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FIXMBR redux



 
 
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  #16  
Old June 2nd 04, 01:41 AM
Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

The problem occurs when you try to boot the slave, is that correct? Even if
you change the slave to the master, the former slave drive has a cloned
image from a different hard drive of an OS installation that was installed
while the slave drive was not installed. I'm not sure if even having it
installed would make a difference but the error you mention is typical of
trying to image to a different computer than the one on which XP was
originally installed.

I can only deduce from that and what you have described and the fact the
slave hard drive was not connected to this computer when the OS was
installed that it is being seen as a different computer.

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"William B. Lurie" wrote in message
...
Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote:

William, I did not ask the question I meant to ask. I meant to ask, were
both drives connected to the system when you first installed XP on the
primary drive.


I am sure that, way back when I installed XP on the primary drive,
I had no slave drive. However, I don't understand the significance.
When both drives are online, I only 'run' the master. The slave
doesn't even have an OS on it.

If not, then XP setup, never saw the second drive. If you
added the drive after you installed XP and then imaged the first drive to
the second drive, that might account for the HAL error as it sees the new
drive, though an image of the first drive as though it were a separate
computer.

I must clarify quickly an error in what version of D-I is for what.
I quote their Installation Instructions:

"Drive Image for Windows 2000, Windows XP. Drive Image 7.0 does not run
under Windows 9x, Windows ME, or Windows NT 4.0 Workstation. If you have
one of these operating systems, use the Drive Image CD that is marked
for your operating system".

I really think I should de-activate RC frommy Master drive, and make
sure it is bootable (suicide would be an alternative), and then
make a fresh Drive Image of it, on my Slave Drive, and then try to Recover
a clone from that fresh drive image. But I need specific
instructions on how to do so, if you agree.
William B. Lurie



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  #17  
Old June 2nd 04, 01:41 AM
William B. Lurie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote:
The problem occurs when you try to boot the slave, is that correct? Even if
you change the slave to the master, the former slave drive has a cloned
image from a different hard drive of an OS installation that was installed
while the slave drive was not installed. I'm not sure if even having it
installed would make a difference but the error you mention is typical of
trying to image to a different computer than the one on which XP was
originally installed.

I can only deduce from that and what you have described and the fact the
slave hard drive was not connected to this computer when the OS was
installed that it is being seen as a different computer.

No, that is not correct, Michael.
I have a hard drive.
I make a drive image of it.
That image happens to be on a different hard drive,
but it could just as well have been on a set of CDs.
I want to make an operating system out of that
image. You've stated that the error I mentioned is
typical of trying to image to a different computer than the
one on which XP was originally installed.

You are implying that no error would occur if I put
the OS back on the 'computer' where it was. That does
not make sense to me, because Drive Images and Ghosts
are used daily in cases where a drive fails altogether
and the Ghost or Dive Image is used to recreate the
system on a totally new drive. I don't think the
instructions imply any restrictions on the physical
medium to which the Image is restored.

I think that Sharon or somebody gave us a different
line of reasoning, that D-I can't handle this complicated
an MBR, one with a choice of OS or RC. That's why I asked
you to help me restore my original master OS to the
condition where, in boot-up, it acts as though there is
no such thing as a Recovery Console. That's the way it was
when you helped me install the RC.

--
William B. Lurie
  #18  
Old June 2nd 04, 02:41 AM
Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

William, I said this is all I could conclude from this and I did raise the
possibility of this issue at the very outset.

That said, you're assertion is not quite correct.. Images are used all the
time to recover from system crashes and similar situations without issue but
that is to the same physical drive. However, when you image to a new hard
drive, one that the OS didn't see when it was first installed, because it
was not connected to the system at the time, you are changing the parameters
of the setup. If you understand XP's activation and anti-piracy scheme, it
makes perfect sense. Usually, they can get around this by doing a repair
install. I also told you at the outset, I wasn't sure this could be done
for precisely that reason.

It makes perfect sense if the new hard drive is not included in the original
hash created during System setup. If a user changes motherboards and
nothing, else, they usually have to do a repair install as well.

I'm not certain if this is the issue here but it fits all the criteria and
it's all I can conclude from the information.

My suggestion is to take this to the hardware board as they may have
experience with this and may come up with something else as the reason.
But, they need to be aware of the fact, the cloned drive was not connected
to the system when XP was first installed. They may say, it makes no
difference it should work. On the other hand, they may see the same thing
I've seen and given the error messages come to the same conclusion. This is
all that I can tell you as I've never tried to do what you are doing and I
haven't seen this exact situation elsewhere.

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"William B. Lurie" wrote in message
...
Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote:
The problem occurs when you try to boot the slave, is that correct? Even
if you change the slave to the master, the former slave drive has a
cloned image from a different hard drive of an OS installation that was
installed while the slave drive was not installed. I'm not sure if even
having it installed would make a difference but the error you mention is
typical of trying to image to a different computer than the one on which
XP was originally installed.

I can only deduce from that and what you have described and the fact the
slave hard drive was not connected to this computer when the OS was
installed that it is being seen as a different computer.

No, that is not correct, Michael.
I have a hard drive.
I make a drive image of it.
That image happens to be on a different hard drive,
but it could just as well have been on a set of CDs.
I want to make an operating system out of that
image. You've stated that the error I mentioned is
typical of trying to image to a different computer than the
one on which XP was originally installed.

You are implying that no error would occur if I put
the OS back on the 'computer' where it was. That does
not make sense to me, because Drive Images and Ghosts
are used daily in cases where a drive fails altogether
and the Ghost or Dive Image is used to recreate the
system on a totally new drive. I don't think the
instructions imply any restrictions on the physical
medium to which the Image is restored.

I think that Sharon or somebody gave us a different
line of reasoning, that D-I can't handle this complicated
an MBR, one with a choice of OS or RC. That's why I asked
you to help me restore my original master OS to the
condition where, in boot-up, it acts as though there is
no such thing as a Recovery Console. That's the way it was
when you helped me install the RC.

--
William B. Lurie



  #19  
Old June 2nd 04, 03:41 AM
William B. Lurie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

Michael, just as a point of information, I have an old XP Home Edition
Restore CD which came with a PC whose hard drive died after 3 months
in service. E-machines replaced the CD, under warranty, and I used the
Ghost image on the Restore CD to rebuild the OS back on a virgin drive
as it was originally on a different piece of hardware....
Some time later, I used the same CD to recreate the OS on two
other hard drives. Maybe I'm naive, but a new, formatted drive is
a fit place to restore an OS from a Drive Image of PowerQuest's. True,
the Ghost history I'm relating was not PQ's Drive Image, but to me
the principle is the same; it is all apples, not apples and oranges.

But is there no way to allow my present, functional system to boot
cleanly and uniquely to its OS, to delete and obviate the option to
go to Recovery Console?
WBL

Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote:

William, I said this is all I could conclude from this and I did raise the
possibility of this issue at the very outset.

That said, you're assertion is not quite correct.. Images are used all the
time to recover from system crashes and similar situations without issue but
that is to the same physical drive. However, when you image to a new hard
drive, one that the OS didn't see when it was first installed, because it
was not connected to the system at the time, you are changing the parameters
of the setup. If you understand XP's activation and anti-piracy scheme, it
makes perfect sense. Usually, they can get around this by doing a repair
install. I also told you at the outset, I wasn't sure this could be done
for precisely that reason.

It makes perfect sense if the new hard drive is not included in the original
hash created during System setup. If a user changes motherboards and
nothing, else, they usually have to do a repair install as well.

I'm not certain if this is the issue here but it fits all the criteria and
it's all I can conclude from the information.

My suggestion is to take this to the hardware board as they may have
experience with this and may come up with something else as the reason.
But, they need to be aware of the fact, the cloned drive was not connected
to the system when XP was first installed. They may say, it makes no
difference it should work. On the other hand, they may see the same thing
I've seen and given the error messages come to the same conclusion. This is
all that I can tell you as I've never tried to do what you are doing and I
haven't seen this exact situation elsewhere.



--
William B. Lurie
  #20  
Old June 2nd 04, 03:41 AM
Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

Reply inline:

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"William B. Lurie" wrote in message
...
Michael, just as a point of information, I have an old XP Home Edition
Restore CD which came with a PC whose hard drive died after 3 months
in service. E-machines replaced the CD, under warranty, and I used the
Ghost image on the Restore CD to rebuild the OS back on a virgin drive
as it was originally on a different piece of hardware....
Some time later, I used the same CD to recreate the OS on two
other hard drives. Maybe I'm naive, but a new, formatted drive is
a fit place to restore an OS from a Drive Image of PowerQuest's. True,
the Ghost history I'm relating was not PQ's Drive Image, but to me
the principle is the same; it is all apples, not apples and oranges.


Not applicable. First, it's a restore CD, not a retail version and second,
most of those are tied to the system. You can, within reason change
hardware, though changing motherboards on such a system might now work, at
least not with the restore CD, you likely would be able to clone images of
the restore CD to other hard drives on the same system, there's no hash, no
hardware abstraction layer issue.... Apples and Oranges.

But is there no way to allow my present, functional system to boot
cleanly and uniquely to its OS, to delete and obviate the option to
go to Recovery Console?
WBL


I have no idea about the RC or even if it figures in. Try a repair install
and see if it gets the drive bootable though you might have to activate
which should be no problem.
NOTE, while a repair install should leave your data files intact, if
something goes wrong during the repair install, you may be forced to start
over and do a clean install of XP. If you don't have your data backed up,
you would lose your data should that eventuality occur.

Assuming your system is set to boot from the CD-ROM drive and you have an
actual XP CD as opposed to a recovery CD, boot with the XP
CD in the drive and perform a repair install as outlined below. If the
system isn't set to boot from the CD or you are not sure, you need to enter
the system's BIOS. When you boot the system, the first screen usually has
instructions that if you wish to enter set press a specific key, when you
see that, do so. Then you will have to navigate to the boot sequence, if
the CD-ROM drive is not first line, set it first in the boot sequence. Save
your settings and exit with the XP CD in the drive. The system will reboot.

When the system boots, a few screens into the process you may see a message
instructing you
to hit any key in order to boot from the CD along with a countdown. When
you see this be sure to
hit a key on the keyboard, if you miss this instruction and the system fails
to boot from the CD, it's too
late, you'll need to reboot and try again.

Once you have pressed a key, setup should begin. You will see a reference
asking if you need to load special drivers and another notice that if you
wish to begin the ASR (Automatic Recovery Console) depress F2. Just let
setup run past all of that. It will continue to load files and drivers.

Then it will bring you to a screen. Eventually, you will come to a screen
with the option to (1) setup Windows or (2) Repair Windows Installation
using the Recovery console. ***The selection you want at this screen is
"Setup Windows,"
NOT "Repair Windows Installation.

The first option, to setup Windows is the one you want and requires you to
press enter. When asked, press F8 to accept the end user agreement. Setup
will then search for previous versions of Windows. Upon finding your
version, it will ask if you wish to Repair your current installation or
install fresh. Press R, that will run a repair installation. From there
on, follow the screens.

If you only have a recovery CD, your options are quite limited. You can
either purchase a retail version of XP will allow you to perform the above
among other tools and options it has or you can run your system recovery
routine with the Recovery CD which will likely wipe your drive, deleting all
files but will restore your setup to factory fresh condition.



Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote:

William, I said this is all I could conclude from this and I did raise
the possibility of this issue at the very outset.

That said, you're assertion is not quite correct.. Images are used all
the time to recover from system crashes and similar situations without
issue but that is to the same physical drive. However, when you image to
a new hard drive, one that the OS didn't see when it was first installed,
because it was not connected to the system at the time, you are changing
the parameters of the setup. If you understand XP's activation and
anti-piracy scheme, it makes perfect sense. Usually, they can get around
this by doing a repair install. I also told you at the outset, I wasn't
sure this could be done for precisely that reason.

It makes perfect sense if the new hard drive is not included in the
original hash created during System setup. If a user changes
motherboards and nothing, else, they usually have to do a repair install
as well.

I'm not certain if this is the issue here but it fits all the criteria
and it's all I can conclude from the information.

My suggestion is to take this to the hardware board as they may have
experience with this and may come up with something else as the reason.
But, they need to be aware of the fact, the cloned drive was not
connected to the system when XP was first installed. They may say, it
makes no difference it should work. On the other hand, they may see the
same thing I've seen and given the error messages come to the same
conclusion. This is all that I can tell you as I've never tried to do
what you are doing and I haven't seen this exact situation elsewhere.



--
William B. Lurie



  #21  
Old June 2nd 04, 04:41 AM
William B. Lurie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote:
Reply inline:

The XP Pro CD I have is not a Restore CD....it is a genuine
Install CD. I know, because I installed from it. However,
"backing up all data" is the reason for all of these
machinations. I have a few dozen 'folders' full of files and
data which are easy as pie (or pi) to copy to a CD, but
that's just the tip of the iceberg. What would be utterly
impossible to 'back up' is all of the software that's
contained in all that is in "Program Files" and the Registry.

I still say that, reading its literature, Drive Image was
designed to do exactly what I'm trying to do. But it doesn't.
And Power Quest, now Symantec, is almost impossible to get
questions to, much less get answers from. I'm living with
an Error Message in Norton System Works because, to repair
it, just to fully uninstall it, would take reading through
all the reference documents they had me link to...and print
out....about 25 pages worth.......if I were to do it. The cure
is worse than the disease. Sounds a little like trying to get
rid of my Recovery Console.

I will experiment with the cloned hard drive, and see if the
procedures you have kindly detailed will get it 'repaired'.
I doubt that I would ever accept the risks and uncertainties
of doing it on my sacred system. The cloned drive may or may
not be amenable to responding to that procedure. We shall see.
And thank you for your inputs.

--
William B. Lurie
  #22  
Old June 2nd 04, 04:41 AM
Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

You said it was supplied by Emachines, even it wasn't a restore CD, even if
it was identical to a retail CD, if you didn't have to activate this on your
system when you installed or installed and formatted, it's different from
the retail CD. That would make it an OEM and likely locked to that system
in some way.

I can only go back to what I told you in the first place a long time ago,
I've never tried this scenario. It's one thing to image a drive to say,
backup a partition, or have two hard drives installed on the system, install
the OS to one and then image it to the other and quite another issue to
install XP, create an image and then place that image on a hard drive the
setup never saw in the first place.

I'm not saying it can't be done or hasn't been done but from everything
you've told me, it appears XP's anti-piracy scheme is the issue. There may
be others who have done this, if they have, then I'm wrong and it may have
something to do with a peculiarity with your setup, an issue with the image
in the first place or something else of which I have no idea.

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"William B. Lurie" wrote in message
...
Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote:
Reply inline:

The XP Pro CD I have is not a Restore CD....it is a genuine
Install CD. I know, because I installed from it. However,
"backing up all data" is the reason for all of these
machinations. I have a few dozen 'folders' full of files and
data which are easy as pie (or pi) to copy to a CD, but
that's just the tip of the iceberg. What would be utterly
impossible to 'back up' is all of the software that's
contained in all that is in "Program Files" and the Registry.

I still say that, reading its literature, Drive Image was
designed to do exactly what I'm trying to do. But it doesn't.
And Power Quest, now Symantec, is almost impossible to get
questions to, much less get answers from. I'm living with
an Error Message in Norton System Works because, to repair
it, just to fully uninstall it, would take reading through
all the reference documents they had me link to...and print
out....about 25 pages worth.......if I were to do it. The cure
is worse than the disease. Sounds a little like trying to get
rid of my Recovery Console.

I will experiment with the cloned hard drive, and see if the
procedures you have kindly detailed will get it 'repaired'.
I doubt that I would ever accept the risks and uncertainties
of doing it on my sacred system. The cloned drive may or may
not be amenable to responding to that procedure. We shall see.
And thank you for your inputs.

--
William B. Lurie



  #23  
Old June 2nd 04, 04:41 AM
*Vanguard*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) said in
:
I need to understand what you've stated as I have Drive Image 2002 as
well.

If Drive Image 2002 doesn't include the contents of the MBR, would
that not make image restoration useless as it would not produce a
bootable drive? Since I've used Drive Image 2002 through several
betas wherein I deleted my system partition and restored the image
created with Drive Image and had a bootable system upon completion of
the restore process, I'd like to know how that is possible. In fact,
as a part of the DI 2002 restore routine, you must first delete the
partition.


As an example, at one time I used to use BootMagic to multiboot between
Windows 98 and Windows NT4 (later replaced with a fresh install of
Windows 2000). When I restored the disk image saved onto CD-R on a new
hard drive, I had problems. Don't remember if it was because the MBR
had not yet been written or if because it was the standard bootstrap
code. In any case, the replacement MBR bootstrap code from BootMagic
was not there. However, as part of using BootMagic, it lets you create
a recovery floppy where it stores the old MBR (which wasn't really
useful). What you do to recover is use FDISK to make the partition
active that contains the install of BootMagic (which requires
installation on a non-NTFS partition) where you can run it to again
replace the standard MBR bootstrap program with BootMagic's. If I had
use mbrutil to save the MBR along with my image fileset then I could've
booted using a DOS-bootable floppy and ran mbrutil from there to restore
a saved copy of the MBR that previously contained the BootMagic
bootstrap program. Because BootMagic installs only in a non-NTFS
partition (mine was FAT32 for the Windows 98 partition), and because I
could use FDISK to make that partition active to run BootMagic from
there to rewrite the MBR bootstrap code, or by using BootMagic's rescue
diskette, I was able to get the MBR back the way it was. I don't
remember if I had to run FDISK /MBR at that time but suspect that I did
to start the boot process (to get the FAT32 partition booted).

FDISK /MBR or FIXMBR usually work okay or well enough to get you started
along the path to recovery, but it can cause problems. If you are
infected with a boot sector virus, it may move the partition tables
within the MBR area. FDISK /MBR and FIXMBR only know how to overwrite
the 460-byte bootstrap code area of the MBR and where to expect the
partition table to begin, so if the partition table got moved then the
standard bootstrap code won't know where to find the partition table.
So using FDISK /MBR or FIXMBR is not always a fix for what ails ya.

But there is also a danger in backing up the MBR. This backup probably
includes all of sector 0 instead of just the first 460 bytes for the
bootstrap code. That means the backup includes a copy of your partition
table at that time. If you later resize, move, or otherwise change your
partitions, the copy saved in your backup copy of the MBR won't be
correct anymore. So you restoring the MBR will overwrite the partition
table which will probably result in none of your partitions being
accessible anymore. The mbrutil from Powerquest appears to save all of
sector 0 in an MBR backup (and obviously all of sector 0 in a track 0
backup). The only option I see is to let it restore ALL of sector 0 (or
track 0). So you really don't want to just do an MBR backup when you
create disk (er, partition) images but you want to maintain a separate
MBR backup floppy where you save the MBR anytime you have something
usurp the bootstrap code OR change your partition table.

I think the MBRtool lets you write only to the bootstrap code area of
the MBR but I also think it only writes the standard bootstrap code and
not the bootstrap code from your backup copy of the MBR. Admittedly I
am not familiar with MBRtool (got it but haven't used it yet) so one of
its many options or features described at
http://www.diydatarecovery.nl/~tkuur...ool_manual.htm might
actually let you restore just the first 460 bytes of the MBR in order to
restore just the original bootstrap program. I just use Powerquest's
mbrutil anytime something overwrites the bootstrap code (like a disk
overlay manager, Goback, multiboot managers, security products, etc.) or
when the partition table changes (resize, move, delete, add, or
whatever). Since you can filename for the backup output, you can save
multiple copies and give a descriptive name to clue you in as to what
was different about the MBR and why you backed it up, or put it into its
own folder and add a descriptive .txt file.


  #24  
Old June 2nd 04, 04:41 AM
*Vanguard*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

William B. Lurie said in :
Sharon F wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 06:50:13 -0400, William B. Lurie wrote:


I think this leads back to my discussions with, and
advice from, Michael Solomon a while back.......

Since 'solving' the problems of creating a drive image
of my master hard drive with Drive Image 7, and creating
a clone of that drive with its PowerQuest Recovery
Environment software, I've been living is a fool's
paradise. I discovered this when I went to create the
monthly Drive Image yesterday, and create the clone on
a newly purchased hard drive.

I've been living with my Master drive booting to a
choice between normal start-up and Recovery Console,
a minor annoyance because after a ten-second countdown
it goes to normal boot, automatically. No problem there.

I believe that the main part of the problem is now that
the new exact clone does not have Master Boot Record
correct, because the 'Normal Boot' path leads to the
choices of Safe Mode or Normal etcetera, and no choice
gets to anything other than a repeat of that set of
choices. If I select Recovery Console, I get a short
DOS-type message saying that file 'xxxxx.dll' is missing,
and to reload it somehow from somewhere. I suspect that
more than one '.dll' file will be in the list of what it
needs. I tried selecting Recovery Console, hoping that I
could somehow do a FIXMBR there, but I can't get to RC.

Incidentally, in running Drive Image, I've repeated the
whole image-and-recreate process, with and without the
'keep the MBR' option, with no apparent difference in
results. I've tried to solve the problem without going to
you experts, but what I've considered all logical paths
haven't solved it.

William B. Lurie



Something about your saga keeps nagging at the back of my mind but I
can't put my finger on it.

When you create an exact image to second drive, the target purpose
is to be able to yank a non-functioning drive and drop the imaged
drive into place. (A restorable image is something different. It's
usually compressed and can be restored to any drive that is large
enough to hold the uncompressed image.)

Have you tried booting with only the imaged drive placed as master
on the main controller? At this point, those recovery console fix it
thingies should be able to help with rebuilding the bootconfig and
boot record. Or, if PM will restore it, give that a try.

Or are you trying to maintain two bootable drives and trying to
switch between two separate XP installations? If this is what you're
doing and XP's boot manager is failing to handle this, you might
want to try a third party boot manager.

I no longer use Drive Image, stopped with Drive Image 6. The newer
version may offer alternatives that I'm not aware of - meaning that
the above may not apply.

For a drive to boot, there are some requirements. There has to be an
active partition, for one. On that partition the boot records and
files have to be available to get past the initial boot strap and
let it move on to the actual loading of the operating system.

I don't know the answer to your problem, William. Just typing some
thoughts "out loud" that may or may not help. It sounds like you're
so close to getting this to work but a step is missing. Just can't
put my finger on which step and since I don't use Drive Image can't
give specific advice.


Thank you, Sharon. You speak the truth, of course, and I'll simplify
your thinking by making it clear that when I've spoken about what
I do with the 'cloned' hard drive, I mean that I physically shut
the system down, and pull out the Master, and insert the Clone
exactly in its place, electrically and physically. There should
be no conflict there. BTW, D-I 7 is, I believe, the only version
for XP. The D-I 2002/6 version is expressly not for XP.

Yes, the drive onto which I Recover the Image is Active and Primary.
It is brand new and not even partitioned.

As an aside, and not pertinent here, I have another completely
separate drive with WIN ME on it, and I am able, through a
simple manipulation of the BIOS, to boot to HDD-0 (these XP
alternates) or to HDD-1 (the ME), should I care to go that route.

I think the next step will be for you, or Michael, to instruct me how
to deactivate the RC altogether, after which I will first test my
Master Drive (and pray that it will still work), and then repeat
the D-I Image creation followed by trying to create the clone from it.
W B L


Haven't had time to read everything (and still don't) but wanted to
inject a couple of points.

One,

A disk image is a set of files used to restore to the same or other
partition or drive. The disk image fileset is not itself usable to boot
from the partition where that fileset was stored. A *cloned* drive is
completely different. DriveImage will do both. You can have it create
a fileset containing a logical description of the physical definition of
a partition, or you can have it clone a drive (via "Copy Drives"
function).

A cloned disk can be swapped in for the source drive to look and behave
just like the source drive as long as you connect it the same way (as
you mention by moving it to the same port in the same physical scan
order). To a degree, a cloned drive is something like a one-shot
mirrored drive: the target disk is an exact copy of the source disk but
only at the time the target disk got cloned. A disk image fileset
cannot be used by itself to bring up a system but instead requires
running the imaging program to restore that image.

Two,

As far as the boot menu asking whether to select Windows XP or Recovery
Console, that has nothing to do with the boot sequence for starting the
operating system. The BIOS loads the bootstrap program from the first
460 bytes of sector 0 (MBR) of the first physically scanned hard disk
which then runs and loads the boot sector of the primary partition
marked as active which then starts the load of the operating system
which then reads (in the case of NT-based Windows) boot.ini to see which
parallel installed operating system to load, Windows XP or the Recovery
Console. The OS has already loaded its initial loader program and is
running and the boot process (from BIOS and hardware) is over.

You could uninstall the Recovery Console if you don't want to get the
menu to choose. Or you could shorten the menu timer to expire quicker.
Or you could edit boot.ini to remove the entry defining where to find
the Recovery Console interface (but that won't eliminate the Recovery
Console's files).

--
__________________________________________________ __________
*** Post replies to newsgroup. Share with others.
*** Email domain = ".com" *AND* append "=NEWS=" to Subject.
__________________________________________________ __________


  #25  
Old June 2nd 04, 04:41 AM
Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

That's a different situation than what I was describing as BootMagic lives
on it's own small partition and, as I recall, rewrites the MBR on the OS
boot partition and I can see where this could create an issue with Drive
Image. Even if that's not exactly the case, I've run into issues of
restoring images when I've also used Boot Magic and ended up having to use
either the Drive Image emergency disks or the BootMagic emergency disks in
order to set things right again.

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"*Vanguard*"
wrote in message ...
Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) said in
:
I need to understand what you've stated as I have Drive Image 2002 as
well.

If Drive Image 2002 doesn't include the contents of the MBR, would
that not make image restoration useless as it would not produce a
bootable drive? Since I've used Drive Image 2002 through several
betas wherein I deleted my system partition and restored the image
created with Drive Image and had a bootable system upon completion of
the restore process, I'd like to know how that is possible. In fact,
as a part of the DI 2002 restore routine, you must first delete the
partition.


As an example, at one time I used to use BootMagic to multiboot between
Windows 98 and Windows NT4 (later replaced with a fresh install of
Windows 2000). When I restored the disk image saved onto CD-R on a new
hard drive, I had problems. Don't remember if it was because the MBR
had not yet been written or if because it was the standard bootstrap
code. In any case, the replacement MBR bootstrap code from BootMagic
was not there. However, as part of using BootMagic, it lets you create
a recovery floppy where it stores the old MBR (which wasn't really
useful). What you do to recover is use FDISK to make the partition
active that contains the install of BootMagic (which requires
installation on a non-NTFS partition) where you can run it to again
replace the standard MBR bootstrap program with BootMagic's. If I had
use mbrutil to save the MBR along with my image fileset then I could've
booted using a DOS-bootable floppy and ran mbrutil from there to restore
a saved copy of the MBR that previously contained the BootMagic
bootstrap program. Because BootMagic installs only in a non-NTFS
partition (mine was FAT32 for the Windows 98 partition), and because I
could use FDISK to make that partition active to run BootMagic from
there to rewrite the MBR bootstrap code, or by using BootMagic's rescue
diskette, I was able to get the MBR back the way it was. I don't
remember if I had to run FDISK /MBR at that time but suspect that I did
to start the boot process (to get the FAT32 partition booted).

FDISK /MBR or FIXMBR usually work okay or well enough to get you started
along the path to recovery, but it can cause problems. If you are
infected with a boot sector virus, it may move the partition tables
within the MBR area. FDISK /MBR and FIXMBR only know how to overwrite
the 460-byte bootstrap code area of the MBR and where to expect the
partition table to begin, so if the partition table got moved then the
standard bootstrap code won't know where to find the partition table.
So using FDISK /MBR or FIXMBR is not always a fix for what ails ya.

But there is also a danger in backing up the MBR. This backup probably
includes all of sector 0 instead of just the first 460 bytes for the
bootstrap code. That means the backup includes a copy of your partition
table at that time. If you later resize, move, or otherwise change your
partitions, the copy saved in your backup copy of the MBR won't be
correct anymore. So you restoring the MBR will overwrite the partition
table which will probably result in none of your partitions being
accessible anymore. The mbrutil from Powerquest appears to save all of
sector 0 in an MBR backup (and obviously all of sector 0 in a track 0
backup). The only option I see is to let it restore ALL of sector 0 (or
track 0). So you really don't want to just do an MBR backup when you
create disk (er, partition) images but you want to maintain a separate
MBR backup floppy where you save the MBR anytime you have something
usurp the bootstrap code OR change your partition table.

I think the MBRtool lets you write only to the bootstrap code area of
the MBR but I also think it only writes the standard bootstrap code and
not the bootstrap code from your backup copy of the MBR. Admittedly I
am not familiar with MBRtool (got it but haven't used it yet) so one of
its many options or features described at
http://www.diydatarecovery.nl/~tkuur...ool_manual.htm might
actually let you restore just the first 460 bytes of the MBR in order to
restore just the original bootstrap program. I just use Powerquest's
mbrutil anytime something overwrites the bootstrap code (like a disk
overlay manager, Goback, multiboot managers, security products, etc.) or
when the partition table changes (resize, move, delete, add, or
whatever). Since you can filename for the backup output, you can save
multiple copies and give a descriptive name to clue you in as to what
was different about the MBR and why you backed it up, or put it into its
own folder and add a descriptive .txt file.




  #26  
Old June 2nd 04, 04:41 AM
Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

If you create an image using Drive Image and you wipe the current boot
partition of your hard drive and restore that previously created image, that
drive will boot even if you've deleted the previous partition so the image
should, as far as I can tell, be usable to clone a drive. Drive Image
creates a sector by sector copy of the drive it is imaging and should be an
exact duplicate of the imaged drive, hence a clone.

The error message that Bill is receiving is consistent with XP's anti-piracy
scheme though it may not be the issue at all. Nonetheless, my understanding
of Drive Image is apparently different from yours.

If you delete the partition on the drive you originally imaged, the MBR is
gone, hence, if that drive is bootable upon restoring the image you created
of that drive, it must be restoring the MBR when it restores the image.

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"*Vanguard*"
wrote in message ...
William B. Lurie said in :
Sharon F wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 06:50:13 -0400, William B. Lurie wrote:


I think this leads back to my discussions with, and
advice from, Michael Solomon a while back.......

Since 'solving' the problems of creating a drive image
of my master hard drive with Drive Image 7, and creating
a clone of that drive with its PowerQuest Recovery
Environment software, I've been living is a fool's
paradise. I discovered this when I went to create the
monthly Drive Image yesterday, and create the clone on
a newly purchased hard drive.

I've been living with my Master drive booting to a
choice between normal start-up and Recovery Console,
a minor annoyance because after a ten-second countdown
it goes to normal boot, automatically. No problem there.

I believe that the main part of the problem is now that
the new exact clone does not have Master Boot Record
correct, because the 'Normal Boot' path leads to the
choices of Safe Mode or Normal etcetera, and no choice
gets to anything other than a repeat of that set of
choices. If I select Recovery Console, I get a short
DOS-type message saying that file 'xxxxx.dll' is missing,
and to reload it somehow from somewhere. I suspect that
more than one '.dll' file will be in the list of what it
needs. I tried selecting Recovery Console, hoping that I
could somehow do a FIXMBR there, but I can't get to RC.

Incidentally, in running Drive Image, I've repeated the
whole image-and-recreate process, with and without the
'keep the MBR' option, with no apparent difference in
results. I've tried to solve the problem without going to
you experts, but what I've considered all logical paths
haven't solved it.

William B. Lurie


Something about your saga keeps nagging at the back of my mind but I
can't put my finger on it.

When you create an exact image to second drive, the target purpose
is to be able to yank a non-functioning drive and drop the imaged
drive into place. (A restorable image is something different. It's
usually compressed and can be restored to any drive that is large
enough to hold the uncompressed image.)

Have you tried booting with only the imaged drive placed as master
on the main controller? At this point, those recovery console fix it
thingies should be able to help with rebuilding the bootconfig and
boot record. Or, if PM will restore it, give that a try.

Or are you trying to maintain two bootable drives and trying to
switch between two separate XP installations? If this is what you're
doing and XP's boot manager is failing to handle this, you might
want to try a third party boot manager.

I no longer use Drive Image, stopped with Drive Image 6. The newer
version may offer alternatives that I'm not aware of - meaning that
the above may not apply.

For a drive to boot, there are some requirements. There has to be an
active partition, for one. On that partition the boot records and
files have to be available to get past the initial boot strap and
let it move on to the actual loading of the operating system.

I don't know the answer to your problem, William. Just typing some
thoughts "out loud" that may or may not help. It sounds like you're
so close to getting this to work but a step is missing. Just can't
put my finger on which step and since I don't use Drive Image can't
give specific advice.


Thank you, Sharon. You speak the truth, of course, and I'll simplify
your thinking by making it clear that when I've spoken about what
I do with the 'cloned' hard drive, I mean that I physically shut
the system down, and pull out the Master, and insert the Clone
exactly in its place, electrically and physically. There should
be no conflict there. BTW, D-I 7 is, I believe, the only version
for XP. The D-I 2002/6 version is expressly not for XP.

Yes, the drive onto which I Recover the Image is Active and Primary.
It is brand new and not even partitioned.

As an aside, and not pertinent here, I have another completely
separate drive with WIN ME on it, and I am able, through a
simple manipulation of the BIOS, to boot to HDD-0 (these XP
alternates) or to HDD-1 (the ME), should I care to go that route.

I think the next step will be for you, or Michael, to instruct me how
to deactivate the RC altogether, after which I will first test my
Master Drive (and pray that it will still work), and then repeat
the D-I Image creation followed by trying to create the clone from it.
W B L


Haven't had time to read everything (and still don't) but wanted to
inject a couple of points.

One,

A disk image is a set of files used to restore to the same or other
partition or drive. The disk image fileset is not itself usable to boot
from the partition where that fileset was stored. A *cloned* drive is
completely different. DriveImage will do both. You can have it create
a fileset containing a logical description of the physical definition of
a partition, or you can have it clone a drive (via "Copy Drives"
function).

A cloned disk can be swapped in for the source drive to look and behave
just like the source drive as long as you connect it the same way (as
you mention by moving it to the same port in the same physical scan
order). To a degree, a cloned drive is something like a one-shot
mirrored drive: the target disk is an exact copy of the source disk but
only at the time the target disk got cloned. A disk image fileset
cannot be used by itself to bring up a system but instead requires
running the imaging program to restore that image.

Two,

As far as the boot menu asking whether to select Windows XP or Recovery
Console, that has nothing to do with the boot sequence for starting the
operating system. The BIOS loads the bootstrap program from the first
460 bytes of sector 0 (MBR) of the first physically scanned hard disk
which then runs and loads the boot sector of the primary partition
marked as active which then starts the load of the operating system
which then reads (in the case of NT-based Windows) boot.ini to see which
parallel installed operating system to load, Windows XP or the Recovery
Console. The OS has already loaded its initial loader program and is
running and the boot process (from BIOS and hardware) is over.

You could uninstall the Recovery Console if you don't want to get the
menu to choose. Or you could shorten the menu timer to expire quicker.
Or you could edit boot.ini to remove the entry defining where to find
the Recovery Console interface (but that won't eliminate the Recovery
Console's files).

--
__________________________________________________ __________
*** Post replies to newsgroup. Share with others.
*** Email domain = ".com" *AND* append "=NEWS=" to Subject.
__________________________________________________ __________




  #27  
Old June 2nd 04, 05:41 AM
» mrtee «
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

If what you are trying to do is make an image of your system and restore =
it to a different drive may I reccomend TrueImage7 from www.acronis.com. =
It works and for only $49.99.

--=20
Just my 2=A2 worth
Jeff
__________in response to__________
"William B. Lurie" wrote in message =
...
| The XP Pro CD I have is not a Restore CD....it is a genuine
| Install CD. I know, because I installed from it. However,
| "backing up all data" is the reason for all of these
| machinations. I have a few dozen 'folders' full of files and
| data which are easy as pie (or pi) to copy to a CD, but
| that's just the tip of the iceberg. What would be utterly
| impossible to 'back up' is all of the software that's
| contained in all that is in "Program Files" and the Registry.
|=20
| I still say that, reading its literature, Drive Image was
| designed to do exactly what I'm trying to do. But it doesn't.
| And Power Quest, now Symantec, is almost impossible to get
| questions to, much less get answers from. I'm living with
| an Error Message in Norton System Works because, to repair
| it, just to fully uninstall it, would take reading through
| all the reference documents they had me link to...and print
| out....about 25 pages worth.......if I were to do it. The cure
| is worse than the disease. Sounds a little like trying to get
| rid of my Recovery Console.
|=20
| I will experiment with the cloned hard drive, and see if the
| procedures you have kindly detailed will get it 'repaired'.
| I doubt that I would ever accept the risks and uncertainties
| of doing it on my sacred system. The cloned drive may or may
| not be amenable to responding to that procedure. We shall see.
| And thank you for your inputs.
|=20
| --=20
| William B. Lurie
  #28  
Old June 2nd 04, 08:41 AM
Geoffw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

If the OS actually exists on the HD you could re install over the top to get a working version, I would then try the fixmbr and fixboot, reason I suggest this is that I had a problem with a non working clone that basically gave "no ntldr" errors everytime I tried to boot. I was able to switch between Os's because I ahd a few OS installled on different drives.

Point was that when I performed fixmbr and fixboot all the problems went away.

I am not positive but I thought that fixmbr was also included on the win98 boot disk - someone may clarify this - used it to fix a lilo boot loader problem a while back.

Good luck

Geoff

"William B. Lurie" wrote in message ...
Tried that, Geoff. Cannot get to Recovery Console. I put in the XP-CD,
rebooted. It gave me choice of going to XP or to RC. I chose RC, and
instead of finding it on the hard drive (where it was on the drive I did
the Image of), or on the CD, it stopped with message "file missing
or corrupt system32/hal.dll ......Please install a copy of that file."
Of course, it didn't tell me how to install it, even assuming I can find
in on the CD, where, if I find it, I expect it to be a ".dl_" file and not .dll..
Bill L.

Geoffw wrote:

boot from your cd and go to recovery console from there, I
assume it recognises the new clone as the OS when you search
for it via RC

use fixmbr and fixboot

I had a similar problem and this has resolved them for me

good luck

Geoff

"William B. Lurie" wrote in message
...

I think this leads back to my discussions with, and
advice from, Michael Solomon a while back.......

Since 'solving' the problems of creating a drive image
of my master hard drive with Drive Image 7, and creating
a clone of that drive with its PowerQuest Recovery
Environment software, I've been living is a fool's
paradise. I discovered this when I went to create the
monthly Drive Image yesterday, and create the clone on
a newly purchased hard drive.

I've been living with my Master drive booting to a
choice between normal start-up and Recovery Console,
a minor annoyance because after a ten-second countdown
it goes to normal boot, automatically. No problem there.

I believe that the main part of the problem is now that
the new exact clone does not have Master Boot Record
correct, because the 'Normal Boot' path leads to the
choices of Safe Mode or Normal etcetera, and no choice
gets to anything other than a repeat of that set of
choices. If I select Recovery Console, I get a short
DOS-type message saying that file 'xxxxx.dll' is missing,
and to reload it somehow from somewhere. I suspect that
more than one '.dll' file will be in the list of what it
needs. I tried selecting Recovery Console, hoping that I
could somehow do a FIXMBR there, but I can't get to RC.

Incidentally, in running Drive Image, I've repeated the
whole image-and-recreate process, with and without the
'keep the MBR' option, with no apparent difference in
results. I've tried to solve the problem without going to
you experts, but what I've considered all logical paths
haven't solved it.

William B. Lurie









--
William B. Lurie




  #29  
Old June 2nd 04, 01:41 PM
William B. Lurie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

*Vanguard* wrote:
William B. Lurie said in :

Sharon F wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 06:50:13 -0400, William B. Lurie wrote:



I think this leads back to my discussions with, and
advice from, Michael Solomon a while back.......

Since 'solving' the problems of creating a drive image
of my master hard drive with Drive Image 7, and creating
a clone of that drive with its PowerQuest Recovery
Environment software, I've been living is a fool's
paradise. I discovered this when I went to create the
monthly Drive Image yesterday, and create the clone on
a newly purchased hard drive.

I've been living with my Master drive booting to a
choice between normal start-up and Recovery Console,
a minor annoyance because after a ten-second countdown
it goes to normal boot, automatically. No problem there.

I believe that the main part of the problem is now that
the new exact clone does not have Master Boot Record
correct, because the 'Normal Boot' path leads to the
choices of Safe Mode or Normal etcetera, and no choice
gets to anything other than a repeat of that set of
choices. If I select Recovery Console, I get a short
DOS-type message saying that file 'xxxxx.dll' is missing,
and to reload it somehow from somewhere. I suspect that
more than one '.dll' file will be in the list of what it
needs. I tried selecting Recovery Console, hoping that I
could somehow do a FIXMBR there, but I can't get to RC.

Incidentally, in running Drive Image, I've repeated the
whole image-and-recreate process, with and without the
'keep the MBR' option, with no apparent difference in
results. I've tried to solve the problem without going to
you experts, but what I've considered all logical paths
haven't solved it.

William B. Lurie


Something about your saga keeps nagging at the back of my mind but I
can't put my finger on it.

When you create an exact image to second drive, the target purpose
is to be able to yank a non-functioning drive and drop the imaged
drive into place. (A restorable image is something different. It's
usually compressed and can be restored to any drive that is large
enough to hold the uncompressed image.)

Have you tried booting with only the imaged drive placed as master
on the main controller? At this point, those recovery console fix it
thingies should be able to help with rebuilding the bootconfig and
boot record. Or, if PM will restore it, give that a try.

Or are you trying to maintain two bootable drives and trying to
switch between two separate XP installations? If this is what you're
doing and XP's boot manager is failing to handle this, you might
want to try a third party boot manager.

I no longer use Drive Image, stopped with Drive Image 6. The newer
version may offer alternatives that I'm not aware of - meaning that
the above may not apply.

For a drive to boot, there are some requirements. There has to be an
active partition, for one. On that partition the boot records and
files have to be available to get past the initial boot strap and
let it move on to the actual loading of the operating system.

I don't know the answer to your problem, William. Just typing some
thoughts "out loud" that may or may not help. It sounds like you're
so close to getting this to work but a step is missing. Just can't
put my finger on which step and since I don't use Drive Image can't
give specific advice.


Thank you, Sharon. You speak the truth, of course, and I'll simplify
your thinking by making it clear that when I've spoken about what
I do with the 'cloned' hard drive, I mean that I physically shut
the system down, and pull out the Master, and insert the Clone
exactly in its place, electrically and physically. There should
be no conflict there. BTW, D-I 7 is, I believe, the only version
for XP. The D-I 2002/6 version is expressly not for XP.

Yes, the drive onto which I Recover the Image is Active and Primary.
It is brand new and not even partitioned.

As an aside, and not pertinent here, I have another completely
separate drive with WIN ME on it, and I am able, through a
simple manipulation of the BIOS, to boot to HDD-0 (these XP
alternates) or to HDD-1 (the ME), should I care to go that route.

I think the next step will be for you, or Michael, to instruct me how
to deactivate the RC altogether, after which I will first test my
Master Drive (and pray that it will still work), and then repeat
the D-I Image creation followed by trying to create the clone from it.
W B L



Haven't had time to read everything (and still don't) but wanted to
inject a couple of points.

One,

A disk image is a set of files used to restore to the same or other
partition or drive. The disk image fileset is not itself usable to boot
from the partition where that fileset was stored. A *cloned* drive is
completely different. DriveImage will do both. You can have it create
a fileset containing a logical description of the physical definition of
a partition, or you can have it clone a drive (via "Copy Drives"
function).

A cloned disk can be swapped in for the source drive to look and behave
just like the source drive as long as you connect it the same way (as
you mention by moving it to the same port in the same physical scan
order). To a degree, a cloned drive is something like a one-shot
mirrored drive: the target disk is an exact copy of the source disk but
only at the time the target disk got cloned. A disk image fileset
cannot be used by itself to bring up a system but instead requires
running the imaging program to restore that image.

Two,

As far as the boot menu asking whether to select Windows XP or Recovery
Console, that has nothing to do with the boot sequence for starting the
operating system. The BIOS loads the bootstrap program from the first
460 bytes of sector 0 (MBR) of the first physically scanned hard disk
which then runs and loads the boot sector of the primary partition
marked as active which then starts the load of the operating system
which then reads (in the case of NT-based Windows) boot.ini to see which
parallel installed operating system to load, Windows XP or the Recovery
Console. The OS has already loaded its initial loader program and is
running and the boot process (from BIOS and hardware) is over.

You could uninstall the Recovery Console if you don't want to get the
menu to choose. Or you could shorten the menu timer to expire quicker.
Or you could edit boot.ini to remove the entry defining where to find
the Recovery Console interface (but that won't eliminate the Recovery
Console's files).

Thank you very much, Vang, for taking the time to enumerate
those facts explicitly. They make sense and I agree but am
unable to do what I'd like to try. For one thing, I'd like
to take Recovery Console out of the picture, and not by
reducing its delay time to zero, but just remove that option.
If any of the MVPs told me how to do that, I missed it.

For another thing, your interpretations of the *image* of a
drive, and a *copy* of a drive, make sense but are different
from what some MVPs led me to believe. Of course Drive Image 7
creates a file called an *image* which is a string of code
which its Restore software will convert back to something
like the original hard drive's code, but which itself is not
executable code. To me a *copy* of every bit and byte of
the code on the original source, an identical copy,
indistinguishable from the original, should be called a copy.
I was led to believe that that is not what I want.

It would be nice if it were possible to communicate with the
perpetrators of Drive Image 7 (PowerQuest, now Symantec) but
they have buried their tech support so deep that it just
isn't practical to try to get them to sort it out. And
the record speaks for itself with Microsoft. Well, I don't
know where to go from here. And thanks again.

--
William B. Lurie
  #30  
Old June 2nd 04, 02:41 PM
Sharon F
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 07:40:05 -0400, William B. Lurie wrote:

For one thing, I'd like
to take Recovery Console out of the picture, and not by
reducing its delay time to zero, but just remove that option.
If any of the MVPs told me how to do that, I missed it.


It was at the end of my other post to you:

"To remove the recovery console, delete the cmdcons folder from the root
(usually C and edit the boot.ini file to remove the reference to it."

You can also delete the cmldr file that is added by the recovery console
installation - also in the root folder.

William, the term image is used interchangeably for a cloned hard drive and
for an image set that is restored using the imaging software. Usually which
type of image is being discussed is noted very early in a discussion so
that both parties are on the same page. This is why I made the effort to
define the distinction at the beginning of my previous message.

Vanguard picked up on what I was trying to say and did a great job
expanding on the two different meanings. Thanks, Vanguard!

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows XP Shell/User
 




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