A very good idea, Testy, but I'm not sure that MS would agree to that - =
a lot of cash can be generated by OEMs. MS, as any other, business has =
to make money... They are just about to allocate $10B dollars (US) to =
their share holders...

Will

"Testy" wrote in message =
.. .
Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have =
every
maker include a full CD.
=20
Testy
=20
"David Banks" wrote in message
...
Hi

Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was =
intended I
do
think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the =
Windows
product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM.

All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the =
basics of
the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have =
never yet
had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both =
Microsoft
and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how =
anybody
without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing'
atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.

There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will =
probably turn
out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as =
has been
done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib =
answers on
how
stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the =
response by
Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, =
you
know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, =
since
when
has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go =
elsewhere'
to
the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a =
bit
'high
minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that =
the
public have of the organisation.

I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out =
the
obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message =
'read
my
enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked'

A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and =
energy)
but
I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then.

Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program =
is not
included on the standard XP installation!!!!

I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my =
own
Customer
Services Handbook:-

'Dear Neil

I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
information you require. The Windows operating system is very =
complex and
navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be
frustrating
but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the =
answers
to
your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and =
hope that
we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very =
frustrating
problem to you.
Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any =
further
queries or problems.'

David


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in =
message
...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers =
no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use =
these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat" =
wrote in
message 48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the =
hell I
am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, =
worthless
products.


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in =
message
...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers =
no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use =
these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat" =
wrote in
message 48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the =
hell I
am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, =
worthless
products.


This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to =
provide
support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)

Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated
graphics
in
certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be =
saved
to
the selected location."

Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.

Are you Save As. Web page complete.
This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are =
saving to
that
contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have =
permissions
to
creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.

Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with =
all the
content embedded.

On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced
better
results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single =
file)

I have read the reason for this before, yet a
search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I
looked
for
the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of =
what
the
error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked =
to make
sure
I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be =
present
SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet
Explorer
6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such =
luck.
Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your =
knowledge
base.
That would be helpful.


The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
If you go to the Knowledgebase at
http://support.microsoft.com/
Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft =
Search
topics-
enter
"The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution =
containing
and Using ... The exact phrase entered

Produces one result
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=3D235589

Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you =
??


Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The =
"selecte(oops,
hang
on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE =
I WAS
IN
THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, =
Microsoft!)d
location"
has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save =
the
page,
no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your =
knowledge
base,
unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update =
that
was
released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my =
original
question
was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I =
mean,
I
know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being =
able to
save
the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But =
it
doesn't
work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, =
having
broken
it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had =
broken
it,
you were planning on doing anything about it.


Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article =
I
found.

And then I tried to ask you that.

I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm =
supposed to
get
to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative =
at
your
company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved
completely
impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine =
company.
But
because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. =
You
told
me to go to Dell. As it were.


The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it =
is up
to
Dell to provide you with support.

Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? =
No,
Dell
did
not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask =
Dell?
Dell
doesn't know what you've done.


Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to
technical
data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is =
an
OEM
machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are =
the
only
ones who can provide the required support.
Dell do and can know "what we have done"

Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like =
Linux.
Other
people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I
might've
liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or =
some such
thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the =
big
game
in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a =
deal
with
you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, =
but
something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. =
So if I
buy
a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I =
would
like
Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that =
way, I
cannot
get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.


You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing
systems
or
non at all.
You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs =
they
ship.
See comment above about OEM support.
If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements
(including)
choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.

I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So =
I
decided
to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I =
installed
it.
It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM =
version.
Meaning
it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. =
There
was
a
rebate. It was free, after the rebate.


Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product =3D support =
by OEM.

Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. =
At
this
point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any =
sense of
responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the =
world, you
great
jolly megalith, you.

I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at =
yours
every
damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or =
occasionally on
a
soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.



Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet =
Explorer"
(wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of
"Windows
XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, =
please)...you
don't
offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.

But...I bought it in this country.

Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once =
again.
Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." =
Okay.


Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you =
reside ?
Was
it a grey import ?
If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a =
problem
(please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state =
where
you
are.)

I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I =
went
through
every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on =
the
phone!
That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go =
to
Dell
for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.


Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their =
machines and
possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support =
personnel to
provide the necessary support on the product.
They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve =
and
also
to raise bugs etc should that be needed.

But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your
"communities"
for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page =
full
of
bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. =
Like
most
of
your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to =
submit a
question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you =
can
figure
out the answer to that.

Do you mean here
http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
or
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx

Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.

I mean, there was a little bit of information on your =
newsgroups.
Ninety
trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, =
script-ridden,
cookie-
filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir,
doesn't
get much more modern than a newsgroup.

What would you prefer?
This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community =
that
the
technical community operate in.

Of course, fewer and fewer people
are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use
newsgroups.
But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve
technical
help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, =
or for
a
computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of =
your
software.


We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs
provide
support for their OEM supplied products.

There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as =
well as
advice on setting up real newsreader programs.

Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP =
Support
Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an =
hour
before.
Elegant.


Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes =
and
then
may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support =
services.
The
web is not a linear construct people enter from various =
directions.

And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped!
"Coming
Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains =
how to
use
the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools =
to
protect
essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last =
week,
when
the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south =
and take
out
a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, =
irreplaceable
personal
information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I =
hadn't even
planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't =
need me
bothering you with my little problems.


If you have lost a significant amount of important data because =
you made
no
effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software =
(backup or
otherwise) - then this is not our fault.

(Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the =
drive
"is
not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay
because
I'm
smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like =
knowing I
can
make my computer's life a little easier.)


ok

Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, =
you
certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar
references
just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you =
won't
support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail =
account
just
so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at =
the
useless
support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport =
ID
which
is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. =
Thanks for
that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of =
"which
of
these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please =
tell us
all
your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one =
with
"Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use =
that to
screw
people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my =
name is
really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in =
the
whole
world. Let's hope, anyway.)

But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad =
you've
taken
such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have =
me
click
inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. =
You
really
do
care!


Yes - we do.

Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very =
soul.

Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?

Neil Obstat









=20
=20
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