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Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 1st 18, 02:26 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
R Radev
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Posts: 7
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

If I go to https://StartPaqe.com
using a proxy web browser such as Opera
on Windows 7
and then search for "abc def"
and then go to web site https://web1.com

What does each of the peoples see?
~ I think https://web1.com obtain only the Opera Proxy IP Address
~ I think Start Page obtain only the search "abc def"
~ I think Opera Proxy Site Domain only see encryption messes?
~ I think ISP obtain only Opera Proxy IP Address

But is that correct?
What do each of these see?
~ Domain visited from a StartPage click
~ Startpage where the search was run and the link click
~ Opera Proxy Site Domain
~ Local ISP
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  #2  
Old September 1st 18, 10:07 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
JJ[_11_]
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Posts: 744
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 04:26:10 +0300, R Radev wrote:
If I go to https://StartPaqe.com
using a proxy web browser such as Opera
on Windows 7
and then search for "abc def"
and then go to web site https://web1.com

What does each of the peoples see?
~ I think https://web1.com obtain only the Opera Proxy IP Address
~ I think Start Page obtain only the search "abc def"
~ I think Opera Proxy Site Domain only see encryption messes?
~ I think ISP obtain only Opera Proxy IP Address

But is that correct?
What do each of these see?
~ Domain visited from a StartPage click
~ Startpage where the search was run and the link click
~ Opera Proxy Site Domain
~ Local ISP


As long as you use "https://", Opera proxy will only see you connecting to
that site. They won't know what keywords you used to perform a search, or
which page you're visiting on that site.

Ans as long as you use Opera proxy, your ISP will only see you connected to
Opera proxy server. They won't know which site you're visiting, and which
page you're seeing.
  #3  
Old September 1st 18, 02:21 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
R Radev
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Posts: 7
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

JJ - 2018/09/01


As long as you use "https://", Opera proxy will only see you connecting to
that site. They won't know what keywords you used to perform a search, or
which page you're visiting on that site.

Ans as long as you use Opera proxy, your ISP will only see you connected to
Opera proxy server. They won't know which site you're visiting, and which
page you're seeing.


Thank you. One more detail may I please ask?

If I search for "abc def" on the httpS://StartPage.com, and if the
StartPage.com web site shows three sites in their search (abc.com, def.com,
ghi.com), and if all three sites are "httpS://" sites, if I then VISIT
those three sites by clicking on the StartPage links, then what does Opera
see?

As example:
httpS://abc.com
httpS://def.com
httpS://ghi.com

Does Opera also see that I visited those three httpS sites?
Or does only StartPage see that I visitied those three httpS sites?
  #4  
Old September 2nd 18, 01:43 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
JJ[_11_]
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Posts: 744
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 16:21:12 +0300, R Radev wrote:

If I search for "abc def" on the httpS://StartPage.com, and if the
StartPage.com web site shows three sites in their search (abc.com, def.com,
ghi.com), and if all three sites are "httpS://" sites, if I then VISIT
those three sites by clicking on the StartPage links, then what does Opera
see?

As example:
httpS://abc.com
httpS://def.com
httpS://ghi.com

Does Opera also see that I visited those three httpS sites?


Yes, because you're connecting to those sites with the help of Opera proxy.

Or does only StartPage see that I visitied those three httpS sites?


StartPage won't know which sites you'll visit when you click one of the
search result.

Search engine such as Google will know which one you've clicked because the
search results are made to point to Google's redirector page, which in turn
will direct your browser to the chosen site. StartPage doesn't do this,
fortunately.
  #5  
Old September 2nd 18, 08:21 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
R Radev
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Posts: 7
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

JJ - 2018/09/02


Does Opera also see that I visited those three httpS sites?


Yes, because you're connecting to those sites with the help of Opera proxy.


Thank you for explaining that Opera sees every https link in the clear when
I click on those links from the httpS StartPage results.

Or does only StartPage see that I visitied those three httpS sites?


StartPage won't know which sites you'll visit when you click one of the
search result.


Wowee! This is very unexpected information!

I would THINK that StartPage "could" see every link we click on.
Perhaps StartPage is DESIGNED NOT to see (and save) every link we click?

Search engine such as Google will know which one you've clicked because the
search results are made to point to Google's redirector page, which in turn
will direct your browser to the chosen site. StartPage doesn't do this,
fortunately.


Wowee. I EXPECTED the search engine like DuckDuckGo or StartPage to SEE the
links you clicked on, so it is a PLEASANT suprise that they do not!

I expect Google to track everything which is why, of course, I use
StartPage or DuckDuckGo or epicsearch.in to search instead of Google.

Are all the main "privacy" search engines set up to NOT know what we click?
- EpicSearch.in ?
- StartPage
- DuckDuckGo ?
  #6  
Old September 2nd 18, 09:47 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
R.Wieser
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Posts: 1,302
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

R,

Thank you for explaining that Opera sees every https link in the clear
when I click on those links from the httpS StartPage results.


*Ofcourse* it does. Just as you initial request for StartPage whas
automatically redirected thru the Opera proxy, so will all other connections
be. Up until you tell your browser not to use a proxy anymore ofcourse.

Wowee! This is very unexpected information!


Not really (read on)

I would THINK that StartPage "could" see every link we click on.


How ?

When we ignore the Opera proxy for the moment, clicking on the abc.org link
will connect you to that website, and that one alone*. There is nothing
in that link that tells it to (also) connect to StartPage.com.

*keeping it simple here.

... Though JJ mentioned a "trick" which Google uses, and that is to construct
the URL in such a way that Google is connected to with a the request for the
actual site attached as an argument. Like this:

www.google.com/url?q=https://www.abc.org

If first goes to www.google.com, which than sees "url/?q=", and as a result
returns the part after that as a redirect instruction to your browser.
Rather sneaky.

StartPage *could* do the same thing, and by it see which sites you choose
from its results to visit.

In FireFox (and I assume most other browsers too) you can put the mouse over
the link to see where it actually points to. A quick peek shows StartPage
doesn't seem to use Googles trick.

Perhaps StartPage is DESIGNED NOT to see (and save) every link we click?


Its the other way around: It needs to do extra work to make that Google
trick happen.

And FYI:. there are FireFox plugins available which will scrub Googles
tricky links back to its simple, and direct form.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser


  #7  
Old September 3rd 18, 05:50 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
R Radev
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Posts: 7
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

"R.Wieser" - 2018/09/02


I would THINK that StartPage "could" see every link we click on.

When we ignore the Opera proxy for the moment, clicking on the abc.org link
will connect you to that website, and that one alone*. There is nothing
in that link that tells it to (also) connect to StartPage.com.


I don't understand this stuff so it just seemed "natural" to me that if I
clicked on a link at StartPage, that StartPage would "know" I clicked on
that link.

While the StartPage results are "dynamic", let's assume for a moment that
it's a static web page - so I can explain how I thought it worked.

If Startpage had a static page on their web site (pointing to abc.com), and
I clicked on that link in that static page on the StartPage domain (which
pointed to abc.com), why wouldn't Startpage KNOW that I clicked in their
own link (to abc.com) on their own web page?

That's how I THOUGHT it worked. But that's also why I asked.
Because I didn't know how it works.

So if STartpage does NOT know that I clicked on their own link (to
abc.com), that's great.

So it's only Opera that knows I clicked on a link to abc.com.

The part about the Opera that confuses me is that the link to abc.com is
encrypted, so it's to httpS://abc.com, where I'm not sure what Opera sees.

Do they see just gibberish such that all Opera knows is that I went to the
DOMAIN abc.com? Or does Opera know that I went to the location on
httpS://abc.com that resolves to, oh, let's say
httpS://abc.com/red/polka/dot/sizeXXXL/underwear.txt

Given that the abc.com link is encrypted, how much of that transaction of
buying red polka dot underwear does Opera know about?

.. Though JJ mentioned a "trick" which Google uses, and that is to construct
the URL in such a way that Google is connected to with a the request for the
actual site attached as an argument. Like this:
www.google.com/url?q=https://www.abc.org


That sucks. Thanks for warning me. I knew Google wasn't to be trusted but I
didn't realize that it's different for StartPage.

Is DuckDuck go like StartPage that way?
(I would hope so.)

If first goes to www.google.com, which than sees "url/?q=", and as a result
returns the part after that as a redirect instruction to your browser.
Rather sneaky.


That sucks.
By habit, I try to only use Google searches only when all others fail.

What are good privacy based search engines?
I don't know. But I know of only three:
1. StartPage
2. DuckDuckGo
3. EpicPrivacySearch

Any others?

StartPage *could* do the same thing, and by it see which sites you choose
from its results to visit.


Since StartPage is billed as a "privacy" search engine, let's hope they
don't do what Google does!

In FireFox (and I assume most other browsers too) you can put the mouse over
the link to see where it actually points to. A quick peek shows StartPage
doesn't seem to use Googles trick.


Thanks for checking that out on StartPage.
I just ran this search and that trick on Duckduckgo.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=red+polka+...derwear&ia=web

If I ran that test correctly, it seems that DuckDuckGo doesn't do the refer
URL either.

Neither does the Epic Private Search (if I ran the test right).
https://epicsearch.in/search?&q=red+polka+dot+underwear

Perhaps StartPage is DESIGNED NOT to see (and save) every link we click?


Its the other way around: It needs to do extra work to make that Google
trick happen.


On the back end, I'm curious how much Opera sees in an encrypted link.

If I go to httpS://abc.com and buy red polka dot underwear in size XXXXL,
how much of THAT transaction can Opera see in the clear?

And FYI:. there are FireFox plugins available which will scrub Googles
tricky links back to its simple, and direct form.


This is good to know. Thanks!
  #8  
Old September 3rd 18, 10:46 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
R.Wieser
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Posts: 1,302
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

R,

If Startpage had a static page on their web site (pointing to abc.com),
and I clicked on that link in that static page on the StartPage domain
(which pointed to abc.com), why wouldn't Startpage KNOW that I clicked in
their own link (to abc.com) on their own web page?


First of, the trick would not work for dynamic pages, as (AFAIK) your
browser does not want to retrieve dynamic data (XML requests and all that)
from any other domain than the webpages the request is done from (a build-in
security measure).

As for static webpages ? They work alike real-world letters (snailmail):
You ask StartPage and it returns a webpage, which is where your contact with
StartPage ends. Full stop. It has no knowledge what you do with that
information, not even if you are actually reading it.

Only when you click a link on it that points back to StartPage your browser
will again connect to it (the trick Google uses).

That's how I THOUGHT it worked. But that's also why I asked. Because I
didn't know how it works.


And as such you asked a good question. Nobody is born with knowledge like
that.

So it's only Opera that knows I clicked on a link to abc.com.


Yes, but only because *you* told your browser to use it as a proxy. You
don't *have* to use it.

The part about the Opera that confuses me is that the link to abc.com is
encrypted, so it's to httpS://abc.com, where I'm not sure what Opera sees.


Think again of a real-world letter: When you put it into the mail than how
can they deliver it to the intended receipient ? Yep, by way of the addres
you put on the outside of the envelope.

And that (IP) addres is all that the Opera proxy sees - otherwise it does
not know where it needs to go.

Do they see just gibberish such that all Opera knows is that I went to the
DOMAIN abc.com?


Yep.

Or does Opera know that I went to the location on httpS://abc.com that
resolves to, oh, let's say
httpS://abc.com/red/polka/dot/sizeXXXL/underwear.txt


Nope.

It gets even better: If the website is on a big computer it shares with lots
of other websites than the proxy does not even know which domain you are
visiting, as all it sees is the IP (the front door of a building), not the
domain name (the individual companies entry doors inside the building).

Given that the abc.com link is encrypted, how much of that transaction
of buying red polka dot underwear does Opera know about?


Other than that you visited a certain building ? Nothing. Just make
sure that the connection is httpS though.

That sucks. Thanks for warning me. I knew Google wasn't to be trusted


Its not really about tracking *you*, but more about them wanting to be able
to generate statistics about how popular certain links are (so they can be
placed higher in the search results).

And mind you, that you clicked that link is *all* they can see: after it
your connection is directly with the intended website.

but I didn't realize that it's different for StartPage.


:-) Its rather possible (understatement) that StartPage just queries a big
search engine itself, and than delivers the results back to you.

In other words, the fact that SearchPage is able to display search results
in order of (an) importance is because they (effectivily) leech off of
ranking data others have helped to create, but do not contribute to
themselves...

Ever thought of that (and what would happen if they would get unranked
results back) ?

Is DuckDuck go like StartPage that way?
(I would hope so.)


Why do you ask ? You can easily check that yourself (just go there and put
your mouse over the links) ...

What are good privacy based search engines?
I don't know.


I have absolutily no idea either.

All I have is what those websites tell about them themselves (they *all* say
they won't screw you over, which therefore means nothing), what others say
about them (based on ... what exactly?), and what I can glean from their
search results.

And none of that means that they could not do nefarious stuff behind the
scenes, as I nor anyone else has any eyes into that.

In short, it all boils down on *assumptions* of what the different companies
will do with data they get from you in the process of doing business with
them (and I explicitily exclude actions that will purposely invade a persons
privacy here, like Evercookie and link-sniffing javascripts).

Also, take the different "we won't" assurances with a bit of salt -
especially the "we won't keep records about you" ones, as those may be
mandated *by Law* (to be able to back-track "terrorrists" and all that).

Since StartPage is billed as a "privacy" search engine, let's hope they
don't do what Google does!


Exactly that. You may hope, but you have zero certainty for (or against!)
it.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

P.s.
If you are privacy consious (which it certainly looks like :-) ) than also
take a look at which external resources a webpage you are visiting loads.
Spypixels, IFrames and scripts loaded from a plethora of third-party
servers, by which they can see you visiting that page (and with the aid of
cookies or other available methods, even that its a specific individual) ...

In short, (selectivily) blocking those external resources from being loaded
vastly inproves your privacy.
If you're interrested in doing that than FireFox has a plugin named
"RequestPolicy" for it.


  #9  
Old September 3rd 18, 12:58 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
JJ[_11_]
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Posts: 744
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

On Sun, 2 Sep 2018 22:47:04 +0200, R.Wieser wrote:

In FireFox (and I assume most other browsers too) you can put the mouse over
the link to see where it actually points to. A quick peek shows StartPage
doesn't seem to use Googles trick.


Google is actually more sneaky than any other search engines which uses
redirector page - if the JavaScript version of the page is used.

When the mouse is pointed to a search result link (e.g. abc.com), the
browser will show the real URL. Google changes the URL only when the link is
clicked. After that, it won't revert to the real URL until the page is
refreshed.

This can be tested by right-clicking the mouse on the link to open the
browser's popup menu, then press ESC or left-click empty space in order to
close the popup menu. Or click-and-drag the link to empty space. Then point
the mouse back to the link. It should now changed to Google's redirector
URL.
  #10  
Old September 3rd 18, 01:31 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
R Radev
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Posts: 7
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

"R.Wieser" - 2018/09/03

As for static webpages ? They work alike real-world letters (snailmail):
You ask StartPage and it returns a webpage, which is where your contact with
StartPage ends. Full stop. It has no knowledge what you do with that
information, not even if you are actually reading it.


I understand and believe what you say, but there are times when I open a
few web pages with videos in them, and then I click on all the videos since
my Internet connection is slow - and somehow the pages KNOW that I'm not
"focused" on them.

There's SOMETHING they know because the video will only play if I go back
to THAT web page, even though I clicked to play the video a half minute
earlier.

Somehow the web page KNOWS that I don't have that tab "open".

And that (IP) addres is all that the Opera proxy sees - otherwise it does
not know where it needs to go.


So if I search for, choose, and buy pink polka dot underwear in size XXL,
Opera only sees the URLs that are associated with that transaction.

It gets even better: If the website is on a big computer it shares with lots
of other websites than the proxy does not even know which domain you are
visiting, as all it sees is the IP (the front door of a building), not the
domain name (the individual companies entry doors inside the building).


That confuses me a bit. Since everything is going through Opera, it has to
see the URLs I think, based on what was said prior.

Is this talking about "cloudshare" stuff?
  #11  
Old September 3rd 18, 01:37 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
R Radev
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Posts: 7
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

JJ - 2018/09/03


This can be tested by right-clicking the mouse on the link to open the
browser's popup menu, then press ESC or left-click empty space in order to
close the popup menu. Or click-and-drag the link to empty space. Then point
the mouse back to the link. It should now changed to Google's redirector
URL.


Thank you for pointing that sneaky trick out which I can see happening.
I never knew this redirect stuff.

Do you know how web pages in tabs KNOW that you're focused on them?
Is that just a local thing or is that focus knowledge communicated to a
server?
  #12  
Old September 3rd 18, 03:18 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

"JJ" wrote

|
| When the mouse is pointed to a search result link (e.g. abc.com), the
| browser will show the real URL. Google changes the URL only when the link
is
| clicked. After that, it won't revert to the real URL until the page is
| refreshed.

Are you talking about the status bar text? Google
doesn't and can't change that unless you allow them
to do it with script. I see the whole seedy mess in
the status bar.
For that reason and others, I avoid Google in general.
When I do use them I often right-click - Copy Link
Location, then paste that into Notepad and retrieve
the real link, which is between "=" and the first
ampersand:

https://www.google.com/url?q=https:/... nYYVknCEE1Tj

URL: https://somewhere.com

There are sites online that detail the various
tracking codes, like ved, usg, etc, though not
all of them are known.

Also note, R Radev seems to be the latest
pseudonym for Arlen Holder, etc.


  #13  
Old September 3rd 18, 03:47 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
R.Wieser
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,302
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

R,

There's SOMETHING they know because the video will only play if I go back
to THAT web page, even though I clicked to play the video a half minute
earlier.


Thats easy to explain: Your browser stops retrieving more data, as it
assumes you actually want to see the movie (which is not a file but a
stream: you can't just save it do disk) *without* having to "rewind" to the
position where you switched away from it.

Somehow the web page KNOWS that I don't have that tab "open".


Nope, it does not. But it does see that you (your browser) is not asking
for more of the movies data.

Think of it like someone is handing you goods, and something else is
grabbing your attention. As long as you do not stretch your hands out to
accept more goods the other person won't (try to) hand you more. Its like
he's been put "on hold".

So if I search for, choose, and buy pink polka dot underwear in size XXL,
Opera only sees the URLs that are associated with that transaction.


It does not even see that: only the "street address" (the IP), and not even
the name of the person who's living there (the domain name).

That confuses me a bit. Since everything is going through Opera, it has to
see the URLs I think, based on what was said prior.


Well, yes and no.

To take the real-world letter (snail mail) again, you can't just send a
letter to "uncle bill" and expect it to arrive. You need to look up in
which country, city, street and number uncle bill lives, and put that on the
envelope (in fact, the aditional "to: uncle bil" on the envelope is not even
needed).

In the Internet world you need to do the same: you need to look up the IP
address of the domain you want to connect to. And that IP address is all
what matters and the Opera proxy sees.

Luckily that "what is the IP for SearchPage ?" is something the browser
silently does for you (using a service called Domain Name Service - DNS for
short).

The "yes and no" question just is if the DNS domain-resolving request *also*
goes thru that Opera proxy or not. Mostly not, but it fully depends on your
conputers/browsers configuration.

Is this talking about "cloudshare" stuff?


Nope, not by a long shot. The above is just "simple stuff" in regard to
that. :-)

Regards,
Rudy Wieser


  #14  
Old September 3rd 18, 04:02 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
R.Wieser
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,302
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

Mayayana,

Are you talking about the status bar text? Google
doesn't and can't change that unless you allow them
to do it with script.


Most people have JavaScript enabled, which, AFAIK, would make that well
posible.

I see the whole seedy mess in the status bar.


Same here. I do have scripting disabled though.

When I do use them I often right-click - Copy Link
Location, then paste that into Notepad and retrieve
the real link,


I'm running FireFox with the GreaseMonkey plugin installed, for which I've
written a small script to do it for all Google search page links. That way
I do not forget it. :-)

Also note, R Radev seems to be the latest
pseudonym for Arlen Holder, etc.


Hmmm... that would not be nice, leading us on like that. Thanks for
mentioning the possibility.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser.


  #15  
Old September 3rd 18, 04:59 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Is StartPage OK to hide search from Opera Proxy & ISP??????

"R.Wieser" wrote

| I see the whole seedy mess in the status bar.
|
| Same here. I do have scripting disabled though.
|

There is, actually, a setting to stop that:

dom.disable_window_status_change

A lot of the more sleazy javascript tricks can be
disabled while still enabling script. But of course, one
first needs an extension to make the status bar
visible again in the first place. One step forward,
two steps back, in the Mozilla tradition.


 




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