Can I FORCE a USB thumb drive NOT to PREVENT system boot?

I'm attempting to update from win7 to win10, one roadblock
at a time.

My win7 system has a permanently installed 16GB USB thumb drive
that I use for intermediate storage.

When I tried to do the same thing on my win10 system, it fails to
boot with a 32GB thumb drive installed.

I did a LOT of experiments. Turns out that:
The win10 system does boot with an 8GB virgin thumb drive.
It does boot with the 16GB drive swapped over from the win7 system.

It fails to boot with any of my other thumb drives from 16GB to 256GB
installed.
The computer boots from linux or Hirens bootable flash drives
just fine.

I have one 32GB thumb drive that elicits an error message,
"Remove the external drive and press any key to reboot."
All the others hang with a blinking cursor in the upper left corner.

I've tried reformatting fat32/Exfat/NTFS. NO change.

Since I have at least one 16GB drive that will let the system boot
and a bunch of 16GB and larger that won't let the system boot,
I expect that it's something about the setup of the thumb drive.

I've been all over the properties and can't find anything obvious.
All my large thumb drives have had numerous experimental uses.
No idea what got programmed into them.


I have examples that suggest it's not a Win10 issue,
but a thumb drive configuration problem.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++
Is there a way to cause the thumb drive to tell the OS, "Ignore me
while you boot?"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++

To head off the typical diversions...
I absolutely require the ability to boot from a bootable thumb drive
while the non-bootable storage thumb drive is installed.
I can't turn off the USB boot in the BIOS.

I also have an external eSATA drive that isn't causing any problems.
Removing it doesn't fix the USB boot lockup problem.

This is a Dell Optiplex 780.
Boot order is USB/CDROM/SSD.
All the slots are USB 2.0 in all the test systems.
Some of the flash drives are USB 2.0, some are 3.0.
Puppy Linux and Hirens boot from a thumb drive.
Same issue happens on a Dell Optiplex 360 running
win7 or win10.

mike wrote:
I'm attempting to update from win7 to win10, one roadblock
at a time.

My win7 system has a permanently installed 16GB USB thumb drive
that I use for intermediate storage.

When I tried to do the same thing on my win10 system, it fails to
boot with a 32GB thumb drive installed.

I did a LOT of experiments. Turns out that:
The win10 system does boot with an 8GB virgin thumb drive.
It does boot with the 16GB drive swapped over from the win7 system.

It fails to boot with any of my other thumb drives from 16GB to 256GB
installed.
The computer boots from linux or Hirens bootable flash drives
just fine.

I have one 32GB thumb drive that elicits an error message,
"Remove the external drive and press any key to reboot."
All the others hang with a blinking cursor in the upper left corner.

I've tried reformatting fat32/Exfat/NTFS. NO change.

Since I have at least one 16GB drive that will let the system boot
and a bunch of 16GB and larger that won't let the system boot,
I expect that it's something about the setup of the thumb drive.

I've been all over the properties and can't find anything obvious.
All my large thumb drives have had numerous experimental uses.
No idea what got programmed into them.


I have examples that suggest it's not a Win10 issue,
but a thumb drive configuration problem.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++
Is there a way to cause the thumb drive to tell the OS, "Ignore me
while you boot?"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++

To head off the typical diversions...
I absolutely require the ability to boot from a bootable thumb drive
while the non-bootable storage thumb drive is installed.
I can't turn off the USB boot in the BIOS.

I also have an external eSATA drive that isn't causing any problems.
Removing it doesn't fix the USB boot lockup problem.

This is a Dell Optiplex 780.
Boot order is USB/CDROM/SSD.
All the slots are USB 2.0 in all the test systems.
Some of the flash drives are USB 2.0, some are 3.0.
Puppy Linux and Hirens boot from a thumb drive.
Same issue happens on a Dell Optiplex 360 running
win7 or win10.

Someone here claims the USB sticks will work
if you plug them into the back. And not into
a front panel USB port. While a front USB port
could be supported by a separate USB hub chip,
who really knows how that works.

https://community.spiceworks.com/top...-boot-from-usb

*******

Some USB stick properties of note:

1) RMB bit set or cleared. One value allows a USB stick
to be used as a four partition hard drive. The other value
only allows Windows to prep and use one partition on
the USB drive. Sony branded USB sticks might have been
some early abusers of the RMB bit. In 2018, you might
find more 32GB or larger USB sticks which use the four
partition capable value of RMB. The use-sieber site might
have more info.

2) USB sticks can be composite devices, with a fake CDROM
sharing the USB namespace with the regular storage.
This kind of scheme might have been used on "U3" portable drives.
Note that some BIOS cannot even traverse a USB hub and
find boot media with something like this.

--- USB_Composite --+--- Flash storage
|
+--- "Fake" CDROM partition

3) I doubt the Optiplex BIOS was designed with this in mind.
Mitigating some theoretical "badUSB" exploit. This is
like (2), only the flash controller is a lot more capable
(of making mischief).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BadUSB

"A USB device firmware hack called BadUSB was presented
at Black Hat USA 2014 conference,[15] demonstrating
how a USB flash drive microcontroller can be
reprogrammed to spoof various other device types to
take control of a computer, exfiltrate data, or spy
on the user."

*******

USB booting at BIOS level, isn't what you'd think it would
be. And I don't know if I have any docs that explain it
either. They do use the keyword "emulation" when referring
to the USB BIOS setup page. A USB floppy might be emulated
as a "USB 1.44MB hard drive". A USB ZIP drive might be
emulated as a "USB 250MB hard drive". A USB magneto optical
drive might be a "USB 2GB hard drive". The code module
doing the emulation might get upset if it runs into
a device that it cannot register - but it would be more
appropriate to ignore it, rather than issue a snotty
message to "remove the device and press any key" kind
of message.

My guess would be, this complicated scheme allows this:

Regular_hard_drive -------------+---- INT13 routine
|
USB ??? ---- emulation_code ----+

Something like that.

*******

During the boot process, and before the desktop necessarily
appears, the OS can switch to its own device driver. In the
case of Knoppix, it can even lose the "reference" to the
device, and promptly complain the "device is missing" when
the driver handoff occurs. Not too many OSes suffered
from this malady during boot. The "fix" for those early
Knoppix versions, was to enter the address ("/dev/sda3")
on the boot line, to "tell" the stupid thing where to
look after handoff. And it's a *bitch* to guess what
the address might be too - not at all easy to get right.
Takes about a half-dozen tries on average. The jewel case
of that CD has prospective addresses written on the cover
for easy reference here.

With all the holes and steps involved, it's a wonder
a computer ever boots at all.

HTH,
Paul

Has the USB stick been configured as 'bootable'?

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

On 9/30/2018 5:51 AM, Paul wrote:
mike wrote:
I'm attempting to update from win7 to win10, one roadblock
at a time.

My win7 system has a permanently installed 16GB USB thumb drive
that I use for intermediate storage.

When I tried to do the same thing on my win10 system, it fails to
boot with a 32GB thumb drive installed.

I did a LOT of experiments.Â* Turns out that:
The win10 system does boot with an 8GB virgin thumb drive.
It does boot with the 16GB drive swapped over from the win7 system.

It fails to boot with any of my other thumb drives from 16GB to 256GB
installed.
The computer boots from linux or Hirens bootable flash drives
just fine.

I have one 32GB thumb drive that elicits an error message,
"Remove the external drive and press any key to reboot."
All the others hang with a blinking cursor in the upper left corner.

I've tried reformatting fat32/Exfat/NTFS.Â* NO change.

Since I have at least one 16GB drive that will let the system boot
and a bunch of 16GB and larger that won't let the system boot,
I expect that it's something about the setup of the thumb drive.

I've been all over the properties and can't find anything obvious.
All my large thumb drives have had numerous experimental uses.
No idea what got programmed into them.


I have examples that suggest it's not a Win10 issue,
but a thumb drive configuration problem.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++
Is there a way to cause the thumb drive to tell the OS, "Ignore me
while you boot?"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++

To head off the typical diversions...
I absolutely require the ability to boot from a bootable thumb drive
while the non-bootable storage thumb drive is installed.
I can't turn off the USB boot in the BIOS.

I also have an external eSATA drive that isn't causing any problems.
Removing it doesn't fix the USB boot lockup problem.

This is a Dell Optiplex 780.
Boot order is USB/CDROM/SSD.
All the slots are USB 2.0 in all the test systems.
Some of the flash drives are USB 2.0, some are 3.0.
Puppy Linux and Hirens boot from a thumb drive.
Same issue happens on a Dell Optiplex 360 running
win7 or win10.

Someone here claims the USB sticks will work
if you plug them into the back. And not into
a front panel USB port. While a front USB port
could be supported by a separate USB hub chip,
who really knows how that works.

https://community.spiceworks.com/top...-boot-from-usb

*******

Some USB stick properties of note:

1) RMB bit set or cleared. One value allows a USB stick
Â*Â* to be used as a four partition hard drive. The other value
Â*Â* only allows Windows to prep and use one partition on
Â*Â* the USB drive. Sony branded USB sticks might have been
Â*Â* some early abusers of the RMB bit. In 2018, you might
Â*Â* find more 32GB or larger USB sticks which use the four
Â*Â* partition capable value of RMB. The use-sieber site might
Â*Â* have more info.

2) USB sticks can be composite devices, with a fake CDROM
Â*Â* sharing the USB namespace with the regular storage.
Â*Â* This kind of scheme might have been used on "U3" portable drives.
Â*Â* Note that some BIOS cannot even traverse a USB hub and
Â*Â* find boot media with something like this.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* --- USB_Composite --+--- Flash storage
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* |
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +--- "Fake" CDROM partition

3) I doubt the Optiplex BIOS was designed with this in mind.
Â*Â* Mitigating some theoretical "badUSB" exploit. This is
Â*Â* like (2), only the flash controller is a lot more capable
Â*Â* (of making mischief).

Â*Â* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BadUSB

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* "A USB device firmware hack called BadUSB was presented
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* at Black Hat USA 2014 conference,[15] demonstrating
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* how a USB flash drive microcontroller can be
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* reprogrammed to spoof various other device types to
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* take control of a computer, exfiltrate data, or spy
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* on the user."

*******

USB booting at BIOS level, isn't what you'd think it would
be. And I don't know if I have any docs that explain it
either. They do use the keyword "emulation" when referring
to the USB BIOS setup page. A USB floppy might be emulated
as a "USB 1.44MB hard drive". A USB ZIP drive might be
emulated as a "USB 250MB hard drive". A USB magneto optical
drive might be a "USB 2GB hard drive". The code module
doing the emulation might get upset if it runs into
a device that it cannot register - but it would be more
appropriate to ignore it, rather than issue a snotty
message to "remove the device and press any key" kind
of message.

My guess would be, this complicated scheme allows this:

Â*Â*Â*Â* Regular_hard_drive -------------+---- INT13 routine
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* |
Â*Â*Â*Â* USB ??? ---- emulation_code ----+

Something like that.

*******

During the boot process, and before the desktop necessarily
appears, the OS can switch to its own device driver. In the
case of Knoppix, it can even lose the "reference" to the
device, and promptly complain the "device is missing" when
the driver handoff occurs. Not too many OSes suffered
from this malady during boot. The "fix" for those early
Knoppix versions, was to enter the address ("/dev/sda3")
on the boot line, to "tell" the stupid thing where to
look after handoff. And it's a *bitch* to guess what
the address might be too - not at all easy to get right.
Takes about a half-dozen tries on average. The jewel case
of that CD has prospective addresses written on the cover
for easy reference here.

With all the holes and steps involved, it's a wonder
a computer ever boots at all.

HTH,
Â*Â*Â* Paul

Thanks for all the info.
I'm not having problems with booting a bootable flash drive.

My problem is that an installed flash drive that is NOT BOOTABLE
is hanging the boot process.

On 10/1/2018 9:39 AM, GS wrote:
Has the USB stick been configured as 'bootable'?

Not clear what that means.
Some of the drives have been bootable in the past.
Seems that there are many variants of flash drive
configuration.
If I reformat it, shouldn't that clear all that out?
If I look at it with gparted, the boot flag is not set.

Is there a particular utility that can put the flash
configuration back to default, no matter what its current
condition?

Is there a particular utility that can put the flash
configuration back to default, no matter what its current
condition?

Yes! Google this...

Windows7-USB-DVD-Download-Tool-Installer-en-US.exe

It's what I've been using to convert ISO files to bootable media so you can
reset your boot order to install from a USB.

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

On 10/2/2018 11:41 AM, GS wrote:
Is there a particular utility that can put the flash
configuration back to default, no matter what its current
condition?

Yes! Google this...

*Windows7-USB-DVD-Download-Tool-Installer-en-US.exe

It's what I've been using to convert ISO files to bootable media so you
can reset your boot order to install from a USB.


I think we're not on the same page.
I don't have any problem with bootable USB sticks.
I'm not installing anything.

All I want is a USB data drive permanently installed
that doesn't lock up the boot process and PREVENT
booting from the hard drive.

Mike wrote:


My problem is that an installed flash drive that is NOT BOOTABLE
is hanging the boot process.

I had an Asus motherboard, where a disk with a zeroed MBR
would cause the BIOS to freeze. I thought this was pretty
funny at the time, and I was glad I owned two computers.

Paul

Mike wrote:
On 10/2/2018 11:41 AM, GS wrote:
Is there a particular utility that can put the flash
configuration back to default, no matter what its current
condition?

Yes! Google this...

Windows7-USB-DVD-Download-Tool-Installer-en-US.exe

It's what I've been using to convert ISO files to bootable media so
you can reset your boot order to install from a USB.


I think we're not on the same page.
I don't have any problem with bootable USB sticks.
I'm not installing anything.

All I want is a USB data drive permanently installed
that doesn't lock up the boot process and PREVENT
booting from the hard drive.

Have you characterized the device in question yet ?

Is the RMB bit set or cleared ?

Does USBTreeView or similar hint at a composite device ?

One of the reasons I don't buy USB sticks with fancy
features, is to avoid the situation you're in now.
That means no "Iron" sticks, no "U3 portable software"
sticks, and so on. I don't want features that can't be removed.

Paul

On 10/2/2018 1:34 PM, Paul wrote:
Mike wrote:
On 10/2/2018 11:41 AM, GS wrote:
Is there a particular utility that can put the flash
configuration back to default, no matter what its current
condition?

Yes! Google this...

* Windows7-USB-DVD-Download-Tool-Installer-en-US.exe

It's what I've been using to convert ISO files to bootable media so
you can reset your boot order to install from a USB.


I think we're not on the same page.
I don't have any problem with bootable USB sticks.
I'm not installing anything.

All I want is a USB data drive permanently installed
that doesn't lock up the boot process and PREVENT
booting from the hard drive.

Have you characterized the device in question yet ?

Is the RMB bit set or cleared ?

Googling the RMB bit turns up some interesting inconsistencies
that I see here.

Using the win10 control panel/administrative tools/disk management/
Both the working and non-working flash drives show up as "simple" layout.
Looking at the properties/volumes page, both show up as removable.
Down another level to the policies page,

The working drive has only two entries for removal policy:
quick removal and better performance.

The policies page for the non-working drives have four entries:
Quick Removal, Better performance, enable write caching, turn off
windows write-cache...

That's the inconsistency mentioned in a google search.

Even if that is the problem, what do I do to fix it?
Is there a place I can edit the removable bit?


Does USBTreeView or similar hint at a composite device ?

I copied the usbtreeview outputs and compared them.
Nothing stands out.
The working drive is USB 2.0 and the non-working ones say USB 2.1
Some of the non-working ones have a bunch more stuff related to
USB3 and USB 2.0 extension descriptors.

No mention of RMB
One of the reasons I don't buy USB sticks with fancy
features, is to avoid the situation you're in now.
That means no "Iron" sticks, no "U3 portable software"
sticks, and so on. I don't want features that can't be removed.
There is a utility to remove the U3 stuff that fixed the problems I
had when I first bought them.

I did another experiment.
I changed the BIOS to boot the USB after the internal hdd.
Now, it boots ok with any of the drives.
I can still use the BIOS boot menu to boot a flash drive if
needed.

That mitigates the issue on THIS system, but I'd still like to find
how to fix the problem on the other systems where I don't want to
change the boot order.

** Paul

On 10/2/2018 11:41 AM, GS wrote:
Is there a particular utility that can put the flash
configuration back to default, no matter what its current
condition?

Yes! Google this...

*Windows7-USB-DVD-Download-Tool-Installer-en-US.exe

It's what I've been using to convert ISO files to bootable media so you can
reset your boot order to install from a USB.


I think we're not on the same page.
I don't have any problem with bootable USB sticks.
I'm not installing anything.

All I want is a USB data drive permanently installed
that doesn't lock up the boot process and PREVENT
booting from the hard drive.

Oh my.., yes I did misunderstand.

I have a WD 2TB USB3 data drive attached to this machine. (It can be attached
to other machines if desired) The only startup behavior I get is whether to
scan it or proceed without scanning. Otherwise it has no bering on bootup.

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

I forgot to mention that the boot order starts with my system SSD, then DVD,
then USB[s]!

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

On 10/2/2018 11:11 PM, GS wrote:
I forgot to mention that the boot order starts with my system SSD, then
DVD, then USB[s]!

I have the same setup with a hard drive. No problems with boot.
But that drive isn't in the boot list.
Since I want to boot from a USB occasionally, I can't just remove
USB from the boot list.

I discovered that if I make my boot order like yours, I don't have
a boot problem, but it won't automatically boot from a bootable
USB drive.

Mike wrote:

The working drive has only two entries for removal policy:
quick removal and better performance.

The policies page for the non-working drives have four entries:
Quick Removal, Better performance, enable write caching, turn off
windows write-cache...

That's the inconsistency mentioned in a google search.

Even if that is the problem, what do I do to fix it?
Is there a place I can edit the removable bit?

That might be a function of file system choice.

You could read the article here for more inspiration.

https://www.uwe-sieber.de/usbstick_e.html

Paul

On 10/2/2018 11:11 PM, GS wrote:
I forgot to mention that the boot order starts with my system SSD, then
DVD, then USB[s]!

I have the same setup with a hard drive. No problems with boot.
But that drive isn't in the boot list.
Since I want to boot from a USB occasionally, I can't just remove
USB from the boot list.

I discovered that if I make my boot order like yours, I don't have
a boot problem, but it won't automatically boot from a bootable
USB drive.

In order to boot from a USB drive you must change boot order. Otherwise the 1st
bootable drive in the list is what boots!

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion