XP OEM - Interesting conversation with MS employee

Bruce has "character" and is 100% honest!

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows XP - Shell/User
Microsoft Newsgroups

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"T. Waters" wrote:
|
| Bruce your explanation of OEM support of Windows XP was very enlightening
| You got to the actual point of limiting the OEM to the first machine. So I
| found it odd that you summed up that brilliant and rational explanation with
| a simplistic statement as to the morals of a person who moves OEM XP to
| another computer. They are not violating the MS intent of freeing the OEM
| from supporting an OS on a computer the OEM did not build! Are you devoutly
| religious, by any chance?



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In article ,
says...
On Wed, 11 May 2005 00:28:46 GMT, Leythos
wrote:


I also said that it's up to each person to interpret what MS means until
the actually call MS and ask for clarification - which I don't expect
many to admit to doing.

That's where you went wrong. MS cannot LATER clarify,
further restrict a license.

There is nothing a call to MS can tell you that isn't
already in the license as shipped.

I'm not suggesting it would be fair to upgrade the entire
system a piece and a time and think an OEM license is still
valid for it, BUT on the other hand neither the seller nor
buyer of the license can further redefine it later.

I'm not taking sides, it seemed it would be good, legal or not, to get
an official MS stated position that could be references as FROM A MS
Legal department.

I actually don't care one way or the other if anyone does anything,
really, I don't care, I quit caring about 5 months ago. I also don't
make any attempt to sway anyone into thinking one way or another. I have
only mentioned what I've read on the MS site, seen in posted (web) MS
documents, and how I handle it myself.

Since I don't care how you handle it, or Kurt or Alias, and since I'm
only presenting that MS has documents that clarify their position on the
OEM site, there is no argument to be entered into - you can do what you
want.

I only sent the email to my partner contact for the benefit of myself
and those that ask - I never suggested that it would be a legal binding
or that it would change any agreements already in place. Sheesh, I just
wanted an official MS clarification on it so that I could have the
information.

Again, I don't care what anyone does, what their orientation is, what
they like (beer/wine coolers), now many times they install the same XP
key, what parts they change - why can't people see that. All I said is
that MS has documents that explain their position to OEM's. I don't care
if you want or don't want to read them, or even if you do / don't agree
with them - I'm not asking you to. I just made the statement that they
exist, that was it.

--
--

remove 999 in order to email me

In article ,
says...
In the grand scheme of software licensing, it's up to you to determine
what is right/wrong and what you feel you can get away with. Some of us
are hard-line and purchase a OEM copy considering that additional MS
documents call the Motherboard the defining component,

That's not "hard-line", that's ignorance.
If the license agreement that came with the product
specifies the motherboard, then it is (a) defining
component. It is improper and pointless to make any mention
at all of "additional MS documents". If those documents had
told you that you are bound to reformat your hard drive
every 7 days, would you do that too?

So, if I were a registered OEM, having agreed to the OEM agreements, you
are saying that I should ignore the documents on the OEM site that I've
already read concerning the definitions of terms before I sign my OEM
agreement?

Dude, you missed my point, I never suggested that anyone was bound by
the clarification, only informed by it, not bound by it - come down off
the soap-box.

--
--

remove 999 in order to email me

Leythos wrote:
In article ,
says...
And different MS employees tell a different story about at what point
does upgrading components constitute a new and different computer.

Leythos you really should just give it up! The OP actually talked
to a MS employee and couldn't get a straight answer out of him. And
why is that? Because MS rather keep the FUD surrounding when
upgrading a computer turns it into another computer by defining it
in the EULA. MS KNOWS if pressed their POST EULA FUD is in no way
enforceable.

What part of "my personal" did you miss - Hell, I even stated your and
Alias's positions of being able to do anything you want.

I've not made a statement as to one or the other being fact in this
thread.

You still talk about the motherboard fantasy as it it is part of the
EULA.

IT IS NOT A PART OF THE EULA! It is only binding on you in your
delusions!

NOT ONE END USER EVER AGREED TO IT!

MS'S MOTHERBOARD NONSENSE HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY
AGREEMENT!

--
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Kurt
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"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
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kony wrote:
On Tue, 10 May 2005 23:42:05 GMT, Leythos
wrote:



Actually, you can call MS and ask for Licensing information, not the
activation drones, MS proper and ask for a email/document explaining
licensing.

No, you quite specifically cannot do this.
It is not binding to add terms and not legal to try to
enfore them. Of all possible avenues, MS cannot supply you
with "Further" details about a license that weren't already
part of that license. If someone simply can't find their
EULA then they might be SOL.


In the grand scheme of software licensing, it's up to you to
determine what is right/wrong and what you feel you can get away
with. Some of us are hard-line and purchase a OEM copy considering
that additional MS documents call the Motherboard the defining
component,

That's not "hard-line", that's ignorance.
If the license agreement that came with the product
specifies the motherboard, then it is (a) defining
component. It is improper and pointless to make any mention
at all of "additional MS documents". If those documents had
told you that you are bound to reformat your hard drive
every 7 days, would you do that too?


while others look
at the EULA and say that the power cord could be the single defining
component. It's all in what you are comfortable with until you ASK MS
legal what they mean.

No reasonable person will conclude the power cord is a
defining component, UNLESS the license was purchased with
that cord, if the EULA allows it.

It is NOT "what you are comfortable with until you ask MS
legal".

MS legal cannot add, subtract, or redefine a EULA after the
sale.

Amen!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

Leythos wrote:
In article ,
says...
Those of us that ain't MS partners and have absolutely no conflict of
interest when it comes to having business dealings with MS have never
agree, and most have never even seen the password protected web site
of FUD about the mobo is the computer and bill gates is god!

And I stated that he (actually anyone) could do what they want on a
personal level. I never stated that anyone has to follow anything.

You are remembering and making more out of it this time than I said -
I DID NOT TAKE SIDES OR A STANCE ON IT THIS TIME. I EVEN SUGGESTED IT
WAS UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL.

Your personal delusions about the motherboard are off-topic.

MS's System Builder site is NOT for END USERS. NO ONE EVER AGREED TO
ANYTHING SAID THERE. IT IS TOTALLY NONSENSE, AND IS NOT WORTH
MENTIONING, EXCEPT IN YOUR WET DREAMS ABOUT BILLY G!



--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

Leythos wrote:
In article ,
says...
In the grand scheme of software licensing, it's up to you to
determine what is right/wrong and what you feel you can get away
with. Some of us are hard-line and purchase a OEM copy considering
that additional MS documents call the Motherboard the defining
component,

That's not "hard-line", that's ignorance.
If the license agreement that came with the product
specifies the motherboard, then it is (a) defining
component. It is improper and pointless to make any mention
at all of "additional MS documents". If those documents had
told you that you are bound to reformat your hard drive
every 7 days, would you do that too?

So, if I were a registered OEM, having agreed to the OEM agreements,
you are saying that I should ignore the documents on the OEM site
that I've already read concerning the definitions of terms before I
sign my OEM agreement?

Dude, you missed my point, I never suggested that anyone was bound by
the clarification, only informed by it, not bound by it - come down
off the soap-box.

If you aren't bound by it, then you really isn't worth the toilet paper
I used to wipe my ass with today!

And neither my used toilet paper or you non-binding web page has any
place in this thread!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

In article ,
says...
Leythos wrote:
In article ,
says...
In the grand scheme of software licensing, it's up to you to
determine what is right/wrong and what you feel you can get away
with. Some of us are hard-line and purchase a OEM copy considering
that additional MS documents call the Motherboard the defining
component,

That's not "hard-line", that's ignorance.
If the license agreement that came with the product
specifies the motherboard, then it is (a) defining
component. It is improper and pointless to make any mention
at all of "additional MS documents". If those documents had
told you that you are bound to reformat your hard drive
every 7 days, would you do that too?

So, if I were a registered OEM, having agreed to the OEM agreements,
you are saying that I should ignore the documents on the OEM site
that I've already read concerning the definitions of terms before I
sign my OEM agreement?

Dude, you missed my point, I never suggested that anyone was bound by
the clarification, only informed by it, not bound by it - come down
off the soap-box.

If you aren't bound by it, then you really isn't worth the toilet paper
I used to wipe my ass with today!

And neither my used toilet paper or you non-binding web page has any
place in this thread!

It had as much place as a statement about a conversation with a
contractor that does PA without any real knowledge of licensing rules or
documents for the product they are activating.

I never claimed it was worth anything to anyone, it's just as good an
information source as you provide.

--
--

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T. Waters wrote:



Bruce your explanation of OEM support of Windows XP was very enlightening
You got to the actual point of limiting the OEM to the first machine.


Thank you.


So I
found it odd that you summed up that brilliant and rational explanation with
a simplistic statement as to the morals of a person who moves OEM XP to
another computer.


What's "simplistic" about it? In this situation, the purchaser of the
OEM license agrees to abide by the terms of the EULA, and then
subsequently reneges on his agreement and installs the OEM license
elsewhere. This indicates quite clearly that this person's given word,
or signature on a contract, for that matter, cannot be trusted. If
he'll break the agreement to abide by the EULA, he cannot be trusted not
to break any other agreements.



Are you devoutly
religious, by any chance?




No. Why do you feel the need to be so gratuitously insulting? Every
religion I know of is the very anti-thesis of integrity - they're all
founded on self-delusion.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:
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You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once. - RAH

Carey Frisch [MVP] wrote:
Bruce has "character" and is 100% honest!

This is like having OJ say that Tony Blake is "100% not guilty" too!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

Bruce Chambers wrote:
Woody wrote:


from what Mike Brannigan , an MS employee and frequent poster , has been
saying of late is that it's up to the oem to determine when the original
machine is no longer the original machine . definately a major retreat
from
earlier interpretations of the ms oem eula .


No, that's no "retreat." That's what the official policy, as stated
by Microsoft employees, has always been.


If I buy a keyboard with my OEM WinXP Pro x64, as one purveyor has been
offering, can I change anything on the original computer on which I
installed the OS as long as I use the same keyboard?

Even stranger is the fact that the keyboard is not even included in the
hash function used to indicate a change in OS installation.

Am I missing something here?

--
Virg Wall

Sorry, Bruce, for sounding insulting. In my mind, you sounded like some
orthodox practioners of religion I know.
I guess it is just a question of priorities. For me, it is infinitely more
important that people wash their hands after using the restroom than that
they abide by the OEM rules in the MS EULA., and I mean this seriously.

Bruce Chambers wrote:
T. Waters wrote:



Bruce your explanation of OEM support of Windows XP was very
enlightening You got to the actual point of limiting the OEM to the
first machine.


Thank you.


So I
found it odd that you summed up that brilliant and rational
explanation with a simplistic statement as to the morals of a person
who moves OEM XP to another computer.


What's "simplistic" about it? In this situation, the purchaser of the
OEM license agrees to abide by the terms of the EULA, and then
subsequently reneges on his agreement and installs the OEM license
elsewhere. This indicates quite clearly that this person's given
word, or signature on a contract, for that matter, cannot be trusted.
If he'll break the agreement to abide by the EULA, he cannot be
trusted not to break any other agreements.



Are you devoutly
religious, by any chance?




No. Why do you feel the need to be so gratuitously insulting? Every
religion I know of is the very anti-thesis of integrity - they're all
founded on self-delusion.

VWWall wrote:
Bruce Chambers wrote:
Woody wrote:


from what Mike Brannigan , an MS employee and frequent poster , has
been saying of late is that it's up to the oem to determine when
the original machine is no longer the original machine . definately
a major retreat from
earlier interpretations of the ms oem eula .


No, that's no "retreat." That's what the official policy, as
stated by Microsoft employees, has always been.


If I buy a keyboard with my OEM WinXP Pro x64, as one purveyor has
been offering, can I change anything on the original computer on
which I installed the OS as long as I use the same keyboard?

Even stranger is the fact that the keyboard is not even included in
the hash function used to indicate a change in OS installation.

Am I missing something here?

Virg, the keyboard has nothing to do with it.
The consensus within this group leans towards the power cord as the
irreducible essence of a "computer." (;-)

In article ,
says...
If I buy a keyboard with my OEM WinXP Pro x64, as one purveyor has been
offering, can I change anything on the original computer on which I
installed the OS as long as I use the same keyboard?

The vendor I purchase OEM software through sells all MS OEM products and
only requires a hardware purchase, a MS Mouse is about $14, so it's
cheap enough to not really count.

--
--

remove 999 in order to email me

VWWall wrote:
Bruce Chambers wrote:
Woody wrote:


from what Mike Brannigan , an MS employee and frequent poster , has
been saying of late is that it's up to the oem to determine when
the original machine is no longer the original machine . definately
a major retreat from
earlier interpretations of the ms oem eula .


No, that's no "retreat." That's what the official policy, as
stated by Microsoft employees, has always been.


If I buy a keyboard with my OEM WinXP Pro x64, as one purveyor has
been offering, can I change anything on the original computer on
which I installed the OS as long as I use the same keyboard?

Even stranger is the fact that the keyboard is not even included in
the hash function used to indicate a change in OS installation.

Am I missing something here?

Yeah, your are expecting sh*t about software licensing to be logical,
and it is as logical as software companies complaing about software
piracy when the piracy rate is lower now than it was before almost every
home had a computer, in 1994

Actually since MS introduced copy-protection in 2000 with MSO2KSP1, the
piracy rate stopped its steady downward trend.

The Business Software Alliance Global Software Piracy Rate:

1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003*
49 46 43 40 38 36 37 40 39 36

* - 1st year using IDC methodology.

See the piracy rate had been declining since 1994 as more and more PCs
were sold to people for Home Use. And since MS first introduce PA the
piracy rate has been fluctuating up & down. For calculating the piracy
rate in 2003, the BSA changed its methodology, so that drop is a result
of the change. Mike Newton, campaigns relations manager for the BSA, at
the time of the release of that year's report said, "Right now we feel
that piracy rates are on the up."

PA isn't about PIRACY and never has been. It is about behavior
modification and getting you to accept the bogus rules of soul-less
corporate software copyright owners in the privacy of your home!

While the EULA is a perfectly acceptable commercial use license, it has
NEVER been proven to also be a legally enforceable private use licence.
And so all these rules, policies and copy protection is about anything
except FUDing the individual consumer into believeing that the corporate
elite words are the law, without actually having to prove it!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"