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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist



 
 
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  #46  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
Kadaitcha Man
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Graham wrote:

Did you go and read the supplied info at the link I posted. It clearly
states what can and cannot be done with an OEM disc.


You total ****ing idiotic ****-headed pillock. You can't just post a ****ing
link then tell people to go and read it. You have to quote the text and
argue why it supports your position, you stupid ****ing ****. Kindergarten
kids debate better than that, you ****witted ****.

The earth is flat: www.flat-earth.org/ read the link. The proof is there.

Get the idea, you ****ing fool? No? I figured as much.

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute


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  #47  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
Bill Drake
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

D.Currie wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs
have to support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell OEM.


There is no way to enforce this rule. It is always possible for the
unethical provider to come up with a plausible excuse for non-support.


As a small system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
questions face-to-face, and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also
get plenty of calls from people who have bought from the big guys,
and they can't get an answer.


And as a result, the unethical providers are dumping their support
costs on your back -- increasing their profits at your expense. Their
shareholder dividends are the direct result of your altruism -- and this
is a very conscious and deliberate policy on their part IMO.



Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,
and have no intention or ability to answer questions.


See above. Another example of the same. You've just described
simply a more-obvious example...


I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.


No. Many customers are just as unethical as the abovementioned
providers. They'll rape you and leave you freezing -- pay you 5 cents
on the dollar and scream with outrage at that -- and drive your
business into the ground.

Save your time and energy for clients who come to you straight-out
looking for value and willing to pay a fair price in the first place.
These are the only people worth your time and energy.



But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to give
the technical support they're supposed to. They aren't footing the
cost for proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which is
fine for the customer until they need help. And in the meantime, I'm
providing free tech support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
person in the meantime.


You're a fool to give these people the time of day.




"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote...
"Testy" wrote...
Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and
have every maker include a full CD.


Agreed.

I am tired of this industry's inane appeals to the
lowest-common-denominator cheapthink-element in our society.

The braindead marketeering policies currently in effect are a
*very efficient* way to ensure that *anyone* with enough brains
to amass the cash to buy a PC will *surely* avoid buying one
from any of the common suppliers.

And now you know why we're having this slump -- and why it
won't go away until we replace the airheads with engineers
and start producing computers with solid performance instead
of stalling and sputtering insanely unreliable junk.


Best I can do for now. tm


Bill






  #48  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
Ted
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message =
...
I knew you weren't talkin' about me :-)
=20


You're a ****ing cockeyed, arse ****ed, pillocking, bint bred, gormless =
**** brain!

This bitch heaps praise on you, as her code of ethics, for you not using =
the expletives that she "would assume" you'd use (in her self-honouring =
mind) to the OPs complaint letter. Yet you (at/or MS) remove(s) messages =
that you('d) otherwise deem offensive. This **** regularly ("regularly =
being 50-100 times/day) calls others, ****wits, cretins, morons, etc. =
Yet you shine through MS customer service excellence, by telling the OP =
INUT, that he's ****ed into a cocked hat, AFAMSIC, by then acknowledging =
a known ****'s praise on you and ignoring real customer concerns.
  #49  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
Gail
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

I think Ted has a few issues - too bad he doesn't have anything to say from the
other orifice in his body



"Ted" """"""""""""""" wrote in message
s.com...

"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message
...
I knew you weren't talkin' about me :-)


You're a ****ing cockeyed, arse ****ed, pillocking, bint bred, gormless ****
brain!

This bitch heaps praise on you, as her code of ethics, for you not using the
expletives that she "would assume" you'd use (in her self-honouring mind) to the
OPs complaint letter. Yet you (at/or MS) remove(s) messages that you('d)
otherwise deem offensive. This **** regularly ("regularly being 50-100
times/day) calls others, ****wits, cretins, morons, etc. Yet you shine through
MS customer service excellence, by telling the OP INUT, that he's ****ed into a
cocked hat, AFAMSIC, by then acknowledging a known ****'s praise on you and
ignoring real customer concerns.


  #50  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
Ted
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Gail" wrote in message =
...
I think Ted has a few issues - too bad he doesn't have anything to =

say from the
other orifice in his body
=20


You mean, you get a better understanding of these NGs, while you =
aspirate the ferocious gases released out from between the cheeks of =
one's bums?=20

By the way, you're a top-posting bint too!
  #51  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
Gail
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Actually I was inferring that you are spouting from your bum and the result is
quite nauseating.

Gee thanks for pointing out that I am a top poster -- I had not noticed that!
Wow -- the observation prowness that you profess. I bow low in your presence)


"Ted" """"""""""""""" wrote in message
s.com...

"Gail" wrote in message
...
I think Ted has a few issues - too bad he doesn't have anything to say from

the
other orifice in his body


You mean, you get a better understanding of these NGs, while you aspirate the
ferocious gases released out from between the cheeks of one's bums?

By the way, you're a top-posting bint too!


  #52  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
D.Currie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Bill Drake" wrote in message
...
D.Currie wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs
have to support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell OEM.


There is no way to enforce this rule. It is always possible for the
unethical provider to come up with a plausible excuse for non-support.


As a small system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
questions face-to-face, and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also
get plenty of calls from people who have bought from the big guys,
and they can't get an answer.


And as a result, the unethical providers are dumping their support
costs on your back -- increasing their profits at your expense. Their
shareholder dividends are the direct result of your altruism -- and this
is a very conscious and deliberate policy on their part IMO.



Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,
and have no intention or ability to answer questions.


See above. Another example of the same. You've just described
simply a more-obvious example...


I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.


No. Many customers are just as unethical as the abovementioned
providers. They'll rape you and leave you freezing -- pay you 5 cents
on the dollar and scream with outrage at that -- and drive your
business into the ground.

Save your time and energy for clients who come to you straight-out
looking for value and willing to pay a fair price in the first place.
These are the only people worth your time and energy.



But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to give
the technical support they're supposed to. They aren't footing the
cost for proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which is
fine for the customer until they need help. And in the meantime, I'm
providing free tech support in the hopes that I'll get work from that
person in the meantime.


You're a fool to give these people the time of day.


The advice I offer on the phone costs me as little as what responding on
these newsgroups does. And the ones on the phone have the potential of
becoming customers. Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come
in for service after calling, since some people, even with instruction, are
skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And I have quite a
number of customers who ignore their warranty and bring the computer to me
for repair. Or I diagnose they problem, they get parts under warranty, and I
replace them. So it's not all bad.

As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get all of the
ones who don't provide support, but they could crack down on the most
blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be easy for them to muscle
companies like Dell and Gateway and the like. When people call for support
and day, "Dell won't help me" they've got the evidence right there.

Of course, they won't do it, but it would be nice.


  #53  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
Mister Charlie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Ted" """"""""""""""" wrote in message
s.com...

"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message
...
I knew you weren't talkin' about me :-)


You're a ****ing cockeyed, arse ****ed, pillocking, bint bred, gormless
**** brain!

This one sentence clearly defines what and who YOU are. PLONK.


  #54  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
Alun Jones [MS MVP]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

In article , "D.Currie"
wrote:
The advice I offer on the phone costs me as little as what responding on
these newsgroups does. And the ones on the phone have the potential of
becoming customers.


A lot of people make this same assumption when posting to Usenet - that they
are engaging in a dialogue, that only their correspondents are involved in.
For every person that writes a post in Usenet, there are at least a dozen,
up to several hundred, that read that post. The advice you offer here may
be more valuable than advice you offer over the phone, which is very
definitely a one-to-one medium.

Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come
in for service after calling, since some people, even with instruction, are
skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And I have quite a
number of customers who ignore their warranty and bring the computer to me
for repair. Or I diagnose they problem, they get parts under warranty, and I
replace them. So it's not all bad.


There's a lot to be said for treating everyone nicely - it's a great way to
attract new business. "I shan't buy my computer from the company that
treated me like an irritation even when they were supposed to be obliged to
help me; I'll buy it from the company that treated me like a valued customer
even though I hadn't bought anything from them yet". Of course, there has
to be some balance, otherwise you get freeloaders taking advantage of you,
or even just a wealth of well-intentioned newcomers who just haven't got
around to buying from you, and put you in the red as a result.

As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get all of the
ones who don't provide support, but they could crack down on the most
blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be easy for them to muscle
companies like Dell and Gateway and the like. When people call for support
and day, "Dell won't help me" they've got the evidence right there.


Of course, the problem with that is that it takes a lot of effort to allege
contract breach, and when you do, it's not generally a quick or satisfactory
solution that comes out of the other side.

Alun.
~~~~
  #55  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
Bill Drake
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

D.Currie wrote:
"Bill Drake" wrote...
D.Currie wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs
have to support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell OEM.


There is no way to enforce this rule. It is always possible for the
unethical provider to come up with a plausible excuse for
non-support.


As a small system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
questions face-to-face, and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also
get plenty of calls from people who have bought from the big guys,
and they can't get an answer.


And as a result, the unethical providers are dumping their support
costs on your back -- increasing their profits at your expense.
Their shareholder dividends are the direct result of your altruism
-- and this is a very conscious and deliberate policy on their part
IMO.



Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,
and have no intention or ability to answer questions.


See above. Another example of the same. You've just described
simply a more-obvious example...


I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.


No. Many customers are just as unethical as the abovementioned
providers. They'll rape you and leave you freezing -- pay you 5
cents on the dollar and scream with outrage at that -- and drive
your business into the ground.

Save your time and energy for clients who come to you straight-out
looking for value and willing to pay a fair price in the first place.
These are the only people worth your time and energy.



But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to give
the technical support they're supposed to. They aren't footing the
cost for proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which is
fine for the customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
I'm providing free tech support in the hopes that I'll get work
from that person in the meantime.


You're a fool to give these people the time of day.


The advice I offer on the phone costs me as little as what
responding on these newsgroups does. And the ones on the
phone have the potential of becoming customers.


If you are successful at this, you will find yourself spending more
and more time giving "free" advice to these people. As long as
you *have* free time -- this is fine.

It's when you get busy and start saying things like "I can't help you
now" -- that you will find there are unreasonable and loutish clients
who are simply rude and demanding -- even when you are being a
"nice guy".


Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come in for
service after calling, since some people, even with instruction,
are skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And
I have quite a number of customers who ignore their warranty
and bring the computer to me for repair. Or I diagnose they
problem, they get parts under warranty, and I replace them.
So it's not all bad.


Fine. They're paying you for this service.



As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get
all of the ones who don't provide support, but they could crack
down on the most blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be
easy for them to muscle companies like Dell and Gateway and
the like. When people call for support and day, "Dell won't help
me" they've got the evidence right there.

Of course, they won't do it, but it would be nice.


I noticed you didn't quote the further paragraphs in my previous
post. Nor did you comment on that. Yet you made the above
remark. I find that sad.

The "Of course, they won't do it" is *intimately" tied into the whole
airhead marketing-mentality avoidance-of-responsibility mindset
that dumps marketeer-created problems into other people's laps.

And your high-minded "noble" attitude to the problem is part of
the reason this silly nonsense continues.

Marketeers need to be ground up, spit out and pounded into
the ground for turning this business into a circus that only a fool
could love.



Best I can do for now. tm


Bill



  #56  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
jackfrost64
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

With a mouth like yours you should not only be banned from this newsgroup
but from The internet as a whole.!!! idiot



"Mister Charlie" wrote in message
...

"Ted" """"""""""""""" wrote in message
s.com...

"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message
...
I knew you weren't talkin' about me :-)


You're a ****ing cockeyed, arse ****ed, pillocking, bint bred, gormless
**** brain!

This one sentence clearly defines what and who YOU are. PLONK.




  #57  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
D.Currie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Alun Jones [MS MVP]" wrote in message
. ..
In article , "D.Currie"
wrote:
The advice I offer on the phone costs me as little as what responding on
these newsgroups does. And the ones on the phone have the potential of
becoming customers.


A lot of people make this same assumption when posting to Usenet - that

they
are engaging in a dialogue, that only their correspondents are involved

in.
For every person that writes a post in Usenet, there are at least a dozen,
up to several hundred, that read that post. The advice you offer here may
be more valuable than advice you offer over the phone, which is very
definitely a one-to-one medium.


I wasn't commenting on how many people get helped per message, just that
helping on the newsgroup and helping on the phone "cost" me the same as far
as my effort is concerned. And the only reason I said that was because
someone else had called me a fool for helping people who aren't customers.
The newsgroups is less likely to yield paying customers, but I do it anyway,
as do many others.


Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come
in for service after calling, since some people, even with instruction,

are
skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And I have quite

a
number of customers who ignore their warranty and bring the computer to

me
for repair. Or I diagnose they problem, they get parts under warranty,

and I
replace them. So it's not all bad.


There's a lot to be said for treating everyone nicely - it's a great way

to
attract new business. "I shan't buy my computer from the company that
treated me like an irritation even when they were supposed to be obliged

to
help me; I'll buy it from the company that treated me like a valued

customer
even though I hadn't bought anything from them yet". Of course, there has
to be some balance, otherwise you get freeloaders taking advantage of you,
or even just a wealth of well-intentioned newcomers who just haven't got
around to buying from you, and put you in the red as a result.


There's always a point where I can say that I don't have time to chat, or
that the problem is not one that can be fixed easily over the phone. But
there's always some lagtime in the day, and it's better to be doing
something than nothing.


As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get all of

the
ones who don't provide support, but they could crack down on the most
blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be easy for them to muscle
companies like Dell and Gateway and the like. When people call for

support
and day, "Dell won't help me" they've got the evidence right there.


Of course, the problem with that is that it takes a lot of effort to

allege
contract breach, and when you do, it's not generally a quick or

satisfactory
solution that comes out of the other side.


Suppose so. The ones I'd really like to hang are the ones who sell supposed
"full" versions of the OS, then when the customer gets it, it's OEM, it
won't do an upgrade, they can't get support for MS, and they usually can't
return the product.


  #58  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
D.Currie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Bill Drake" wrote in message
...
D.Currie wrote:
"Bill Drake" wrote...
D.Currie wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs
have to support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell OEM.

There is no way to enforce this rule. It is always possible for the
unethical provider to come up with a plausible excuse for
non-support.


As a small system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
questions face-to-face, and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also
get plenty of calls from people who have bought from the big guys,
and they can't get an answer.

And as a result, the unethical providers are dumping their support
costs on your back -- increasing their profits at your expense.
Their shareholder dividends are the direct result of your altruism
-- and this is a very conscious and deliberate policy on their part
IMO.



Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,
and have no intention or ability to answer questions.

See above. Another example of the same. You've just described
simply a more-obvious example...


I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.

No. Many customers are just as unethical as the abovementioned
providers. They'll rape you and leave you freezing -- pay you 5
cents on the dollar and scream with outrage at that -- and drive
your business into the ground.

Save your time and energy for clients who come to you straight-out
looking for value and willing to pay a fair price in the first place.
These are the only people worth your time and energy.



But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to give
the technical support they're supposed to. They aren't footing the
cost for proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which is
fine for the customer until they need help. And in the meantime,
I'm providing free tech support in the hopes that I'll get work
from that person in the meantime.

You're a fool to give these people the time of day.


The advice I offer on the phone costs me as little as what
responding on these newsgroups does. And the ones on the
phone have the potential of becoming customers.


If you are successful at this, you will find yourself spending more
and more time giving "free" advice to these people. As long as
you *have* free time -- this is fine.


I've owned the store for 6 years, and I've managed to work it out. Some
things can't easily be solved over the phone, and some people should not
stick their hands inside their computers. In six years, I've had very few
people who simply waste my time, and if I have other things that need to be
done, that's what I do. If it's a problem that intrigues me, or a person the
I enjoy helping, it's my time to waste.


It's when you get busy and start saying things like "I can't help you
now" -- that you will find there are unreasonable and loutish clients
who are simply rude and demanding -- even when you are being a
"nice guy".


I've done that. No one's gotten rude or demanding.



Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come in for
service after calling, since some people, even with instruction,
are skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And
I have quite a number of customers who ignore their warranty
and bring the computer to me for repair. Or I diagnose they
problem, they get parts under warranty, and I replace them.
So it's not all bad.


Fine. They're paying you for this service.


And many have come to me because they called first, and I offered some
simple suggestions. If it was something they couldn't do, or didn't work,
they bring the work to me. It doesn't always happen, but we also get a lot
of referrals from those sorts of people because we're not rude when people
call with questions.


As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get
all of the ones who don't provide support, but they could crack
down on the most blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be
easy for them to muscle companies like Dell and Gateway and
the like. When people call for support and day, "Dell won't help
me" they've got the evidence right there.

Of course, they won't do it, but it would be nice.


I noticed you didn't quote the further paragraphs in my previous
post. Nor did you comment on that. Yet you made the above
remark. I find that sad.


I snipped after Mike B's header as that seemed to be a response to what he
said. Why you find that sad, I don't know, as now that I've looked back on
it, you snipped all of his post and responded to Testy's one line. As far as
my not commenting on it, this "marketeer" thing seems to be one of your
personal hotspots, which is fine. But I tend to respond to things that
either I can help with or that I have a comment about because it interests
and/or amuses me.

I'm sure that you also pick and choose what you respond to.

The "Of course, they won't do it" is *intimately" tied into the whole
airhead marketing-mentality avoidance-of-responsibility mindset
that dumps marketeer-created problems into other people's laps.

And your high-minded "noble" attitude to the problem is part of
the reason this silly nonsense continues.


Oh, I doubt that I'm being noble at all. I help non-customers on the phone
because I find that it's a good way to turn a percentage of them into
customers. If I look at what it costs me to answers those questions vs. what
it costs me for print advertising, then look at the number of customers each
gets me, the "being nice to people" on the phone gets me more customers.

As far as answering questions on the newsgroup, it's a great way to learn
what sorts of problems other people are having on their computers, so that
when I run across the same issue with a customer's computer, I have some
ideas what to look for. It's certainly more interesting than memorizing the
knowledge base.


Marketeers need to be ground up, spit out and pounded into
the ground for turning this business into a circus that only a fool
could love.


Well, you've already called me a fool, so there you have it.


  #59  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
D.Currie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

The problem may also be that not everyone who sells OEM software has an OEM
agreement with MS. Somewhere I have a document that says what I'm supposed
to do for the end user, and that includes providing support. Among other
things.

OTOH if a person buys OEM software independent of a system, he is probably
considered the system builder, and the seller is acting as a distributor
(albeit not one of MSs authorized distributors; another problem). As an OEM
with an agreement with MS, I get support from MS, but that individual who
buys one copy on the 'net doesn't get support as he's not in the program.

Another thing is that some people don't know where the line is between
technical support and training. And they aren't clear where they should go
for support, so they look in all the wrong places and get frustrated. Many
people think the system builder should be responsible for everything that
goes into the computer, and are quite surprised when Dell or whoever won't
troubleshoot their printers or games or obscure software.

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message
...
But is there "the rule that OEMs have to support the software" or is
that support if any comes from the OEM and not Microsoft.
The real fault may be that the customer is not informed why the OEM is
cheaper and what all the customer does and does not get.
Of course the idea "You get what you pay for" escapes many consumers
when they think they see a bargain and a not so informative
salesperson.
Microsoft may have a part in this as the packaging could be modified
to show it, however the package is not always seen by the consumer.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...oups/setup.asp
Please respond to newsgroup only for everyone's benefit.


"D.Currie" wrote in message
...
Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs

have to
support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell OEM. As a

small
system builder, my customers can come in and ask me questions

face-to-face,
and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I also get plenty of calls

from people
who have bought from the big guys, and they can't get an answer.

Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,

and have
no intention or ability to answer questions.

I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.

But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to give

the
technical support they're supposed to. They aren't footing the cost

for
proper support, so they sell their stuff cheap, which is fine for

the
customer until they need help. And in the meantime, I'm providing

free tech
support in the hopes that I'll get work from that person in the

meantime.




  #60  
Old December 5th 03, 01:49 AM
Bill Drake
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

D.Currie wrote:
"Bill Drake" wrote...
D.Currie wrote:
"Bill Drake" wrote...
D.Currie wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see some way to enforce the rule that OEMs
have to support the software. Or maybe lose the ability to sell
OEM.

There is no way to enforce this rule. It is always possible for
the unethical provider to come up with a plausible excuse for
non-support.


As a small system builder, my customers can come in and ask me
questions face-to-face, and that's fine. Or they'll call. But I
also get plenty of calls from people who have bought from the big
guys, and they can't get an answer.

And as a result, the unethical providers are dumping their support
costs on your back -- increasing their profits at your expense.
Their shareholder dividends are the direct result of your altruism
-- and this is a very conscious and deliberate policy on their part
IMO.



Then there are the people who sell the oem software with trinkets,
and have no intention or ability to answer questions.

See above. Another example of the same. You've just described
simply a more-obvious example...


I don't mind answering customer's questions, and even the not-yet
customers -- I figure some day I will get their business.

No. Many customers are just as unethical as the abovementioned
providers. They'll rape you and leave you freezing -- pay you 5
cents on the dollar and scream with outrage at that -- and drive
your business into the ground.

Save your time and energy for clients who come to you straight-out
looking for value and willing to pay a fair price in the first
place. These are the only people worth your time and energy.



But it does irritate me that others shirk the responsibility to
give the technical support they're supposed to. They aren't
footing the cost for proper support, so they sell their stuff
cheap, which is fine for the customer until they need help. And
in the meantime,
I'm providing free tech support in the hopes that I'll get work
from that person in the meantime.

You're a fool to give these people the time of day.


The advice I offer on the phone costs me as little as what
responding on these newsgroups does. And the ones on the
phone have the potential of becoming customers.


If you are successful at this, you will find yourself spending more
and more time giving "free" advice to these people. As long as
you *have* free time -- this is fine.


I've owned the store for 6 years, and I've managed to work it out.
Some things can't easily be solved over the phone, and some people
should not stick their hands inside their computers. In six years,
I've had very few people who simply waste my time, and if I have
other things that need to be done, that's what I do. If it's a
problem that intrigues me, or a person the I enjoy helping, it's my
time to waste.


Agreed. And if you've managed to stay in business for 6 years,
then obviously you've managed to find a way to balance your time
between altruistic behaviour and stuff that pays the bills.



It's when you get busy and start saying things like "I can't help you
now" -- that you will find there are unreasonable and loutish clients
who are simply rude and demanding -- even when you are being a
"nice guy".


I've done that. No one's gotten rude or demanding.


My own personal experience in the business -- along with the experience
of many of the dealers with whom I associate -- has been the complete
opposite. The vast majority of people in the Computer Industry I've
talked to in any of the major metropolitan centres in North America tell
me monotonously-similar stories.

I am *really* pleased this hasn't happened to you. I am also *very*
surprised this hasn't happened to you. All things considered -- I'd move
wherever you are in a nanosecond and work there happily... grin


Actually I've gotten quite a few customers who've come in for
service after calling, since some people, even with instruction,
are skittish about doing certain things with their computer. And
I have quite a number of customers who ignore their warranty
and bring the computer to me for repair. Or I diagnose they
problem, they get parts under warranty, and I replace them.
So it's not all bad.


Fine. They're paying you for this service.


And many have come to me because they called first, and I offered
some simple suggestions. If it was something they couldn't do, or didn't
work, they bring the work to me. It doesn't always happen, but we
also get a lot of referrals from those sorts of people because we're
not rude when people call with questions.


And that's simply good business practice. So, if that's good business
practice, then why don't Dell, Gateway, HP, IBM, or MS follow those
procedures? Because they cost more money than dumping the process
on the backs of others.

And this simply encourages an irresponsible attitude on the part of
*everyone* in the business -- and that irresponsible attitude turns
broken hardware and software into a way of life that makes computers
so frustrating and unrewarding that *fewer and fewer* use PCs willingly
anymore.

And that's why we're in this slump.


As far as the enforceability of it, there's no way they could get
all of the ones who don't provide support, but they could crack
down on the most blatant offenders. And you'd think it would be
easy for them to muscle companies like Dell and Gateway and
the like. When people call for support and day, "Dell won't help
me" they've got the evidence right there.

Of course, they won't do it, but it would be nice.


I noticed you didn't quote the further paragraphs in my previous
post. Nor did you comment on that. Yet you made the above
remark. I find that sad.


I snipped after Mike B's header as that seemed to be a response to
what he said. Why you find that sad, I don't know, as now that I've
looked back on it, you snipped all of his post and responded to
Testy's one line. As far as my not commenting on it, this "marketeer"
thing seems to be one of your personal hotspots, which is fine. But I
tend to respond to things that either I can help with or that I have
a comment about because it interests and/or amuses me.

I'm sure that you also pick and choose what you respond to.


Agreed.



The "Of course, they won't do it" is *intimately" tied into the whole
airhead marketing-mentality avoidance-of-responsibility mindset
that dumps marketeer-created problems into other people's laps.

And your high-minded "noble" attitude to the problem is part of
the reason this silly nonsense continues.


Oh, I doubt that I'm being noble at all. I help non-customers on the
phone because I find that it's a good way to turn a percentage of
them into customers. If I look at what it costs me to answers those
questions vs. what it costs me for print advertising, then look at
the number of customers each gets me, the "being nice to people"
on the phone gets me more customers.


No problem. Sound business practice. See above for why so many
in the industry don't follow the practice -- and the inevitable consequence.


As far as answering questions on the newsgroup, it's a great way to
learn what sorts of problems other people are having on their
computers, so that when I run across the same issue with a customer's
computer, I have some ideas what to look for. It's certainly more
interesting than memorizing the knowledge base.


And we're all here on the newsgroups because our collective knowledge
is *way* more powerful than the knowledgebase will *ever* be. And
everybody knows it. And that's why I participate in discussions like this
one -- because *this* is how we gather the consensus required to change
the world.




Marketeers need to be ground up, spit out and pounded into
the ground for turning this business into a circus that only a fool
could love.


Well, you've already called me a fool, so there you have it.


You've missed my point. I said you were a fool if you wasted your
time dealing with the ungrateful and those who would pay you 5 cents
on the dollar for your work.

I stand behind that statement.


From what you've told me -- you have somehow avoided that trap.
Good for you.

By a combination of good luck, good management and good
location -- your client-base is remarkably free of the kind of
wasteful freeloaders that drive many well-intentioned businesses
into the ground. This is great -- and I wish you well.



Best I can do for now. tm


Bill



 




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