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  #376  
Old December 26th 14, 07:25 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Char Jackson
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2014 22:25:39 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| My alien has a definite idea of what _he_ means by left, clockwise,
| north, etc., or his own similar terms; I'm just saying that without
| common reference, you can't convey to him what _you_ mean by them.
|

Have you ever seen a clock that runs backward?
I haven't.


I've seen such clocks, although I don't own one. Amazon has a bunch of them
for sale. I searched on "backwards clock".


--

Char Jackson
Ads
  #377  
Old December 26th 14, 07:51 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Rodney Pont[_4_]
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2014 02:05:59 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

It is important to write so that you can be understood. It is far more
important to write so that you cannot be misunderstood.


That's what my dad used to say only he said communicate instead of
write.

Happy new year to all.

--
Faster, cheaper, quieter than HS2
and built in 5 years;
UKUltraspeed http://www.500kmh.com/


  #378  
Old December 26th 14, 02:34 PM posted to alt.usage.english,alt.windows7.general
Tak To
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Posts: 4
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On 12/21/2014 6:26 PM, Jack Campin wrote:
You don't pronounce the "t" in "tsunami"? I do, and I hear many other
people saying it.

Actually, I completely failed to understand what Seymore4Head meant by
including tsunami, until you, Wolf, and Steve (Steve first) pointed out
that apparently S4H mispronounces it...


I don't know who that is - are they using the "soonahmee" version,
with no discernible "t"? That's common enough that I wouldn't call
it a mispronunciation.

The way the Japanese (or at least the ones that got on Youtube) say it
surprised me, when I heard the word a lot after the 2011 earthquake.
Rather like "tyoonahmee", but there is a slight fricativeness going
along with the palatalization - not enough to constitute an "s" sound,
though.


Is there enough "sh" sound in the "ch" of (English) "church"
to your ear?

It is quite common for people not registering the individual
components of an affricate.

According to the Wiki article on Japanese phonology, /ts/ is
palatalized only before /i/, not before /u/. I can't here any
palatalization in these pronunciations of "tsu"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44t6As8ZjLQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAHhZK91Gdk

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To x
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr


  #379  
Old December 26th 14, 03:20 PM posted to alt.usage.english,alt.windows7.general
Tak To
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On 12/24/2014 1:24 PM, Oliver Cromm wrote:
* Gene E. Bloch:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 23:26:01 +0000, Jack Campin wrote:

You don't pronounce the "t" in "tsunami"? I do, and I hear many other
people saying it.
Actually, I completely failed to understand what Seymore4Head meant by
including tsunami, until you, Wolf, and Steve (Steve first) pointed out
that apparently S4H mispronounces it...

I don't know who that is - are they using the "soonahmee" version,
with no discernible "t"? That's common enough that I wouldn't call
it a mispronunciation.


OTOH, I jut apologized to S4H for saying "mispronunciation" :-)


I haven't encountered it, though.

The way the Japanese (or at least the ones that got on Youtube) say it
surprised me, when I heard the word a lot after the 2011 earthquake.
Rather like "tyoonahmee", but there is a slight fricativeness going
along with the palatalization - not enough to constitute an "s" sound,
though.


That what we denote by s in this case is indeed only a side-effect
produced by Japanese tongues in the combination of t+u.


Uh? According to the Wiki article on Japanese phonology{1},
the initial consonant in Japanese つ tsu is indeed the
affricate which is commonly denoted by [ts] in IPA{2} and
appears in Standard German as "z".

{1} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_phonology
{2} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voicele...olar_affricate

Perhaps you are influenced by the fact that the つ tsu gana
is traditionally placed in the same column as た ta, て te
and と to? One might say [t] and [ts] are allophones of
the same phoneme in Japanese.

Similarly,
"shi" in Japanese words is just the result of i following s.


OTOH, the initial consonant in Japanese すshi is an [s] that
is alveolo-palatalized ([ɕ] in IPA){3}. It is neither the "s"
nor the "sh" sound in English. Likewise, one might say [s] and
[ɕ] are allophones of the same phoneme in Japanese.

{3} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voicele...latal_sibilant

Natively, they can't say "tu" (engl. "too") or "si" (engl. "see").


Perhaps it is better to say that the sound combinations of
[tu] and [si] do not appear in Japanese. Surely some native
Japanese speakers can learn to pronounce these English sounds
correctly.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To x
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr




  #380  
Old December 26th 14, 03:26 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
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| Have you ever seen a clock that runs backward?
| I haven't.
|
| I've seen such clocks, although I don't own one. Amazon has a bunch of
them
| for sale. I searched on "backwards clock".
|

Oh, well. Then I may be wrong and clockwise may,
indeed, be undefinable, along with all other words.
It wouldn't be the first time the exception has negated
the rule in this thread.


  #381  
Old December 27th 14, 01:27 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Gene E. Bloch[_2_]
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Posts: 7,485
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2014 00:25:17 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:

On Thu, 25 Dec 2014 22:25:39 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| My alien has a definite idea of what _he_ means by left, clockwise,
| north, etc., or his own similar terms; I'm just saying that without
| common reference, you can't convey to him what _you_ mean by them.
|

Have you ever seen a clock that runs backward?
I haven't.


I've seen such clocks, although I don't own one. Amazon has a bunch of them
for sale. I searched on "backwards clock".


I owned one a long time ago, and hung it on my living room wall.

My son, then 6 years old, was so upset by it that I promptly removed
it...

The numbers were also backwards: the clock was sold to be mounted on the
wall of a bar behind the bar patrons, so they could see it right way
round in the bar mirror.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)
  #382  
Old December 28th 14, 01:20 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)
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Posts: 5,291
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In message , Mayayana
writes:
| My alien has a definite idea of what _he_ means by left, clockwise,
| north, etc., or his own similar terms; I'm just saying that without
| common reference, you can't convey to him what _you_ mean by them.
|

Have you ever seen a clock that runs backward?


I actually own one; although bought as a novelty, IIRR from the
left-handers club, it keeps very good time as it happens.

I haven't. Nor do I know of any culture that defines
left as something other than left. They might have
different words, but left is left. Likewise with language.


Yes, but the fact remains that you can't convey the concept by verbal
means alone without the common frame of reference. But since it is clear
that either you see this as a truism - which I certainly didn't the
first time someone raised the matter with me, or that you consider
discussion of the matter not only as pointless but offensive in some
way, can we please drop it?

In the US, Canada and England I don't know of any
accent that doesn't pronounce the vowels in cat
or hearth or bed in a way that differs so much from
other accents that the words are unrecognizable.


Oh, I have come across such! Even within Britain. And I have heard -
though possibly exaggerated for comic effect - some Americans (US)
pronounce words like "fat" as two syllables: spelling how I hear them
pronounce it in a way another average Englishman would understand, I'd
say it was close to "fayut" (with the a as in hay). And the Northern
Irish accent rotates some of the vowels in a way that I have to think
hard to parse, though I usually can.

There are only accent differences. No one pronounces


(There are also vocabulary differences, and - though their "wrongness"
is agreed by most, with a few [mainly transatlantic] exceptions -
grammar differences.)

cat like caht or hearth like hair or bed like beed. If


But some pronounce cat as ket, or kayut. Hearth I think I _have_ heard
as hairth. Bed - no, I agree not beed, though I'd say baird or bayud I
have heard. (All of which assume the reader knows what I mean when I
write ket, kayut, bairth, beed, baird, and bayud - which is a very
dubious assumption. We need the phonetic alphabet, or to start uploading
audio clips - neither of which is going to happen here, though both
exist in other spheres.)

there were fundamental differences then I wouldn't
be able to understand British speech or Southern
US speech.


I sometimes don't understand folk, and I'm not alone. A - possibly
apocryphal - tale is of some British author, who on being told by a
USAnian something like "oh, you're a writer", with the normal USA
pronunciation thereof, replied that he'd never been on a horse in his
life.

| I am certainly not seeking a god!
|

Too bad. That might be a worthy pursuit.


I'm not going there.

| the apparently more abstruse aspects of relative
| truth by exploring apparent quirks in the fabric.
|
| I was simply using it as a parallel for the pronunciation discussion
| which we _were_ having. I'd almost say I wish I hadn't, but I _enjoy_
| such discussions; you seem not to (in fact in this thread, you seem not
| to have the concept of enjoyment at all, which from your posting in
| other threads I know isn't true).

I'm just being critical of the tendency here
toward intellectual frivolity. The thread has gone


One man's frivolity is another's innocent entertainment.

into hundreds of posts saying very little. Just
lots of bickering about angels on the head of a


Apart from between you and I, I don't think bickering is an appropriate
word; IMO, most of the discussion has been amicable, and to most
involved enjoyable.

pin. (Which I think is a perfect analogy, deriving
as it does from the problem of mistaking pseudo-
technical nitpicking for profound understanding.)


I believe the origin of that expression/concept is something religious
(to do with some perceived property of angels?); not being so myself, I
can't comment on its appropriateness.

Debating the accuracy of the word clockwise
is just conceptual masturbation. It serves no


You do like that word, don't you!

purpose and sheds light on nothing. It's not an


I brought up the concept as a parallel to the matter of pronunciation.
Without some common frame of reference, you can't convey to my alien
what you mean by left, north, clockwise, or several similar concepts;
without a common frame of reference, you can't actually say that no-one
pronounces bed as beed, because you don't know how I pronounce those two
sounds. (To give another example, someone earlier in this thread
commented that some areas/whatever pronounced marry, merry, and Mary the
same - which puzzled others, to whom there _is_ no difference in the
sound of those three.)

insight to note that the hands of a clock seen
from the back are not going in the same direction.


I don't think anyone has claimed it is.
[]
It's true that I don't have to read the thread,
but if I see that there are new posts then naturally
I'm curious whether someone has posted something


Perhaps you could save yourself some bother by killfiling me? I
certainly thought of doing so for you, but I've found your posts (here
and in XP) genuinely useful (I think I even have some marked keep, i. e.
set not to expire [my news client defaults to expiring posts after a
number of days I can set]), so I haven't. (I guess I could set up some
complex rule just for this thread, but life's too short.)

of interest. I think the real problem here is the
cross-posting to alt.usage.english for no reason.


I would "posit", to use one of your words, that whoever first did so did
so because they thought the pronunciation aspects were more relevant
there than here, with which I would agree!

That seems to be a rather crusty group, mainly
involved with one-upping each others' "cleverness".
(Which I mean in the British sense: The theatrical
appearance of intelligence, with no value placed on
intelligence itself.)

I can't comment; I left AUE (or it might have been AEU, or both) many
years ago, partly because I found some discussions got too heated
(people feeling strongly - _not_ just capping each other, as you
describe), but mainly because I just couldn't keep up with the traffic
level there. I've not been back for the same reasons, though don't know
if either is still valid, so I'm glad whoever cross-posted it kept this
one here. [Though for the sake of _this_ 'group, perhaps we should start
to wind this up ... (-:]

2
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The hypothalamus is one of the most important parts of the brain, involved in
many kinds of motivation, among other functions. The hypothalamus controls the
"Four F's": fighting, fleeing, feeding, and mating. -Heard in a neuropsychology
classroom
  #383  
Old December 28th 14, 04:43 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Seymore4Head
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Posts: 88
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On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 00:20:03 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

The hypothalamus is one of the most important parts of the brain, involved in
many kinds of motivation, among other functions. The hypothalamus controls the
"Four F's": fighting, fleeing, feeding, and mating. -Heard in a neuropsychology
classroom


fornicating

Or is there another level of humor that makes "mating" the punch line?
  #384  
Old December 29th 14, 03:31 AM posted to alt.usage.english,alt.windows7.general
Oliver Cromm
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Posts: 21
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* Gene E. Bloch:

On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 14:33:41 -0500, Oliver Cromm wrote:

* Gene E. Bloch:

Verizon charges for data usage (on the phone network) exceeding a rather
small limit. I pay for only 1GB per phone, although there are bigger
plans.

The saving grace is that the phones are WiFi capable, and they don't
charge for that, so judicious use avoids overcharges.


I'm sure that's possible with 1 GB, but with 100 MB, I have to set
up rather aggressive e-mail filtering or risk hitting the limit
just from that.


Ouch!

Yeah - I have friends who will send e-mails with photos embedded, rather
than attached or linked to.

I rather quickly learned not to open them on my phone. In fact, often
not on my computer, either. Still pictures of folk dancers dancing,
mostly pretty much the same at one monthly party after another, do not
inspire me :-)


Oh, I'm not talking about downloading or opening all messages in
full, just about getting the overview. Although my mistake might
be using the Yahoo Mail app. Although I only get three or four
mails in that account daily, the app downloads thumbnails of
pictures and possibly other unnecessary stuff even before I open
the mails. Thus it uses more data than the general mail app for 15
messages a day, of which I may open one on mobile data (fifteen is
after filtering out about a hundred from mailing lists and similar
things).

--
If you kill one person, you go to jail; if you kill 20, you go
to an institution for the insane; if you kill 20,000, you get
political asylum. -- Reed Brody, special counsel
for prosecutions at Human Rights Watch
  #385  
Old December 29th 14, 04:02 AM posted to alt.usage.english,alt.windows7.general
Oliver Cromm
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Posts: 21
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* Tak To:

On 12/24/2014 1:24 PM, Oliver Cromm wrote:
* Gene E. Bloch:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 23:26:01 +0000, Jack Campin wrote:

You don't pronounce the "t" in "tsunami"? I do, and I hear many other
people saying it.
Actually, I completely failed to understand what Seymore4Head meant by
including tsunami, until you, Wolf, and Steve (Steve first) pointed out
that apparently S4H mispronounces it...

I don't know who that is - are they using the "soonahmee" version,
with no discernible "t"? That's common enough that I wouldn't call
it a mispronunciation.

OTOH, I jut apologized to S4H for saying "mispronunciation" :-)


I haven't encountered it, though.

The way the Japanese (or at least the ones that got on Youtube) say it
surprised me, when I heard the word a lot after the 2011 earthquake.
Rather like "tyoonahmee", but there is a slight fricativeness going
along with the palatalization - not enough to constitute an "s" sound,
though.


That what we denote by s in this case is indeed only a side-effect
produced by Japanese tongues in the combination of t+u.


Uh? According to the Wiki article on Japanese phonology{1},
the initial consonant in Japanese つ tsu is indeed the
affricate which is commonly denoted by [ts] in IPA{2} and
appears in Standard German as "z".

{1} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_phonology
{2} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voicele...olar_affricate

Perhaps you are influenced by the fact that the つ tsu gana
is traditionally placed in the same column as た ta, て te
and と to? One might say [t] and [ts] are allophones of
the same phoneme in Japanese.

Similarly,
"shi" in Japanese words is just the result of i following s.


OTOH, the initial consonant in Japanese すshi is an [s] that
is alveolo-palatalized ([ɕ] in IPA){3}. It is neither the "s"
nor the "sh" sound in English. Likewise, one might say [s] and
[ɕ] are allophones of the same phoneme in Japanese.

{3} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voicele...latal_sibilant

Natively, they can't say "tu" (engl. "too") or "si" (engl. "see").


Perhaps it is better to say that the sound combinations of
[tu] and [si] do not appear in Japanese. Surely some native
Japanese speakers can learn to pronounce these English sounds
correctly.


I don't feel responsible for how you misinterpret me in this case.
Your first sentence, to me, seems pretty much equivalent to what I
said, and I don't know how your version is better.

As for your second sentence, I try again, picking up your
vocabulary: *Natively*, i.e. when they are completely within their
native speech system, the result of having the phoneme /u/ follow
the phoneme /t/ is that the /t/ is realized as [ts], never as [t].
I call that a side-effect, because they don't consciously produce
a different sound from the sound in "ta". In my understanding,
that relation is not just in the kana table, it's in their head as
well.

Of course some, actually most native speakers of any language can
learn to produce sounds that they *natively* don't have or know.
For example, in my experience, pretty much any native speaker of
Japanese is able to learn to produce l and r. What is really hard
to learn is to *hear* the difference, so, to use them at the right
time requires extra effort (e.g. remembering the spelling).

--
If Helen Keller is alone in the forest and falls down, does she
make a sound?
-- Michael O'Donohue
 




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