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"Alias" wrote in message
...
Gregg Hill wrote:
"Alias" wrote in message
...
Gregg Hill wrote:
Copyright violation in the US is a federal offense
I don't live in the US.


I know you don't, but you said it is only a civil offense in the US. I
pointed out that it is a federal offense. I don't speak lawyerese. To me,
theft is still theft, whether punishable under civil or criminal law, or
no law at all.

What you call theft others call fair use. It's a subjective thing and may
have something to do with your upbringing. I am against theft and all my
software licenses are paid for but the prospect of buying one license and
being able to install it on the three computers I own is appealing.




Using the software for which you have not paid is copyright violation .
A civil offense.


Whether a civil offense or criminal offense, theft is theft. It is not
only an issue of law, it is an issue of morals. Taking something that
does not belong to you is immoral.

But MS defines if you're taking something or not, not you or any higher
moral authority.


And if I walked into your house and took your TV, then YOU would be defining
if it is stolen, which puts you in the exact same boat as Microsoft.
Microsoft paid people to develop the software, then they wrote a license
agreement, then they sold the license to use the product. They made it, they
have the right to determine the licensing of it. They have the right to
determine its legal use. It is beyond me how you can rationalize using it
without buying it, according to the rules set forth by whomever developed
the product.


If you could legally install XP or Vista on all your home computers and
only have to buy one license, you would do it and not consider it theft.


You are correct. However, no matter in what country I reside, if I did NOT
pay for the product, which users of the leaked keys have failed to do, then
it would still be theft, whether or not the law calls it as such. Again, you
have no right to use something for which no one has paid, unless the
manufacturer has given you a free copy. If the EULA says I can install it on
ONE computer, and my country's law says otherwise, I consider it theft to
install on more than one computer, because the manufacturer of the software
wrote the license terms, not your country of residence.









If you did not pay for it, and you are using a copy of someone else's
software, whether illegal civilly or criminally, it is still illegal,
and it is still theft.
No, it's a civil offense. Interesting how MS' EULA gives them the right
to change the rules at any time but if you go back on your agreement,
you think they should be locked up and have their lives ruined.

If there is no profit motive, where I live, it is not a crime or a civil
offense.


But there IS a profit motive. By not paying for it, you haved PROFITED!!!
directly by saving the amount of money you SHOULD have paid for that
product, according to the EULA to which you technically agreed by your
use of the software.

No, that's MS' profit motive, not allowing someone to install something
they bought on as many computers they want to in the privacy of their
home.


It is YOUR profit motive as well. Of course it is Microsoft's profit motive,
and the motive of every person on this planet who works for a living. You
put in your hours at work, and gee whiz, you expect to get PAID. What a
concept. You seem to think it is unfair that Micorosft also gets paid for
their work. The amount of money they get is irrelevant.

If it had nothing to do with the software pirate's own profit, then there is
NO reason for anyone, regardless of country of residence, NOT to pay for it.
The ONLY reason that people do not pay for it is so that they can PROFIT by
not spending the money. Read the EULA; you did not buy the product, you
bought the right to use it, per the terms of the license agreement. If you
do not agree with those terms, then simply DO NOT use the product. There is
no moral justification for your viewpoint. If you cannot meet the
manufacturer's requirements to pay for each license, then don't use it.

Why limit your view to the privacy of your own home? Why not buy one package
and install it on all 10,000 computers in your business? Whether you steal
one apple or the whole damn orchard, you are still stealing. Theft is theft,
regardless of the amount which was taken or the purpose for which it was
taken.







I define "theft" as taking something that does not belong to you and
which you have no right to use.
Who decides what belongs to whom and who has the right to use it, you?



No, not me. In this case, Microsoft's EULA, which you technically agree
to by your use of the software, defines who has the right to use it.

Thanks for confirming my point. MS is the law, eh? Interesting concept.


I did not confirm your point. MS is not the law. MS is the manufacturer of
the product that **you agreed to use** under their license conditions. MS
absolutely has the right to determine who gets to use the product...those
who pay for it. **How** you use it is up to you. The fact that you **do**
use it requires license compliance.




On a broader scale, if I walked into your house and took your TV, would
that be theft?

If you want to copy my TV and leave me the original, be my guest.

According to your standards, it seems it would only be theft if you could
prove that you owned it. What if you could not find your receipt? I guess
you would be OK with me taking it. Cool! What's your address?

Keep trying, maybe you'll come up with a comparable analogy.


OK, if you provide a service that costs you money, say you are a plumber or
a programmer, do you do 50% of your work for free? Why not? You are asking
Microsoft to do so. Turn your little table around and put yourself in the
place of the person not receiving compensation for each piece of his work.

More below.






That transcends your requirement for it to be a criminal act.
No, that is your vague opinion of what theft is.


My opinion was not vague. If it does not belong to you, or you have no
right to use it, and you take it, it is theft. If I lived in a country
that had no laws of any kind, but I took another man's car that he had
purchased, it would still be theft. It is a moral issue as well as an
issue of law. Apparently, you lack the moral fortitude to understand that
concept. Not much I can do about that.

I buy XP. It belongs to me. The country I live in says I can do what I
want to with it in the privacy of my home and you call it theft.



First of all, this thread is discussing illegally leaked volume license
keys, but the principal applies to you as well. Unless your XP EULA is
written differently than the one in the US, you buy a **license to use** the
XP code, **subject to the conditions of the license.** You did **not** buy
the product code itself.

If the manufacturer requires you to buy a license for each installation of
the XP code, and your country flagrantly says "who gives a crap" about the
manufacturer, you are still stealing. As I mentioned before, something does
not have to be illegal for it to be wrong morally.









In your country, is the Microsoft EULA written to allow use of someone
else's Volume License Key to run the Microsoft software? If not, then
it is still theft.
Not if there's no profit motive. If you copy XP and sell the copy,
you're in trouble. If you copy it and put it on another computer or give
it to a friend, you aren't. It will be really interesting to read the
new EULA now that this is law here. I'll be sure and post it ;-)


Again, there IS a profit motive. Each person who does not pay for the
copy he/she uses has PROFITED directly by not having to fork out the few
bucks for the software. That is an economic profit.

The only profit motive you're talking about comes from MS.



Nope, YOUR profit motive is still there. If XP costs $200 for each copy, and
you buy one license which the EULA allows you to use on one computer, but
you install it on four computers, you just PROFITED buy not spending the
additional $600.






I would prefer to be on high moral ground than to be an underground rat
that steals from people.

Gregg
There's no reason to refer to me as an "underground rat" or "an
unscrupulous person". Can you please stick to the issues and avoid
personal attacks?


OK, I'll take back the "rat" comment, but I stand by the "unscrupulous
person" tag, for the reasons mentioned above. I pity your neighbors when
they buy something nice and you take it. What? You would never do that?
Sure you would...you say it's OK to do it with software, why not your
neighbor's possessions?

Gregg

Casual copying is not the same as stealing a TV set. I am against
stealing. I just disagree with you regarding casual copying of software
with no profit motive (reselling the software, as whether one would buy it
or not if one had to pay is not established and speculation).

Alias

Nope, YOUR profit motive is still there. Again, if XP costs $200 for each
copy, and you buy one license which the EULA allows you to use on one
computer, but you install it on four computers, you just PROFITED buy not
spending the additional $600. That is YOUR profit motive, not Microsoft's.

Let's take that TV and make it 100 of them, sitting in your local
electronics store. It is the store's profit motive to sell those TVs at a
higher price than it cost to purchase them so that they can pay their
employees and have some left over for fun or philanthropy. It is Microsoft's
profit motive to sell the license for XP at a price higher than what it cost
to have it developed. That store paid to get those TVs in stock. Microsoft
paid to get the software developed. The store sells ten TVs. Microsoft sells
one license to use the XP code. The store gets robbed and thieves take the
other 90. Microsoft gets robbed when someone releases a key to load the
software. The store makes no further profit, and they are out the cost of
buying those TVs. The store closes, and its employees now go hungry.
Microsoft makes no further profit on all uses of the software via the
illegal key. Sure, MS can absorb it, but some companies cannot. That is not
the point. The point is that the profit motive of the store was rightfully
to make money, but the thieves' profit motive was not to spend any money,
but to still enjoy the benefit of the product. That is precisely what you
and the key leaker/poster are promoting.

Yes, that is an extreme example, but it seems you just don't grasp the
concept of theft.







Alias



"Alias" wrote in message
...
Gregg Hill wrote:
Software piracy is no different than someone who walks into your
house and steals your computer, TV, jewels, etc. It is THEFT. I'll
bet you would be upset if someone stole YOUR belongings, but you seem
to think it is OK to do just because Bill has more money than you do.
Um, in the country where I live, sharing software is called "fair use"
and is not illegal at all as long as there is no financial gain.



There IS financial gain on your part by you not spending the money on each
license.

I have no more time to spend trying to convince unscrupulous people that
taking something that is not rightfully yours is theft. If you don't get it
by now, there is no way any more typing on my part is going to convince you.
I am just thankful that I was raised by honest people 40 years older than I
am and who had strong moral values.

Gregg







Oops.
In the USA, if you copy XP that you paid for, it is NOT theft but
copyright violation, a civil, not criminal, offense.

Don't be such an unscrupulous person.

Gregg
Get off your high moral horse and do some research before you stick
your hoof in your mouth again.

Alias
"Alias" wrote in message
...
Bruce Chambers wrote:
wrote:
These keys have been reported few times in June, but are still
valid up
to this moment !!

Well, we'll see. Microsoft can't do much about the contents of
Chinese
web sites, but they can, if they so desire, disable those keys.
They don't desire to do that. They are still saturating the Chinese
market.

In the meantime, let's hope that Microsoft at least prosecutes you
for
aiding and abetting in software piracy.
That'll be the day! MS take someone to court to uphold their scammy
EULA? Give me a break.

Alias