Atlantis Word Processor

On Sat, 8 Feb 2014 22:38:25 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| Apart from Mozilla FF or TB, I don't use any other open source products
| and I have no plans to change my habits.
|
| My website runs on Linux but it is maintained by my host and I have
| involvement with it.
|

My website also runs on Linux. I use Filezilla for
FTP. Do you use commercial software?

While I agree that a lot of OSS programs are projects
that are never finished (Linux, GIMP) or solid projects
that will always lack adequate GUI polish (7-Zip), I've
only bought two commercial products in the past
10 years or so: 1) BootIt for disk management and
disk imaging. 2) Corel Paint Shop Pro. Everything
else I use is either OSS or free. And all are the best
products I know of for the purpose. I'm willing to pay
for something that's worth it to me. I just don't see
such products. (I wouldn't touch anything from Adobe
or Symantec. And I don't like to use software that's
designed to call home without asking.)
The free products I use are *at least* adequate:

OSS:

Acrylic DNS
7-Zip
Filezilla (FTP)
Libre Office
SumatraPDF (which I was able to recompile, fairly easily,
to ignore PDF file restrictions)
VLC Media Player
Audacity (audio editor)

Free but not OSS:

IrfanView
HxD hex editor
CPUID
DVDFlick
Imgburn (CD/DVD writer)
Agent Ransack (Windows Find replacement)
Sysinternals utilities
Online Armor 4.0.0.15 for XP (last version before it was sold)
Private Firewall for Win7
(I don't use AV, but install Avast for people who's
PCs I manage.)

Someone who uses MS Office for work is likely to
say that Libre Office doesn't compare. I don't doubt
that's true. But Libre Office is free and opens all
versions of MS Office files. As a casual user who
only needs to occasionally print business cards,
receipts, contracts, etc. it's more than adequate.
And it allows me to open anything from any MS Office
user. If I wanted to do that with MS Office I'd have
to keep buying each [wildly overpriced] version. (It's
amazing how many MS Office users don't know how
to write even a simple note without firing up MS
Word, and then assume that everyone else can
easily open their docx file.)

The only thing I find I'm unable to really be satisfied
with is browsers. IE is not even worth critiquing. Chrome
is spyware from the biggest spyware company going.
Opera is out of the running. I've never tried Safari, but
I wouldn't have high hopes for anything from Apple.
They're not known for catering to end-user choice.

Firefox keeps changing. They get most of their money
from Google, and it shows. Gradually the flexibility and
privacy options have been disappearing. Every time I
update it takes more work to get the functionality back.
I'm finding that I'm ending up with "extension creep":
adding more and more extensions to get the functions
that used to be built in. A browser that requires numerous,
arcane prefs edits and a handful of add-ons in order to
work properly is a bad piece of software.

I've been using Pale Moon in general, but that's really just
a leaner version of Firefox, not a better one.

I keep thinking it's time for a new, honest browser to
appear, but nothing does. I suppose all the idealistic,
young, genius programmers are too busy diddling their
Facebook on their cellphones to think about Internet
browsing.


Very good post. Maybe you should crosspost to
alt.comp.freeware.

Wondering what you compiled SumatraPDF with. Site says "You'll
need Visual Studio 2012". I did not realize that DRM could be
switched off, I thought it was in some micro$oft library the program
used, and one of the reasons I was using other PDF-readers. Maybe I'll
just Ollydbg Sumatra. Write a binary patch if the code is +-
consistent through versions.

I also do not trust AVs anymore, specially the cloud-enabled
types, but I do recommend them for the clueless.

You forgot Nirsoft, and a text-editor (Notepad++), both
essential, IMHO.
And CPU_id (CPU-Z) and Imgburn both phone home (check your
logs)

Maybe we could start an about:config thread back in
alt.comp.freeware. To make Firefox freeware again. IE and Chrome are
built as malware, there is nothing that can be done to avoid the
spyware.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 11:51:34 +0700, Yvonne York
wrote:

On 05/02/14 18:35, Ken Springer wrote:

[snip]

I still want to give Linux a try, I even created a partition on my boot
drive for that. Haven't had time and energy to do it. I've read some
nice things about Netrunner (I think) and it's attempt to make switching
from Windows less painful. It's supposed to include Flash, Java, and
who knows what else.

Try
http://solydxk.com/
and be pleasantly surprised

I run LXDE on Wheezy (Debian 7.3). My old hardware runs it as
fast as XP(which I still use). Whatever floats your boat, I suppose.
Advice - NEVER use Ubuntu. You will be unlearning Linux. Best
to start with one of the classics.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote
in message

A *spreadsheet* is for data on which calculations are
anticipated. Granted, not _all_ the columns/rows will
have sums done on them - I've nothing against column and
row headings - but if _all_ you want is the _layout_,
don't use a spreadsheet. (VanguardLH [what's the origin
of that name by the way?] are for once in agreement on
something!)

Are you asking the origin of the word "spreadsheet"? If so, it pre-dates
computers. The first microcomputer spreadsheet was Visicalc,circa 1979. It
is still available, BTW.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

In message , VanguardLH
writes:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Is the HTML code it produces (a) standards-compliant (b) compact? I only
ask because I'm most unimpressed with what Word produces. Try the
following (change the {} to ):

{HTML}{HEAD}{/HEAD}
{BODY}
{FONT COLOR=RED}red}{/FONT}
{FONT COLOR=YELLOW}yellow{/FONT}
{/BODY}
{/HTML}

create that (e. g. in notepad), save it as colours.htm, load it into
Word, re-save it, look at the size, look at it in notepad ...

(I think Word's output might just be standards-compliant.)

Alas, while the FONT tag is easy to understand, W3 decided to deprecate
it in favor of the more complicated CSS method. The FONT tag isn't
supported in HTML5. You're supposed to now use CSS (well, whenever they
actually get around to ratifying HTML5 which looks to be around 2021).
Apparently they think HTML shouldn't be easy to decode.

Yes. I don't agree with the W3 - and am surprised that Sir T B-L has
anything to do with them on that matter. (Another one they "deprecate" -
I _hate_ that word, it smacks of smug superiority - is CENTER. Easy to
understand, you see.)

I _can_ see the point of CSSs - but _not_ that _all_ pages should use
them.

With MS Word, configure it (if possible) so NOT add all the Word-only
specific tags. HTML generated by Word will, by default, include a bunch
of tags that are non-standard (not true HTML tags) and only understood
by MS Word. All of it is fluff if your intention is to publish the
document outside of Word, like on a web server or to recipients who you
don't have a clue as to what client they use to view your document.

Not only Word-specific, but (and this applies to all machine-generated
HTML I've seen - Word isn't actually the worst) lots of _spurious_ code.
Some emails I've received, when I've saved them, have had ten or twenty
{DIV}{/DIV} tags, usually with virtually - or, in fact actually! -
nothing separating them; and, at least three sets of nested tables. Oh,
and they might have a single & n b s p ; inside lots of {DIV} and
{FONT} tags. (Come to think of it, they tend to include both {DIV} _and_
{FONT} tags, so they _aren't_ even doing away with FONT, just adding DIV
_as well_.

(And they rarely give more than a cursory nod to code indenting,
either.)

Alas, in the Word 2010 that I now have (had Word 2003 before), I cannot
find the option to omit Word-specific tags in HTML output files. There
was such an option back in Word 2003. In Word 2010, under Options -
Advanced - General - Web Option, I don't see this option. There is,
however, a "Rely on CSS for font formatting" option that is enabled by
default.
[]
Although Word used to have an option to omit its Word-specific tags from
a changed HTML document, I cannot find it in Word 2010 (which I haven't
used much since changing from Word 2003); however, any time you use Word
to edit an HTML document will result in a significant increase in size
and not just due to converting deprecated tags, like FONT to an over-
bloated CSS equivalent. It's just Microsoft's view that they own and
can control a technology in which they choose to participate late.

(-:

After some hunting around, and after still not finding the old option to
omit all the extraneous Word-specific tags from the .htm[l] file, I
noticed in the Save As dialog that you can select "Web Page Filtered".
That gets rid of all the Word-specific tags and meta-data. Word still

Useful - I'll try to remember it. Though I only have (imposed, of
course) Word 2010 at work, where I don't generate any HTML (any I
generate for unofficial purposes I do with Notepad or 1-word; I think
for corporate webpage generation, some bloated style-thing is imposed on
us, that is even worse).

converts the deprecated tags (FONT) to CSS to define a class that gets
used as an attribute in the p paragraph tag so the file will still get
larger but this time the 125-byte simple code file will only mushroom to
703 bytes after converting the deprecated FONT tags to CSS classes.

Gee, only 703 instead of 125!

So when HTML5 gets ratified and after an adoption period (which could be
around 6 years) then HTML won't be so simple anymore. I have to wonder
by 2027 if something won't have replaced HTML by then rather than
attempt to keep rewriting an old document formatting standard.

Will browsers _actually_ stop parsing the old tags anyway, whatever W3
and HTML5 say? I rather doubt it.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Does Barbie come with Ken?"
"Barbie comes with G.I. Joe. She fakes it with Ken." - anonymous

In message , Ken Springer
writes:
[]
To me, a text editor mimics what can be done with the last of the
mechanical typewriters and a few electric typewriters, like the IBM
Selectric and daisy wheel typewriters, where you can insert a different
ball or wheel and change font size and typeface. Spellchecking? No.
You've just crossed over into having created a very simple computer.
[]
As others have said, all our lines are in different places; for me, if I
have to put my finger on a specific line, it's that for me, a text
processor handles text, i. e. pure ASCII; that might _possibly_ be
extended to "extended ASCII" or one of the two-byte character sets, but
_doesn't_ even _know_ anything about fonts, colours, sizes, and so on.
In short, something whose output could be displayed on a "glass
teletype" (or real one) without losing anything. (I'd prefer it to be
one whose electronics know about 8-tabs, though.) Any _formatting_ - or
even non-monospaced spacing - makes it a word processor to me.

But it's academic; we all have our own line/definitions, and it doesn't
_usually_ matter if they don't coincide.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Does Barbie come with Ken?"
"Barbie comes with G.I. Joe. She fakes it with Ken." - anonymous

In message , dadiOH
writes:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote
in message

A *spreadsheet* is for data on which calculations are
anticipated. Granted, not _all_ the columns/rows will
have sums done on them - I've nothing against column and
row headings - but if _all_ you want is the _layout_,
don't use a spreadsheet. (VanguardLH [what's the origin
of that name by the way?] are for once in agreement on
something!)

Are you asking the origin of the word "spreadsheet"? If so, it pre-dates

No, I wasn't.

computers. The first microcomputer spreadsheet was Visicalc,circa 1979. It
is still available, BTW.

BBC Micro wasn't it?

But even that was a true spreadsheet, i. e. designed for doing sums. If
I just want a grid, I'll use the table features of a WP (I think the
temporal equivalent of Visicalc was View, though I can't remember if
that used tables, as I never used it much) - I won't use a spreadsheet
(as I understand the term).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Does Barbie come with Ken?"
"Barbie comes with G.I. Joe. She fakes it with Ken." - anonymous

In message , Shadow
writes:
On Sat, 8 Feb 2014 16:00:40 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Shadow
writes:
[]
Nice = The clickerty sound. It does not phone home. It saves
[]
Since you don't explain what you mean by "The clickerty sound", I can
only assume you mean keyclicks. If you want those,
http://www.leeos.com/noisy_keyboard.html (and the mouse one!) is (are!)
still there - get them while they are, as the site doesn't seem to have
been altered since 2003, so I imagine it may not be there much longer.
It (they) work fine under XP (and many previous); whether 7 or not I
don't know (I'd say there's a good chance as the integration seems to be
well written).

Don't use unless you live alone ... (-:

That worked. Though I wish it could be limited to just my word
processor.
TY
[]'s

It (on this system, under XP, anyway) puts a click-to-toggle icon in the
tray area. (Just trying it to make sure, I found how much I've come to
rely on the clicks - silent typing was most unsettling!)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder...

| Very good post. Maybe you should crosspost to
| alt.comp.freeware.
|

Thank you. I've never used that group. Maybe I'll
check into it. Though I'm ambivalent about supporting
people with a "free or bust" attitude.

| Wondering what you compiled SumatraPDF with. Site says "You'll
| need Visual Studio 2012". I did not realize that DRM could be
| switched off, I thought it was in some micro$oft library the program
| used, and one of the reasons I was using other PDF-readers. Maybe I'll
| just Ollydbg Sumatra. Write a binary patch if the code is +-
| consistent through versions.
|

I'm a bit behind with versions. My last version
was 2.1.1. The current version is 2.4. I think I
used VC 2008 Express. The new version may
require VC 2012. In the past the Express versions
have been free, though I can't say for sure that
VC 2012 is free.

The restrictions in PDFs are not DRM. They're
just flags, presumably stored in the header. It's
really just a clever scam instituted by Adobe to
make PDFs seem as "concrete" and immutable as
printed pages, which is something business people
very much want to think is feasible. Thus, a format
that's not good for much of anything other than
accurate printing has become the default for
anything official in business or gov't.

The only reason PDF locking works is because people
writing PDF readers respect the flags, and unlike, say,
HTML or DOC files, PDF is extremely complex. So if the
people writing the software respect the flags then
the format is lockable for all practical purposes. But one
need only ignore the flags, editing the source code to
bypass the flag checks. And in doing so one is not
bypassing any DRM or reverse engineering anything.
(Nevertheless, I don't distribute my Sumatra version.
I figure it's not for me to override the authors wishes.)

Unfortunately, in many cases the restriction flags
are set for no reason: Authors who don't know what
they're doing; gov't documents locked for no reason
other than frivolous, overzealous officiality; etc. Which
can be quite a pain. To copy text from a PDF like that
usually requires a screencapture sent to OCR software,
followed by some editing of the result.

| I also do not trust AVs anymore, specially the cloud-enabled
| types, but I do recommend them for the clueless.
|
Yes, it's hard to argue with having AV if people don't
want to keep track themselves. Anyone who wants
Facebook, webmail, or anything else that requires
allowing script and/or Flash indiscriminately, has no way
to be reasonably secure online.
But it's a shame. In my experience AV programs have become
extreme resource hogs, comparing byte streams to 10's of
thousands of "virus definitions"
every time a file is touched, and updating several times
daily. It's become an untenable approach. Many attacks
are using zero-day exploits, anyway. There have even been
articles about a market in zero-day exploits, with the NSA
apparently even more involved in criminal hacking than
Russian mobsters:
http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/175803/

AV is mostly useless for that kind of thing.


| You forgot Nirsoft, and a text-editor (Notepad++), both
| essential, IMHO.
| And CPU_id (CPU-Z) and Imgburn both phone home (check your
| logs)

It is getting hard to find truly clean software. Some
of it's well intentioned. But even with those, I don't know
how the idea became popularly regarded as reasonable
that all software should be placed on an update drip-feed;
programs being changed willy nilly, without notice. It's
not a stable approach.
If I remember correctly, ImgBurn shows a message at
first start allowing updates to be disabled. I never had to
block it. But I do have cpuz.exe blocked. I'm using a
firewall that blocks unauthorized outgoing. I usually
also unplug the network cable when installing anything.
Some installers will hang if they detect a network connection
but are blocked from getting through.
Even the Mozilla products and extensions have an annoying
habit of trying to track installs by sending the browser to
their homepage on first run after an install or update.

| Maybe we could start an about:config thread back in
| alt.comp.freeware. To make Firefox freeware again. IE and Chrome are
| built as malware, there is nothing that can be done to avoid the
| spyware.

There is a lot that can be done. Last week I discovered that
I could replace the normal download window in FF 23. By
downloading the relevant .xpi and examining the code one can
make the pref changes and avoid installing more extensions.
And some extensions can replace the missing settings in the
Options window.
But it seems to be a losing battle. Those solutions are only
feasible for a very few people, and even then they're limited.
According to what I read, the download window is removed
altogether from FF 26! They break a function pointlessly one
month. The next month someone writes an XPI fix. A month
after that the Mozilla people break it permanently! The only
decent solution I have at this point is simply not to upgrade.

| []'s
| --
| Don't be evil - Google 2004
| We have a new policy - Google 2012

On 2/8/14 9:51 PM, Yvonne York wrote:
On 05/02/14 18:35, Ken Springer wrote:

[snip]

I still want to give Linux a try, I even created a partition on my boot
drive for that. Haven't had time and energy to do it. I've read some
nice things about Netrunner (I think) and it's attempt to make switching
from Windows less painful. It's supposed to include Flash, Java, and
who knows what else.

Try
http://solydxk.com/
and be pleasantly surprised

Added to the list of distros to try. Thanks.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 24.0

On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 09:55:14 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| Very good post. Maybe you should crosspost to
| alt.comp.freeware.
|

Thank you. I've never used that group. Maybe I'll
check into it. Though I'm ambivalent about supporting
people with a "free or bust" attitude.

Not like that, but since the NSA scandal people are so scared
of updating software or trying new stuff (I mean American or
European), that the group has been rather trollish. I myself am a
culprit.

| Wondering what you compiled SumatraPDF with. Site says "You'll
| need Visual Studio 2012". I did not realize that DRM could be
| switched off, I thought it was in some micro$oft library the program
| used, and one of the reasons I was using other PDF-readers. Maybe I'll
| just Ollydbg Sumatra. Write a binary patch if the code is +-
| consistent through versions.
|

I'm a bit behind with versions. My last version
was 2.1.1. The current version is 2.4. I think I
used VC 2008 Express. The new version may
require VC 2012. In the past the Express versions
have been free, though I can't say for sure that
VC 2012 is free.

Sorry, I expressed myself badly. Visual Studio 2012 is the
only one available from MS ATM, but it probably compiles under the
previous versions.
Update: I found the 2008, 2010 and 2012 editions on MS
servers. All are 600-900 Mb isos. Wondering if they are worth my while
installing.

The restrictions in PDFs are not DRM. They're
just flags, presumably stored in the header. It's
really just a clever scam instituted by Adobe to
make PDFs seem as "concrete" and immutable as
printed pages, which is something business people
very much want to think is feasible. Thus, a format
that's not good for much of anything other than
accurate printing has become the default for
anything official in business or gov't.

I fired up Ollydbg and removed the restriction on copying text
in about 3 minutes. It's a one-byte edit. Search for:
"Copying text was denied (copying as image only)"
the jump above that, make it unconditional.
I'm using v2.5.8*** portable.

I don't have any other PDF's to test for other restrictions.


The only reason PDF locking works is because people
writing PDF readers respect the flags, and unlike, say,
HTML or DOC files, PDF is extremely complex. So if the
people writing the software respect the flags then
the format is lockable for all practical purposes. But one
need only ignore the flags, editing the source code to
bypass the flag checks. And in doing so one is not
bypassing any DRM or reverse engineering anything.
(Nevertheless, I don't distribute my Sumatra version.
I figure it's not for me to override the authors wishes.)

The good thing about open-source is that, being communist, you
can alter it to fit your needs ...


Unfortunately, in many cases the restriction flags
are set for no reason: Authors who don't know what
they're doing; gov't documents locked for no reason
other than frivolous, overzealous officiality; etc. Which
can be quite a pain. To copy text from a PDF like that
usually requires a screencapture sent to OCR software,
followed by some editing of the result.

| I also do not trust AVs anymore, specially the cloud-enabled
| types, but I do recommend them for the clueless.
|
Yes, it's hard to argue with having AV if people don't
want to keep track themselves. Anyone who wants
Facebook, webmail, or anything else that requires
allowing script and/or Flash indiscriminately, has no way
to be reasonably secure online.
But it's a shame. In my experience AV programs have become
extreme resource hogs, comparing byte streams to 10's of
thousands of "virus definitions"
every time a file is touched, and updating several times
daily. It's become an untenable approach. Many attacks
are using zero-day exploits, anyway. There have even been
articles about a market in zero-day exploits, with the NSA
apparently even more involved in criminal hacking than
Russian mobsters:
http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/175803/

AV is mostly useless for that kind of thing.

Yep, and there are the ones that do not detect the NSA
backdoors by default. Google for Kaspersky's recent declarations on
NSA snooping. He thinks it's "great". McAfee and Norton never detected
the old FBI trojans. And Avira is going cloud for the free versions.


| You forgot Nirsoft, and a text-editor (Notepad++), both
| essential, IMHO.
| And CPU_id (CPU-Z) and Imgburn both phone home (check your
| logs)

It is getting hard to find truly clean software. Some
of it's well intentioned. But even with those, I don't know
how the idea became popularly regarded as reasonable
that all software should be placed on an update drip-feed;
programs being changed willy nilly, without notice. It's
not a stable approach.

+1
A wee DNS hack and you are updating to the latest Banking
Trojan[TM]
If I remember correctly, ImgBurn shows a message at
first start allowing updates to be disabled. I never had to
block it.

It connects to 3 sites to "check if there is internet
connectivity" before going to the update site. Then it checks to see
if you have enabled updates. Well, it used to, so I block it just in
case. The author is a bright lad. Maybe he changed that.
But I do have cpuz.exe blocked. I'm using a
firewall that blocks unauthorized outgoing. I usually
also unplug the network cable when installing anything.
Some installers will hang if they detect a network connection
but are blocked from getting through.
Even the Mozilla products and extensions have an annoying
habit of trying to track installs by sending the browser to
their homepage on first run after an install or update.

Noscript comes to mind

| Maybe we could start an about:config thread back in
| alt.comp.freeware. To make Firefox freeware again. IE and Chrome are
| built as malware, there is nothing that can be done to avoid the
| spyware.

My
\Mozilla\Firefox\Profiles\*******.default\prefs.js

is over 22Kb, but a lot of that was not manual editing.
There is a lot that can be done. Last week I discovered that
I could replace the normal download window in FF 23. By
downloading the relevant .xpi and examining the code one can
make the pref changes and avoid installing more extensions.
And some extensions can replace the missing settings in the
Options window.
But it seems to be a losing battle. Those solutions are only
feasible for a very few people, and even then they're limited.
According to what I read, the download window is removed
altogether from FF 26! They break a function pointlessly one
month. The next month someone writes an XPI fix. A month
after that the Mozilla people break it permanently! The only
decent solution I have at this point is simply not to upgrade.

I use 17 ESR. Yep, I know it's backdoored, but so are the more
recent ones.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 14:46:56 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

Since you don't explain what you mean by "The clickerty sound", I can
only assume you mean keyclicks. If you want those,
http://www.leeos.com/noisy_keyboard.html (and the mouse one!) is (are!)
still there - get them while they are, as the site doesn't seem to have
been altered since 2003, so I imagine it may not be there much longer.
It (they) work fine under XP (and many previous); whether 7 or not I
don't know (I'd say there's a good chance as the integration seems to be
well written).

Don't use unless you live alone ... (-:

That worked. Though I wish it could be limited to just my word
processor.


It (on this system, under XP, anyway) puts a click-to-toggle icon in the
tray area. (Just trying it to make sure, I found how much I've come to
rely on the clicks - silent typing was most unsettling!)

Yes. I just noticed it buried in the dozens of icons I have.
TY again.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

"Ken Springer" wrote in message
...
On 2/8/14 9:02 AM, BillW50 wrote:
On 2/8/2014 8:35 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: In message
, BillW50 writes:

"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...

snip

A *spreadsheet* is for data on which calculations are anticipated.
Granted, not _all_ the columns/rows will have sums done on them -
I've nothing against column and row headings - but if _all_ you want
is the _layout_, don't use a spreadsheet. (VanguardLH [what's the
origin of that name by the way?] are for once in agreement on
something!)

Odd? If I need a blank form let's say for daily blood glucose
readings, a spreadsheet is the way to do it. Why what would you use
to create such a form? You would use a word processor?

I think, in this discussion, we've omitted two pieces of
information... The definition of a "form", and the purpose for which
the table/form is being created.

I'm assuming "form" means something printed on a single piece of
paper, paper size being irrelevant. Not the "form" you would create
in a program like MS Access for data entry.

As for the purpose, using the blood glucose readings example...

If I simply wanted something printed to hand write the sugar level
readings, and nothing else, I'd use a word processor in a heartbeat.
You get immediate visual feedback of what it will look like when
printed, and fitting it to the page size is easy. Simply tell the
program how many rows you want, and how many columns you want. If
your mental calculations are close, you're basically done. Then you
can fine tune the result to fill the printable area of the paper if
you wish. But with a spreadsheet, you have to define a "printable
area", I.E. which columns and rows will print on a page, and then use
Print Preview to see what is may look like. Change the number of
columns and/or rows you want to include, and you have to reset the
printable area. No immediate feedback.

But, if I were going to do some type of calculations on the individual
readings, creating graphs of averages, total, whatever I wanted to
know, I'd use the spreadsheet to create the table/form. Although, I'd
probably take that initial setup and import it into something like
Access and create a custom form on the monitor for the data input.
Depending on the data you are including for your glucose readings, the
Access way is possibly better, if you're also keeping track of what
and when you're eating, the times the readings were taken, what you
ate, etc.

Truthfully, if I wanted something that sophisticated, I'd just use the
software that comes with my meter! LOL

Basically, you have to determine how that table/form is going to be
used if you wish to use the software that will give you the best end
result.

All very good and valid points Ken. Although here are some others things
you can chew over. And yes, I do use the software that came with the
meter and I personally find it very useful myself. And you don't have to
input any data, as a cable runs between the meter and the computer. Then
it downloads everything and imports it into the program. The problem is
some doctors doesn't understand the data in this format and confuses
them, go figure.

What they like to see is the commonly found log sheets. Sure I suppose
you can create one using a word processor that supports tables. Although
I prefer using a spreadsheet. Sure I can print a log without any data
and fill it in by hand. Then later enter this data into the spreadsheet.
Of course, it also uses the data and creates averages, max and min, etc.
So in my case, printing empty log sheets or filled in logs from Excel
makes total sense.

Although you mentioned using the meter's software. And now that I think
about it, it acts more or less like a database vs. a spreadsheet. So I
was thinking if I could be doing this on a database instead?
Surprisingly, I think that would work well too. Even printing blank log
sheets too.

Here is something else to think about. I know lots of people and say my
accountant friends who live in Excel all day long. And they will use
Excel for tasks that you and I won't even bother with. I guess they know
it so well, it just makes sense to them.

Heck I used to use WordStar for both light duty database and spreadsheet
use too. It could only add a column of numbers for spreadsheet use.
Although for database, you could sort on any column. So you could sort
any field of data. Word also can do this and do more than just adding
columns of numbers. ;-)

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Windows Live Mail 2009 v14
Centrino Core2 Duo T7400 2.16 GHz - 4GB - Windows 8 Pro w/Media Center

In message , BillW50
writes:
[]
I prefer using a spreadsheet. Sure I can print a log without any data
and fill it in by hand. Then later enter this data into the spreadsheet.
Of course, it also uses the data and creates averages, max and min, etc.
So in my case, printing empty log sheets or filled in logs from Excel
makes total sense.
[]
Indeed; you're doing sums on it, therefore a spreadsheet is the right
thing to use - so it probably wasn't a good example to pick.

I remain convinced that just wanting a GRID is not a reason to use a
spreadsheet PROGRAM, however. By grid, I mean something with rows and
columns, with or without visible lines between them. For things like: a
rota, a comparison chart, a Christmas card list.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Actors are fairly modest...A lot of us have quite a lot to be modest about. -
Simon Greenall (voice of Aleksandr the "Simples!" Meerkat), RT 11-17 Dec 2010

| Sorry, I expressed myself badly. Visual Studio 2012 is the
| only one available from MS ATM, but it probably compiles under the
| previous versions.
| Update: I found the 2008, 2010 and 2012 editions on MS
| servers. All are 600-900 Mb isos. Wondering if they are worth my while
| installing.

VS or VC? Express or regular? I mostly use VB6
and only installed VC Express for little things like
editing Sumatra. I don't remember exactly what
the licensing terms are. I don't think there are
any notable restrictions on VC Express, though it's
possible that there's a non-commercial clause.

If you work in C++ and want an IDE/compiler
then VC Express seems to be a good bargain.
And a lot of OSS source code comes as one
or more VC project version. Unfortunately, Microsoft
keeps changing things around, so it can be a pain
to convert a project from one version to another.

| I fired up Ollydbg and removed the restriction on copying text
| in about 3 minutes. It's a one-byte edit. Search for:
| "Copying text was denied (copying as image only)"
| the jump above that, make it unconditional.
| I'm using v2.5.8*** portable.
|

That's impressive. I'll have to look into Ollydbg.
The edit I had made in the source code was to just
skip calling the functions to check the flags and
assign "no restrictions" values to those variables.

| My
| \Mozilla\Firefox\Profiles\*******.default\prefs.js
| is over 22Kb, but a lot of that was not manual editing.

It's too bad that whole file can't just be given to
non-technical people, but there are too many basic
choices built into it. Even giving people a user.js
would require them making a lot of choices they
won't care to understand.

| I use 17 ESR. Yep, I know it's backdoored, but so are the more
| recent ones.

I don't understand. Could you explain that?
Is 17 ESR a version of Firefox? Firefox is
backdoored?

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...
In message , BillW50
writes:
[]
I prefer using a spreadsheet. Sure I can print a log without any data
and fill it in by hand. Then later enter this data into the
spreadsheet. Of course, it also uses the data and creates averages,
max and min, etc. So in my case, printing empty log sheets or filled
in logs from Excel makes total sense.
[]
Indeed; you're doing sums on it, therefore a spreadsheet is the right
thing to use - so it probably wasn't a good example to pick.

I remain convinced that just wanting a GRID is not a reason to use a
spreadsheet PROGRAM, however. By grid, I mean something with rows and
columns, with or without visible lines between them. For things like:
a rota, a comparison chart, a Christmas card list.

I agree. Although I noticed many people might use what we think would be
a poor choice for a given task. One main reason why they might do this
is because they know a given application far better than other generally
more beneficial program for the job.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Windows Live Mail 2009 v14
Centrino Core2 Duo T7400 2.16 GHz - 4GB - Windows 8 Pro w/Media Center