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Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG
lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the canvas. That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) and especially for arrowing fantastically (again, all arrow, but there are a ton of ways to make curved arrows harder than they need to be) and for circling (again, Paint.NET just does it right). The only problem with Paint.NET is that the resulting file is ALWAYS twice the size (or so) than it needs to be. Dunno why, but I always have to run a subsequent Irfanview batch re-run just to "convert" the JPEG to JPEG of the same name but smaller size. In the Irfanview freeware, of course, there is a setting for the percent which I leave at the standard 80% and the first time you save in Paint.NET it asks you for the percentage, which I also set at 80% (which is pretty standard). So why does Irfanview invariably save the JPG files smaller? |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
In article , Stijn De Jong
wrote: On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the canvas. That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you need a dedicated text messaging app. |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 16:00:14 -0500, nospam
wrote: In article , Stijn De Jong wrote: On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the canvas. That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you need a dedicated text messaging app. You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"? Even reading that he uses Paint.NET to add captions? -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
In article , Tony Cooper
wrote: On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the canvas. That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you need a dedicated text messaging app. You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"? that's called annotating, not texting. texting has a well defined meaning which is not the same as annotating. |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 16:42:09 -0500, nospam
wrote: In article , Tony Cooper wrote: On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the canvas. That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you need a dedicated text messaging app. You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"? that's called annotating, not texting. texting has a well defined meaning which is not the same as annotating. Yes. It's obvious he made an error in the choice of his words. What is also obvious is that there was no need to point it out. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
In article , Tony Cooper
wrote: On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the canvas. That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you need a dedicated text messaging app. You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"? that's called annotating, not texting. texting has a well defined meaning which is not the same as annotating. Yes. It's obvious he made an error in the choice of his words. What is also obvious is that there was no need to point it out. there was. |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
"Stijn De Jong" wrote
| So why does Irfanview invariably save the JPG files smaller? It's hard to know without knowing the whole process, and I've also never used Paint.Net. (It always requires the latest version of .Net, which is gigantic, so I've never tried it.) I wonder if the size difference might be happening from degradation. When you want to work on an image you should save it as BMP or TIF and only save as JPG, if you must for some reason, for a final save. The only reason I know of to use JPG is to get a small file size for use in webpages. The problem with JPG is that every save is "lossy". Even when you set no compression it's still dropping out data. So if you save in IV, then save in PN, then save again in IV, you're saving a more damaged, more simple image each time. And the first image, if it started as JPG, was already damaged. The final IV save may be smaller because the image has been degraded and therefore compresses better. |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
Stijn De Jong wrote:
On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the canvas. That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) and especially for arrowing fantastically (again, all arrow, but there are a ton of ways to make curved arrows harder than they need to be) and for circling (again, Paint.NET just does it right). The only problem with Paint.NET is that the resulting file is ALWAYS twice the size (or so) than it needs to be. Dunno why, but I always have to run a subsequent Irfanview batch re-run just to "convert" the JPEG to JPEG of the same name but smaller size. In the Irfanview freeware, of course, there is a setting for the percent which I leave at the standard 80% and the first time you save in Paint.NET it asks you for the percentage, which I also set at 80% (which is pretty standard). So why does Irfanview invariably save the JPG files smaller? Find a parser and compare the structure of the files ? https://betanews.com/2016/06/27/iden...noop/#comments http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/jpegsnoop.html Paul |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 16:53:47 -0500, nospam
wrote: In article , Tony Cooper wrote: On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the canvas. That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you need a dedicated text messaging app. You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"? that's called annotating, not texting. texting has a well defined meaning which is not the same as annotating. Yes. It's obvious he made an error in the choice of his words. What is also obvious is that there was no need to point it out. there was. Only in your little mind. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 18:02:22 -0500, Mayayana wrote:
It's hard to know without knowing the whole process, Hi Mayayana, Good point. Here's an easily reproduceable test I just ran for this purpose. 1. I chose an interesting photo on the web from this news article: http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/0...t-a-stalemate/ 2. I found various sizes for that photo, on the web: a.jpg This photo saved to a 301 KB file that was 480x640 pixels. http://www.mercurynews.com/wp-conten...de-0209-10.jpg b.jpg This photo saved to a 107 KB file that was 768x1,024 pixels. http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/57/04/25.../1024x1024.jpg c.jpg This photo saved to a 1,439 KB file that was 1,661x2,142 pixels. http://hips.htvapps.com/htv-prod-med...1486597218.jpg Here is a screenshot of the original sizes: http://i.cubeupload.com/2Vj9JN.jpg Here is the original set of files: a.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/gJZkIv.jpg b.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/OFO2qM.jpg c.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/p1DwzR.jpg 3. I kept the originals in a folder called (1) and copied them to folders called (2) and (3). 4. In folder 2, I opened each file in Irfanview 4.35 on Windows XP Home, and simply saved the files (using Control+S) to the same folder with the settings of 80% with nothing else checked in the Irfanview save options form. http://i.cubeupload.com/1HpOBi.jpg 5. The result of the Irfanview "80% Quality" save was the following: a.jpg went from 301 KB to 82 KB. b.jpg went from 107 KB to 129 KB. c.jpg went from 1,439 KB to 411 KB. Screenshot: http://i.cubeupload.com/F3rx3H.jpg Here are the "80% Quality" saved set of files from Irfanview: a.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/5CQvkX.jpg b.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/mwVhkF.jpg c.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/i4JRZB.jpg 6. In folder 3, I opened each file in Paint.NET v3.5.10 (Final Release build 3.510.4297.28964). I saved each file using "Control+S" with the Quality set to 80%. http://i.cubeupload.com/0Ywebc.jpg 7. The result of the Paint.NET "80% Quality" save was the following: a.jpg went from 301 KB to 86 KB. b.jpg went from 107 KB to 153 KB. c.jpg went from 1,439 KB to 417 KB. Screenshot: http://i.cubeupload.com/wVwxxW.jpg Here are the "80% Quality" saved set of files from Paint.NET: a.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/LcLpRF.jpg b.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/Bjwneu.jpg c.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/jBDOQl.jpg Hmmmmmm... that's interesting. In this simplified baseline test, the file sizes didn't double going from Irfanview to Paint.NET. This is interesting because it's a good very simple baseline. So my observed doubling of sizes must be due to something else other than just "saving" the files, which happens when I "resized" in Irfanview, added a canvas in Irfanview, and then "added captions" in Paint.NET and then saved in Paint.NET (and then had to resize again in Irfanview). Hmmmm... More tests needed since the baseline test shows that the sizes are roughly equivalent. Do you concur? |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On 2/15/2017 12:19 PM, Stijn De Jong wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 18:02:22 -0500, Mayayana wrote: It's hard to know without knowing the whole process, Hi Mayayana, Good point. Here's an easily reproduceable test I just ran for this purpose. 1. I chose an interesting photo on the web from this news article: http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/0...t-a-stalemate/ 2. I found various sizes for that photo, on the web: a.jpg This photo saved to a 301 KB file that was 480x640 pixels. http://www.mercurynews.com/wp-conten...de-0209-10.jpg b.jpg This photo saved to a 107 KB file that was 768x1,024 pixels. http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/57/04/25.../1024x1024.jpg c.jpg This photo saved to a 1,439 KB file that was 1,661x2,142 pixels. http://hips.htvapps.com/htv-prod-med...1486597218.jpg Here is a screenshot of the original sizes: http://i.cubeupload.com/2Vj9JN.jpg Here is the original set of files: a.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/gJZkIv.jpg b.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/OFO2qM.jpg c.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/p1DwzR.jpg 3. I kept the originals in a folder called (1) and copied them to folders called (2) and (3). 4. In folder 2, I opened each file in Irfanview 4.35 on Windows XP Home, and simply saved the files (using Control+S) to the same folder with the settings of 80% with nothing else checked in the Irfanview save options form. http://i.cubeupload.com/1HpOBi.jpg 5. The result of the Irfanview "80% Quality" save was the following: a.jpg went from 301 KB to 82 KB. b.jpg went from 107 KB to 129 KB. c.jpg went from 1,439 KB to 411 KB. Screenshot: http://i.cubeupload.com/F3rx3H.jpg Here are the "80% Quality" saved set of files from Irfanview: a.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/5CQvkX.jpg b.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/mwVhkF.jpg c.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/i4JRZB.jpg 6. In folder 3, I opened each file in Paint.NET v3.5.10 (Final Release build 3.510.4297.28964). I saved each file using "Control+S" with the Quality set to 80%. http://i.cubeupload.com/0Ywebc.jpg 7. The result of the Paint.NET "80% Quality" save was the following: a.jpg went from 301 KB to 86 KB. b.jpg went from 107 KB to 153 KB. c.jpg went from 1,439 KB to 417 KB. Screenshot: http://i.cubeupload.com/wVwxxW.jpg Here are the "80% Quality" saved set of files from Paint.NET: a.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/LcLpRF.jpg b.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/Bjwneu.jpg c.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/jBDOQl.jpg Hmmmmmm... that's interesting. In this simplified baseline test, the file sizes didn't double going from Irfanview to Paint.NET. This is interesting because it's a good very simple baseline. So my observed doubling of sizes must be due to something else other than just "saving" the files, which happens when I "resized" in Irfanview, added a canvas in Irfanview, and then "added captions" in Paint.NET and then saved in Paint.NET (and then had to resize again in Irfanview). Hmmmm... More tests needed since the baseline test shows that the sizes are roughly equivalent. Do you concur? A jpg file's size is less related to file sizeimage dimensions than to other qualities of the image. You might save a bit of time by learning the history of the format and some ways that the images are altered during conversion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG -- best regards, Neil |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
"Stijn De Jong" wrote
| So my observed doubling of sizes must be due to something else other than | just "saving" the files, which happens when I "resized" in Irfanview, Whaddaya mean, resized? I assumed these were all images of the same pixel dimensions, but resaved and with added text. (I'm not sure what you mean by adding a canvas. A monotone rectandgle for text?) It's interesting that IV seems to have brightened the image saved, while PN didn't. Assuming you save a JPG, work on it as a JPG, and don't change the pixel dimensions, I would expect that any change on file size is resulting from lost data and therefore a simpler image that compresses better. Why not save as TIF or BMP, then do your work? From there you can then try saving to JPG and see what you get. If all of your saves are to JPG then you're not dealing with the same image each time, even if you set JPG compression at "100". (Or 0, depending on the software.) JPG always loses data with each save. |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On 2/14/2017 4:53 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Tony Cooper wrote: On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the canvas. That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you need a dedicated text messaging app. You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"? that's called annotating, not texting. texting has a well defined meaning which is not the same as annotating. Yes. It's obvious he made an error in the choice of his words. What is also obvious is that there was no need to point it out. there was. I agree, there was a need to point it out. The need was to satisfy your child like urge to comment. As you have so often said, "it was "picking on words." -- PeterN |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On 2/15/2017 5:56 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Stijn De Jong" wrote | So my observed doubling of sizes must be due to something else other than | just "saving" the files, which happens when I "resized" in Irfanview, Whaddaya mean, resized? I assumed these were all images of the same pixel dimensions, but resaved and with added text. (I'm not sure what you mean by adding a canvas. A monotone rectandgle for text?) It's interesting that IV seems to have brightened the image saved, while PN didn't. Assuming you save a JPG, work on it as a JPG, and don't change the pixel dimensions, I would expect that any change on file size is resulting from lost data and therefore a simpler image that compresses better. Why not save as TIF or BMP, then do your work? From there you can then try saving to JPG and see what you get. If all of your saves are to JPG then you're not dealing with the same image each time, even if you set JPG compression at "100". (Or 0, depending on the software.) JPG always loses data with each save. Common use for method of of adding canvas, in Photoshop. https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/bluecorps/2015/11/12/adding-more-space-to-your-photoshop-canvas/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zhrQ1EyoTY -- PeterN |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 18:03:21 -0500, PeterN
wrote: On 2/14/2017 4:53 PM, nospam wrote: In article , Tony Cooper wrote: On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the canvas. That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you need a dedicated text messaging app. You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"? that's called annotating, not texting. texting has a well defined meaning which is not the same as annotating. Yes. It's obvious he made an error in the choice of his words. What is also obvious is that there was no need to point it out. there was. I agree, there was a need to point it out. The need was to satisfy your child like urge to comment. As you have so often said, "it was "picking on words." He doesn't like it when his are picked on, but jumps in to pick on the word's of others when the wrong one is chosen. I would seriously doubt if anyone was confused by the OP's error. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
In article , Tony Cooper
wrote: On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the canvas. That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you need a dedicated text messaging app. You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"? that's called annotating, not texting. texting has a well defined meaning which is not the same as annotating. Yes. It's obvious he made an error in the choice of his words. What is also obvious is that there was no need to point it out. there was. I agree, there was a need to point it out. The need was to satisfy your child like urge to comment. As you have so often said, "it was "picking on words." He doesn't like it when his are picked on, but jumps in to pick on the word's of others when the wrong one is chosen. says the person who jumps on the words of others, particularly me, going so far to intentionally lie and twist what i say solely to argue and criticize it, just as you are doing here. when others make 'an obvious error', you give them a free pass and then criticize me for doing what you normally do. you're a hypocrite, among other things. |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
In message , Tony Cooper
writes: [] He doesn't like it when his are picked on, but jumps in to pick on the word's of others when the wrong one is chosen. WORD'S? (Sorry, couldn't resist.) I would seriously doubt if anyone was confused by the OP's error. I suspect you're right. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf If you're playing a killer monster, be very quiet. - Anthony Hopkins, RT 2016/10/22-28 |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
In message , Mayayana
writes: [] try saving to JPG and see what you get. If all of your saves are to JPG then you're not dealing with the same image each time, even if you set JPG compression at "100". (Or 0, depending on the software.) JPG always loses data with each save. I've long suspected it to be as you say, but if that _is_ the case, what does the 100% (or 0) actually _mean_? -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf If you're playing a killer monster, be very quiet. - Anthony Hopkins, RT 2016/10/22-28 |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On 2017-02-16 00:03:01 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
said: In message , Mayayana writes: [] try saving to JPG and see what you get. If all of your saves are to JPG then you're not dealing with the same image each time, even if you set JPG compression at "100". (Or 0, depending on the software.) JPG always loses data with each save. I've long suspected it to be as you say, but if that _is_ the case, what does the 100% (or 0) actually _mean_? It means that the compression algorithm of whatever software is in use will not apply additional compression beyond the lossyness to be found with each save/resave. Unfortunately, JPEG being what it is, is always going to be subject to a degree of data and IQ loss on each save/resave. Using a 100% or 0% (depending on software) compression setting will still result in data loss, and will more than likely have very visible JPEG compression artifacts present. Do that enough times and add in resizing, the degradation in the JPEG will be unacceptable to all but the least critical eye, even if the file size might have grown. -- Regards, Savageduck |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
In message 20170215163740260-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, Savageduck
writes: On 2017-02-16 00:03:01 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" said: In message , Mayayana writes: [] try saving to JPG and see what you get. If all of your saves are to JPG then you're not dealing with the same image each time, even if you set JPG compression at "100". (Or 0, depending on the software.) JPG always loses data with each save. I've long suspected it to be as you say, but if that _is_ the case, what does the 100% (or 0) actually _mean_? It means that the compression algorithm of whatever software is in use will not apply additional compression beyond the lossyness to be found with each save/resave. Unfortunately, JPEG being what it is, is always going to be subject to a degree of data and IQ loss on each save/resave. Using a 100% or 0% (depending on software) compression setting will still result in data loss, and will more than likely have very visible JPEG compression artifacts present. Do that enough times and add in resizing, the degradation in the JPEG will be unacceptable to all but the least critical eye, even if the file size might have grown. So are you saying there are two different _sorts_ of data compression applied when you save a JPEG? -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Science fiction is escape into reality - Arthur C Clarke |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 18:54:40 -0500, nospam
wrote: In article , Tony Cooper wrote: On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the canvas. That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you need a dedicated text messaging app. You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"? that's called annotating, not texting. texting has a well defined meaning which is not the same as annotating. Yes. It's obvious he made an error in the choice of his words. What is also obvious is that there was no need to point it out. there was. I agree, there was a need to point it out. The need was to satisfy your child like urge to comment. As you have so often said, "it was "picking on words." He doesn't like it when his are picked on, but jumps in to pick on the word's of others when the wrong one is chosen. says the person who jumps on the words of others, particularly me, going so far to intentionally lie and twist what i say solely to argue and criticize it, just as you are doing here. when others make 'an obvious error', you give them a free pass and then criticize me for doing what you normally do. Sure. I give non-native speakers of English a free pass*, You should know better. Try responding to the OP in Dutch. *Unless they brag about how good their English is. What lie? What was twisted? -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 00:01:45 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote: In message , Tony Cooper writes: [] He doesn't like it when his are picked on, but jumps in to pick on the word's of others when the wrong one is chosen. WORD'S? (Sorry, couldn't resist.) It's a fair cop, Guv. I would seriously doubt if anyone was confused by the OP's error. I suspect you're right. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On 2017-02-16 01:27:07 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
said: In message 20170215163740260-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, Savageduck writes: On 2017-02-16 00:03:01 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" said: In message , Mayayana writes: [] try saving to JPG and see what you get. If all of your saves are to JPG then you're not dealing with the same image each time, even if you set JPG compression at "100". (Or 0, depending on the software.) JPG always loses data with each save. I've long suspected it to be as you say, but if that _is_ the case, what does the 100% (or 0) actually _mean_? It means that the compression algorithm of whatever software is in use will not apply additional compression beyond the lossyness to be found with each save/resave. Unfortunately, JPEG being what it is, is always going to be subject to a degree of data and IQ loss on each save/resave. Using a 100% or 0% (depending on software) compression setting will still result in data loss, and will more than likely have very visible JPEG compression artifacts present. Do that enough times and add in resizing, the degradation in the JPEG will be unacceptable to all but the least critical eye, even if the file size might have grown. So are you saying there are two different _sorts_ of data compression applied when you save a JPEG? No. I am saying that whenever you save, resave, or save as a JPEG it is subject to degradation of image quality regardless of the compression settings made in the software. One might not initially detect that compression or image degradation, but it is always there and will be exbacerbated with subsequent saves/resaves/saves as. JPEG files are always lossy. Different software might express how compression is selected differently. Some software might adjust compression by setting alleged quality of the saved JPEG as a percentage of quality; i.e. 100% not meaning that there will be no compression, but just the least compression that particular software is capable of. There will always be compression, it is in the nature of JPEG files which are a lossy format. That is equally true of software which expresses compression or file save quality in other ways, as a percentage of compression, or on a quality scale of 1-10. Compression of any image file saved/resaved/saved as JPEG will always exist. The degree of compression can be adjusted, but the damage and degradation is cumulative for each subsequent JPEG save. If you want to maintain image quality through editing or adjustment start with RAW image files and work on lossless file types such as TIFF, PSD, or even PNG. Only once you are done editing/adjusting a RAW or lossless image file, should you save a JPEG for whatever purpose you had in mind. -- Regards, Savageduck |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
In article , Tony Cooper
wrote: That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you need a dedicated text messaging app. You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"? that's called annotating, not texting. texting has a well defined meaning which is not the same as annotating. Yes. It's obvious he made an error in the choice of his words. What is also obvious is that there was no need to point it out. there was. I agree, there was a need to point it out. The need was to satisfy your child like urge to comment. As you have so often said, "it was "picking on words." He doesn't like it when his are picked on, but jumps in to pick on the word's of others when the wrong one is chosen. says the person who jumps on the words of others, particularly me, going so far to intentionally lie and twist what i say solely to argue and criticize it, just as you are doing here. when others make 'an obvious error', you give them a free pass and then criticize me for doing what you normally do. Sure. I give non-native speakers of English a free pass*, You should know better. Try responding to the OP in Dutch. and in fact, i do know better. as usual, you are butting in just to attack. the person in question is a well known troll who lives in the santa cruz mountains and is a native english speaker. he regularly spoofs his address, however, his style is unmistakable and easily outed. both savageduck and myself know him quite well from other newsgroups. *Unless they brag about how good their English is. What lie? What was twisted? everything. |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On 2017-02-16 01:48:52 +0000, Tony Cooper said:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 18:54:40 -0500, nospam wrote: In article , Tony Cooper wrote: On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the canvas. That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you need a dedicated text messaging app. You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"? that's called annotating, not texting. texting has a well defined meaning which is not the same as annotating. Yes. It's obvious he made an error in the choice of his words. What is also obvious is that there was no need to point it out. there was. I agree, there was a need to point it out. The need was to satisfy your child like urge to comment. As you have so often said, "it was "picking on words." He doesn't like it when his are picked on, but jumps in to pick on the word's of others when the wrong one is chosen. says the person who jumps on the words of others, particularly me, going so far to intentionally lie and twist what i say solely to argue and criticize it, just as you are doing here. when others make 'an obvious error', you give them a free pass and then criticize me for doing what you normally do. Sure. I give non-native speakers of English a free pass*, You should know better. Try responding to the OP in Dutch. The OP is not Dutch. He lives in Santa Clara County, in the hills above San Jose, and claims to have an Ivy League education. He is a well known Nym shifter and ISP falsifier. He can be found voicing his opinion using various nyms in misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.ipad, and comp.mobile.android. Sometimes he is genuinely seeking advice and help, and I am prepared to render whatever advice and assistance I can, until the thread degrades into a troll fest. *Unless they brag about how good their English is. Without claiming Dutch nationality, he has already made that boast in other NG's, along with many other types of unsubstantiated boast. What lie? What was twisted? -- Regards, Savageduck |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
"PeterN" wrote
| Common use for method of of adding canvas, in Photoshop. | | https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/bluecorps/2015/11/12/adding-more-space-to-your-photoshop-canvas/ | I still don't really get it. It's the term itself. Does it refer to the image as a 2-D space? If I look in PSP I see resizing the canvas. It seems to mean the same as creating a new image and pasting the image onto that, which is what I would do. So when Stijn refers to "adding a canvas" does he mean that -- creating a larger background around the original image? |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
In article 2017021518133987929-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
Savageduck wrote: Sure. I give non-native speakers of English a free pass*, You should know better. Try responding to the OP in Dutch. The OP is not Dutch. He lives in Santa Clara County, in the hills above San Jose, and claims to have an Ivy League education. He is a well known Nym shifter and ISP falsifier. He can be found voicing his opinion using various nyms in misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.ipad, and comp.mobile.android. and the numerous (often irrelevant) groups to which he crossposts. Sometimes he is genuinely seeking advice and help, and I am prepared to render whatever advice and assistance I can, until the thread degrades into a troll fest. which is usually rather quickly because he ignores the advice and starts ranting. *Unless they brag about how good their English is. Without claiming Dutch nationality, he has already made that boast in other NG's, along with many other types of unsubstantiated boast. indeed he has. |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 18:10:49 -0500, PeterN wrote:
Common use for method of of adding canvas, in Photoshop. https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/bluecorps/2015/11/12/adding-more-space-to-your-photoshop-canvas/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zhrQ1EyoTY Here is an example of an original file, and then the file with a canvas batch added automatically by Irvanview, and then that file annotated in three ways in Paint.NET (which does those three annotations better than any other free program alive that I know of). Please note I'm explaining below all the steps I do with batches of files that contain hundreds upon hundreds of files - but in this particular case, we're only working on a single file. STARTING POINT: 1,439 KB file that was 1,661x2,142 pixels. http://hips.htvapps.com/htv-prod-med...1486597218.jpg 1. This is the original 1,439KB photo that I saved from the above URL: http://i.cubeupload.com/DAZw1N.jpg a. Irfanview: File Open fname.jpg b. Irfanview: File Thumbnails c. Thumbnails: Options Select all d. Thumbnails: File JPG Lossless Operations Lossless rotation with selected files e. Irfanview: File Start batch dialog with selected files f. In the batch dialog, I set the "Options" to resize to 800x600 and to save at 80% Quality (and nothing else). I also set the "Advanced" options to add a white canvas to the bottom. If I want, I can set a trillion other options, but I won't bother explaining them here. Here is a screenshot of the Irfanview "Options": http://i.cubeupload.com/l6gNYt.jpg Here is a screenshot of the Irfanview "Advanced" options: http://i.cubeupload.com/sz8Zar.jpg 2. This is the photo after Irfanview 80% batch resized it to 800x600 & Irfanview added a white canvas to the bottom: http://i.cubeupload.com/qfcHIm.jpg It is now 149 KB. 3. This is the photo after annotating with Paint.NET: http://i.cubeupload.com/wpMEIS.jpg It is now 187 KB. 4. This is the photo re-re-sized by Irfanview at 80% Quality: http://i.cubeupload.com/tYHmt8.jpg It is now 184 KB. Hmmm... again, it didn't show the almost doubling of size I normally see. I think the starting point photo is the difference, since I normally start with my own photos from my own camera, and not with photos from the web! I need to do the test again, but with my own photos! |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 18:10:49 -0500, PeterN wrote:
Common use for method of of adding canvas, in Photoshop. https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/bluecorps/2015/11/12/adding-more-space-to-your-photoshop-canvas/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zhrQ1EyoTY Here is an example of an original file, and then the file with a canvas batch added automatically by Irvanview, and then that file annotated in three ways in Paint.NET (which does those three annotations better than any other free program alive that I know of). Please note I'm explaining below all the steps I do with batches of files that contain hundreds upon hundreds of files - but in this particular case, we're only working on a single file. STARTING POINT: 1,439 KB file that was 1,661x2,142 pixels. http://hips.htvapps.com/htv-prod-med...1486597218.jpg 1. This is the original 1,439KB photo that I saved from the above URL: http://i.cubeupload.com/DAZw1N.jpg a. Irfanview: File Open fname.jpg b. Irfanview: File Thumbnails c. Thumbnails: Options Select all d. Thumbnails: File JPG Lossless Operations Lossless rotation with selected files e. Irfanview: File Start batch dialog with selected files f. In the batch dialog, I set the "Options" to resize to 800x600 and to save at 80% Quality (and nothing else). I also set the "Advanced" options to add a white canvas to the bottom. If I want, I can set a trillion other options, but I won't bother explaining them here. Here is a screenshot of the Irfanview "Options": http://i.cubeupload.com/l6gNYt.jpg Here is a screenshot of the Irfanview "Advanced" options: http://i.cubeupload.com/sz8Zar.jpg 2. This is the photo after Irfanview 80% batch resized it to 800x600 & Irfanview added a white canvas to the bottom: http://i.cubeupload.com/qfcHIm.jpg It is now 149 KB. 3. This is the photo after annotating with Paint.NET: http://i.cubeupload.com/wpMEIS.jpg It is now 187 KB. 4. This is the photo re-re-sized by Irfanview at 80% Quality: http://i.cubeupload.com/tYHmt8.jpg It is now 184 KB. Hmmm... again, it didn't show the almost doubling of size I normally see. I think the starting point photo is the difference, since I normally start with my own photos from my own camera, and not with photos from the web! I need to do the test again, but with my own photos! |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 17:56:19 -0500, Mayayana wrote:
It's interesting that IV seems to have brightened the image saved, while PN didn't. Thank you for noticing that anomaly. I think it's because I have the "Auto adjust colors" option set in Irfanview by default! http://i.cubeupload.com/kB1aI5.jpg |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 17:57:17 -0800, Savageduck wrote:
I am saying that whenever you save, resave, or save as a JPEG it is subject to degradation of image quality regardless of the compression settings made in the software I can't argue what you're saying, but I will point out that Irfanview has what they call a JPG "lossless" crop and rotation, so they must be special cases in some way. http://i.cubeupload.com/OymrtK.jpg |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
In article , Stijn De Jong
wrote: I am saying that whenever you save, resave, or save as a JPEG it is subject to degradation of image quality regardless of the compression settings made in the software I can't argue what you're saying, but I will point out that Irfanview has what they call a JPG "lossless" crop and rotation, so they must be special cases in some way. they are. |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote
| I've long suspected it to be as you say, but if that _is_ the case, what | does the 100% (or 0) actually _mean_? As far as I know it's an arbitrary scale. It's not percentage, although that seems like a reasonable assumption. I don't really understand how it all works, except that uniqueness between pixels is dropped out in ways that the human eye tends not to notice, in order to require less data to store the image pixels. Or to put it another way, the image is degraded in a very clever way to make it look as good as possible despite the damage. The 0-100 Quality scale does correspond to a degree of compression, but the 0-100 range itself seems to be just a convenience -- a handy numeric range to convey the realitsic range of compression. There's a chart he https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG It correlates compression ratio with Quality factor. But even that seems to be deceptive, because it's lossy compression. So it's not really a factor of how much compression there is but of how much data is dropped out. If there's also a ZIP-style compression operation involved I don't know what it is. The article explains that the highest quality is encoded at 8-9 bits per pixel. An actual displayed pixel is 24-bit, so that seems to be about 2/3 of the data dropped out, by reducing uniqueness. The 8-9 would be an average. That can be clearly seen in the J.P.G. "gravestone" sample images. At lower compression levels there's extreme dithering. At each level there's less uniqueness in any given area. |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On 2017-02-16 02:48:51 +0000, Stijn De Jong said:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 17:57:17 -0800, Savageduck wrote: I am saying that whenever you save, resave, or save as a JPEG it is subject to degradation of image quality regardless of the compression settings made in the software I can't argue what you're saying, but I will point out that Irfanview has what they call a JPG "lossless" crop and rotation, so they must be special cases in some way. http://i.cubeupload.com/OymrtK.jpg That applies only to crop and/or rotation without additional adjustment, editing or resizing, made to a rotated or cropped image with the "JPG lossless" function applied. This is one of those features which can work occassionally, but is generally subject to the same lossy characteristics of all JPEG's. Again, one would need to make a close examination of the uncropped/unrotated original JPG against the "JPG Lossless crop/rotation" result to determine the degree of success of the Irfanview "JPG Lossless crop/rotation" claim. You might get away with using that once or twice, but the failings of JPEG compression will catch up with you. -- Regards, Savageduck |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 21:19:14 -0500, Mayayana wrote:
I still don't really get it. It's the term itself. Does it refer to the image as a 2-D space? If I look in PSP I see resizing the canvas. It seems to mean the same as creating a new image and pasting the image onto that, which is what I would do. So when Stijn refers to "adding a canvas" does he mean that -- creating a larger background around the original image? Here is where I get the word "canvas" from. When I need a colored (usually white) area on the side (usually bottom) of an image for a caption, I can use either Irfanview or Paint.NET to create that white space, both of which refer to the white space as a "canvas". 1. Irfanview Canvas: Here is the Irfanview GUI to create that border white space: http://i.cubeupload.com/CrZ318.jpg 2. Paint.NET Canvas: Here is the Paint.NET GUI to create that border white space. http://i.cubeupload.com/7NwPzt.jpg Both Irfanview and Paint.NET call it the "canvas". So I call it the canvas. Do you call it something else? |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
"Stijn De Jong" wrote
| 2. This is the photo after Irfanview 80% batch resized it to 800x600 & | Irfanview added a white canvas to the bottom: | http://i.cubeupload.com/qfcHIm.jpg | It is now 149 KB. I see. I think it's deceptive to think of "adding a canvas". IV has decompressed the JPG in order to display it and then paints that on the larger background that you specify. At that point it's a bitmap that's been painted to a larger background bitmap. There's no loss of data there. Once you resave that it's going back to JPG so you'll lose data. You then open that in PN and add text, then save. PN is doing the same thing. It has to decompress and render a bitmap in order to work on the image, but then when you resave as JPG it's compressing that bitmap, which is already an image of a compressed image. It's misleading to think of it as just an image that you're moving here and there. As a bitmap that's true. A bitmap is just that: a map of each pixel's color values as numbers. When that's saved to JPG the map is simplified so that it can take up less space. But it's lossy. So when you then open the image again you're opening a bitmap that's had data dumped. You can't get that detail back. That happens every time you work on it. Save a bitmap 20 times and it's still the same bitmap. Save a JPG 20 times and you reduce it to sludge. If you could do the ops all at once you'd be better off. Do all of the operations in PN, then save as TIF, in case you want that image for something later. (In this case TIF should be just a bitmap with lossless compression. You can also save it as a BMP, but a BMP can be shrunk to about 10% original size by just applying ZIP compression, which doesn't change the bitmap. So TIFs are the same thing but smaller.) Then you can also save as JPG when you're done, if necessary. That will give you the best possible quality and you can then play with reducing JPG quality in order to get a smaller file. Or if the size is not critical and you'e putting it online, you can save to PNG. That will shrink the file size without losing data. But it won't get as small. |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 21:10:47 -0500, nospam
wrote: In article , Tony Cooper wrote: That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that other editors make texting hard) paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you need a dedicated text messaging app. You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"? that's called annotating, not texting. texting has a well defined meaning which is not the same as annotating. Yes. It's obvious he made an error in the choice of his words. What is also obvious is that there was no need to point it out. there was. I agree, there was a need to point it out. The need was to satisfy your child like urge to comment. As you have so often said, "it was "picking on words." He doesn't like it when his are picked on, but jumps in to pick on the word's of others when the wrong one is chosen. says the person who jumps on the words of others, particularly me, going so far to intentionally lie and twist what i say solely to argue and criticize it, just as you are doing here. when others make 'an obvious error', you give them a free pass and then criticize me for doing what you normally do. Sure. I give non-native speakers of English a free pass*, You should know better. Try responding to the OP in Dutch. and in fact, i do know better. as usual, you are butting in just to attack. the person in question is a well known troll who lives in the santa cruz mountains and is a native english speaker. he regularly spoofs his address, however, his style is unmistakable and easily outed. both savageduck and myself know him quite well from other newsgroups. Well, then, I apologize. I wasn't aware of that. Why, if you knew this, did you even bother to reply? *Unless they brag about how good their English is. What lie? What was twisted? everything. No, no lie, nothing twisted, just a lack of knowledge about the backstory. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
"Stijn De Jong" wrote
| | I am saying that whenever you save, resave, or save as a JPEG it is | subject to degradation of image quality regardless of the compression | settings made in the software | | I can't argue what you're saying, but I will point out that Irfanview has | what they call a JPG "lossless" crop and rotation, so they must be special | cases in some way. That's an interesting one. IV must be altering the data storage to do something like turn the orientation 90 degrees without changing the image data. But that's a special case. In general, any JPG save will lose data. |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 17:56:19 -0500, Mayayana wrote:
Whaddaya mean, resized? In the original post, I "resized" the files. In the baseline test, I did NOT resize the files. The reason I didn't resize the files in the baseline test is that I had *expected* the size from Paint.NET alone to be larger in all cases (it wasn't - but that was my test). In the original post, I do what I do all the time: 1. I start with a set of original JPEG files from the phone. 2. In one step, I use Irfanview to batch lossless rotate & reset EXIF orientation 3. In the second batch step, I use Irfanview to batch resize them to 800x600 pixels and to add a 50-pixel white canvas to the bottom. 4. Since all other known photo-editing programs, including Irfanview, stink for adding text, circling areas, and for adding curved and dotted arrows, I use Paint.NET for annotating the photographs (often they are screenshots). I find when I am done with Step 4. the file sizes are as much as twice as large as they were at the end of Step 3! So I run a Step 5, which is simply to batch resize the files in Irfanview again. I assumed these were all images of the same pixel dimensions, but resaved and with added text. (I'm not sure what you mean by adding a canvas. A monotone rectandgle for text?) This is Usenet so it's hard for me to describe things to you that I do all day, every day - so I'll show you what I mean by adding a canvas simply by referrring to these screenshots which I just did for a thread in the mobile phone group (where we are looking up how to test the signal strength of the local cellular tower): 01 Network Cell Info Lite, version 3.30: http://i.cubeupload.com/HoKTav.jpg http://wilysis.com/networkcellinfo https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...s.cellinfolite 02 Network Signal Info, version 3.63.01: http://i.cubeupload.com/2zK8Ys.jpg https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...android.telnet 03 GSM Signal Monitoring, version 4.02: http://i.cubeupload.com/V9O0Gg.jpg https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...almonitorin g 04 Netmonitor, version 1.2.15: http://i.cubeupload.com/TfDJaS.jpg https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ene.netmonitor 05 CellID Info:, version 1.2.2: http://i.cubeupload.com/X3gsfb.jpg https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ere.cellidinfo 06 RF Toolbox (Cell Monitor), version 2.26: http://i.cubeupload.com/y2YfEV.jpg https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...apps.rftoolbox 07 WiGle WiFi Wardriving (which also reports cellular towers): http://i.cubeupload.com/ZPva3O.jpg https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...e.wigleandroid 08. OpenSignal, version 5.10: http://i.cubeupload.com/BwfSFa.jpg https://opensignal.com/app/ https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...se3.opensignal etc. I didn't put any arrows on those pictures, but everything else I did, which was batch resize and then batch add a canvas, and then annotate individually using Paint.NET, and then batch resize again in Irfanview (to get the file size back to reasonable after saving with Paint.NET). 01 Network Cell Info Lite, version 3.30: http://i.cubeupload.com/HoKTav.jpg http://wilysis.com/networkcellinfo https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...s.cellinfolite 02 Network Signal Info, version 3.63.01: http://i.cubeupload.com/2zK8Ys.jpg https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...android.telnet 03 GSM Signal Monitoring, version 4.02: http://i.cubeupload.com/V9O0Gg.jpg https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...almonitorin g 04 Netmonitor, version 1.2.15: http://i.cubeupload.com/TfDJaS.jpg https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ene.netmonitor 05 CellID Info:, version 1.2.2: http://i.cubeupload.com/X3gsfb.jpg https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ere.cellidinfo 06 RF Toolbox (Cell Monitor), version 2.26: http://i.cubeupload.com/y2YfEV.jpg https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...apps.rftoolbox 07 WiGle WiFi Wardriving (which also reports cellular towers): http://i.cubeupload.com/ZPva3O.jpg https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...e.wigleandroid 08. OpenSignal, version 5.10: http://i.cubeupload.com/BwfSFa.jpg https://opensignal.com/app/ https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...se3.opensignal etc. |
Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?
In article , Tony Cooper
wrote: Sure. I give non-native speakers of English a free pass*, You should know better. Try responding to the OP in Dutch. and in fact, i do know better. as usual, you are butting in just to attack. the person in question is a well known troll who lives in the santa cruz mountains and is a native english speaker. he regularly spoofs his address, however, his style is unmistakable and easily outed. both savageduck and myself know him quite well from other newsgroups. Well, then, I apologize. I wasn't aware of that. ok Why, if you knew this, did you even bother to reply? many reasons, one being that he used incorrect terminology. |
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