Hyper-Threading and Reduced Performance

[Chuck Philhower]

I recently updated my processor to one that supports Hyper-Threading. While
at times, I get better performance/speed and improved startup times as a
result, I also have times where processes hang for a while, and in a few rare
cases, crash and the system restarts.

SPECS:
Intel P4 3.0GHz HT (800 MHz bus speed enables)
Intel D865GBF MotherBoard
2GB PC 3200 DDRAM
Windows XP SP2

(My old processor was a P4 2.8GHz with NO Hyper-Threading)

My BIOS and (Mother) Board Revisions are fine, Hyper-Threading shows up in
the BIOS as enabled, and I do see '2' processors in the task manager and
device manager. My computer does start up fine and when I am doing routine
internet browsing or similar things, I have no problems. It is when I have
several processes open at once do I begin to have problems. I keep my
computer updated thru Microsoft Updates, I have no problems listed in my
Device Manager, and as far as I know, all of my drivers are up-to-date.

Question(s) 1: I understand there is a Hotfix from Microsoft for Dual-Core
and Hyper-Threading Processors regarding syncronization of the Time Stamp
Counter and other things related to ACPI and demand base switching etc, as
noted on the Intel Support Web Site and in Microsoft's Knowledge Base (it
states that this is a problem with the OS). How do I go about getting it?
MUST I call Microsoft Tech Support and be charged for this? Does it really
work?

Question 2: If I choose to disable Hyper-Threading in my BIOS, will I still
get the increased front side bus speed (800 instead of 533) and improved
memory speed (400 instead of 333) over my old processor?

Question 3: Can I disable any ACPI functions in the BIOS to solve this
problem and how?

Obviously, I would prefer the HOTFIX to take care of these issues, but had
those backup questions just in case.

I appreciate any help you can offer....

--
Chuck Philhower

[[email protected]]

Chuck Philhower > wrote:
> I recently updated my processor to one that supports Hyper-Threading. While
> at times, I get better performance/speed and improved startup times as a
> result, I also have times where processes hang for a while, and in a few rare
> cases, crash and the system restarts.

> SPECS:
> Intel P4 3.0GHz HT (800 MHz bus speed enables)
> Intel D865GBF MotherBoard
> 2GB PC 3200 DDRAM
> Windows XP SP2

> (My old processor was a P4 2.8GHz with NO Hyper-Threading)

> My BIOS and (Mother) Board Revisions are fine, Hyper-Threading shows up in
> the BIOS as enabled, and I do see '2' processors in the task manager and
> device manager. My computer does start up fine and when I am doing routine
> internet browsing or similar things, I have no problems. It is when I have
> several processes open at once do I begin to have problems. I keep my
> computer updated thru Microsoft Updates, I have no problems listed in my
> Device Manager, and as far as I know, all of my drivers are up-to-date.

> Question(s) 1: I understand there is a Hotfix from Microsoft for Dual-Core
> and Hyper-Threading Processors regarding syncronization of the Time Stamp
> Counter and other things related to ACPI and demand base switching etc, as
> noted on the Intel Support Web Site and in Microsoft's Knowledge Base (it
> states that this is a problem with the OS). How do I go about getting it?

the KB art. will give a number to call; if you have the stated "problem"
they'll give you a url to the fix and not charge you any $$. but see next
comment....

> MUST I call Microsoft Tech Support and be charged for this? Does it really
> work?

If you are up-to-date via windows update then you've got this already.
check the version numbers for the effected files as stated in the kb
artical.

> Question 2: If I choose to disable Hyper-Threading in my BIOS, will I still
> get the increased front side bus speed (800 instead of 533) and improved
> memory speed (400 instead of 333) over my old processor?

Yes, FSB speed won't be effected.

> Question 3: Can I disable any ACPI functions in the BIOS to solve this
> problem and how?

Not that I can think of.

When you changed processors you did a Repair Install, right? [You must
have I think, to get the multi-processor HAL].

Did you install the Intel Chipset Drivers? You should - tho the 865 is
fairly old I don't think the baseline XP setup included it at the time.

More info on the specific problem/crash may be helpful. Most often these
things are a driver issue - how's your video driver, fairly recent?

FWIW, I have a 865 mb w/ a HT P4 and it's been pretty flawless, never an
issue related to HT at all.

[Chuck Philhower]

I got the hotfix, they were very quick about sending it. I also have the
latest video drivers for my ATI 800XT Graphics card, the ones that came with
the Catalyst 6.4 version (the current Catalyst).

As far as the installation of the processor, I removed the old, replaced it
with the new one, fan etc... and started up. When windows loaded, it
recognized the new processor ('New hardware found" etc), loaded the drivers
(I assume...) and asked for a restart to fully utilize it (I don't remember
the exact wording). I restarted and all seemed to go smoothly in that regard.

I will try out the hotfix after looking it over. Strange there is a fix
even though it is supposed to be included in SP2, but it is what it is.

Thanks for all the other information also about FSB etc. It is greatly
appreciated.

I will post back whether the hotfix works or not.
--
Chuck Philhower

[Chuck Philhower]

Well, I tried the fix, and at first I had a bit of better luck, but then I
noticed things stuttering, and thinkgs like even my Intel Active Monitor
program crashed.

Nuts...

I will have to look into this further.

[JS]

Try installing 'BurninTest' from PassMark Software. Also monitor your CPU
temperature since you replaced the cpu and Heatsink/Fan.

Jim

"Chuck Philhower" > wrote in
message ...
>I recently updated my processor to one that supports Hyper-Threading.
>While
> at times, I get better performance/speed and improved startup times as a
> result, I also have times where processes hang for a while, and in a few
> rare
> cases, crash and the system restarts.
>
> SPECS:
> Intel P4 3.0GHz HT (800 MHz bus speed enables)
> Intel D865GBF MotherBoard
> 2GB PC 3200 DDRAM
> Windows XP SP2
>
> (My old processor was a P4 2.8GHz with NO Hyper-Threading)
>
> My BIOS and (Mother) Board Revisions are fine, Hyper-Threading shows up in
> the BIOS as enabled, and I do see '2' processors in the task manager and
> device manager. My computer does start up fine and when I am doing
> routine
> internet browsing or similar things, I have no problems. It is when I
> have
> several processes open at once do I begin to have problems. I keep my
> computer updated thru Microsoft Updates, I have no problems listed in my
> Device Manager, and as far as I know, all of my drivers are up-to-date.
>
> Question(s) 1: I understand there is a Hotfix from Microsoft for
> Dual-Core
> and Hyper-Threading Processors regarding syncronization of the Time Stamp
> Counter and other things related to ACPI and demand base switching etc, as
> noted on the Intel Support Web Site and in Microsoft's Knowledge Base (it
> states that this is a problem with the OS). How do I go about getting it?
> MUST I call Microsoft Tech Support and be charged for this? Does it
> really
> work?
>
> Question 2: If I choose to disable Hyper-Threading in my BIOS, will I
> still
> get the increased front side bus speed (800 instead of 533) and improved
> memory speed (400 instead of 333) over my old processor?
>
> Question 3: Can I disable any ACPI functions in the BIOS to solve this
> problem and how?
>
> Obviously, I would prefer the HOTFIX to take care of these issues, but had
> those backup questions just in case.
>
> I appreciate any help you can offer....
>
> --
> Chuck Philhower

[[email protected]]

go into device manager, choose View | Devices By Connection; what's the
top item? It should read "ACPI Multiprocessor PC". That's the HAL being
used. If it doesn't read that you need to do a Repair Install, that'll
switch the HAL.

[Chuck Philhower]

I will give Burning Test a try...and I have been monitoring my temps. They
are about 5 C* hotter than my old processor, which is what I expected. They
are still well within reason though. That is what I had read in the reviews
when I bought it from NewEgg. Although...there was a post about lowering the
voltage in the BIOS to bring down the temperature. I don't know how to do
that, I will investigate that later after I fix this...
--
Chuck Philhower

[Chuck Philhower]

It did say just that before, and it even says it now after I temporarily
turned off Hyper-Threading.

I will test it with Hyper-Threading off for a bit to see how things go as I
continue to think about what I can do. If I am able to come up with
something else to try...

Just a thought, I had installed my video drivers with the old processor in.
If I were to reinstall my drivers with the new cpu, would that make a
difference?

Well, it is something to try.

Thanks everyone for the help.

--
Chuck Philhower

[[email protected]]

Chuck Philhower > wrote:
> It did say just that before, and it even says it now after I temporarily
> turned off Hyper-Threading.

interesting, that's what I assumed from what you said; but I wonder why
your old setup would have used that HAL in the first place. oh well...

> Just a thought, I had installed my video drivers with the old processor in.
> If I were to reinstall my drivers with the new cpu, would that make a
> difference?

I don't think so.

However, catalyst drivers are a finicky bunch, the best site I can
reccommend for issues related to catalyst is:

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33738545


========

as for temps, your new processor is a prescott no doubt, that'll run
hotter for sure - don't worry about it, don't fudge the voltages, they
just run hotter. precotts should be in the 40C-70C range, however hitting
75C is too hot and you'll need to fix something if that happens.

did you try memtest86+, full run for 8-10 hours overnight? that'd be my
first step w/ a system that seems to falter only occasionally w/o a
repeatable error. rule out a ram issue first to keep your sanity. I've
seen DOZENS of systems that work 99% of the time that had unsuspected ram
issues. If memtest86+ reports even a single failure, correct it before
moving on. sometimes changing dimm slots solves the issues (if you're
lucky; I have seen it! needless to say that mb model goes on my not
recommended list when I find it).

---

as I said, 865 mb's are, for the most part, pretty solid. HOWEVER, some
do not do the PAT thing well (the 875 mem access "trick"), especially w/
high-end DIMMs that are already tightly tuned. memtest will show this up.
TURN OFF PAT (ie, turbo/racer/F1 mode in the bios) and try again.

[Chuck Philhower]

Well, I did run the BurnIn Test several times and came up with no errors. I
also reinstalled Windows Service Pack 2 and all my Audio and Video Drivers.
The BurnIn Test worked well after that also. However, I am still having some
problems.

I will have to try the Memtest. I had run it 9 months ago when I initially
bought my high end memory last summer and ran it overnight. Then I came up
with no problems. Of course, it was also running at 333 instead of 400,
maybe that makes a difference.

Right now I am running it with Hyper-Threading off. I will try to run
Memtest sometime today/tonight to rule that out.

I currently have a 400W power supply that I had no problems with
before....If the Memtest comes up negative, is there a chance that this could
be a problem?

Well, Thanks again everyone for the advice.
--
Chuck Philhower

[JS]

Chuck,

Here is a google search link for calculating power supply demands, at least
one of the listed sites should give you a ball park figure.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=power%2Bsupply%2Bcalculator&btnG=Google+Search

JS

"Chuck Philhower" > wrote in
message ...
> Well, I did run the BurnIn Test several times and came up with no errors.
> I
> also reinstalled Windows Service Pack 2 and all my Audio and Video
> Drivers.
> The BurnIn Test worked well after that also. However, I am still having
> some
> problems.
>
> I will have to try the Memtest. I had run it 9 months ago when I
> initially
> bought my high end memory last summer and ran it overnight. Then I came
> up
> with no problems. Of course, it was also running at 333 instead of 400,
> maybe that makes a difference.
>
> Right now I am running it with Hyper-Threading off. I will try to run
> Memtest sometime today/tonight to rule that out.
>
> I currently have a 400W power supply that I had no problems with
> before....If the Memtest comes up negative, is there a chance that this
> could
> be a problem?
>
> Well, Thanks again everyone for the advice.
> --
> Chuck Philhower
>

[Chuck Philhower]

Thanks for the power calculation links, I should be ok there.

Ran the memtest for 5 hours, no errors. Almost wish there were a problem
there just to narrow down what is causing it. Also ran the Intel
Hyper-Threading Utility to make sure my BIOS was ok and it was. I may try
reformatting my hard drive next, and reinstalling Windows from scratch, but I
will have to make lots of backups and make sure I can still get all the
patches for all my other programs when I reinstall them. Bummer, I had
thought everything was running great until I got this new processor.
--
Chuck Philhower


"JS" wrote:

> Chuck,
>
> Here is a google search link for calculating power supply demands, at least
> one of the listed sites should give you a ball park figure.
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=power%2Bsupply%2Bcalculator&btnG=Google+Search
>
> JS
>
> "Chuck Philhower" > wrote in
> message ...
> > Well, I did run the BurnIn Test several times and came up with no errors.
> > I
> > also reinstalled Windows Service Pack 2 and all my Audio and Video
> > Drivers.
> > The BurnIn Test worked well after that also. However, I am still having
> > some
> > problems.
> >
> > I will have to try the Memtest. I had run it 9 months ago when I
> > initially
> > bought my high end memory last summer and ran it overnight. Then I came
> > up
> > with no problems. Of course, it was also running at 333 instead of 400,
> > maybe that makes a difference.
> >
> > Right now I am running it with Hyper-Threading off. I will try to run
> > Memtest sometime today/tonight to rule that out.
> >
> > I currently have a 400W power supply that I had no problems with
> > before....If the Memtest comes up negative, is there a chance that this
> > could
> > be a problem?
> >
> > Well, Thanks again everyone for the advice.
> > --
> > Chuck Philhower
> >
>
>
>

[JS]

I recently had a Hard Drive issue (Hardware CRC errors) that cause my system
to crash from time to time.
There are some S.M.A.R.T. drive monitors available that can at least tell
you if you have any low level drive issues.

JS

"Chuck Philhower" > wrote in
message ...
> Thanks for the power calculation links, I should be ok there.
>
> Ran the memtest for 5 hours, no errors. Almost wish there were a problem
> there just to narrow down what is causing it. Also ran the Intel
> Hyper-Threading Utility to make sure my BIOS was ok and it was. I may try
> reformatting my hard drive next, and reinstalling Windows from scratch,
> but I
> will have to make lots of backups and make sure I can still get all the
> patches for all my other programs when I reinstall them. Bummer, I had
> thought everything was running great until I got this new processor.
> --
> Chuck Philhower
>
>
> "JS" wrote:
>
>> Chuck,
>>
>> Here is a google search link for calculating power supply demands, at
>> least
>> one of the listed sites should give you a ball park figure.
>> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=power%2Bsupply%2Bcalculator&btnG=Google+Search
>>
>> JS
>>
>> "Chuck Philhower" > wrote in
>> message ...
>> > Well, I did run the BurnIn Test several times and came up with no
>> > errors.
>> > I
>> > also reinstalled Windows Service Pack 2 and all my Audio and Video
>> > Drivers.
>> > The BurnIn Test worked well after that also. However, I am still
>> > having
>> > some
>> > problems.
>> >
>> > I will have to try the Memtest. I had run it 9 months ago when I
>> > initially
>> > bought my high end memory last summer and ran it overnight. Then I
>> > came
>> > up
>> > with no problems. Of course, it was also running at 333 instead of
>> > 400,
>> > maybe that makes a difference.
>> >
>> > Right now I am running it with Hyper-Threading off. I will try to run
>> > Memtest sometime today/tonight to rule that out.
>> >
>> > I currently have a 400W power supply that I had no problems with
>> > before....If the Memtest comes up negative, is there a chance that this
>> > could
>> > be a problem?
>> >
>> > Well, Thanks again everyone for the advice.
>> > --
>> > Chuck Philhower
>> >
>>
>>
>>

[Chuck Philhower]

I have been monitoring my hard drives with one of those SMART programs, so
far so good.

I am still crashing occasionally even with the Hyper-Threading turned off.
I am really bummed. I am 90% set on reinstalling my old processor as soon as
I get some more thermal compound. In the 3 years I had my computer before, I
NEVER crashed and probably froze less than 10 to 15 times MAX, none recently.

May still reinstall windows from scratch after a reformat, just because it
can't hurt, but I wish I knew just what it was that was causing it...

Oh Well
--
Chuck Philhower


"JS" wrote:

> I recently had a Hard Drive issue (Hardware CRC errors) that cause my system
> to crash from time to time.
> There are some S.M.A.R.T. drive monitors available that can at least tell
> you if you have any low level drive issues.
>
> JS

[[email protected]]

Well, sorry to hear things havn't improved - I know the feeling when
trying to figure these things out - it's very frustrating!!

One thing not yet mentioned is the cpu voltage setting. you might try
tweaking it up a bit to see if that stabilizes things. on my 865 system I
have it up a notch, since the "actual" reading is a bit lower that the
setting; w/ the tweak-up the actual is nuts on at 1.5. You can go to 1.6
safely, use a good monitor tool, the one recommended by the mobo maker.

FWIW, mine SEEMED stabil on first set-up, w/ the PAT tweak enabled (ie,
turbo mode), but I discovered that there were occasional memory errors w/
turbo on, so I forced it off and hand-optimized the ram timings. that made
it solid.

----

as for reduced performance, HT will cause a slight drop in a given
thread's performance, but overall system performance will be better.
also, Prescott's are a tad slower than Northwoods, due to their longer
pipelines.

----

good luck

[[email protected]]

I have had good luck w/ this product in analyzing crashes:


http://www.alexander.com/Products-Blue-Screen-BSOD-Crash/Alexander-SPK-Windows-Single-PC.html

it is not free tho. but it has pointed to bad drivers that were nearly
impossible to detect without it. perhaps worth considering.

[Chuck Philhower]

Well, I updated to the latest BIOS (P25 from P19) and while things seem a bit
quicker still, I am still get the occasional crash. I was hesitant about
updating the BIOS at first because a friend of mine did that once, it didn't
take and he couldn't get the old one back and ended up having to replace the
motherboard.

Anyway, I am not sure how to tweak my voltage settings in my BIOS, I looked
at it and I don't see how to set it anywhere. Maybe I missed it. Is is
related to the RAM Timings? I have those set to default (which is to say,
the default (recommend also) 5-2-3-2 (or 5-3-2-2...not sure) for the 2GB of
Patriot DDRAM PC3200 that I have). I can change them easily enough. I do
know my voltage hovers around 1.425V. I am using the Intel Active Monitor
for the motherboard. As far as the RAM timings, they have been that way for
nearly 9 months now and I only had a problem since the new processor, so I
don't know if there is a problem with them because of the increase in the FSB
or not.

I searched the internet on how to up the voltage in the BIOS, no luck. The
few visual samples I saw had different BIOS screens and settings that I don't
seem to have. I could be misunderstanding something also, as it is something
I have never done before. Funny, maybe it is me, but all the advice you see
is either for beginners (and not related) or advanced (as if I already knew
everything about what I was doing). I can never find that 'intermediate'
help LOL

Well, I thank you and everyone else again for all your patience

PS: Is there another BIOS that I can get for my motherboard (Intel 865GBF)
that allows me to adjust more settings, or should I stick with the one I got?
Just curious...

--
Chuck Philhower


" wrote:

> Well, sorry to hear things havn't improved - I know the feeling when
> trying to figure these things out - it's very frustrating!!
>
> One thing not yet mentioned is the cpu voltage setting. you might try
> tweaking it up a bit to see if that stabilizes things. on my 865 system I
> have it up a notch, since the "actual" reading is a bit lower that the
> setting; w/ the tweak-up the actual is nuts on at 1.5. You can go to 1.6
> safely, use a good monitor tool, the one recommended by the mobo maker.
>
> FWIW, mine SEEMED stabil on first set-up, w/ the PAT tweak enabled (ie,
> turbo mode), but I discovered that there were occasional memory errors w/
> turbo on, so I forced it off and hand-optimized the ram timings. that made
> it solid.
>
> ----
>
> as for reduced performance, HT will cause a slight drop in a given
> thread's performance, but overall system performance will be better.
> also, Prescott's are a tad slower than Northwoods, due to their longer
> pipelines.
>
> ----
>
> good luck
>
>

[Chuck Philhower]

I may look into this...you say it should catch problems with drivers, will it
catch problems with Windows also and let me know if it may be that? Just
wondering, the info on the site seems 'insufficient'

If I knew it would definately catch the problem, just knowing what the
problem(s) was would be worth the $39.

--
Chuck Philhower


" wrote:

> I have had good luck w/ this product in analyzing crashes:
>
>
> http://www.alexander.com/Products-Blue-Screen-BSOD-Crash/Alexander-SPK-Windows-Single-PC.html
>
> it is not free tho. but it has pointed to bad drivers that were nearly
> impossible to detect without it. perhaps worth considering.
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Intel brand mobo's typically do not have too many tweaks in them. Your
voltage seems reasonable (I thought 1.425 was low, but that's reasonable
for a prescott; northwoods were 1.525). A good util to have is CPU-Z,
it'll show you all the info about your CPU and your DRAM sticks, including
the SPD Timing info. Your sticks are pretty fast, and since you ran
memtest86+ w/ no errors it isn't your ram settings, it's something else.
Note that having HT on can "stess" a driver a bit more that w/o HT; most
driver bugs are timing related, and only show up once in a blue moon - HT
makes that more likely.

Alexander SPK mainly does an analysis when a crash occurs, looking for
things like a bad driver. 85% of windows crashes are due to a driver.
Even if it pinpoints the culprit however, there may not be a "better"
driver available. Be aware that a typical system has about 100 drivers
installed (there are more than 100,000 different drivers for windows out
there!); not all drivers are for "devices", often things get added into
the kernel via the driver mechanism even tho they have nothing to do w/ a
specific device. Drivers are the bain of windows, and MS has very little
control over them. Their WDM-Approved (or whatever they call it) is
supposed to "certify" drivers; you can use the File Signature Verification
tool to see which drivers installed in your system are signed and which
are not - presumably the signed ones are less likely to be a problem.

Did you install the Intel Chipset Drivers, I forget? I would do that just
to be sure.

I think at this point the culprit is NOT hyperthreading itself, HT simply
aggravates the problem. To me that smells of a driver.

Keep searching for answers, someone out there may have some insight.
Google in both WEB and GROUPS, use you mobo model number, and good luck.

Oh, and updating the bios was a good idea; did you know that the BIOS can
(and often does) update the MICROCODE inside the processor? Having intel's
latest bios should eliminate any doubt about that processor working on
that mobo (and w/ SP2).

[Chuck Philhower]

I don't know if this is anything, but I found on the Soundblaster site that
someone stated you should put your soundcard into PCI Slot #3 (on an intel
board) so it is assigned is own IRQ, because if not, it may interfere with a
hyperthreading processor if it is sharing its IRQ.

Right now, mine is in slot #5, and it shares its IRQ with 3 other devices.

Any thoughts on this before I tear apart my computer yet again?

Thanks

--
Chuck Philhower


" wrote:

> Intel brand mobo's typically do not have too many tweaks in them. Your
> voltage seems reasonable (I thought 1.425 was low, but that's reasonable
> for a prescott; northwoods were 1.525). A good util to have is CPU-Z,
> it'll show you all the info about your CPU and your DRAM sticks, including
> the SPD Timing info. Your sticks are pretty fast, and since you ran
> memtest86+ w/ no errors it isn't your ram settings, it's something else.
> Note that having HT on can "stess" a driver a bit more that w/o HT; most
> driver bugs are timing related, and only show up once in a blue moon - HT
> makes that more likely.
>
> Alexander SPK mainly does an analysis when a crash occurs, looking for
> things like a bad driver. 85% of windows crashes are due to a driver.
> Even if it pinpoints the culprit however, there may not be a "better"
> driver available. Be aware that a typical system has about 100 drivers
> installed (there are more than 100,000 different drivers for windows out
> there!); not all drivers are for "devices", often things get added into
> the kernel via the driver mechanism even tho they have nothing to do w/ a
> specific device. Drivers are the bain of windows, and MS has very little
> control over them. Their WDM-Approved (or whatever they call it) is
> supposed to "certify" drivers; you can use the File Signature Verification
> tool to see which drivers installed in your system are signed and which
> are not - presumably the signed ones are less likely to be a problem.
>
> Did you install the Intel Chipset Drivers, I forget? I would do that just
> to be sure.
>
> I think at this point the culprit is NOT hyperthreading itself, HT simply
> aggravates the problem. To me that smells of a driver.
>
> Keep searching for answers, someone out there may have some insight.
> Google in both WEB and GROUPS, use you mobo model number, and good luck.
>
> Oh, and updating the bios was a good idea; did you know that the BIOS can
> (and often does) update the MICROCODE inside the processor? Having intel's
> latest bios should eliminate any doubt about that processor working on
> that mobo (and w/ SP2).
>

[[email protected]]

Chuck Philhower > wrote:
> I don't know if this is anything, but I found on the Soundblaster site that
> someone stated you should put your soundcard into PCI Slot #3 (on an intel
> board) so it is assigned is own IRQ, because if not, it may interfere with a
> hyperthreading processor if it is sharing its IRQ.

> Right now, mine is in slot #5, and it shares its IRQ with 3 other devices.

> Any thoughts on this before I tear apart my computer yet again?

I suppose it's worth a try. Moving the card will change the IRQ that it
uses, tho WHICH IRQ is most likely mobo dependent. You may need to move
it a couple of times to see which one it switches to.

And yes, it does make sense - interrupts would be the most likely cause of
a timing related bug actually cropping up.

Moving the card should be fairly easy, BUT...

Recently, I put an X-FI card in, and my second video stopped working; I
moved the card to a different slot and it was unrecognized! I had to
completely reinstall the creative drivers to make it see the card again -
I'd never encountered that before, usually the system/driver/PnP just
notices the move and adjusts itself, w/o requiring a complete reinstall.
[plus it didn't resolve the issue - turned out I had to enlarge the AGP
Apature to fix the issue; took several days of googling to find the
soulution, but someone out there had the problem too and had posted
about it. The answers ARE out there...!].

BTW, my X-Fi is currently sitting on IRQ 20, all by itself.

[Chuck Philhower]

Well, I did some rearranging and got my sound card its own IRQ. Seem to run
fine for almost two days, then bammo, all the problems again.

I had noticed when I updated my Intel Active Monitor to the latest version
(when I put in the cpu), it replaced the SMBus Controller (driver?) with its
own and ended up sharing an IRQ 17 with something else. This morning I
updated that driver to the one Windows 'recommended' and now the SMBus
Controller has its own IRQ 3.
My Intel Active Monitor won't run on that driver, but I am going to see if
that was the cause (crossing fingers yet again.....)

Still occasionally run hardware tests, burnin, memtest etc, and everything
always comes up fine....It just has to be a software or driver issue or
hardware conflict and for some reason, I am determined to find out what it is
and solve it even if it drives me mad!!!

[[email protected]]

Well, good luck. [no sarcasim intended, I know your pain!]

I'd try eliminating 1 item at a time and see how it runs for a bit.
Start w/ Intel Active Monitor. Then drop additional startup items until
the problem goes away (if it does). Drivers are obviosuly harder to drop,
but you could turn off non-essential interfaces in the bios
(serial/parralel/etc). USB Legacy Support can cause problems, if you have
a PS2 keyboard and mouse you can most likely disable this one too; a
usb-only kb will require it tho.

But "one at a time" is the only way to remain sane. When you think you've
found the culprit add it back in and hope it fails again. And remember
even that is not sure-fire proof, coincidences do happen...

And consider Alexander SPK, $40 may be worth it.

-----

I hesitate to mention this ( ;-) ), but I have seen corrupt .PNF files in
the /inf directory cause problems. These are "precompiled INF files", and
can be deleted w/o problem (move them to a junk dir for safety if you'd
like). XP will rebuild the ones it needs on next reboot from the original
..INF files. It's a longshot, but...

[Chuck Philhower]

Well, I have been lucky so far today, no problems...

After having reread the readme that came with the newer Intel Active
Monitor, it does state that....

There are reported problems with the SMBus driver/controller reported if
Soundblaster Live! is installed in the PCI #2 that can be remedied if moved
to a different PCI slot.

Well, I had the Soundblaster Audigy 2ZS (not Live!) in PCI #6. Didn't cross
my mind at the time when I installed it...the driver slipped by me. I guess
my configuration also had problems, but to a greater extent. Seems pretty
obvious now after having reread it, and...manually going into the Device
Manager and clicking update driver for every single (not counting non plug
and play) driver I had. The SMBus was the only one that changed.

I sincerely hope that is what it was. You were right (hopefully) about a
driver causing it.

Thank for the help. I will report back hopefully in a few days with news
nothing has gone wrong....


--
Chuck Philhower


" wrote:

> Well, good luck. [no sarcasim intended, I know your pain!]
>
> I'd try eliminating 1 item at a time and see how it runs for a bit.
> Start w/ Intel Active Monitor. Then drop additional startup items until
> the problem goes away (if it does). Drivers are obviosuly harder to drop,
> but you could turn off non-essential interfaces in the bios
> (serial/parralel/etc). USB Legacy Support can cause problems, if you have
> a PS2 keyboard and mouse you can most likely disable this one too; a
> usb-only kb will require it tho.
>
> But "one at a time" is the only way to remain sane. When you think you've
> found the culprit add it back in and hope it fails again. And remember
> even that is not sure-fire proof, coincidences do happen...
>
> And consider Alexander SPK, $40 may be worth it.
>
> -----
>
> I hesitate to mention this ( ;-) ), but I have seen corrupt .PNF files in
> the /inf directory cause problems. These are "precompiled INF files", and
> can be deleted w/o problem (move them to a junk dir for safety if you'd
> like). XP will rebuild the ones it needs on next reboot from the original
> ..INF files. It's a longshot, but...
>
>
>
>

[Chuck Philhower]

Well, I still haven't solved everything. I have only had 3 crashes since I
last replied which is better, but even one is too many. After the first
recent crash, I broke down and purchased the Alexander SPK. It only found
one crash pre-install from May of last year, and none of the recent ones that
have been plaguing me. Well, fine, I figured I would just wait for the next
crash so I could generate a report and maybe clue me in.

No Such Luck. I have had 2 crashes with Alexander SPK installed and it
didn't generate any report what-so-ever on the crash, or even acknowledge a
crash other than restarting the computer (which I had previously set not to
in order to see the BSOD). Add to that, I needed to contact them just to get
the registration key that was supposed to be supplied when I purchased it
(another problem) in order to install it, I am not impressed. I am now in
contact with their support team to see why it is not generating reports. No
luck yet, but at least I can say, they are very very quick to respond to
email.

Hopefully I will report back with better news, and as always, if someone has
any additional clues, I would be entertain all possibilities.
--
Chuck Philhower


" wrote:

> Well, good luck. [no sarcasim intended, I know your pain!]
>
> I'd try eliminating 1 item at a time and see how it runs for a bit.
> Start w/ Intel Active Monitor. Then drop additional startup items until
> the problem goes away (if it does). Drivers are obviosuly harder to drop,
> but you could turn off non-essential interfaces in the bios
> (serial/parralel/etc). USB Legacy Support can cause problems, if you have
> a PS2 keyboard and mouse you can most likely disable this one too; a
> usb-only kb will require it tho.
>
> But "one at a time" is the only way to remain sane. When you think you've
> found the culprit add it back in and hope it fails again. And remember
> even that is not sure-fire proof, coincidences do happen...
>
> And consider Alexander SPK, $40 may be worth it.
>
> -----
>
> I hesitate to mention this ( ;-) ), but I have seen corrupt .PNF files in
> the /inf directory cause problems. These are "precompiled INF files", and
> can be deleted w/o problem (move them to a junk dir for safety if you'd
> like). XP will rebuild the ones it needs on next reboot from the original
> ..INF files. It's a longshot, but...
>
>
>
>

[Chuck Philhower]

Oh, I forgot to ask, If I move/delete the .PNF files, will I have to redo any
settings on the computer, or will my current settings remain. I am only
asking, as that is alot of .PNF files, just in case that is it....

Thanks.
--
Chuck Philhower


" wrote:

> Well, good luck. [no sarcasim intended, I know your pain!]
>
> I'd try eliminating 1 item at a time and see how it runs for a bit.
> Start w/ Intel Active Monitor. Then drop additional startup items until
> the problem goes away (if it does). Drivers are obviosuly harder to drop,
> but you could turn off non-essential interfaces in the bios
> (serial/parralel/etc). USB Legacy Support can cause problems, if you have
> a PS2 keyboard and mouse you can most likely disable this one too; a
> usb-only kb will require it tho.
>
> But "one at a time" is the only way to remain sane. When you think you've
> found the culprit add it back in and hope it fails again. And remember
> even that is not sure-fire proof, coincidences do happen...
>
> And consider Alexander SPK, $40 may be worth it.
>
> -----
>
> I hesitate to mention this ( ;-) ), but I have seen corrupt .PNF files in
> the /inf directory cause problems. These are "precompiled INF files", and
> can be deleted w/o problem (move them to a junk dir for safety if you'd
> like). XP will rebuild the ones it needs on next reboot from the original
> ..INF files. It's a longshot, but...
>
>
>
>

[Kerry Brown]

Chuck Philhower wrote:
> Well, I still haven't solved everything. I have only had 3 crashes
> since I last replied which is better, but even one is too many.
> After the first recent crash, I broke down and purchased the
> Alexander SPK. It only found one crash pre-install from May of last
> year, and none of the recent ones that have been plaguing me. Well,
> fine, I figured I would just wait for the next crash so I could
> generate a report and maybe clue me in.
>
> No Such Luck. I have had 2 crashes with Alexander SPK installed and
> it didn't generate any report what-so-ever on the crash, or even
> acknowledge a crash other than restarting the computer (which I had
> previously set not to in order to see the BSOD). Add to that, I
> needed to contact them just to get the registration key that was
> supposed to be supplied when I purchased it (another problem) in
> order to install it, I am not impressed. I am now in contact with
> their support team to see why it is not generating reports. No luck
> yet, but at least I can say, they are very very quick to respond to
> email.
>
> Hopefully I will report back with better news, and as always, if
> someone has any additional clues, I would be entertain all
> possibilities.
>

I know this has nothing to do with your hyperthreading problems but no
reports from a reboot indicates a power problem. You may have two problems.


--
Kerry
MS-MVP Windows - Shell/User

[[email protected]]

Chuck Philhower > wrote:
> Oh, I forgot to ask, If I move/delete the .PNF files, will I have to redo any
> settings on the computer, or will my current settings remain. I am only
> asking, as that is alot of .PNF files, just in case that is it....

No, settings will remain. Move the pnfs somewhere temporary (as a safety)
and reboot; all those that are actually needed will be rebuilt.

The comment about the power supply perhaps being faulty sounds reasonable
to me too. What brand and how big is it? What is the machine's
compliment of devices? A good 350 watts should drive a typical machine w/
a regular video card, 2 HDs and 2 opticals. Higher end video needs more.
Note your issue started when tou switched to a Prescott CPU, which does
draw more juice (you had a Northwood before, as I recall). But it only
draws a little bit more. FWIW, I have seen "flakey" setups "cured" by a
new power supply. Not that I'm encouraging you throw $$ at the beast.
Antec, Enermax, and PC Power and Cooling are the top names in PS's. When
shopping pay attention to the 20-pin vs. 24-pin connector - most made in
the last 12 months support both; typically it's 24-pin and you can
snap-off the extra 4 if you don't need 'em.

If you are totally unsatisfied w/ Alexander SPK then ask for a refund,
they are good people and should accomidate.

[Chuck Philhower]

Its something to think about, but the very few times I had crashed before
over the past 3 years, I never had a report. But, those few times may have
been just 'freezes' also...

Thanks for the info....
--
Chuck Philhower


"Kerry Brown" wrote:

> Chuck Philhower wrote:
> > Well, I still haven't solved everything. I have only had 3 crashes
> > since I last replied which is better, but even one is too many.
> > After the first recent crash, I broke down and purchased the
> > Alexander SPK. It only found one crash pre-install from May of last
> > year, and none of the recent ones that have been plaguing me. Well,
> > fine, I figured I would just wait for the next crash so I could
> > generate a report and maybe clue me in.
> >
> > No Such Luck. I have had 2 crashes with Alexander SPK installed and
> > it didn't generate any report what-so-ever on the crash, or even
> > acknowledge a crash other than restarting the computer (which I had
> > previously set not to in order to see the BSOD). Add to that, I
> > needed to contact them just to get the registration key that was
> > supposed to be supplied when I purchased it (another problem) in
> > order to install it, I am not impressed. I am now in contact with
> > their support team to see why it is not generating reports. No luck
> > yet, but at least I can say, they are very very quick to respond to
> > email.
> >
> > Hopefully I will report back with better news, and as always, if
> > someone has any additional clues, I would be entertain all
> > possibilities.
> >
>
> I know this has nothing to do with your hyperthreading problems but no
> reports from a reboot indicates a power problem. You may have two problems.
>
>
> --
> Kerry
> MS-MVP Windows - Shell/User
>
>
>

[Chuck Philhower]

I will try the pnf thing...you never know.

I will give Alexander a little more time, they are trying and staying in
close quick contact...

As far as the power supply and system....

My system...

Allied ATX 400W power supply
Intel D865GBF MB
Intel P4 3.0 GHz HT processor with HT currently off
2 Western Digital Hard drives, both 7200, one 120 GB, the other 250 GB
(primary)
ATI X800 XT 256 MB video card with 2 monitors attached
Soundblaster Audigy 2ZS
PCI USB Card
PCI Modem Card
Lite On CDRW
Lite On DVD Player

'Attachments'
Keyboard
Mouse - USB
Printer - USB
DSL Modem - USB
Webcam - USB
HP DVDRW External - Firewire
Joystick - USB

And out of those, I mainly only use the keyboard, mouse and DSL Modem. I
have my main systems hooked up to an uninteruptable power supply (Energizer
OF-800?)

I had been thinking about getting a new power supply, but it really isn't in
my budget yet.

Thanks again for putting up with me lol !

--
Chuck Philhower


" wrote:

> Chuck Philhower > wrote:
> > Oh, I forgot to ask, If I move/delete the .PNF files, will I have to redo any
> > settings on the computer, or will my current settings remain. I am only
> > asking, as that is alot of .PNF files, just in case that is it....
>
> No, settings will remain. Move the pnfs somewhere temporary (as a safety)
> and reboot; all those that are actually needed will be rebuilt.
>
> The comment about the power supply perhaps being faulty sounds reasonable
> to me too. What brand and how big is it? What is the machine's
> compliment of devices? A good 350 watts should drive a typical machine w/
> a regular video card, 2 HDs and 2 opticals. Higher end video needs more.
> Note your issue started when tou switched to a Prescott CPU, which does
> draw more juice (you had a Northwood before, as I recall). But it only
> draws a little bit more. FWIW, I have seen "flakey" setups "cured" by a
> new power supply. Not that I'm encouraging you throw $$ at the beast.
> Antec, Enermax, and PC Power and Cooling are the top names in PS's. When
> shopping pay attention to the 20-pin vs. 24-pin connector - most made in
> the last 12 months support both; typically it's 24-pin and you can
> snap-off the extra 4 if you don't need 'em.
>
> If you are totally unsatisfied w/ Alexander SPK then ask for a refund,
> they are good people and should accomidate.
>