I need a usb3 to rs232 adapter that WORKS RIGHT

On 09/08/2019 14.36, nospam wrote:
In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:

At high baud rates, there are two flow control
schemes, and you have to select one of them.

flow control exists at all bitrates and no need to select anything.

Flow control always exists, but which one you choose is crucial. Has to
be the exact same one as the machine at the other end uses. The "no need
to select anything" comes from the usual assumption that all machines
(modems) came with the same settings - except the one that didn't.

no, it comes from the assumption that the cnc software knows what the
cnc hardware needs.

Sometimes true. In many cases, it is user configurable, even by jumpers.

In the past, high speed rs232 would require hardware flow control: the
"in-band" method uses bandwith, after all. I wonder how well can an usb
converter handle it. Badly if is a three wire thing.

don't use a 3 wire cable.

9 line wire doesn't do a thing if the converter only handles three.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 09/08/2019 17.32, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Char Jackson wrote:
[...]
All of the discussion around connection speed, latency, and 'direct
control' is misguided because CNC machines don't work that way. You
don't tell a CNC machine to 'move along the X axis until I tell you to
stop". You tell it to move in a specific direction for a specific
distance and it stops by itself when it completes that request. You're
not driving the thing in real time, whether from its own control panel
or remotely. You're simply giving it a set of instructions.

Which needs to be processed or/and buffered. If that processing - by
the receiving device - is slower than the sending speed (baud rate)
or/and the (hardware or/and software) buffering is not capable of
accomodate all the sent data in one go, some kind of flow control is
needed. Which is the point we (YTIW) are trying to get accross.

You need flow control way earlier than you hit the internal buffering
problem :-)

Note that I said "hardware or/and software buffering".

The way rs232 hardware works is, the receiving end gets one byte, it
tells the sending side to wait till the CPU inside has read that byte.

What you describe is software buffering (on the receiving side). So
yes, *if* the software buffering on the receiving side can't keep up,
flow control is needed to prevent data loss. However if the software
buffer is large enough and the interrupt response is fast enough, flow
control in so needed.

However in Windows interrupt latency is best measured with a calendar
:-), so in practice only hardware buffering is relevant.

This is done in hardware - and originally, with a cable going end to
end. If that line does not exist, then it is done in-band, impacting
speed, but still does not need CPU intervention IIRC.

Ie, it should be handled by the firmware inside the USB-RS232 firmware,
if it is not crap.

Yes, these adapters should - and do - implement hardware buffering and
hardware/firmware flow control (Xon/Xoff, RTS/CTS, etc.).

On 9 Aug 2019 17:14:17 GMT, Frank Slootweg
wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On 9 Aug 2019 12:11:41 GMT, Frank Slootweg
wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2019 16:08:33 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Frank Slootweg
wrote:

I have a customer with a Mac and a w10 laptop and a CNC machine
with an RS232 (only) interface. He wants to be able to send
text files to the CNC machine. The Mac has USB3 and Thunderbolt
interfaces on the back. The W10 laptop has usb3 ports.

Now I could go the the various accessories sites and get
such an adapter, but they are typically trash and don't
work for beans. The customer did state this was his
experience. (Mine too.)

Any one know of a USB3 to RS232 adapter THAT ACTUALLY
WORKS RIGHT?

Very likely the problem is not that the adapter does not work, but
that such adapters are normally intended to drive peripherals such as
printers, not CNC machines.

the usb-serial adapters i've used provide a standard rs232 port, which
i used to talk to the console ports on old upses, a managed switch and
a gps, among other devices.

+1

My team and I use usb-serial adapters every day to administer
Enterprise-grade networking equipment via their Console ports. The brand
of the adapter doesn't seem to matter at all. They all just work. I've
never picked one up that didn't work. It's just a standard rs232 port.
There's no special protocol that the adapter itself needs to understand
or support.

Of course there are protocols,
snip

Of course there are the standard serial protocols, but no special
protocols that the adapter itself needs to understand or support.

Sigh!
snip

I give up. To the OP's question regarding whether there's a usb-serial
adapter that actually works, I would say yes, in my experience they all
do. I've used many of them over the years and never had an issue. I use
them frequently to do my work.

Char Jackson wrote:


I give up. To the OP's question regarding whether there's a usb-serial
adapter that actually works, I would say yes, in my experience they all
do. I've used many of them over the years and never had an issue. I use
them frequently to do my work.

The usual adapters should be full featured
enough for the job. Any "surprises" can be
blamed on the CNC machine.

I keep a bag filled with different RS232
connectors and adapters, just so I can
"solve any serial problem". I used to use
that bag of stuff at work, because we
never seemed to have all the necessary stuff
in one place at work. So I built up
my own collection, one piece at a time.
There's gender benders, null modem, 9-25,
25-9, and so on. On a typical usage in the
computer room here, there could be one
cable for length, and three dongles in a row
to give the adaptation needed. I think PC to PC,
needs the null modem dongle.

Paul

Char Jackson wrote:
On 9 Aug 2019 17:14:17 GMT, Frank Slootweg
wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On 9 Aug 2019 12:11:41 GMT, Frank Slootweg
wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2019 16:08:33 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Frank Slootweg
wrote:

I have a customer with a Mac and a w10 laptop and a CNC machine
with an RS232 (only) interface. He wants to be able to send
text files to the CNC machine. The Mac has USB3 and Thunderbolt
interfaces on the back. The W10 laptop has usb3 ports.

Now I could go the the various accessories sites and get
such an adapter, but they are typically trash and don't
work for beans. The customer did state this was his
experience. (Mine too.)

Any one know of a USB3 to RS232 adapter THAT ACTUALLY
WORKS RIGHT?

Very likely the problem is not that the adapter does not work, but
that such adapters are normally intended to drive peripherals such as
printers, not CNC machines.

the usb-serial adapters i've used provide a standard rs232 port, which
i used to talk to the console ports on old upses, a managed switch and
a gps, among other devices.

+1

My team and I use usb-serial adapters every day to administer
Enterprise-grade networking equipment via their Console ports. The brand
of the adapter doesn't seem to matter at all. They all just work. I've
never picked one up that didn't work. It's just a standard rs232 port.
There's no special protocol that the adapter itself needs to understand
or support.

Of course there are protocols,
snip

Of course there are the standard serial protocols, but no special
protocols that the adapter itself needs to understand or support.

Sigh!
snip

I give up. To the OP's question regarding whether there's a usb-serial
adapter that actually works, I would say yes, in my experience they all
do. I've used many of them over the years and never had an issue. I use
them frequently to do my work.

Don't worry. We actually agree that the adapters *do* work. *If* there
is an issue, most of the time it will be a (driver) software/
configuration issue (assuming that the CNC software on the computer is
functional/non-broken)..

The OP did not say anything about that part and has not responded
since.

So the *question* has been answered. Solving the *actual problem*,
needs more information, i.e. what does "they [USB-RS232 adapters] are
typically trash and don't work for beans" *really* mean? :-)

Thanks for sharing your experience. While this *is* Usenet, the odd
positive experience can be tolerated once in a while! :-)

Paul wrote:
Char Jackson wrote:

I give up. To the OP's question regarding whether there's a usb-serial
adapter that actually works, I would say yes, in my experience they all
do. I've used many of them over the years and never had an issue. I use
them frequently to do my work.

The usual adapters should be full featured
enough for the job. Any "surprises" can be
blamed on the CNC machine.

rant

IMO, in this day and age, a CNC machine using RS232 is to blame, full
stop.

Using RS232 is a feeble attempt to dodge/divert the responsibility of
writing - OS dependent - device drivers. By using a RS232 (or parallel)
port, the CNC vendor can pretend that driver software is "Their
problem!", while they can't - or at least it's much harder - for other,
more modern, interfaces.

Device makers have been pulling this stunt for decades. It didn't work
then and still doesn't.

/rant

[Yes, I *do* feel better now! :-)]

On 8/8/19 11:53 AM, T wrote:
Hi All,

I have a customer with a Mac and a w10 laptop and a CNC machine
with an RS232 (only) interface.Â* He wants to be able to send
text files to the CNC machine.Â* The Mac has USB3 and Thunderbolt
interfaces on the back.Â* The W10 laptop has usb3 ports.

Now I could go the the various accessories sites and get
such an adapter, but they are typically trash and don't
work for beans.Â* The customer did state this was his
experience.Â* (Mine too.)

Any one know of a USB3 to RS232 adapter THAT ACTUALLY
WORKS RIGHT?

Many thanks,

-T

Hi All,

Thank you all for the wonderful responses!

I am going to try a star tech

https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapt...ble~ICUSB2321F

as it has a FTDI chipset. And FTDI chipsets also get recommended
over at the Apple support forum (as well as here).

By the way, you guys realize that admitting you know RS232
means you are all old farts? Under 50 has no idea what you are
talking about. It takes a lot of years to become a proper
old fart. What me??? An old fart too??? I am not!!! I am
a curmudgeon. Still have too may teeth to be a proper
old fart! (That is a changing.)

-T

Why am I writing you guys again? YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
Is Sparky still in the Navy? Is Teddy still president?
I hate when this happens. I have a lawn?

On 8/9/19 10:16 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 09/08/2019 14.36, nospam wrote:
In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:

At high baud rates, there are two flow control
schemes, and you have to select one of them.

flow control exists at all bitrates and no need to select anything.

Flow control always exists, but which one you choose is crucial. Has to
be the exact same one as the machine at the other end uses. The "no need
to select anything" comes from the usual assumption that all machines
(modems) came with the same settings - except the one that didn't.

no, it comes from the assumption that the cnc software knows what the
cnc hardware needs.

Sometimes true. In many cases, it is user configurable, even by jumpers.

In the past, high speed rs232 would require hardware flow control: the
"in-band" method uses bandwith, after all. I wonder how well can an usb
converter handle it. Badly if is a three wire thing.

don't use a 3 wire cable.

9 line wire doesn't do a thing if the converter only handles three.



I would be surprised if this ting ran higher than 2400 baud

On 8/8/19 5:00 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
That's not always the case. It would help to know what the machine is
and whether the problem is the downloading of a control program or the
direct control of the machine.

This one only accesses the file system on the CNC machine.
You can basically only upload and download text files.

On Fri, 09 Aug 2019 10:22:44 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 10:22:08 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
wrote:

On 09/08/2019 09.37, Char Jackson wrote:
On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 08:44:50 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
wrote:

On 09/08/2019 03.32, Char Jackson wrote:
On Fri, 09 Aug 2019 12:00:56 +1200, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Aug 2019 16:26:28 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

A CNC machine is essentially a plotter. You're sending a series of
commands that ends with a command to execute. After that, the machine
goes to work. There's no real time control, at least not that I've ever
seen. Once executed, the machine goes to work and lets you know when it
has finished. It's not like you're sitting there, trying to guide it
with a joystick.

That's not always the case.

What's not always the case?

It would help to know what the machine is
and whether the problem is the downloading of a control program or the
direct control of the machine.

If it's a CNC machine, as it was described up thread, there is no
'direct control'. Is there a CNC machine that isn't controlled by a
computer? If so, would it still be considered to be CNC?

It depends if it is programmed by the computer, then the machine runs
the program on its own, like a plotter would do, or if its directly
controlled by the computer.

Either way, there is no 'direct control'. The distinction you're making
is the difference between sending all of the movement commands before
the program is executed or whether the commands are sent and executed
one at a time. Are we still talking about CNC machines or has the
discussion morphed?


The point is that direct control of a CNC machine over USB-RS232
converter _might_ be problematic.

There is no 'direct control', so there is no problem.

There is, on the cheapest machine. They can't do anything without
specific individual instructions being fed down the line (one at a
time) from an attached computer.


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes and those who don't. I belong to the second class.

Eric Stevens

On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 10:31:11 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
wrote:

On 09/08/2019 10.15, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2019 20:32:40 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Aug 2019 12:00:56 +1200, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Aug 2019 16:26:28 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

A CNC machine is essentially a plotter. You're sending a series of
commands that ends with a command to execute. After that, the machine
goes to work. There's no real time control, at least not that I've ever
seen. Once executed, the machine goes to work and lets you know when it
has finished. It's not like you're sitting there, trying to guide it
with a joystick.

That's not always the case.

What's not always the case?

It would help to know what the machine is
and whether the problem is the downloading of a control program or the
direct control of the machine.

If it's a CNC machine, as it was described up thread, there is no
'direct control'. Is there a CNC machine that isn't controlled by a
computer? If so, would it still be considered to be CNC?

In other words you don't know.

FYI many (most) cnc machines incorporate their own computer which
controls the machine. The machine can be controlled from the built in
control panel or (frequentlY) from an external computer connected via
variously RS232 or ethernet. Such external control is never direct but
always via the machine's own software. In serious industrial machines
the machining program is always loaded in from outside.

Ok. Thanks.
Then the speed (the latency) of the connection is of no consequence.

Thats an example of the kind of matter which gave rise to my original
question to which you took exception. Inspaite of all the sound and
fury, we still don't know.


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes and those who don't. I belong to the second class.

Eric Stevens

On Fri, 09 Aug 2019 10:18:53 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Aug 2019 20:15:44 +1200, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Aug 2019 20:32:40 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Aug 2019 12:00:56 +1200, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Aug 2019 16:26:28 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

A CNC machine is essentially a plotter. You're sending a series of
commands that ends with a command to execute. After that, the machine
goes to work. There's no real time control, at least not that I've ever
seen. Once executed, the machine goes to work and lets you know when it
has finished. It's not like you're sitting there, trying to guide it
with a joystick.

That's not always the case.

What's not always the case?

It would help to know what the machine is
and whether the problem is the downloading of a control program or the
direct control of the machine.

If it's a CNC machine, as it was described up thread, there is no
'direct control'. Is there a CNC machine that isn't controlled by a
computer? If so, would it still be considered to be CNC?

In other words you don't know.

Those last two questions were rhetorical.

FYI many (most) cnc machines incorporate their own computer which
controls the machine. The machine can be controlled from the built in
control panel or (frequentlY) from an external computer connected via
variously RS232 or ethernet. Such external control is never direct but
always via the machine's own software. In serious industrial machines
the machining program is always loaded in from outside.

Quoting me: "...there is no direct control..."
Quoting your c/p: "...Such external control is never direct..."

It looks like you're catching on.


And you are not (incidentally my apologies to Carlos E.R. I confused
him with you). I said "many(most) cnc machines". Some of the cheapest
machines require direct control from a PC or the like. For all we know
the question may have arisen from the attempts of a struggling amatuer
to get such a machine up and running. Someone working with a serious
machine is less likely to be struggling with this type of problem.

All of the discussion around connection speed, latency, and 'direct
control' is misguided because CNC machines don't work that way. You
don't tell a CNC machine to 'move along the X axis until I tell you to
stop". You tell it to move in a specific direction for a specific
distance and it stops by itself when it completes that request. You're
not driving the thing in real time, whether from its own control panel
or remotely. You're simply giving it a set of instructions.

You may missed out the bits in between which while they most probably
occur inside the CNC machine amy, in the most basic of devices, occur
in an associated PC.


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes and those who don't. I belong to the second class.

Eric Stevens

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes and those who don't. I belong to the second class.

Eric Stevens

and a third class who doesn't know what a sig delimiter is.

In article , wrote:



I would be surprised if this ting ran higher than 2400 baud

most likely it's 9600/8/1/n, maybe 19.2k

On 2019-08-09 5:51 p.m., T wrote:
On 8/8/19 11:53 AM, T wrote:
Hi All,

I have a customer with a Mac and a w10 laptop and a CNC machine
with an RS232 (only) interface.Â* He wants to be able to send
text files to the CNC machine.Â* The Mac has USB3 and Thunderbolt
interfaces on the back.Â* The W10 laptop has usb3 ports.

Now I could go the the various accessories sites and get
such an adapter, but they are typically trash and don't
work for beans.Â* The customer did state this was his
experience.Â* (Mine too.)

Any one know of a USB3 to RS232 adapter THAT ACTUALLY
WORKS RIGHT?

Many thanks,

-T

Hi All,

Thank you all for the wonderful responses!

I am going to try a star tech

https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapt...ble~ICUSB2321F


as it has a FTDI chipset.Â* And FTDI chipsets also get recommended
over at the Apple support forum (as well as here).

By the way, you guys realize that admitting you know RS232
means you are all old farts?Â* Under 50 has no idea what you are
talking about.Â* It takes a lot of years to become a proper
old fart.Â* What me???Â* An old fart too???Â* I am not!!!Â* I am
a curmudgeon.Â* Still have too may teeth to be a proper
old fart!Â* (That is a changing.)

-T

Why am I writing you guys again?Â* YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
Is Sparky still in the Navy?Â* Is Teddy still president?
I hate when this happens.Â* I have a lawn?




This may help you with my vintage, Many Many moons ago I had to build
an rs232 to 20 milliamp current loop adapter cable to run an RO35
teletype printer.

Rene