Win7 support:

In message ,
Robert in CA writes:


I still don't understand why the Rescue CD
isn't booting because you saw the screenshot
that it completed successfully with a DVD-R
and the 780 should accept it and run it.

Were progressing but its strange that it doesn't
engaged the CD drive at startup?

Robert

If you disconnect _all_ HDs, and power up with _only_ the optical drive
connected (with the Macrium CD in it), does it boot from that? Not that
you can do anything at that point, but it might be useful to know.

Paul: if he _can_ boot (from Macrium CD) as above, can he then plug in
the HD he wants to restore (7) to? I'm not sure if (non-E-)SATA is
supposed to be hot-pluggable. I know the "Macrium OS" can work with the
external USB drive being plugged/unplugged, and "sees" it as it
appears/disappears, as I've (unintentionally) done that. (Obviously you
wouldn't do any plugging when an operation is in progress.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

More people watch live theatre every year than Premier League football
matches. - Libby Purves, RT 2017/9/30-10/6

At your suggestion I tried this
but it came back with the F1 error
and didn't boot the Rescue CD.

Why it's not engaging I don't understand
since I used the same drive to create the
Rescue CD.

Robert

Robert in CA wrote:
I went back and checked the RAIDS:

https://postimg.cc/3dPSzFnp

https://postimg.cc/njPYBnW7

Robert


I'm not out of options here.

What I'm out of is *easy* options.

If I was in the room, I would have
switched to

Raid Autodetect with AHCI

https://www.tonymacx86.com/attachmen...fe-jpg.137580/

which selects RAID operation if RAID metadata is
detected, but uses AHCI if no RAIDs are seen.

There is one video on Youtube, where it gives the
impression that is what the IT guy is using.

*******

But, here's the thing. By doing that, we might get
the CD to boot and the restore to happen.

However, on the next boot, with the CD removed, the Windows 7
drive will complain about "STOP 0x7B Inaccessible Boot Device".

The Dell representative here is mostly wrong. In the
sense that Dell did a poor job of designing the BIOS,
and we shouldn't be blaming the users for not being
"top notch debugging wienies".

https://www.dell.com/community/Deskt...H/td-p/4492529

To fix that, one method is to modify the registry
setting for the driver.

The Win7, Win8, and Win10 methods all differ.
I think Win7 just needed Start adjusted. Win7
had two registry settings per driver. And
Windows 10 uses the "run it in Safe Mode one
time, followed by booting in Regular Mode" as
their fix. Thus, each OS needs a different fix.
I don't know if crashing Windows 10 three times
in a row and triggering recovery, is sufficient
to resolve a "driver change problem" or not.

I didn't really want to go down this road.

But at the rate we're going, I'm not seeing
a lot of good other choices.

This is the "change to AHCI" method for Windows 7.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...the-boot-drive

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Servic es\Msahci
Start DWORD 3 === change to 0
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Servic es\IastorV
Start DWORD 3 === change to 0

When you do it that way, it "arms" the OS for *either* AHCI
or RAID. If you make a fingers mistake (I've done that!)
while making this SATA port change, by setting both of
those, you're covered for either BIOS port mode. If the port
is AHCI, the OS starts with an AHCI driver. If the port is
RAID, the RAID driver is used (IASTORV is not the RST driver,
which is a separate entry).

Someone in the thread here, recommends rearming ATAPI as well.

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...841023a?page=2

Which makes the registry settings changes look like:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Servic es\Msahci
Start DWORD 3 === change to 0
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Servic es\IastorV
Start DWORD 3 === change to 0
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Servic es\Atapi
Start DWORD 3 === change to 0

This shows the Kasperski Rescue CD that I've used to
do "offline" edits to the Registry. Only the disk
needing the edits should be present, to avoid confusion.

https://i.postimg.cc/3NBpbVnN/kasper...sc-regedit.gif

So to do that, you'd boot the Kaspersky CD (in AHCI mode),
edit the Registry on C: , then reboot and the OS then
"re-considers" the drivers to be used, and uses an AHCI
driver.

Now, there's a remote chance that repairs are not
needed at all. But I'm not going to bet on that :-(

My purpose in showing the repair method, is to give
you some idea of what is involved.

And the web information on this is pretty shaky, especially
what settings to modify on Windows 8 (where two settings
per "driver type" may be required).

I don't really want you to have to edit each bootable
hard drive, but it's something to consider if this
"RAID ON" setting continues to cause problems.

Paul

In message , Paul
writes:
[]
I don't really want you to have to edit each bootable
hard drive, but it's something to consider if this
"RAID ON" setting continues to cause problems.

Paul

Surely the RAID setting is something in the BIOS/motherboard, not the
HD?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A dishwasher is rubbish at making treacle sponge. - Marjorie in UMRA, 2017-1-15

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Paul
writes:
[]
I don't really want you to have to edit each bootable
hard drive, but it's something to consider if this
"RAID ON" setting continues to cause problems.

Paul

Surely the RAID setting is something in the BIOS/motherboard, not the HD?

Yes, it's a BIOS setting.

*******

But it's not arranged the way RAID is arranged on
home-built systems with retail motherboards.

On retail motherboards, the settings are "fixed".
You choose one, it lasts for the entire session.

IDE (compatible)
AHCI
RAID

And with modern OSes, you might run that at the AHCI
setting. If WinXP was in your mix, you'd select IDE
just so installing WinXP would be easier. (Nobody
really wants to fight with some F6 attempt that
isn't working.)

But the Dell scheme is "more clever than the user", and
appears to switch modes on a whim.

You would need a RAID console and examining the metadata,
to see if any of your disks were "participating" in
causing problems for you.

With a copy of "dd.exe", you could likely selectively
erase ("knock out") the RAID metadata, but you have
to be very very careful to not damage the end of
the last partition. RAID metadata can be located in
the last cylinder of the disk (CHS cylinder). Using
a copy of HxD.exe, you could "have a look around" to see
what was there.

But to do the "looking around", you have to take
the drive to a "non-Intel" SATA port, so there is
no opportunity for the RAID driver to "prevent" the
user from accessing the last cylinder. When RAID is
running, the last cylinder is off-limits, which
means you can't damage the metadata while RAID
is running! Catch-22.

In other words, these are not casual tasks you do
on a computer. And especially when your backups may not
be 100% or whatever. You need a solid grounding
somewhere in the computer room, to be fiddling
with that stuff. (Have a restore method that actually
works.)

I've messed around with this stuff on disk drives where
I don't care what the outcome is, which is where I
learned about the location and so on. Having two
computers, one for disk cleaning, one for RAID
experiments, is "very convenient" for this work.
It's possible Robs 8500 has a port that might
be suitable for cleaning tasks (there might be
one additional storage chip besides that Intel
Southbridge we can't trust).

I think on my current machine, my JMicron chip
would suffice. And I have a couple add-on SATA
cards that can make shed of this RAID crap. But
in a survey today of Newegg, I'm not seeing a
lot of satisfied customers with the slew of
Marvell based SATA cards out there. And I
can't find an Asmedia based one with four
SATA ports on it. It almost feels like the
VIA era all over again, in terms of the quality
of the experience of using add-on cards.

My add-on cards use Asmedia chips, but they're
only dual port cards. And Rob only has one
slot for this as a potential solution. So I'd
need a quad port card that doesn't have "Marvell
driver trouble". Then we'd move all the SATA
cables over to the add-on card. And getting
the drivers in there ? I haven't a clue how
to do that yet.

It still requires that the system be tipped upright
first, before some better solution can be applied
for the longer term.

At the rate we're going, there might still be
some registry edits required after the backup
is restored. The Optiplex 780 just isn't cooperating
well enough right now, to even complete the first
step. It's hard to "leap ahead" and beat the
machine at its little game.

I thought I saw an IDE connector (I even counted the
pins to be sure and there are 40 pins), and an IDE DVD
drive from the 8200 could be moved over and
installed underneath the existing DVD drive.
There is *no* BIOS control for the sixth SATA
port which is connected to a SATA to IDE chip.
And I can find *no* references to the usage of
that IDE connector either - no one seems to have
tried using it. The IDE connector should only
support the one drive (the adapter chip is likely
hard wired to accept "Master" jumpering).

I have an IDE DVD drive here, my "floater", which
is used for various emergencies. Because you never
know when an IDE connector might be your last resort.

It's too bad these OSes didn't have better
driver handling methods. This registry editing
crap is for the birds... Who ever thought this up,
should be thrown out the second floor of the
Microsoft building :-(

And crashing Windows 10 three times, because you
don't have a "hot key" option at startup...
I hope there is room on the street for the
number of people we need to throw out of the
Microsoft building. They make this stuff *so* easy.

Paul

In message , Paul
writes:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Paul
writes:
[]
I don't really want you to have to edit each bootable
hard drive, but it's something to consider if this
"RAID ON" setting continues to cause problems.

Paul
Surely the RAID setting is something in the BIOS/motherboard, not
the HD?

Yes, it's a BIOS setting.

*******

But it's not arranged the way RAID is arranged on
home-built systems with retail motherboards.

On retail motherboards, the settings are "fixed".
You choose one, it lasts for the entire session.
[snip]
But the Dell scheme is "more clever than the user", and
appears to switch modes on a whim.

You would need a RAID console and examining the metadata,
to see if any of your disks were "participating" in
causing problems for you.

If there's even the possibility of it switching to any RAID
configuration all on its own, especially when the only SATA devices
present are a single HD and an optical drive (or even just the optical
drive - Rob says he "tried that" and it didn't work, but just that once
he snipped _all_ the previous post so I don't know if he was responding
to my suggestion or not), then it may _think_ it's more clever than the
user, but it isn't.
[]
I've messed around with this stuff on disk drives where
I don't care what the outcome is, which is where I
learned about the location and so on. Having two

Respect - for getting your head round it, and just dogged perseverance!
[]
I thought I saw an IDE connector (I even counted the
pins to be sure and there are 40 pins), and an IDE DVD
drive from the 8200 could be moved over and
installed underneath the existing DVD drive.
There is *no* BIOS control for the sixth SATA
port which is connected to a SATA to IDE chip.
And I can find *no* references to the usage of
that IDE connector either - no one seems to have
tried using it. The IDE connector should only
support the one drive (the adapter chip is likely
hard wired to accept "Master" jumpering).

I have an IDE DVD drive here, my "floater", which
is used for various emergencies. Because you never
know when an IDE connector might be your last resort.

I never really understood why "they" moved to SATA for optical drives;
(E)IDE was fine for them, and SATA gave no advantage - speed is limited
by the media.
[]
driver handling methods. This registry editing
crap is for the birds... Who ever thought this up,
Indeed ...
should be thrown out the second floor of the
Microsoft building :-(
.... and indeed!

And crashing Windows 10 three times, because you
don't have a "hot key" option at startup...
I hope there is room on the street for the
number of people we need to throw out of the
Microsoft building. They make this stuff *so* easy.

With knobs on for my blind friends who have even more difficulty than
the rest of us with changing UIs (and, so far, non-speaking BIOSes) -
though that applies to more or less anybody who finds it difficult when
things change without the reasons being widely or adequately explained.

Paul
John
--
J. P. Gilliver

I'm not understanding exactly what
you want me to do?

btw I have a Kapersky CD (dated 11-20-18)
also a Win7 Pro CD, a Memtest CD and
Bitdefender CD however none of these will
work if the CD player isn't responding to
the Rescue CD which can resolve all my
problems.


Remember, all this started when I simply
unchecked the Win7 HD to get the Win10 HD
to boot. Then all hell broke loose.


Robert

On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 01:35:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert in CA
wrote:

(please quote the part of the message you are replying to)



I'm not understanding exactly what
you want me to do?

btw I have a Kapersky CD (dated 11-20-18)
also a Win7 Pro CD, a Memtest CD and
Bitdefender CD however none of these will
work if the CD player isn't responding to
the Rescue CD which can resolve all my
problems.

Burn the Kaspersky ISO image to a USB using rufus (dd method)
and boot from that.
The registry editor is on the menu.
[]'s


Remember, all this started when I simply
unchecked the Win7 HD to get the Win10 HD
to boot. Then all hell broke loose.


Robert
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

Shadow is suggesting I create Kapersky
on a flash key and use that to boot?

I would need a link to download it ( I
checked my downloads and I don't seem
to have it) but I don't see how that
would help resolve my CD boot problem?

Isn't Kapersky for Anti-virus's?


Robert

I would also need a link to download Rufus
and instructions e.g. command line on how
to use create an ISO.

I still don't understand how Kapersky will
help with the CD boot problem?

Thoughts/suggestions?

Robert

Shadow is suggesting I create Kapersky
on a flash key and use that to boot?

I would need a link to download it ( I
checked my downloads and I don't seem
to have it) but I don't see how that
would help resolve my CD boot problem?

Isn't Kapersky for Anti-virus's?


Robert

On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 10:44:34 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
Robert in CA wrote:
I went back and checked the RAIDS:

https://postimg.cc/3dPSzFnp

https://postimg.cc/njPYBnW7

Robert


I'm not out of options here.

What I'm out of is *easy* options.

If I was in the room, I would have
switched to

Raid Autodetect with AHCI

https://www.tonymacx86.com/attachmen...fe-jpg.137580/

which selects RAID operation if RAID metadata is
detected, but uses AHCI if no RAIDs are seen.

There is one video on Youtube, where it gives the
impression that is what the IT guy is using.

*******

But, here's the thing. By doing that, we might get
the CD to boot and the restore to happen.

However, on the next boot, with the CD removed, the Windows 7
drive will complain about "STOP 0x7B Inaccessible Boot Device".

The Dell representative here is mostly wrong. In the
sense that Dell did a poor job of designing the BIOS,
and we shouldn't be blaming the users for not being
"top notch debugging wienies".

https://www.dell.com/community/Deskt...H/td-p/4492529

To fix that, one method is to modify the registry
setting for the driver.

The Win7, Win8, and Win10 methods all differ.
I think Win7 just needed Start adjusted. Win7
had two registry settings per driver. And
Windows 10 uses the "run it in Safe Mode one
time, followed by booting in Regular Mode" as
their fix. Thus, each OS needs a different fix.
I don't know if crashing Windows 10 three times
in a row and triggering recovery, is sufficient
to resolve a "driver change problem" or not.

I didn't really want to go down this road.

But at the rate we're going, I'm not seeing
a lot of good other choices.

This is the "change to AHCI" method for Windows 7.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...the-boot-drive

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Servic es\Msahci
Start DWORD 3 === change to 0
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Servic es\IastorV
Start DWORD 3 === change to 0

When you do it that way, it "arms" the OS for *either* AHCI
or RAID. If you make a fingers mistake (I've done that!)
while making this SATA port change, by setting both of
those, you're covered for either BIOS port mode. If the port
is AHCI, the OS starts with an AHCI driver. If the port is
RAID, the RAID driver is used (IASTORV is not the RST driver,
which is a separate entry).

Someone in the thread here, recommends rearming ATAPI as well.

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...841023a?page=2

Which makes the registry settings changes look like:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Servic es\Msahci
Start DWORD 3 === change to 0
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Servic es\IastorV
Start DWORD 3 === change to 0
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Servic es\Atapi
Start DWORD 3 === change to 0

This shows the Kasperski Rescue CD that I've used to
do "offline" edits to the Registry. Only the disk
needing the edits should be present, to avoid confusion.

https://i.postimg.cc/3NBpbVnN/kasper...sc-regedit.gif

So to do that, you'd boot the Kaspersky CD (in AHCI mode),
edit the Registry on C: , then reboot and the OS then
"re-considers" the drivers to be used, and uses an AHCI
driver.

Now, there's a remote chance that repairs are not
needed at all. But I'm not going to bet on that :-(

My purpose in sh...





How do you want me to proceed?

Robert

I'm not out of options here.

What I'm out of is *easy* options.

If I was in the room, I would have
switched to

Raid Autodetect with AHCI

https://www.tonymacx86.com/attachmen...fe-jpg.137580/

which selects RAID operation if RAID metadata is
detected, but uses AHCI if no RAIDs are seen.



How do you want me to proceed?

Robert

Robert in CA wrote:
Shadow is suggesting I create Kapersky
on a flash key and use that to boot?

I would need a link to download it ( I
checked my downloads and I don't seem
to have it) but I don't see how that
would help resolve my CD boot problem?

Isn't Kapersky for Anti-virus's?


Robert

Kaspersky Rescue Disc has a Registry Editor.

It allows Registry Editing with a convenient interface,
for cases where an OS won't boot.

Here is a picture of a booted Kaspersky rescue disc session,
showing the registry editor open and preparing to make
edits.

https://i.postimg.cc/3NBpbVnN/kasper...sc-regedit.gif

*******

We could do all the booting on the machine with
USB keys. That's a possibility.

But that's unnecessary work, if the optical drive
can be convinced to work.

Kaspersky claims here, for their latest materials, that
using a dd.exe (disk dump) method works. This implies the
latest media is a hybrid (supports both legacy MBR and
the newer UEFI methods).

https://support.kaspersky.com/14226#block1

For older Kaspersky media (the downloadable ISO file),
there is this tool. This takes an ISO and makes a bootable
USB key.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110816...k10/Rescue2usb

https://web.archive.org/web/20110816...rescue2usb.exe

24 Aug 2010 13:24:57 388872 rescue2usb.exe

*******

Macrium Reflect Free, you could make USB flash key media
for it too. That should be a built-in feature in the
installed copy of Macrium.

You could make that, as a test, using the Windows 10
you were working on previously when you made a CD.

*******

I suppose at the moment, making the Macrium key makes
more sense, depending on what you can get going
on that box.

Paul

I suppose at the moment, making the Macrium key makes
more sense, depending on what you can get going
on that box.

Paul


I have your instructions for backups, restore and cloning
on Macrium but how do I create a key? Also does it require
a brand new flash key for this like it requires a brand new
DVD-R for the Rescue CD? If so, we'll have to wait a month
before I get paid for me to purchase one.

Robert