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  #16  
Old November 16th 18, 01:08 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
default[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 201
Default Pantograph.

On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 20:37:37 -0800, Gene Wirchenko
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:21:56 -0500, default
wrote:

[snip]

That's what I was thinking. Anyone who's done some woodworking and
such has already learned to transfer shapes with just a pencil and
piece of wood.

We got along very well without computers for many years, yet now some
folks can't leave the house without checking the weather, roads, etc.,
when just a few years ago they'd never give it a thought.


How could you forget checking E-mail and social media?

Obviously, you are not with it, and neither am I. Whatever this
"it" is, I think it has too much company. BEG

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko


I'm not suggesting it shouldn't be used, just that it shouldn't rule
how you do things.

I love being able to access electronic datasheets without hunting
through my library of books, chatting with people I don't know, and
using a computer to draw schematics etc.. It is a wonderful resource
and I hope it stays that way; or I hope capitalism doesn't wreck it.
Ads
  #17  
Old November 16th 18, 03:13 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Jonathan N. Little[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,133
Default Pantograph.

Peter Jason wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:19:27 -0500, Paul


snip
I want to see what this set of stairs is "bridging".


https://postimg.cc/R6mtHjht

Threshold is the work I think you mean.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
  #18  
Old November 16th 18, 03:49 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mr. Man-wai Chang
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,941
Default Pantograph. -- The dark magic?

On 11/15/2018 11:46 AM, Peter Jason wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph
I have to engineer a wooden step to adapt
differing heights in two floors. This has to fit
within the cut walls and meet up with skirting
boards etc. Is there an app to trace around
the relevant edges and so make a pattern on a
piece of timber for subsequent fret-sawing?
It would be like a mouse, I suppose.


Do you are into dark magic? Talk to Agent Fox Mulder!

--
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/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty!
/( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you!
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  #19  
Old November 16th 18, 11:12 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Peter Jason
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,310
Default Pantograph.

On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 23:40:30 -0500, Paul
wrote:

Peter Jason wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:19:27 -0500, Paul
wrote:

Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-11-15 05:50, Paul wrote:
Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:46:49 +1100, Peter Jason wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph
I have to engineer a wooden step to adapt
differing heights in two floors. This has to fit
within the cut walls and meet up with skirting
boards etc. Is there an app to trace around
the relevant edges and so make a pattern on a
piece of timber for subsequent fret-sawing? It would be like a
mouse, I suppose.
THis is the kind of thing that boatbuilders have been doing for
millenia. Its not essentially a computer problem.
You can laser scan things if you really need
dimensions. But it's kinda overkill.

Paul
A piece of boxboard and a pencil also works. Cut an oversize piece,
trace, then cut near the traced line, try again, and cut again. May have
to do that several times, but it will improve your manual dexterity, bonus!

:-)

Best,

I hope we get to see a picture of this project when it's finished.

I want to see what this set of stairs is "bridging".

Paul


https://postimg.cc/R6mtHjht
It's not a pretty sight. After engineering a door
in the brick wall to make the top floor
contiguous, after straining my back and congesting
my lungs, after cleaning up the flour-fine brick
dust and arranging removal of all copious debris,
I'm assailed with the problem of making a single
(broad) step (of pine) down to the back of the
house. I have made the step but have to saw it
into shape. Perhaps multi-photos merged into
PShop (panorama) might do it?


https://www.pinterest.ca/kermansfloo...between-rooms/

Is the material in the transition/step area sound ?


Yes, it's the double-brick wall of the lower
storey.

Does it take a load now, without deflecting ?


I had a "structural engineer" in to assess the
whole feasibility, and he designed the steel
lintels that *I* had to install. A dirty messy
job!

You don't want to put something on top of that which
is only going to creak every time someone steps on it.
You wouldn't want to fasten something with an
adhesive, then discover after it's set, that
it creaks like a *******.


I will set pins (dynabolts) in the exposed bricks
to set the step level; thereafter I'll stuff the
space underneath with rubble & mortar.

If the material was (by some miracle) sound, then
you could bring the surface up plumb by pouring
a material on top of that, which sets. Such materials
are sometimes used for flooring jobs (tile underlay),
to cover imperfections in the underlying surface, and give
a good surface to lay the flooring on. Your working
surface right now, doesn't look level enough for
that stuff (you'd need too thick of a layer).

The wood on the left side, looks too high for
your transition piece to be fitted. Is it safe to
remove that wood ? What's underneath it ? 2x4s
verticals ? That wood looks kinds small to be
a sill plate.

*******

Judging by the level of what I see at the moment,
it looks like you're about to do this. Put a
"tripping bar" in the doorway.

Floor in Floor in
bottom of top of picture
picture which is lower

+--------+ Side profile view
--------+ Pine |
|
+---------

The level of materials on the left side,
looks too high to level it out, without the
board sitting high, and tripping people on
the way through the doorway.

Looking at the picture ("looking down at my toes"),
I think I'm seeing...

(Lower carpeted floor) View looking down

- - - ---------------------- - - - \
Brick or solid blocks \
of some sort \__ Pine transition
- - - ---------------------- - - - / board goes on
Wooden sill plate? / top of this mess
- - - ---------------------- - - - /

(Higher carpeted floor)

Can you remove a sill plate ? There'd be nothing
underneath it ? Maybe that's just a framing piece
that could be removed, and there is another board
under that ?


I have to get the step at least part of the way
under the wall cuts to allow the future door frame
to sit on, before fixing this into position.

If the pine board rests on those two dissimilar
materials, the wood part underneath could deflect,
while the brick or block section remain absolutely rigid.

Paul


Thank you, I'm still into the trial & terror mode.
  #20  
Old November 16th 18, 11:17 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Peter Jason
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,310
Default Pantograph.

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 10:49:52 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 08:06:34 +1100, Peter Jason wrote:

On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:19:27 -0500, Paul
wrote:

Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-11-15 05:50, Paul wrote:
Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:46:49 +1100, Peter Jason wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph
I have to engineer a wooden step to adapt
differing heights in two floors. This has to fit
within the cut walls and meet up with skirting
boards etc. Is there an app to trace around
the relevant edges and so make a pattern on a
piece of timber for subsequent fret-sawing? It would be like a
mouse, I suppose.

THis is the kind of thing that boatbuilders have been doing for
millenia. Its not essentially a computer problem.

You can laser scan things if you really need
dimensions. But it's kinda overkill.

Paul

A piece of boxboard and a pencil also works. Cut an oversize piece,
trace, then cut near the traced line, try again, and cut again. May have
to do that several times, but it will improve your manual dexterity, bonus!

:-)

Best,


I hope we get to see a picture of this project when it's finished.

I want to see what this set of stairs is "bridging".

Paul


https://postimg.cc/R6mtHjht
It's not a pretty sight. After engineering a door
in the brick wall to make the top floor
contiguous, after straining my back and congesting
my lungs, after cleaning up the flour-fine brick
dust and arranging removal of all copious debris,
I'm assailed with the problem of making a single
(broad) step (of pine) down to the back of the
house. I have made the step but have to saw it
into shape. Perhaps multi-photos merged into
PShop (panorama) might do it?


Now I have seen the photograph: I think you should Google 'spiling
board'. No, that is not a spelling error. The word is 'spiling'.


Thanks, I checked out "spiling" and this seems
most applicable to clinker boats. The point of
making a virtual ''cast'' of the job and then
thansferring this to the new stock might be the
same in my case that is to cut a profile in
cardboard in one part, then another, and then yet
another and then merging these parts on to the
final timber for subsequent fret-sawing.
  #21  
Old November 16th 18, 11:34 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Pantograph.

Peter Jason wrote:


Thank you, I'm still into the trial & terror mode.


I've been trying searches on and off, to find
a 3D contour tool, to extract data.

It appears Microsoft had something called Photosynth,
but it was shut down and is no longer offered.

So I tried plugging in "alternativeto photosynth"
in a search, and the list is here. There's one
commercial one that looks interesting.

https://alternativeto.net/software/photosynth/

https://alternativeto.net/software/3df-zephyr-pro/

https://www.3dflow.net/3df-zephyr-pr...s-from-photos/

"3DF Zephyr Free
A new, completely free, edition is now available for
download! Perfect for learning or as a viewer, is
also a great way to share your .ZEP files with
your customers. 3DF Zephyr Free can open .ZEP files
generated with any 3DF Zephyr version."

The idea is, you take multiple digital photographs, and
the tool reconstructs the photographs and
extracts a point cloud from the data. You will
likely still need some other tool, to massage
the data so someone with a CNC machine can help
you out and mill a board to match. The point cloud
needs to be inverted so the board will have a
shape to match that uneven surface.

Apparently the Microsoft tool did something similar.
Extract 3D from a series of arbitrary photos shot
from various angles.

At one time, some Intel RealSense web page was
claiming to do this kind of stuff too. Except
it doesn't need to use tricks, since it has
an infrared scanner for determining depth. But any
articles I see for RealSense these days, the
demo is always small objects being rotated on
a Lazy Susan turntable while you take pictures.
And that's no good for a door sill.

So anyway, the tech is supposed to exist to do
what you want. You just have to find a company
that hasn't gone out of business, to get it.

Paul
  #22  
Old November 17th 18, 12:46 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 911
Default Pantograph.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:17:20 +1100, Peter Jason wrote:

--- snip ---

Now I have seen the photograph: I think you should Google 'spiling
board'. No, that is not a spelling error. The word is 'spiling'.


Thanks, I checked out "spiling" and this seems
most applicable to clinker boats. The point of
making a virtual ''cast'' of the job and then
thansferring this to the new stock might be the
same in my case that is to cut a profile in
cardboard in one part, then another, and then yet
another and then merging these parts on to the
final timber for subsequent fret-sawing.


Spiling is certainly used in the construction of clinker boats but it
has a much wider application than that. I recently used it to make a
shelf in the cabinet under a laundry tub. It wa a very odd shape and
also had to clear the plumbing under the tub.

The purpose of spiling is to make a template of the shape of the
object to be fitted into place. The idea is that you take a plain
surface, usually a scrap of wood, and mark on to it key points which
can be used to define the shape of the object against which the
finished product has to fit. As shown in most videos this is commonly
done by spanning with a compass.

In your case you want to do this twice: once for each side of the
doorway. Once your two template ends have been determined the next
thing is to fix them to something at the right distance apart. The way
I would do this is as follows:

1. Cut the template ends to shape with a jigsaw (or whatever).

2. Confirm that they are correct by holding them up against the
section of wall to which they correspond.

3. Get a piece of wood which almost spans the doorway and after
(somehow) holding the two template ends in place glue the two
template ends and the piece of wood together. Once the glue
hardens you will have complete template for the shape of the
finished door step.

4. Transcribe the shape of the template to the wood from which you
intend to make the doorstep. If all has gone well you will have
step with wiggly ends just the right shape for everything to drop
into place.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #23  
Old November 17th 18, 06:27 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Pantograph.

Paul wrote:
Peter Jason wrote:


Thank you, I'm still into the trial & terror mode.


I've been trying searches on and off, to find
a 3D contour tool, to extract data.

It appears Microsoft had something called Photosynth,
but it was shut down and is no longer offered.

So I tried plugging in "alternativeto photosynth"
in a search, and the list is here. There's one
commercial one that looks interesting.

https://alternativeto.net/software/photosynth/

https://alternativeto.net/software/3df-zephyr-pro/

https://www.3dflow.net/3df-zephyr-pr...s-from-photos/

"3DF Zephyr Free
A new, completely free, edition is now available for
download! Perfect for learning or as a viewer, is
also a great way to share your .ZEP files with
your customers. 3DF Zephyr Free can open .ZEP files
generated with any 3DF Zephyr version."

The idea is, you take multiple digital photographs, and
the tool reconstructs the photographs and
extracts a point cloud from the data. You will
likely still need some other tool, to massage
the data so someone with a CNC machine can help
you out and mill a board to match. The point cloud
needs to be inverted so the board will have a
shape to match that uneven surface.

Apparently the Microsoft tool did something similar.
Extract 3D from a series of arbitrary photos shot
from various angles.

At one time, some Intel RealSense web page was
claiming to do this kind of stuff too. Except
it doesn't need to use tricks, since it has
an infrared scanner for determining depth. But any
articles I see for RealSense these days, the
demo is always small objects being rotated on
a Lazy Susan turntable while you take pictures.
And that's no good for a door sill.

So anyway, the tech is supposed to exist to do
what you want. You just have to find a company
that hasn't gone out of business, to get it.

Paul


I tried out that software, on a "stick of wood"
I wanted to get a profile of. And it more or less
bombed out. I think my lighting needs work, for
the camera photos. I placed the stick of wood on
a white surface (a piece of plexi I bought a
couple years ago, the translucent kind). But even
without distractions, it didn't work.

When I tried the "sample images" for 3df zephyr pro
(a separate 500MB download), that did result in output.

This article covers the topic in some detail, the
need for lighting, the need for "targets with contrast".
I could also find some forum posts where people tried
to scan white bleached bones (with the intent of printing
a similar bone), and the tool failing to produce an
output.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017...y-machine-yet/

Photogrammetry is pretty sensitive to input provided,
even if the tools pretend they're "fully automated".
Using the mask tool didn't solve any problems
at all.

The obj file I got from the successful run, was too
large to fit into an online website. They had limited
upload size and the file was too big for that.

Paul
  #24  
Old November 19th 18, 05:01 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Peter Jason
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,310
Default Pantograph.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:46:04 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:17:20 +1100, Peter Jason wrote:

--- snip ---

Now I have seen the photograph: I think you should Google 'spiling
board'. No, that is not a spelling error. The word is 'spiling'.


Thanks, I checked out "spiling" and this seems
most applicable to clinker boats. The point of
making a virtual ''cast'' of the job and then
thansferring this to the new stock might be the
same in my case that is to cut a profile in
cardboard in one part, then another, and then yet
another and then merging these parts on to the
final timber for subsequent fret-sawing.


Spiling is certainly used in the construction of clinker boats but it
has a much wider application than that. I recently used it to make a
shelf in the cabinet under a laundry tub. It wa a very odd shape and
also had to clear the plumbing under the tub.

The purpose of spiling is to make a template of the shape of the
object to be fitted into place. The idea is that you take a plain
surface, usually a scrap of wood, and mark on to it key points which
can be used to define the shape of the object against which the
finished product has to fit. As shown in most videos this is commonly
done by spanning with a compass.

In your case you want to do this twice: once for each side of the
doorway. Once your two template ends have been determined the next
thing is to fix them to something at the right distance apart. The way
I would do this is as follows:

1. Cut the template ends to shape with a jigsaw (or whatever).

2. Confirm that they are correct by holding them up against the
section of wall to which they correspond.

3. Get a piece of wood which almost spans the doorway and after
(somehow) holding the two template ends in place glue the two
template ends and the piece of wood together. Once the glue
hardens you will have complete template for the shape of the
finished door step.

4. Transcribe the shape of the template to the wood from which you
intend to make the doorstep. If all has gone well you will have
step with wiggly ends just the right shape for everything to drop
into place.


Yes, thanks. I've laid my hands on some thin
corrugated board and will check this out.
  #25  
Old November 19th 18, 05:11 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Peter Jason
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,310
Default Pantograph.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:27:30 -0500, Paul
wrote:

Paul wrote:
Peter Jason wrote:


Thank you, I'm still into the trial & terror mode.


I've been trying searches on and off, to find
a 3D contour tool, to extract data.

It appears Microsoft had something called Photosynth,
but it was shut down and is no longer offered.

So I tried plugging in "alternativeto photosynth"
in a search, and the list is here. There's one
commercial one that looks interesting.

https://alternativeto.net/software/photosynth/

https://alternativeto.net/software/3df-zephyr-pro/

https://www.3dflow.net/3df-zephyr-pr...s-from-photos/

"3DF Zephyr Free
A new, completely free, edition is now available for
download! Perfect for learning or as a viewer, is
also a great way to share your .ZEP files with
your customers. 3DF Zephyr Free can open .ZEP files
generated with any 3DF Zephyr version."

The idea is, you take multiple digital photographs, and
the tool reconstructs the photographs and
extracts a point cloud from the data. You will
likely still need some other tool, to massage
the data so someone with a CNC machine can help
you out and mill a board to match. The point cloud
needs to be inverted so the board will have a
shape to match that uneven surface.

Apparently the Microsoft tool did something similar.
Extract 3D from a series of arbitrary photos shot
from various angles.

At one time, some Intel RealSense web page was
claiming to do this kind of stuff too. Except
it doesn't need to use tricks, since it has
an infrared scanner for determining depth. But any
articles I see for RealSense these days, the
demo is always small objects being rotated on
a Lazy Susan turntable while you take pictures.
And that's no good for a door sill.

So anyway, the tech is supposed to exist to do
what you want. You just have to find a company
that hasn't gone out of business, to get it.

Paul


I tried out that software, on a "stick of wood"
I wanted to get a profile of. And it more or less
bombed out. I think my lighting needs work, for
the camera photos. I placed the stick of wood on
a white surface (a piece of plexi I bought a
couple years ago, the translucent kind). But even
without distractions, it didn't work.

When I tried the "sample images" for 3df zephyr pro
(a separate 500MB download), that did result in output.

This article covers the topic in some detail, the
need for lighting, the need for "targets with contrast".
I could also find some forum posts where people tried
to scan white bleached bones (with the intent of printing
a similar bone), and the tool failing to produce an
output.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017...y-machine-yet/

Photogrammetry is pretty sensitive to input provided,
even if the tools pretend they're "fully automated".
Using the mask tool didn't solve any problems
at all.

The obj file I got from the successful run, was too
large to fit into an online website. They had limited
upload size and the file was too big for that.

Paul


Yes, like the old Camera Obscura
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camera_obscura
that DaVinci, Michaelangelo, Carravaggio, Rubens,
Goya, etc. etc. etc. used to compose their
paintings. A great help with perspective.

Also, clever archaeologists of old would use a
"Squeeze"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeeze_paper
consisting of a "Papier-mch" mix applied to the
substrate and then detached therefrom when dry to
give an accurate outline of the surface.

But I'll try the cutout method first.

  #26  
Old November 20th 18, 01:15 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Adrian Caspersz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Pantograph.

On 15/11/18 03:46, Peter Jason wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph
I have to engineer a wooden step to adapt
differing heights in two floors. This has to fit
within the cut walls and meet up with skirting
boards etc. Is there an app to trace around
the relevant edges and so make a pattern on a
piece of timber for subsequent fret-sawing?
It would be like a mouse, I suppose.


Use 'Measure' on an iPhone. Borrow one if need be.

--
Adrian C
 




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