Firefox SECRETLY storing your login credentials?

"default" wrote

| I laughed at my old man when he told me that TV sets would one day be
| worn on the wrist just like the old comic strip "Dick Tracy" showed. I
| knew TVs' were huge heavy things that could never fit on a wrist, yet
| we have them today.

Yes, but we're still waiting for a lightweight
microscope that clips on to earbud wires, so
that we can see what's on TV.

On 11/12/2018 14:41, nospam wrote:
In article , David B.
wrote:


There's no way for anyone here to KNOW the truth. shrug

yes there is, and it ain't from you.

Read the post by 'default' and educate yourself!

I confess that I was a little surprised that someone here DOES know the
truth! :-)

--
Regards,
David B.

In article , David B.
wrote:

Just because the phone appears to be turned off, doesn't mean it is.

yes it does.

Anyone can download an app that can turn it into a surveillance
device.

they could, but they'd have to launch it for it to take effect.

Once it is on the phone the phone can be remotely monitored it doesn't
require that the app be launched.

yes it does.

You don't understand how microprocessors work.

The android operating system (any/every OS) is programmed into a chip.
It is not carved in silicon, it is in a "protected" area of memory,
but it can be accessed and modified.

The processor chip has to (it is a requirement) to allow for something
called interrupts where it is told to break the routine it is running
and go off and do something else. That is done on a "machine level"
(totally ones and zeros in registers - memory locations- that makes
little sense to humans)

It would be child's play for someone (with the knowledge) to integrate
a few snippets of code that runs in the background and never alerts
the operator (malicious code does it all the time - the processor
doesn't know the difference)

The phone doesn't have an on-off switch, it has a pushbutton that
sends a request to the processor to send it into a hibernate state.
(that is what "off" is to you) The battery is still connected and
still feeding a trickle of power to the processor. The uP can wake
itself periodically to check some variable (like sound, light,
movement, etc.) It can go to sleep and wake up for a few microseconds
every second or less with minimal change in battery drain.
[snipped for brevity only]

What a wonderful post! :-D

and factually incorrect.

In article , David B.
wrote:

There's no way for anyone here to KNOW the truth. shrug

yes there is, and it ain't from you.

Read the post by 'default' and educate yourself!

i read it and it's complete bull****.

I confess that I was a little surprised that someone here DOES know the
truth! :-)

yep, and it's not who you think it is.

In article , Wolf K
wrote:

if it hasn't been launched, it's not running, so it's not tracking
anything, and if the phone is off, nothing is running and no tracking
can occur.

You're right if by "off" you power off.

yep.

However, AFAICT, most people just press the off button, which blanks the
screen and stops a few apps, but leaves the phone powered on, so that
they can receive calls/texts. After all, that's why they carry the phone.

yep.

however, that doesn't mean an app can be remotely launched which
activates the camera and microphone and secretly spies on someone.

http://www.ktre.com/story/5777429/co...your-cell-phon
e-to-spy-on-you/
"The FBI can access cell phones and modify them remotely without ever
having to physically handle them,"
....
According to the recent court ruling by U.S. District Court Judge
Lewis Kaplan, "The device functioned whether the phone was powered
on or off, intercepting conversations within its range wherever it
happened to be."

that is simply false. full stop.

if the phone is off, it's not intercepting *anything*.

I rarely power off my phone. A charge lasts about two days in simple off
mode. When I've activated Bluetooth, it lats about one day.

if by 'simple off mode', you mean sleep, that's not off. do not confuse
the two.

also, bluetooth uses a negligible amount of power with only a slight
impact to battery life, especially when it's not actively being used.

In article , default
wrote:

Just because the phone appears to be turned off, doesn't mean it is.

yes it does.

Anyone can download an app that can turn it into a surveillance
device.

they could, but they'd have to launch it for it to take effect.

Once it is on the phone the phone can be remotely monitored it doesn't
require that the app be launched.

yes it does.

You don't understand how microprocessors work.

oh yes i do.

The android operating system (any/every OS) is programmed into a chip.
It is not carved in silicon, it is in a "protected" area of memory,
but it can be accessed and modified.

not easily, it can't.

The processor chip has to (it is a requirement) to allow for something
called interrupts where it is told to break the routine it is running
and go off and do something else. That is done on a "machine level"
(totally ones and zeros in registers - memory locations- that makes
little sense to humans)

including you.

It would be child's play for someone (with the knowledge) to integrate
a few snippets of code that runs in the background and never alerts
the operator (malicious code does it all the time - the processor
doesn't know the difference)

nope. it's definitely not child's play and requires *much* more than a
few snippets of code to run in the background.

The phone doesn't have an on-off switch, it has a pushbutton that
sends a request to the processor to send it into a hibernate state.
(that is what "off" is to you) The battery is still connected and
still feeding a trickle of power to the processor. The uP can wake
itself periodically to check some variable (like sound, light,
movement, etc.) It can go to sleep and wake up for a few microseconds
every second or less with minimal change in battery drain.

nope.

the on/off switch is managed by a separate power management chip,
completely separate from the main cpu.

the main cpu is *off*. it's far too power hungry to be on all the time
waiting for a button press.

As long as the battery is connected and charged, the phone is not off,
it is just hibernating and waiting for a button push.

only the power management chip is on. the rest of the device is off,
including the radios, which means *it* cannot be remotely accessed.

The company you bought your phone from, programs them wirelessly using
wireless capability already built into wireless phones.

no they definitely don't. not even close to correct.

They don't
open them up and tinker with the guts - they are sales people and
wouldn't know how, but they do know how to access your phone and
activate it even if they don't know what activation entails.

also wrong.

I program controllers that use all the same things a cell phone does.

cell phones don't use the same controllers you use.

I needed a device to behave differently (refuse to come on when it was
dark out). I just had it wake itself every 15 minutes and check the
light and when it sensed enough light it would allow the operator to
turn it on and become active. The operator didn't know what the
processor was doing only that it didn't do anything when it was dark.

That could just as easily been a sound and I could program it to check
for noise every second and it would still get plenty of sleep time and
not drain the battery...

not relevant to a cellphone.

A cell phone can do the same things and you would never have to know
about it. It could, for instance, record every conversation nearby
and store it digitally in a compressed format, time stamp it, stamp
the GPS coordinates, etc.. I could have it wait until it was by a
wifi, or cell phone tower, and dump the recorded conversations in one
fast burst transmission. Even if the phone was in a faraday shield it
could still be recording and only phone home when it was let out.
Minimal battery drain too....

only if an app was running and definitely not minimal battery drain.

I know you'd like to think that apps need permission and all, and IF
the people vetting the apps are doing their jobs that is true. But
you can't check the app yourself to see if it is doing what it claims.

false.

it's very easy to determine which apps are running and how much data
they're using.

also, the phone would be warmer than normal if it was transmitting back
to some outside entity and the battery would be dead in hours.

That's where the spy apps you can buy operate. Most of them need
physical access to a cell phone to put the app on them, but once it is
on there, it can hide it's operation from the OS and the operator.

exactly what i said, that physical access is required to modify the
phone.

And when was the last time you read the boiler plate legal statements
laughingly referred to as "privacy statements?" You can often find
the legalese written in such a way as to allow, just what they seem to
be telling you they would never do. A team of Philadelphia lawyers
might understand privacy statements but they are often written to
obfuscate, not enlighten.

the legal statements do not give free access to monitor and record user
actions.

The feds can do pretty much the same things, without even having the
phone anywhere nearby; as long as it is communicating with cell towers
or wifi. They are using the same technology that the cell phone
company uses to program your phone.

no they can't, and the cell phone company doesn't program anything.

you have no clue about this stuff.

Most folks get their phone and look at the pretty screen and think,
"how nice it has the weather." That weather app knows your GPS
location and it can just as easily tell someone where that phone is,
if it is part of it's program. Nearly all apps have the ability to
"update." Every time you turn the phone on, or periodically, it may
be checking for dozens of app updates and sending your location back
to someone else.

checking the weather is not the same as secretly recording audio or
video.

Data mining companies are big business, there's money in it.

quite a bit, however, that has nothing to do with hacking people's
phones.

You, my friend, are a guppy swimming in shark infested waters and are
blissfully unaware of it.

ad hominem.

unlike you i'm *very* aware of what can and cannot be done.

nospam wrote:


and there's still the question how a phone that's off can be remotely
turned on by some magical signal that is received by a radio that's
off.

RFID-like schemes transmit enough power to run
circuitry. You could do it that way.

To do that city wide, would just take a powerful
transmitter, operating on some frequency other
than the cellphone frequency. The addressed
responding device, only has to operate its
transmitter and regular receiver, long enough
to ping back. That wouldn't run the battery
down too much, since the regular circuitry
goes back to sleep until the passive RFID
chunk receives another burst of energy
during the next ping.

Paul

default wrote:


It would be child's play for someone (with the knowledge) to integrate
a few snippets of code that runs in the background and never alerts
the operator (malicious code does it all the time - the processor
doesn't know the difference)

That's already in your desktop.

It's called SMM.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Management_Mode

It can run 30 times a second, and the OS doesn't
know it is happening. It totally preempts the OS
when running. You can observe its presence indirectly
using DPCLAT (on older OSes). The SMM code is in
the BIOS (that's where it's supposed to come from),
and we don't know if there is any way for OS level
exploitation or not, by a bad actor.

The SMM code is installed by the motherboard company.
A typical usage is for switching off unused "phases"
on the VCore regulator. Asus has also used it to run
the 5.25" iPanel tray display they used to sell.
The iPanel would send an SMI to the computer, to
receive SMM "service".

http://ixbtlabs.com/articles/asusipanelbasic/index.html

If you check Google, you'll find references to
"SMM rootkits". Whether those are a practical
concern, who knows.

A well-written SMM subroutine, only takes 10us to
100us or so. It doesn't run for a long time, and
as a consequence, it's hard to tell it is upsetting
machine operation. People who build audio recording
workstations, are the ones who care about SMM and
how long it runs per invocation.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/medi...l?d=1260040283

That tool doesn't work properly on Windows 10 (apparently).
Which means some detail about DPC has changed.

Paul

On 11/12/2018 09:17, default wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 09:41:23 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Mayayana
wrote:

"David B." "David wrote
| Even if you/we THINK that a device is 'off' it COULD still be in
| communication with an outside entity.
|

I know my Tracphone is off when I turn it
off because the charge will last for months and
it can't get calls. It could certainly have some
kind of beacon in it, but that seems very unlikely.
It only cost $10.

exactly.

if your phone was transmitting to some outside entity, the battery
would be dead within hours.


That's only true if the phone is fully functioning. It could still
record audio with just a tiny smidgen of the power it takes to receive
and transmit. Compress the audio and transmit in a burst and you'd
never know it by the battery capacity.

you would definitely notice a dead battery when you turned it on, or
tried to.

if it received a call or text while 'off', you'd definitely know
something unusual was going on.

You wouldn't know if a background program was running. The uP is
always on. In a well designed secure system it is only supposed to be
checking the power button every few milliseconds. But off and
hibernate are not the same thing. The little controllers I like to
use have: sleep, nap, rest, and hibernate. They all save the battery
life, but there is no such thing as off. The different sleep states
are just there because some functions can be programmed to run while
the thing is sleeping...

It only shuts down when the battery drops below a certain level,
that's an automatic function designed to prolong battery life, but I
can tell it to ignore that feature and let it run until it hasn't got
enough energy to function. Not a good practice with rechargeable
batteries but acceptable for disposable batteries or super capacitors
- the chip only does what it was programmed to do.


and there's still the question how a phone that's off can be remotely
turned on by some magical signal that is received by a radio that's
off.

I don't know about Android and iPhone, but I'm
guessing that people think off means the screen
is black because few people actually turn them
off.

you guess wrong.

people are well aware of the difference between sleep versus fully off.

people don't turn off their phones because if they did, they would not
be able to receive calls, texts and push notifications. it would also
take a minute or two to boot if they wanted to use an app or call/text
someone.

It can be on and still act as if it is off. You have no way of
telling without some pretty sophisticated test equipment, and even
then, if I thought it may be monitored I'd find a way for it to hide
all activity until the threat passed.

they also might be listening to music, podcasts or internet radio with
the phone in their pocket, screen off.

The condition of the screen doesn't indicate what the phone is doing,
it is just there so the operator can tell what it wants you to know or
allow you to do.

Is your computer/device CLOCK wrong?

Are you willing to disclose your credentials - do you have a LinkedIn
persona, for example, to give more credibility to your words? (in case
of doubt, I believe YOU - I do NOT believe 'nospam', who I know to be
untrustworthy).

--
Regards,
David B.

https://vxer.home.blog/2018/12/08/vxer-a-profile/

On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 16:44:08 +0000, "David B." "David
wrote:

On 11/12/2018 09:17, default wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 09:41:23 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Mayayana
wrote:

"David B." "David wrote
| Even if you/we THINK that a device is 'off' it COULD still be in
| communication with an outside entity.
|

I know my Tracphone is off when I turn it
off because the charge will last for months and
it can't get calls. It could certainly have some
kind of beacon in it, but that seems very unlikely.
It only cost $10.

exactly.

if your phone was transmitting to some outside entity, the battery
would be dead within hours.


That's only true if the phone is fully functioning. It could still
record audio with just a tiny smidgen of the power it takes to receive
and transmit. Compress the audio and transmit in a burst and you'd
never know it by the battery capacity.

you would definitely notice a dead battery when you turned it on, or
tried to.

if it received a call or text while 'off', you'd definitely know
something unusual was going on.

You wouldn't know if a background program was running. The uP is
always on. In a well designed secure system it is only supposed to be
checking the power button every few milliseconds. But off and
hibernate are not the same thing. The little controllers I like to
use have: sleep, nap, rest, and hibernate. They all save the battery
life, but there is no such thing as off. The different sleep states
are just there because some functions can be programmed to run while
the thing is sleeping...

It only shuts down when the battery drops below a certain level,
that's an automatic function designed to prolong battery life, but I
can tell it to ignore that feature and let it run until it hasn't got
enough energy to function. Not a good practice with rechargeable
batteries but acceptable for disposable batteries or super capacitors
- the chip only does what it was programmed to do.


and there's still the question how a phone that's off can be remotely
turned on by some magical signal that is received by a radio that's
off.

I don't know about Android and iPhone, but I'm
guessing that people think off means the screen
is black because few people actually turn them
off.

you guess wrong.

people are well aware of the difference between sleep versus fully off.

people don't turn off their phones because if they did, they would not
be able to receive calls, texts and push notifications. it would also
take a minute or two to boot if they wanted to use an app or call/text
someone.

It can be on and still act as if it is off. You have no way of
telling without some pretty sophisticated test equipment, and even
then, if I thought it may be monitored I'd find a way for it to hide
all activity until the threat passed.

they also might be listening to music, podcasts or internet radio with
the phone in their pocket, screen off.

The condition of the screen doesn't indicate what the phone is doing,
it is just there so the operator can tell what it wants you to know or
allow you to do.

Is your computer/device CLOCK wrong?

Yes, thanks for noticing. It is about noon and showing 4xx am... and
according to my desktop it is synchronized with nist.gov, I switched
to time.windows.com and it is more believable now.

Are you willing to disclose your credentials - do you have a LinkedIn
persona, for example, to give more credibility to your words? (in case
of doubt, I believe YOU - I do NOT believe 'nospam', who I know to be
untrustworthy).

Nope, I'm not on facebook either... LinkedIn is a joke, my sister was
using it and they were sending me spam so they managed to hack into
her Yahoo email account and then sent encouragements to everyone it
found there.

I was tinkering with electronics since I was seven, and it has been my
life's work (or at least the well-paying jobs, I was a motorcycle bum
and was a cook, railroad section crew member, handyman at a lodge in
NC, did some power line construction etc. to pay for the freedom being
a bum is all about.) I'm married retired "settled" but still design
electronic devices because it's satisfying. My wife is a scientist-
it is in her job title.

In article , default
wrote:

I know my Tracphone is off when I turn it
off because the charge will last for months and
it can't get calls. It could certainly have some
kind of beacon in it, but that seems very unlikely.
It only cost $10.

exactly.

if your phone was transmitting to some outside entity, the battery
would be dead within hours.

That's only true if the phone is fully functioning.

which it would have to be to spy on someone.

It could still
record audio with just a tiny smidgen of the power it takes to receive
and transmit. Compress the audio and transmit in a burst and you'd
never know it by the battery capacity.

nope. recording audio would require an app to be running, and that
means the phone is powered on and fully operational.

you would definitely notice a dead battery when you turned it on, or
tried to.

if it received a call or text while 'off', you'd definitely know
something unusual was going on.

You wouldn't know if a background program was running.

nonsense. of course someone would.

The uP is
always on. In a well designed secure system it is only supposed to be
checking the power button every few milliseconds.

the cpu isn't what's checking the power button.

But off and
hibernate are not the same thing.

that's the point.

The little controllers I like to
use have: sleep, nap, rest, and hibernate. They all save the battery
life, but there is no such thing as off. The different sleep states
are just there because some functions can be programmed to run while
the thing is sleeping...

those little controllers you supposedly like to use have nothing to do
with how cellphones work.

It only shuts down when the battery drops below a certain level,
that's an automatic function designed to prolong battery life, but I
can tell it to ignore that feature and let it run until it hasn't got
enough energy to function. Not a good practice with rechargeable
batteries but acceptable for disposable batteries or super capacitors
- the chip only does what it was programmed to do.

actually, you can't, since the battery has its own microcontroller,
which will shut down when the charge is too low.

and there's still the question how a phone that's off can be remotely
turned on by some magical signal that is received by a radio that's
off.

I don't know about Android and iPhone, but I'm
guessing that people think off means the screen
is black because few people actually turn them
off.

you guess wrong.

people are well aware of the difference between sleep versus fully off.

people don't turn off their phones because if they did, they would not
be able to receive calls, texts and push notifications. it would also
take a minute or two to boot if they wanted to use an app or call/text
someone.

It can be on and still act as if it is off. You have no way of
telling without some pretty sophisticated test equipment, and even
then, if I thought it may be monitored I'd find a way for it to hide
all activity until the threat passed.

nonsense. it's very easy to tell if a phone is truly off or only
pretending to be off.

they also might be listening to music, podcasts or internet radio with
the phone in their pocket, screen off.

The condition of the screen doesn't indicate what the phone is doing,
it is just there so the operator can tell what it wants you to know or
allow you to do.

you're still not getting it.

In article , Paul
wrote:

and there's still the question how a phone that's off can be remotely
turned on by some magical signal that is received by a radio that's
off.

RFID-like schemes transmit enough power to run
circuitry. You could do it that way.

no you couldn't. the range of rfid is *very* short and it requires the
device to be powered on

To do that city wide, would just take a powerful
transmitter, operating on some frequency other
than the cellphone frequency. The addressed
responding device, only has to operate its
transmitter and regular receiver, long enough
to ping back. That wouldn't run the battery
down too much, since the regular circuitry
goes back to sleep until the passive RFID
chunk receives another burst of energy
during the next ping.

no.

In article , default
wrote:


Not even off is off. The processor just sits there and periodically
wakes up and checks the condition of the push button to see if someone
is trying to turn it on.

nope. it's the power management chip checks that. the processor is far
too power hungry to be checking for a button press and only powers on
if the pmu tells it to.

From a design point of view, if the processor uses just a few micro
amps of current in the off state I'll let it decide when the button is
pressed. The battery capacity is on the order of thousands of
milliamp hours for the sake of argument say your cell phone is one
amp/hour, and you need 1 micro amp to monitor the condition of the
on-off switch it will take a million hours to discharge the battery.
Check my math, but that's about 114 years! The battery would self
discharge sooner, the cell phone would be obsolete sooner, and the
original owner would be pushing up daisies.

you're ignoring self-discharge and other factors.

Up that to 25 micro amps while in a surveillance mode (not
unreasonable) and the battery life is cut to ~5 years.

still wrong.

Now, if you want Video, pictures, gps, and second by second real time
surveillance it should be noticeable to most people.

that's the point.

But a lot has to
do with the way you do it and how current and complete the data you
are collecting has to be. A clever software designer will find ways
to maximize the battery life with various tricks in hardware and
software. If the person uses the phone or keeps it on for incoming
calls, you'd never notice the difference surveillance adds.

false.

If your phone is a 3G tablet computer, your battery is probably going
to be in the 3,000 milliamp/hour range. The hand held phones are in
the 500-1000 range last time I checked.

check again.

smartphone batteries are typically in the 3000 mah range, with tablets
in the 5000-10k mah range.

On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 09:53:15 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

"default" wrote

| I laughed at my old man when he told me that TV sets would one day be
| worn on the wrist just like the old comic strip "Dick Tracy" showed. I
| knew TVs' were huge heavy things that could never fit on a wrist, yet
| we have them today.

Yes, but we're still waiting for a lightweight
microscope that clips on to earbud wires, so
that we can see what's on TV.

That's So-o-o 21st century!

I'm figuring and optical nerve interface is next.

On 11/12/2018 17:08, default wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 16:44:08 +0000, "David B." "David
wrote:

On 11/12/2018 09:17, default wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 09:41:23 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Mayayana
wrote:

"David B." "David wrote
| Even if you/we THINK that a device is 'off' it COULD still be in
| communication with an outside entity.
|

I know my Tracphone is off when I turn it
off because the charge will last for months and
it can't get calls. It could certainly have some
kind of beacon in it, but that seems very unlikely.
It only cost $10.

exactly.

if your phone was transmitting to some outside entity, the battery
would be dead within hours.


That's only true if the phone is fully functioning. It could still
record audio with just a tiny smidgen of the power it takes to receive
and transmit. Compress the audio and transmit in a burst and you'd
never know it by the battery capacity.

you would definitely notice a dead battery when you turned it on, or
tried to.

if it received a call or text while 'off', you'd definitely know
something unusual was going on.

You wouldn't know if a background program was running. The uP is
always on. In a well designed secure system it is only supposed to be
checking the power button every few milliseconds. But off and
hibernate are not the same thing. The little controllers I like to
use have: sleep, nap, rest, and hibernate. They all save the battery
life, but there is no such thing as off. The different sleep states
are just there because some functions can be programmed to run while
the thing is sleeping...

It only shuts down when the battery drops below a certain level,
that's an automatic function designed to prolong battery life, but I
can tell it to ignore that feature and let it run until it hasn't got
enough energy to function. Not a good practice with rechargeable
batteries but acceptable for disposable batteries or super capacitors
- the chip only does what it was programmed to do.


and there's still the question how a phone that's off can be remotely
turned on by some magical signal that is received by a radio that's
off.

I don't know about Android and iPhone, but I'm
guessing that people think off means the screen
is black because few people actually turn them
off.

you guess wrong.

people are well aware of the difference between sleep versus fully off.

people don't turn off their phones because if they did, they would not
be able to receive calls, texts and push notifications. it would also
take a minute or two to boot if they wanted to use an app or call/text
someone.

It can be on and still act as if it is off. You have no way of
telling without some pretty sophisticated test equipment, and even
then, if I thought it may be monitored I'd find a way for it to hide
all activity until the threat passed.

they also might be listening to music, podcasts or internet radio with
the phone in their pocket, screen off.

The condition of the screen doesn't indicate what the phone is doing,
it is just there so the operator can tell what it wants you to know or
allow you to do.

Is your computer/device CLOCK wrong?

Yes, thanks for noticing. It is about noon and showing 4xx am... and
according to my desktop it is synchronized with nist.gov, I switched
to time.windows.com and it is more believable now.

YW :-)

Are you willing to disclose your credentials - do you have a LinkedIn
persona, for example, to give more credibility to your words? (in case
of doubt, I believe YOU - I do NOT believe 'nospam', who I know to be
untrustworthy).

Nope, I'm not on facebook either... LinkedIn is a joke, my sister was
using it and they were sending me spam so they managed to hack into
her Yahoo email account and then sent encouragements to everyone it
found there.

I LIKE Facebook! :-)

I do recall that at one time LinkedIn appeared to gain access to all of
the contacts I'd accumulated with Microsoft - and it bothered be. I
didn't/don't condone what was done and don't understand HOW it was done.
However, although I'm aware that some people can, and do, abuse the
system, ALL of my LinkedIn contacts are REAL people who I know in the
real world.

I was tinkering with electronics since I was seven, and it has been my
life's work (or at least the well-paying jobs, I was a motorcycle bum
and was a cook, railroad section crew member, handyman at a lodge in
NC, did some power line construction etc. to pay for the freedom being
a bum is all about.) I'm married retired "settled" but still design
electronic devices because it's satisfying. My wife is a scientist-
it is in her job title.

Thanks. You sound like an interesting chap! ;-)

--
Regards,
David B.

https://vxer.home.blog/2018/12/08/vxer-a-profile/