If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Rating: | Display Modes |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Lightscribe
On Mon, 21 Jan 2013 07:04:36 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:
"Paul" wrote: SC Tom wrote: "W. eWatson" wrote in message ... I just discovered lightscribe. I see there are 3 packages for it. Do any of them allow me to put several lines of type on them? For example, suppose I want to put something like this on it. April May June May want to have 6 or 7 such lines. Can one control the type size? First you need to DL and install the Lightscribe System Software http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadsection/windows/index.aspx?id=810 Then, DL and install the Lightscribe Template Labeler http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadSection/windows/index.aspx?id=1524 There are a number of templates included with the software, and you can DL additional templates http://www.lightscribe.com/ideas/index.aspx?id=2564 I've used this software, and it's pretty intuitive and easy to use. Font sizes and lines are adjustable to a certain extent on a lot of the templates, or you can create your own labels with the Lightscribe Simple Labeler (which was not quite as simple as the template software) http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadSection/windows/index.aspx?id=811 I await W's feedback, when it takes a long time to get a high contrast label. Maybe it's improved, since the last time I researched it. I have a Lightscribe drive here, but have never had Lightscribe media, as the description of the burn time to do a good label, was too long. If it takes longer to burn the label, than to burn the data, that takes the fun out of it. The burn time can be extended, to enhance the contrast ratio. In the past, people did multi-pass burns, to get a label that stands out well. A single pass might not be enough. The burn time might be reduced, with clever label design such that all the text was concentrated into a smaller set of concentric circles of pixels. That might help. Rather than drawing huge pictures of Sparkle Ponies on the label, to make them "pretty" :-) Paul Lightscribed labels (burned onto the cover side of a LS disc) will fade over time. They start out somewhat dim, dim over time, and fade into non-legibility. Some folks will put forth a major effort in designing graphics for their labels only to have them mottle and fade away. See some example images at: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/509687 When I first got a LS-capable optical drive, sure, I started playing with it and even bought the more expensive LS media. I was disappointed with the low contrast on the initial print and a buddy of mine showed what happens if the discs are exposed to light, especially sunlight (i.e., UV light). Unless you get special printers for optical discs that use expensive long-term permanent inks, ink printing on the disc also fades. I went back to my stick-on labels printed on an inkjet or laser. At worst, the glue might fade and the label drop off but tis easy 'nuff to stick it back on. Some stick-on labels are so permanent that any attempt to remove them results in peeling up the shiny coating on that same side where is the data. While some users put the LS discs inside a zippered case thinking they'll be protected from light, I've seen those LS discs get faded after 1-1/2 years -- and the fading matches the rounded U-shaped slot in the cover plastic (i.e., where the clear plastic wasn't over the disc is where the disc is most faded). You also have to be careful what material is used in whatever storage you use. http://www.lightscribe.com/support/k....aspx?faqid=97 http://www.lightscribe.com/support/k....aspx?faqid=96 I believe the claim is that fading does not occur for 2 years when the LS-labelled disc is exposed only to indoor light (which means no full spectrum lighting). You want to hide these discs from sunlight. Heat affects fade rate so don't leave the LS discs inside an optical drive where temperatures are elevated. Apparently even humidity affects fade rate. Those who are sloppy in handling optical media will find the oil from their fingerprints also fades the LS image. With all the precautions needed to preserve an otherwise crappy image, there didn't seem much point in wasting the time to create LS images, buy the more pricey discs, and spend the time burning the image onto the LS discs. All you can do is slow the fading process. It will still fade. LS doesn't produce permanent labels. I have maybe 10 LS disks from around December 2008 to February 2009, i.e., just about four years old (I didn't look at any of my newer ones). No sign of fading. They are all in slimline jewel cases, however. Unfortunately for experimental purposes, I had a lot more until recently, but I threw them away, and I don't recall how they looked. For months, they were in a pile without any kind of cases, because I was v-e-r-y slow in moving them from the discard pile to the trash can. -- Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch) |
Ads |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Lightscribe
"Nil" wrote:
On 21 Jan 2013, VanguardLH wrote in alt.windows7.general: I went back to my stick-on labels printed on an inkjet or laser. At worst, the glue might fade and the label drop off but tis easy 'nuff to stick it back on. Some stick-on labels are so permanent that any attempt to remove them results in peeling up the shiny coating on that same side where is the data. I do not recommend stick-on labels. I used to use the CD Stomper system, and almost ever disk I labeled that way has gone bad. I don't know if the glue attacked the disk, or if it throws it off-balance, or what, but most of the (audio CD) disks now suffer from "helicopter noise syndrome" Off-balance vibration caused by improper placement of the label. Even commercial producers of labelled discs (using stick-on labels versus disc ink printers) can sometimes get the labels off kilter on an entire batch of production. If I got one of those, I didn't go back to the retail store to exchange it for another one since the retailer probably got them in a batch. I haven't used Avery's CD Stomper product so I don't know how they try to ensure the sticky label is aligned to the disc BEFORE pressing the label onto the disc and if they press the center of the label (by the spindle hole) onto the disc before pressing on the outer edge (i.e., press on from middle outward). The one currently shown at Avery's site (cdstomper.com) looks like a flat bed where you have to not only use the spindle rod to align the label but also make sure the edges of the spindle hole in the label match up with the embossed circle on the disc. http://www.cdstomper.com/products/De...its/index.html I found a Youtube video that shows Avery either had a prior or later model for the label installer that had it bend. The label went onto the applicator with sticky side up and was curved. You put the disc atop the label which would only contact along one radius of the label. Pressing down had the label apply from that radius outward to eliminate bubbles. However, I don't see a means of aligning the edge of the spindle hole in the label with the embossed circle on the disc around the spindle hole. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3N7Pzm9dJw The old kit that I have (no brand marked on it) has the label go over a fat spindle. Instead of trying to make the user align the edge of the hole in the label to a ridge on a plate on the stamper, the label slid over a fat spindle. That way, the label wasn't going to slide around at all while the user was pressing the disc onto the upturned label (sticky side up). The process was to slide the label over the fat spindle and press down on a disc when pushed the spring-loaded fat spindle down into the body of the stamper. The disc was held in alignment during the downward press by the small spindle (in the hold of the disc) while the label was held in place by the fat spindle that retracted into the base. As I recall, I use two hands instead of one. One hand's finger hold onto the sides of the disc while slightly flexing it upward while the other hand presses down on the disc. The label gets applied along one radius of the disc and I unflex the disc to apply the label to the rest of the disc. That eliminated any bubbling or uneven application of the label. The stampers I see nowadays has the user trying to keep the label hole positioned on a ridge rather than fixed in place by a fat spindle. While mine isn't an Avery model, it looks like Avery used to make one with the retracting spring-loaded fat spindle to hold the label while pressing the disc down along the skinny spindle. You also have to be mindful on the distribution of ink on the label. If you black out one half of the label, maybe to show white text there, or half is heavily colored and the other half is white (no ink) with some black text, the blacked out or heavily colored side will be heavier due to the addition of lots of ink. Even if you use a profession disc printer you have to watch the balance of your artwork so it doesn't unbalance the disc after the image is printed on the disc. It only takes a small weight misplaced on your wheel to unbalance your car tire. Same goes for small off-balanced weight on an optical disc. I've had discs where the spindle hole was very slightly off center. They were balanced enough not to vibrate the drive motor but adding label accentuated the off-balance condition. The disc was off balanced and adding more weight just made it worse (more momentum with more mass). No choice but to toss those. Disc printers are probably the best choice for permanent labels. Ink is pricey, however. Labels are probably the next best as long as you properly position them and there exists no pre-existing flaws in the disc. Lots of commercial discs use stick-on labels. Lightscribe is the lowest grade of label. While it allows you nicer printing than a Sharpie, the Sharpie markings last longer. So great looking but non-permanent (fading) versus sloppy Sharpie but more permanent. Yeah, you might burn a disc and apply a label only to trash it because it was or became unbalanced but you know that now when you labelled the disc (you do test them after labelling them, right?). With Lightscribe labelling, the job works now but the label disappears later while in storage (so you won't notice the fading until years later when you get around to using that disc). I don't remember which brand but I have used some where the glue simply evaporated and I ended up with a loose label stored with the disc. Twas easy enough to apply more spray glue in an even pattern to reapply and the label was still completel legible (no fading). I don't much label my discs but in the last few years the labels were permanent. Years later when I decided to discard a disc, there was no way to remove the label. In fact, if you used an Xacto knife to wedge under the label, you could remove the label only with it also yanking off the silvery material on which the data is recorded and you ended up with a clear disc like those you see at the end of a stack of CDs sold on a spindle. The glue was stronger on the label than the metallic foil on the disc. A rigid optical disc turned into a floppy foil disc; see: http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggIma...20_3398973.jpg Mine looks more like: http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggIma...fVAVhHjKDG.jpg except mine also had little tension fingers alongside the outer edge of the fat spindle that you pressed in to slide the label over them and made sure the label didn't move around and it stayed DOWN on the base plate. As far as Lightscribe - it takes too long, the result isn't very attractive, and I figure it puts too much wear and tear on the drive. It was a novelty at first, but I don't bother with it any more. Not many new drives seem to have the feature, so I guess it's going the way of the dodo. The time to etch a LS label was one of several reasons I gave up on that technology. Obviously the more dense the image (for contrast) or the more printing (larger image) then the longer to etch it. I resigned from fancy labels using LS and went to just simple and short text. Then there was the promise versus reality. The first time I printed an LS label on an LS disc my reaction was "That's it?" I figured I did something wrong but repeated trials didn't improve on image quality. I saw LS-printed discs by other users and was equally unimpressed. Frankly I haven't heard anyone wanting, using, or looking for Lightscribe drives or media for quite awhile. The fad passed. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Lightscribe
"Gene E. Bloch" wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jan 2013 07:04:36 -0600, VanguardLH wrote: "Paul" wrote: SC Tom wrote: "W. eWatson" wrote in message ... I just discovered lightscribe. I see there are 3 packages for it. Do any of them allow me to put several lines of type on them? For example, suppose I want to put something like this on it. April May June May want to have 6 or 7 such lines. Can one control the type size? First you need to DL and install the Lightscribe System Software http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadsection/windows/index.aspx?id=810 Then, DL and install the Lightscribe Template Labeler http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadSection/windows/index.aspx?id=1524 There are a number of templates included with the software, and you can DL additional templates http://www.lightscribe.com/ideas/index.aspx?id=2564 I've used this software, and it's pretty intuitive and easy to use. Font sizes and lines are adjustable to a certain extent on a lot of the templates, or you can create your own labels with the Lightscribe Simple Labeler (which was not quite as simple as the template software) http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadSection/windows/index.aspx?id=811 I await W's feedback, when it takes a long time to get a high contrast label. Maybe it's improved, since the last time I researched it. I have a Lightscribe drive here, but have never had Lightscribe media, as the description of the burn time to do a good label, was too long. If it takes longer to burn the label, than to burn the data, that takes the fun out of it. The burn time can be extended, to enhance the contrast ratio. In the past, people did multi-pass burns, to get a label that stands out well. A single pass might not be enough. The burn time might be reduced, with clever label design such that all the text was concentrated into a smaller set of concentric circles of pixels. That might help. Rather than drawing huge pictures of Sparkle Ponies on the label, to make them "pretty" :-) Paul Lightscribed labels (burned onto the cover side of a LS disc) will fade over time. They start out somewhat dim, dim over time, and fade into non-legibility. Some folks will put forth a major effort in designing graphics for their labels only to have them mottle and fade away. See some example images at: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/509687 When I first got a LS-capable optical drive, sure, I started playing with it and even bought the more expensive LS media. I was disappointed with the low contrast on the initial print and a buddy of mine showed what happens if the discs are exposed to light, especially sunlight (i.e., UV light). Unless you get special printers for optical discs that use expensive long-term permanent inks, ink printing on the disc also fades. I went back to my stick-on labels printed on an inkjet or laser. At worst, the glue might fade and the label drop off but tis easy 'nuff to stick it back on. Some stick-on labels are so permanent that any attempt to remove them results in peeling up the shiny coating on that same side where is the data. While some users put the LS discs inside a zippered case thinking they'll be protected from light, I've seen those LS discs get faded after 1-1/2 years -- and the fading matches the rounded U-shaped slot in the cover plastic (i.e., where the clear plastic wasn't over the disc is where the disc is most faded). You also have to be careful what material is used in whatever storage you use. http://www.lightscribe.com/support/k....aspx?faqid=97 http://www.lightscribe.com/support/k....aspx?faqid=96 I believe the claim is that fading does not occur for 2 years when the LS-labelled disc is exposed only to indoor light (which means no full spectrum lighting). You want to hide these discs from sunlight. Heat affects fade rate so don't leave the LS discs inside an optical drive where temperatures are elevated. Apparently even humidity affects fade rate. Those who are sloppy in handling optical media will find the oil from their fingerprints also fades the LS image. With all the precautions needed to preserve an otherwise crappy image, there didn't seem much point in wasting the time to create LS images, buy the more pricey discs, and spend the time burning the image onto the LS discs. All you can do is slow the fading process. It will still fade. LS doesn't produce permanent labels. I have maybe 10 LS disks from around December 2008 to February 2009, i.e., just about four years old (I didn't look at any of my newer ones). No sign of fading. They are all in slimline jewel cases, however. Unfortunately for experimental purposes, I had a lot more until recently, but I threw them away, and I don't recall how they looked. For months, they were in a pile without any kind of cases, because I was v-e-r-y slow in moving them from the discard pile to the trash can. See how well they survive in your cold dark game-playing basement computer room. Okay, you didn't describe the environ but I couldn't help but imagine that image. Note that fading doesn't mean totally gone. It can also mean when contrast has dimmed for part of the image or text. If dimming is evenly distributed across the label, you probably won't notice it because you're reviewing the label years after it was etched. Dimming is most noticeable when it is uneven or drastic. If the label is "busy" enough, it can be difficult to notice the fade unless you look for it. From what I've seen of old LS labelled discs by multiple users of various brands, you're the exception. |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Lightscribe
On 1/19/2013 10:04 AM, Nil wrote:
On 19 Jan 2013, "W. eWatson" wrote in alt.windows7.general: I just discovered lightscribe. I see there are 3 packages for it. Do any of them allow me to put several lines of type on them? For example, suppose I want to put something like this on it. What do you mean "packages"? As far as I know, there is no Lightscribe capability included with Windows. You will therefore need to contact the company that makes this unspecified "package." I thought knowledge of this might have been more wide spread: http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadSection/windows/index.aspx?id=1524 |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Lightscribe
On 1/19/2013 2:04 PM, SC Tom wrote:
"W. eWatson" wrote in message ... I just discovered lightscribe. I see there are 3 packages for it. Do any of them allow me to put several lines of type on them? For example, suppose I want to put something like this on it. April May June May want to have 6 or 7 such lines. Can one control the type size? First you need to DL and install the Lightscribe System Software http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadsection/windows/index.aspx?id=810 Then, DL and install the Lightscribe Template Labeler http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadSection/windows/index.aspx?id=1524 There are a number of templates included with the software, and you can DL additional templates http://www.lightscribe.com/ideas/index.aspx?id=2564 I've used this software, and it's pretty intuitive and easy to use. Font sizes and lines are adjustable to a certain extent on a lot of the templates, or you can create your own labels with the Lightscribe Simple Labeler (which was not quite as simple as the template software) http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadSection/windows/index.aspx?id=811 DL? |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Lightscribe
On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:09:50 -0800, W. eWatson wrote:
On 1/19/2013 2:04 PM, SC Tom wrote: "W. eWatson" wrote in message ... I just discovered lightscribe. I see there are 3 packages for it. Do any of them allow me to put several lines of type on them? For example, suppose I want to put something like this on it. April May June May want to have 6 or 7 such lines. Can one control the type size? First you need to DL and install the Lightscribe System Software http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadsection/windows/index.aspx?id=810 Then, DL and install the Lightscribe Template Labeler http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadSection/windows/index.aspx?id=1524 There are a number of templates included with the software, and you can DL additional templates http://www.lightscribe.com/ideas/index.aspx?id=2564 I've used this software, and it's pretty intuitive and easy to use. Font sizes and lines are adjustable to a certain extent on a lot of the templates, or you can create your own labels with the Lightscribe Simple Labeler (which was not quite as simple as the template software) http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadSection/windows/index.aspx?id=811 DL? Download. -- Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch) |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Lightscribe
On 22 Jan 2013, "W. eWatson" wrote in
alt.windows7.general: I thought knowledge of this might have been more wide spread: http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadSection/windows/index.aspx?id=1524 Well, no, why would it? It's a non-Microsoft product, few people use Lightscribe, and you didn't mention it by name or describe it. The software would most likely be bundled with the optical drive or label design software. As is mentioned on the above page: "Your LightScribe product manufacturer will have the best knowledge of your specific configuration and needs, and they are recommended as your first source of updates whenever possible. "This limited support universal version of the LightScribe System Software offered here has not been specifically tested by your hardware provider, and is provided as an alternative should you have problems with obtaining an update." I only know about Lightscribe because I have Sure Thing CD Labeler, which came with its own set of drivers, as I recall. It included a capable editor which allowed you to put any graphic or text element anywhere you want. I uninstalled it couple of years ago because I didn't like the results and never used it. I think it's best to be complete and specific when asking technical questions, especially when they are off-topic in the forum you're asking in. You shouldn't assume other people know where you're coming from. Asking vague questions is certain to get you vague, incomplete, or wrong answers. |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Lightscribe
On 1/22/2013 6:11 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:09:50 -0800, W. eWatson wrote: On 1/19/2013 2:04 PM, SC Tom wrote: "W. eWatson" wrote in message ... I just discovered lightscribe. I see there are 3 packages for it. Do any of them allow me to put several lines of type on them? For example, suppose I want to put something like this on it. April May June May want to have 6 or 7 such lines. Can one control the type size? First you need to DL and install the Lightscribe System Software http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadsection/windows/index.aspx?id=810 Then, DL and install the Lightscribe Template Labeler http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadSection/windows/index.aspx?id=1524 There are a number of templates included with the software, and you can DL additional templates http://www.lightscribe.com/ideas/index.aspx?id=2564 I've used this software, and it's pretty intuitive and easy to use. Font sizes and lines are adjustable to a certain extent on a lot of the templates, or you can create your own labels with the Lightscribe Simple Labeler (which was not quite as simple as the template software) http://www.lightscribe.com/downloadSection/windows/index.aspx?id=811 DL? Download. While I have a couple of lightscribe capable burners, and some disks, I've not used them, other than to test the burners. The lightscribe "burn" takes some time, and, I can be quite impatient. Besides, I can buy good quality non lightscribe disks far cheaper. Besides, I also have a printer that is capable of printing on "printable" disks as well. It also takes time, and fiddling around, so I seldom used it either, although the results look better than lightscribe. |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Lightscribe
On Mon, 21 Jan 2013 09:43:44 -0500, SC Tom wrote:
I have a box full of the inkjet labels, but not sure if I still have the applicator device. I haven't used them in so long, they may be dried out by now, and won't even stick. I had two or three different styles of labels, and wasted a lot of ink on creating them, but I'd have to look to see if I still have any around. Since all of my music gets saved to laptop, PC and iPod, I can't remember the last time I pulled down my zipper case full of CDs. Stick-on labels certainly aren't the best. I've had them come off in a drive before. The heat affects the glue, and if they're not centered exactly perfectly, there can be balance problems. A couple years ago, I bought a Epson printer that prints directly to printable CD/DVD media. The results are discs that look professionally made. Well, the quality of the print, not necessarily the quality of the cover art design I regularly produce CDs for my son, who's a rap "artist", while it's a little time consuming swapping CDs from burner to print, making jewel case labels at Office Max/Depot on their full-color laser printer for 69 cents including heavy paper, 100-spindles of printable CDs, and less expensive sources for genuine Epson cartridges, the cost per CD comes in around $1.80. (It could be far less expensive, if using knock-off cartridges, but the Epson ink is the "Claria" ink, meant for CDs/DVDs. I don't know if the knock-off carts. have permanent ink, and haven't tried.) (Yes, I understand you don't need full-color printing on CDs, I just wanted to share the story.) |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Lightscribe
"DanS" wrote in message ... On Mon, 21 Jan 2013 09:43:44 -0500, SC Tom wrote: I have a box full of the inkjet labels, but not sure if I still have the applicator device. I haven't used them in so long, they may be dried out by now, and won't even stick. I had two or three different styles of labels, and wasted a lot of ink on creating them, but I'd have to look to see if I still have any around. Since all of my music gets saved to laptop, PC and iPod, I can't remember the last time I pulled down my zipper case full of CDs. Stick-on labels certainly aren't the best. I've had them come off in a drive before. The heat affects the glue, and if they're not centered exactly perfectly, there can be balance problems. A couple years ago, I bought a Epson printer that prints directly to printable CD/DVD media. The results are discs that look professionally made. Well, the quality of the print, not necessarily the quality of the cover art design I regularly produce CDs for my son, who's a rap "artist", while it's a little time consuming swapping CDs from burner to print, making jewel case labels at Office Max/Depot on their full-color laser printer for 69 cents including heavy paper, 100-spindles of printable CDs, and less expensive sources for genuine Epson cartridges, the cost per CD comes in around $1.80. (It could be far less expensive, if using knock-off cartridges, but the Epson ink is the "Claria" ink, meant for CDs/DVDs. I don't know if the knock-off carts. have permanent ink, and haven't tried.) (Yes, I understand you don't need full-color printing on CDs, I just wanted to share the story.) You may not *need* it, but if you have the capability, why not use it? I know I would :-) (Thanks for sharing!) -- SC Tom |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Lightscribe
On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 09:21:13 -0600 "DanS"
wrote in article On Mon, 21 Jan 2013 09:43:44 -0500, SC Tom wrote: I have a box full of the inkjet labels, but not sure if I still have the applicator device. I haven't used them in so long, they may be dried out by now, and won't even stick. I had two or three different styles of labels, and wasted a lot of ink on creating them, but I'd have to look to see if I still have any around. Since all of my music gets saved to laptop, PC and iPod, I can't remember the last time I pulled down my zipper case full of CDs. Stick-on labels certainly aren't the best. I've had them come off in a drive before. The heat affects the glue, and if they're not centered exactly perfectly, there can be balance problems. A couple years ago, I bought a Epson printer that prints directly to printable CD/DVD media. The results are discs that look professionally made. Well, the quality of the print, not necessarily the quality of the cover art design I regularly produce CDs for my son, who's a rap "artist", while it's a little time consuming swapping CDs from burner to print, making jewel case labels at Office Max/Depot on their full-color laser printer for 69 cents including heavy paper, 100-spindles of printable CDs, and less expensive sources for genuine Epson cartridges, the cost per CD comes in around $1.80. (It could be far less expensive, if using knock-off cartridges, but the Epson ink is the "Claria" ink, meant for CDs/DVDs. I don't know if the knock-off carts. have permanent ink, and haven't tried.) (Yes, I understand you don't need full-color printing on CDs, I just wanted to share the story.) I do the same with an Epson to print Taiyo-Yuden CD's and the results are very good. I stuck with genuine/expensive Epson ink, because I don't know if the 3rd party inks are forumlated for use on CD's. Just like using an anonymous felt-tip pen is a bad idea, because it may damage the top layer (the reflective one), no-brand inkjet ink may do the same. The few extra pennies per disk aren't worth the potential trouble. |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | Rate This Thread |
|
|