Questions about the "end of Windows 7"

On 2019-03-02, Bill in Co surly_curmudgeon@earthlink wrote:
Yup, considered it. Spent "a bit" of time using Cinnamon Lint, but for me
it's just not worth all the hassle (like in getting and customizing the
programs, etc).

Funny, those of us more accustomed to Unix-type systems and other
pre-Microsoft operating systems say much the same thing about Windows.
(I've been working with Unix since Microsoft was a tiny company selling
a BASIC language interpreter for microcomputers and not even MS-DOS
existed, let alone Windows.)

It just depends on what you're accustomed to and what your needs
are. Probably my own choice would be to work with TOPS-20 if it ran
on modern hardware.

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"Mayayana" on Sat, 2 Mar 2019 11:07:34 -0500
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:

I'm still trying to find a logical interpretation for
Mike's comment about a horse and buggy being
lean and mean, as a comparison to XP. A horse
and buggy is not lean and mean. It's clunky, slow
and expensive. To me a better comparison would
be that XP is a car made before all the bells and
warnings. My latest pickup won't let me switch
gears without the truck running. (Hopefully
I'll never need to push if off the road. I won't be
able to get into Neutral.) And it has a tantrum
if I leave the headlights on. Not unusable, but
certainly overproduced. My last 2004 pickup lasted
11 years. Almost every repair was to a sensor that
didn't exist in my earlier '86 pickup. And I actually
have a "lean and mean" pickup now. I was able
to get it with no electric windows or ignition. No
dashboard computer screen.

We're getting very close to, "I'm sorry, Dave. I
can't start until you attach your three seat belts
and check your helmet strap."

I get the warning that the Driver's door is ajar.
It is not. It has been closed. But because the car was parked
with that side in the sun, even in winter, it freaks out.

I'm just glad I can still drive with the doors "open" like that.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

"Mayayana" on Sat, 2 Mar 2019 11:07:34 -0500
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:

But I can't stick around talking about this. I need
to go buy some measuring cups. My ladyfriend
decided to throw out my old, "gross" ones and
bought me two new ones. But to save money, the
new ones are made of something like murky
polyethylene instead of clear, hard plastic. They
have no painted markings. And the faint grooved
markings are made to be fashionably inclusive.
Of 4 marking systems only one is ounces, and that's
only on one side. (Since when do Americans care
how many ml are in a recipe?) So now I have to
go find some measuring cups that are actually
usable.

Amen.

How much coffee do I need for the French press? I'm sorry, I
haven't weigh things in grams since the lab. Nor do I keep a scale
handy. There might be one in the kitchen, but it is 'her' kitchen,
and BC (Before Coffee) I'm not up for rummaging around?
I'm seriously at that stage of talking myself through the routine:
"Can brain make coffee?" (I read a cartoon where guy in jammies, was
"can brain find coffee, can brain fill with water, can brain ..." and
walks away thinking "brain can make coffee!" - but there is no caraf
under the coffee.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

"Mayayana" on Sat, 2 Mar 2019 15:46:24 -0500
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
In that world it's not your computer and you
have no business doing much of anything other
than writing Word docs and saving them to your
docs folder.

I have been using Wordperfect since it was Wordstar. After mumble
years, I know it. Of course, I have also been incrementally learning
how it works.
So far, I have found one thing Word does, which WP doesn't: break
a large brochure up into signatures. But all the rest, - ¿have you
ever tried to track down where the style change was made which is
screwing up the document?"
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

"Mike" wrote

| I have stated that older no longer works, eventually.
| XP has been inadequate for some time. The user interface is
| irrelevant if the applications aren't supported. All my XP
| systems were 32-bit. The bloated browsers like more memory
| than you can get with 32-bits.
|

I haven't seen any problems. Everything I do is
pretty much instant. I have all the software I
want. I'm still programming in VB6 and I can write
software that runs on virtually any currently
running Windows computer without needing to
install support libraries. I never come close to using
all of the 3+ GB of RAM that I have. So it might be
inadequate *for you*, but there's no reason to
extend that to everyone else. People use computers
for different things. If you want to rent Adobe's
bloated crap or run TV software then maybe you
need something newer than XP. I don't have any
such needs.

There seem to be a lot of people who run browsers
with 100+ tabs. That's just sloppiness and stupidity.
If you want to do that then you might want more
RAM. To me that's like saying you need to buy a bigger
house because your garage is full of junk.

As Ken Blake noted, there's the issue of investment.
I have a lot invested in HTAs and programming to the
Win32 API. Win10 offers nothing to improve on that,
but it does offer problems.

| Win10 is inevitable. Resistance is futile. You don't have to
| like it, you WILL submit eventually.
|

Maybe. Death is more certainly inevitable, but I
see no reason to "upgrade" to that any sooner
than I have to. You're sounding like a case
of misery loves company. Hardly a good sales
pitch for Win10.

There are various factors at play. If I have to
leave XP behind in, say, 3-5 years, the landscape
might be very different. As for Win7, it was only
recently surpassed by Win10 in terms of number
of users online. That means Win7 is probably
still the majority system for businesses by quite a
bit. That means that MS may extend the end of
support for Win7.

The big problem with MS and Win10 at this point
is that they're moving toward services. That's likely
to only get worse. Businesses know that and they
don't want it. So something will have to give. If I
eventually have no other option then Linux might also
be reasonable by then. In the meantime, I don't need
any of the complications of VMs or hard disk caddies
that you're using. Everything I need is right here, on XP.

| The user interface is a non-issue. You CAN learn the differences
| and make 10 work. Yes, it's a PITA, get over it. There is no viable
| alternative.
|

I don't even know much about the Win10 UI. What
I don't want is the spyware, restrictions, Metro
trinkets, etc. And now you've talked me out of Win10,
anyway, by talking about your VMs. It sounds like the
logic of an AppleSeed: "Macs are much better. And when
I need to actually do something, I have a VM of Windows
that only cost me $300, so I can run software other
than iTunes. It's a no-brainer. You spend an extra $3000
and you can still do your work but you have a Mac."
(I've actually seen AppleSeeds present that logic numerous
times. You question the limited software and they say,
No problem. I'm running Windows in a VM." Hellllooooooo?

On Sat, 02 Mar 2019 16:39:53 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

"Mayayana" on Sat, 2 Mar 2019 15:46:24 -0500
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
In that world it's not your computer and you
have no business doing much of anything other
than writing Word docs and saving them to your
docs folder.

I have been using Wordperfect since it was Wordstar.



WordPerfect was never WordStar. They were two different competing
products.

I bought my first personal computer in 1987. I started out using
WordStar on it, but quickly changed to WordPerfect, which I liked much
better.

I still use WordPerfect and still like it much better than all its
competition.

Ken Blake on Sat, 02 Mar 2019 18:05:21 -0700
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
On Sat, 02 Mar 2019 16:39:53 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

"Mayayana" on Sat, 2 Mar 2019 15:46:24 -0500
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
In that world it's not your computer and you
have no business doing much of anything other
than writing Word docs and saving them to your
docs folder.

I have been using Wordperfect since it was Wordstar.

WordPerfect was never WordStar. They were two different competing
products.

You're probably correct.

I bought my first personal computer in 1987. I started out using
WordStar on it, but quickly changed to WordPerfect, which I liked much
better.

I got mine bout the same time. Custom built (as were most in
those days it seems. "Ah yes, I remember the great RAM roundups in the
spring ..." but I digress) and he called to tell me they didn't have
the hard drive I wanted, but he could upgrade me. "No problem, go for
it." Note to self, do you really think we're ever going to need 40
megs of disk space?

I still use WordPerfect and still like it much better than all its
competition.
Like wise. If only for the "view codes" option.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

Roger Blake on Sun, 3 Mar 2019 00:18:15 -0000
(UTC) typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
On 2019-03-02, Bill in Co surly_curmudgeon@earthlink wrote:
Yup, considered it. Spent "a bit" of time using Cinnamon Lint, but for me
it's just not worth all the hassle (like in getting and customizing the
programs, etc).

Funny, those of us more accustomed to Unix-type systems and other
pre-Microsoft operating systems say much the same thing about Windows.
(I've been working with Unix since Microsoft was a tiny company selling
a BASIC language interpreter for microcomputers and not even MS-DOS
existed, let alone Windows.)

It just depends on what you're accustomed to and what your needs
are. Probably my own choice would be to work with TOPS-20 if it ran
on modern hardware.

And there it is: What you are used to make sense (no matter how
illogical others might see it.). And that doesn't address the whole
issue of "installed user base". Or why the keyboard is layed out the
way it is, the spelling is the way it is, and blah, blah.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

pyotr filipivich wrote:
Ken Blake on Sat, 02 Mar 2019 18:05:21 -0700
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
On Sat, 02 Mar 2019 16:39:53 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

"Mayayana" on Sat, 2 Mar 2019 15:46:24 -0500
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
In that world it's not your computer and you
have no business doing much of anything other
than writing Word docs and saving them to your
docs folder.

I have been using Wordperfect since it was Wordstar.

WordPerfect was never WordStar. They were two different competing
products.

You're probably correct.

No probably about it, he is correct. And don't forget PC Write, but I
might be dating myself. PC Write was I think written in assembly, and was
lightweight and super fast. Not as full featured as the others, of course,
but infinitely preferable to EDLIN (egads). My students don't know how good
they have it nowadays, by not having to use EDLIN to write their reports.
Or having to use a typewriter.

On 3/2/2019 10:01 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"Stan Brown" wrote

| I assure you that I have UAC turned on and I don't get "incessant
| permissions and ownership BS". Partly, I'm sure, it's because I took
| the trouble to learn how I should use UAC _before_ I started loading
| stuff on my Windows 7 laptop.

No. Because you don't have occasion to access
files outside of your assigned purview. I have UAC
disabled, but there are still problems that require
me to change ownership/permission. It's very simple:
With NTFS file restrictions there are restrictions.

The UAC setting is only part of that, designed to
minimize hassles (so as not to repeat the Vista fiasco
where no one wanted the product).

If you're happy to stay in your assigned area --
personal app data -- then you're fine. If not then
there are blocks and interruptions. How you feel
about those, again, will depend on how comfortable
you are running in corporate lackey mode or whether
you expect full control of the system.

The long and the short of it is that if you like
to enable UAC, and maybe even run an AV or
two, that's fine. But people who don't want to do
that are not wrong or stupid. (Though I realize
one of your favorite pastimes is thinking people
to be stupid.)
The real problem is
that MS makes it very difficult to choose options,
in order to save on support costs. If there were
a checkbox marked "Make me a fake admin", and
one could just uncheck it, then all would be fine.
You could run as lackey and we could drive
without a seat belt. They could even hide it behind
an intimidating "Advanced" button, as far as I'm
concerned.

The only problem I've ever had with
Windows is that pushy attitude that refuses to
allow choice without searching for days to dig
up secret, commandline incantations.


A couple of relevant things are missing from this discussion.
There are multiple versions of win10.

It's widely reported that HOME is far more difficult to tame
than PRO. I don't have any HOME systems, so can't comment further.

There are different classes of users. I always run an administrative
account because the hassle of a limited user account exceed my patience.
I trade security for ease of use.

Back in the XP days, I used "drop my rights" to run the browser and email
as limited user. I expect there are many different apps to let you do that.

On the opposite end, there are ways to run programs with elevated
privileges.
Instead of taking ownership of things I do once or rarely,
I use PowerRun to run as trusted installer. They claim that
it's the highest priority there is.

Except for stuff that is baked into windows like OFFICE,
I run as many apps as possible as portable apps.
I put all my files in a separate directory tree so I never have
any issues writing there. Stuff that automagically writes into
downloads gets moved immediately.

IT is possible to largely decouple yourself from the OS.
My win10 machine operates very much the same way that my win98 did.
It ****es me off that they keep downloading Candy Crush et al.
to my system, but if that's the worst issue in my life, I'm
truly blessed...

Mike wrote:
On 3/2/2019 10:01 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"Stan Brown" wrote

I assure you that I have UAC turned on and I don't get "incessant
permissions and ownership BS". Partly, I'm sure, it's because I took
the trouble to learn how I should use UAC _before_ I started loading
stuff on my Windows 7 laptop.

No. Because you don't have occasion to access
files outside of your assigned purview. I have UAC
disabled, but there are still problems that require
me to change ownership/permission. It's very simple:
With NTFS file restrictions there are restrictions.

The UAC setting is only part of that, designed to
minimize hassles (so as not to repeat the Vista fiasco
where no one wanted the product).

If you're happy to stay in your assigned area --
personal app data -- then you're fine. If not then
there are blocks and interruptions. How you feel
about those, again, will depend on how comfortable
you are running in corporate lackey mode or whether
you expect full control of the system.

The long and the short of it is that if you like
to enable UAC, and maybe even run an AV or
two, that's fine. But people who don't want to do
that are not wrong or stupid. (Though I realize
one of your favorite pastimes is thinking people
to be stupid.)
The real problem is
that MS makes it very difficult to choose options,
in order to save on support costs. If there were
a checkbox marked "Make me a fake admin", and
one could just uncheck it, then all would be fine.
You could run as lackey and we could drive
without a seat belt. They could even hide it behind
an intimidating "Advanced" button, as far as I'm
concerned.

The only problem I've ever had with
Windows is that pushy attitude that refuses to
allow choice without searching for days to dig
up secret, commandline incantations.


A couple of relevant things are missing from this discussion.
There are multiple versions of win10.

It's widely reported that HOME is far more difficult to tame
than PRO. I don't have any HOME systems, so can't comment further.

There are different classes of users. I always run an administrative
account because the hassle of a limited user account exceed my patience.
I trade security for ease of use.

Back in the XP days, I used "drop my rights" to run the browser and email
as limited user. I expect there are many different apps to let you do
that.
On the opposite end, there are ways to run programs with elevated
privileges.
Instead of taking ownership of things I do once or rarely,
I use PowerRun to run as trusted installer. They claim that
it's the highest priority there is.

Except for stuff that is baked into windows like OFFICE,
I run as many apps as possible as portable apps.
I put all my files in a separate directory tree so I never have
any issues writing there. Stuff that automagically writes into
downloads gets moved immediately.

IT is possible to largely decouple yourself from the OS.

It depends entirely on what you are doing. So it may be possible for some,
but not so for others. But admitely perhaps so, at least for most users
simply running their programs.

On 3/2/2019 7:02 PM, Bill in Co wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote:
Ken Blake on Sat, 02 Mar 2019 18:05:21 -0700
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
On Sat, 02 Mar 2019 16:39:53 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

"Mayayana" on Sat, 2 Mar 2019 15:46:24 -0500
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
In that world it's not your computer and you
have no business doing much of anything other
than writing Word docs and saving them to your
docs folder.

I have been using Wordperfect since it was Wordstar.

WordPerfect was never WordStar. They were two different competing
products.

You're probably correct.

No probably about it, he is correct. And don't forget PC Write, but I
might be dating myself. PC Write was I think written in assembly, and was
lightweight and super fast. Not as full featured as the others, of course,
but infinitely preferable to EDLIN (egads). My students don't know how good
they have it nowadays, by not having to use EDLIN to write their reports.
Or having to use a typewriter.


You ain't lived until you've had to walk 100 yards across the building
to get a printout to see if your text formatting was was you wanted.
Those who popped out of the womb with an iPad in one hand will never
appreciate what they have.

"pyotr filipivich" wrote

| How much coffee do I need for the French press? I'm sorry, I
| haven't weigh things in grams since the lab.

I use an old Chock Full of Nuts scoop for that.
One scoop per cup. I think it's 2 T. Or maybe just
1. I keep forgetting.

"pyotr filipivich" wrote

| So far, I have found one thing Word does, which WP doesn't: break
| a large brochure up into signatures. But all the rest, - ¿have you
| ever tried to track down where the style change was made which is
| screwing up the document?"

You lost me there. I used to use WordPro from a magazine
CD. Then I switched to OO and now Libre Office. But I
only use it a bit, to write out receipts, contracts, bills, etc.
I made the template files years ago, so I've never really had
to master office programs.

Mayayana wrote:
"pyotr filipivich" wrote

So far, I have found one thing Word does, which WP doesn't: break
a large brochure up into signatures. But all the rest, - ¿have you
ever tried to track down where the style change was made which is
screwing up the document?"

You lost me there. I used to use WordPro from a magazine
CD. Then I switched to OO and now Libre Office. But I
only use it a bit, to write out receipts, contracts, bills, etc.
I made the template files years ago, so I've never really had
to master office programs.

Did you ever consider the much leaner Kingston Office (aka WPS Office now),
or Softmaker Free Office? They are both a LOT less bloated then either
OpenOffice or LibreOffice, but may not have everything you need, not sure.
Just wondering.