MS's support logic

In article , says...

Dave wrote:
On Fri, 08 Aug 2014 20:20:10 +0200, A wrote:

Or you can use Linux which is free. I recommend Net Runner for ex Window
users:

http://www.netrunner-os.com/

You can dual boot with XP until you get used to it.

Linux is ok, but it's not for everyone. Linux users like to tout the
system using as their main argument that windows is awful, full of bugs
and virus ridden.

I don't agree. I just don't want to rent Windows which is what you will
have to do in the very near future. We're on the *threshold". Office 365
is just the beginning.

That's the truth. I stated during 98 Beta testing that this was the way
MS wanted to go, e.g. pay a fee for every time you use their product.
They'll at least try that approach if only nudging into it to gauge
response. Hope we say "SCREW YOU, YOU GREEDY *******S ALWAYS WANTING
MORE".

On 2014-08-08, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2014-08-08, pjp wrote:

Isn't stopping IE as well as XP security updates kinda like extortion
and/or blackmail on MS's part?

10+ years support not enough for you?

Perhaps you want to switch to linux where with the free versions support for
a particular release lasts typically 3 to six years?



Then one would upgrade to the next version.
Not really a big deal.
Change repo numbers, run a dup command.

--
As a child, I fell on an Encyclopaedea, but still remember most of it.

On 2014-08-08, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 08 Aug 2014 20:20:10 +0200, A wrote:

Or you can use Linux which is free. I recommend Net Runner for ex Window
users:

http://www.netrunner-os.com/

You can dual boot with XP until you get used to it.

Linux is ok, but it's not for everyone. Linux users like to tout the
system using as their main argument that windows is awful, full of bugs
and virus ridden.
It isn't, I've nothing against Linux but I refuse to discard apps I like
and have paid for in favour of the Linux equivalent if available. Most of
the good open source stuff like Libre Office runs on either system.
I have Ubuntu running under virtual box but rarely use it, although for
those paranoid about malware that might be a good solution.

Linux runs Firefox, TBird, Chrome, Spreadsheets, etc.
It's for everyone.

--
As a child, I fell on an Encyclopaedea, but still remember most of it.

In article , says...

On 2014-08-08, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 08 Aug 2014 20:20:10 +0200, A wrote:

Or you can use Linux which is free. I recommend Net Runner for ex Window
users:

http://www.netrunner-os.com/

You can dual boot with XP until you get used to it.

Linux is ok, but it's not for everyone. Linux users like to tout the
system using as their main argument that windows is awful, full of bugs
and virus ridden.
It isn't, I've nothing against Linux but I refuse to discard apps I like
and have paid for in favour of the Linux equivalent if available. Most of
the good open source stuff like Libre Office runs on either system.
I have Ubuntu running under virtual box but rarely use it, although for
those paranoid about malware that might be a good solution.

Linux runs Firefox, TBird, Chrome, Spreadsheets, etc.
It's for everyone.

NO it's not. True you can get most common apps for it but if you like
playing games then basically Windows is only choice (unless want to trap
yourself into PS or Xbox ecosystem and it's exorbitant pricing for
games), e.g. there's no MS Flight Sim of any version for Linux, I'm
unaware of any of the Need For Speed series working on Linux, same with
Call Of Duty and Medal Of Honor series, Bioshock and the like, various
RPG's and RTS's etc. etc. and for that matter almost all other major
games of any genre. The few that do, then where's the support for my
flight stick, wheel etc.

Also what's the alternative to full version of Photoshop or Autocad to
name just two heavy hitters.

On 2014-08-09, pjp wrote:
In article , says...

On 2014-08-08, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 08 Aug 2014 20:20:10 +0200, A wrote:

Or you can use Linux which is free. I recommend Net Runner for ex Window
users:

http://www.netrunner-os.com/

You can dual boot with XP until you get used to it.

Linux is ok, but it's not for everyone. Linux users like to tout the
system using as their main argument that windows is awful, full of bugs
and virus ridden.
It isn't, I've nothing against Linux but I refuse to discard apps I like
and have paid for in favour of the Linux equivalent if available. Most of
the good open source stuff like Libre Office runs on either system.
I have Ubuntu running under virtual box but rarely use it, although for
those paranoid about malware that might be a good solution.

Linux runs Firefox, TBird, Chrome, Spreadsheets, etc.
It's for everyone.

NO it's not. True you can get most common apps for it but if you like
playing games then basically Windows is only choice (unless want to trap
yourself into PS or Xbox ecosystem and it's exorbitant pricing for
games), e.g. there's no MS Flight Sim of any version for Linux, I'm
unaware of any of the Need For Speed series working on Linux, same with
Call Of Duty and Medal Of Honor series, Bioshock and the like, various
RPG's and RTS's etc. etc. and for that matter almost all other major
games of any genre. The few that do, then where's the support for my
flight stick, wheel etc.

Are you some kind of ****ing moron?
You griped about MS extorting you for money, then when given a free
alternative, you mention all these games.
If you want to play games, then buy Windows.
How are you playing these games on an old XP pc?


Also what's the alternative to full version of Photoshop or Autocad to
name just two heavy hitters.

If you own Autocad, you can pay for Windows.
Or the new PC Windows will come on anyway.

--
As a child, I fell on an Encyclopaedea, but still remember most of it.

pjp wrote:


Isn't stopping IE as well as XP security updates kinda like extortion
and/or blackmail on MS's part?

They act as if money isn't an issue for most people and it's little to
no "effort" for most people to simply throw out their old computer and
buy another.

Welll I for one can't easily afford to just throw away a pc that works
fine and does all I want simply because MS decides I should no longer
use it for it's intended purpose because they decide they'll no longer
patch it to work properly and as it should have when it was bought.

It's obvious now that MS releases software, they know has bugs in it nd
they've already decided to NOT fix them unless they have to.

In the meantime, the old XP pc's I have here that continue to work will
continue to connect to the internet. Until/unless something gets
surreptiously installed on them I see no reason to not keep doing what
I've always done. If said software becomes a problem I'll simply reimage
the pc and start again.

As far as I'm concerned MS is leaving me out to hang so I don't see why
the stink shouldn't carry wherever it wants to go. not my fault or
responsibility nor can I do anything about it except throw it away and
that I refuse to do with a working pc.

Gine me a $5 upgrade path and I might change my mind but no way I'm
buying a copy of Vista or Win7 (pc's running XP now will run those OS's)
for the amount they feel it's worth. Geez, we all know it's defective
right out of the box!!!

See, I really don't give a rat's ass about malware, virus's etc. So what
if they cause DOS attacks etc. That's MS's problem for not fixing their
software not mine for using it. As I said, I can reimage anytime so if
it don't affect me ...


Hardly,
Licensed as-is. Known end-of-lifecycle for support and updates.
Willing buyer, willing seller.

Install it (user or pre-installed)constitutes agreement to the EULA.

Disagree with the above, uninstall it. The logic is really yours, not
theirs.


--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

pjp wrote:
In article ,
says...

In pjp
wrote:

Isn't stopping IE as well as XP security updates kinda like extortion
and/or blackmail on MS's part?

How so?

How far back do most consumer software vendors provide free support?

Until the product is bug free as that's the impression they give you
when they sold it to you.


Not quite. You agreed to the EULA upon use including its limited warranty.

--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

In message , pjp
writes:
In article ,
says...
[]
How far back do most consumer software vendors provide free support?

Until the product is bug free as that's the impression they give you
when they sold it to you.

There is _some_ truth in that.

My own opinion is that once they stop supporting a product by law they
must make public ALL the source code and support files so that at the
least someone else can do what they want with it.

You are not alone in that view (though I'm sure there are some who don't
agree). I guess MS - and others - would say that they can't make public
the parts they're still using (and cynics would say they don't want to
reveal just how much that is).

Who would actually take on the task of developing it, is another matter,
plus of course it would branch like anything (OK, like Linux), as
different people added different incompatible additions/fixes/whatever.
Assuming anyone did take it on that is.

(Didn't they actually release the code for some versions of DOS? [And
also claim that they'd lost some of it too?])

In the end it's my opinion that ALL knowledge is owned by ALL of us and
to allow such inital effort to simply be discarded is not in OUR best
interests even if it is for the inital few who created it. It becomes
knowledge lost to all that perhaps might just benefit us all.

Hmm. Drug companies (or we, who use their products) have a similar
dilemma: how do you ensure development funding? (Or to put it another
way, how do you decide when said costs have been recouped, in such a way
as to be sure of future products?)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Mike Jackson |\ _,,,---,,_
and Squeak /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ Shame there's no snooze button
[1998] |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'- on a cat who wants breakfast
zzz '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

In message , Mayayana
writes:
| Isn't stopping IE as well as XP security updates kinda like extortion
| and/or blackmail on MS's part?
|

Yes. They're still issuing updates. You just have to have
a support agreement with them to get those updates. And
for that you have to be a big company that is spending
a minimum amount of money for support. (In the millions
per year, I think.) So they could issue patches on a non-
support basis easily, since they're already making them and
testing them anyway. (They could do it on a "take them if
you want at your own risk" basis.)
Or they could sell personal support for some reasonable price,
like maybe $30 or so per year. It would certainly be reasonable
to expect them to do at least that much, given that XP is
still being used on hundreds of millions of PCs.

Reasonable to ask; not necessarily reasonable to expect they be _forced_
to do so. (Like you, I'm probably one of those who'd pay up [still
mainly using XP here though I have a 7 machine]. It, obviously, depends
on the level asked.)

There _is_ some validity in the point they and their supporters make
that any such support is a duplication of effort, in that the later
versions do (some) things in a different (and arguably safer, though I
think that's overplayed) way.

It's a corporate decision: do they invest money just in new systems, or
in both new and old, with questionable prospects of the return on the
old? $5 a year almost certainly wouldn't cover the costs of collecting
it, and I suspect even at your $30 a year, there'd be sufficient people
who'd decide it was too much, so I suspect they _did_ - and do - assess
the cost and probable returns on old-version support, and have decided
it isn't a viable business plan. (Obliging them to release old source
code ... see previous post.)

But Microsoft has always been brazen about gouging
their customers. They've lost court cases over it, but never
been *really* punished. So they don't care. And in this case

There's some truth in that. Bit like the banks.

their kind of extortion probably isn't illegal. And there's no

I'm sure it isn't. (And if we're honest with ourselves, probably not
really even immoral either, though occasional individual examples are.)

real competition. Apple exploits their customers even worse,
and Linux will probably never be ready for prime time. So

Android is another interesting example!

one has to make do. MS is the only company I know of that
markets new product by saying, "Our old stuff is junk. You
should buy the new stuff."

You've led a sheltered life! Have you never come across the
(contradictory!) phrase "new, improved"? OK, maybe "our old stuff is
junk" as such isn't quite claimed, but certainly "our new stuff is far
better than our old stuff" is pretty universal. (I remember a few years
ago an advertising campaign from Farnell [anyone who works in
electronics in the UK will know their cube bench power supplies with the
two meters on] saying that their main competitor was their old products,
which were still in such wide use; I remember it because it _was_
unusual [for a company to say their new range wasn't that much better
than their old, which is I think what they were saying].)

But the real exploitation of their customers is Microsoft's
media blitz to get everyone saying that XP is no longer safe.

I'd agree with you there - well, I can't comment on the exploitation
aspect, but certainly the FUD one.

It just simply isn't true. Last I saw, there were more attacks
for Win7. And as others have said, it's not really XP that's
likely to need patches. It's IE and MS Office, neither of
which should be used by people who care about system
security. If you do use Office then you'll need to be more
careful about docs in email. There's really no reason at
all that you need to use IE, especially since you can only
install a very old v. 8 on XP.

Though remember that IE is so closely woven that it's part of the OS, so
you're using parts of it even if you don't use it as a browser. (I don't
think it's been possible to completely remove IE since '98SE [where I
think it was, though others disagree; you needed a .dll or two if you
still wanted to use certain help files]. From 2000/XP on, it really is
part of the OS, I think.)
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Mike Jackson |\ _,,,---,,_
and Squeak /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ Shame there's no snooze button
[1998] |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'- on a cat who wants breakfast
zzz '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

On 2014-08-09, pjp wrote:
In article , says...




Also what's the alternative to full version of Photoshop or Autocad to
name just two heavy hitters.

I don't know of any free photo editors that call home on a regular basis
nor any free cad packages that require a hardware device to enable them. If
you need those tools there's no reason to balk at the way Microsoft is
treating you.




--
umop apisdn


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

You've just demonstrated the basic problems with
Linux, from the product to the culture.

1) | Linux runs Firefox, TBird, Chrome, Spreadsheets, etc.
| It's for everyone.

Linux doesn't support most of the software people
use, and to make matters worse, the Linux fanclub
won't admit that. GIMP has been unusable for 20
years now, yet Linux fanatics still pretend it's an
equivalent substitute for the half dozen better image
editors on Windows. If they weren't so defensive about
it then maybe Linux would have good software by now.
But then it might be an easy-to-use mainstream product,
and most Linux fans enjoy that they feel like they're in
an exclusive club. So that's a conundrum: If Linux
ever really gets good on the desktop it will be no good
anymore.

2) | Then one would upgrade to the next version.
| Not really a big deal.
| Change repo numbers, run a dup command.

No sooner do Linux preachers start talking then they
start spouting insider terms and slang, and talking about
opening console windows. If someone needs to open
console windows then the software is not done yet. It's
like someone saying, "Oh dear. My car won't go into gear
and I need to get to work." And you respond, "No probs.
Drop in a new trannie." Even if they understand your
flippant and slangy answer, it's simply not a solution.

3) | Are you some kind of ****ing moron?

The culture. Say someone who's handy and ambitious
finally does manage to get over the hurdles of #1 and #2.
They're setting up a Linux box for fun. They only want it
for web browsing and to tour the museum of prehistoric
and useless software that every "distro" likes to cram
the system with. They also get a kick out of switching
between their 4 empty desktops. They even like the whole
game of opening console windows to type long, abstruse
incantations. It makes them feel like they're in the club,
like they've joined the Linux coven and received their
secret decoder ring. So far, so good. But eventually they
run into a problem and go looking for help. Obstacle #3
is the juvenile, nasty hazing ritual. It turns out that much
of the Linux fan club is made up of unsocialized geeks,
many of whom are teenagers or young men living in their
mother's cellar. Others may hold down a job and even
have some human relationships, but they nevetheless think
it's very clever to be abusive, crude and mean-spirited
to the new converts. Ignorance is a sin in Linuxville. And
like the Perlists, Linux fans celebrate ugly and like to think
they're just a little smarter than everyone else. So learning
the Linux basics is an unnecessarily steep curve.

4) | If you own Autocad, you can pay for Windows.
| Or the new PC Windows will come on anyway.

At some point the Linux salesperson forgets the
whole context of the discussion and their approach
switches from "here's how Linux can work for you"
to a shrill, evangelistic pitch of "here's how you can
work for Linux":
"Maybe you won't have the software you need and
maybe Linux won't work for you at all, but if you need
a computer that works you can always buy a Windows
PC for that. That has nothing to do with running Linux."

| (Like you, I'm probably one of those who'd pay up

Not me. I install service packs after they've been well
tested. I'd never enable Windows Update on any
machine. I don't want their Russian Roulette patches.
I don't use IE online and I don't have MS Office. I
don't know of anything critical for XP, post-SP3, other
than those patches.

| versions do (some) things in a different (and arguably safer, though I
| think that's overplayed) way.
|

It's still NT. The big difference is that restrictions
are in effect by default on Win7. They can still be
used if XP is installed with NTFS formatting. The
media, and even techies, talk a lot about how much
safer Vista/7 is because of file restrictions, but NT has
always had that option.

There was an article just recently about how XP
is getting infected less than Vista/7:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonke...ays-microsoft/

| There's really no reason at
| all that you need to use IE, especially since you can only
| install a very old v. 8 on XP.
|
| Though remember that IE is so closely woven that it's part of the OS, so
| you're using parts of it even if you don't use it as a browser. (I don't
| think it's been possible to completely remove IE since '98SE [where I
| think it was, though others disagree; you needed a .dll or two if you
| still wanted to use certain help files]. From 2000/XP on, it really is
| part of the OS, I think.)

I think we discussed this recently. IE is very deeply
tied in, and some software would break even if IE could
be removed. But there's a difference between IE being
stuck to Windows and using IE online. I have IE6 on my
main machine. The way I see it is it's never a good idea
to update IE. But I would never use it online, either. Within
Windows I don't see any problem with IE. The same
integration that makes it dangerous online makes it
very useful within Windows.

On 2014-08-09, Mayayana wrote:

[SNIP] where necessary

You've just demonstrated the basic problems with
Linux, from the product to the culture.

So what?
I don't care if you use Linux or not.
You use OUTlook Express.


1) | Linux runs Firefox, TBird, Chrome, Spreadsheets, etc.
| It's for everyone.

Linux doesn't support most of the software people
use, and to make matters worse, the Linux fanclub
won't admit that. GIMP has been unusable for 20


I listed most of the software people use.
I use Gimp all the time.
Works fine.


2) | Then one would upgrade to the next version.
| Not really a big deal.
| Change repo numbers, run a dup command.

No sooner do Linux preachers start talking then they
start spouting insider terms and slang, and talking about
opening console windows. If someone needs to open
console windows then the software is not done yet.

I'm not preaching anything.
Look at your long reply.
That's preaching.

A GUI can be used to do the same thing.
You would open the Window that listed repos, and edit.


3) | Are you some kind of ****ing moron?

The culture. Say someone who's handy and ambitious

Then that excludes you.


4) | If you own Autocad, you can pay for Windows.
| Or the new PC Windows will come on anyway.

At some point the Linux salesperson forgets the

I don't care if you use Linux or not.
Stick with Fisher-Price XP.

--
As a child, I fell on an Encyclopaedea, but still remember most of it.

In pjp
wrote:

In article ,
says...


How far back do most consumer software vendors provide free support?

Until the product is bug free as that's the impression they give you
when they sold it to you.

Really? Please provide us with the names of vendors and the products
that they support at no charge until they're "bug free."

You might also provide a list of products that are bug free.

In the end it's my opinion that ALL knowledge is owned by ALL of us

Your post makes it pretty clear that's not true.

--
St. Paul, MN

| I don't care if you use Linux or not.
| You use OUTlook Express.
|

You can probably use OE. Just dual-boot XP, 2000, or
Win98. Or run them in a VM, like all those AppleSeed
BootCampers who consider Windows to be "completely
useless and unapproved by Lord Jobs for anything other
than running all the software I need".

You might also be able to get OE running under WINE.
Just install IE and OE. And don't forget to update the
whole mess every 10 days. (WINE updates every 10 days,
and like GIMP it's been under construction for about 20
years now. They even reached v. 1 awhile back. So there's
never a dull moment when you have WINE.)

So you can probably definitely use OE. No probs, dude.
You should do it now. And if you need your email you can
always use TBird for that.

I am curious, though... What is a Linux devotee doing
hanging around in Windows forums?