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#106
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Classic Shell
On 10/5/2013 1:48 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
Alias wrote: On 10/4/2013 5:23 PM, Ed Cryer wrote: Char Jackson wrote: On Thu, 03 Oct 2013 22:30:14 +0100, Ed Cryer wrote: Char Jackson wrote: On Thu, 03 Oct 2013 19:42:00 +0100, Ed Cryer wrote: He's not throwing stones; he's teaching. What are you going to tell kids? "Well, it's wrong to steal; except maybe in circumstance A or possibly a combination of circumstance B with C (provided that circumstances T and Y have previously occurred)." No! You teach them the moral normative rule. "It's wrong to steal". And why do you do that? Because kids come out of the womb knowing no better. And if you don't teach them otherwise they'll steal and kill and create a hell on Earth. Little gangster babies, feeding their needs with antisocial and criminal behaviour. Just within the past month or so I saw a documentary where they used 2-month old babies to determine the relative roles of nature versus nurture when it comes to good and bad behavior, being able to choose one over the other and being able to recognize it in others. Take it with a grain of salt, but they concluded that babies are born with morals and a sense of right and wrong. Like I say, take it with a grain of salt, but if correct, we aren't raising little gangsters. Wish I had a link. Anyone else see it? I didn't see it, but I do hope you're right. Man, that would really give me a boost. I've found this; http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50151800n If that's it, say yes and I'll watch it. Yes, that's the one I was thinking of. Fascinating. That's going to cause some stir. It runs against so many previous conclusions from research, and a vast history of philosophy and religion. I guess the "scientific method" comes into play here; especially the "replication" requirement. That'll take time. There's a follow-up to the video here; http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_1...e-is-watching/ There might be in that some insight into why Net piracy is so prevalent; nobody (apparently) watching. I've just looked on one piracy download site, specifically at one copy of "Total War ROME II-RELOADED" seeders: 2797 leechers: 1371 It shows "Added on Sep 3, 2013 by Mr.Stiffy in Games PC Torrent verified. Downloaded 23,393 times. Sheesh! I think it must be a very wide-spread phenomenon. Maybe Alias is doing us a favour with his passionate and candid lack of hypocrisy. He's showing us a very commonly held set of justifications. Incidentally, that game retails at 29.99 British pounds sterling. Ed Check it when a famous singer's album comes out. What strikes me about it is how easy it is.You go to a website, do a search, download it. You also need a program like Deluge or BitTorrent to do the download. I prefer Deluge. There's no sense of criminality on the website either. People discuss the quality of the material with all the air of innocence that you might find in a good club; they give videos ratings, discuss the games, talk about where the best version is available. And it's done in such large numbers. Yep. It's obvious that most of the clients don't think like me. Me, I ask about where in the cinema the webcam was placed, who bought or stole the video and uploaded it etc. But it sure doesn't feel like a criminal fraternity. In most countries, it isn't. Imagine if somebody stole a pile of Levi jeans and stood in a town square giving them away to any passer-by that wanted them. You'd see the criminality there, and you'd feel it; the cowering body-language, the shifty exchanges, the careful looking all around. I think a lot of people have socio-political justification for what they do. In the same way that they'd speak up for Julian Assange or Bradley Manning, or against GW Bush and Tony Blair for having conned us into going to war. It's them and us; the haves and the have-nots; the power-brokers who abuse it v. the poor abused. They see themselves as combating a corrupt system, on the side of humanity and democracy. Ed Exactly. -- Alias The only real problems are avarice, anger and stupidity. |
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#107
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Classic Shell
On 10/4/13 4:58 AM, Alias wrote:
On 10/4/2013 5:37 AM, Ken Springer wrote: On 10/3/13 5:20 PM, Alias wrote: On 10/3/2013 11:22 PM, Ed Cryer wrote: Alias wrote: On 10/3/2013 8:13 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote: On Thu, 03 Oct 2013 14:54:49 +0200, Alias wrote: But we know you appear to be a thief. No, it's legal and not theft to use a copy of software, music or videos where I live. I am not depriving the owners of their software. They still have it and no one stole it from them. Can we add logic impaired to your naivety? You *are* denying the creator of the software income from his software. You are assuming it would be bought if the only way to get it was to pay. You're assuming that the one who steals it doesn't want it; and that makes him a mindless thief. Ed No, can't afford it. Not Start8, of course, but Photoshop or Creative Suite is priced in the hundreds and if someone wanted to pull himself out of poverty by using those programs along with some other pricey programs like Office, you would throw that person in jail and feel all "moral" about it. These days, you don't have to use those programs. There are plenty of open source programs that can be used instead. Gimp and Libre Office are not the same. Why not? They do the same functions as the high dollar items. I guess, if you were in that position, you would rather steal than use something legal. In Spain, it isn't stealing. Once again, in case you don't understand, we are not discussing the legality, we are discussing if the situation is stealing/theft. Want something else to chew on? In Spain, any theft, real theft, less than 400 Euros is not a crime. That's about 600 USD. In the states, if someone stole because they were poor and hungry, they would be thrown into one of the worst prison systems in the world and their life would basically be over. How moral is that? Really scraping the bottom of the barrel now. I'm sure the jails of places like China, Iran, Venezuela, and untold others are far worse than in the US. The jails in the USA are mostly private now where it behooves the jailors to make sure all the prisoners stay as long as possible. A judge was convicted of making money sending folks to jail. Rape in US jails is a problem along with overcrowding, draconian sentences and, my favorite: the barbaric death penalty. Yeah, the US is right there with China, Iran and Venezuela although in Venezuela they have conjugal rights, unlike the USA. As for Spain, just how good is their economy? Thanks to the bankers, Wall Street and crooked politicians, the economy is struggling. You do have to have a society where people believe in working for what they receive, not expect someone to provide it. Some group help is good, but go to far, and too few are paying the bills. How many people there have lost income because of your viewpoint? None. You know this how? Support that statement. I suspect if you were in the position of losing income because of that law, you would be unhappy. Windows was and is the software that is stolen the most. Last I checked, Microsoft is not out of business. That does not make it right. "If they are going to steal software, I want them to steal mine", Bill Gates. If I were a writer of software and no one wanted to steal it, I would be disappointed. Which probably means no one wants to buy it, either. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.5 Firefox 23.0 Thunderbird 17.0.8 LibreOffice 4.1.0.4 |
#108
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Classic Shell
On 10/5/2013 2:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/3/13 7:00 AM, Alias wrote: On 10/3/2013 2:46 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 10/3/13 3:49 AM, Alias wrote: On 10/3/2013 1:31 AM, Ken Springer wrote: On 10/2/13 5:12 PM, Alias wrote: On 10/2/2013 7:52 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 10/2/13 11:14 AM, Alias wrote: On 10/2/2013 6:23 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 10/2/13 10:06 AM, Alias wrote: On 10/2/2013 5:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 10/2/13 8:51 AM, Alias wrote: On 10/2/2013 4:12 PM, Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: On Wed, 02 Oct 2013 08:00:38 -0600, "Ken Springer" wrote in article l2h8u3$52r$1 @speranza.aioe.org... On 10/2/13 5:00 AM, Ron wrote: On 10/2/2013 3:42 AM, Ian Jackson wrote: In message , Ken Blake writes On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 03:35:15 -0400, Ron wrote: On 8/26/2013 5:06 PM, Ken Blake wrote: On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 03:35:01 -0500, CRNG wrote: snip As far as I'm concerned, $4.99 is close enough to free. I don't mind paying for it. If you've found it for free, care to share? snip pirate link So, you believe in stealing????? And for a measly $5 even. Petty theft, a misdemeanor in the USA. Course, some countries like Spain have laws that if it's for personal use and not for profit, downloading from The Pirate Bay is completely legal and not considered theft. You do know that this group can be accessed by folks not in the USA or do you? I do, but taking something that doesn't belong to you is still theft, no matter how small. It's only theft if the law says it's theft. Ask MS and Apple what they took from Xerox. Did they activate before using what they took? Negative, sir. If you have morals, and live by them, it's theft. The law just provides consequences acceptable to the majority of society. Give me a ****ing break and get off your high moral horse. No one steals, right? Not Wall Street, not the politicians, the oil companies, the banks? Because someone else steals, that means you should? Some people slash tires, should you? Or be like that motorcycle group in New York? Got anything you want me to steal from you?? Have you been this naive all your life? Have you been a thief all your life? Using a copy of someone's software is legal here if you don't make money off of it. Where is here? People reading this do not know where you are. I already posted that I live in Spain. The music, software and film industries have taken it to court here many times and lost every time. So, are you calling all the judges facilitators of theft? Legally, apparently, no. Morally, yes. "Morally" is a subjective judgment and has no bearing. If someone were to steal your car, you would be without a car. If someone were to "steal" a copy of your car, you'd still have a car. But you can't copy a car. You have to buy the parts to build another one. That is not the same as using something that came from someone's brain. The owner of the software still has the software. No one stole it from him or her. Copying and using software falls in the same category as plagiarism. A product born from someone's mind. Check definition #2 he http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/steal?s=t&path=/ I am not stealing the idea and saying it's my idea. Since you brought up a biblical reference in message , how about the Sixth Commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Steal"? I'm not stealing. From your comments, it sounds like you don't care if people steal from you. Do you? If I wrote software I would agree with Bill Gates who said, "If they are going to steal software, I want them to steal mine". You can bet your ass that software writers check The Pirate Bay to see how well their software is doing. Whether or not someone wants you to steal it is not the question. The question is, are you a thief if you do? Which you have tacitly agreed with when you say you want people to steal your product. That being the case, why not let me take $5 from your wallet every day? And I'll give it to charity. Under your definition, since I'm not making money or profit, I'm not a thief. I suggest you take a course in logic. -- Alias The only real problems are avarice, anger and stupidity. |
#109
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Classic Shell
On 10/5/2013 2:13 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/4/13 4:58 AM, Alias wrote: On 10/4/2013 5:37 AM, Ken Springer wrote: On 10/3/13 5:20 PM, Alias wrote: On 10/3/2013 11:22 PM, Ed Cryer wrote: Alias wrote: On 10/3/2013 8:13 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote: On Thu, 03 Oct 2013 14:54:49 +0200, Alias wrote: But we know you appear to be a thief. No, it's legal and not theft to use a copy of software, music or videos where I live. I am not depriving the owners of their software. They still have it and no one stole it from them. Can we add logic impaired to your naivety? You *are* denying the creator of the software income from his software. You are assuming it would be bought if the only way to get it was to pay. You're assuming that the one who steals it doesn't want it; and that makes him a mindless thief. Ed No, can't afford it. Not Start8, of course, but Photoshop or Creative Suite is priced in the hundreds and if someone wanted to pull himself out of poverty by using those programs along with some other pricey programs like Office, you would throw that person in jail and feel all "moral" about it. These days, you don't have to use those programs. There are plenty of open source programs that can be used instead. Gimp and Libre Office are not the same. Why not? They do the same functions as the high dollar items. No, they don't. Gimp is, well, crippled compared to Photo Shop and Libre Office has no email program and the rest of it can't compare to MS Office. I guess, if you were in that position, you would rather steal than use something legal. In Spain, it isn't stealing. Once again, in case you don't understand, we are not discussing the legality, we are discussing if the situation is stealing/theft. The judges in Spain say it isn't. You on your high moral horse want me to accept your opinion as fact and that ain't happening. Want something else to chew on? In Spain, any theft, real theft, less than 400 Euros is not a crime. That's about 600 USD. In the states, if someone stole because they were poor and hungry, they would be thrown into one of the worst prison systems in the world and their life would basically be over. How moral is that? Really scraping the bottom of the barrel now. I'm sure the jails of places like China, Iran, Venezuela, and untold others are far worse than in the US. The jails in the USA are mostly private now where it behooves the jailors to make sure all the prisoners stay as long as possible. A judge was convicted of making money sending folks to jail. Rape in US jails is a problem along with overcrowding, draconian sentences and, my favorite: the barbaric death penalty. Yeah, the US is right there with China, Iran and Venezuela although in Venezuela they have conjugal rights, unlike the USA. Hello? As for Spain, just how good is their economy? Thanks to the bankers, Wall Street and crooked politicians, the economy is struggling. You do have to have a society where people believe in working for what they receive, not expect someone to provide it. Some group help is good, but go to far, and too few are paying the bills. Do you have a point here? I fail to see what it has to do with what I wrote. How many people there have lost income because of your viewpoint? None. You know this how? Support that statement. If it were widespread, it would have hit the media already. I suspect if you were in the position of losing income because of that law, you would be unhappy. Windows was and is the software that is stolen the most. Last I checked, Microsoft is not out of business. That does not make it right. "Right" is a moral judgment. You made that judgment. It is NOT fact. "If they are going to steal software, I want them to steal mine", Bill Gates. If I were a writer of software and no one wanted to steal it, I would be disappointed. Which probably means no one wants to buy it, either. Correct. -- Alias The only real problems are avarice, anger and stupidity. |
#110
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Classic Shell
On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 06:13:54 -0600, Ken Springer wrote:
Once again, in case you don't understand, we are not discussing the legality, we are discussing if the situation is stealing/theft. 1. For goodness sake, Ken, learn how to trim replies to posts! Wading through six or seven levels of quotes is such a pain. Have some pity on the readers! 2. Theft is a legal term, it's already established that theft is not involved here. 3. Calling someone a thief on here is a libel. That isn't a crime either but you can be sued for it. |
#111
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Classic Shell
On 05 Oct 2013, mechanic wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-8: 2. Theft is a legal term, it's already established that theft is not involved here. "Theft" is not only a legal term. We're talking about the common usage. 3. Calling someone a thief on here is a libel. That isn't a crime either but you can be sued for it. You can be sued for just about any trivial complaint. That doesn't mean it's valid or justified. |
#112
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Classic Shell
On 10/5/13 7:54 AM, mechanic wrote:
On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 06:13:54 -0600, Ken Springer wrote: Once again, in case you don't understand, we are not discussing the legality, we are discussing if the situation is stealing/theft. 1. For goodness sake, Ken, learn how to trim replies to posts! Wading through six or seven levels of quotes is such a pain. Have some pity on the readers! My apologies to you and the other readers for not trimming. I usually do trim, but I simply did not have the time, and have less time now. Most of the time, I simply marked Alias's posts to reply to later. And I have even less time now, so Alias has gone from low priority to no priority. G Ken Blake's comment of him being a troll is probably accurate. I think Alias is someone that would get no respect from anyone I know or work with. We already have one coworker none of us have much respect for, we certainly wouldn't want another. :-) 2. Theft is a legal term, it's already established that theft is not involved here. 3. Calling someone a thief on here is a libel. That isn't a crime either but you can be sued for it. To be libel, a statement has to be a false statement that harms a person's reputation, etc. Based on the comments of most posters in this thread, you'd have a hard time proving that. Plus, there is free speech here (US) and I assume wherever you are. And people have a right to express their opinion of someone. Not liking what someone says about you does not make it libel. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.5 Firefox 23.0 Thunderbird 17.0.8 LibreOffice 4.1.0.4 |
#113
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Classic Shell
Alias wrote:
I think a lot of people have socio-political justification for what they do. In the same way that they'd speak up for Julian Assange or Bradley Manning, or against GW Bush and Tony Blair for having conned us into going to war. It's them and us; the haves and the have-nots; the power-brokers who abuse it v. the poor abused. They see themselves as combating a corrupt system, on the side of humanity and democracy. Ed Exactly. This "exactly" would ring more true in my ears if I could really believe that you believe it. I might step towards that if you were to express yourself in a more articulate and cultured way than you do. My language is that of a middle-class intellectual; a man who's had one of the best educations available and feels most at home in middle-class society with its values and aspirations. Yours isn't. You express yourself in a very working-class fashion; and it is often rude and offensive. You don't display a wish to look into things too deeply, no patience, low boredom threshold before you just lash out in anger. The people who frequent the download websites are mostly like that too. I don't get on with them. There's a cultural gap between us (a "class barrier" to use old, non-PC language). If I start a conversation with one of them it doesn't take too long before we've nothing more to say to each other. We are traditional enemies; and we tread separate pathways through life. When we're forced by circumstances into being together for any length of time, it's more likely that we'll end up fighting than seeing the heart of each other. They blame me, I blame them. That old cultural divide. There are a lot of people like that. I try and respect their cultural norms as best I can (that's my political ideals taking a driving-seat) but, as I said, mutual misunderstanding and fighting often result. I suspect this little missive will be like water off a duck's back. You won't relate to it as it goes out. You might encourage me with something like "exactly" or "quite agree" because you see me as a winner, but that won't bond us. Ed |
#114
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Classic Shell
Ed Cryer wrote in :
This "exactly" would ring more true in my ears if I could really believe that you believe it. I might step towards that if you were to express yourself in a more articulate and cultured way than you do. My language is that of a middle-class intellectual; a man who's had one of the best educations available and feels most at home in middle-class society with its values and aspirations. Yours isn't. You express yourself in a very working-class fashion; and it is often rude and offensive. You don't display a wish to look into things too deeply, no patience, low boredom threshold before you just lash out in anger. The people who frequent the download websites are mostly like that too. I don't get on with them. There's a cultural gap between us (a "class barrier" to use old, non-PC language). If I start a conversation with one of them it doesn't take too long before we've nothing more to say to each other. We are traditional enemies; and we tread separate pathways through life. When we're forced by circumstances into being together for any length of time, it's more likely that we'll end up fighting than seeing the heart of each other. They blame me, I blame them. That old cultural divide. There are a lot of people like that. I try and respect their cultural norms as best I can (that's my political ideals taking a driving-seat) but, as I said, mutual misunderstanding and fighting often result. I suspect this little missive will be like water off a duck's back. You won't relate to it as it goes out. You might encourage me with something like "exactly" or "quite agree" because you see me as a winner, but that won't bond us. Well Ed, I don't see you as a "winner", but I do see you as an arsehole. |
#115
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Classic Shell
On 10/8/13 3:15 PM, Nicodimus wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote in : This "exactly" would ring more true in my ears if I could really believe that you believe it. I might step towards that if you were to express yourself in a more articulate and cultured way than you do. My language is that of a middle-class intellectual; a man who's had one of the best educations available and feels most at home in middle-class society with its values and aspirations. Yours isn't. You express yourself in a very working-class fashion; and it is often rude and offensive. You don't display a wish to look into things too deeply, no patience, low boredom threshold before you just lash out in anger. The people who frequent the download websites are mostly like that too. I don't get on with them. There's a cultural gap between us (a "class barrier" to use old, non-PC language). If I start a conversation with one of them it doesn't take too long before we've nothing more to say to each other. We are traditional enemies; and we tread separate pathways through life. When we're forced by circumstances into being together for any length of time, it's more likely that we'll end up fighting than seeing the heart of each other. They blame me, I blame them. That old cultural divide. There are a lot of people like that. I try and respect their cultural norms as best I can (that's my political ideals taking a driving-seat) but, as I said, mutual misunderstanding and fighting often result. I suspect this little missive will be like water off a duck's back. You won't relate to it as it goes out. You might encourage me with something like "exactly" or "quite agree" because you see me as a winner, but that won't bond us. Well Ed, I don't see you as a "winner", but I do see you as an arsehole. I believe you may have just proved Ed's point. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.5 Firefox 23.0 Thunderbird 17.0.8 LibreOffice 4.1.0.4 |
#116
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Classic Shell
On Tue, 08 Oct 2013 16:13:50 -0600, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/8/13 3:15 PM, Nicodimus wrote: Ed Cryer wrote in : This "exactly" would ring more true in my ears if I could really believe that you believe it. I might step towards that if you were to express yourself in a more articulate and cultured way than you do. My language is that of a middle-class intellectual; a man who's had one of the best educations available and feels most at home in middle-class society with its values and aspirations. Yours isn't. You express yourself in a very working-class fashion; and it is often rude and offensive. You don't display a wish to look into things too deeply, no patience, low boredom threshold before you just lash out in anger. The people who frequent the download websites are mostly like that too. I don't get on with them. There's a cultural gap between us (a "class barrier" to use old, non-PC language). If I start a conversation with one of them it doesn't take too long before we've nothing more to say to each other. We are traditional enemies; and we tread separate pathways through life. When we're forced by circumstances into being together for any length of time, it's more likely that we'll end up fighting than seeing the heart of each other. They blame me, I blame them. That old cultural divide. There are a lot of people like that. I try and respect their cultural norms as best I can (that's my political ideals taking a driving-seat) but, as I said, mutual misunderstanding and fighting often result. I suspect this little missive will be like water off a duck's back. You won't relate to it as it goes out. You might encourage me with something like "exactly" or "quite agree" because you see me as a winner, but that won't bond us. Well Ed, I don't see you as a "winner", but I do see you as an arsehole. I believe you may have just proved Ed's point. Ya think? :-) -- Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch) |
#117
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Classic Shell
On Tue, 08 Oct 2013 21:48:13 +0100, Ed Cryer wrote:
Alias wrote: I think a lot of people have socio-political justification for what they do. In the same way that they'd speak up for Julian Assange or Bradley Manning, or against GW Bush and Tony Blair for having conned us into going to war. It's them and us; the haves and the have-nots; the power-brokers who abuse it v. the poor abused. They see themselves as combating a corrupt system, on the side of humanity and democracy. Ed Exactly. This "exactly" would ring more true in my ears if I could really believe that you believe it. I might step towards that if you were to express yourself in a more articulate and cultured way than you do. My language is that of a middle-class intellectual; a man who's had one of the best educations available and feels most at home in middle-class society with its values and aspirations. Yours isn't. You express yourself in a very working-class fashion; and it is often rude and offensive. You don't display a wish to look into things too deeply, no patience, low boredom threshold before you just lash out in anger. The people who frequent the download websites are mostly like that too. I don't get on with them. There's a cultural gap between us (a "class barrier" to use old, non-PC language). If I start a conversation with one of them it doesn't take too long before we've nothing more to say to each other. We are traditional enemies; and we tread separate pathways through life. When we're forced by circumstances into being together for any length of time, it's more likely that we'll end up fighting than seeing the heart of each other. They blame me, I blame them. That old cultural divide. There are a lot of people like that. I try and respect their cultural norms as best I can (that's my political ideals taking a driving-seat) but, as I said, mutual misunderstanding and fighting often result. I suspect this little missive will be like water off a duck's back. You won't relate to it as it goes out. You might encourage me with something like "exactly" or "quite agree" because you see me as a winner, but that won't bond us. You might have made one or more valid points if it weren't for the part about "middle-class intellectual", "best educations available", and the things that immediately followed. Ouch. That was about as arrogant and obnoxious as anything I've seen lately. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it came across to me. Fail. I don't always agree with the way Alias expresses himself, but I usually respect the points he makes. I can much more easily overlook his rough language than I can someone who elevates himself like I saw above. Not that my opinion matters, of course. |
#118
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Classic Shell
On 10/9/2013 4:50 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
I don't always agree with the way Alias expresses himself, but I usually respect the points he makes. I can much more easily overlook his rough language than I can someone who elevates himself like I saw above. Not that my opinion matters, of course. But I almost always agree with what you post! -- Alias The only real problems are avarice, anger and stupidity. |
#119
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Classic Shell
Char Jackson wrote:
On Tue, 08 Oct 2013 21:48:13 +0100, Ed Cryer wrote: Alias wrote: I think a lot of people have socio-political justification for what they do. In the same way that they'd speak up for Julian Assange or Bradley Manning, or against GW Bush and Tony Blair for having conned us into going to war. It's them and us; the haves and the have-nots; the power-brokers who abuse it v. the poor abused. They see themselves as combating a corrupt system, on the side of humanity and democracy. Ed Exactly. This "exactly" would ring more true in my ears if I could really believe that you believe it. I might step towards that if you were to express yourself in a more articulate and cultured way than you do. My language is that of a middle-class intellectual; a man who's had one of the best educations available and feels most at home in middle-class society with its values and aspirations. Yours isn't. You express yourself in a very working-class fashion; and it is often rude and offensive. You don't display a wish to look into things too deeply, no patience, low boredom threshold before you just lash out in anger. The people who frequent the download websites are mostly like that too. I don't get on with them. There's a cultural gap between us (a "class barrier" to use old, non-PC language). If I start a conversation with one of them it doesn't take too long before we've nothing more to say to each other. We are traditional enemies; and we tread separate pathways through life. When we're forced by circumstances into being together for any length of time, it's more likely that we'll end up fighting than seeing the heart of each other. They blame me, I blame them. That old cultural divide. There are a lot of people like that. I try and respect their cultural norms as best I can (that's my political ideals taking a driving-seat) but, as I said, mutual misunderstanding and fighting often result. I suspect this little missive will be like water off a duck's back. You won't relate to it as it goes out. You might encourage me with something like "exactly" or "quite agree" because you see me as a winner, but that won't bond us. You might have made one or more valid points if it weren't for the part about "middle-class intellectual", "best educations available", and the things that immediately followed. Ouch. That was about as arrogant and obnoxious as anything I've seen lately. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it came across to me. Fail. I don't always agree with the way Alias expresses himself, but I usually respect the points he makes. I can much more easily overlook his rough language than I can someone who elevates himself like I saw above. Not that my opinion matters, of course. Find it difficult to breathe in the higher airs of intellectuality, eh Char? Well, I don't. I can read Plato and Aristotle in Greek, and have papers to prove it. It takes a high degree of humility to learn. You have to acknowledge that there's something you don't know, and be prepared to reach for it. Most people throw up the self-defence shields too early; accuse the would-be teacher of overbearing arrogance. Class-barriers. Incidentally I feel delighted at Alias' reply below. He's actually entered the same cultural space at which I output to him. He's been in this group much longer than I have, and I had exchanges with him early on, all of which gave me a suspicion that he wasn't rejecting me. He's more bitter than I am, but I've noticed about him before something that I respect highly; integrity of personality that comes with having fought well against life's knocks, and having found the better part in yourself. See you, Ed |
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Classic Shell
On Wed, 09 Oct 2013 14:15:26 +0100, Ed Cryer wrote:
Find it difficult to breathe in the higher airs of intellectuality, eh Char? Well, I don't. I can read Plato and Aristotle in Greek, and have papers to prove it. My advice? You're in a hole. Put down the shovel and stop digging. It takes a high degree of humility to learn. I'm not sure you're qualified to be talking about humility. ;-) -- Char Jackson |
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