On 2019-03-10 1:24 a.m., T wrote:
On 3/9/19 6:34 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote

| You could always use iptables.Â* That is what I use on
| mine and my customer's servers.Â* No GUI though
|

Â*Â*Â* That's a good one. You've managed to not fulfill
both of my minimum Linux requirements with one
program. But of course that's not hard. And
naturally, once I got a version of Linux with a well
designed firewall, where I didn't need console
windows, I'd want software selection and long
term support. The two requirements that still can't
be fulfilled -- firewall and fixing the rough edges --
are just my requirements for minimum functionality
before I'd spend my time actually trying out the
rest of it.

Â*Â* The lack of a usable Linux desktop just keeps going
on, year after year. The fan base keep saying, "It's
great! Try it again. You'll be impressed." But over 2
decades the fan base have never actually listened.
If someone says they don't want to be forced to
command line, the fan base says, "Oh? I like command
line." If someone says, "But there's no software.",
the fan base says, "What? There's Firefox and GIMP
and Libre Office. How much do you need?"

Â*Â* The people using Linux are not using a desktop to
do work. Most are using Linux as servers, for special
purpose scientific uses, as kiosk systems, or they're
geeks who use Linux as a combination hobby, clubhouse
and social circle.

Â*Â*Â* WINE is a good example in microcosm. It's been
going for over 20 years... 20 years!... Yet it's mainly
young geeks who want support for Windows games.
And the whole thing is backward. They're not providing
an API for Windows programmers. They're redirecting
every single function or combination of functions in
a Windows program to the Linux API. One program at
a time and one call at a time. They specifically don't
want to work with Windows programmers. So it's an
endless, one-fix-at-a-time approach. And typical of
Linux, there are virtually no docs. I once downloaded
the pitiful excuse for docs that WINE did have. It was
supposed to be compiled! I had to write a script to
turn the docs into readable files. You couldn't make up
this idiocy.

Â*Â*Â*Â* Why are they so resistant to docs? Because most
of the people writing the software and managing the
system are geeks with minimal English literacy. They
often say that themselves, explaining that they have
no docs because they hate writing docs. But they also
hate making things understandable. They want to be
able to talk in secret code with their friends, with no
one else understanding. In other words, they live in
a world of adolescent geek jargon, used to render their
social circle exclusive.

Â*Â*Â* Problems like that are deep and systemic. Someone
making a sensible, usable firewall would help, but it's
unlikely that anything can ever turn Linux into a user-
friendly tool for any but the most extreme geeks. Which
is a sad, lost opportunity. DotNet was adapted to Linux,
despite having very little relevance there. If Linux people
could just take the trouble to create
crossover docs and tools for Windows programmers,
so that most Windows software could be ported easily,
that would go a long way toward making Linux usable.
But the core problem is that Linux people actually don't
want it to be usable. That would spoil the fun and the
imagined cachet.

Â*Â*Â* On of the nicest things about Windows, to my mind, is
the lack of an emotional, biased fan base. Apple fans are
fiercely loyal suckers who turned Jobs into a guru. Jobs,
in turn, told them what they wanted to hear: That the
whole lemming school of overpaying Apple fans are people
who "think different". It was brilliant marketing. "You
want to do what I tell you to because you're an
independent thinker." Once they've swalllowed that kind
of pretzel logic they're hooked.

Â*Â*Â* Linux fans are equally fanatic in other ways. It's
religious. Windows isn't religion. That's a critical
difference that Linux and Apple fans often miss.
Windows just gets the job done. It's not especially
pretty or quirky. It just works. People don't use it
because they think Gates or Nadella are genius gurus.
They just use it because it works and it's a standard
they can depend on. We don't go into Apple or Linux
groups to tell people they should switch. We couldn't
care less. (And anyway, people in the Linux groups
are too uncivilzed to talk to.



Uhhh.Â* Uncivilized?Â* My kill file is twice the size on Windows
newsgroups than Linux.Â* There are ass holes everywhere, no respecter
of OS's.Â* If you really want uncivilized, check out the C groups.

Currently, I have a crew of folks heping me over on the
Fedora mailing list with a parallel port problem.Â* Not
a single ass hole in sight.Â* Ass holes do like to haunt
newsgroups because they can display anonymous behavior and
get away with it.Â* Dig a hole under someone else and you
feel taller.Â* That is why we have kill files.

Took me a bit to get my C kill file down, but now I only see
the mensches, as I only see mensches on this group.

And I had to add three ass holes into my Linux kill file today.

As far as firewalls go, firewalld is fine for desktops.Â* iptables
is the way to go for servers.Â* If you don't like the management
tools, learn them or go use some other OS.

And you can always try a firewall appliance.Â* They are all
Linux/iptables based anyway and have nicer interfaces.Â* Watchguard
makes excellent firewalls and has American tech support.

I had a YUGE laugh when I asked if there was a GUI for named
and got told "vi".Â* Yes, I know vi (text editor from hell,
but wonderful tool for coding.)

And as far as the desktop being unusable, you haven't looked
lately.Â* I am writing on one right now.Â* 10 times easier
to use than Windows 10 and twice as easy as Windows 7.

Remember that I support Linux, Windows, and Mac.Â* I see
a lot of desktops.Â* (I have yet to meet a Mac user that
know how to actually exit a program.Â* They just leave
everything running.)Â* gnome is weird, but I can still
use it directly.Â* Windows 7 was based on KDE and is
as easy to use as Windows 7

Here is the thing.Â* To use a different technology requires you
to actually learn the technology.Â* You want to use Windows 10,
you have to learn it.Â* If you want to use Linux, you have to
learn it.

One of my big hold ups to Libre Office at my customers is
those Office hold outs that refuse to use anything that
is not 100% identical to Office.Â* Learn?Â* My ass.

Go get yourself some Live USB's of KDE, gnome, Xfce, Mate and
you will see what I mean.Â* Beautiful desktops.

Disagreed. KDE is generally butt ugly. There is such a thing as too much
eye candy and KDE is there. MATE and XFCE don't look special but I admit
that I like the way Gnome looks and acts. I guess that's the strength of
Linux though: there's a desktop for everyone.

Linux's only draw back now is the lack of application support.

A lot of the older games will play in Linux through SteamPlay (as long
as it was purchased in Steam) but I notice that applications which
should run easily through Wine just won't. There's no excuse, for
instance, for WordPerfect Office X9 not to work through Wine.

And WINE almost works most of the time.Â* This is Code Weavers
doing.Â* You want it fixed and you have to put them on your parole.
You are a hostage. Fortunately the Wine Staging guys are end running
Code Weavers.Â* The patches and fixes keep rolling in -- finally!

Fedora uses Wine Staging.Â* I run Lotus Smart Suite under Wine.
A few glitches in the rendering, but entirely usable.Â* Wine
Staging fixed all the major problems for me.

Old software always seems to work well in Wine.


--
- "I am a Linux advocate. I am one with Linux, and Linux will guide me."
- "The Linux?"
- "The Linux is what gives an advocate his beard and weight issues."
- "It's an energy field created by all living things."
- "It surrounds us and penetrates us without consent."
- "Remember, an advocate can feel the Linux flowing through him."