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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist



 
 
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  #61  
Old December 27th 03, 02:26 PM
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the software" or is
that support if any comes from the OEM and not Microsoft.
The real fault may be that the customer is not informed why the OEM is
cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes many consumers
when they think they see a bargain and a not so informative
salesperson.
Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could be modified
to show it, however the package is not always seen by the consumer.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...oups/setup.asp
Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.


"D.Currie" wrote in message
...
Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs

have to
support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell OEM. As a

small
system builder, my customers can come in and ask me questions

face-to-face,
and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get plenty of calls

from people
who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get an answer.

Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,

and have
no intention or ability to answer questions.

I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.

But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to give

the
technical support they're supposed to. They aren't footing the cost

for
proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which is fine for

the
customer until they need help. And in the meantime, I'm providing

free tech
support in the hopes that I'll get work from that person in the

meantime.


Ads
  #62  
Old December 27th 03, 02:27 PM
D.Currie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

The problem may also be that not everyone who sells OEM software has an OEM
agreement with MS. Somewhere I have a document that says what I'm supposed
to do for the end user, and that includes providing support. Among other
things.

OTOH if a person buys OEM software independent of a system, he is probably
considered the system builder, and the seller is acting as a distributor
(albeit not one of MSs authorized distributors; another problem). As an OEM
with an agreement with MS, I get support from MS, but that individual who
buys one copy on the 'net doesn't get support as he's not in the program.

Another thing is that some people don't know where the line is between
technical support and training. And they aren't clear where they should go
for support, so they look in all the wrong places and get frustrated. Many
people think the system builder should be responsible for everything that
goes into the computer, and are quite surprised when Dell or whoever won't
troubleshoot their printers or games or obscure software.

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message
...
But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the software" or is
that support if any comes from the OEM and not Microsoft.
The real fault may be that the customer is not informed why the OEM is
cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes many consumers
when they think they see a bargain and a not so informative
salesperson.
Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could be modified
to show it, however the package is not always seen by the consumer.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...oups/setup.asp
Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.


"D.Currie" wrote in message
...
Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs

have to
support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell OEM. As a

small
system builder, my customers can come in and ask me questions

face-to-face,
and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get plenty of calls

from people
who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get an answer.

Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,

and have
no intention or ability to answer questions.

I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.

But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to give

the
technical support they're supposed to. They aren't footing the cost

for
proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which is fine for

the
customer until they need help. And in the meantime, I'm providing

free tech
support in the hopes that I'll get work from that person in the

meantime.




  #63  
Old December 27th 03, 02:27 PM
Bill Drake
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

D.Currie wrote:
"Bill Drake" wrote...
D.Currie wrote:
"Bill Drake" wrote...
D.Currie wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs
have to support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell
OEM.

There is no way to enforce this rule. It is always possible for
the unethical provider to come up with a plausible excuse for
non-support.


As a small system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
questions face-to-face, and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I
also get plenty of calls from people who have bought from the big
guys, and they can't get an answer.

And as a result, the unethical providers are dumping their support
costs on your back -- increasing their profits at your expense.
Their shareholder dividends are the direct result of your altruism
-- and this is a very conscious and deliberate policy on their part
IMO.



Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,
and have no intention or ability to answer questions.

See above. Another example of the same. You've just described
simply a more-obvious example...


I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.

No. Many customers are just as unethical as the abovementioned
providers. They'll rape you and leave you freezing -- pay you 5
cents on the dollar and scream with outrage at that -- and drive
your business into the ground.

Save your time and energy for clients who come to you straight-out
looking for value and willing to pay a fair price in the first
place. These are the only people worth your time and energy.



But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to
give the technical support they're supposed to. They aren't
footing the cost for proper support, so they sell their stuff
cheap, which is fine for the customer until they need help. And
in the meantime,
I'm providing free tech support in the hopes that I'll get work
from that person in the meantime.

You're a fool to give these people the time of day.


The advice I offer on the phone costs me as little as what
responding on these newsgroups does. And the ones on the
phone have the potential of becoming customers.


If you are successful at this, you will find yourself spending more
and more time giving "free" advice to these people. As long as
you *have* free time -- this is fine.


I've owned the store for 6 years, and I've managed to work it out.
Some things can't easily be solved over the phone, and some people
should not stick their hands inside their computers. In six years,
I've had very few people who simply waste my time, and if I have
other things that need to be done, that's what I do. If it's a
problem that intrigues me, or a person the I enjoy helping, it's my
time to waste.


Agreed. And if you've managed to stay in business for 6 years,
then obviously you've managed to find a way to balance your time
between altruistic behaviour and stuff that pays the bills.



It's when you get busy and start saying things like "I can't help you
now" -- that you will find there are unreasonable and loutish clients
who are simply rude and demanding -- even when you are being a
"nice guy".


I've done that. No one's gotten rude or demanding.


My own personal experience in the business -- along with the experience
of many of the dealers with whom I associate -- has been the complete
opposite. The vast majority of people in the Computer Industry I've
talked to in any of the major metropolitan centres in North America tell
me monotonously-similar stories.

I am *really* pleased this hasn't happened to you. I am also *very*
surprised this hasn't happened to you. All things considered -- I'd move
wherever you are in a nanosecond and work there happily... grin


Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come in for
service after calling, since some people, even with instruction,
are skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And
I have quite a number of customers who ignore their warranty
and bring the computer to me for repair. Or I diagnose they
problem, they get parts under warranty, and I replace them.
So it's not all bad.


Fine. They're paying you for this service.


And many have come to me because they called first, and I offered
some simple suggestions. If it was something they couldn't do, or didn't
work, they bring the work to me. It doesn't always happen, but we
also get a lot of referrals from those sorts of people because we're
not rude when people call with questions.


And that's simply good business practice. So, if that's good business
practice, then why don't Dell, Gateway, HP, IBM, or MS follow those
procedures? Because they cost more money than dumping the process
on the backs of others.

And this simply encourages an irresponsible attitude on the part of
*everyone* in the business -- and that irresponsible attitude turns
broken hardware and software into a way of life that makes computers
so frustrating and unrewarding that *fewer and fewer* use PCs willingly
anymore.

And that's why we're in this slump.


As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get
all of the ones who don't provide support, but they could crack
down on the most blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be
easy for them to muscle companies like Dell and Gateway and
the like. When people call for support and day, "Dell won't help
me" they've got the evidence right there.

Of course, they won't do it, but it would be nice.


I noticed you didn't quote the further paragraphs in my previous
post. Nor did you comment on that. Yet you made the above
remark. I find that sad.


I snipped after Mike B's header as that seemed to be a response to
what he said. Why you find that sad, I don't know, as now that I've
looked back on it, you snipped all of his post and responded to
Testy's one line. As far as my not commenting on it, this "marketeer"
thing seems to be one of your personal hotspots, which is fine. But I
tend to respond to things that either I can help with or that I have
a comment about because it interests and/or amuses me.

I'm sure that you also pick and choose what you respond to.


Agreed.



The "Of course, they won't do it" is *intimately" tied into the whole
airhead marketing-mentality avoidance-of-responsibility mindset
that dumps marketeer-created problems into other people's laps.

And your high-minded "noble" attitude to the problem is part of
the reason this silly nonsense continues.


Oh, I doubt that I'm being noble at all. I help non-customers on the
phone because I find that it's a good way to turn a percentage of
them into customers. If I look at what it costs me to answers those
questions vs. what it costs me for print advertising, then look at
the number of customers each gets me, the "being nice to people"
on the phone gets me more customers.


No problem. Sound business practice. See above for why so many
in the industry don't follow the practice -- and the inevitable consequence.


As far as answering questions on the newsgroup, it's a great way to
learn what sorts of problems other people are having on their
computers, so that when I run across the same issue with a customer's
computer, I have some ideas what to look for. It's certainly more
interesting than memorizing the knowledge base.


And we're all here on the newsgroups because our collective knowledge
is *way* more powerful than the knowledgebase will *ever* be. And
everybody knows it. And that's why I participate in discussions like this
one -- because *this* is how we gather the consensus required to change
the world.




Marketeers need to be ground up, spit out and pounded into
the ground for turning this business into a circus that only a fool
could love.


Well, you've already called me a fool, so there you have it.


You've missed my point. I said you were a fool if you wasted your
time dealing with the ungrateful and those who would pay you 5 cents
on the dollar for your work.

I stand behind that statement.


From what you've told me -- you have somehow avoided that trap.
Good for you.

By a combination of good luck, good management and good
location -- your client-base is remarkably free of the kind of
wasteful freeloaders that drive many well-intentioned businesses
into the ground. This is great -- and I wish you well.



Best I can do for now. tm


Bill



  #64  
Old December 27th 03, 02:27 PM
Jim Macklin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

I bought a Microsoft Windows XP Pro (OEM) from New Egg. I
also bought a motherboard and CPU...I am my own tech
support. The OEM XP Pro was $128, the mobo and CPU was
about $200.
My XP CD says Microsoft on it and it is legal. Unless you
have a Dell, installing a Dell branded OEM CD on another
computer is not legal.

The information is available, but people don't want to read.


"D.Currie" wrote in message
...
| The problem may also be that not everyone who sells OEM
software has an OEM
| agreement with MS. Somewhere I have a document that says
what I'm supposed
| to do for the end user, and that includes providing
support. Among other
| things.
|
| OTOH if a person buys OEM software independent of a
system, he is probably
| considered the system builder, and the seller is acting as
a distributor
| (albeit not one of MSs authorized distributors; another
problem). As an OEM
| with an agreement with MS, I get support from MS, but that
individual who
| buys one copy on the 'net doesn't get support as he's not
in the program.
|
| Another thing is that some people don't know where the
line is between
| technical support and training. And they aren't clear
where they should go
| for support, so they look in all the wrong places and get
frustrated. Many
| people think the system builder should be responsible for
everything that
| goes into the computer, and are quite surprised when Dell
or whoever won't
| troubleshoot their printers or games or obscure software.
|
| "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote
in message
| ...
| But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the
software" or is
| that support if any comes from the OEM and not
Microsoft.
| The real fault may be that the customer is not informed
why the OEM is
| cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
| Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes
many consumers
| when they think they see a bargain and a not so
informative
| salesperson.
| Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could
be modified
| to show it, however the package is not always seen by
the consumer.
|
| --
| Jupiter Jones [MVP]
| An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
|
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...oups/setup.asp
| Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
|
|
| "D.Currie" wrote in message
| ...
| Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the
rule that OEMs
| have to
| support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to
sell OEM. As a
| small
| system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
questions
| face-to-face,
| and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get
plenty of calls
| from people
| who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get
an answer.
|
| Then there are the people who sell the oem software
with trinkets,
| and have
| no intention or ability to answer questions.
|
| I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even
the not-yet
| customers -- I figure some day I will get their
business.
|
| But it does irritate me that others shirk the
responsibility to give
| the
| technical support they're supposed to. They aren't
footing the cost
| for
| proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which
is fine for
| the
| customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
I'm providing
| free tech
| support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
person in the
| meantime.
|
|
|
|


  #65  
Old December 27th 03, 02:28 PM
D.Currie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Bill Drake" wrote in message
snip

I've owned the store for 6 years, and I've managed to work it out.
Some things can't easily be solved over the phone, and some people
should not stick their hands inside their computers. In six years,
I've had very few people who simply waste my time, and if I have
other things that need to be done, that's what I do. If it's a
problem that intrigues me, or a person the I enjoy helping, it's my
time to waste.


Agreed. And if you've managed to stay in business for 6 years,
then obviously you've managed to find a way to balance your time
between altruistic behaviour and stuff that pays the bills.



It's when you get busy and start saying things like "I can't help you
now" -- that you will find there are unreasonable and loutish clients
who are simply rude and demanding -- even when you are being a
"nice guy".


I've done that. No one's gotten rude or demanding.


My own personal experience in the business -- along with the experience
of many of the dealers with whom I associate -- has been the complete
opposite. The vast majority of people in the Computer Industry I've
talked to in any of the major metropolitan centres in North America tell
me monotonously-similar stories.

I am *really* pleased this hasn't happened to you. I am also *very*
surprised this hasn't happened to you. All things considered -- I'd move
wherever you are in a nanosecond and work there happily... grin


Well, maybe that's the key. I live in a small town. There is a field with
cows next to the Home Depot. People tend to be very friendly, and they
absolutely HATE the idea of driving to the next town for anything. They like
doing business with small, local shops.

I moved here from Chicago and thought I'd landed in Mayberry


Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come in for
service after calling, since some people, even with instruction,
are skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And
I have quite a number of customers who ignore their warranty
and bring the computer to me for repair. Or I diagnose they
problem, they get parts under warranty, and I replace them.
So it's not all bad.

Fine. They're paying you for this service.


And many have come to me because they called first, and I offered
some simple suggestions. If it was something they couldn't do, or didn't
work, they bring the work to me. It doesn't always happen, but we
also get a lot of referrals from those sorts of people because we're
not rude when people call with questions.


And that's simply good business practice. So, if that's good business
practice, then why don't Dell, Gateway, HP, IBM, or MS follow those
procedures? Because they cost more money than dumping the process
on the backs of others.


Well, that tide may be turning. According to Microsoft, more PCs with
Windows are sold by small system builders than by the big guys. And we're
gaining. And if you wanted a computer with Linux or Windows 98, the ONLY
place toi get it the way you want it may be a small shop. Also, the way I
figure it, a lot of people will buy their first computer online from Dell,
or from Wal-Mart, but as soon as they need service, they re-evaulate, and
the next computer is from a small shop. I'm betting that a whole of of
people who bought HPs and didn't get any CDs will think long and hard before
they buy another HP.


And this simply encourages an irresponsible attitude on the part of
*everyone* in the business -- and that irresponsible attitude turns
broken hardware and software into a way of life that makes computers
so frustrating and unrewarding that *fewer and fewer* use PCs willingly
anymore.

And that's why we're in this slump.


As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get
all of the ones who don't provide support, but they could crack
down on the most blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be
easy for them to muscle companies like Dell and Gateway and
the like. When people call for support and day, "Dell won't help
me" they've got the evidence right there.

Of course, they won't do it, but it would be nice.

I noticed you didn't quote the further paragraphs in my previous
post. Nor did you comment on that. Yet you made the above
remark. I find that sad.


I snipped after Mike B's header as that seemed to be a response to
what he said. Why you find that sad, I don't know, as now that I've
looked back on it, you snipped all of his post and responded to
Testy's one line. As far as my not commenting on it, this "marketeer"
thing seems to be one of your personal hotspots, which is fine. But I
tend to respond to things that either I can help with or that I have
a comment about because it interests and/or amuses me.

I'm sure that you also pick and choose what you respond to.


Agreed.



The "Of course, they won't do it" is *intimately" tied into the whole
airhead marketing-mentality avoidance-of-responsibility mindset
that dumps marketeer-created problems into other people's laps.

And your high-minded "noble" attitude to the problem is part of
the reason this silly nonsense continues.


Oh, I doubt that I'm being noble at all. I help non-customers on the
phone because I find that it's a good way to turn a percentage of
them into customers. If I look at what it costs me to answers those
questions vs. what it costs me for print advertising, then look at
the number of customers each gets me, the "being nice to people"
on the phone gets me more customers.


No problem. Sound business practice. See above for why so many
in the industry don't follow the practice -- and the inevitable

consequence.

Maybe living in Mayberry isn't all that bad....But the cows are odd....



As far as answering questions on the newsgroup, it's a great way to
learn what sorts of problems other people are having on their
computers, so that when I run across the same issue with a customer's
computer, I have some ideas what to look for. It's certainly more
interesting than memorizing the knowledge base.


And we're all here on the newsgroups because our collective knowledge
is *way* more powerful than the knowledgebase will *ever* be. And
everybody knows it. And that's why I participate in discussions like this
one -- because *this* is how we gather the consensus required to change
the world.




Marketeers need to be ground up, spit out and pounded into
the ground for turning this business into a circus that only a fool
could love.


Well, you've already called me a fool, so there you have it.


You've missed my point. I said you were a fool if you wasted your
time dealing with the ungrateful and those who would pay you 5 cents
on the dollar for your work.

I stand behind that statement.


From what you've told me -- you have somehow avoided that trap.
Good for you.

By a combination of good luck, good management and good
location -- your client-base is remarkably free of the kind of
wasteful freeloaders that drive many well-intentioned businesses
into the ground. This is great -- and I wish you well.


Well, thanks. It's been an interesting time, and overall, it's been
pleasant. About one customer a year gives me greif, but I can live with
that. And those give me something to write about in my monthly column in the
local paper, so it's not a total loss.



  #66  
Old December 27th 03, 02:29 PM
D.Currie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

And that's fine. The problem comes in when people buy what they think will
be full retail, and the product is OEM. Then they can't use it as an
upgrade, and they get no support from MS.

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...
I bought a Microsoft Windows XP Pro (OEM) from New Egg. I
also bought a motherboard and CPU...I am my own tech
support. The OEM XP Pro was $128, the mobo and CPU was
about $200.
My XP CD says Microsoft on it and it is legal. Unless you
have a Dell, installing a Dell branded OEM CD on another
computer is not legal.

The information is available, but people don't want to read.


"D.Currie" wrote in message
...
| The problem may also be that not everyone who sells OEM
software has an OEM
| agreement with MS. Somewhere I have a document that says
what I'm supposed
| to do for the end user, and that includes providing
support. Among other
| things.
|
| OTOH if a person buys OEM software independent of a
system, he is probably
| considered the system builder, and the seller is acting as
a distributor
| (albeit not one of MSs authorized distributors; another
problem). As an OEM
| with an agreement with MS, I get support from MS, but that
individual who
| buys one copy on the 'net doesn't get support as he's not
in the program.
|
| Another thing is that some people don't know where the
line is between
| technical support and training. And they aren't clear
where they should go
| for support, so they look in all the wrong places and get
frustrated. Many
| people think the system builder should be responsible for
everything that
| goes into the computer, and are quite surprised when Dell
or whoever won't
| troubleshoot their printers or games or obscure software.
|
| "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote
in message
| ...
| But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the
software" or is
| that support if any comes from the OEM and not
Microsoft.
| The real fault may be that the customer is not informed
why the OEM is
| cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
| Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes
many consumers
| when they think they see a bargain and a not so
informative
| salesperson.
| Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could
be modified
| to show it, however the package is not always seen by
the consumer.
|
| --
| Jupiter Jones [MVP]
| An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
|
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...oups/setup.asp
| Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
|
|
| "D.Currie" wrote in message
| ...
| Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the
rule that OEMs
| have to
| support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to
sell OEM. As a
| small
| system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
questions
| face-to-face,
| and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get
plenty of calls
| from people
| who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get
an answer.
|
| Then there are the people who sell the oem software
with trinkets,
| and have
| no intention or ability to answer questions.
|
| I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even
the not-yet
| customers -- I figure some day I will get their
business.
|
| But it does irritate me that others shirk the
responsibility to give
| the
| technical support they're supposed to. They aren't
footing the cost
| for
| proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which
is fine for
| the
| customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
I'm providing
| free tech
| support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
person in the
| meantime.
|
|
|
|




  #67  
Old December 27th 03, 02:29 PM
Ted
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Jim Macklin" wrote in message =
...

Dell branded OEM CD on another
computer is not legal.
=20


Prove it is not legal, by showing this as an actual law that is written. =
Remember, MS is NOT the law!

  #68  
Old December 27th 03, 02:29 PM
Ted
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Mister Charlie" wrote in message =
...

This one sentence clearly defines what and who YOU are. PLONK.


Who, what, where, how, why, when???

  #69  
Old December 27th 03, 02:29 PM
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Ted;
What does the EULA that was agreed to on that Dell CD say?
It is a different EULA.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...oups/setup.asp
Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.


"Ted" wrote in message
...
Prove it is not legal, by showing this as an actual law that is
written. Remember, MS is NOT the law!


  #70  
Old December 27th 03, 02:31 PM
Gerry Cornell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Jim

The information is there to be read but is it in Plain English or =
whatever language you use?

--=20
~~~~~~


Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please tell the newsgroup how any=20
suggested solution worked for you.
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Jim Macklin" wrote in message =
...
I bought a Microsoft Windows XP Pro (OEM) from New Egg. I
also bought a motherboard and CPU...I am my own tech
support. The OEM XP Pro was $128, the mobo and CPU was
about $200.
My XP CD says Microsoft on it and it is legal. Unless you
have a Dell, installing a Dell branded OEM CD on another
computer is not legal.
=20
The information is available, but people don't want to read.
=20
=20
"D.Currie" wrote in message
...
| The problem may also be that not everyone who sells OEM
software has an OEM
| agreement with MS. Somewhere I have a document that says
what I'm supposed
| to do for the end user, and that includes providing
support. Among other
| things.
|
| OTOH if a person buys OEM software independent of a
system, he is probably
| considered the system builder, and the seller is acting as
a distributor
| (albeit not one of MSs authorized distributors; another
problem). As an OEM
| with an agreement with MS, I get support from MS, but that
individual who
| buys one copy on the 'net doesn't get support as he's not
in the program.
|
| Another thing is that some people don't know where the
line is between
| technical support and training. And they aren't clear
where they should go
| for support, so they look in all the wrong places and get
frustrated. Many
| people think the system builder should be responsible for
everything that
| goes into the computer, and are quite surprised when Dell
or whoever won't
| troubleshoot their printers or games or obscure software.
|
| "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote
in message
| ...
| But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the
software" or is
| that support if any comes from the OEM and not
Microsoft.
| The real fault may be that the customer is not informed
why the OEM is
| cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
| Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes
many consumers
| when they think they see a bargain and a not so
informative
| salesperson.
| Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could
be modified
| to show it, however the package is not always seen by
the consumer.
|
| --=20
| Jupiter Jones [MVP]
| An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
|
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...oups/setup.asp
| Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
|
|
| "D.Currie" wrote in message
| ...
| Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the
rule that OEMs
| have to
| support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to
sell OEM. As a
| small
| system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
questions
| face-to-face,
| and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get
plenty of calls
| from people
| who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get
an answer.
|
| Then there are the people who sell the oem software
with trinkets,
| and have
| no intention or ability to answer questions.
|
| I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even
the not-yet
| customers -- I figure some day I will get their
business.
|
| But it does irritate me that others shirk the
responsibility to give
| the
| technical support they're supposed to. They aren't
footing the cost
| for
| proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which
is fine for
| the
| customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
I'm providing
| free tech
| support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
person in the
| meantime.
|
|
|
|
=20

  #71  
Old December 27th 03, 02:31 PM
nevermore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

I hesitate to reply, feel a little squeamish about the inevitable abuse I
feel I am inviting but here goes anyway. I am one of those people--the ones
who bought from a huge vendor without prior research. I had no idea (until I
started reading this newsgroup) what the heck an OEM was. I have no problem
at all with the concept that I got what I paid for; however, it would have
been nice to have been advised by my retailer either verbally or in writing,
that I was not getting a "complete" OS and that I would have to go somewhere
other than MS for support. That would have given me the option to say, no
problem, let me pay you for a full copy whatever or would have let me try to
negotiate for a full copy. Whatever. And yes, I know I can still go out and
buy one. But that is after the fact and after I learned all about it. In my
(stupid one of those people) opinion, to use a car analogy which everyone
hates, everyone knows that you have to get a car serviced and seen to from
time to time and that is just fine and no one expects you to be a mechanic
when you buy a car. But the smelly stuff would hit the fan if you found out
after you got the car home that you could only get it repaired by taking it
to certain garages and you couldn't even talk to, say, Ford. And it didn't
come with a spare tire. But hey, you paid a couple of hundred bucks less for
it and you should have asked when you bought it. From where I am sitting, I
can't ask what I don't know about and being one of those persons, I can't
actually tell that I am paying less for it. Yes, believe it or not, you can
compare whole systems from store to store quite easily but it is not obvious
(to those people) that the price difference is because of the type of
components vs. a lightweight OS. Or because they just have a great sale
going on. Again, I have no problem with the buyer beware concept etcetera.
But I think that there should be some requirement for full disclosure with
respect to the operating system. As in "Comes with Windows XP OEM". I hope
that if I had seen that I would have asked what is OEM? Maybe not-- I am one
of those people g but at that point I could not have any complaint at all.



"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...
Jim

The information is there to be read but is it in Plain English or whatever
language you use?

--
~~~~~~


Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please tell the newsgroup how any
suggested solution worked for you.
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...
I bought a Microsoft Windows XP Pro (OEM) from New Egg. I
also bought a motherboard and CPU...I am my own tech
support. The OEM XP Pro was $128, the mobo and CPU was
about $200.
My XP CD says Microsoft on it and it is legal. Unless you
have a Dell, installing a Dell branded OEM CD on another
computer is not legal.

The information is available, but people don't want to read.


"D.Currie" wrote in message
...
| The problem may also be that not everyone who sells OEM
software has an OEM
| agreement with MS. Somewhere I have a document that says
what I'm supposed
| to do for the end user, and that includes providing
support. Among other
| things.
|
| OTOH if a person buys OEM software independent of a
system, he is probably
| considered the system builder, and the seller is acting as
a distributor
| (albeit not one of MSs authorized distributors; another
problem). As an OEM
| with an agreement with MS, I get support from MS, but that
individual who
| buys one copy on the 'net doesn't get support as he's not
in the program.
|
| Another thing is that some people don't know where the
line is between
| technical support and training. And they aren't clear
where they should go
| for support, so they look in all the wrong places and get
frustrated. Many
| people think the system builder should be responsible for
everything that
| goes into the computer, and are quite surprised when Dell
or whoever won't
| troubleshoot their printers or games or obscure software.
|
| "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote
in message
| ...
| But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the
software" or is
| that support if any comes from the OEM and not
Microsoft.
| The real fault may be that the customer is not informed
why the OEM is
| cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
| Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes
many consumers
| when they think they see a bargain and a not so
informative
| salesperson.
| Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could
be modified
| to show it, however the package is not always seen by
the consumer.
|
| --
| Jupiter Jones [MVP]
| An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
|
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...oups/setup.asp
| Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
|
|
| "D.Currie" wrote in message
| ...
| Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the
rule that OEMs
| have to
| support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to
sell OEM. As a
| small
| system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
questions
| face-to-face,
| and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get
plenty of calls
| from people
| who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get
an answer.
|
| Then there are the people who sell the oem software
with trinkets,
| and have
| no intention or ability to answer questions.
|
| I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even
the not-yet
| customers -- I figure some day I will get their
business.
|
| But it does irritate me that others shirk the
responsibility to give
| the
| technical support they're supposed to. They aren't
footing the cost
| for
| proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which
is fine for
| the
| customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
I'm providing
| free tech
| support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
person in the
| meantime.
|
|
|
|




  #72  
Old December 27th 03, 02:31 PM
David Candy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Nothing wrong with what you say. It's fraud I think. But please use =
paragraphs.

--=20
http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm
http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Candy
http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros
---------------------------------------------------------------
"nevermore" wrote in message =
le.rogers.com...
I hesitate to reply, feel a little squeamish about the inevitable =

abuse I
feel I am inviting but here goes anyway. I am one of those people--the =

ones
who bought from a huge vendor without prior research. I had no idea =

(until I
started reading this newsgroup) what the heck an OEM was. I have no =

problem
at all with the concept that I got what I paid for; however, it would =

have
been nice to have been advised by my retailer either verbally or in =

writing,
that I was not getting a "complete" OS and that I would have to go =

somewhere
other than MS for support. That would have given me the option to say, =

no
problem, let me pay you for a full copy whatever or would have let me =

try to
negotiate for a full copy. Whatever. And yes, I know I can still go =

out and
buy one. But that is after the fact and after I learned all about it. =

In my
(stupid one of those people) opinion, to use a car analogy which =

everyone
hates, everyone knows that you have to get a car serviced and seen to =

from
time to time and that is just fine and no one expects you to be a =

mechanic
when you buy a car. But the smelly stuff would hit the fan if you =

found out
after you got the car home that you could only get it repaired by =

taking it
to certain garages and you couldn't even talk to, say, Ford. And it =

didn't
come with a spare tire. But hey, you paid a couple of hundred bucks =

less for
it and you should have asked when you bought it. From where I am =

sitting, I
can't ask what I don't know about and being one of those persons, I =

can't
actually tell that I am paying less for it. Yes, believe it or not, =

you can
compare whole systems from store to store quite easily but it is not =

obvious
(to those people) that the price difference is because of the type of
components vs. a lightweight OS. Or because they just have a great =

sale
going on. Again, I have no problem with the buyer beware concept =

etcetera.
But I think that there should be some requirement for full disclosure =

with
respect to the operating system. As in "Comes with Windows XP OEM". I =

hope
that if I had seen that I would have asked what is OEM? Maybe not-- I =

am one
of those people g but at that point I could not have any complaint =

at all.
=20
=20
=20
"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...
Jim
=20
The information is there to be read but is it in Plain English or =

whatever
language you use?
=20
--=20
~~~~~~
=20
=20
Hope this helps.
=20
Gerry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please tell the newsgroup how any
suggested solution worked for you.
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=20
=20
"Jim Macklin" wrote in =

message
...
I bought a Microsoft Windows XP Pro (OEM) from New Egg. I
also bought a motherboard and CPU...I am my own tech
support. The OEM XP Pro was $128, the mobo and CPU was
about $200.
My XP CD says Microsoft on it and it is legal. Unless you
have a Dell, installing a Dell branded OEM CD on another
computer is not legal.

The information is available, but people don't want to read.


"D.Currie" wrote in message
...
| The problem may also be that not everyone who sells OEM
software has an OEM
| agreement with MS. Somewhere I have a document that says
what I'm supposed
| to do for the end user, and that includes providing
support. Among other
| things.
|
| OTOH if a person buys OEM software independent of a
system, he is probably
| considered the system builder, and the seller is acting as
a distributor
| (albeit not one of MSs authorized distributors; another
problem). As an OEM
| with an agreement with MS, I get support from MS, but that
individual who
| buys one copy on the 'net doesn't get support as he's not
in the program.
|
| Another thing is that some people don't know where the
line is between
| technical support and training. And they aren't clear
where they should go
| for support, so they look in all the wrong places and get
frustrated. Many
| people think the system builder should be responsible for
everything that
| goes into the computer, and are quite surprised when Dell
or whoever won't
| troubleshoot their printers or games or obscure software.
|
| "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote
in message
| ...
| But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the
software" or is
| that support if any comes from the OEM and not
Microsoft.
| The real fault may be that the customer is not informed
why the OEM is
| cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
| Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes
many consumers
| when they think they see a bargain and a not so
informative
| salesperson.
| Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could
be modified
| to show it, however the package is not always seen by
the consumer.
|
| --=20
| Jupiter Jones [MVP]
| An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
|
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...oups/setup.asp
| Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
|
|
| "D.Currie" wrote in message
| ...
| Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the
rule that OEMs
| have to
| support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to
sell OEM. As a
| small
| system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
questions
| face-to-face,
| and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get
plenty of calls
| from people
| who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get
an answer.
|
| Then there are the people who sell the oem software
with trinkets,
| and have
| no intention or ability to answer questions.
|
| I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even
the not-yet
| customers -- I figure some day I will get their
business.
|
| But it does irritate me that others shirk the
responsibility to give
| the
| technical support they're supposed to. They aren't
footing the cost
| for
| proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which
is fine for
| the
| customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
I'm providing
| free tech
| support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
person in the
| meantime.
|
|
|
|


=20
=20


  #73  
Old December 27th 03, 02:32 PM
Ted
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message =
...
Ted;
What does the EULA that was agreed to on that Dell CD say?
It is a different EULA.
=20


curse mode off for now

That's not the point! MS's EULA (or any software contract) is not a =
binding legal document written under laws of a criminal code, other than =
if one breaks the agreement, it could be a civil matter in a court of =
law. But to use the term "legal" (or illegal) cannot apply in this case =
since there is no actual written law where one can be arrested for using =
the same copy of Windows on two or more PCs. While I agree to the EULA, =
and personally will not use it on another PC, until MS and software =
writers get national legislators to amend the software copyright laws, =
applying opinions as legal code is pretty silly, IMHO! Until that =
happens, it is certain that agreeing to a contract (or EULA, etc), is =
solely on the conscious of the user, and how their morals are to making =
such agreements and how they in turn use the said software (if used on =
multiple hardware installations).

curse mode on
  #74  
Old December 27th 03, 02:34 PM
Gerry Cornell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Jupiter

I take it that the major computer retailers like Dell have their own =
customised OEM version. However, is there a Microsoft non-customised OEM =
version issued to small computer assemblers through authorised =
distributors, which are no different to the retail version, except that =
it is an OEM version? How much customisation is permitted?

--=20

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message =
...
Ted;
What does the EULA that was agreed to on that Dell CD say?
It is a different EULA.
=20
--=20
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...oups/setup.asp
Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.
=20
=20
"Ted" wrote in message
...
Prove it is not legal, by showing this as an actual law that is
written. Remember, MS is NOT the law!
=20

  #75  
Old December 27th 03, 02:34 PM
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

You would have to ask the dealer or look on Microsoft's OEM site.
Different OEMs are under different contracts with Microsoft.
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/
That is why you have to read the specific EULA on the product you are
using.
My EULA or even the EULA on another of your own computers is not
relevant to a different computer.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...oups/setup.asp
Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.


"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...
Jupiter

I take it that the major computer retailers like Dell have their own
customised OEM version. However, is there a Microsoft non-customised
OEM version issued to small computer assemblers through authorised
distributors, which are no different to the retail version, except
that it is an OEM version? How much customisation is permitted?

--

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message
...
Ted;
What does the EULA that was agreed to on that Dell CD say?
It is a different EULA.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...oups/setup.asp
Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.


"Ted" wrote in message
...
Prove it is not legal, by showing this as an actual law that is
written. Remember, MS is NOT the law!




 




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