Can it be said that a locical drive is a virtual drive?

I guees semantics here is what is the issue, anyway, here goes:


"R. C. White" wrote in message
...
Hi, Tom - and all.

One big problem in discussing this is the several ambiguous meanings of
some terms, such as "drive", "partition" - and "boot". :(

As many writers have commented, "We BOOT from the SYSTEM partition and
keep the operating SYSTEM files in the BOOT volume." Microsoft didn't
invent this terminology, but continues to use it.

The boot process must begin in the System Partition, which must be on the
boot device (typically the master HD on the primary IDE controller); this
must be the Active (bootable) partition, which means it must be a Primary
Partition.

Right, I stated that regarding Primary partitions in my post to Tim.

snipped)

Logical drives are bootable, or else dual-boot scenarios would not be
possible. He just needs to use the context correctly, or else taken as it
is written would negate bootable logical drives. IOWs, if you have a
dual-boot setup (Primary/logical), you can select after the BIOS post, to
what OS you want to boot, hence it is bootable; it simply doesn't contain
the bootloader, which is at the beginning of the Primary partition.

Logical drives are not bootable.

Read what I said, to get into a logical drive, you need to boot into it, as
I pointed out in post BIOS load. All I said was from actually "booting", if
a partition cannot be booted into, then it isn't bootable. I simply mean
literally, that when one chooses a dual-boot, they choose to which one they
want to boot into, hence, it is bootable from that standpoint. Regardless of
what you boot into, the Post BIOS choice is there to make the boot.

A dual-boot must start in the System Partition (which must be a Primary
Partition).

I said this regarding the Primary drive in my post to Tim

A logical drive can be a "Boot Volume" - but you can't boot from it. :(

And I never said one could :-). refer to my post BIOS comments in this
reply, and the one before.

Hi, Tom.

LOL, this thread is screwed into a cocked hat,

Agreed! I just replied to another message from you in another subthread.
;^}

But anyway, to be clear on things; Windows (at least from what I know from
95 to now) can have 3 primaries with one extended w/logical drives, or
just simply four primaries, on one hard drive.

It's not just Windows. It's even more fundamental than that. It's all
MBR-type HDs, whether they run MS-DOS or Linux or who-knows-what.

In another subthread you pointed to a page in the WinXP Pro Resource Kit.
As you probably know, that entire RK is available online, and it contains a
wealth of information. One of my favorite parts is Chapter 27,
Troubleshooting Disks and File Systems. It's kind of hard to navigate
around in the online RK, and URLs I post here usually get into the RK but
not to the page I had in mind. :( But if you get to the top URL:
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/d.../reskit/en-us/

You can navigate from there to:
Welcome Part VI System Troubleshooting Ch 27 Troubleshooting Disks and
File Systems Disk Sectors Critical to Startup Disk Sectors on MBR
Disks

and then to Master Boot Record on Basic Disks. There you will find a
picture of the partition table, showing that it consists of only 64 bytes,
allowing for only four 16-byte entries for only four partitions. To change
this would take reprogramming the whole disk structure. Following the table
is a byte-by-byte explanation of what each code in the table means,
including the code for which (if any) is the one Active partition and which
(if any) is the one Extended partition.

These Resource Kits are truly valuable resources! I've read (most of) each
version since Win98. They are big books (1700+ pages in the WinXP second
edition). About half of each book does not interest me much at all; I'm not
concerned with deploying Windows to thousands of desktops in offices and
remote locations around the world. But the other half justifies the entire
purchase price (US$70 or so) of the entire book IF I spend - INVEST! - the
time to study the chapters on disks, file systems, the setup and startup
processes, etc. I figure the time I invest in studying these topics will
benefit me, not just in solving today's problem but for as long as I
continue to use Windows and computers - which probably will be the rest of
my life. I can merge this information with my own experience and with what
"I've heard" in newsgroups, from experts and from others. And if I can read
the whole book online for free, too, so much the better!

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP

"Tom" wrote in message
...
LOL, this thread is screwed into a cocked hat, I even attributed your
reply to BAR as wooly's LOL. ( I need to stop using google beta groups for
referencing LOL).

But anyway, to be clear on things; Windows (at least from what I know from
95 to now) can have 3 primaries with one extended w/logical drives, or
just simply four primaries, on one hard drive. Some 3rd party partition
managers will allow you create as many primary drives as you please,
BootIt NG comes to mind with this scenario.

"Bob I" wrote in message
...
I "replied" to wooly.bully and corrected his wrong impression of
"partitions vs. logical drives", PERHAPS YOU should read?

BAR wrote:

Bob I: put on your glasses and read carefully: in my text was ' thus an
extended partition can have an unlimited number of Logical Drives each
'.

"Bob I" wrote:


Only 4 PRIMARY partitions. I suspect you have 2, a Primary, and an
Extended which has been sliced in to 4 logicals.

wrote:


On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 04:05:03 -0800, BAR
wrote:



A full guide to XP drive management and terminolgy.

Windows XP supports up to four partitions per hard disk.


Well I guess I broke that rule since I currently have (5) partitions
(F: G: H: I J on my SATA drive in my Windows XP system. Or does this
only apply to the first drive?

I particularly don't get into the files structures and formats for HDDs,
though I am familiar with Windows and Linux products. I only made my comment
on what can be made on a HDD using the versions of Windows I know. I also
pointed out in another thread (since you mention the MBR table -16byte per
partition x 4 partitions limit = 64bytes here) that one can make more than 4
primary partitions using a 3rd party partition manager.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

"R. C. White" wrote in message
...
Hi, Tom.

LOL, this thread is screwed into a cocked hat,

Agreed! I just replied to another message from you in another subthread.
;^}

But anyway, to be clear on things; Windows (at least from what I know
from 95 to now) can have 3 primaries with one extended w/logical drives,
or just simply four primaries, on one hard drive.

It's not just Windows. It's even more fundamental than that. It's all
MBR-type HDs, whether they run MS-DOS or Linux or who-knows-what.

In another subthread you pointed to a page in the WinXP Pro Resource Kit.
As you probably know, that entire RK is available online, and it contains
a wealth of information. One of my favorite parts is Chapter 27,
Troubleshooting Disks and File Systems. It's kind of hard to navigate
around in the online RK, and URLs I post here usually get into the RK but
not to the page I had in mind. :( But if you get to the top URL:
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/d.../reskit/en-us/

You can navigate from there to:
Welcome Part VI System Troubleshooting Ch 27 Troubleshooting Disks
and File Systems Disk Sectors Critical to Startup Disk Sectors on
MBR Disks

and then to Master Boot Record on Basic Disks. There you will find a
picture of the partition table, showing that it consists of only 64 bytes,
allowing for only four 16-byte entries for only four partitions. To
change this would take reprogramming the whole disk structure. Following
the table is a byte-by-byte explanation of what each code in the table
means, including the code for which (if any) is the one Active partition
and which (if any) is the one Extended partition.

These Resource Kits are truly valuable resources! I've read (most of)
each version since Win98. They are big books (1700+ pages in the WinXP
second edition). About half of each book does not interest me much at
all; I'm not concerned with deploying Windows to thousands of desktops in
offices and remote locations around the world. But the other half
justifies the entire purchase price (US$70 or so) of the entire book IF I
spend - INVEST! - the time to study the chapters on disks, file systems,
the setup and startup processes, etc. I figure the time I invest in
studying these topics will benefit me, not just in solving today's problem
but for as long as I continue to use Windows and computers - which
probably will be the rest of my life. I can merge this information with
my own experience and with what "I've heard" in newsgroups, from experts
and from others. And if I can read the whole book online for free, too,
so much the better!

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP

"Tom" wrote in message
...
LOL, this thread is screwed into a cocked hat, I even attributed your
reply to BAR as wooly's LOL. ( I need to stop using google beta groups
for referencing LOL).

But anyway, to be clear on things; Windows (at least from what I know
from 95 to now) can have 3 primaries with one extended w/logical drives,
or just simply four primaries, on one hard drive. Some 3rd party
partition managers will allow you create as many primary drives as you
please, BootIt NG comes to mind with this scenario.

"Bob I" wrote in message
...
I "replied" to wooly.bully and corrected his wrong impression of
"partitions vs. logical drives", PERHAPS YOU should read?

BAR wrote:

Bob I: put on your glasses and read carefully: in my text was ' thus
an extended partition can have an unlimited number of Logical Drives
each '.

"Bob I" wrote:


Only 4 PRIMARY partitions. I suspect you have 2, a Primary, and an
Extended which has been sliced in to 4 logicals.

wrote:


On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 04:05:03 -0800, BAR
wrote:



A full guide to XP drive management and terminolgy.

Windows XP supports up to four partitions per hard disk.


Well I guess I broke that rule since I currently have (5) partitions
(F: G: H: I J on my SATA drive in my Windows XP system. Or does this
only apply to the first drive?

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 04:05:03 -0800, BAR

good stuff snipped

Windows XP supports three file systems NTFS, FAT32 and FAT

FATxx includes FAT12, FAT16 and FAT32, though it's unlikely you'd have
any HD volumes small enough to use FAT12. FWIW, I use the term
"volume" to refer to both primary partitions and logical volumes
within an extended partition. AFAIK there may be mutiple primary
partitions, but no more than one extended partition per HD.

Limitations for each file system a
FAT only addresses up to 4Gb of disk space [Windows XP, 95 and earlier
Windows versions only]

Detail:
- NT can support 4G FAT16 volumes with 64k clusters
- Win95SR2 thru WinME support only up to 2G FAT16 with 32k clusters

FAT32 - only addresses up to 32Gb of disk space [Windows XP, Me 98 and 95
Second Edition]

False.

FAT32 supports HDs and volumes well over 32G, even beyond 137G, but
not all FAT32-capable OSs support HDs over 137G (such support starts
from XP SP1, AFAIK). All OSs that support FAT32, support FAT32 32G.

It's just that XP's volume formatter is not only too lame to format
FAT32 volumes over 32G, but is even too lame to realize its
limitations and avoid rtying. Instead, it starts to format the volume
(losing any data that was there), and grinds along until it hits 32G,
then it falls over because the volume is "too big".

This is not a FAT32 issue; it is an XP quality failure problem.

NTFS - addresses up to 2,000Gb of disk space [Windows XP]

AFAIK 2TB is the max limit for FAT32 as well.

One would use a partitioned hard drive formatted as FAT32 or FAT should one
wish to accommodate a dual boot system [running XP or an earlier Operating
System].
Should one have Windows XP Pro, a further benefit of NTFS is that files can
be encrypted.

Very much a two-edged sword, that, given casual use of EFS without a
full understanding and management of the implications is likely to end
up in tears, if the encryption key info is lost.

On FATxx vs. NTFS, http://cquirke.mvps.org/ntfs.htm refers.



-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Tip Of The Day:
To disable the 'Tip of the Day' feature...
-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:03:32 -0500, wrote:
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 04:05:03 -0800, BAR

Windows XP supports up to four partitions per hard disk.

Well I guess I broke that rule since I currently have (5) partitions
(F: G: H: I J on my SATA drive in my Windows XP system. Or does this
only apply to the first drive?

It's not a Windows thing, it is a system thing.

The system defines the structure of the partition table, one of which
is held in each physical HD. It is this that limits you to 4
partitions per physical HD.

Windows is an OS, and OSs are "guests" of the system. Each OS resides
in one or more partitions. Each partition has a type byte that OSs
can refer to to recognise partitions and file systems they can use.
If they don't recognise the partition type, they are to ignore that
partition, and should never write any information to it.

There are two ways to break this limit:

1) Extend the system's partitioning scheme

This is what some system-level boot managers, such as BING, do. They
extend the standard partition table to hold more partitions, storing
this additional information elsewhere in the HD.

For this to work, the boot manager's "special" code has to run at
boot, as it will if that HD's Master Boot Record (MBR) code is booted
up. But if this code is replaced by standard system MBR code (e.g.
FDisk /MBR, Recovery Console FixMBR, some av's boot cleanup) or if a
different device is booted so the MBR code is bypassed, then it all
falls apart; only the "real" partition table is seen.

2) Use an extended partition to hold more (logical) volumes

MS OSs use the "extended" partition type as a container for multiple
volumes, each of which with its own file system and drive letter.
This is most likely how your system appears to break the 4-partition
rule. Lately, several other OSs such as Linux also recognise extended
partition and can use the space inside to hold their own logical
volumes. When these use file systems unknown to MS, problems may
arise when MS tools are used to manage the extended partition.

For example, when I installed Linux, I was surprised to see it
locating its three volumes within the existing extended partition,
instead of the free space outside all existing partitions that I'd set
aside for it. In fact, it resized the extended partition to fill that
free space, and then used this new space within the extended partition
for its own hard drive volumes.



------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
The most accurate diagnostic instrument
in medicine is the Retrospectoscope
------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

"cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 04:05:03 -0800, BAR

good stuff snipped

Windows XP supports three file systems NTFS, FAT32 and FAT

FATxx includes FAT12, FAT16 and FAT32, though it's unlikely you'd have
any HD volumes small enough to use FAT12. FWIW, I use the term
"volume" to refer to both primary partitions and logical volumes
within an extended partition. AFAIK there may be mutiple primary
partitions, but no more than one extended partition per HD.

Limitations for each file system a
FAT only addresses up to 4Gb of disk space [Windows XP, 95 and earlier
Windows versions only]

Detail:
- NT can support 4G FAT16 volumes with 64k clusters
- Win95SR2 thru WinME support only up to 2G FAT16 with 32k clusters

FAT32 - only addresses up to 32Gb of disk space [Windows XP, Me 98 and 95
Second Edition]

False.

FAT32 supports HDs and volumes well over 32G, even beyond 137G, but
not all FAT32-capable OSs support HDs over 137G (such support starts
from XP SP1, AFAIK). All OSs that support FAT32, support FAT32 32G.

It's just that XP's volume formatter is not only too lame to format
FAT32 volumes over 32G, but is even too lame to realize its
limitations and avoid rtying. Instead, it starts to format the volume
(losing any data that was there), and grinds along until it hits 32G,
then it falls over because the volume is "too big".

This is not a FAT32 issue; it is an XP quality failure problem.

While that may be your opinion of lameness, using a partition size on FAT32
on anything bigger that 16gs, is a waste anyway IMHO, besides the facts of
the file size limits FAT32 has. In todays larger drives that are available,
it is a waste to use it. I consider that function made purposefully for the
sole reason of wasting space and performance.


NTFS - addresses up to 2,000Gb of disk space [Windows XP]

AFAIK 2TB is the max limit for FAT32 as well.

Correct for both filing systems, for drive support that is, but:

The maximum possible number of clusters on a volume using the FAT32 file
system is 268,435,445. With a maximum of 32 KB per cluster with space for
the file allocation table (FAT), this equates to a maximum disk size of
approximately 8 terabytes (TB).

NTFS can be 16 exabytes.


snipped

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:49:12 -0500, "Tom" wrote:

Logical drives are bootable, or else dual-boot scenarios would not be
possible.

False - the bulk of an OS's code may reside on a logical volume, but
standard system MBR code does not transfer control to logical volumes
within an extended partition. There has to be bridging boot code on a
primary partition to do this; an OS in a logical is booted from there.

Clickfood on multiboot strategies, etc.:

http://cquirke.mvps.org/multboot.htm

http://cquirke.mvps.org/multplan.htm

http://cquirke.mvps.org/multos.htm

FWIW, my take on partition vs. volume terminology:

http://cquirke.mvps.org/9x/partition.htm

HTH



---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Gone to bloggery: http://cquirke.blogspot.com
---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

"cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)" wrote in
message ...
(snip)
It's just that XP's volume formatter is not only too lame to format
FAT32 volumes over 32G, but is even too lame to realize its
limitations and avoid (tr)ying. Instead, it starts to format the volume
(losing any data that was there), and grinds along until it hits 32G,
then it falls over because the volume is "too big".

This is not a FAT32 issue; it is an XP quality failure problem.


Hi:
I'm aware, of course, as I'm sure most of us are, that XP will not format a
FAT32 volume 32 GB. But I have never run into the situation where, through
XP's Disk Management utility, it begins formatting a partition than 32 GB
in FAT32 and then "grinds along until it hits 32G, then it falls over
because the volume is "too big".". In every instance I've encountered, XP
will not provide a FAT32 formatting option if the partition is 32 GB. And
to the best of my knowledge this same restriction is present using the XP
installation CD. Have you actually experienced the situation you describe?
Anna

HI, Tom.

"Tom" wrote in message
...
I guees semantics here is what is the issue, anyway, here goes:

Agreed. ;^} It's semantics. But it's important, if we ever hope to
understand each other.

I said and you said:
A logical drive can be a "Boot Volume" - but you can't boot from it. :(

And I never said one could :-).

Well, yes, you did. From your 9:07am (CST) post this morning:
Logical drives are bootable, or else dual-boot scenarios would not be
possible.

Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's what you said. ;^}


As I understand the term "boot", as used in computing, it means powering on
a cold, lifeless computer and having it "pull itself up by its own
bootstraps" to become a working system.

Only a Primary Partition can START this process.

Any volume (primary partition or logical drive) can continue the process,
once C:\NTLDR, with the help of C:\NTDETECT.COM and C:\Boot.ini, has got
things started. You may refer to this as "booting Windows", but we "boot
the computer" and then it "loads Windows".

In the old days, we booted into MS-DOS and then loaded Windows 98.
Nowadays, we don't load any other operating system before WinXP itself. So
the dividing line is not as clear as before, but there are still two
distinct phases in the process.

Still, no matter how many boot volumes you have, you cannot use one to
"boot" (start) the computer -unless it is a primary partition, is marked
Active, and is also the System Partition.

Ain't semantics fun? ;^]

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP

"R. C. White" wrote in message
...
Hi, Tom - and all.

One big problem in discussing this is the several ambiguous meanings of
some terms, such as "drive", "partition" - and "boot". :(

As many writers have commented, "We BOOT from the SYSTEM partition and
keep the operating SYSTEM files in the BOOT volume." Microsoft didn't
invent this terminology, but continues to use it.

The boot process must begin in the System Partition, which must be on the
boot device (typically the master HD on the primary IDE controller); this
must be the Active (bootable) partition, which means it must be a Primary
Partition.

Right, I stated that regarding Primary partitions in my post to Tim.

snipped)

Logical drives are bootable, or else dual-boot scenarios would not be
possible. He just needs to use the context correctly, or else taken as
it is written would negate bootable logical drives. IOWs, if you have a
dual-boot setup (Primary/logical), you can select after the BIOS post,
to what OS you want to boot, hence it is bootable; it simply doesn't
contain the bootloader, which is at the beginning of the Primary
partition.

Logical drives are not bootable.

Read what I said, to get into a logical drive, you need to boot into it,
as I pointed out in post BIOS load. All I said was from actually
"booting", if a partition cannot be booted into, then it isn't bootable. I
simply mean literally, that when one chooses a dual-boot, they choose to
which one they want to boot into, hence, it is bootable from that
standpoint. Regardless of what you boot into, the Post BIOS choice is
there to make the boot.

A dual-boot must start in the System Partition (which must be a Primary
Partition).

I said this regarding the Primary drive in my post to Tim

A logical drive can be a "Boot Volume" - but you can't boot from it. :(

And I never said one could :-). refer to my post BIOS comments in this
reply, and the one before.

"R. C. White" wrote:
One big problem in discussing this is the several ambiguous
meanings of some terms, such as "drive", "partition" - and
"boot". :(

As many writers have commented, "We BOOT from the
SYSTEM partition and keep the operating SYSTEM files in
the BOOT volume." Microsoft didn't invent this terminology,
but continues to use it.

The boot process must begin in the System Partition, which
must be on the boot device (typically the master HD on the
primary IDE controller); this must be the Active (bootable) partition,
which means it must be a Primary Partition. This partition must
have the proper NT-style Boot Sector, and 3 files (NTLDR,
NTDETECT.COM and Boot.ini) must be in the Root of that
partition. (In some installations, a few other files, such as
NTBOOTDD.SYS, are required, but these are not typical.)

All the rest of Windows (all recent versions, at least) must be
in the Boot Folder in the Boot Volume. The Boot Folder is
named \Windows, by default. (Except in WinNT and Win2K,
where the default is \WinNT; in an upgrade installation, the
new Windows installation inherits the name of the earlier
version, so some WinXP boot folders are named \WinNT.)
This Boot Folder - and its many subfolders - hold the GB or
so of WinXP files.

The Boot Volume can be any volume, either a primary partition
or a logical drive, on any HD in the computer. (Maybe it could
also be on an external HD or a rewritable CD/DVD - or even a
very large USB flash drive, but I don't know about that.) The
Boot Volume may share the System Partition - and typically does.
There should be a separate Boot Volume for each installation
of Windows; Microsoft (and nearly all other gurus) strongly advise
against putting two Windows installations into a single volume.

[............]
Logical drives are not bootable. A dual-boot must start in the
System Partition (which must be a Primary Partition). But
C:\Boot.ini will point to the Boot Folder, which may very well be
in a logical drive. (In my own system, C: is a small FAT-formatted
primary partition on my IBM SCSI HD; my main WinXP is in
D:\Windows, an NTFS-formatted logical drive in the extended
partition on that SCSI HD; other Windows installations are
in F:, L:, and X:, all logical drives in extended partitions on my
two IDE HDs and all NTFS. My boot process starts with
C:\NTLDR and then branches to D:\Windows - or wherever.)

A logical drive can be a "Boot Volume" - but you can't boot from it.
:(


Yes. You are totally correct. Significant points are that the "boot files"
are in the SYSTEM volume (partition), and the Operating System is in
the BOOT volume (partition), and the two volumes (partitions) need not
be the same or even on the same hard drive. The SYSTEM partition
must be a Primary partition and it must be flagged as "active". The
BOOT partition (containing the OS), can be a Primary partition or a
Logical Drive in an Extended partition.

*TimDaniels*

"R. C. White" wrote in message
...
HI, Tom.

"Tom" wrote in message
...
I guees semantics here is what is the issue, anyway, here goes:

Agreed. ;^} It's semantics. But it's important, if we ever hope to
understand each other.

I said and you said:
A logical drive can be a "Boot Volume" - but you can't boot from it.
:(

And I never said one could :-).

Well, yes, you did. From your 9:07am (CST) post this morning:
Logical drives are bootable, or else dual-boot scenarios would not be
possible.

Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's what you said. ;^}

But you excluded the rest of that paragraph, as I went on to explain it; so
you took it out of context.

My first statement regarding this was (not to you, but to Tim), and you
made your first reply to this:

"Logical drives are bootable, or else dual-boot scenarios would not be
possible. He just needs to use the context correctly, or else taken as it is
written would negate bootable logical drives. IOWs, if you have a dual-boot
setup (Primary/logical), you can select after the BIOS post, to what OS you
want to boot, hence it is bootable; it simply doesn't contain the
bootloader, which is at the beginning of the Primary partition."

snipped


Only a Primary Partition can START this process.


And I said this already. If you're posting this bit of info as to tell me
something you think I don't know, then you are reading very selectively.
Please read ALL of a post when replying, you would save yourself trying to
assure others what they already know, because you didn't read what the
entirety of their posts

snipped pertaining info


Still, no matter how many boot volumes you have, you cannot use one to
"boot" (start) the computer -unless it is a primary partition, is marked
Active, and is also the System Partition.

As I already stated, that I made this in my previous posts.

Tim said :
A primary partition is one from which one can boot up an Operating
System.

Tom said:
This is true, since he said *an* operating system, as you have to have a
Primary drive to do so, which will contain the bootloader.

Ain't semantics fun? ;^]

Not if if what people say are taken out of context :-).

"Timothy Daniels" wrote in message
...
"R. C. White" wrote:
One big problem in discussing this is the several ambiguous
meanings of some terms, such as "drive", "partition" - and
"boot". :(

As many writers have commented, "We BOOT from the
SYSTEM partition and keep the operating SYSTEM files in
the BOOT volume." Microsoft didn't invent this terminology,
but continues to use it.

The boot process must begin in the System Partition, which
must be on the boot device (typically the master HD on the
primary IDE controller); this must be the Active (bootable) partition,
which means it must be a Primary Partition. This partition must
have the proper NT-style Boot Sector, and 3 files (NTLDR,
NTDETECT.COM and Boot.ini) must be in the Root of that partition. (In
some installations, a few other files, such as
NTBOOTDD.SYS, are required, but these are not typical.)

All the rest of Windows (all recent versions, at least) must be
in the Boot Folder in the Boot Volume. The Boot Folder is
named \Windows, by default. (Except in WinNT and Win2K,
where the default is \WinNT; in an upgrade installation, the
new Windows installation inherits the name of the earlier version, so
some WinXP boot folders are named \WinNT.)
This Boot Folder - and its many subfolders - hold the GB or
so of WinXP files.

The Boot Volume can be any volume, either a primary partition
or a logical drive, on any HD in the computer. (Maybe it could
also be on an external HD or a rewritable CD/DVD - or even a
very large USB flash drive, but I don't know about that.) The
Boot Volume may share the System Partition - and typically does.
There should be a separate Boot Volume for each installation
of Windows; Microsoft (and nearly all other gurus) strongly advise
against putting two Windows installations into a single volume.

[............]
Logical drives are not bootable. A dual-boot must start in the
System Partition (which must be a Primary Partition). But
C:\Boot.ini will point to the Boot Folder, which may very well be
in a logical drive. (In my own system, C: is a small FAT-formatted
primary partition on my IBM SCSI HD; my main WinXP is in
D:\Windows, an NTFS-formatted logical drive in the extended
partition on that SCSI HD; other Windows installations are
in F:, L:, and X:, all logical drives in extended partitions on my
two IDE HDs and all NTFS. My boot process starts with
C:\NTLDR and then branches to D:\Windows - or wherever.)

A logical drive can be a "Boot Volume" - but you can't boot from it.
:(


Yes. You are totally correct. Significant points are that the "boot
files"
are in the SYSTEM volume (partition), and the Operating System is in
the BOOT volume (partition), and the two volumes (partitions) need not
be the same or even on the same hard drive. The SYSTEM partition
must be a Primary partition and it must be flagged as "active". The
BOOT partition (containing the OS), can be a Primary partition or a
Logical Drive in an Extended partition.

*TimDaniels*

Note, that any operating system installed in multiple boot scenarios are all
"active", since the boot process to load them (in the extended/logical) are
on the Primary partition, which has to have the bootloader at the beginning
of it.

"cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:49:12 -0500, "Tom" wrote:

Logical drives are bootable, or else dual-boot scenarios would not be
possible.

False - the bulk of an OS's code may reside on a logical volume, but
standard system MBR code does not transfer control to logical volumes
within an extended partition. There has to be bridging boot code on a
primary partition to do this; an OS in a logical is booted from there.

Clickfood on multiboot strategies, etc.:

http://cquirke.mvps.org/multboot.htm

http://cquirke.mvps.org/multplan.htm

http://cquirke.mvps.org/multos.htm

FWIW, my take on partition vs. volume terminology:

http://cquirke.mvps.org/9x/partition.htm

HTH

As I noted to RC, read the whole post, and not take out context what I said.
When I say bootable in this case, I mean the OS can be booted to from the
list after the BIOS post. I won't requeest any further that you should
include the whole reading the next time :-).

"Tom" wrote:
"Timothy Daniels" wrote:
"R. C. White" wrote:
One big problem in discussing this is the several ambiguous
meanings of some terms, such as "drive", "partition" - and
"boot". :(

As many writers have commented, "We BOOT from the
SYSTEM partition and keep the operating SYSTEM files in
the BOOT volume." Microsoft didn't invent this terminology,
but continues to use it.

The boot process must begin in the System Partition, which
must be on the boot device (typically the master HD on the
primary IDE controller); this must be the Active (bootable) partition,
which means it must be a Primary Partition. This partition must
have the proper NT-style Boot Sector, and 3 files (NTLDR,
NTDETECT.COM and Boot.ini) must be in the Root of that partition. (In
some installations, a few other files, such as
NTBOOTDD.SYS, are required, but these are not typical.)

All the rest of Windows (all recent versions, at least) must be
in the Boot Folder in the Boot Volume. The Boot Folder is
named \Windows, by default. (Except in WinNT and Win2K,
where the default is \WinNT; in an upgrade installation, the
new Windows installation inherits the name of the earlier version, so
some WinXP boot folders are named \WinNT.)
This Boot Folder - and its many subfolders - hold the GB or
so of WinXP files.

The Boot Volume can be any volume, either a primary partition
or a logical drive, on any HD in the computer. (Maybe it could
also be on an external HD or a rewritable CD/DVD - or even a
very large USB flash drive, but I don't know about that.) The
Boot Volume may share the System Partition - and typically does.
There should be a separate Boot Volume for each installation
of Windows; Microsoft (and nearly all other gurus) strongly advise
against putting two Windows installations into a single volume.

[............]
Logical drives are not bootable. A dual-boot must start in the
System Partition (which must be a Primary Partition). But
C:\Boot.ini will point to the Boot Folder, which may very well be
in a logical drive. (In my own system, C: is a small FAT-formatted
primary partition on my IBM SCSI HD; my main WinXP is in
D:\Windows, an NTFS-formatted logical drive in the extended
partition on that SCSI HD; other Windows installations are
in F:, L:, and X:, all logical drives in extended partitions on my
two IDE HDs and all NTFS. My boot process starts with
C:\NTLDR and then branches to D:\Windows - or wherever.)

A logical drive can be a "Boot Volume" - but you can't boot from it.
:(


Yes. You are totally correct. Significant points are that the "boot
files"
are in the SYSTEM volume (partition), and the Operating System is in
the BOOT volume (partition), and the two volumes (partitions) need not
be the same or even on the same hard drive. The SYSTEM partition
must be a Primary partition and it must be flagged as "active". The
BOOT partition (containing the OS), can be a Primary partition or a
Logical Drive in an Extended partition.

*TimDaniels*

Note, that any operating system installed in multiple boot scenarios are all
"active", since the boot process to load them (in the extended/logical) are
on the Primary partition, which has to have the bootloader at the beginning
of it.


If by "boot loader" you mean ntldr, it must be in the "active" Primary
partition of the hard drive that is at the head of the BIOS's HD boot
sequence, but the OSes that it loads may be from any of other
Primary partitions and logical drives in the system, none of which
even have to be on the same hard drive as ntldr.

*TimDaniels*

"Timothy Daniels" wrote in message
...
"Tom" wrote:
"Timothy Daniels" wrote:
"R. C. White" wrote:
One big problem in discussing this is the several ambiguous
meanings of some terms, such as "drive", "partition" - and
"boot". :(

As many writers have commented, "We BOOT from the
SYSTEM partition and keep the operating SYSTEM files in
the BOOT volume." Microsoft didn't invent this terminology,
but continues to use it.

The boot process must begin in the System Partition, which
must be on the boot device (typically the master HD on the
primary IDE controller); this must be the Active (bootable) partition,
which means it must be a Primary Partition. This partition must
have the proper NT-style Boot Sector, and 3 files (NTLDR,
NTDETECT.COM and Boot.ini) must be in the Root of that partition. (In
some installations, a few other files, such as
NTBOOTDD.SYS, are required, but these are not typical.)

All the rest of Windows (all recent versions, at least) must be
in the Boot Folder in the Boot Volume. The Boot Folder is
named \Windows, by default. (Except in WinNT and Win2K,
where the default is \WinNT; in an upgrade installation, the
new Windows installation inherits the name of the earlier version, so
some WinXP boot folders are named \WinNT.)
This Boot Folder - and its many subfolders - hold the GB or
so of WinXP files.

The Boot Volume can be any volume, either a primary partition
or a logical drive, on any HD in the computer. (Maybe it could
also be on an external HD or a rewritable CD/DVD - or even a
very large USB flash drive, but I don't know about that.) The
Boot Volume may share the System Partition - and typically does.
There should be a separate Boot Volume for each installation
of Windows; Microsoft (and nearly all other gurus) strongly advise
against putting two Windows installations into a single volume.

[............]
Logical drives are not bootable. A dual-boot must start in the
System Partition (which must be a Primary Partition). But
C:\Boot.ini will point to the Boot Folder, which may very well be
in a logical drive. (In my own system, C: is a small FAT-formatted
primary partition on my IBM SCSI HD; my main WinXP is in
D:\Windows, an NTFS-formatted logical drive in the extended
partition on that SCSI HD; other Windows installations are
in F:, L:, and X:, all logical drives in extended partitions on my
two IDE HDs and all NTFS. My boot process starts with
C:\NTLDR and then branches to D:\Windows - or wherever.)

A logical drive can be a "Boot Volume" - but you can't boot from it.
:(


Yes. You are totally correct. Significant points are that the "boot
files"
are in the SYSTEM volume (partition), and the Operating System is in
the BOOT volume (partition), and the two volumes (partitions) need not
be the same or even on the same hard drive. The SYSTEM partition
must be a Primary partition and it must be flagged as "active". The
BOOT partition (containing the OS), can be a Primary partition or a
Logical Drive in an Extended partition.

*TimDaniels*

Note, that any operating system installed in multiple boot scenarios are
all "active", since the boot process to load them (in the
extended/logical) are on the Primary partition, which has to have the
bootloader at the beginning of it.


If by "boot loader" you mean ntldr, it must be in the "active" Primary
partition of the hard drive that is at the head of the BIOS's HD boot
sequence, but the OSes that it loads may be from any of other
Primary partitions and logical drives in the system, none of which
even have to be on the same hard drive as ntldr.

*TimDaniels*

That isn't what I mean. All bootloaders are on any given Primary drive; you
can have 3 OSes on 3 primary drives, and they will have their own
bootloaders, but then you'll need a boot manager to get into those OSes.
What I said was, that any primary/logical setup, whereas you have e.g. three
OSes installed on them (1st OS primary, 2 and 3 on the extend/logicals),
they are all by default "active". This because the bootloaders for all the
OSes reside on the "active" (Primary) partition. This is why one has a
choice to what OS they can boot into when they get to that option after the
BIOS post.