > really William Gates, although surely there
could
> only be one in the
> > > > whole
> > > > > > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But, the delay of wading through those forms
> aside, I'm glad you've
> > > > taken
> > > > > > such a profound interest in me as a person that
> you would have me
> > > click
> > > > > > inside little square boxes in order that you may
> learn about the
> > > > > > intricacies that make up my fascinating and
> variegated life. You
> > > really
> > > > > do
> > > > > > care!
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes - we do.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to
> steal my very soul.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you,
> Microsoft?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Neil Obstat
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date:
> 7/10/2003
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[D.Currie]

Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs have to
support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell OEM. As a small
system builder, my customers can come in and ask me questions face-to-face,
and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get plenty of calls from people
who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get an answer.

Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets, and have
no intention or ability to answer questions.

I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.

But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to give the
technical support they're supposed to. They aren't footing the cost for
proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which is fine for the
customer until they need help. And in the meantime, I'm providing free tech
support in the hopes that I'll get work from that person in the meantime.

"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message
...
> "Testy" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have
> every
> > maker include a full CD.
>
> Testy,
>
> Is that just force the OEM to provide a full white box disk OEM CD ROM; or
> end the whole program of OEM product requiring OEM support and actually
ship
> a Retail CD?
> If the later - would the market stand the increase in cost (passed onto
the
> consumer) for the support of all those millions and millions of OEM
> customers now having to come to Microsoft ?
>
> If just force the OEM CD ROM in the package with the PC - then interesting
> idea.
> --
> Regards,
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights
>
> Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> newsgroups
>
> "Testy" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have
> every
> > maker include a full CD.
> >
> > Testy
> >
> > "David Banks" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was intended
I
> > do
> > > think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the Windows
> > > product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM.
> > >
> > > All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the basics
> of
> > > the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have never
> yet
> > > had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both
> Microsoft
> > > and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how
> anybody
> > > without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing'
> > > atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.
> > >
> > > There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will probably
> turn
> > > out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as has
> been
> > > done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib answers
on
> > how
> > > stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the response
by
> > > Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it,
you
> > > know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, since
> > when
> > > has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go
> elsewhere'
> > to
> > > the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a bit
> > 'high
> > > minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that the
> > > public have of the organisation.
> > >
> > > I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out
the
> > > obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message
> 'read
> > my
> > > enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked'
> > >
> > > A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and
energy)
> > but
> > > I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then.
> > >
> > > Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is
> not
> > > included on the standard XP installation!!!!
> > >
> > > I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own
> > > Customer
> > > Services Handbook:-
> > >
> > > 'Dear Neil
> > >
> > > I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
> > > information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex
> and
> > > navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be
> > frustrating
> > > but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the
answers
> > to
> > > your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
> > > Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope
> that
> > > we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very
> frustrating
> > > problem to you.
> > > Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any
> further
> > > queries or problems.'
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in
message
>
> > > ...
> > > > Neil,
> > > >
> > > > Comments inline
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > --
> > > > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> > > >
> > > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> > > > rights
> > > >
> > > > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> > > > newsgroups
> > > >
> > > > "Neil Obstat" > wrote
> in
> > > > message 48.16...
> > > > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell
I
> > am
> > > > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > > > > products.
> > > > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in
message
> > > ...
> > > > Neil,
> > > >
> > > > Comments inline
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > --
> > > > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> > > >
> > > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> > > > rights
> > > >
> > > > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> > > > newsgroups
> > > >
> > > > "Neil Obstat" > wrote
> in
> > > > message 48.16...
> > > > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell
I
> > am
> > > > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > > > > products.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to
provide
> > > > support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
> > > >
> > > > > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated
> > graphics
> > > in
> > > > > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be
> saved
> > to
> > > > > the selected location."
> > > >
> > > > Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
> > > >
> > > > Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> > > > This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving
to
> > > that
> > > > contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have
permissions
> > to
> > > > creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.
> > > >
> > > > Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all
> the
> > > > content embedded.
> > > >
> > > > On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced
> > better
> > > > results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file)
> > > >
> > > > > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > > > > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I
> > looked
> > > > for
> > > > > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of
what
> > the
> > > > > error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to
> make
> > > > sure
> > > > > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
> > > > > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet
> > > Explorer
> > > > > 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such
> luck.
> > > > > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your
knowledge
> > > base.
> > > > > That would be helpful.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> > > > If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> > > > http://support.microsoft.com/
> > > > Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
> > > > Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft
> Search
> > > > topics-
> > > > enter
> > > > "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution
> containing
> > > > and Using ... The exact phrase entered
> > > >
> > > > Produces one result
> > > > http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589
> > > >
> > > > Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you
??
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The
"selecte(oops,
> > hang
> > > > > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I
> WAS
> > IN
> > > > > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d
> > > > location"
> > > > > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save
the
> > > page,
> > > > > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge
> > base,
> > > > > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update
> that
> > > was
> > > > > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original
> > > > question
> > > > > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I
> mean,
> > I
> > > > > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being
able
> to
> > > > save
> > > > > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it
> > > doesn't
> > > > > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having
> > > broken
> > > > > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had
> broken
> > > it,
> > > > > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I
> > > found.
> > > >
> > > > > And then I tried to ask you that.
> > > > >
> > > > > I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm
supposed
> to
> > > get
> > > > > to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at
> > your
> > > > > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved
> > completely
> > > > > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine
company.
> > > But
> > > > > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product.
You
> > > told
> > > > > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> > > > It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is
> up
> > to
> > > > Dell to provide you with support.
> > > >
> > > > > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No,
> > Dell
> > > > did
> > > > > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell?
> > Dell
> > > > > doesn't know what you've done.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to
> > > technical
> > > > data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is
an
> > OEM
> > > > machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the
> > only
> > > > ones who can provide the required support.
> > > > Dell do and can know "what we have done"
> > > >
> > > > > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux.
> > Other
> > > > > people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I
> > > might've
> > > > > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some
> such
> > > > > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the
big
> > > game
> > > > > in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a
> deal
> > > with
> > > > > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
> > > > > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So
if
> I
> > > buy
> > > > > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I
> would
> > > like
> > > > > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way,
I
> > > > cannot
> > > > > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing
> > systems
> > > or
> > > > non at all.
> > > > You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs
> they
> > > > ship.
> > > > See comment above about OEM support.
> > > > If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements
> > > (including)
> > > > choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
> > > >
> > > > > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I
> > > decided
> > > > > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I
> installed
> > > it.
> > > > > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version.
> > > Meaning
> > > > > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase.
There
> > was
> > > a
> > > > > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by
OEM.
> > > >
> > > > > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At
> > this
> > > > > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense
of
> > > > > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world,
> you
> > > > great
> > > > > jolly megalith, you.
> > > > >
> > > > > I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at
yours
> > > every
> > > > > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or
occasionally
> on
> > a
> > > > > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet
> Explorer"
> > > > > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of
> > "Windows
> > > > > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you
> > don't
> > > > > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> > > > >
> > > > > But...I bought it in this country.
> > > > >
> > > > > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once
> again.
> > > > > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country."
> Okay.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you
reside
> ?
> > > Was
> > > > it a grey import ?
> > > > If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a
> problem
> > > > (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state
> where
> > > you
> > > > are.)
> > > >
> > > > > I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I
went
> > > > through
> > > > > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on
the
> > > > phone!
> > > > > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go
to
> > Dell
> > > > > for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines
> and
> > > > possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel
> to
> > > > provide the necessary support on the product.
> > > > They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve
and
> > also
> > > > to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
> > > >
> > > > > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your
> > > "communities"
> > > > > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page
full
> > of
> > > > > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like
> > most
> > > of
> > > > > your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to
submit
> a
> > > > > question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can
> > figure
> > > > > out the answer to that.
> > > > >
> > > > Do you mean here
> > > > http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
> > > > or
> > > > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx
> > > >
> > > > Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
> > > >
> > > > > I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups.
> > > Ninety
> > > > > trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden,
> > > cookie-
> > > > > filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir,
> > doesn't
> > > > > get much more modern than a newsgroup.
> > > >
> > > > What would you prefer?
> > > > This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community
> that
> > > the
> > > > technical community operate in.
> > > >
> > > > > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > > > > are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use
> > > newsgroups.
> > > > > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve
> > > technical
> > > > > help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or
> for
> > a
> > > > > computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of
> your
> > > > > software.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs
> > provide
> > > > support for their OEM supplied products.
> > > >
> > > > There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well
as
> > > > advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
> > > >
> > > > > Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP
Support
> > > > > Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour
> > > before.
> > > > > Elegant.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes
and
> > > then
> > > > may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support
services.
> > > The
> > > > web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.
> > > >
> > > > > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped!
> > "Coming
> > > > > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how
> to
> > > use
> > > > > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to
> > > protect
> > > > > essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last
> week,
> > > when
> > > > > the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and
> take
> > > out
> > > > > a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable
> > > > personal
> > > > > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't
> even
> > > > > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't
need
> me
> > > > > bothering you with my little problems.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you
> made
> > > no
> > > > effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup
> or
> > > > otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
> > > >
> > > > > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the
drive
> > "is
> > > > > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay
> > because
> > > > I'm
> > > > > smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like
knowing
> I
> > > can
> > > > > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ok
> > > >
> > > > > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions,
you
> > > > > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar
> > > references
> > > > > just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
> > > > > support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail
> account
> > > > just
> > > > > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the
> > > useless
> > > > > support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport
ID
> > > which
> > > > > is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks
> for
> > > > > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of
> "which
> > of
> > > > > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell
> us
> > > all
> > > > > your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
> > > > > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that
to
> > > screw
> > > > > people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name
> is
> > > > > really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in
the
> > > whole
> > > > > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> > > > >
> > > > > But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad
you've
> > > taken
> > > > > such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me
> > click
> > > > > inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> > > > > intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You
> > really
> > > > do
> > > > > care!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes - we do.
> > > >
> > > > > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
> > > > >
> > > > > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
> > > > >
> > > > > Neil Obstat
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 7/10/2003
> >
> >
>
>

[Kadaitcha Man]

Graham wrote:

> Did you go and read the supplied info at the link I posted. It clearly
> states what can and cannot be done with an OEM disc.

You total ****ing idiotic ****-headed pillock. You can't just post a ****ing
link then tell people to go and read it. You have to quote the text and
argue why it supports your position, you stupid ****ing ****. Kindergarten
kids debate better than that, you ****witted ****.

The earth is flat: www.flat-earth.org/ read the link. The proof is there.

Get the idea, you ****ing fool? No? I figured as much.

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

[Bill Drake]

D.Currie wrote:
> Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs
> have to support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell OEM.

There is no way to enforce this rule. It is always possible for the
unethical provider to come up with a plausible excuse for non-support.


> As a small system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
> questions face-to-face, and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also
> get plenty of calls from people who have bought from the big guys,
> and they can't get an answer.

And as a result, the unethical providers are dumping their support
costs on your back -- increasing their profits at your expense. Their
shareholder dividends are the direct result of your altruism -- and this
is a very conscious and deliberate policy on their part IMO.



> Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,
> and have no intention or ability to answer questions.

See above. Another example of the same. You've just described
simply a more-obvious example...


> I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
> customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.

No. Many customers are just as unethical as the abovementioned
providers. They'll rape you and leave you freezing -- pay you 5 cents
on the dollar and scream with outrage at that -- and drive your
business into the ground.

Save your time and energy for clients who come to you straight-out
looking for value and willing to pay a fair price in the first place.
These are the only people worth your time and energy.



> But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to give
> the technical support they're supposed to. They aren't footing the
> cost for proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which is
> fine for the customer until they need help. And in the meantime, I'm
> providing free tech support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
> person in the meantime.

You're a fool to give these people the time of day.



>
> "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote...
>> "Testy" > wrote...
>>> Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and
>>> have every maker include a full CD.

Agreed.

I am tired of this industry's inane appeals to the
lowest-common-denominator cheapthink-element in our society.

The braindead marketeering policies currently in effect are a
*very efficient* way to ensure that *anyone* with enough brains
to amass the cash to buy a PC will *surely* avoid buying one
from any of the common suppliers.

And now you know why we're having this slump -- and why it
won't go away until we replace the airheads with engineers
and start producing computers with solid performance instead
of stalling and sputtering insanely unreliable junk.


Best I can do for now. <tm>


Bill

[Ted]

"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message =
...
> I knew you weren't talkin' about me :-)
>=20

You're a ****ing cockeyed, arse ****ed, pillocking, bint bred, gormless =
**** brain!

This bitch heaps praise on you, as her code of ethics, for you not using =
the expletives that she "would assume" you'd use (in her self-honouring =
mind) to the OPs complaint letter. Yet you (at/or MS) remove(s) messages =
that you('d) otherwise deem offensive. This **** regularly ("regularly =
being 50-100 times/day) calls others, ****wits, cretins, morons, etc. =
Yet you shine through MS customer service excellence, by telling the OP =
INUT, that he's ****ed into a cocked hat, AFAMSIC, by then acknowledging =
a known ****'s praise on you and ignoring real customer concerns.

[Gail]

I think Ted has a few issues - too bad he doesn't have anything to say from the
other orifice in his body



"Ted" <"""""""""""""""> wrote in message
s.com...

"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message
...
> I knew you weren't talkin' about me :-)
>

You're a ****ing cockeyed, arse ****ed, pillocking, bint bred, gormless ****
brain!

This bitch heaps praise on you, as her code of ethics, for you not using the
expletives that she "would assume" you'd use (in her self-honouring mind) to the
OPs complaint letter. Yet you (at/or MS) remove(s) messages that you('d)
otherwise deem offensive. This **** regularly ("regularly being 50-100
times/day) calls others, ****wits, cretins, morons, etc. Yet you shine through
MS customer service excellence, by telling the OP INUT, that he's ****ed into a
cocked hat, AFAMSIC, by then acknowledging a known ****'s praise on you and
ignoring real customer concerns.

[Ted]

"Gail" > wrote in message =
...
> I think Ted has a few issues - too bad he doesn't have anything to =
say from the
> other orifice in his body
>=20

You mean, you get a better understanding of these NGs, while you =
aspirate the ferocious gases released out from between the cheeks of =
one's bums?=20

By the way, you're a top-posting bint too!

[Gail]

Actually I was inferring that you are spouting from your bum and the result is
quite nauseating.

Gee thanks for pointing out that I am a top poster -- I had not noticed that!
Wow -- the observation prowness that you profess. <I bow low in your presence)


"Ted" <"""""""""""""""> wrote in message
s.com...

"Gail" > wrote in message
...
> I think Ted has a few issues - too bad he doesn't have anything to say from
the
> other orifice in his body
>

You mean, you get a better understanding of these NGs, while you aspirate the
ferocious gases released out from between the cheeks of one's bums?

By the way, you're a top-posting bint too!

[D.Currie]

"Bill Drake" > wrote in message
...
> D.Currie wrote:
> > Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs
> > have to support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell OEM.
>
> There is no way to enforce this rule. It is always possible for the
> unethical provider to come up with a plausible excuse for non-support.
>
>
> > As a small system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
> > questions face-to-face, and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also
> > get plenty of calls from people who have bought from the big guys,
> > and they can't get an answer.
>
> And as a result, the unethical providers are dumping their support
> costs on your back -- increasing their profits at your expense. Their
> shareholder dividends are the direct result of your altruism -- and this
> is a very conscious and deliberate policy on their part IMO.
>
>
>
> > Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,
> > and have no intention or ability to answer questions.
>
> See above. Another example of the same. You've just described
> simply a more-obvious example...
>
>
> > I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
> > customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.
>
> No. Many customers are just as unethical as the abovementioned
> providers. They'll rape you and leave you freezing -- pay you 5 cents
> on the dollar and scream with outrage at that -- and drive your
> business into the ground.
>
> Save your time and energy for clients who come to you straight-out
> looking for value and willing to pay a fair price in the first place.
> These are the only people worth your time and energy.
>
>
>
> > But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to give
> > the technical support they're supposed to. They aren't footing the
> > cost for proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which is
> > fine for the customer until they need help. And in the meantime, I'm
> > providing free tech support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
> > person in the meantime.
>
> You're a fool to give these people the time of day.
>

The advice I offer on the phone costs me as little as what responding on
these newsgroups does. And the ones on the phone have the potential of
becoming customers. Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come
in for service after calling, since some people, even with instruction, are
skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And I have quite a
number of customers who ignore their warranty and bring the computer to me
for repair. Or I diagnose they problem, they get parts under warranty, and I
replace them. So it's not all bad.

As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get all of the
ones who don't provide support, but they could crack down on the most
blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be easy for them to muscle
companies like Dell and Gateway and the like. When people call for support
and day, "Dell won't help me" they've got the evidence right there.

Of course, they won't do it, but it would be nice.

[Mister Charlie]

"Ted" <"""""""""""""""> wrote in message
s.com...

"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message
...
> I knew you weren't talkin' about me :-)
>

You're a ****ing cockeyed, arse ****ed, pillocking, bint bred, gormless
**** brain!

This one sentence clearly defines what and who YOU are. PLONK.

[Alun Jones [MS MVP]]

In article >, "D.Currie"
> wrote:
>The advice I offer on the phone costs me as little as what responding on
>these newsgroups does. And the ones on the phone have the potential of
>becoming customers.

A lot of people make this same assumption when posting to Usenet - that they
are engaging in a dialogue, that only their correspondents are involved in.
For every person that writes a post in Usenet, there are at least a dozen,
up to several hundred, that read that post. The advice you offer here may
be more valuable than advice you offer over the phone, which is very
definitely a one-to-one medium.

>Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come
>in for service after calling, since some people, even with instruction, are
>skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And I have quite a
>number of customers who ignore their warranty and bring the computer to me
>for repair. Or I diagnose they problem, they get parts under warranty, and I
>replace them. So it's not all bad.

There's a lot to be said for treating everyone nicely - it's a great way to
attract new business. "I shan't buy my computer from the company that
treated me like an irritation even when they were supposed to be obliged to
help me; I'll buy it from the company that treated me like a valued customer
even though I hadn't bought anything from them yet". Of course, there has
to be some balance, otherwise you get freeloaders taking advantage of you,
or even just a wealth of well-intentioned newcomers who just haven't got
around to buying from you, and put you in the red as a result.

>As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get all of the
>ones who don't provide support, but they could crack down on the most
>blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be easy for them to muscle
>companies like Dell and Gateway and the like. When people call for support
>and day, "Dell won't help me" they've got the evidence right there.

Of course, the problem with that is that it takes a lot of effort to allege
contract breach, and when you do, it's not generally a quick or satisfactory
solution that comes out of the other side.

Alun.
~~~~

[Bill Drake]

D.Currie wrote:
> "Bill Drake" > wrote...
>> D.Currie wrote:
>>> Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs
>>> have to support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell OEM.
>>
>> There is no way to enforce this rule. It is always possible for the
>> unethical provider to come up with a plausible excuse for
>> non-support.
>>
>>
>>> As a small system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
>>> questions face-to-face, and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also
>>> get plenty of calls from people who have bought from the big guys,
>>> and they can't get an answer.
>>
>> And as a result, the unethical providers are dumping their support
>> costs on your back -- increasing their profits at your expense.
>> Their shareholder dividends are the direct result of your altruism
>> -- and this is a very conscious and deliberate policy on their part
>> IMO.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,
>>> and have no intention or ability to answer questions.
>>
>> See above. Another example of the same. You've just described
>> simply a more-obvious example...
>>
>>
>>> I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
>>> customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.
>>
>> No. Many customers are just as unethical as the abovementioned
>> providers. They'll rape you and leave you freezing -- pay you 5
>> cents on the dollar and scream with outrage at that -- and drive
>> your business into the ground.
>>
>> Save your time and energy for clients who come to you straight-out
>> looking for value and willing to pay a fair price in the first place.
>> These are the only people worth your time and energy.
>>
>>
>>
>>> But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to give
>>> the technical support they're supposed to. They aren't footing the
>>> cost for proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which is
>>> fine for the customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
>>> I'm providing free tech support in the hopes that I'll get work
>>> from that person in the meantime.
>>
>> You're a fool to give these people the time of day.
>>
>
> The advice I offer on the phone costs me as little as what
> responding on these newsgroups does. And the ones on the
> phone have the potential of becoming customers.

If you are successful at this, you will find yourself spending more
and more time giving "free" advice to these people. As long as
you *have* free time -- this is fine.

It's when you get busy and start saying things like "I can't help you
now" -- that you will find there are unreasonable and loutish clients
who are simply rude and demanding -- even when you are being a
"nice guy".


>Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come in for
>service after calling, since some people, even with instruction,
>are skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And
>I have quite a number of customers who ignore their warranty
>and bring the computer to me for repair. Or I diagnose they
>problem, they get parts under warranty, and I replace them.
>So it's not all bad.

Fine. They're paying you for this service.



>As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get
>all of the ones who don't provide support, but they could crack
>down on the most blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be
>easy for them to muscle companies like Dell and Gateway and
>the like. When people call for support and day, "Dell won't help
>me" they've got the evidence right there.
>
> Of course, they won't do it, but it would be nice.

I noticed you didn't quote the further paragraphs in my previous
post. Nor did you comment on that. Yet you made the above
remark. I find that sad.

The "Of course, they won't do it" is *intimately" tied into the whole
airhead marketing-mentality avoidance-of-responsibility mindset
that dumps marketeer-created problems into other people's laps.

And your high-minded "noble" attitude to the problem is part of
the reason this silly nonsense continues.

Marketeers need to be ground up, spit out and pounded into
the ground for turning this business into a circus that only a fool
could love.



Best I can do for now. <tm>


Bill

[jackfrost64]

With a mouth like yours you should not only be banned from this newsgroup
but from The internet as a whole.!!! idiot



"Mister Charlie" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ted" <"""""""""""""""> wrote in message
> s.com...
>
> "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I knew you weren't talkin' about me :-)
> >
>
> You're a ****ing cockeyed, arse ****ed, pillocking, bint bred, gormless
> **** brain!
>
> This one sentence clearly defines what and who YOU are. PLONK.
>
>

[D.Currie]

"Alun Jones [MS MVP]" > wrote in message
. ..
> In article >, "D.Currie"
> > wrote:
> >The advice I offer on the phone costs me as little as what responding on
> >these newsgroups does. And the ones on the phone have the potential of
> >becoming customers.
>
> A lot of people make this same assumption when posting to Usenet - that
they
> are engaging in a dialogue, that only their correspondents are involved
in.
> For every person that writes a post in Usenet, there are at least a dozen,
> up to several hundred, that read that post. The advice you offer here may
> be more valuable than advice you offer over the phone, which is very
> definitely a one-to-one medium.

I wasn't commenting on how many people get helped per message, just that
helping on the newsgroup and helping on the phone "cost" me the same as far
as my effort is concerned. And the only reason I said that was because
someone else had called me a fool for helping people who aren't customers.
The newsgroups is less likely to yield paying customers, but I do it anyway,
as do many others.

>
> >Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come
> >in for service after calling, since some people, even with instruction,
are
> >skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And I have quite
a
> >number of customers who ignore their warranty and bring the computer to
me
> >for repair. Or I diagnose they problem, they get parts under warranty,
and I
> >replace them. So it's not all bad.
>
> There's a lot to be said for treating everyone nicely - it's a great way
to
> attract new business. "I shan't buy my computer from the company that
> treated me like an irritation even when they were supposed to be obliged
to
> help me; I'll buy it from the company that treated me like a valued
customer
> even though I hadn't bought anything from them yet". Of course, there has
> to be some balance, otherwise you get freeloaders taking advantage of you,
> or even just a wealth of well-intentioned newcomers who just haven't got
> around to buying from you, and put you in the red as a result.

There's always a point where I can say that I don't have time to chat, or
that the problem is not one that can be fixed easily over the phone. But
there's always some lagtime in the day, and it's better to be doing
something than nothing.

>
> >As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get all of
the
> >ones who don't provide support, but they could crack down on the most
> >blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be easy for them to muscle
> >companies like Dell and Gateway and the like. When people call for
support
> >and day, "Dell won't help me" they've got the evidence right there.
>
> Of course, the problem with that is that it takes a lot of effort to
allege
> contract breach, and when you do, it's not generally a quick or
satisfactory
> solution that comes out of the other side.

Suppose so. The ones I'd really like to hang are the ones who sell supposed
"full" versions of the OS, then when the customer gets it, it's OEM, it
won't do an upgrade, they can't get support for MS, and they usually can't
return the product.

[D.Currie]

"Bill Drake" > wrote in message
...
> D.Currie wrote:
> > "Bill Drake" > wrote...
> >> D.Currie wrote:
> >>> Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs
> >>> have to support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell OEM.
> >>
> >> There is no way to enforce this rule. It is always possible for the
> >> unethical provider to come up with a plausible excuse for
> >> non-support.
> >>
> >>
> >>> As a small system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
> >>> questions face-to-face, and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also
> >>> get plenty of calls from people who have bought from the big guys,
> >>> and they can't get an answer.
> >>
> >> And as a result, the unethical providers are dumping their support
> >> costs on your back -- increasing their profits at your expense.
> >> Their shareholder dividends are the direct result of your altruism
> >> -- and this is a very conscious and deliberate policy on their part
> >> IMO.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,
> >>> and have no intention or ability to answer questions.
> >>
> >> See above. Another example of the same. You've just described
> >> simply a more-obvious example...
> >>
> >>
> >>> I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
> >>> customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.
> >>
> >> No. Many customers are just as unethical as the abovementioned
> >> providers. They'll rape you and leave you freezing -- pay you 5
> >> cents on the dollar and scream with outrage at that -- and drive
> >> your business into the ground.
> >>
> >> Save your time and energy for clients who come to you straight-out
> >> looking for value and willing to pay a fair price in the first place.
> >> These are the only people worth your time and energy.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to give
> >>> the technical support they're supposed to. They aren't footing the
> >>> cost for proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which is
> >>> fine for the customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
> >>> I'm providing free tech support in the hopes that I'll get work
> >>> from that person in the meantime.
> >>
> >> You're a fool to give these people the time of day.
> >>
> >
> > The advice I offer on the phone costs me as little as what
> > responding on these newsgroups does. And the ones on the
> > phone have the potential of becoming customers.
>
> If you are successful at this, you will find yourself spending more
> and more time giving "free" advice to these people. As long as
> you *have* free time -- this is fine.

I've owned the store for 6 years, and I've managed to work it out. Some
things can't easily be solved over the phone, and some people should not
stick their hands inside their computers. In six years, I've had very few
people who simply waste my time, and if I have other things that need to be
done, that's what I do. If it's a problem that intrigues me, or a person the
I enjoy helping, it's my time to waste.

>
> It's when you get busy and start saying things like "I can't help you
> now" -- that you will find there are unreasonable and loutish clients
> who are simply rude and demanding -- even when you are being a
> "nice guy".

I've done that. No one's gotten rude or demanding.

>
>
> >Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come in for
> >service after calling, since some people, even with instruction,
> >are skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And
> >I have quite a number of customers who ignore their warranty
> >and bring the computer to me for repair. Or I diagnose they
> >problem, they get parts under warranty, and I replace them.
> >So it's not all bad.
>
> Fine. They're paying you for this service.
>

And many have come to me because they called first, and I offered some
simple suggestions. If it was something they couldn't do, or didn't work,
they bring the work to me. It doesn't always happen, but we also get a lot
of referrals from those sorts of people because we're not rude when people
call with questions.
>
>
> >As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get
> >all of the ones who don't provide support, but they could crack
> >down on the most blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be
> >easy for them to muscle companies like Dell and Gateway and
> >the like. When people call for support and day, "Dell won't help
> >me" they've got the evidence right there.
> >
> > Of course, they won't do it, but it would be nice.
>
> I noticed you didn't quote the further paragraphs in my previous
> post. Nor did you comment on that. Yet you made the above
> remark. I find that sad.
>

I snipped after Mike B's header as that seemed to be a response to what he
said. Why you find that sad, I don't know, as now that I've looked back on
it, you snipped all of his post and responded to Testy's one line. As far as
my not commenting on it, this "marketeer" thing seems to be one of your
personal hotspots, which is fine. But I tend to respond to things that
either I can help with or that I have a comment about because it interests
and/or amuses me.

I'm sure that you also pick and choose what you respond to.

> The "Of course, they won't do it" is *intimately" tied into the whole
> airhead marketing-mentality avoidance-of-responsibility mindset
> that dumps marketeer-created problems into other people's laps.
>
> And your high-minded "noble" attitude to the problem is part of
> the reason this silly nonsense continues.

Oh, I doubt that I'm being noble at all. I help non-customers on the phone
because I find that it's a good way to turn a percentage of them into
customers. If I look at what it costs me to answers those questions vs. what
it costs me for print advertising, then look at the number of customers each
gets me, the "being nice to people" on the phone gets me more customers.

As far as answering questions on the newsgroup, it's a great way to learn
what sorts of problems other people are having on their computers, so that
when I run across the same issue with a customer's computer, I have some
ideas what to look for. It's certainly more interesting than memorizing the
knowledge base.

>
> Marketeers need to be ground up, spit out and pounded into
> the ground for turning this business into a circus that only a fool
> could love.

Well, you've already called me a fool, so there you have it.

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the software" or is
that support if any comes from the OEM and not Microsoft.
The real fault may be that the customer is not informed why the OEM is
cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes many consumers
when they think they see a bargain and a not so informative
salesperson.
Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could be modified
to show it, however the package is not always seen by the consumer.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/newsgroups/setup.asp
Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.


"D.Currie" > wrote in message
...
> Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs
have to
> support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell OEM. As a
small
> system builder, my customers can come in and ask me questions
face-to-face,
> and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get plenty of calls
from people
> who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get an answer.
>
> Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,
and have
> no intention or ability to answer questions.
>
> I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
> customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.
>
> But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to give
the
> technical support they're supposed to. They aren't footing the cost
for
> proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which is fine for
the
> customer until they need help. And in the meantime, I'm providing
free tech
> support in the hopes that I'll get work from that person in the
meantime.

[D.Currie]

The problem may also be that not everyone who sells OEM software has an OEM
agreement with MS. Somewhere I have a document that says what I'm supposed
to do for the end user, and that includes providing support. Among other
things.

OTOH if a person buys OEM software independent of a system, he is probably
considered the system builder, and the seller is acting as a distributor
(albeit not one of MSs authorized distributors; another problem). As an OEM
with an agreement with MS, I get support from MS, but that individual who
buys one copy on the 'net doesn't get support as he's not in the program.

Another thing is that some people don't know where the line is between
technical support and training. And they aren't clear where they should go
for support, so they look in all the wrong places and get frustrated. Many
people think the system builder should be responsible for everything that
goes into the computer, and are quite surprised when Dell or whoever won't
troubleshoot their printers or games or obscure software.

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" > wrote in message
...
> But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the software" or is
> that support if any comes from the OEM and not Microsoft.
> The real fault may be that the customer is not informed why the OEM is
> cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
> Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes many consumers
> when they think they see a bargain and a not so informative
> salesperson.
> Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could be modified
> to show it, however the package is not always seen by the consumer.
>
> --
> Jupiter Jones [MVP]
> An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/newsgroups/setup.asp
> Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
>
>
> "D.Currie" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs
> have to
> > support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell OEM. As a
> small
> > system builder, my customers can come in and ask me questions
> face-to-face,
> > and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get plenty of calls
> from people
> > who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get an answer.
> >
> > Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,
> and have
> > no intention or ability to answer questions.
> >
> > I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
> > customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.
> >
> > But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to give
> the
> > technical support they're supposed to. They aren't footing the cost
> for
> > proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which is fine for
> the
> > customer until they need help. And in the meantime, I'm providing
> free tech
> > support in the hopes that I'll get work from that person in the
> meantime.
>
>

[Bill Drake]

D.Currie wrote:
> "Bill Drake" > wrote...
>> D.Currie wrote:
>>> "Bill Drake" > wrote...
>>>> D.Currie wrote:
>>>>> Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs
>>>>> have to support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell
>>>>> OEM.
>>>>
>>>> There is no way to enforce this rule. It is always possible for
>>>> the unethical provider to come up with a plausible excuse for
>>>> non-support.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As a small system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
>>>>> questions face-to-face, and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I
>>>>> also get plenty of calls from people who have bought from the big
>>>>> guys, and they can't get an answer.
>>>>
>>>> And as a result, the unethical providers are dumping their support
>>>> costs on your back -- increasing their profits at your expense.
>>>> Their shareholder dividends are the direct result of your altruism
>>>> -- and this is a very conscious and deliberate policy on their part
>>>> IMO.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,
>>>>> and have no intention or ability to answer questions.
>>>>
>>>> See above. Another example of the same. You've just described
>>>> simply a more-obvious example...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
>>>>> customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.
>>>>
>>>> No. Many customers are just as unethical as the abovementioned
>>>> providers. They'll rape you and leave you freezing -- pay you 5
>>>> cents on the dollar and scream with outrage at that -- and drive
>>>> your business into the ground.
>>>>
>>>> Save your time and energy for clients who come to you straight-out
>>>> looking for value and willing to pay a fair price in the first
>>>> place. These are the only people worth your time and energy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to
>>>>> give the technical support they're supposed to. They aren't
>>>>> footing the cost for proper support, so they sell their stuff
>>>>> cheap, which is fine for the customer until they need help. And
>>>>> in the meantime,
>>>>> I'm providing free tech support in the hopes that I'll get work
>>>>> from that person in the meantime.
>>>>
>>>> You're a fool to give these people the time of day.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The advice I offer on the phone costs me as little as what
>>> responding on these newsgroups does. And the ones on the
>>> phone have the potential of becoming customers.
>>
>> If you are successful at this, you will find yourself spending more
>> and more time giving "free" advice to these people. As long as
>> you *have* free time -- this is fine.
>
> I've owned the store for 6 years, and I've managed to work it out.
> Some things can't easily be solved over the phone, and some people
> should not stick their hands inside their computers. In six years,
> I've had very few people who simply waste my time, and if I have
> other things that need to be done, that's what I do. If it's a
> problem that intrigues me, or a person the I enjoy helping, it's my
> time to waste.

Agreed. And if you've managed to stay in business for 6 years,
then obviously you've managed to find a way to balance your time
between altruistic behaviour and stuff that pays the bills.



>> It's when you get busy and start saying things like "I can't help you
>> now" -- that you will find there are unreasonable and loutish clients
>> who are simply rude and demanding -- even when you are being a
>> "nice guy".
>
> I've done that. No one's gotten rude or demanding.

My own personal experience in the business -- along with the experience
of many of the dealers with whom I associate -- has been the complete
opposite. The vast majority of people in the Computer Industry I've
talked to in any of the major metropolitan centres in North America tell
me monotonously-similar stories.

I am *really* pleased this hasn't happened to you. I am also *very*
surprised this hasn't happened to you. All things considered -- I'd move
wherever you are in a nanosecond and work there happily... <grin>


>>> Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come in for
>>> service after calling, since some people, even with instruction,
>>> are skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And
>>> I have quite a number of customers who ignore their warranty
>>> and bring the computer to me for repair. Or I diagnose they
>>> problem, they get parts under warranty, and I replace them.
>>> So it's not all bad.
>>
>> Fine. They're paying you for this service.
>>
>
> And many have come to me because they called first, and I offered
> some simple suggestions. If it was something they couldn't do, or didn't
> work, they bring the work to me. It doesn't always happen, but we
> also get a lot of referrals from those sorts of people because we're
> not rude when people call with questions.

And that's simply good business practice. So, if that's good business
practice, then why don't Dell, Gateway, HP, IBM, or MS follow those
procedures? Because they cost more money than dumping the process
on the backs of others.

And this simply encourages an irresponsible attitude on the part of
*everyone* in the business -- and that irresponsible attitude turns
broken hardware and software into a way of life that makes computers
so frustrating and unrewarding that *fewer and fewer* use PCs willingly
anymore.

And that's why we're in this slump.


>>> As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get
>>> all of the ones who don't provide support, but they could crack
>>> down on the most blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be
>>> easy for them to muscle companies like Dell and Gateway and
>>> the like. When people call for support and day, "Dell won't help
>>> me" they've got the evidence right there.
>>>
>>> Of course, they won't do it, but it would be nice.
>>
>> I noticed you didn't quote the further paragraphs in my previous
>> post. Nor did you comment on that. Yet you made the above
>> remark. I find that sad.
>>
>
> I snipped after Mike B's header as that seemed to be a response to
> what he said. Why you find that sad, I don't know, as now that I've
> looked back on it, you snipped all of his post and responded to
> Testy's one line. As far as my not commenting on it, this "marketeer"
> thing seems to be one of your personal hotspots, which is fine. But I
> tend to respond to things that either I can help with or that I have
> a comment about because it interests and/or amuses me.
>
> I'm sure that you also pick and choose what you respond to.

Agreed.



>> The "Of course, they won't do it" is *intimately" tied into the whole
>> airhead marketing-mentality avoidance-of-responsibility mindset
>> that dumps marketeer-created problems into other people's laps.
>>
>> And your high-minded "noble" attitude to the problem is part of
>> the reason this silly nonsense continues.
>
> Oh, I doubt that I'm being noble at all. I help non-customers on the
> phone because I find that it's a good way to turn a percentage of
> them into customers. If I look at what it costs me to answers those
> questions vs. what it costs me for print advertising, then look at
> the number of customers each gets me, the "being nice to people"
> on the phone gets me more customers.

No problem. Sound business practice. See above for why so many
in the industry don't follow the practice -- and the inevitable consequence.


> As far as answering questions on the newsgroup, it's a great way to
> learn what sorts of problems other people are having on their
> computers, so that when I run across the same issue with a customer's
> computer, I have some ideas what to look for. It's certainly more
> interesting than memorizing the knowledge base.

And we're all here on the newsgroups because our collective knowledge
is *way* more powerful than the knowledgebase will *ever* be. And
everybody knows it. And that's why I participate in discussions like this
one -- because *this* is how we gather the consensus required to change
the world.




>> Marketeers need to be ground up, spit out and pounded into
>> the ground for turning this business into a circus that only a fool
>> could love.
>
> Well, you've already called me a fool, so there you have it.

You've missed my point. I said you were a fool if you wasted your
time dealing with the ungrateful and those who would pay you 5 cents
on the dollar for your work.

I stand behind that statement.


From what you've told me -- you have somehow avoided that trap.
Good for you.

By a combination of good luck, good management and good
location -- your client-base is remarkably free of the kind of
wasteful freeloaders that drive many well-intentioned businesses
into the ground. This is great -- and I wish you well.



Best I can do for now. <tm>


Bill

[Jim Macklin]

I bought a Microsoft Windows XP Pro (OEM) from New Egg. I
also bought a motherboard and CPU...I am my own tech
support. The OEM XP Pro was $128, the mobo and CPU was
about $200.
My XP CD says Microsoft on it and it is legal. Unless you
have a Dell, installing a Dell branded OEM CD on another
computer is not legal.

The information is available, but people don't want to read.


"D.Currie" > wrote in message
...
| The problem may also be that not everyone who sells OEM
software has an OEM
| agreement with MS. Somewhere I have a document that says
what I'm supposed
| to do for the end user, and that includes providing
support. Among other
| things.
|
| OTOH if a person buys OEM software independent of a
system, he is probably
| considered the system builder, and the seller is acting as
a distributor
| (albeit not one of MSs authorized distributors; another
problem). As an OEM
| with an agreement with MS, I get support from MS, but that
individual who
| buys one copy on the 'net doesn't get support as he's not
in the program.
|
| Another thing is that some people don't know where the
line is between
| technical support and training. And they aren't clear
where they should go
| for support, so they look in all the wrong places and get
frustrated. Many
| people think the system builder should be responsible for
everything that
| goes into the computer, and are quite surprised when Dell
or whoever won't
| troubleshoot their printers or games or obscure software.
|
| "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" > wrote
in message
| ...
| > But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the
software" or is
| > that support if any comes from the OEM and not
Microsoft.
| > The real fault may be that the customer is not informed
why the OEM is
| > cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
| > Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes
many consumers
| > when they think they see a bargain and a not so
informative
| > salesperson.
| > Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could
be modified
| > to show it, however the package is not always seen by
the consumer.
| >
| > --
| > Jupiter Jones [MVP]
| > An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
| >
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/newsgroups/setup.asp
| > Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
| >
| >
| > "D.Currie" > wrote in message
| > ...
| > > Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the
rule that OEMs
| > have to
| > > support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to
sell OEM. As a
| > small
| > > system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
questions
| > face-to-face,
| > > and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get
plenty of calls
| > from people
| > > who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get
an answer.
| > >
| > > Then there are the people who sell the oem software
with trinkets,
| > and have
| > > no intention or ability to answer questions.
| > >
| > > I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even
the not-yet
| > > customers -- I figure some day I will get their
business.
| > >
| > > But it does irritate me that others shirk the
responsibility to give
| > the
| > > technical support they're supposed to. They aren't
footing the cost
| > for
| > > proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which
is fine for
| > the
| > > customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
I'm providing
| > free tech
| > > support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
person in the
| > meantime.
| >
| >
|
|

[D.Currie]

"Bill Drake" > wrote in message
<snip>

> > I've owned the store for 6 years, and I've managed to work it out.
> > Some things can't easily be solved over the phone, and some people
> > should not stick their hands inside their computers. In six years,
> > I've had very few people who simply waste my time, and if I have
> > other things that need to be done, that's what I do. If it's a
> > problem that intrigues me, or a person the I enjoy helping, it's my
> > time to waste.
>
> Agreed. And if you've managed to stay in business for 6 years,
> then obviously you've managed to find a way to balance your time
> between altruistic behaviour and stuff that pays the bills.
>
>
>
> >> It's when you get busy and start saying things like "I can't help you
> >> now" -- that you will find there are unreasonable and loutish clients
> >> who are simply rude and demanding -- even when you are being a
> >> "nice guy".
> >
> > I've done that. No one's gotten rude or demanding.
>
> My own personal experience in the business -- along with the experience
> of many of the dealers with whom I associate -- has been the complete
> opposite. The vast majority of people in the Computer Industry I've
> talked to in any of the major metropolitan centres in North America tell
> me monotonously-similar stories.
>
> I am *really* pleased this hasn't happened to you. I am also *very*
> surprised this hasn't happened to you. All things considered -- I'd move
> wherever you are in a nanosecond and work there happily... <grin>

Well, maybe that's the key. I live in a small town. There is a field with
cows next to the Home Depot. People tend to be very friendly, and they
absolutely HATE the idea of driving to the next town for anything. They like
doing business with small, local shops.

I moved here from Chicago and thought I'd landed in Mayberry ;)
>
>
> >>> Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come in for
> >>> service after calling, since some people, even with instruction,
> >>> are skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And
> >>> I have quite a number of customers who ignore their warranty
> >>> and bring the computer to me for repair. Or I diagnose they
> >>> problem, they get parts under warranty, and I replace them.
> >>> So it's not all bad.
> >>
> >> Fine. They're paying you for this service.
> >>
> >
> > And many have come to me because they called first, and I offered
> > some simple suggestions. If it was something they couldn't do, or didn't
> > work, they bring the work to me. It doesn't always happen, but we
> > also get a lot of referrals from those sorts of people because we're
> > not rude when people call with questions.
>
> And that's simply good business practice. So, if that's good business
> practice, then why don't Dell, Gateway, HP, IBM, or MS follow those
> procedures? Because they cost more money than dumping the process
> on the backs of others.

Well, that tide may be turning. According to Microsoft, more PCs with
Windows are sold by small system builders than by the big guys. And we're
gaining. And if you wanted a computer with Linux or Windows 98, the ONLY
place toi get it the way you want it may be a small shop. Also, the way I
figure it, a lot of people will buy their first computer online from Dell,
or from Wal-Mart, but as soon as they need service, they re-evaulate, and
the next computer is from a small shop. I'm betting that a whole of of
people who bought HPs and didn't get any CDs will think long and hard before
they buy another HP.

>
> And this simply encourages an irresponsible attitude on the part of
> *everyone* in the business -- and that irresponsible attitude turns
> broken hardware and software into a way of life that makes computers
> so frustrating and unrewarding that *fewer and fewer* use PCs willingly
> anymore.
>
> And that's why we're in this slump.
>
>
> >>> As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get
> >>> all of the ones who don't provide support, but they could crack
> >>> down on the most blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be
> >>> easy for them to muscle companies like Dell and Gateway and
> >>> the like. When people call for support and day, "Dell won't help
> >>> me" they've got the evidence right there.
> >>>
> >>> Of course, they won't do it, but it would be nice.
> >>
> >> I noticed you didn't quote the further paragraphs in my previous
> >> post. Nor did you comment on that. Yet you made the above
> >> remark. I find that sad.
> >>
> >
> > I snipped after Mike B's header as that seemed to be a response to
> > what he said. Why you find that sad, I don't know, as now that I've
> > looked back on it, you snipped all of his post and responded to
> > Testy's one line. As far as my not commenting on it, this "marketeer"
> > thing seems to be one of your personal hotspots, which is fine. But I
> > tend to respond to things that either I can help with or that I have
> > a comment about because it interests and/or amuses me.
> >
> > I'm sure that you also pick and choose what you respond to.
>
> Agreed.
>
>
>
> >> The "Of course, they won't do it" is *intimately" tied into the whole
> >> airhead marketing-mentality avoidance-of-responsibility mindset
> >> that dumps marketeer-created problems into other people's laps.
> >>
> >> And your high-minded "noble" attitude to the problem is part of
> >> the reason this silly nonsense continues.
> >
> > Oh, I doubt that I'm being noble at all. I help non-customers on the
> > phone because I find that it's a good way to turn a percentage of
> > them into customers. If I look at what it costs me to answers those
> > questions vs. what it costs me for print advertising, then look at
> > the number of customers each gets me, the "being nice to people"
> > on the phone gets me more customers.
>
> No problem. Sound business practice. See above for why so many
> in the industry don't follow the practice -- and the inevitable
consequence.

Maybe living in Mayberry isn't all that bad....But the cows are odd....

>
>
> > As far as answering questions on the newsgroup, it's a great way to
> > learn what sorts of problems other people are having on their
> > computers, so that when I run across the same issue with a customer's
> > computer, I have some ideas what to look for. It's certainly more
> > interesting than memorizing the knowledge base.
>
> And we're all here on the newsgroups because our collective knowledge
> is *way* more powerful than the knowledgebase will *ever* be. And
> everybody knows it. And that's why I participate in discussions like this
> one -- because *this* is how we gather the consensus required to change
> the world.
>
>
>
>
> >> Marketeers need to be ground up, spit out and pounded into
> >> the ground for turning this business into a circus that only a fool
> >> could love.
> >
> > Well, you've already called me a fool, so there you have it.
>
> You've missed my point. I said you were a fool if you wasted your
> time dealing with the ungrateful and those who would pay you 5 cents
> on the dollar for your work.
>
> I stand behind that statement.
>
>
> From what you've told me -- you have somehow avoided that trap.
> Good for you.
>
> By a combination of good luck, good management and good
> location -- your client-base is remarkably free of the kind of
> wasteful freeloaders that drive many well-intentioned businesses
> into the ground. This is great -- and I wish you well.

Well, thanks. It's been an interesting time, and overall, it's been
pleasant. About one customer a year gives me greif, but I can live with
that. And those give me something to write about in my monthly column in the
local paper, so it's not a total loss.

[D.Currie]

And that's fine. The problem comes in when people buy what they think will
be full retail, and the product is OEM. Then they can't use it as an
upgrade, and they get no support from MS.

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> I bought a Microsoft Windows XP Pro (OEM) from New Egg. I
> also bought a motherboard and CPU...I am my own tech
> support. The OEM XP Pro was $128, the mobo and CPU was
> about $200.
> My XP CD says Microsoft on it and it is legal. Unless you
> have a Dell, installing a Dell branded OEM CD on another
> computer is not legal.
>
> The information is available, but people don't want to read.
>
>
> "D.Currie" > wrote in message
> ...
> | The problem may also be that not everyone who sells OEM
> software has an OEM
> | agreement with MS. Somewhere I have a document that says
> what I'm supposed
> | to do for the end user, and that includes providing
> support. Among other
> | things.
> |
> | OTOH if a person buys OEM software independent of a
> system, he is probably
> | considered the system builder, and the seller is acting as
> a distributor
> | (albeit not one of MSs authorized distributors; another
> problem). As an OEM
> | with an agreement with MS, I get support from MS, but that
> individual who
> | buys one copy on the 'net doesn't get support as he's not
> in the program.
> |
> | Another thing is that some people don't know where the
> line is between
> | technical support and training. And they aren't clear
> where they should go
> | for support, so they look in all the wrong places and get
> frustrated. Many
> | people think the system builder should be responsible for
> everything that
> | goes into the computer, and are quite surprised when Dell
> or whoever won't
> | troubleshoot their printers or games or obscure software.
> |
> | "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" > wrote
> in message
> | ...
> | > But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the
> software" or is
> | > that support if any comes from the OEM and not
> Microsoft.
> | > The real fault may be that the customer is not informed
> why the OEM is
> | > cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
> | > Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes
> many consumers
> | > when they think they see a bargain and a not so
> informative
> | > salesperson.
> | > Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could
> be modified
> | > to show it, however the package is not always seen by
> the consumer.
> | >
> | > --
> | > Jupiter Jones [MVP]
> | > An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
> | >
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/newsgroups/setup.asp
> | > Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
> | >
> | >
> | > "D.Currie" > wrote in message
> | > ...
> | > > Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the
> rule that OEMs
> | > have to
> | > > support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to
> sell OEM. As a
> | > small
> | > > system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
> questions
> | > face-to-face,
> | > > and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get
> plenty of calls
> | > from people
> | > > who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get
> an answer.
> | > >
> | > > Then there are the people who sell the oem software
> with trinkets,
> | > and have
> | > > no intention or ability to answer questions.
> | > >
> | > > I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even
> the not-yet
> | > > customers -- I figure some day I will get their
> business.
> | > >
> | > > But it does irritate me that others shirk the
> responsibility to give
> | > the
> | > > technical support they're supposed to. They aren't
> footing the cost
> | > for
> | > > proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which
> is fine for
> | > the
> | > > customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
> I'm providing
> | > free tech
> | > > support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
> person in the
> | > meantime.
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
>
>

[Ted]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message =
...

> Dell branded OEM CD on another
> computer is not legal.
>=20

Prove it is not legal, by showing this as an actual law that is written. =
Remember, MS is NOT the law!

[Ted]

"Mister Charlie" > wrote in message =
...

> This one sentence clearly defines what and who YOU are. PLONK.

Who, what, where, how, why, when???

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

Ted;
What does the EULA that was agreed to on that Dell CD say?
It is a different EULA.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/newsgroups/setup.asp
Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.


"Ted" > wrote in message
...
Prove it is not legal, by showing this as an actual law that is
written. Remember, MS is NOT the law!

[Gerry Cornell]

Jim

The information is there to be read but is it in Plain English or =
whatever language you use?

--=20
~~~~~~


Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please tell the newsgroup how any=20
suggested solution worked for you.
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message =
...
> I bought a Microsoft Windows XP Pro (OEM) from New Egg. I
> also bought a motherboard and CPU...I am my own tech
> support. The OEM XP Pro was $128, the mobo and CPU was
> about $200.
> My XP CD says Microsoft on it and it is legal. Unless you
> have a Dell, installing a Dell branded OEM CD on another
> computer is not legal.
>=20
> The information is available, but people don't want to read.
>=20
>=20
> "D.Currie" > wrote in message
> ...
> | The problem may also be that not everyone who sells OEM
> software has an OEM
> | agreement with MS. Somewhere I have a document that says
> what I'm supposed
> | to do for the end user, and that includes providing
> support. Among other
> | things.
> |
> | OTOH if a person buys OEM software independent of a
> system, he is probably
> | considered the system builder, and the seller is acting as
> a distributor
> | (albeit not one of MSs authorized distributors; another
> problem). As an OEM
> | with an agreement with MS, I get support from MS, but that
> individual who
> | buys one copy on the 'net doesn't get support as he's not
> in the program.
> |
> | Another thing is that some people don't know where the
> line is between
> | technical support and training. And they aren't clear
> where they should go
> | for support, so they look in all the wrong places and get
> frustrated. Many
> | people think the system builder should be responsible for
> everything that
> | goes into the computer, and are quite surprised when Dell
> or whoever won't
> | troubleshoot their printers or games or obscure software.
> |
> | "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" > wrote
> in message
> | ...
> | > But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the
> software" or is
> | > that support if any comes from the OEM and not
> Microsoft.
> | > The real fault may be that the customer is not informed
> why the OEM is
> | > cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
> | > Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes
> many consumers
> | > when they think they see a bargain and a not so
> informative
> | > salesperson.
> | > Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could
> be modified
> | > to show it, however the package is not always seen by
> the consumer.
> | >
> | > --=20
> | > Jupiter Jones [MVP]
> | > An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
> | >
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/newsgroups/setup.asp
> | > Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
> | >
> | >
> | > "D.Currie" > wrote in message
> | > ...
> | > > Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the
> rule that OEMs
> | > have to
> | > > support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to
> sell OEM. As a
> | > small
> | > > system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
> questions
> | > face-to-face,
> | > > and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get
> plenty of calls
> | > from people
> | > > who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get
> an answer.
> | > >
> | > > Then there are the people who sell the oem software
> with trinkets,
> | > and have
> | > > no intention or ability to answer questions.
> | > >
> | > > I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even
> the not-yet
> | > > customers -- I figure some day I will get their
> business.
> | > >
> | > > But it does irritate me that others shirk the
> responsibility to give
> | > the
> | > > technical support they're supposed to. They aren't
> footing the cost
> | > for
> | > > proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which
> is fine for
> | > the
> | > > customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
> I'm providing
> | > free tech
> | > > support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
> person in the
> | > meantime.
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
>=20
>

[nevermore]

I hesitate to reply, feel a little squeamish about the inevitable abuse I
feel I am inviting but here goes anyway. I am one of those people--the ones
who bought from a huge vendor without prior research. I had no idea (until I
started reading this newsgroup) what the heck an OEM was. I have no problem
at all with the concept that I got what I paid for; however, it would have
been nice to have been advised by my retailer either verbally or in writing,
that I was not getting a "complete" OS and that I would have to go somewhere
other than MS for support. That would have given me the option to say, no
problem, let me pay you for a full copy whatever or would have let me try to
negotiate for a full copy. Whatever. And yes, I know I can still go out and
buy one. But that is after the fact and after I learned all about it. In my
(stupid one of those people) opinion, to use a car analogy which everyone
hates, everyone knows that you have to get a car serviced and seen to from
time to time and that is just fine and no one expects you to be a mechanic
when you buy a car. But the smelly stuff would hit the fan if you found out
after you got the car home that you could only get it repaired by taking it
to certain garages and you couldn't even talk to, say, Ford. And it didn't
come with a spare tire. But hey, you paid a couple of hundred bucks less for
it and you should have asked when you bought it. From where I am sitting, I
can't ask what I don't know about and being one of those persons, I can't
actually tell that I am paying less for it. Yes, believe it or not, you can
compare whole systems from store to store quite easily but it is not obvious
(to those people) that the price difference is because of the type of
components vs. a lightweight OS. Or because they just have a great sale
going on. Again, I have no problem with the buyer beware concept etcetera.
But I think that there should be some requirement for full disclosure with
respect to the operating system. As in "Comes with Windows XP OEM". I hope
that if I had seen that I would have asked what is OEM? Maybe not-- I am one
of those people <g> but at that point I could not have any complaint at all.



"Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
...
Jim

The information is there to be read but is it in Plain English or whatever
language you use?

--
~~~~~~


Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please tell the newsgroup how any
suggested solution worked for you.
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> I bought a Microsoft Windows XP Pro (OEM) from New Egg. I
> also bought a motherboard and CPU...I am my own tech
> support. The OEM XP Pro was $128, the mobo and CPU was
> about $200.
> My XP CD says Microsoft on it and it is legal. Unless you
> have a Dell, installing a Dell branded OEM CD on another
> computer is not legal.
>
> The information is available, but people don't want to read.
>
>
> "D.Currie" > wrote in message
> ...
> | The problem may also be that not everyone who sells OEM
> software has an OEM
> | agreement with MS. Somewhere I have a document that says
> what I'm supposed
> | to do for the end user, and that includes providing
> support. Among other
> | things.
> |
> | OTOH if a person buys OEM software independent of a
> system, he is probably
> | considered the system builder, and the seller is acting as
> a distributor
> | (albeit not one of MSs authorized distributors; another
> problem). As an OEM
> | with an agreement with MS, I get support from MS, but that
> individual who
> | buys one copy on the 'net doesn't get support as he's not
> in the program.
> |
> | Another thing is that some people don't know where the
> line is between
> | technical support and training. And they aren't clear
> where they should go
> | for support, so they look in all the wrong places and get
> frustrated. Many
> | people think the system builder should be responsible for
> everything that
> | goes into the computer, and are quite surprised when Dell
> or whoever won't
> | troubleshoot their printers or games or obscure software.
> |
> | "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" > wrote
> in message
> | ...
> | > But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the
> software" or is
> | > that support if any comes from the OEM and not
> Microsoft.
> | > The real fault may be that the customer is not informed
> why the OEM is
> | > cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
> | > Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes
> many consumers
> | > when they think they see a bargain and a not so
> informative
> | > salesperson.
> | > Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could
> be modified
> | > to show it, however the package is not always seen by
> the consumer.
> | >
> | > --
> | > Jupiter Jones [MVP]
> | > An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
> | >
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/newsgroups/setup.asp
> | > Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
> | >
> | >
> | > "D.Currie" > wrote in message
> | > ...
> | > > Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the
> rule that OEMs
> | > have to
> | > > support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to
> sell OEM. As a
> | > small
> | > > system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
> questions
> | > face-to-face,
> | > > and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get
> plenty of calls
> | > from people
> | > > who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get
> an answer.
> | > >
> | > > Then there are the people who sell the oem software
> with trinkets,
> | > and have
> | > > no intention or ability to answer questions.
> | > >
> | > > I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even
> the not-yet
> | > > customers -- I figure some day I will get their
> business.
> | > >
> | > > But it does irritate me that others shirk the
> responsibility to give
> | > the
> | > > technical support they're supposed to. They aren't
> footing the cost
> | > for
> | > > proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which
> is fine for
> | > the
> | > > customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
> I'm providing
> | > free tech
> | > > support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
> person in the
> | > meantime.
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
>
>

[David Candy]

Nothing wrong with what you say. It's fraud I think. But please use =
paragraphs.

--=20
http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm
http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Candy
http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros
---------------------------------------------------------------
"nevermore" > wrote in message =
le.rogers.com...
> I hesitate to reply, feel a little squeamish about the inevitable =
abuse I
> feel I am inviting but here goes anyway. I am one of those people--the =
ones
> who bought from a huge vendor without prior research. I had no idea =
(until I
> started reading this newsgroup) what the heck an OEM was. I have no =
problem
> at all with the concept that I got what I paid for; however, it would =
have
> been nice to have been advised by my retailer either verbally or in =
writing,
> that I was not getting a "complete" OS and that I would have to go =
somewhere
> other than MS for support. That would have given me the option to say, =
no
> problem, let me pay you for a full copy whatever or would have let me =
try to
> negotiate for a full copy. Whatever. And yes, I know I can still go =
out and
> buy one. But that is after the fact and after I learned all about it. =
In my
> (stupid one of those people) opinion, to use a car analogy which =
everyone
> hates, everyone knows that you have to get a car serviced and seen to =
from
> time to time and that is just fine and no one expects you to be a =
mechanic
> when you buy a car. But the smelly stuff would hit the fan if you =
found out
> after you got the car home that you could only get it repaired by =
taking it
> to certain garages and you couldn't even talk to, say, Ford. And it =
didn't
> come with a spare tire. But hey, you paid a couple of hundred bucks =
less for
> it and you should have asked when you bought it. From where I am =
sitting, I
> can't ask what I don't know about and being one of those persons, I =
can't
> actually tell that I am paying less for it. Yes, believe it or not, =
you can
> compare whole systems from store to store quite easily but it is not =
obvious
> (to those people) that the price difference is because of the type of
> components vs. a lightweight OS. Or because they just have a great =
sale
> going on. Again, I have no problem with the buyer beware concept =
etcetera.
> But I think that there should be some requirement for full disclosure =
with
> respect to the operating system. As in "Comes with Windows XP OEM". I =
hope
> that if I had seen that I would have asked what is OEM? Maybe not-- I =
am one
> of those people <g> but at that point I could not have any complaint =
at all.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> "Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
> ...
> Jim
>=20
> The information is there to be read but is it in Plain English or =
whatever
> language you use?
>=20
> --=20
> ~~~~~~
>=20
>=20
> Hope this helps.
>=20
> Gerry
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> FCA
>
> Stourport, Worcs, England
> Enquire, plan and execute.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Please tell the newsgroup how any
> suggested solution worked for you.
> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
>=20
> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in =
message
> ...
> > I bought a Microsoft Windows XP Pro (OEM) from New Egg. I
> > also bought a motherboard and CPU...I am my own tech
> > support. The OEM XP Pro was $128, the mobo and CPU was
> > about $200.
> > My XP CD says Microsoft on it and it is legal. Unless you
> > have a Dell, installing a Dell branded OEM CD on another
> > computer is not legal.
> >
> > The information is available, but people don't want to read.
> >
> >
> > "D.Currie" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > | The problem may also be that not everyone who sells OEM
> > software has an OEM
> > | agreement with MS. Somewhere I have a document that says
> > what I'm supposed
> > | to do for the end user, and that includes providing
> > support. Among other
> > | things.
> > |
> > | OTOH if a person buys OEM software independent of a
> > system, he is probably
> > | considered the system builder, and the seller is acting as
> > a distributor
> > | (albeit not one of MSs authorized distributors; another
> > problem). As an OEM
> > | with an agreement with MS, I get support from MS, but that
> > individual who
> > | buys one copy on the 'net doesn't get support as he's not
> > in the program.
> > |
> > | Another thing is that some people don't know where the
> > line is between
> > | technical support and training. And they aren't clear
> > where they should go
> > | for support, so they look in all the wrong places and get
> > frustrated. Many
> > | people think the system builder should be responsible for
> > everything that
> > | goes into the computer, and are quite surprised when Dell
> > or whoever won't
> > | troubleshoot their printers or games or obscure software.
> > |
> > | "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" > wrote
> > in message
> > | ...
> > | > But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the
> > software" or is
> > | > that support if any comes from the OEM and not
> > Microsoft.
> > | > The real fault may be that the customer is not informed
> > why the OEM is
> > | > cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
> > | > Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes
> > many consumers
> > | > when they think they see a bargain and a not so
> > informative
> > | > salesperson.
> > | > Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could
> > be modified
> > | > to show it, however the package is not always seen by
> > the consumer.
> > | >
> > | > --=20
> > | > Jupiter Jones [MVP]
> > | > An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
> > | >
> > http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/newsgroups/setup.asp
> > | > Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
> > | >
> > | >
> > | > "D.Currie" > wrote in message
> > | > ...
> > | > > Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the
> > rule that OEMs
> > | > have to
> > | > > support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to
> > sell OEM. As a
> > | > small
> > | > > system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
> > questions
> > | > face-to-face,
> > | > > and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get
> > plenty of calls
> > | > from people
> > | > > who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get
> > an answer.
> > | > >
> > | > > Then there are the people who sell the oem software
> > with trinkets,
> > | > and have
> > | > > no intention or ability to answer questions.
> > | > >
> > | > > I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even
> > the not-yet
> > | > > customers -- I figure some day I will get their
> > business.
> > | > >
> > | > > But it does irritate me that others shirk the
> > responsibility to give
> > | > the
> > | > > technical support they're supposed to. They aren't
> > footing the cost
> > | > for
> > | > > proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which
> > is fine for
> > | > the
> > | > > customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
> > I'm providing
> > | > free tech
> > | > > support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
> > person in the
> > | > meantime.
> > | >
> > | >
> > |
> > |
> >
> >
>=20
>=20

[Ted]

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" > wrote in message =
...
> Ted;
> What does the EULA that was agreed to on that Dell CD say?
> It is a different EULA.
>=20

<curse mode off for now>

That's not the point! MS's EULA (or any software contract) is not a =
binding legal document written under laws of a criminal code, other than =
if one breaks the agreement, it could be a civil matter in a court of =
law. But to use the term "legal" (or illegal) cannot apply in this case =
since there is no actual written law where one can be arrested for using =
the same copy of Windows on two or more PCs. While I agree to the EULA, =
and personally will not use it on another PC, until MS and software =
writers get national legislators to amend the software copyright laws, =
applying opinions as legal code is pretty silly, IMHO! Until that =
happens, it is certain that agreeing to a contract (or EULA, etc), is =
solely on the conscious of the user, and how their morals are to making =
such agreements and how they in turn use the said software (if used on =
multiple hardware installations).

<curse mode on>

[Gerry Cornell]

Jupiter

I take it that the major computer retailers like Dell have their own =
customised OEM version. However, is there a Microsoft non-customised OEM =
version issued to small computer assemblers through authorised =
distributors, which are no different to the retail version, except that =
it is an OEM version? How much customisation is permitted?

--=20

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" > wrote in message =
...
> Ted;
> What does the EULA that was agreed to on that Dell CD say?
> It is a different EULA.
>=20
> --=20
> Jupiter Jones [MVP]
> An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/newsgroups/setup.asp
> Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
>=20
>=20
> "Ted" > wrote in message
> ...
> Prove it is not legal, by showing this as an actual law that is
> written. Remember, MS is NOT the law!
>=20
>

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

You would have to ask the dealer or look on Microsoft's OEM site.
Different OEMs are under different contracts with Microsoft.
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/
That is why you have to read the specific EULA on the product you are
using.
My EULA or even the EULA on another of your own computers is not
relevant to a different computer.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/newsgroups/setup.asp
Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.


"Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
...
Jupiter

I take it that the major computer retailers like Dell have their own
customised OEM version. However, is there a Microsoft non-customised
OEM version issued to small computer assemblers through authorised
distributors, which are no different to the retail version, except
that it is an OEM version? How much customisation is permitted?

--

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" > wrote in message
...
> Ted;
> What does the EULA that was agreed to on that Dell CD say?
> It is a different EULA.
>
> --
> Jupiter Jones [MVP]
> An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/newsgroups/setup.asp
> Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
>
>
> "Ted" > wrote in message
> ...
> Prove it is not legal, by showing this as an actual law that is
> written. Remember, MS is NOT the law!
>
>

[Jim Macklin]

Yes, MS also offers a set of software tools so the
VAR/homebuilder can customize the UI with custom splash
screens and logos.
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/main.asp


"Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
...
Jupiter

I take it that the major computer retailers like Dell have
their own customised OEM version. However, is there a
Microsoft non-customised OEM version issued to small
computer assemblers through authorised distributors, which
are no different to the retail version, except that it is
an OEM version? How much customisation is permitted?

--

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" > wrote in
message ...
> Ted;
> What does the EULA that was agreed to on that Dell CD say?
> It is a different EULA.
>
> --
> Jupiter Jones [MVP]
> An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
>
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/newsgroups/setup.asp
> Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
>
>
> "Ted" > wrote in message
> ...
> Prove it is not legal, by showing this as an actual law
that is
> written. Remember, MS is NOT the law!
>
>

[Spinner]

I am a registerd Microsoft system builder, and as such I purchased OEM
versions of Windows to install on the computers I built.
It was made very plain to me when I signed up that I, and not Microsoft, was
responsible for supplying support for the software I sold. The only
difference between the retail versions and the OEM versions I purchased was
the CD and documentation said OEM, and it would only install on a clean
drive. After it was installed it was exectly the same as any retail version.
Same features, versions, etc. So yes, Dell, Gateway, etc have thier own
customized versions, but there is also a "generic" OEM version.




"Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
...
Jupiter

I take it that the major computer retailers like Dell have their own
customised OEM version. However, is there a Microsoft non-customised OEM
version issued to small computer assemblers through authorised distributors,
which are no different to the retail version, except that it is an OEM
version? How much customisation is permitted?

--

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" > wrote in message
...
> Ted;
> What does the EULA that was agreed to on that Dell CD say?
> It is a different EULA.
>
> --
> Jupiter Jones [MVP]
> An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/newsgroups/setup.asp
> Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
>
>
> "Ted" > wrote in message
> ...
> Prove it is not legal, by showing this as an actual law that is
> written. Remember, MS is NOT the law!
>
>

[D.Currie]

Using your car analogy, if you have a problem with your car under warranty,
no matter what component fails, you go to the car dealer, right? Not to the
company that made the radio or the company that made the air conditioner, or
the company that made the oil filter.

Same with your computer. You have a problem with the computer, you go to
Dell, Hp, Gateway, whoever made the computer. You don't go to the various
companies that made the individual components.

You can take your car or your computer anywhere you want to for repair, but
if you want it done under warranty, you can only take it to certain places.
And technical support? You go to the oem. I doubt you'd get anywhere by
calling the company that produced your ignition switch and asking for
technical support on how to rebuild it.

As far as the computer company not telling you that your software is OEM,
they also didn't tell you that your hard drive, sound card, motherboard,
power supply, etc. are OEM parts. Everything in the machine is OEM. You need
anything replaced, the warranty is by the oem, not the individual
manufacturer of the parts. So let's say your monitor goes out, and you find
out that it's made by Viewsonic and the same model has a 3-year warranty
from Viewsonic. But yours has a different label on it, so yours has the
standard one year warranty from the oem. Not three years (or five, on some
models) if it was purchased retail.

Got a SoundBlaster sound card in your OEM machine? There's a chance that the
card, hardware-wise, was customized, and there's an even bigger chance that
the software/drivers/utilities that you got is different than what comes
with a similar retail card. And there's also a chance that if you upgrade
your OS when a new one comes out, you'll need to get drivers from the oem,
as the drivers from the sound card maker might not work. And will your oem
support your upgrade with new drivers? It's up to them. Some do, some don't.
On the other hand, there's a much better chance that the similar retail
product will have upgraded drivers available. You might get lucky and find
that the retail drivers work on your oem card, but it's not a sure thing.

Here's something else you might want to know. There are a lot of oem parts
(besides software) being sold on the internet at pretty good prices. For
some reason, a lot of those are marked "Compaq spares." Especially hard
drives. You know what the warranty on those is? Zero, zilch, nada.
Maxtor/Seagate/WD/whoever won't replace it if it goes bad; they'll refer you
to Compaq. Compaq won't replace it for you, as you didn't buy it from them,
nor did it come with one of their systems. So if it dies in 2 months, you
have no recourse.

And back to your car analogy, with regards to the spare tire. There was a
time when a spare tire was identical to the four on the car. When
manufacturers starting using those limited-use tiny spares, they didn't make
a big hoopla about it. You had to look in the trunk or ask about it, or they
didn't say anything except that a spare was included. Sometimes, on some
models, you could get a full-size spare as an option, if you asked for one.
Used to be you could get a whole technical repair manual for the car. Those
disappeared as well and instead you get a booklet that explains where the
turn signals are, and how to buckle the seat belt. Much like manuals that
used to come with software. At least with computers, the on-line help has
gotten better. :-)


"nevermore" > wrote in message
le.rogers.com...
> I hesitate to reply, feel a little squeamish about the inevitable abuse I
> feel I am inviting but here goes anyway. I am one of those people--the
ones
> who bought from a huge vendor without prior research. I had no idea (until
I
> started reading this newsgroup) what the heck an OEM was. I have no
problem
> at all with the concept that I got what I paid for; however, it would have
> been nice to have been advised by my retailer either verbally or in
writing,
> that I was not getting a "complete" OS and that I would have to go
somewhere
> other than MS for support. That would have given me the option to say, no
> problem, let me pay you for a full copy whatever or would have let me try
to
> negotiate for a full copy. Whatever. And yes, I know I can still go out
and
> buy one. But that is after the fact and after I learned all about it. In
my
> (stupid one of those people) opinion, to use a car analogy which everyone
> hates, everyone knows that you have to get a car serviced and seen to from
> time to time and that is just fine and no one expects you to be a mechanic
> when you buy a car. But the smelly stuff would hit the fan if you found
out
> after you got the car home that you could only get it repaired by taking
it
> to certain garages and you couldn't even talk to, say, Ford. And it didn't
> come with a spare tire. But hey, you paid a couple of hundred bucks less
for
> it and you should have asked when you bought it. From where I am sitting,
I
> can't ask what I don't know about and being one of those persons, I can't
> actually tell that I am paying less for it. Yes, believe it or not, you
can
> compare whole systems from store to store quite easily but it is not
obvious
> (to those people) that the price difference is because of the type of
> components vs. a lightweight OS. Or because they just have a great sale
> going on. Again, I have no problem with the buyer beware concept etcetera.
> But I think that there should be some requirement for full disclosure with
> respect to the operating system. As in "Comes with Windows XP OEM". I hope
> that if I had seen that I would have asked what is OEM? Maybe not-- I am
one
> of those people <g> but at that point I could not have any complaint at
all.
>
>
>
> "Gerry Cornell" > wrote in message
> ...
> Jim
>
> The information is there to be read but is it in Plain English or whatever
> language you use?
>
> --
> ~~~~~~
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Gerry
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> FCA
>
> Stourport, Worcs, England
> Enquire, plan and execute.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Please tell the newsgroup how any
> suggested solution worked for you.
> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I bought a Microsoft Windows XP Pro (OEM) from New Egg. I
> > also bought a motherboard and CPU...I am my own tech
> > support. The OEM XP Pro was $128, the mobo and CPU was
> > about $200.
> > My XP CD says Microsoft on it and it is legal. Unless you
> > have a Dell, installing a Dell branded OEM CD on another
> > computer is not legal.
> >
> > The information is available, but people don't want to read.
> >
> >
> > "D.Currie" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > | The problem may also be that not everyone who sells OEM
> > software has an OEM
> > | agreement with MS. Somewhere I have a document that says
> > what I'm supposed
> > | to do for the end user, and that includes providing
> > support. Among other
> > | things.
> > |
> > | OTOH if a person buys OEM software independent of a
> > system, he is probably
> > | considered the system builder, and the seller is acting as
> > a distributor
> > | (albeit not one of MSs authorized distributors; another
> > problem). As an OEM
> > | with an agreement with MS, I get support from MS, but that
> > individual who
> > | buys one copy on the 'net doesn't get support as he's not
> > in the program.
> > |
> > | Another thing is that some people don't know where the
> > line is between
> > | technical support and training. And they aren't clear
> > where they should go
> > | for support, so they look in all the wrong places and get
> > frustrated. Many
> > | people think the system builder should be responsible for
> > everything that
> > | goes into the computer, and are quite surprised when Dell
> > or whoever won't
> > | troubleshoot their printers or games or obscure software.
> > |
> > | "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" > wrote
> > in message
> > | ...
> > | > But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the
> > software" or is
> > | > that support if any comes from the OEM and not
> > Microsoft.
> > | > The real fault may be that the customer is not informed
> > why the OEM is
> > | > cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
> > | > Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes
> > many consumers
> > | > when they think they see a bargain and a not so
> > informative
> > | > salesperson.
> > | > Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could
> > be modified
> > | > to show it, however the package is not always seen by
> > the consumer.
> > | >
> > | > --
> > | > Jupiter Jones [MVP]
> > | > An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
> > | >
> > http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/newsgroups/setup.asp
> > | > Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
> > | >
> > | >
> > | > "D.Currie" > wrote in message
> > | > ...
> > | > > Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the
> > rule that OEMs
> > | > have to
> > | > > support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to
> > sell OEM. As a
> > | > small
> > | > > system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
> > questions
> > | > face-to-face,
> > | > > and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get
> > plenty of calls
> > | > from people
> > | > > who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get
> > an answer.
> > | > >
> > | > > Then there are the people who sell the oem software
> > with trinkets,
> > | > and have
> > | > > no intention or ability to answer questions.
> > | > >
> > | > > I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even
> > the not-yet
> > | > > customers -- I figure some day I will get their
> > business.
> > | > >
> > | > > But it does irritate me that others shirk the
> > responsibility to give
> > | > the
> > | > > technical support they're supposed to. They aren't
> > footing the cost
> > | > for
> > | > > proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which
> > is fine for
> > | > the
> > | > > customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
> > I'm providing
> > | > free tech
> > | > > support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
> > person in the
> > | > meantime.
> > | >
> > | >
> > |
> > |
> >
> >
>
>

[Graham]

"Ted" <"""""""""""""""> wrote in message
s.com...

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" > wrote in message
...
> Ted;
> What does the EULA that was agreed to on that Dell CD say?
> It is a different EULA.
>

<curse mode off for now>

That's not the point! MS's EULA (or any software contract) is not a binding
legal document written under laws of a criminal code, other than if one
breaks the agreement, it could be a civil matter in a court of law. But to
use the term "legal" (or illegal) cannot apply in this case since there is
no actual written law where one can be arrested for using the same copy of
Windows on two or more PCs. While I agree to the EULA, and personally will
not use it on another PC, until MS and software writers get national
legislators to amend the software copyright laws, applying opinions as legal
code is pretty silly, IMHO! Until that happens, it is certain that agreeing
to a contract (or EULA, etc), is solely on the conscious of the user, and
how their morals are to making such agreements and how they in turn use the
said software (if used on multiple hardware installations).

<curse mode on>


If Microsoft were to, for whatever cause, take you to court, I am sure they
could prove in civil law that you did in fact break your agreement with
them.

[Sandi - Microsoft MVP]

"Ted" > wrote in message
...

>Who, what, where, how, why, when???

Actually, its "who, what, why, where, when and how" (apologies to the Mickey
Mouse Club)

<sorry, couldn't resist> ;o)

--
Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
________________________________________
Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer

[Ted]

"Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote in message =
...
> "Ted" > wrote in message=20
> ...
>=20
> >Who, what, where, how, why, when???
>=20
> Actually, its "who, what, why, where, when and how" (apologies to the =
Mickey=20
> Mouse Club)
>=20
> <sorry, couldn't resist> ;o)

Of course you couldn't resist, as this is a reflex of an MS employee's =
amoebic reaction instinct. IOWs, don't apologise for being a gormless =
****, it is unbecoming, if even from the aforementioned descriptor!

[Sandi - Microsoft MVP]

Boy - I sure am glad I'm *not* an MS employee or I could have had my
feelings hurt (don't you just love it when a basic misunderstanding totally
destroys what could have been a perfectly good flame?) <g>

--
Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
________________________________________
Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer


"Ted" <"""""""""""""""> wrote in message
s.com...

> Actually, its "who, what, why, where, when and how" (apologies to the
> Mickey
> Mouse Club)
>
> <sorry, couldn't resist> ;o)

Of course you couldn't resist, as this is a reflex of an MS employee's
amoebic reaction instinct. IOWs, don't apologise for being a gormless ****,
it is unbecoming, if even from the aforementioned descriptor!

[Jim Macklin]

Do you think Ted is 12 years old and just learned the c word
or 60 and is suffering from lack of the c?


"Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote in
message ...
| Boy - I sure am glad I'm *not* an MS employee or I could
have had my
| feelings hurt (don't you just love it when a basic
misunderstanding totally
| destroys what could have been a perfectly good flame?) <g>
|
| --
| Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
| ________________________________________
| Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
| http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
|
|
| "Ted" <"""""""""""""""> wrote in message
| s.com...
|
| > Actually, its "who, what, why, where, when and how"
(apologies to the
| > Mickey
| > Mouse Club)
| >
| > <sorry, couldn't resist> ;o)
|
| Of course you couldn't resist, as this is a reflex of an
MS employee's
| amoebic reaction instinct. IOWs, don't apologise for being
a gormless ****,
| it is unbecoming, if even from the aforementioned
descriptor!
|

[Sandi - Microsoft MVP]

He/she is probably just suffering from lack-of-vocabulary-itis and/or the
delusion that swearing equates intelligence; diseases that are far too
common nowadays ;o)

--
Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
________________________________________
Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> Do you think Ted is 12 years old and just learned the c word
> or 60 and is suffering from lack of the c?
>
>
> "Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote in
> message ...
> | Boy - I sure am glad I'm *not* an MS employee or I could
> have had my
> | feelings hurt (don't you just love it when a basic
> misunderstanding totally
> | destroys what could have been a perfectly good flame?) <g>
> |
> | --
> | Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
> | ________________________________________
> | Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
> | http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
> |
> |
> | "Ted" <"""""""""""""""> wrote in message
> | s.com...
> |
> | > Actually, its "who, what, why, where, when and how"
> (apologies to the
> | > Mickey
> | > Mouse Club)
> | >
> | > <sorry, couldn't resist> ;o)
> |
> | Of course you couldn't resist, as this is a reflex of an
> MS employee's
> | amoebic reaction instinct. IOWs, don't apologise for being
> a gormless ****,
> | it is unbecoming, if even from the aforementioned
> descriptor!
> |
>
>

[Jim Macklin]

They do get boring. Andrew Dice Clay is very funny for a
few minutes each year, but once is enough.


"Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote in
message ...
| He/she is probably just suffering from
lack-of-vocabulary-itis and/or the
| delusion that swearing equates intelligence; diseases that
are far too
| common nowadays ;o)
|
| --
| Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
| ________________________________________
| Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
| http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
|
| "Jim Macklin" >
wrote in message
| ...
| > Do you think Ted is 12 years old and just learned the c
word
| > or 60 and is suffering from lack of the c?
| >
| >
| > "Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote
in
| > message ...
| > | Boy - I sure am glad I'm *not* an MS employee or I
could
| > have had my
| > | feelings hurt (don't you just love it when a basic
| > misunderstanding totally
| > | destroys what could have been a perfectly good flame?)
<g>
| > |
| > | --
| > | Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
| > | ________________________________________
| > | Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
| > | http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
| > |
| > |
| > | "Ted" <"""""""""""""""> wrote in message
| > |
s.com...
| > |
| > | > Actually, its "who, what, why, where, when and how"
| > (apologies to the
| > | > Mickey
| > | > Mouse Club)
| > | >
| > | > <sorry, couldn't resist> ;o)
| > |
| > | Of course you couldn't resist, as this is a reflex of
an
| > MS employee's
| > | amoebic reaction instinct. IOWs, don't apologise for
being
| > a gormless ****,
| > | it is unbecoming, if even from the aforementioned
| > descriptor!
| > |
| >
| >

[Sandi - Microsoft MVP]

Have you seen this? It is quite appropriate.
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame50.html

Personally, I've been likened many times to the example below, which is kind
of cool, because I do have red hair and, apparently, the temper to match <g>
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame18.html

--
Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
________________________________________
Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> They do get boring. Andrew Dice Clay is very funny for a
> few minutes each year, but once is enough.
>
>
> "Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote in
> message ...
> | He/she is probably just suffering from
> lack-of-vocabulary-itis and/or the
> | delusion that swearing equates intelligence; diseases that
> are far too
> | common nowadays ;o)
> |
> | --
> | Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
> | ________________________________________
> | Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
> | http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
> |
> | "Jim Macklin" >
> wrote in message
> | ...
> | > Do you think Ted is 12 years old and just learned the c
> word
> | > or 60 and is suffering from lack of the c?
> | >
> | >
> | > "Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote
> in
> | > message ...
> | > | Boy - I sure am glad I'm *not* an MS employee or I
> could
> | > have had my
> | > | feelings hurt (don't you just love it when a basic
> | > misunderstanding totally
> | > | destroys what could have been a perfectly good flame?)
> <g>
> | > |
> | > | --
> | > | Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
> | > | ________________________________________
> | > | Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
> | > | http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
> | > |
> | > |
> | > | "Ted" <"""""""""""""""> wrote in message
> | > |
> s.com...
> | > |
> | > | > Actually, its "who, what, why, where, when and how"
> | > (apologies to the
> | > | > Mickey
> | > | > Mouse Club)
> | > | >
> | > | > <sorry, couldn't resist> ;o)
> | > |
> | > | Of course you couldn't resist, as this is a reflex of
> an
> | > MS employee's
> | > | amoebic reaction instinct. IOWs, don't apologise for
> being
> | > a gormless ****,
> | > | it is unbecoming, if even from the aforementioned
> | > descriptor!
> | > |
> | >
> | >
>
>

[Jim Macklin]

I had never seen the site before, thanks for the link.

A local issue in Kansas right now is gambling, should it be
allowed. The political issue is the chance for more
government money balanced against public morals and
organized crime interests.

A local TV station has a poll, asking what type of gambling
"you'd like to see?" So I called in my opinion, "strip
poker."

I don't mind rude, crude or even salacious, but calling
everybody with whom you disagree a vulgar name gets very old
very quickly.

I've given up on the kill file because these people keep
changing their names and spoofed addresses so they keep
getting through.


"Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote in
message ...
| Have you seen this? It is quite appropriate.
| http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame50.html
|
| Personally, I've been likened many times to the example
below, which is kind
| of cool, because I do have red hair and, apparently, the
temper to match <g>
| http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame18.html
|
| --
| Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
| ________________________________________
| Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
| http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
|
| "Jim Macklin" >
wrote in message
| ...
| > They do get boring. Andrew Dice Clay is very funny for
a
| > few minutes each year, but once is enough.
| >
| >
| > "Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote
in
| > message ...
| > | He/she is probably just suffering from
| > lack-of-vocabulary-itis and/or the
| > | delusion that swearing equates intelligence; diseases
that
| > are far too
| > | common nowadays ;o)
| > |
| > | --
| > | Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
| > | ________________________________________
| > | Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
| > | http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
| > |
| > | "Jim Macklin" >
| > wrote in message
| > | ...
| > | > Do you think Ted is 12 years old and just learned
the c
| > word
| > | > or 60 and is suffering from lack of the c?
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > "Sandi - Microsoft MVP" >
wrote
| > in
| > | > message
...
| > | > | Boy - I sure am glad I'm *not* an MS employee or I
| > could
| > | > have had my
| > | > | feelings hurt (don't you just love it when a basic
| > | > misunderstanding totally
| > | > | destroys what could have been a perfectly good
flame?)
| > <g>
| > | > |
| > | > | --
| > | > | Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain
current.
| > | > | ________________________________________
| > | > | Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
| > | > | http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | > | "Ted" <"""""""""""""""> wrote in message
| > | > |
| >
s.com...
| > | > |
| > | > | > Actually, its "who, what, why, where, when and
how"
| > | > (apologies to the
| > | > | > Mickey
| > | > | > Mouse Club)
| > | > | >
| > | > | > <sorry, couldn't resist> ;o)
| > | > |
| > | > | Of course you couldn't resist, as this is a reflex
of
| > an
| > | > MS employee's
| > | > | amoebic reaction instinct. IOWs, don't apologise
for
| > being
| > | > a gormless ****,
| > | > | it is unbecoming, if even from the aforementioned
| > | > descriptor!
| > | > |
| > | >
| > | >
| >
| >

[David Candy]

We legalise gambling in the land of oz, mostly to control organised =
crime. I suggest your kansas pollies are lying.=20

Pro
Remove criminal interest
Govt get revenue rather than criminals

Con
Increased incidence of personal harm and the social consequences due to =
increase in gambling

There can be other points based on the type of gambling and regulations =
applying.

EG Casinos increase tourism, lotteries don't.

You'd think you guys would remember your prohibition. Where I live =
gamblng is reguated, brothels are regulated, and injecting is being =
regulated.=20

Illegall activiies can't be regulated. By regulatng the govt get to =
control and influence the activity and can shape the outcomes.

The real questions should be, What regulations?

From: "Jim Macklin" >
Subject: Re: An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should =
they exist
Date: Sunday, 13 July 2003 8:27 PM

I had never seen the site before, thanks for the link.

A local issue in Kansas right now is gambling, should it be
allowed. The political issue is the chance for more
government money balanced against public morals and
organized crime interests.

A local TV station has a poll, asking what type of gambling
"you'd like to see?" So I called in my opinion, "strip
poker."

I don't mind rude, crude or even salacious, but calling
everybody with whom you disagree a vulgar name gets very old
very quickly.

I've given up on the kill file because these people keep
changing their names and spoofed addresses so they keep
getting through.


--=20
http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm
http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Candy
http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message =
...
> I had never seen the site before, thanks for the link.
>=20
> A local issue in Kansas right now is gambling, should it be
> allowed. The political issue is the chance for more
> government money balanced against public morals and
> organized crime interests.
>=20
> A local TV station has a poll, asking what type of gambling
> "you'd like to see?" So I called in my opinion, "strip
> poker."
>=20
> I don't mind rude, crude or even salacious, but calling
> everybody with whom you disagree a vulgar name gets very old
> very quickly.
>=20
> I've given up on the kill file because these people keep
> changing their names and spoofed addresses so they keep
> getting through.
>=20
>=20
> "Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote in
> message ...
> | Have you seen this? It is quite appropriate.
> | http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame50.html
> |
> | Personally, I've been likened many times to the example
> below, which is kind
> | of cool, because I do have red hair and, apparently, the
> temper to match <g>
> | http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame18.html
> |
> | --=20
> | Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
> | ________________________________________
> | Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
> | http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
> |
> | "Jim Macklin" >
> wrote in message
> | ...
> | > They do get boring. Andrew Dice Clay is very funny for
> a
> | > few minutes each year, but once is enough.
> | >
> | >
> | > "Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote
> in
> | > message ...
> | > | He/she is probably just suffering from
> | > lack-of-vocabulary-itis and/or the
> | > | delusion that swearing equates intelligence; diseases
> that
> | > are far too
> | > | common nowadays ;o)
> | > |
> | > | --=20
> | > | Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
> | > | ________________________________________
> | > | Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
> | > | http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
> | > |
> | > | "Jim Macklin" >
> | > wrote in message
> | > | ...
> | > | > Do you think Ted is 12 years old and just learned
> the c
> | > word
> | > | > or 60 and is suffering from lack of the c?
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > | > "Sandi - Microsoft MVP" >
> wrote
> | > in
> | > | > message
> ...
> | > | > | Boy - I sure am glad I'm *not* an MS employee or I
> | > could
> | > | > have had my
> | > | > | feelings hurt (don't you just love it when a basic
> | > | > misunderstanding totally
> | > | > | destroys what could have been a perfectly good
> flame?)
> | > <g>
> | > | > |
> | > | > | --=20
> | > | > | Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain
> current.
> | > | > | ________________________________________
> | > | > | Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
> | > | > | http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
> | > | > |
> | > | > |
> | > | > | "Ted" <"""""""""""""""> wrote in message
> | > | > |
> | >
> s.com...
> | > | > |
> | > | > | > Actually, its "who, what, why, where, when and
> how"
> | > | > (apologies to the
> | > | > | > Mickey
> | > | > | > Mouse Club)
> | > | > | >
> | > | > | > <sorry, couldn't resist> ;o)
> | > | > |
> | > | > | Of course you couldn't resist, as this is a reflex
> of
> | > an
> | > | > MS employee's
> | > | > | amoebic reaction instinct. IOWs, don't apologise
> for
> | > being
> | > | > a gormless ****,
> | > | > | it is unbecoming, if even from the aforementioned
> | > | > descriptor!
> | > | > |
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | >
> | >
>=20
>=20

[Ted]

"Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote in message =
...
> Boy - I sure am glad I'm *not* an MS employee or I could have had my=20
> feelings hurt (don't you just love it when a basic misunderstanding =
totally=20
> destroys what could have been a perfectly good flame?) <g>

Oh boy!=20

So now we play "role association lamer", in a poor attempt to hide the =
fact of my previous post about you!

[Sandi - Microsoft MVP]

Well at least you've cleaned up your language a bit. That's a step in the
right direction <ROTFLMAO>

Now.... if only you will direct your mind to some relevant studies and
improve the standard of your flames you'd really be getting somewhere :o)

--
Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
________________________________________
Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer


"Ted" <"""""""""""""""> wrote in message
s.com...

"Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote in message
...
> Boy - I sure am glad I'm *not* an MS employee or I could have had my
> feelings hurt (don't you just love it when a basic misunderstanding
> totally
> destroys what could have been a perfectly good flame?) <g>

Oh boy!

So now we play "role association lamer", in a poor attempt to hide the fact
of my previous post about you!

[Ted]

"Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote in message =
...
> Well at least you've cleaned up your language a bit. That's a step in =
the=20
> right direction <ROTFLMAO>
>=20
> Now.... if only you will direct your mind to some relevant studies and =

> improve the standard of your flames you'd really be getting somewhere =
:o)
>=20

I guess you fall under the "Resistence is futile" theme, as you come =
back to "a" seemingly loving thing for you! Or, is it mental =
masturbation gained here for you, due to the lack of battery power in =
your vibrator?

*waits for laming*

[Jim Macklin]

I got tossed of a jury when I suggested similar ideas about
20 years ago.

Haven't been called back since.


"David Candy" > wrote in message
...
We legalise gambling in the land of oz, mostly to control
organised crime. I suggest your kansas pollies are lying.

Pro
Remove criminal interest
Govt get revenue rather than criminals

Con
Increased incidence of personal harm and the social
consequences due to increase in gambling

There can be other points based on the type of gambling and
regulations applying.

EG Casinos increase tourism, lotteries don't.

You'd think you guys would remember your prohibition. Where
I live gamblng is reguated, brothels are regulated, and
injecting is being regulated.

Illegall activiies can't be regulated. By regulatng the govt
get to control and influence the activity and can shape the
outcomes.

The real questions should be, What regulations?

From: "Jim Macklin" >
Subject: Re: An open letter to Microsoft's support
personnel, should they exist
Date: Sunday, 13 July 2003 8:27 PM

I had never seen the site before, thanks for the link.

A local issue in Kansas right now is gambling, should it be
allowed. The political issue is the chance for more
government money balanced against public morals and
organized crime interests.

A local TV station has a poll, asking what type of gambling
"you'd like to see?" So I called in my opinion, "strip
poker."

I don't mind rude, crude or even salacious, but calling
everybody with whom you disagree a vulgar name gets very old
very quickly.

I've given up on the kill file because these people keep
changing their names and spoofed addresses so they keep
getting through.


--
http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm
http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm
------------------------------------------------------------
---
David Candy
http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros
------------------------------------------------------------
---
"Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message ...
> I had never seen the site before, thanks for the link.
>
> A local issue in Kansas right now is gambling, should it
be
> allowed. The political issue is the chance for more
> government money balanced against public morals and
> organized crime interests.
>
> A local TV station has a poll, asking what type of
gambling
> "you'd like to see?" So I called in my opinion, "strip
> poker."
>
> I don't mind rude, crude or even salacious, but calling
> everybody with whom you disagree a vulgar name gets very
old
> very quickly.
>
> I've given up on the kill file because these people keep
> changing their names and spoofed addresses so they keep
> getting through.
>
>
> "Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote
in
> message ...
> | Have you seen this? It is quite appropriate.
> | http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame50.html
> |
> | Personally, I've been likened many times to the example
> below, which is kind
> | of cool, because I do have red hair and, apparently, the
> temper to match <g>
> | http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame18.html
> |
> | --
> | Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
> | ________________________________________
> | Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
> | http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
> |
> | "Jim Macklin" >
> wrote in message
> | ...
> | > They do get boring. Andrew Dice Clay is very funny
for
> a
> | > few minutes each year, but once is enough.
> | >
> | >
> | > "Sandi - Microsoft MVP" >
wrote
> in
> | > message
...
> | > | He/she is probably just suffering from
> | > lack-of-vocabulary-itis and/or the
> | > | delusion that swearing equates intelligence;
diseases
> that
> | > are far too
> | > | common nowadays ;o)
> | > |
> | > | --
> | > | Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain
current.
> | > | ________________________________________
> | > | Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
> | > | http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
> | > |
> | > | "Jim Macklin"
>
> | > wrote in message
> | > | ...
> | > | > Do you think Ted is 12 years old and just learned
> the c
> | > word
> | > | > or 60 and is suffering from lack of the c?
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > | > "Sandi - Microsoft MVP" >
> wrote
> | > in
> | > | > message
> ...
> | > | > | Boy - I sure am glad I'm *not* an MS employee or
I
> | > could
> | > | > have had my
> | > | > | feelings hurt (don't you just love it when a
basic
> | > | > misunderstanding totally
> | > | > | destroys what could have been a perfectly good
> flame?)
> | > <g>
> | > | > |
> | > | > | --
> | > | > | Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain
> current.
> | > | > | ________________________________________
> | > | > | Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
> | > | > | http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
> | > | > |
> | > | > |
> | > | > | "Ted" <"""""""""""""""> wrote in message
> | > | > |
> | >
> s.com...
> | > | > |
> | > | > | > Actually, its "who, what, why, where, when and
> how"
> | > | > (apologies to the
> | > | > | > Mickey
> | > | > | > Mouse Club)
> | > | > | >
> | > | > | > <sorry, couldn't resist> ;o)
> | > | > |
> | > | > | Of course you couldn't resist, as this is a
reflex
> of
> | > an
> | > | > MS employee's
> | > | > | amoebic reaction instinct. IOWs, don't apologise
> for
> | > being
> | > | > a gormless ****,
> | > | > | it is unbecoming, if even from the
aforementioned
> | > | > descriptor!
> | > | > |
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | >
> | >
>
>

[Amethyst]

Sandi - Microsoft MVP wrote:
> Have you seen this? It is quite appropriate.
> http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame50.html
>
> Personally, I've been likened many times to the example below, which
> is kind of cool, because I do have red hair and, apparently, the
> temper to match <g> http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame18.html


Oh dear, I guess this is me then
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame12.html.

Blessed be,

Cass

--
Cassandra
Card carrying member of the Fresh Start Club 'The Undead Are People
Too!'

Reply address is fake. Please send all praise, abuse, insults, bequests
of £1million to cassandra (at) craigy34 (dot) freeserve (dot) co (dot)
uk. Change the obvious to the obvious.
Private requests for assistance will not be acknowledged. Please post
all correspondence to the group so that all may benefit. Thank you.

[Amethyst]

Sandi - Microsoft MVP wrote:
> Have you seen this? It is quite appropriate.
> http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame50.html
>
> Personally, I've been likened many times to the example below, which
> is kind of cool, because I do have red hair and, apparently, the
> temper to match <g> http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame18.html

And Netiquette Nazi too...I'm with ya, sista! ;o)

Cass
--
Cassandra
Card carrying member of the Fresh Start Club 'The Undead Are People
Too!'

Reply address is fake. Please send all praise, abuse, insults, bequests
of £1million to cassandra (at) craigy34 (dot) freeserve (dot) co (dot)
uk. Change the obvious to the obvious.
Private requests for assistance will not be acknowledged. Please post
all correspondence to the group so that all may benefit. Thank you.

[Paul]

Pretty true, except for the "slow to anger" part.
"Amethyst" > wrote in message
...
> Sandi - Microsoft MVP wrote:
> > Have you seen this? It is quite appropriate.
> > http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame50.html
> >
> > Personally, I've been likened many times to the example below, which
> > is kind of cool, because I do have red hair and, apparently, the
> > temper to match <g> http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame18.html
>
>
> Oh dear, I guess this is me then
> http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame12.html.
>
> Blessed be,
>
> Cass
>
> --
> Cassandra
> Card carrying member of the Fresh Start Club 'The Undead Are People
> Too!'
>
> Reply address is fake. Please send all praise, abuse, insults, bequests
> of £1million to cassandra (at) craigy34 (dot) freeserve (dot) co (dot)
> uk. Change the obvious to the obvious.
> Private requests for assistance will not be acknowledged. Please post
> all correspondence to the group so that all may benefit. Thank you.
>
>

[Sandi - Microsoft MVP]

"Amethyst" > wrote in message
...

> Oh dear, I guess this is me then
> http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame12.html.
>
> Blessed be,

Pretty close, but you can't pull the plug ;o)

--
Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
________________________________________
Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer

[PaulC]

And except for the slow to anger part. PMSL
"Sandi - Microsoft MVP" > wrote in message
...
> "Amethyst" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Oh dear, I guess this is me then
> > http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame12.html.
> >
> > Blessed be,
>
> Pretty close, but you can't pull the plug ;o)
>
> --
> Hyperlinks are used to ensure answers remain current.
> ________________________________________
> Sandi Hardmeier - Microsoft MVP since 1999
> http://www.mvps.org/inetexplorer
>