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Win XP to Win 10?



 
 
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  #46  
Old January 11th 19, 09:56 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Steve Hayes[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,042
Default Win XP to Win 10?

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 12:45:05 -0700, "Bill in Co"
[email protected] wrote:

Was just curious how many had taken the plunge and were happy about it. I
don't have any experience with Windows 10, but from what I can gather, you
"just" have to get used to its new interface, the use of "apps" (which I
assume are nearly the same thing as what we used to call programs), the
forced MS updates, and that many of the older programs can't be successfully
imported. Oh, and that you can get a classic start menu without tiles. (I'm
not sure what the distinction is between apps and programs on Windows 10).
Is all that about correct?


"Apps" is short for "Applications Programs", as opposed to systems
programs and utilities.

Apps are what you use your computer FOR, as opposed to programs that
enable the keyboard to communicate with CPU, the screen to display
stuff, things to be written to the disk drives etc.


--
Stephen Hayes, Author of The Year of the Dragon
Sample or purchase The Year of the Dragon:
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/907935
Web site: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail:
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  #47  
Old January 11th 19, 05:37 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
default[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 115
Default Win XP to Win 10?

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 12:45:05 -0700, "Bill in Co"
[email protected] wrote:

Was just curious how many had taken the plunge and were happy about it. I
don't have any experience with Windows 10, but from what I can gather, you
"just" have to get used to its new interface, the use of "apps" (which I
assume are nearly the same thing as what we used to call programs), the
forced MS updates, and that many of the older programs can't be successfully
imported. Oh, and that you can get a classic start menu without tiles. (I'm
not sure what the distinction is between apps and programs on Windows 10).
Is all that about correct?


My wife has a computer with W S10.

I'm thinking buying a revolver and taking careful aim at my foot is a
better use of the money.
  #48  
Old January 11th 19, 09:00 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default Win XP to Win 10?

Steve Hayes wrote:
On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 12:45:05 -0700, "Bill in Co"
[email protected] wrote:

Was just curious how many had taken the plunge and were happy about it.
I don't have any experience with Windows 10, but from what I can gather,
you "just" have to get used to its new interface, the use of "apps"
(which I assume are nearly the same thing as what we used to call
programs), the forced MS updates, and that many of the older programs
can't be successfully imported. Oh, and that you can get a classic start
menu without tiles. (I'm not sure what the distinction is between apps
and programs on Windows 10). Is all that about correct?


"Apps" is short for "Applications Programs", as opposed to systems
programs and utilities.

Apps are what you use your computer FOR, as opposed to programs that
enable the keyboard to communicate with CPU, the screen to display
stuff, things to be written to the disk drives etc.


OK, so basically what we used to call our useful software programs in the
pre-Windows 10 era is now called "apps", and it's just a change in
terminology. And those "apps" are still just exe files.

I'm used to the term apps only for Android devices, where that terminology
is standard.


  #49  
Old January 11th 19, 10:42 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,181
Default Win XP to Win 10?

Bill in Co wrote:
Steve Hayes wrote:
On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 12:45:05 -0700, "Bill in Co"
[email protected] wrote:

Was just curious how many had taken the plunge and were happy about it.
I don't have any experience with Windows 10, but from what I can gather,
you "just" have to get used to its new interface, the use of "apps"
(which I assume are nearly the same thing as what we used to call
programs), the forced MS updates, and that many of the older programs
can't be successfully imported. Oh, and that you can get a classic start
menu without tiles. (I'm not sure what the distinction is between apps
and programs on Windows 10). Is all that about correct?

"Apps" is short for "Applications Programs", as opposed to systems
programs and utilities.

Apps are what you use your computer FOR, as opposed to programs that
enable the keyboard to communicate with CPU, the screen to display
stuff, things to be written to the disk drives etc.


OK, so basically what we used to call our useful software programs in the
pre-Windows 10 era is now called "apps", and it's just a change in
terminology. And those "apps" are still just exe files.

I'm used to the term apps only for Android devices, where that terminology
is standard.


It's pretty hard to tell what the software is made of.

For example, I "dump" an EXE file in Program Files\WindowsApps
and the header portion has a "PE32+" signature, while the
tail end is... text. It's a manifest of stuff to launch or a
set of dependencies or something.

A utility that would normally identify it, calls it "PE32+",
which is disingenuous. As that's not what it is.

Paul

  #50  
Old January 11th 19, 11:40 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default Win XP to Win 10?

Paul wrote:
Bill in Co wrote:
Steve Hayes wrote:
On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 12:45:05 -0700, "Bill in Co"
[email protected] wrote:

Was just curious how many had taken the plunge and were happy about it.
I don't have any experience with Windows 10, but from what I can
gather, you "just" have to get used to its new interface, the use of
"apps" (which I assume are nearly the same thing as what we used to
call programs), the forced MS updates, and that many of the older
programs can't be successfully imported. Oh, and that you can get a
classic start menu without tiles. (I'm not sure what the distinction
is between apps and programs on Windows 10). Is all that about correct?

"Apps" is short for "Applications Programs", as opposed to systems
programs and utilities.

Apps are what you use your computer FOR, as opposed to programs that
enable the keyboard to communicate with CPU, the screen to display
stuff, things to be written to the disk drives etc.


OK, so basically what we used to call our useful software programs in the
pre-Windows 10 era is now called "apps", and it's just a change in
terminology. And those "apps" are still just exe files.

I'm used to the term apps only for Android devices, where that
terminology is standard.


It's pretty hard to tell what the software is made of.

For example, I "dump" an EXE file in Program Files\WindowsApps
and the header portion has a "PE32+" signature, while the
tail end is... text. It's a manifest of stuff to launch or a
set of dependencies or something.

A utility that would normally identify it, calls it "PE32+",
which is disingenuous. As that's not what it is.

Paul


So that PE32+ is just identifying what it is by its name classification only
(as a 32 bit program executable). I looked it up and found the + means 64
bit version. Interesting!

But it's basically "just" an EXE file. So it's ultimately the compiled
program's machine code that makes up the program, as I see it And THAT
(the nature and structure of EXE file) is a pretty involved story, including
links to DLL libraries and a host of other stuff.

And so "apps" has basically got to be some sort of executable file that runs
on the Android OS, right? Something that was previously compiled for the
Linux OS. Just not an "exe" or a "com" file, but something analogous to
that, I expect.

I don't know much about Linux. I dabbled with it briefly using Cinnamon
Mint, but found it just wasn't worth all the hassle, considering all the
stuff I've already got set up by using Windows. But, that said, it was an
"interesting", if not sometimes taxing, experience. I can see if somebody
had the motivation and inclination, they could be content with it for many,
if not most, things.


  #51  
Old January 12th 19, 02:19 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,181
Default Win XP to Win 10?

Bill in Co wrote:
Paul wrote:
Bill in Co wrote:
Steve Hayes wrote:
On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 12:45:05 -0700, "Bill in Co"
[email protected] wrote:

Was just curious how many had taken the plunge and were happy about it.
I don't have any experience with Windows 10, but from what I can
gather, you "just" have to get used to its new interface, the use of
"apps" (which I assume are nearly the same thing as what we used to
call programs), the forced MS updates, and that many of the older
programs can't be successfully imported. Oh, and that you can get a
classic start menu without tiles. (I'm not sure what the distinction
is between apps and programs on Windows 10). Is all that about correct?

"Apps" is short for "Applications Programs", as opposed to systems
programs and utilities.

Apps are what you use your computer FOR, as opposed to programs that
enable the keyboard to communicate with CPU, the screen to display
stuff, things to be written to the disk drives etc.
OK, so basically what we used to call our useful software programs in the
pre-Windows 10 era is now called "apps", and it's just a change in
terminology. And those "apps" are still just exe files.

I'm used to the term apps only for Android devices, where that
terminology is standard.

It's pretty hard to tell what the software is made of.

For example, I "dump" an EXE file in Program Files\WindowsApps
and the header portion has a "PE32+" signature, while the
tail end is... text. It's a manifest of stuff to launch or a
set of dependencies or something.

A utility that would normally identify it, calls it "PE32+",
which is disingenuous. As that's not what it is.

Paul


So that PE32+ is just identifying what it is by its name classification only
(as a 32 bit program executable). I looked it up and found the + means 64
bit version. Interesting!

But it's basically "just" an EXE file. So it's ultimately the compiled
program's machine code that makes up the program, as I see it And THAT
(the nature and structure of EXE file) is a pretty involved story, including
links to DLL libraries and a host of other stuff.

And so "apps" has basically got to be some sort of executable file that runs
on the Android OS, right? Something that was previously compiled for the
Linux OS. Just not an "exe" or a "com" file, but something analogous to
that, I expect.

I don't know much about Linux. I dabbled with it briefly using Cinnamon
Mint, but found it just wasn't worth all the hassle, considering all the
stuff I've already got set up by using Windows. But, that said, it was an
"interesting", if not sometimes taxing, experience. I can see if somebody
had the motivation and inclination, they could be content with it for many,
if not most, things.


No, I was referring to me checking Windows 10. Windows 10
has PE32/PE32+ for traditional "win32" applications. Those
have perfectly conventional header signatures plus binary blobs
in the body of the file.

The file I found in WindowsApps, is a part of a Metro app. The
file happened to end in EXE, but if you go to Start : Run and
"execute" it, it fails to start. And that's because, the body of
it doesn't contain what we think it contains.

Instead, Windows 10 Metro Apps are "launched". One
of the launching methods is "explorer shell:string-o-stuff"
and the manifest of the program is examined and all the
bits and pieces loaded somehow. There's a claim the "app" is
insulated in some way, so it cannot write in arbitrary places.
And even if it could, the App is only "downloaded" from the
Windows Store. If you reinstall the OS, even the "purchased"
Apps from the Windows Store are re-downloaded and put in the
WindowsApps folder. It's a curated garden, rather than an
"install from .msi" kind of thing.

Portions of this environment were also supposed to be HTML/JS,
but my attempts to examine it so far, aren't turning up any such
materials, neither any kind of "ZIP" or "JAR" containing
stuff like that.

It remains a mystery (for me), as to what all the
component parts are.

Microsoft has also made attempts to make simplified programming
tools, so you can make your own "App". Basically little better than
a "scrapbook with pictures" in a sense. But these efforts come and
go, and I don't know if any of those are still running (web based).
You will undoubtedly also find tools in the latest Visual Studio
for this. (There is an option when you start a new project,
to generate a "skeleton" program with the appropriate overheads
for creating your own program of a particular type.) Another way to
study how the App works then, would be to study the source created
by the App Generator (an empty App that doesn't do anything).

Other environments use Javascript, Python, and C, just to name
a few. With the odd case of Java (for programs that run on multiple
platforms). Java runs inside your BluRay player.

Paul
  #52  
Old January 12th 19, 03:29 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default Win XP to Win 10?

Paul wrote:
Bill in Co wrote:
Paul wrote:
Bill in Co wrote:
Steve Hayes wrote:
On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 12:45:05 -0700, "Bill in Co"
[email protected] wrote:

Was just curious how many had taken the plunge and were happy about
it. I don't have any experience with Windows 10, but from what I can
gather, you "just" have to get used to its new interface, the use of
"apps" (which I assume are nearly the same thing as what we used to
call programs), the forced MS updates, and that many of the older
programs can't be successfully imported. Oh, and that you can get a
classic start menu without tiles. (I'm not sure what the distinction
is between apps and programs on Windows 10). Is all that about
correct?
"Apps" is short for "Applications Programs", as opposed to systems
programs and utilities.

Apps are what you use your computer FOR, as opposed to programs that
enable the keyboard to communicate with CPU, the screen to display
stuff, things to be written to the disk drives etc.
OK, so basically what we used to call our useful software programs in
the pre-Windows 10 era is now called "apps", and it's just a change in
terminology. And those "apps" are still just exe files.

I'm used to the term apps only for Android devices, where that
terminology is standard.
It's pretty hard to tell what the software is made of.

For example, I "dump" an EXE file in Program Files\WindowsApps
and the header portion has a "PE32+" signature, while the
tail end is... text. It's a manifest of stuff to launch or a
set of dependencies or something.

A utility that would normally identify it, calls it "PE32+",
which is disingenuous. As that's not what it is.

Paul


So that PE32+ is just identifying what it is by its name classification
only (as a 32 bit program executable). I looked it up and found the +
means 64 bit version. Interesting!

But it's basically "just" an EXE file. So it's ultimately the compiled
program's machine code that makes up the program, as I see it And THAT
(the nature and structure of EXE file) is a pretty involved story,
including links to DLL libraries and a host of other stuff.

And so "apps" has basically got to be some sort of executable file that
runs on the Android OS, right? Something that was previously compiled
for the Linux OS. Just not an "exe" or a "com" file, but something
analogous to that, I expect.

I don't know much about Linux. I dabbled with it briefly using Cinnamon
Mint, but found it just wasn't worth all the hassle, considering all the
stuff I've already got set up by using Windows. But, that said, it was
an "interesting", if not sometimes taxing, experience. I can see if
somebody had the motivation and inclination, they could be content with
it for many, if not most, things.


No, I was referring to me checking Windows 10. Windows 10
has PE32/PE32+ for traditional "win32" applications. Those
have perfectly conventional header signatures plus binary blobs
in the body of the file.

The file I found in WindowsApps, is a part of a Metro app. The
file happened to end in EXE, but if you go to Start : Run and
"execute" it, it fails to start. And that's because, the body of
it doesn't contain what we think it contains.

Instead, Windows 10 Metro Apps are "launched". One
of the launching methods is "explorer shell:string-o-stuff"
and the manifest of the program is examined and all the
bits and pieces loaded somehow. There's a claim the "app" is
insulated in some way, so it cannot write in arbitrary places.
And even if it could, the App is only "downloaded" from the
Windows Store. If you reinstall the OS, even the "purchased"
Apps from the Windows Store are re-downloaded and put in the
WindowsApps folder. It's a curated garden, rather than an
"install from .msi" kind of thing.

Portions of this environment were also supposed to be HTML/JS,
but my attempts to examine it so far, aren't turning up any such
materials, neither any kind of "ZIP" or "JAR" containing
stuff like that.

It remains a mystery (for me), as to what all the
component parts are.

Microsoft has also made attempts to make simplified programming
tools, so you can make your own "App". Basically little better than
a "scrapbook with pictures" in a sense. But these efforts come and
go, and I don't know if any of those are still running (web based).
You will undoubtedly also find tools in the latest Visual Studio
for this. (There is an option when you start a new project,
to generate a "skeleton" program with the appropriate overheads
for creating your own program of a particular type.) Another way to
study how the App works then, would be to study the source created
by the App Generator (an empty App that doesn't do anything).

Other environments use Javascript, Python, and C, just to name
a few. With the odd case of Java (for programs that run on multiple
platforms). Java runs inside your BluRay player.

Paul


So I was "a bit" confused when I read all of this, and then also read that
MS is pushing these "Universal Windows Platform" Apps that will run on all
compatible MS devices (personal computers, tablets, smartphones, Xbox, etc)
on the Wiki site. Wow, what a revolutionary concept (to me) So I guess the
UWP Apps are basically the same thing as the Metro Style Apps you mentioned
above. And these apps use the "APPX" file format. Interesting, albeit a bit
confusing it seems if you want to look into it..

Well, let me see if I understand this much, at least.

So does that mean that there are two types of "programs" running on a
Windows 10 computer? One class of programs that uses the old exe style of
code (used perhaps solely for the OS related stuff), and another class of
programs (the apps you can buy) that use this universal app format thing?
(I think Steve Hayes might have been hinting at this too, but I'm not sure).
It's still a bit confusing.


  #53  
Old January 12th 19, 11:09 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,181
Default Win XP to Win 10?

Bill in Co wrote:


So I was "a bit" confused when I read all of this, and then also read that
MS is pushing these "Universal Windows Platform" Apps that will run on all
compatible MS devices (personal computers, tablets, smartphones, Xbox, etc)
on the Wiki site. Wow, what a revolutionary concept (to me) So I guess the
UWP Apps are basically the same thing as the Metro Style Apps you mentioned
above. And these apps use the "APPX" file format. Interesting, albeit a bit
confusing it seems if you want to look into it..

Well, let me see if I understand this much, at least.

So does that mean that there are two types of "programs" running on a
Windows 10 computer? One class of programs that uses the old exe style of
code (used perhaps solely for the OS related stuff), and another class of
programs (the apps you can buy) that use this universal app format thing?
(I think Steve Hayes might have been hinting at this too, but I'm not sure).
It's still a bit confusing.


I think we can safely say "there are at least two program formats".

Traditional executables still run.

There is at least one other type.

The first part of such analysis requires tools that can
positively identify each file type. And the funny looking
EXEs that don't execute, are the first mystery.

One way to start the analysis, would be to use ProcMon
and see what files get "touched" when an "App" starts.
You can see file reads and writes with ProcMon.

Paul

  #54  
Old January 12th 19, 04:58 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Tim Slattery[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 188
Default Win XP to Win 10?

"Bill in Co" [email protected] wrote:


OK, so basically what we used to call our useful software programs in the
pre-Windows 10 era is now called "apps", and it's just a change in
terminology. And those "apps" are still just exe files.


True

I'm used to the term apps only for Android devices, where that terminology
is standard.


AFAIK, the "app" terminology started with smart phones. Before that,
we used applications.

--
Tim Slattery
tim at risingdove dot com
  #55  
Old January 12th 19, 07:24 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Steve Hayes[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,042
Default Win XP to Win 10?

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 13:00:28 -0700, "Bill in Co"
[email protected] wrote:

Steve Hayes wrote:
"Apps" is short for "Applications Programs", as opposed to systems
programs and utilities.

Apps are what you use your computer FOR, as opposed to programs that
enable the keyboard to communicate with CPU, the screen to display
stuff, things to be written to the disk drives etc.


OK, so basically what we used to call our useful software programs in the
pre-Windows 10 era is now called "apps", and it's just a change in
terminology. And those "apps" are still just exe files.

I'm used to the term apps only for Android devices, where that terminology
is standard.


"Applications" was in use long before Windows or Androis were
invented. I remember it from 1982 or thereabouts, in the days of CP/M

And most of them were .com files.


--
Ignore the following - it's spammers for spambot fodder.













  #56  
Old January 12th 19, 10:10 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
arlen holder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default Win XP to Win 10?

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 12:45:05 -0700, Bill in Co wrote:

Was just curious how many had taken the plunge and were happy about it.


I went from SunOS/Solaris/Mac - Win95 - Win2K - WinXP - Win7 -Win10
and can say that there is nothing different in extremus.

In fact, for Windows, there was a famous thread last year or so where we
valiently tried to find just 10 "things" you could do in Win10 that you
couldn't do in any of the other Windows. As I recall, we didn't even make
10, or, maybe we made it only barely so. (We can dig it up if you don't
believe me.)

On the other hand, the "menu" GUI is, by most (incorrect) accounts,
DIFFERENT, where, it turns out, that the WinXP cascade accordion menu is so
ingrained in Windows, that, literally, and I mean literally (the same exact
files!) can be copied over from Windows XP to Windows 10, and then "pinned"
to the task bar, and voila!

You have the same cascaded Windows XP menus on Windows 10.
Literally the same files! (Yes. The actual files are exactly the same!)

Of course, I'm (likely one of) the most well organized people you will ever
meet in your entire life (when it comes to Windows menus anyway), so for
me, copying the EXACT FILES worked perfectly - but - for 99.9% of the
people in the world, the exact files won't work.

But the EXACT SAME PROCESS does work.

If we want, we can dig up the tutorials I wrote, which contain all the
details, but this thread doesn't seem to warrant those details.

The point is twofold, and is very IMPORTANT and STRATEGIC:
POINT 1: All Windows do the same stuff (Win10 is no more powerful than XP).
POINT 2: The WinXP cascade menus NEVER LEFT being native in Windows.

If we must, I can delve into POINT 3, which I'm still formulating, but
where experts like Paul have helped me get the idiotically designed Windows
10 default left side (heterodox) alphabetical menus and the even more
idiotically designed Windows 10 default right side (orthodox) tiled menus
working.

After spending months honing them both, I deleted them in their entirety in
my latest Windows 10 incarnation, falling back on the old WinXP style
cascade menus and folder menus (pinned Quick Access) as being more
efficient (non touch screen application).

So putting those three summary points together, here's my take:
POINT 1: You can do anything you need to do in any Windows version
POINT 2: Contrary to public perception, WinXP menus never left Windows
POINT 3: The "new" heterodox/orthodox Win10 menus are an abomination
  #57  
Old January 13th 19, 03:04 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Tim Slattery[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 188
Default Win XP to Win 10?

Steve Hayes wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 13:00:28 -0700, "Bill in Co"
[email protected] wrote:

Steve Hayes wrote:
"Apps" is short for "Applications Programs", as opposed to systems
programs and utilities.

Apps are what you use your computer FOR, as opposed to programs that
enable the keyboard to communicate with CPU, the screen to display
stuff, things to be written to the disk drives etc.


OK, so basically what we used to call our useful software programs in the
pre-Windows 10 era is now called "apps", and it's just a change in
terminology. And those "apps" are still just exe files.

I'm used to the term apps only for Android devices, where that terminology
is standard.


"Applications" was in use long before Windows or Androis were
invented. I remember it from 1982 or thereabouts, in the days of CP/M

And most of them were .com files. I don't remember the term "apps" until smartphones.


*.com files were the simplest executables possible. They were 16-bit
code that was simply loaded into RAM and executed, without any kind of
editing. They used the "tiny" memory model, which meant (IIRC) 64KB of
code and 64KB of data.) Modern executables (exe files) contain
relocatable code, as well as menus, cursors, bitmaps, and language to
notify the loader of required DLLs.

--
Tim Slattery
tim at risingdove dot com
 




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