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Case fan replacement OT



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 17th 19, 06:51 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
swalker
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Posts: 67
Default Case fan replacement OT

I need to replace a 120mm case fan on my mid-size tower. Looking at
Amazon the prices are all over the place and I assume there might be
some differences, other than noise and air moved, between the top and
bottom price but I have no idea what those might be.

Opinion anyone?

Color doesn't matter.

Anybody like a particular brand?
Ads
  #2  
Old January 17th 19, 06:56 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Sjouke Burry[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 275
Default Case fan replacement OT

On 17-1-2019 18:51, swalker wrote:
I need to replace a 120mm case fan on my mid-size tower. Looking at
Amazon the prices are all over the place and I assume there might be
some differences, other than noise and air moved, between the top and
bottom price but I have no idea what those might be.

Opinion anyone?

Color doesn't matter.

Anybody like a particular brand?

search for a whisper fan
  #3  
Old January 17th 19, 07:07 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Rene Lamontagne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,549
Default Case fan replacement OT

On 01/17/2019 11:51 AM, swalker wrote:
I need to replace a 120mm case fan on my mid-size tower. Looking at
Amazon the prices are all over the place and I assume there might be
some differences, other than noise and air moved, between the top and
bottom price but I have no idea what those might be.

Opinion anyone?

Color doesn't matter.

Anybody like a particular brand?


Yes, Noctua, high quality bearings, well designed quite airflow systems,
shock mounts and many other good features.
A little pricier than some but well worth it, The only replacements I use.

Rene

  #4  
Old January 17th 19, 07:16 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Case fan replacement OT

On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 12:07:52 -0600, Rene Lamontagne
wrote:

On 01/17/2019 11:51 AM, swalker wrote:
I need to replace a 120mm case fan on my mid-size tower. Looking at
Amazon the prices are all over the place and I assume there might be
some differences, other than noise and air moved, between the top and
bottom price but I have no idea what those might be.

Opinion anyone?

Color doesn't matter.

Anybody like a particular brand?


Yes, Noctua, high quality bearings, well designed quite airflow systems,
shock mounts and many other good features.
A little pricier than some but well worth it, The only replacements I use.


I, too, use Noctua.

--

Char Jackson
  #5  
Old January 17th 19, 09:40 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
swalker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 67
Default Case fan replacement OT

On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 11:51:18 -0600, swalker wrote:

I need to replace a 120mm case fan on my mid-size tower. Looking at
Amazon the prices are all over the place and I assume there might be
some differences, other than noise and air moved, between the top and
bottom price but I have no idea what those might be.

Opinion anyone?

Color doesn't matter.

Anybody like a particular brand?


Don't know if it matters but the fan will be installed at the rear of
the case and near the bottom, just behind the power supply and pushes
air OUT.
  #6  
Old January 17th 19, 10:10 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Rene Lamontagne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,549
Default Case fan replacement OT

On 01/17/2019 2:40 PM, swalker wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 11:51:18 -0600, swalker wrote:

I need to replace a 120mm case fan on my mid-size tower. Looking at
Amazon the prices are all over the place and I assume there might be
some differences, other than noise and air moved, between the top and
bottom price but I have no idea what those might be.

Opinion anyone?

Color doesn't matter.

Anybody like a particular brand?


Don't know if it matters but the fan will be installed at the rear of
the case and near the bottom, just behind the power supply and pushes
air OUT.


No matter, they can be mounted either way, suck in or blow out.

Rene
  #7  
Old January 17th 19, 10:23 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul in Houston TX[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 999
Default Case fan replacement OT

swalker wrote:
I need to replace a 120mm case fan on my mid-size tower. Looking at
Amazon the prices are all over the place and I assume there might be
some differences, other than noise and air moved, between the top and
bottom price but I have no idea what those might be.

Opinion anyone?

Color doesn't matter.

Anybody like a particular brand?


1st: Noctua SSO2 (self-stabilising oil-pressure bearing).
2nd: dual ball bearings.
3rd: sleeve bearings.

  #8  
Old January 17th 19, 10:45 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Case fan replacement OT

swalker wrote:
I need to replace a 120mm case fan on my mid-size tower. Looking at
Amazon the prices are all over the place and I assume there might be
some differences, other than noise and air moved, between the top and
bottom price but I have no idea what those might be.

Opinion anyone?

Color doesn't matter.

Anybody like a particular brand?


The 4 pin fans can be placed on a 3 pin motherboard header, but then
the PWM feature does not work. Thus, a typical purchase plan is to select
the "max speed" of the fan as the "actual operating speed". If you have
nothing but four pin headers on the motherboard, then you can turn
down these four pin ones.

"Noctua NF-S12A PWM, 4-Pin Premium Cooling Fan (120mm)"
https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Produc...82E16835608038

$25 ($CDN)

107.5 m3/h (standard) we want cfm! 1 m3/hour = 0.589 cfm
Gives 63.3 CFM
17.8 dba (inaudible)

"Noctua NF-F12 PWM, 4-Pin Premium Quiet Fan (120mm)"
https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Produc...82E16835608026

$23 ($CDN)

93.40 m3/h max = 55CFM

22.4 dBa (inaudible above CPU fan)

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/18...00800_RPM.html

$16 USD
74.3 m3/h = 44CFM (they lowered the RPMs)
8.6 dba (inaudible)

An old favorite of mine, for comparison, no longer available, NO idiotic LEDs

Vantec Stealth 120mm x 25mm ($12 CDN years ago, *never* failed)

12V @ 80mA
53 CFM
1500 RPM
28 dBa (can't hear it over the Nidec, I'm happy with these nonetheless)

Cabinet cooling equation...

CFM = 3.16 * Watts / Delta_T_degrees_F

Let's do the test machine, under average conditions, just
as a joke. This would be with an old version of Battlefield running.
Use your Kill-O-Watt meter to get the power number.

3.16 * 120 watts / 10F = 38CFM

Now, Furmark and Prime95 on the same machine. Because... new video card.
Nobody really wants to run this much air on a regular basis. You can
accept a higher delta_t if you want.

3.16 * 360 watts / 10F = 114CFM (could use two fans in parallel)

The Cuisinart of fans - a CircuitTest 38mm deep fan. Draws 1 amp
or 12 times the current that the Stealth draws.
Use a Molex power for these, not a motherboard fan header.

https://www.circuittest.com/cfa12120...120mm-fan.html

Dimensions: 120 x 120 x 38mm (4.7 x 4.7 x 1.5")
Rating: 12VDC @ 1 Amp
Bearing: Ball
Speed: 2400 RPM
Noise: 46 dBA === relatively speaking, "lose an eardrum"
Max Air: 121 CFM

Fans come in four ranges: Low, Medium, High, Ultra

The CircuitTest would be an Ultra, because nobody can
sit next to one. You have to use a voltage reducer on those,
and *still* lose an eardrum. I removed mine and put another
in its place. The CircuitTest fan is nice, but such a setup
is really only suited for a server room.

Low fans are mostly useless, and more for show.
A Medium is a good tradeoff between noise and cooling.

Maybe the NF-S12A will be OK.

Ball bearing fans are 3dB louder than sleeve bearings.
Sleeve bearing fans can wear out in as little as *one day* :-)
It depends on who makes one. I found one where all the oil
drained out onto the chassis floor, which is why the fan
died in one day.

Various exotic motors are possible, such as FDB (fluid dynamic),
something perhaps that Panaflo was first at. Panaflo was
bought out and someone else has the trade name now as far
as I know.

My computer store has nothing but crap in it now, so I'd have
to go online to get a Noctua. I brought home a random 120mm
one day from that computer store, and it had blinding blue LEDs
on it, recessed to make it hard to remove safely.

Fans like the CircuitTest come from my "electronics" store,
where the average DC fan goes for $25 to $35 each. The
CircuitTest was an "impulse buy", because it was made
of metal and looked like "battleship" material.

Paul
  #9  
Old January 17th 19, 11:12 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Case fan replacement OT

Rene Lamontagne wrote:
On 01/17/2019 2:40 PM, swalker wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 11:51:18 -0600, swalker wrote:

I need to replace a 120mm case fan on my mid-size tower. Looking at
Amazon the prices are all over the place and I assume there might be
some differences, other than noise and air moved, between the top and
bottom price but I have no idea what those might be.

Opinion anyone?

Color doesn't matter.

Anybody like a particular brand?


Don't know if it matters but the fan will be installed at the rear of
the case and near the bottom, just behind the power supply and pushes
air OUT.


No matter, they can be mounted either way, suck in or blow out.

Rene


I love it when a plan comes together.

The general airflow should be planned, and not just
seven fans placed at random angles. (I know, because
I tried that once :-) ) So how this works is, you hold
up a piece of Kleenex next to a fan that's supposed to be
an intake. If the air moves backwards through the fan
and blows *outwards*, you're a dumbass :-) When you make
complicated setups, that's what happens. One or more
fans can have reversed airflow, proving the fan is
a mistake.

Make the air flow *through* the case, in as obvious
a way as possible. You can suck or blow if you want,
depending on your "dust theories". All cases have dust,
but some more than others. Dust precipitates when
the air velocity drops, such as in "stagnant" corners
of the casing. If you place fans to "stir" the air, then
the fan isn't actually pointed at a hot item.

It's not possible to satisfy all constraints at the same
time, which leaves lots of room for "artistry".

I can give some rules such as *no dust filters*. Only
use those dust filter things, if you like doing
maintenance all the time, as they can clog up every
three months. If you add arrestance to a case like
that, you end up bumping up the fan CFMs to compensate.
Which is louder.

Paul
  #10  
Old January 19th 19, 11:49 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
swalker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 67
Default Case fan replacement OT

On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 11:51:18 -0600, swalker wrote:

I need to replace a 120mm case fan on my mid-size tower. Looking at
Amazon the prices are all over the place and I assume there might be
some differences, other than noise and air moved, between the top and
bottom price but I have no idea what those might be.

Opinion anyone?

Color doesn't matter.

Anybody like a particular brand?


Had the fan replaced by a local shop for $25 including a Noctua fan.
In the process found that another fan is in need of replacing and I
will do that one myself. The fan currently has a 3 wire connector so
that is what I will use. MB has only 3 pins where the connection is
currently made.

I use EVGA Precision XOC to monitor and control the fans that are
wired so I can. The one I am going to replace is one I would like to
monitor/control but because of the 3 wires I am guessing I will not be
able to.

Does that sound correct that only 4 wire fans can be monitored using
software?

Thanks again for the advice/help.

Jim

Jim
  #11  
Old January 20th 19, 01:37 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Rene Lamontagne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,549
Default Case fan replacement OT

On 01/19/2019 4:49 PM, swalker wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 11:51:18 -0600, swalker wrote:

I need to replace a 120mm case fan on my mid-size tower. Looking at
Amazon the prices are all over the place and I assume there might be
some differences, other than noise and air moved, between the top and
bottom price but I have no idea what those might be.

Opinion anyone?

Color doesn't matter.

Anybody like a particular brand?


Had the fan replaced by a local shop for $25 including a Noctua fan.
In the process found that another fan is in need of replacing and I
will do that one myself. The fan currently has a 3 wire connector so
that is what I will use. MB has only 3 pins where the connection is
currently made.

I use EVGA Precision XOC to monitor and control the fans that are
wired so I can. The one I am going to replace is one I would like to
monitor/control but because of the 3 wires I am guessing I will not be
able to.

Does that sound correct that only 4 wire fans can be monitored using
software?

Thanks again for the advice/help.

Jim

Jim


4 wire PWM fans can be monitored and speed controlled and must be
plugged into a 4 pin header.
3 wire fans can only be monitored, except they can be manually
controlled with a small DC control in series with the fan which varies
the voltage between approx 7 and 12 volts, I did not like them because
you had to open the case to set the speed, consequently there are still
2 or 3 new ones sitting in my parts drawer.
I have read that some motherboards can vary the speed of 3 wire fans but
have never run into one.

Rene


  #12  
Old January 20th 19, 01:40 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Case fan replacement OT

swalker wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 11:51:18 -0600, swalker wrote:

I need to replace a 120mm case fan on my mid-size tower. Looking at
Amazon the prices are all over the place and I assume there might be
some differences, other than noise and air moved, between the top and
bottom price but I have no idea what those might be.

Opinion anyone?

Color doesn't matter.

Anybody like a particular brand?


Had the fan replaced by a local shop for $25 including a Noctua fan.
In the process found that another fan is in need of replacing and I
will do that one myself. The fan currently has a 3 wire connector so
that is what I will use. MB has only 3 pins where the connection is
currently made.

I use EVGA Precision XOC to monitor and control the fans that are
wired so I can. The one I am going to replace is one I would like to
monitor/control but because of the 3 wires I am guessing I will not be
able to.

Does that sound correct that only 4 wire fans can be monitored using
software?

Thanks again for the advice/help.

Jim


Four wire fan Three wire Two wire

+12V Red +12V +12V
GND Black GND GND
RPM (Yellow perhaps) RPM
PWM

adjust by PWM adjust by +12V adjust by +12V

On the fan, PWM is an input and RPM is an output.

You can place a four pin fan on a three pin header.
The "PWM" hangs off the end and doesn't touch any pin.

The PWM wire has a pullup resistor, so when it does not touch
anything, a solid logic 1 is on the wire. This also corresponds
to "max speed" on the fan itself.

To change the speed of the fan, the PWM signal is a square wave
where the duty cycle affects the fan speed.

If the PWM line was jammed to ground, that corresponds to a
"zero percent duty-cycle signal". But rather than the fan
stop spinning, the fan spins at "min-speed". When the signal
is logic 1 (+5V) all the time, that's 100% duty cycle and the
fan spins at "max-speed" in response. A 25KHz square wave with
a 50% duty cycle, would give a fan speed between the two
values. The only reason for selecting a high frequency
signal, is in the hope any side-effects don't alias into
the audible range. I don't have a scope here, and have not
verified the frequency used. But it's probably something at
least that high.

*******

The RPM signal has a couple definitions. On computers, it's
"2PPR" or two pulses per revolution, and this
can be derived from the motor windings and driver transistors.
In other words, they selected a "naturally occurring" signal
for that purpose.

In other industries, they prefer the "locked rotor" indication,
where the logic signal on the yellow wire is only activated when
the fan stops rotating. The fan part number might have "LR"
in the number, if locked rotor is used.

*******

When a fan has the small four pin connector, it's intended for
PWM control. You should not voltage modulate the +12V on a PWM
fan, because there is a MOSFET in the series path to the motor
windings. And the MOSFET needs enough voltage to operate properly
and not be "half-saturated" or something.

Intel wrote a spec for PWM fans, which can be used as a
reference document on the topic.

When a fan has three wires and no PWM (no internal MOSFET),
you can adjust the +12V input to at least as low as 7V or so.
A few fans continue to rotate down to around +5V or so.
Older motherboards had their own control scheme on the
motherboard, to deliver a desired voltage level. Since it
might cost a dollar per channel to do that, companies like Asus
only put one channel on the motherboard with that voltage control.

OEM HP machines, some of the motherboards in those had three
controlled fans. A sort of "deluxe version".

If you have a 2 wire fan, it's just +12V and GND and no
RPM at all.

if it was my system, I'd try to select a Noctua that has
the right airflow when the +12V rail is at +12V. And not
bother with adjusting it. Some of those fans are pretty
quiet at full speed. I have a CPU cooler made by Noctua
and the rear case fan is louder than the CPU fan. While
the CPU header is a four pin, I don't bother turning
down the fan and just leave it running full speed.
Which might only be 1200 to 1400 RPM or so.

I don't really want to be a brand promoter, but if
I visit my computer store now, there's really nothing
there that's worth buying. There aren't many fans where
you'd guess they will have a long life, or be reasonably
quiet. There's plenty of LED junk if that's what you
like.

The electronics store has Nidec and Delta fans, and
those are good workhorse fans with high air output
(and noisy). Those have ball bearings and good service
lives. Perfectly good for server room equipment. The
"quiet fan business" is an entirely different matter.
Good fan brands come and go (haven't seen a Panaflo
or a Vantec Stealth in a while).

Paul
 




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