"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...
In message , Java Jive
writes:
On 13/07/2018 18:26, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader of
the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the blooming part
of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in more northern
towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a definite two
syllables.

No, not at all. I was 'fraightfully' well bought up in the south of
England, and to me 'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two
syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in
between, but I'd say more one than two.

I think JJ might be referring to inner-London accents (formerly Cockney, now
Estuary English), as opposed to all south-of-England accents.

Delighted to hear it. (And I'd agree about flour.) So the border is
obviously very complex. Interesting to hear that it exists in the USA too.
I was going to say maybe it's a class (or clarse, as some pronounce that
word; I pronounce it to rhyme with lass) thing, but you say you were, as
you put it, "fraightfully" well brought up and in the south, yet you
pronounce as I do. Maybe it's (or started as) "affected" class.

I think at least the areas (and perhaps classes?) where "flower" is a term
of endearment - "that's all right, flower" - always pronounce it as two
syllables.

Yes I always try to make a distinction between near-homonyms like
flower/flour, to avoid confusion.

My mum, who is from the north side of Leeds (think of an Alan Bennett
accent!) leaned some strange pronunciations, probably from her
social-climbing father - for example, she pronounces invalid (disabled
person, as opposed to not-valid) as invaleed with a long I sound.

At my infant/junior school in the same part of Leeds, which was where I grew
up as well, the headmistress tried to instil in us "proper" pronunciation,
and insisted on "syoot" for suit, "lunch-ee-on" instead of "lunch'n" or
(heaven forbid) "lunch", and "hwite" (white) with a very definite H sound at
the beginning. I think she was fighting a losing battle because most of us
had normal middle-class-Leeds accents without any of her pretentious
pronunciation. I remember one of my teachers, who was probably more a rebel
than the others, always referred to the head as Mrs HHHHHHHHHHwhite with a
very exaggerated, heavily aspirated H; even at at six I realised that she
was taking the ****. :-)

There is nothing funnier than a person who is trying (and failing
spectacularly) to put on a more refayned accent. My other grandpa was a
headmaster (with a short A, not headmarster) and spoke with an educated but
unashamed West Riding (of Yorkshire) accent, and he wouldn't change it.
Except in one situation, he had to... In the 1950s he was asked to give some
talks on the Home Service "Children's Hour" radio programme about his pet
subject: steam railways. He was told to tone down his native accent and was
even given some elocution lessons. Caught between the devil and the deep
blue sea (he wouldn't willing change his accent but realised that he might
otherwise lose the chance to appear on The Wireless) he treated the lessons
with the contempt that they deserved, and hammed it up and over-acted
terribly. How do I know? Because they gave him a recording, on a
shellac-on-aluminium 78 rpm record, of one of his talks. The timbre of his
voice is recognisable, as is the occasional moment when his real accent
shows through, but otherwise he sounds like Bob Danvers-Walker (who voiced a
lot of the post-war newsreels) or Harry Enfield's character Mr
Chomondley-Warner. At one point in his talk he says "and by now the smoke is
coming out of the chimney like a bullet from a gun" - except he pronounces
it "the smaoke is caming aout of the chimney laike a ballit fram a gan". I
remember he had me in stitches when he first played me the recording when I
was a child. He described the elocution teacher as "a reet wazzock" - which
is not a compliment :-)