New computer but win 7 or 8

On 4/11/2013 4:02 PM, mick wrote:
I have a friend who is asking me to help him choose a new desktop
computer. He has an very old machine running win xp, he does not do
much other than email, internet, a bit of video editing and photograph
editing. He is also not that computer literate, I have to walk him
through most basic things much of the time.

Choosing a computer to suit his needs is not much trouble but I am stuck
on whether to advise win7 or win8. I know a lot about win7 and can help
him to easily get to grips with understanding it, but if I go for win8 I
know it will be more difficult, as I do not have that here at home to
play with when he asks the inevitable help questions over the phone.

The new computer will be between 4 and 8gb, no gaming, no touch screen.
I don't want to appear selfish from my point of view and help him spend
his money by buying an already oldish win7 when the newer win8 is widely
advertised as the next best thing since sliced bread if you see what I
mean.

As to myself, I have three machines here with win7 and cannot ever see
me upgrading to win8 as all the reports I have read so far just don't
convince me it is better. I had vista on a couple of machines awhile
back and although it worked well(for me), win 7 just blew it out of the
water and that is what I will be sticking with for quite a long time.

Oh, what to do :-?

Well you have had some very nice and well thought out responses. I was too
lazy.

What are you going to recommend??

Decisions, decisions, god knows LOL
What is apparent from much of the good advice posted here is for me to
stand back a little and let my friend decide what he thinks he will
like and then for me to help after he has made his choice.
Maybe I will have to learn win8 pretty damn quick. LOL
What makes things a little harder with my friend is that he is French,
talks English OK but doesn't always understand it :-)

--
mick

"ray carter" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:02:28 +0100, mick wrote:

I have a friend who is asking me to help him choose a new desktop
computer. He has an very old machine running win xp, he does not do
much other than email, internet, a bit of video editing and photograph
editing. He is also not that computer literate, I have to walk him
through most basic things much of the time.

Choosing a computer to suit his needs is not much trouble but I am stuck
on whether to advise win7 or win8. I know a lot about win7 and can help
him to easily get to grips with understanding it, but if I go for win8 I
know it will be more difficult, as I do not have that here at home to
play with when he asks the inevitable help questions over the phone.



If you're going to have to walk him through things, it would make sense
to advise him to get what you are most comfortable with.

Only if you want a new life partner LOL :-) I agree with both Ken's
assessments; sit him down in front of each and see what he's most comfortable
with. Just don't say things like "I'm not sure I know how to do that",
"That's a really ugly desktop", etc. Let him make up his own mind without
your (possibly) prejudicial influence. He'll never learn to walk if you carry
him all the time. Just my 2¢ worth . . .

You hit the nail on the head there. :-)

--
mick

On 4/12/13 4:44 AM, mick wrote:
On 4/11/13 5:02 PM, mick wrote:

snip

Thanks Ken for taking the time to write so much, a lot of good
information to digest.

FWIW, much of my suggestions are a compilation of things that have
happened to me in trying to help others. Usually as a result of think I
knew what was best, what I knew how to do, etc. rather than listening to
the other person, and then helping them get what they wanted. Not what
I wanted.

Good luck.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.3
Firefox 20.0
Thunderbird 17.0.5
LibreOffice 4.0.1.2

Hi, Mike.

Win+Break

That is, hold down the Windows logo key while you press the Break key. Any
Windows version since at least Win2K will pop up the System Properties page,
which will identify the Windows version that is running.

Trouble is, many modern keyboards don't have a Break key, or they hide it.
Many combine it with the Pause key and we must toggle the Function key
on/off, so they call it the Pause/Break key. Other keyboards require other
workarounds.

Another way is to press the Win key, then type Winver and press Enter. Or
run Control Panel and click System. And there are other ways.

Of course, none of these is obvious from just staring at the monitor screen.
But if you knew how to do this in Win7 (or Vista or WinXP or...), then you
know how to do it in Win8 - and vice versa. And if you didn't know how, it
takes only a minute to learn. ;)

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2012 (Build 16.4.3505.0912) in Win8 Pro


"Mike Barnes" wrote in message
...

Ken Blake :
I use Windows 8, almost exclusively with the traditional desktop
interface, and with Start 8 installed. If you were to look at and use
my computer, you would have a hard time realizing that it's not
Windows 7.

Interesting... exactly how *would* I discover that it's not W7? Would my
desktop look any different, for instance? Would I see my quick launch
bar, my taskbar, and the tray exactly as I do now? With the Windows
Classic theme? (I'm not bothered about the orb, I don't use it.)

--
Mike Barnes

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:02:28 +0100, mick wrote:

I have a friend who is asking me to help him choose a new desktop
computer. He has an very old machine running win xp, he does not do
much other than email, internet, a bit of video editing and photograph
editing. He is also not that computer literate, I have to walk him
through most basic things much of the time.

Choosing a computer to suit his needs is not much trouble but I am
stuck on whether to advise win7 or win8. I know a lot about win7 and
can help him to easily get to grips with understanding it, but if I go
for win8 I know it will be more difficult, as I do not have that here
at home to play with when he asks the inevitable help questions over
the phone.

The new computer will be between 4 and 8gb, no gaming, no touch screen.
I don't want to appear selfish from my point of view and help him spend
his money by buying an already oldish win7 when the newer win8 is
widely advertised as the next best thing since sliced bread if you see
what I mean.

As to myself, I have three machines here with win7 and cannot ever see
me upgrading to win8 as all the reports I have read so far just don't
convince me it is better. I had vista on a couple of machines awhile
back and although it worked well(for me), win 7 just blew it out of the
water and that is what I will be sticking with for quite a long time.

Oh, what to do :-?


The thing to remember about Win8 is that it is primarily optimized for
*touch-screen* hardware. Desktop PC with touch-screen monitor or
tablet PC. It has a smart-phone like GUI.





--
=========== Tecknomage ===========
Computer Systems Specialist
IT Technician
(retired)
San Diego, CA

"Tecknomage" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:02:28 +0100, mick wrote:

I have a friend who is asking me to help him choose a new desktop
computer. He has an very old machine running win xp, he does not do
much other than email, internet, a bit of video editing and photograph
editing. He is also not that computer literate, I have to walk him
through most basic things much of the time.

Choosing a computer to suit his needs is not much trouble but I am
stuck on whether to advise win7 or win8. I know a lot about win7 and
can help him to easily get to grips with understanding it, but if I go
for win8 I know it will be more difficult, as I do not have that here
at home to play with when he asks the inevitable help questions over
the phone.

The new computer will be between 4 and 8gb, no gaming, no touch screen.
I don't want to appear selfish from my point of view and help him spend
his money by buying an already oldish win7 when the newer win8 is
widely advertised as the next best thing since sliced bread if you see
what I mean.

As to myself, I have three machines here with win7 and cannot ever see
me upgrading to win8 as all the reports I have read so far just don't
convince me it is better. I had vista on a couple of machines awhile
back and although it worked well(for me), win 7 just blew it out of the
water and that is what I will be sticking with for quite a long time.

Oh, what to do :-?


The thing to remember about Win8 is that it is primarily optimized for
*touch-screen* hardware. Desktop PC with touch-screen monitor or
tablet PC. It has a smart-phone like GUI.

And this is Microsoft's big error with Win 8: they are trying to force
everyone, even a skilled user of a Windows XP, Vista or 7 desktop PC, to use
an OS which is more suited to a tablet with a touch screen. They are
imposing change for the sake of change, and forcing people to unlearn what
they already know in order to learn something new.

By all means provide a new tablet-oriented shell as an *option* but don't
make it compulsory and throw away the old shell.

From my limited use of Win 8 when setting them up for customers, the innards
of Win 8 are probably fine: it may well be faster, more secure and have a
few additional capabilities. But I'd say that to be usable by anyone who has
prior knowledge of XP/Vista/7, it is essential that Win 7 shell, taskbar and
start button are installed.

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:02:28 +0100, mick wrote:

I have a friend who is asking me to help him choose a new desktop
computer. He has an very old machine running win xp, he does not do
much other than email, internet, a bit of video editing and photograph
editing. He is also not that computer literate, I have to walk him
through most basic things much of the time.

Choosing a computer to suit his needs is not much trouble but I am
stuck on whether to advise win7 or win8. I know a lot about win7 and
can help him to easily get to grips with understanding it, but if I go
for win8 I know it will be more difficult, as I do not have that here
at home to play with when he asks the inevitable help questions over
the phone.

The new computer will be between 4 and 8gb, no gaming, no touch screen.
I don't want to appear selfish from my point of view and help him spend
his money by buying an already oldish win7 when the newer win8 is
widely advertised as the next best thing since sliced bread if you see
what I mean.

As to myself, I have three machines here with win7 and cannot ever see
me upgrading to win8 as all the reports I have read so far just don't
convince me it is better. I had vista on a couple of machines awhile
back and although it worked well(for me), win 7 just blew it out of the
water and that is what I will be sticking with for quite a long time.

Oh, what to do :-?

A couple of thoughts.

Whern I made the most recent notebook purchase from HP I had a choice
of Vista or Win 7. I took Vista as I was familiar with it and thought
I would upgrade later to Win 7.

A year or so after that my wife wanted a notebook and all I could find
was Win 7 machines so that is what we bought. Since she had Win 7, I
decided I needed to upgrade to Win 7 so I could answer any questions
she had.

The results:
Immediate after installing Win 7on my notebook, I found that HP had
not and would not be offering Win 7 drivers for my machine since it
wasn't the native OS. I managed to work around that after a few days
but the hassle factor was high and the fiddle factor was ongoing.

The second thing was she never really learned Win 7. It was just too
easy to yell for me.

When she expressed an interest in an I Pad I immediate took her to the
Apple store and bought one and also Apple's support service .

Gave her notebook to my grandson who thinks it is great because it has
big screen and 2 disk drives. (He has no idea the second drive is not
actually working.)

Now when my wife says something isn't right with her I Pad or she has
some question, I just smile and hand her the phone. Life is good.

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:13:05 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 16:25:05 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:02:28 +0100, mick wrote:

Choosing a computer to suit his needs is not much trouble but I am
stuck on whether to advise win7 or win8. I know a lot about win7 and
can help him to easily get to grips with understanding it, but if I go
for win8 I know it will be more difficult, as I do not have that here
at home to play with when he asks the inevitable help questions over
the phone.

The new computer will be between 4 and 8gb, no gaming, no touch screen.
I don't want to appear selfish from my point of view and help him spend
his money by buying an already oldish win7 when the newer win8 is
widely advertised as the next best thing since sliced bread if you see
what I mean.

As to myself, I have three machines here with win7 and cannot ever see
me upgrading to win8 as all the reports I have read so far just don't
convince me it is better. I had vista on a couple of machines awhile
back and although it worked well(for me), win 7 just blew it out of the
water and that is what I will be sticking with for quite a long time.

Oh, what to do :-?


I strongly recommend Windows 8. It is almost always better to have the
newer version, rather than the older one.

Despite what many people think about it, it is not necessary to use
the new Metro/Modern interface: Windows 8 has two interfaces; the
Modern/Metro Interface (which may be all you've looked at) and the
traditional Desktop Interface. That traditional Desktop Interface is
almost identical to Windows 7's interface; the biggest difference is
that there is no Start Orb to click to bring up the Start menu. But
note that you can get the Start Orb back by using one of several
third-party programs, either free or very inexpensive (Classic Shell
at http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/ and Start8 at
http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/; my personal preference is
Start8, but they are both very good). And going from one interface to
the other is very easy; there are several ways, but simply pressing
the Windows key is perhaps the easiest. Simply installing one of those
two and using the traditional desktop interface may be a better
choice for you than going to Windows 7.

I use Windows 8, almost exclusively with the traditional desktop
interface, and with Start 8 installed. If you were to look at and use
my computer, you would have a hard time realizing that it's not
Windows 7.

And another new third-party program that I like and you might want is
the $4.99 ModernMix at http://www.stardock.com/products/modernmix/

I agree with you to a point. I had Win8 for a while but then started
over for reasons other then the OS and went back to Win7. I just
could not see any advantage to win8 for Desktop use. The plus's, what
few there were, were in very small performance improvements and some
nice (but not critically needed) improvements in some of the native
apps. The Cons included the horrible look to Win8, it was like going
back in time to Win3 with zero finesse in the "looks" aspect.


What you call "the horrible look" isn't there on my machine. Please
reread my message quoted above, and let me repeat "I use Windows 8,
almost exclusively with the traditional desktop interface, and with
Start 8 installed. If you were to look at and use my computer, you
would have a hard time realizing that it's not Windows 7. "

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:10:16 +0100, Mike Barnes
wrote:

Ken Blake :
I use Windows 8, almost exclusively with the traditional desktop
interface, and with Start 8 installed. If you were to look at and use
my computer, you would have a hard time realizing that it's not
Windows 7.

Interesting... exactly how *would* I discover that it's not W7?


As always, hold down the Windows key, and press Pause|Break. Or just
look around enough and you'll see a few small differences. But there
aren't many and they are small.


Would my desktop look any different, for instance?


Not much.


Would I see my quick launch
bar, my taskbar, and the tray exactly as I do now? With the Windows
Classic theme? (I'm not bothered about the orb, I don't use it.)


Yes.

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 11:13:28 +0100, mick wrote:

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:02:28 +0100, mick wrote:


Is there anywhere where there are computers with Win 7 and Win 8 that he
can play with? Maybe his reactions will be informative.

That is a good idea, I will give him my laptop to play with for awhile
so he gets a feel for win7. There are plenty of new machines in the
shops locally with win8.


I don't think it's a good idea at all. He will see Windows 8 mostly
with the Modern/Metro interface and without any of the third-party
programs I recommended installed. So he will very likely get an
erroneous poor opinion of it.

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 11:48:24 +0100, mick wrote:

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:02:28 +0100, mick wrote:

As to myself, I have three machines here with win7 and cannot ever see
me upgrading to win8 as all the reports I have read so far just don't
convince me it is better. I had vista on a couple of machines awhile
back and although it worked well(for me), win 7 just blew it out of the
water and that is what I will be sticking with for quite a long time.


Let me add a few points to my earlier message, strongly recommending
Windows 8, and explain why I say that

1. If Windows 8 is better than Windows 7, for the vast majority of
people it's not much better.

2. But even if it's not better than Windows 7, it's also not worse. In
most cases (again, using the desktop interface and using third-party
software like Start8), it's almost identical.

3. For you, and for almost everyone running Windows 7, there's little
reason to upgrade. Staying with Windows 7, at least for the near
future, should be fine.

4. But for someone buying a new computer and having to choose between
Windows 7 or 8, to me it's no contest: he should choose the newer
version, Windows 8. That's for the following reasons:

a. Windows 8 will be supported longer than Windows 7

b. As new hardware and software comes out, some of it will be
supported only on Windows 8. Get Windows 8 *now*, so you don't have to
upgrade later (but for someone like you who already has Windows 7,
there's no disadvantage to upgrading later rather than now).

c. Security improvements will mostly be directed toward the newest
version, Windows 8.

d. There is *always* a learning curve and a potential for problems
when you take a step as big as this one, regardless of how wonderful
whatever you're contemplating moving to is. Sooner or later you'll
have to upgrade (to Windows 8 or its successor) because you'll want
support for hardware or software that you can't get in 7, but don't
rush it.

e. Your friend should embark on the learning curve to Windows 8 now,
not have to take the learning curve for Windows 7 now, and for Windows
8 later.

So to repeat myself, you and almost everyone else, will have to
upgrade to Windows 8 (or its successor) sooner or later, but there's
no rush. You are not like your friend buying a new computer.

You certainly put a good case across for win8. Your comments are most
welcome, thanks Ken.


You're welcome. Glad to help.

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 07:42:50 -0700, Tecknomage
wrote:


The thing to remember about Win8 is that it is primarily optimized for
*touch-screen* hardware. Desktop PC with touch-screen monitor or
tablet PC. It has a smart-phone like GUI.


As far as I'm concerned, the most important thing to remember is that
it has *two* interfaces. The one you are talking about (the
"smart-phone like GUI") is only the default one, and one that doesn't
have to ever be used. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, I hardly
ever use it; the other interface, the one I use and recommend for
those without touch screens, is almost exactly like Windows 7's ,
especially if you add a third-party program.

In Ken Blake
wrote:

As far as I'm concerned, the most important thing to remember is that
it has *two* interfaces. The one you are talking about (the
"smart-phone like GUI") is only the default one, and one that doesn't
have to ever be used. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, I hardly
ever use it; the other interface, the one I use and recommend for
those without touch screens, is almost exactly like Windows 7's ,
especially if you add a third-party program.

Ignoring the GUI, how similar are the underlying OSes?

Is Win8 "Professional" different in any meaningful way from Win7
"Professional," for example?

--
St. Paul, MN

On 4/12/13 9:07 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:13:05 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 16:25:05 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:02:28 +0100, mick wrote:

snip

apps. The Cons included the horrible look to Win8, it was like going
back in time to Win3 with zero finesse in the "looks" aspect.


What you call "the horrible look" isn't there on my machine. Please
reread my message quoted above, and let me repeat "I use Windows 8,
almost exclusively with the traditional desktop interface, and with
Start 8 installed. If you were to look at and use my computer, you
would have a hard time realizing that it's not Windows 7. "

Believing Ashton's comment refers to the desktop as it is out of the
box, I have to agree with him. If we are going to comment on the visual
aspect of any OS, I think that should represent how it looks "out of the
box", not what we can turn it into with 3rd party additions. When I saw
the desktop, my first reaction was it looked like GEM/3, which is even
older than Win3. I went and looked at the GEM/3 desktop, and Win 8
isn't quite that bad. I'd say Win 8 is closer to the Atari 16/32 bit
desktop when it first came out. It was based on GEM.

Like you, I'll be customizing my Win7/8 desktops when the new computer
is finished. If FedEx is to be believed, the DOA motherboard
replacement should be here today.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.3
Firefox 20.0
Thunderbird 17.0.5
LibreOffice 4.0.1.2

I like the Windows Media Center in Windows 7. I read somewhere that the WMC
doesn't come with Windows 8 but must be bought separately. Is that true?

-Moonglo

"mick" wrote in message ...

I have a friend who is asking me to help him choose a new desktop
computer. He has an very old machine running win xp, he does not do
much other than email, internet, a bit of video editing and photograph
editing. He is also not that computer literate, I have to walk him
through most basic things much of the time.

Choosing a computer to suit his needs is not much trouble but I am
stuck on whether to advise win7 or win8. I know a lot about win7 and
can help him to easily get to grips with understanding it, but if I go
for win8 I know it will be more difficult, as I do not have that here
at home to play with when he asks the inevitable help questions over
the phone.

The new computer will be between 4 and 8gb, no gaming, no touch screen.
I don't want to appear selfish from my point of view and help him spend
his money by buying an already oldish win7 when the newer win8 is
widely advertised as the next best thing since sliced bread if you see
what I mean.

As to myself, I have three machines here with win7 and cannot ever see
me upgrading to win8 as all the reports I have read so far just don't
convince me it is better. I had vista on a couple of machines awhile
back and although it worked well(for me), win 7 just blew it out of the
water and that is what I will be sticking with for quite a long time.

Oh, what to do :-?

--
mick