Router going bad?

So I've had this particular router for only a few years, a Dlink
DIR-850L rev B. Here's the background to the story.

Recently I'd been finding that I've been experiencing unexplained random
non-connections to websites. Not disconnections, where you would see a
message saying that connection to the Internet has gone down, just
non-connections, everything looks fine, there's no indication of the
connection dropping, but just that many requests to do something on the
Internet would time out. Even websites you're currently connected to any
clicking on them would stop responding. These time outs would last about
5 minutes at most, and then start working again.

So initially, I opened up tech support cases with my VPN provider and my
ISP. The ISP helped narrow it down to the router. After I connected my
desktop directly to the modem, I tried a few tests and found that
certain network speed tests even increased in speed by a factor of 10x!

Now, I've noticed this speed test deficiency for a number of months,
even before this timeout issue. The timeout issue has only been a thing
for less than a month. I didn't think they were both related to the
router. I had blamed the ISP for this, but it looks like they had
nothing to do with it, it was my router all along. So I used this speed
test method to determine if the router was experiencing a problem or
not, from this point forward.

Afterwards, I flashed the router firmware to the latest version
available. And tried it again. I had about 5 firmware updates I had to
go through serially, as each firmware required the previous version to
be installed first. I retested the speed, and each firmware seemed to
increase the speed back up to what I should expect, what I got when I
had my desktop directly connected to the modem. This only lasted 10
minutes, and then subsequent tests had the speed tests back down to
where they used to be before.

Is it possible that the router's WAN port is switching down to a slower
speed Ethernet connection (e.g. 10 Mbps Ethernet vs. 100 or 1000 Mbps)?
This only happens during the speed tests, other activities seem to
happen without affecting the speed at all.

Also another weird thing, when I run the speed tests through a VPN
server, I get pretty close to full speed too, even though it's still
going through the same router.

Yousuf Khan

Okay never mind all of that below. I just figured out what the issue
was. I guess in the process of writing out the problem, the solution
ticked inside my brain. What seems to have happened is that the problem
came from the router's QoS Engine (Quality of Service) settings. I think
I must've set this up years ago, and promptly forgot about it. I took a
look inside it, and the speeds were set to 8 mbps down and 2 mbps up,
which were probably the speeds of a previous ISP package that I had
years ago. I set the speeds to my current service speeds (75 and 10),
and actually removed all machines from being controlled by the QoS
engine (just to be sure), so speeds are back up to normal!

Yousuf Khan

On 7/13/2020 8:53 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
So I've had this particular router for only a few years, a Dlink
DIR-850L rev B. Here's the background to the story.

Recently I'd been finding that I've been experiencing unexplained random
non-connections to websites. Not disconnections, where you would see a
message saying that connection to the Internet has gone down, just
non-connections, everything looks fine, there's no indication of the
connection dropping, but just that many requests to do something on the
Internet would time out. Even websites you're currently connected to any
clicking on them would stop responding. These time outs would last about
5 minutes at most, and then start working again.

So initially, I opened up tech support cases with my VPN provider and my
ISP. The ISP helped narrow it down to the router.Â* After I connected my
desktop directly to the modem, I tried a few tests and found that
certain network speed tests even increased in speed by a factor of 10x!

Now, I've noticed this speed test deficiency for a number of months,
even before this timeout issue. The timeout issue has only been a thing
for less than a month. I didn't think they were both related to the
router. I had blamed the ISP for this, but it looks like they had
nothing to do with it, it was my router all along. So I used this speed
test method to determine if the router was experiencing a problem or
not, from this point forward.

Afterwards, I flashed the router firmware to the latest version
available. And tried it again. I had about 5 firmware updates I had to
go through serially, as each firmware required the previous version to
be installed first. I retested the speed, and each firmware seemed to
increase the speed back up to what I should expect, what I got when I
had my desktop directly connected to the modem. This only lasted 10
minutes, and then subsequent tests had the speed tests back down to
where they used to be before.

Is it possible that the router's WAN port is switching down to a slower
speed Ethernet connection (e.g. 10 Mbps Ethernet vs. 100 or 1000 Mbps)?
This only happens during the speed tests, other activities seem to
happen without affecting the speed at all.

Also another weird thing, when I run the speed tests through a VPN
server, I get pretty close to full speed too, even though it's still
going through the same router.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Yousuf Khan

Yousuf Khan wrote:

Okay never mind all of that below. I just figured out what the
issue was. I guess in the process of writing out the problem, the
solution ticked inside my brain. What seems to have happened is
that the problem came from the router's QoS Engine (Quality of
Service) settings. I think I must've set this up years ago, and
promptly forgot about it.

When you have a major problem like that, if you cannot get the device to
work, you should try a complete reset. Blackbox Technician 101.

On 7/13/2020 11:51 AM, John Doe wrote:
Yousuf Khan wrote:

Okay never mind all of that below. I just figured out what the
issue was. I guess in the process of writing out the problem, the
solution ticked inside my brain. What seems to have happened is
that the problem came from the router's QoS Engine (Quality of
Service) settings. I think I must've set this up years ago, and
promptly forgot about it.

When you have a major problem like that, if you cannot get the device to
work, you should try a complete reset. Blackbox Technician 101.

Well, I didn't even know that it was the problem until yesterday. So
fortunately I didn't have to just do a complete reset, just figured out
the actual problem, and fixed it.

Yousuf Khan

If there is no good reason not to do a complete reset, you should do
that. Then you don't have to tax your little brain. Allegedly
"figuring it out" didn't do anything better than a complete reset.
Other settings pitfalls your little brain doesn't remember might pop
up later.


Yousuf Khan wrote:

On 7/13/2020 11:51 AM, John Doe wrote:
Yousuf Khan wrote:

Okay never mind all of that below. I just figured out what the
issue was. I guess in the process of writing out the problem, the
solution ticked inside my brain. What seems to have happened is
that the problem came from the router's QoS Engine (Quality of
Service) settings. I think I must've set this up years ago, and
promptly forgot about it.

When you have a major problem like that, if you cannot get the device to
work, you should try a complete reset. Blackbox Technician 101.

Well, I didn't even know that it was the problem until yesterday. So
fortunately I didn't have to just do a complete reset, just figured out
the actual problem, and fixed it.

Yousuf Khan

On 7/13/2020 2:04 PM, John Doe wrote:
If there is no good reason not to do a complete reset, you should do
that. Then you don't have to tax your little brain. Allegedly
"figuring it out" didn't do anything better than a complete reset.
Other settings pitfalls your little brain doesn't remember might pop
up later.

Yeah, but there is now additional knowledge in the little brain that it
didn't have before. Sometimes problems arise even if you leave
everything at default, and knowing this additional knowledge might help
in debugging even that stuff.

Yousuf Khan wrote:

So I've had this particular router for only a few years, a Dlink
DIR-850L rev B. Here's the background to the story.

Recently I'd been finding that I've been experiencing unexplained random
non-connections to websites. Not disconnections, where you would see a
message saying that connection to the Internet has gone down, just
non-connections, everything looks fine, there's no indication of the
connection dropping, but just that many requests to do something on the
Internet would time out. Even websites you're currently connected to any
clicking on them would stop responding. These time outs would last about
5 minutes at most, and then start working again.

So initially, I opened up tech support cases with my VPN provider and my
ISP. The ISP helped narrow it down to the router. After I connected my
desktop directly to the modem, I tried a few tests and found that
certain network speed tests even increased in speed by a factor of 10x!

Now, I've noticed this speed test deficiency for a number of months,
even before this timeout issue. The timeout issue has only been a thing
for less than a month. I didn't think they were both related to the
router. I had blamed the ISP for this, but it looks like they had
nothing to do with it, it was my router all along. So I used this speed
test method to determine if the router was experiencing a problem or
not, from this point forward.

Afterwards, I flashed the router firmware to the latest version
available. And tried it again. I had about 5 firmware updates I had to
go through serially, as each firmware required the previous version to
be installed first. I retested the speed, and each firmware seemed to
increase the speed back up to what I should expect, what I got when I
had my desktop directly connected to the modem. This only lasted 10
minutes, and then subsequent tests had the speed tests back down to
where they used to be before.

Is it possible that the router's WAN port is switching down to a slower
speed Ethernet connection (e.g. 10 Mbps Ethernet vs. 100 or 1000 Mbps)?
This only happens during the speed tests, other activities seem to
happen without affecting the speed at all.

Also another weird thing, when I run the speed tests through a VPN
server, I get pretty close to full speed too, even though it's still
going through the same router.

I've found routers can go flaky eventually. They have a processor that
generates heat but routers only use convection for cooling which is
ineffecient and depends on air flow which is minimal through the holes
the case. There is no fan to force an air flow. The processor gets
damaged due to heat that is not immediately dissipated. Routers should
never be stacked and the vent holes should never get blocked. In fact,
ventilation is so poor that after the warranty expires I drill out the
holes in the case to improve ventilation. The processor eventually
burns up, but it gets flaky before then. I've had Dlinks and they
lasted about 3 years. Linksys seem to last a lot longer. The only
reason why I got Dlinks was because they were cheaper and had a couple
more firewall functions than Linksys. After having to replace a few
Dlinks, I decided to stick with Linksys. Reliability is more important,
to me, than extra features that may not get used, and having to replace
sooner the Dlinks nullified their cheaper cost.

While there are plenty of online articles benchmarking and reviewing
various routers, I've not seen any that test durability since that takes
years (premature aging by deliberate overheating may not be a stable
benchmark, and doesn't represent typical use, but may represent abusive
use). Most of my experience with Linksys was before Cisco bought them.
Used to be they were tops. Now there is a large disparity in lifespan
between the high- and low-end models. Their low-end models are typical
to high- and low-end models of other brands. In any case, figure on
replacing a router at about 3 to 5 years, or soon if it goes flaky. So,
don't spend a lot on features you won't use. Computing, and especially
Internet, isn't for the dirt poor. Replacing routers is a cost of
having the privilege. At home, I don't bother using a router since one
is built into the combo router+modem that I lease from my ISP (instead
of buying one and having to buy another after 3-5 years, or so, and I
can walk into their store to swap it out).

Since a direct connect from host to modem showed no problems, and
especially with a speed boost with the direct connection, and with the
gradually flaky connections, I'd replace the router. However, the modem
is very likely a combo unit: router + modem. Unless you are subnetting,
or need more ports than the cable modem offers (assuming you aren't
using any wifi connects to it), do you really need a separate router?
If so, you can get just a wired router if the cable modem has wifi
connectivity (and you don't need those connections going through your
router). The direct connect from host to cable modem means you're using
the router integral to the cable modem, so that router is working okay.

Yousuf Khan wrote:

Okay never mind all of that below. I just figured out what the issue
was. I guess in the process of writing out the problem, the solution
ticked inside my brain. What seems to have happened is that the
problem came from the router's QoS Engine (Quality of Service)
settings. I think I must've set this up years ago, and promptly
forgot about it. I took a look inside it, and the speeds were set to
8 mbps down and 2 mbps up, which were probably the speeds of a
previous ISP package that I had years ago. I set the speeds to my
current service speeds (75 and 10), and actually removed all machines
from being controlled by the QoS engine (just to be sure), so speeds
are back up to normal!

QoS can prioritize the type of traffic. You can also up QoS priority
for a port. So, for example, VOIP connected to a port on the router
would get higher priority than other traffic. That would affect the
other ports or wifi connects to the router only during VOIP calls. If
I'm on a call, I'm far less focused on using the computer to generate
traffic from that source.

Why would you use QoS to throttle the effective bandwidth through the
router instead of getting whatever is the max provisioned in the cable
modem? You cannot get more than what they provision for bonding a
number of channels to aggregate to the contracted bandwidth that you're
paying for. Perhaps if you were using a ourter for subnetting your
intranet, and wanted one subnet to get slower bandwidth, like you don't
want the kids sucking up all the bandwidth with video downloads, might
it make sense to throttle bandwidth below anything below the max you can
get. However, in that case, I would instead set QoS to low priority on
those less critical hosts using their MAC address, and set high priority
on the VOIP adapter's port and my own host (I'm paying for it all, after
all).

Whether you use QoS depends on if you really have a need. The QoS
option is to help prioritize network traffic, but is only effective on
really crowded networks where some hosts or protocols are more important
than others. However, QoS too often slows down the important
connections, misidentifies devices or the types of protocols to
prioritize, and can cripple upload speeds. Do you really have to use
QoS at all? QoS can cause more problems than it causes. After using
VOIP for many months, I found no degenerative artificats if I disabled
QoS for the VOIP port on the router. No need to employ logic that
doesn't always work, especiall when it isn't needed. QoS isn't the same
on every router. Each brand has their own algorithms. There is no
standard QoS protocol or algorithm.

On Mon, 13 Jul 2020 09:27:34 -0400, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Okay never mind all of that below. I just figured out what the issue
was. I guess in the process of writing out the problem, the solution
ticked inside my brain. What seems to have happened is that the problem
came from the router's QoS Engine (Quality of Service) settings.

Thanks for letting us know. I'd been scratching my head to think what
might explain the symptoms you were seeing.

Hooray that the problem turned out to be one with an easy fix!

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
https://OakRoadSystems.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On 7/13/2020 5:53 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
So I've had this particular router for only a few years, a Dlink
DIR-850L rev B. Here's the background to the story.

Recently I'd been finding that I've been experiencing unexplained random
non-connections to websites. Not disconnections, where you would see a
message saying that connection to the Internet has gone down, just
non-connections, everything looks fine, there's no indication of the
connection dropping, but just that many requests to do something on the
Internet would time out. Even websites you're currently connected to any
clicking on them would stop responding. These time outs would last about
5 minutes at most, and then start working again.

So initially, I opened up tech support cases with my VPN provider and my
ISP. The ISP helped narrow it down to the router. After I connected my
desktop directly to the modem, I tried a few tests and found that
certain network speed tests even increased in speed by a factor of 10x!

Now, I've noticed this speed test deficiency for a number of months,
even before this timeout issue. The timeout issue has only been a thing
for less than a month. I didn't think they were both related to the
router. I had blamed the ISP for this, but it looks like they had
nothing to do with it, it was my router all along. So I used this speed
test method to determine if the router was experiencing a problem or
not, from this point forward.

Afterwards, I flashed the router firmware to the latest version
available. And tried it again. I had about 5 firmware updates I had to
go through serially, as each firmware required the previous version to
be installed first. I retested the speed, and each firmware seemed to
increase the speed back up to what I should expect, what I got when I
had my desktop directly connected to the modem. This only lasted 10
minutes, and then subsequent tests had the speed tests back down to
where they used to be before.

Is it possible that the router's WAN port is switching down to a slower
speed Ethernet connection (e.g. 10 Mbps Ethernet vs. 100 or 1000 Mbps)?
This only happens during the speed tests, other activities seem to
happen without affecting the speed at all.

Also another weird thing, when I run the speed tests through a VPN
server, I get pretty close to full speed too, even though it's still
going through the same router.

Yousuf Khan


I have found that routers can be easily damaged by power fluctuations.
An outage by Southern California Edison (SoCalEd) destroyed my prior
router. I submitted a claim for the cost of a new router, but they
denied it.

SoCalEd fails at any time of the year, thus not being weather-related.
When that happens, I now rush to unplug my router (and also my modem).
When power is restored, I wait a few minutes to make sure it is not
temporary before plugging in my modem and then my router.

My Netgear WNR2000v5 router is now 4.5 years old and still works very
well.


--
David E. Ross
http://www.rossde.com/

Trump describes statues of Confederate military as memorials
to heroes, representing our values. Those who took up arms
against our national government during the Civil War were
NOT heroes. They were traitors who committee treason.

"David E. Ross" wrote:

On 7/13/2020 5:53 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
So I've had this particular router for only a few years, a Dlink
DIR-850L rev B. Here's the background to the story.

Recently I'd been finding that I've been experiencing unexplained random
non-connections to websites. Not disconnections, where you would see a
message saying that connection to the Internet has gone down, just
non-connections, everything looks fine, there's no indication of the
connection dropping, but just that many requests to do something on the
Internet would time out. Even websites you're currently connected to any
clicking on them would stop responding. These time outs would last about
5 minutes at most, and then start working again.

So initially, I opened up tech support cases with my VPN provider and my
ISP. The ISP helped narrow it down to the router. After I connected my
desktop directly to the modem, I tried a few tests and found that
certain network speed tests even increased in speed by a factor of 10x!

Now, I've noticed this speed test deficiency for a number of months,
even before this timeout issue. The timeout issue has only been a thing
for less than a month. I didn't think they were both related to the
router. I had blamed the ISP for this, but it looks like they had
nothing to do with it, it was my router all along. So I used this speed
test method to determine if the router was experiencing a problem or
not, from this point forward.

Afterwards, I flashed the router firmware to the latest version
available. And tried it again. I had about 5 firmware updates I had to
go through serially, as each firmware required the previous version to
be installed first. I retested the speed, and each firmware seemed to
increase the speed back up to what I should expect, what I got when I
had my desktop directly connected to the modem. This only lasted 10
minutes, and then subsequent tests had the speed tests back down to
where they used to be before.

Is it possible that the router's WAN port is switching down to a slower
speed Ethernet connection (e.g. 10 Mbps Ethernet vs. 100 or 1000 Mbps)?
This only happens during the speed tests, other activities seem to
happen without affecting the speed at all.

Also another weird thing, when I run the speed tests through a VPN
server, I get pretty close to full speed too, even though it's still
going through the same router.

Yousuf Khan


I have found that routers can be easily damaged by power fluctuations.
An outage by Southern California Edison (SoCalEd) destroyed my prior
router. I submitted a claim for the cost of a new router, but they
denied it.

SoCalEd fails at any time of the year, thus not being weather-related.
When that happens, I now rush to unplug my router (and also my modem).
When power is restored, I wait a few minutes to make sure it is not
temporary before plugging in my modem and then my router.

My Netgear WNR2000v5 router is now 4.5 years old and still works very
well.

Since I have a UPS on my computer, I also got another (smaller one) to
use with the cable modem (and router, if I had one). That way, I have
some time to gracefully close any documents along with polishing off
anything over the network (my ISP rarely goes out because my house lost
power) and a graceful shutdown along with a clean power off rather than
spiking the stuff due to an outage.

Just because you don't have any motors running at the time of an outage,
nearby commercial businesses may be running huge motors, like to
generate 3-phase A/C. When there's a power outage, the motors don't
immediately stop and instead shove a surge back on the supply, so you
could experience a surge on an outage.

I configure the UPSes (and my gear if it has the option, like the BIOS
for the computer) to *not* restore power when the outage is over. Too
many times the power comes on, and then goes off. It's even flickered
on and off very rapidly. I don't want my gear suffering all those
spikey fluctuations.

On 7/13/2020 7:49 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2020 09:27:34 -0400, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Okay never mind all of that below. I just figured out what the issue
was. I guess in the process of writing out the problem, the solution
ticked inside my brain. What seems to have happened is that the problem
came from the router's QoS Engine (Quality of Service) settings.

Thanks for letting us know. I'd been scratching my head to think what
might explain the symptoms you were seeing.

Hooray that the problem turned out to be one with an easy fix!

Well, not an easy fix, it was hidden in plain sight, until it was
rediscovered. The major time consumer was the rediscovery of the feature.

Yousuf Khan

On 7/13/2020 6:33 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
QoS can prioritize the type of traffic. You can also up QoS priority
for a port. So, for example, VOIP connected to a port on the router
would get higher priority than other traffic. That would affect the
other ports or wifi connects to the router only during VOIP calls. If
I'm on a call, I'm far less focused on using the computer to generate
traffic from that source.

Why would you use QoS to throttle the effective bandwidth through the
router instead of getting whatever is the max provisioned in the cable
modem?

Judging by the very slow speeds that I had configured the maximum
downlink and uplink speeds (8 & 2 mbps) back then, it must have been at
a time when I had some severe bandwidth limitations! ISP prices came
down, I literally have 10x that amount of bandwidth nowadays. However,
after setting it then I had forgotten I had ever set it. Back then, the
bandwidth must have been getting severely limited with all of the
machines and devices in the house sharing the same pipe. So I had set it
up so that my own machine would get the higher priority. Now there's
obviously no need for it anymore.

I don't even remember how long ago it must've been since I had that
bandwidth level. I know I had a later speed package that was 5x as fast
as that, and since then I've gotten another doubling of speed to 10x as
fast. Never bothered looking at those settings since, since everything
seemed to work as expected. Those slow network speed tests were weird of
course, but actual bandwidth was just fine. Also I was using a VPN
regularly by then, so it looks like the QoS engine can't figure out
what's going on when there's an encrypted data flow.

I've found routers can go flaky eventually. They have a processor that
generates heat but routers only use convection for cooling which is
ineffecient and depends on air flow which is minimal through the holes
the case. There is no fan to force an air flow. The processor gets
damaged due to heat that is not immediately dissipated.

It's possible that the processor was overheating just trying to limit
the bandwidth down to 1/10th of its rated speed. It must've been like a
little beaver dam trying hold back a major river, it was getting
swamped. It must've been trying to insert time delays into the data
flow. Hopefully, this may even take care of the timeout problems I was
seeing recently.

Yousuf Khan

On Tue, 14 Jul 2020 08:49:24 -0400, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 7/13/2020 7:49 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Thanks for letting us know. I'd been scratching my head to think what
might explain the symptoms you were seeing.

Hooray that the problem turned out to be one with an easy fix!

Well, not an easy fix, it was hidden in plain sight, until it was
rediscovered. The major time consumer was the rediscovery of the feature.


Right -- I wasn't saying that the problem was easy to find, just that
the fix was easy one you found it.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
https://OakRoadSystems.com/
Shikata ga nai...