Surprised!

99% of users have no need for Java, and it does pose a measurable security
problem. That said, Java has a legitimate purpose, it's just that its days of
being used by websites are largely over. If you use OpenOffice you may need
Java, but even so you can disable the browser plugin in the settings, or by
editing the FF config file greprefs\all.js if you want to stop people
re-enabling it.

As opposed to toolbars which are an attempt to foist stuff onto the user,
and almost always for reasons which are not in the user's interest.

"98 Guy" wrote:

glee wrote:

Although it would be nice if no updates were installed by any
company to any software but their own, it can't work out that
way.

Yes, it can work that way. Microsoft wanted to do what-ever it could to
insure that Firefox users might at least stumble upon Bing as a search
option as they used their browser, thereby increasing there market share
of the search market and increase their advertizing revenue.

Give me one example of how any of Sun's wayward or inappropiate updates
were designed to accomplish the same end.

It amazes me that people get up in arms over a browser add-on that
supports an installed toolbar from Microsoft,

How can you say that, when Microsoft is now admitting that they made a
mistake as to how the update applied itself?

Of course we should be up-in-arms about these instances, because if we
are not, Microsoft will become accustomed to doing them more often.

---------------
Microsoft explains mystery Firefox extension, "fixes" update:

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/new...s-update-1.ars

"In other words, the update will no longer be distributed to toolbars
that it shouldn't be added to."
---------------

It's too late for those systems that have already performed the last WU
session. This particular "update" does not show up in Control Panel =
Programs and Features = Installed Updates. Furthermore, the Uninstall
button for the extension is greyed out in Firefox.

Ya sure, you say that it could have been a simple configuration mistake
for it to apply itself to Firefox when firefox has NO
previously-installed msn or bing tool bar (who cares if the user's IE
has such a tool bar - that doesn't mean the update should also install
itself on Firefox if the user did not install an MS-based tool bar or
add-on for Firefox).

But when the update intentionally removes the mechanism to allow the
user to delete or uninstall it, and when MS classifies the update as
"important", then all together this points to intent to plant a Bing
search option on the Firefox settings panel that Microsoft hopes for
casual users to stumble upon it and turn it on. Their motive was purely
financial. Microsoft's mindset surrounding this update came purely from
their sales and marketing divisions. It was no mistake the way this was
rolled out by Macro$haft.
.

Anteaus top-poasted and full-quoted:

99% of users have no need for Java, and it does pose a measurable
security problem.

I've got some IP web-cams that use java when accessed with non-ie web
browser.

For web-based device command and control you're going to need java.
Your only other option is activex and IE.

Anteaus top-poasted and full-quoted:

99% of users have no need for Java, and it does pose a measurable
security problem.

I've got some IP web-cams that use java when accessed with non-ie web
browser.

For web-based device command and control you're going to need java.
Your only other option is activex and IE.

"98 Guy" wrote in message ...
glee wrote:

Although it would be nice if no updates were installed by any
company to any software but their own, it can't work out that
way.

Yes, it can work that way. Microsoft wanted to do what-ever it could
to
insure that Firefox users might at least stumble upon Bing as a search
option as they used their browser, thereby increasing there market
share
of the search market and increase their advertizing revenue.

Give me one example of how any of Sun's wayward or inappropiate
updates
were designed to accomplish the same end.

It amazes me that people get up in arms over a browser add-on that
supports an installed toolbar from Microsoft,

How can you say that, when Microsoft is now admitting that they made a
mistake as to how the update applied itself?

Of course we should be up-in-arms about these instances, because if we
are not, Microsoft will become accustomed to doing them more often.

---------------
Microsoft explains mystery Firefox extension, "fixes" update:

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/new...s-update-1.ars

"In other words, the update will no longer be distributed to toolbars
that it shouldn't be added to."
---------------

It's too late for those systems that have already performed the last
WU
session. This particular "update" does not show up in Control Panel
=
Programs and Features = Installed Updates. Furthermore, the Uninstall
button for the extension is greyed out in Firefox.

Ya sure, you say that it could have been a simple configuration
mistake
for it to apply itself to Firefox when firefox has NO
previously-installed msn or bing tool bar (who cares if the user's IE
has such a tool bar - that doesn't mean the update should also install
itself on Firefox if the user did not install an MS-based tool bar or
add-on for Firefox).

But when the update intentionally removes the mechanism to allow the
user to delete or uninstall it, and when MS classifies the update as
"important", then all together this points to intent to plant a Bing
search option on the Firefox settings panel that Microsoft hopes for
casual users to stumble upon it and turn it on. Their motive was
purely
financial. Microsoft's mindset surrounding this update came purely
from
their sales and marketing divisions. It was no mistake the way this
was
rolled out by Macro$haft.

You seem to have a reading comprehension problem.
As usual, you excerpt one line from the article:
"In other words, the update will no longer be distributed to toolbars
that it shouldn't be added to."
but you leave out the other lines that describe what toolbars they refer
to.

"...we discovered a bug in the latest update that was installing the
Firefox extension for users with the Windows Live Toolbar and MSN
Toolbar (specifically people who have not upgraded to the latest version
of the Bing Bar). We fixed the update so that going forward folks who
still have only the older Windows Live Toolbar or MSN Toolbar will not
see this behavior anymore. The extension in Firefox will be update[d]
for users who have the Bing Bar or the latest version of MSN Toolbar
(version 4.0), since both are available for both IE and FF."

The add-on is STILL going to added to Firefox for users who have the
Bing Bar or the latest version of MSN Toolbar installed on the *system*,
whether or not it is installed in Firefox.

The update is NOT digging into the individual user profiles of Firefox
to see if the toolbar is installed or enabled...it only updates the
Microsoft folder for the toolbar in the Programs Files folder. This is
less intrusive and prevents snooping into the Firefox profile folder
tree. I already stated this in my earlier reply.....you are only
excerpting the portions that suit your argument, and selectively
ignoring anything that does not support your aim, which in NOT to look
at the whole picture, but to feed your desire to bash Microsoft
regardless of the facts.

Microsoft also supplied info on how to remove the update, so no, it's
not "too late" for those who already installed the update.

Your claim that it was Microsoft's "intent to plant a Bing search option
on the Firefox settings panel that Microsoft hopes for casual users to
stumble upon it and turn it on" is fairly ridiculous. If the Bing
toolbar is not installed in Firefox, the add-on wouldn't do
anything....it just sits there in the add-on list.

You stated:
Give me one example of how any of Sun's wayward or inappropiate
updates
were designed to accomplish the same end.

Well now, Sun doesn't make their own toolbar or search engine, do they?
So they can't make an update that does the same thing. Big whoopee.
What they do, and have done for years, is every time they make a Java
update available (which are almost always security updates to fix
vulnerabilities in their software), is add to their Java update an
installer for a toolbar (at one time it was the Google toolbar or Yahoo
bar, recently it's been the Bing bar) with the option to install it
ALREADY CHECKMARKED, appearing in the middle of the installation
routine, where most users do not even notice it, so it is installed
without their realizing it. Why? Because Sun get paid to add that
installer to their update, thereby increasing Sun's revenue by sneaking
an installation of superfluous software into a security update. They
have in the past done the same with an OpenOffice installer instead of a
toolbar. IMO this is worse than what you are whining about....adding
unrelated software installations already checkmarked to install, to a
security update.

I am wasting my time here, as long as your ultimate goal is to bash a
company rather than examine facts objectively. I am not defending the
update and especially not the way it was put out, but I am looking at
the scope of what it does and why. You have already decided Microsoft
is evil and everything they do is nefarious....yet you ignore similar
activity by Sun, and other companies. The Google and Yahoo toolbar
installer and updaters, as well as others, do worse, but you'll overlook
that because it doesn't further your goal of attacking MS. Your lame
tactics get old quick....
--
Glen Ventura, MS MVP Oct. 2002 - Sept. 2009
A+
http://dts-l.net/

"98 Guy" wrote in message ...
glee wrote:

Although it would be nice if no updates were installed by any
company to any software but their own, it can't work out that
way.

Yes, it can work that way. Microsoft wanted to do what-ever it could
to
insure that Firefox users might at least stumble upon Bing as a search
option as they used their browser, thereby increasing there market
share
of the search market and increase their advertizing revenue.

Give me one example of how any of Sun's wayward or inappropiate
updates
were designed to accomplish the same end.

It amazes me that people get up in arms over a browser add-on that
supports an installed toolbar from Microsoft,

How can you say that, when Microsoft is now admitting that they made a
mistake as to how the update applied itself?

Of course we should be up-in-arms about these instances, because if we
are not, Microsoft will become accustomed to doing them more often.

---------------
Microsoft explains mystery Firefox extension, "fixes" update:

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/new...s-update-1.ars

"In other words, the update will no longer be distributed to toolbars
that it shouldn't be added to."
---------------

It's too late for those systems that have already performed the last
WU
session. This particular "update" does not show up in Control Panel
=
Programs and Features = Installed Updates. Furthermore, the Uninstall
button for the extension is greyed out in Firefox.

Ya sure, you say that it could have been a simple configuration
mistake
for it to apply itself to Firefox when firefox has NO
previously-installed msn or bing tool bar (who cares if the user's IE
has such a tool bar - that doesn't mean the update should also install
itself on Firefox if the user did not install an MS-based tool bar or
add-on for Firefox).

But when the update intentionally removes the mechanism to allow the
user to delete or uninstall it, and when MS classifies the update as
"important", then all together this points to intent to plant a Bing
search option on the Firefox settings panel that Microsoft hopes for
casual users to stumble upon it and turn it on. Their motive was
purely
financial. Microsoft's mindset surrounding this update came purely
from
their sales and marketing divisions. It was no mistake the way this
was
rolled out by Macro$haft.

You seem to have a reading comprehension problem.
As usual, you excerpt one line from the article:
"In other words, the update will no longer be distributed to toolbars
that it shouldn't be added to."
but you leave out the other lines that describe what toolbars they refer
to.

"...we discovered a bug in the latest update that was installing the
Firefox extension for users with the Windows Live Toolbar and MSN
Toolbar (specifically people who have not upgraded to the latest version
of the Bing Bar). We fixed the update so that going forward folks who
still have only the older Windows Live Toolbar or MSN Toolbar will not
see this behavior anymore. The extension in Firefox will be update[d]
for users who have the Bing Bar or the latest version of MSN Toolbar
(version 4.0), since both are available for both IE and FF."

The add-on is STILL going to added to Firefox for users who have the
Bing Bar or the latest version of MSN Toolbar installed on the *system*,
whether or not it is installed in Firefox.

The update is NOT digging into the individual user profiles of Firefox
to see if the toolbar is installed or enabled...it only updates the
Microsoft folder for the toolbar in the Programs Files folder. This is
less intrusive and prevents snooping into the Firefox profile folder
tree. I already stated this in my earlier reply.....you are only
excerpting the portions that suit your argument, and selectively
ignoring anything that does not support your aim, which in NOT to look
at the whole picture, but to feed your desire to bash Microsoft
regardless of the facts.

Microsoft also supplied info on how to remove the update, so no, it's
not "too late" for those who already installed the update.

Your claim that it was Microsoft's "intent to plant a Bing search option
on the Firefox settings panel that Microsoft hopes for casual users to
stumble upon it and turn it on" is fairly ridiculous. If the Bing
toolbar is not installed in Firefox, the add-on wouldn't do
anything....it just sits there in the add-on list.

You stated:
Give me one example of how any of Sun's wayward or inappropiate
updates
were designed to accomplish the same end.

Well now, Sun doesn't make their own toolbar or search engine, do they?
So they can't make an update that does the same thing. Big whoopee.
What they do, and have done for years, is every time they make a Java
update available (which are almost always security updates to fix
vulnerabilities in their software), is add to their Java update an
installer for a toolbar (at one time it was the Google toolbar or Yahoo
bar, recently it's been the Bing bar) with the option to install it
ALREADY CHECKMARKED, appearing in the middle of the installation
routine, where most users do not even notice it, so it is installed
without their realizing it. Why? Because Sun get paid to add that
installer to their update, thereby increasing Sun's revenue by sneaking
an installation of superfluous software into a security update. They
have in the past done the same with an OpenOffice installer instead of a
toolbar. IMO this is worse than what you are whining about....adding
unrelated software installations already checkmarked to install, to a
security update.

I am wasting my time here, as long as your ultimate goal is to bash a
company rather than examine facts objectively. I am not defending the
update and especially not the way it was put out, but I am looking at
the scope of what it does and why. You have already decided Microsoft
is evil and everything they do is nefarious....yet you ignore similar
activity by Sun, and other companies. The Google and Yahoo toolbar
installer and updaters, as well as others, do worse, but you'll overlook
that because it doesn't further your goal of attacking MS. Your lame
tactics get old quick....
--
Glen Ventura, MS MVP Oct. 2002 - Sept. 2009
A+
http://dts-l.net/

I'm not a fan of toolbars, and many are foisted upon the user without
their realizing it, during an installation (see Sun Java's
already-checked option to install the Bing bar during a Java update, or
the Yahoo toolbar and Companion and whatever else they add to a system
now). But many users do consciously install certain toolbars because
they do provide options the user wants.....I suspect a large number of
Google toolbar installations are conscious decisions, or at least they
were a few years ago....

It's debatable whether Java serves a useful purpose...it runs Java
applets in the browser, but there are others ways to accomplish what
Java does. I can go months without ever using Java in my browsers, and
there's considerably more risk involved with Java than with many
toolbars. {shrug}

....glen


"Anteaus" wrote in message
...
99% of users have no need for Java, and it does pose a measurable
security
problem. That said, Java has a legitimate purpose, it's just that its
days of
being used by websites are largely over. If you use OpenOffice you may
need
Java, but even so you can disable the browser plugin in the settings,
or by
editing the FF config file greprefs\all.js if you want to stop people
re-enabling it.

As opposed to toolbars which are an attempt to foist stuff onto the
user,
and almost always for reasons which are not in the user's interest.

"98 Guy" wrote:

glee wrote:

Although it would be nice if no updates were installed by any
company to any software but their own, it can't work out that
way.

Yes, it can work that way. Microsoft wanted to do what-ever it could
to
insure that Firefox users might at least stumble upon Bing as a
search
option as they used their browser, thereby increasing there market
share
of the search market and increase their advertizing revenue.

Give me one example of how any of Sun's wayward or inappropiate
updates
were designed to accomplish the same end.

It amazes me that people get up in arms over a browser add-on that
supports an installed toolbar from Microsoft,

How can you say that, when Microsoft is now admitting that they made
a
mistake as to how the update applied itself?

Of course we should be up-in-arms about these instances, because if
we
are not, Microsoft will become accustomed to doing them more often.

---------------
Microsoft explains mystery Firefox extension, "fixes" update:

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/new...s-update-1.ars

"In other words, the update will no longer be distributed to toolbars
that it shouldn't be added to."
---------------

It's too late for those systems that have already performed the last
WU
session. This particular "update" does not show up in Control Panel
=
Programs and Features = Installed Updates. Furthermore, the
Uninstall
button for the extension is greyed out in Firefox.

Ya sure, you say that it could have been a simple configuration
mistake
for it to apply itself to Firefox when firefox has NO
previously-installed msn or bing tool bar (who cares if the user's IE
has such a tool bar - that doesn't mean the update should also
install
itself on Firefox if the user did not install an MS-based tool bar or
add-on for Firefox).

But when the update intentionally removes the mechanism to allow the
user to delete or uninstall it, and when MS classifies the update as
"important", then all together this points to intent to plant a Bing
search option on the Firefox settings panel that Microsoft hopes for
casual users to stumble upon it and turn it on. Their motive was
purely
financial. Microsoft's mindset surrounding this update came purely
from
their sales and marketing divisions. It was no mistake the way this
was
rolled out by Macro$haft.
.

I'm not a fan of toolbars, and many are foisted upon the user without
their realizing it, during an installation (see Sun Java's
already-checked option to install the Bing bar during a Java update, or
the Yahoo toolbar and Companion and whatever else they add to a system
now). But many users do consciously install certain toolbars because
they do provide options the user wants.....I suspect a large number of
Google toolbar installations are conscious decisions, or at least they
were a few years ago....

It's debatable whether Java serves a useful purpose...it runs Java
applets in the browser, but there are others ways to accomplish what
Java does. I can go months without ever using Java in my browsers, and
there's considerably more risk involved with Java than with many
toolbars. {shrug}

....glen


"Anteaus" wrote in message
...
99% of users have no need for Java, and it does pose a measurable
security
problem. That said, Java has a legitimate purpose, it's just that its
days of
being used by websites are largely over. If you use OpenOffice you may
need
Java, but even so you can disable the browser plugin in the settings,
or by
editing the FF config file greprefs\all.js if you want to stop people
re-enabling it.

As opposed to toolbars which are an attempt to foist stuff onto the
user,
and almost always for reasons which are not in the user's interest.

"98 Guy" wrote:

glee wrote:

Although it would be nice if no updates were installed by any
company to any software but their own, it can't work out that
way.

Yes, it can work that way. Microsoft wanted to do what-ever it could
to
insure that Firefox users might at least stumble upon Bing as a
search
option as they used their browser, thereby increasing there market
share
of the search market and increase their advertizing revenue.

Give me one example of how any of Sun's wayward or inappropiate
updates
were designed to accomplish the same end.

It amazes me that people get up in arms over a browser add-on that
supports an installed toolbar from Microsoft,

How can you say that, when Microsoft is now admitting that they made
a
mistake as to how the update applied itself?

Of course we should be up-in-arms about these instances, because if
we
are not, Microsoft will become accustomed to doing them more often.

---------------
Microsoft explains mystery Firefox extension, "fixes" update:

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/new...s-update-1.ars

"In other words, the update will no longer be distributed to toolbars
that it shouldn't be added to."
---------------

It's too late for those systems that have already performed the last
WU
session. This particular "update" does not show up in Control Panel
=
Programs and Features = Installed Updates. Furthermore, the
Uninstall
button for the extension is greyed out in Firefox.

Ya sure, you say that it could have been a simple configuration
mistake
for it to apply itself to Firefox when firefox has NO
previously-installed msn or bing tool bar (who cares if the user's IE
has such a tool bar - that doesn't mean the update should also
install
itself on Firefox if the user did not install an MS-based tool bar or
add-on for Firefox).

But when the update intentionally removes the mechanism to allow the
user to delete or uninstall it, and when MS classifies the update as
"important", then all together this points to intent to plant a Bing
search option on the Firefox settings panel that Microsoft hopes for
casual users to stumble upon it and turn it on. Their motive was
purely
financial. Microsoft's mindset surrounding this update came purely
from
their sales and marketing divisions. It was no mistake the way this
was
rolled out by Macro$haft.
.

snipped for length concerns


Thanks for the link, Dan.....at least it gives a little more info on
what the update is for.

Although it would be nice if no updates were installed by any company to
any software but their own, it can't work out that way. If Sun Java is
installed, components have to be added to the installed web browsers,
because Java will be implemented in those browsers. In this case, a
toolbar is installed in the browser, and updates to that toolbar may add
components to the browser.
The two most prevalent browser toolbars, Google Toolbar and Yahoo
Toolbar, add items not only to the browsers but also to Windows startup
axis, run regular updaters, and if enabled send info back to Google or
Yahoo....and no one finds this intrusive?
It amazes me that people get up in arms over a browser add-on that
supports an installed toolbar from Microsoft, but ignore similar or
worse behavior from Sun, Google or Yahoo.
--
Glen Ventura, MS MVP Oct. 2002 - Sept. 2009
A+
http://dts-l.net/


Your welcome, Glen. Well, I removed the update manually from Mozilla
Firefox by removing the extension pack from Vista. Anyway, I searched
through the registry as well and did not see anything amiss.

snipped for length concerns


Thanks for the link, Dan.....at least it gives a little more info on
what the update is for.

Although it would be nice if no updates were installed by any company to
any software but their own, it can't work out that way. If Sun Java is
installed, components have to be added to the installed web browsers,
because Java will be implemented in those browsers. In this case, a
toolbar is installed in the browser, and updates to that toolbar may add
components to the browser.
The two most prevalent browser toolbars, Google Toolbar and Yahoo
Toolbar, add items not only to the browsers but also to Windows startup
axis, run regular updaters, and if enabled send info back to Google or
Yahoo....and no one finds this intrusive?
It amazes me that people get up in arms over a browser add-on that
supports an installed toolbar from Microsoft, but ignore similar or
worse behavior from Sun, Google or Yahoo.
--
Glen Ventura, MS MVP Oct. 2002 - Sept. 2009
A+
http://dts-l.net/


Your welcome, Glen. Well, I removed the update manually from Mozilla
Firefox by removing the extension pack from Vista. Anyway, I searched
through the registry as well and did not see anything amiss.

"glee" wrote in message
...
I'm not a fan of toolbars, and many are foisted upon the user without
their realizing it, during an installation (see Sun Java's already-checked
option to install the Bing bar during a Java update, or the Yahoo toolbar
and Companion and whatever else they add to a system now). But many users
do consciously install certain toolbars because they do provide options
the user wants.....I suspect a large number of Google toolbar
installations are conscious decisions, or at least they were a few years
ago....


Most of the people I ask about the tool bars on thier computer don't know
what a tool bar is let alone how they(plural) got on thier system. Of course
they also don't know about all the junk, running for years, that the OEM
burdened them with either. Not talking about the kind of people that follow
newsgroups though. The people that don't know greatly out number those that
do. Probably legal for car mfg to taxi people around in the trunk of cars
they've sold without the owner knowing too. :^b

"glee" wrote in message
...
I'm not a fan of toolbars, and many are foisted upon the user without
their realizing it, during an installation (see Sun Java's already-checked
option to install the Bing bar during a Java update, or the Yahoo toolbar
and Companion and whatever else they add to a system now). But many users
do consciously install certain toolbars because they do provide options
the user wants.....I suspect a large number of Google toolbar
installations are conscious decisions, or at least they were a few years
ago....


Most of the people I ask about the tool bars on thier computer don't know
what a tool bar is let alone how they(plural) got on thier system. Of course
they also don't know about all the junk, running for years, that the OEM
burdened them with either. Not talking about the kind of people that follow
newsgroups though. The people that don't know greatly out number those that
do. Probably legal for car mfg to taxi people around in the trunk of cars
they've sold without the owner knowing too. :^b

14 Jun 2010,"T Shadow" in
:

Probably legal for car mfg to taxi people around in the trunk of
cars they've sold without the owner knowing too. :^b


don't think that would work for long unless they seal the bags really well :-)

14 Jun 2010,"T Shadow" in
:

Probably legal for car mfg to taxi people around in the trunk of
cars they've sold without the owner knowing too. :^b


don't think that would work for long unless they seal the bags really well :-)

snip

BTW, here is the official Microsoft website on removing the add-on.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2237744

snip

BTW, here is the official Microsoft website on removing the add-on.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2237744