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#31
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
KristleBawl wrote:
Rockinghorse Winner expressed an opinion: "Bill Yanaire, writes: Anyway, most here don't give a RATS ASS about that INFERIOR Ubuntu. If you want to use it go ahead but we don't need or want to hear about it. Maybe I should report when I take a ****. Just a Linux lurker on this group, and what the origninal poster did was just stupid, trolling and inexcusable. If I were you I'd killfile him, ignore him and continue to do what you've been doing: discuss Windows7. It's folks like that that give Linux a black eye. Carry on... I guess you guys don't really read what you comment on. :-D I'm a happy Vista user and I do not use *nix, at all! As far as I'm concerned,--- Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period.--- Not true, I have many clients happily using Linux of one flavor or another, who, (respectfully), are basically clueless users. Once set up, there isn't really much to using it. Pretty much the same as Winders in some ways. Clueless people are just that, "CLUELESS" it doesn't really matter WHAT OS is involved I have found. Clueless is clueless, regardless. It is the TEACHING, that matters. Once I have taught users on THEIR CHOICE of OS, they move right along. It makes NO difference which OS they choose. This bit of one OS being better than the other is hogwash. It is ALL about the needs, wants, education, and not solely the OS "PERIOD." If this were a *real* Window 7 newsgroup, I would have made a better subject line in my first post, instead of pasting the article title. This IS a "real" Win7 news group. What a crack-up.. Whatever, you posted pro Ubuntu in an MS orientated group basically, and are now backpedaling. ..Unnecessarily I might add. BOTH OS's have good points and bad points. I happily use them both for different reasons, no need to take sides. Oh, and "A reason to try Ubuntu for myself one day."(?) That is just too funny. Apparently you have some expertise, yet you haven't downloaded a LIVE ISO of some Linux flavor or another and ACTUALLY checked it out? ...Yet you have an opinion that, "Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period."(?) How can you possibly state that, having not tried it? Gimme a break! I tested Win7 from beta through RC, and like it a lot, in fact MUCH better than the EXPENSIVE Vista Ultimate I purchased. (Which recently crashed with the dreaded BLACK Screen of Death - KSOD) However, I really like the Linux I have as well, so I use them BOTH for my purposes, and it works out very well. G'day |
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#32
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
Muad'Dib wrote:
KristleBawl wrote: Rockinghorse Winner expressed an opinion: "Bill Yanaire, writes: Anyway, most here don't give a RATS ASS about that INFERIOR Ubuntu. If you want to use it go ahead but we don't need or want to hear about it. Maybe I should report when I take a ****. Just a Linux lurker on this group, and what the origninal poster did was just stupid, trolling and inexcusable. If I were you I'd killfile him, ignore him and continue to do what you've been doing: discuss Windows7. It's folks like that that give Linux a black eye. Carry on... I guess you guys don't really read what you comment on. :-D I'm a happy Vista user and I do not use *nix, at all! As far as I'm concerned,--- Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period.--- Not true, I have many clients happily using Linux of one flavor or another, who, (respectfully), are basically clueless users. Once set up, there isn't really much to using it. Pretty much the same as Winders in some ways. Clueless people are just that, "CLUELESS" it doesn't really matter WHAT OS is involved I have found. Clueless is clueless, regardless. It is the TEACHING, that matters. Once I have taught users on THEIR CHOICE of OS, they move right along. It makes NO difference which OS they choose. This bit of one OS being better than the other is hogwash. It is ALL about the needs, wants, education, and not solely the OS "PERIOD." If this were a *real* Window 7 newsgroup, I would have made a better subject line in my first post, instead of pasting the article title. This IS a "real" Win7 news group. What a crack-up.. Whatever, you posted pro Ubuntu in an MS orientated group basically, and are now backpedaling. ..Unnecessarily I might add. BOTH OS's have good points and bad points. I happily use them both for different reasons, no need to take sides. Oh, and "A reason to try Ubuntu for myself one day."(?) That is just too funny. Apparently you have some expertise, yet you haven't downloaded a LIVE ISO of some Linux flavor or another and ACTUALLY checked it out? ..Yet you have an opinion that, "Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period."(?) How can you possibly state that, having not tried it? Gimme a break! I tested Win7 from beta through RC, and like it a lot, in fact MUCH better than the EXPENSIVE Vista Ultimate I purchased. (Which recently crashed with the dreaded BLACK Screen of Death - KSOD) However, I really like the Linux I have as well, so I use them BOTH for my purposes, and it works out very well. G'day I agree 100%. Why not have the best of both worlds? -- Alias |
#33
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
Alias wrote:
Muad'Dib wrote: KristleBawl wrote: Rockinghorse Winner expressed an opinion: "Bill Yanaire, writes: Anyway, most here don't give a RATS ASS about that INFERIOR Ubuntu. If you want to use it go ahead but we don't need or want to hear about it. Maybe I should report when I take a ****. Just a Linux lurker on this group, and what the origninal poster did was just stupid, trolling and inexcusable. If I were you I'd killfile him, ignore him and continue to do what you've been doing: discuss Windows7. It's folks like that that give Linux a black eye. Carry on... I guess you guys don't really read what you comment on. :-D I'm a happy Vista user and I do not use *nix, at all! As far as I'm concerned,--- Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period.--- Not true, I have many clients happily using Linux of one flavor or another, who, (respectfully), are basically clueless users. Once set up, there isn't really much to using it. Pretty much the same as Winders in some ways. Clueless people are just that, "CLUELESS" it doesn't really matter WHAT OS is involved I have found. Clueless is clueless, regardless. It is the TEACHING, that matters. Once I have taught users on THEIR CHOICE of OS, they move right along. It makes NO difference which OS they choose. This bit of one OS being better than the other is hogwash. It is ALL about the needs, wants, education, and not solely the OS "PERIOD." If this were a *real* Window 7 newsgroup, I would have made a better subject line in my first post, instead of pasting the article title. This IS a "real" Win7 news group. What a crack-up.. Whatever, you posted pro Ubuntu in an MS orientated group basically, and are now backpedaling. ..Unnecessarily I might add. BOTH OS's have good points and bad points. I happily use them both for different reasons, no need to take sides. Oh, and "A reason to try Ubuntu for myself one day."(?) That is just too funny. Apparently you have some expertise, yet you haven't downloaded a LIVE ISO of some Linux flavor or another and ACTUALLY checked it out? ..Yet you have an opinion that, "Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period."(?) How can you possibly state that, having not tried it? Gimme a break! I tested Win7 from beta through RC, and like it a lot, in fact MUCH better than the EXPENSIVE Vista Ultimate I purchased. (Which recently crashed with the dreaded BLACK Screen of Death - KSOD) However, I really like the Linux I have as well, so I use them BOTH for my purposes, and it works out very well. G'day I agree 100%. Why not have the best of both worlds? Yep, that's my soap box. They can all say what they want, but I know better, as do my clients be it Winders OR Linux. G'day |
#34
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
Lee Waun wrote:
"KristleBawl" wrote in message ... Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual http://lifehacker.com/5441494/ubuntu...ginners-manual Finally, someone decided to create something like a help file for newbies! If this continues to be expended, it might actually give me a reason to try Ubuntu for myself one day. Until I can recommend it to my friends and relatives for everyday use, because I have to fix their user-created problems, there's no reason to check it out. Before anyone flames this message, remember, this is an *alt* group, *not* a support group. ;-P Take your ubunta and shove it. This is a windows group bitch. -- What if I'm a figment of my own imagination? KristleBawl's Taglines by http://tagzilla.mozdev.org Localizations by http://www.babelzilla.org/ Get Involved Pretty harsh dude, but then what the OP posted begged or at least attracted adverse responses I suppose. LOL ..But really, does one need to get so riled? After all, this IS Usenet... New to it? LOL Ever experienced the good ol' days of BBS, 300 baud and those flame-wars? (The beginning) BIG LOL "Nothing to see here, move along." (Nothing NEW to see here that is! Hahaha!) G'day |
#35
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
"Muad'Dib" wrote in message ... Lee Waun wrote: snipLOL Ever experienced the good ol' days of BBS, 300 baud and those flame-wars? (The beginning) BIG LOL "Nothing to see here, move along." (Nothing NEW to see here that is! Hahaha!) G'day Flame wars at 300 baud did one of two things- they either died the first day from the participants getting tired of waiting to see a response, or they went on for weeks on end. There didn't seem to be any happy medium. Phew! Those were the days LOL!! -- SC Tom |
#36
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
Enkidu expressed an opinion:
KristleBawl wrote: I'm a happy Vista user and I do not use *nix, at all! As far as I'm concerned, Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period. There once was a talking Barbie - one of her blurbs was "Math is hard!" Lots of women took offense at this, feeling that it was typecasting girls as too dumb to do math. Somehow, I don't think you meant to say that the vast majority of Windows users are too dumb to figure out how to use Ubuntu. I said *home* users, as in retired persons, busy people who do *not* use computers at work, disabled individuals of all ages, even the stereotyped stay-at-home moms. In my experience, many home users are significantly less tech savvy than college students and business users who also happen to have computers at home. Average *home* users often play games and use the Internet, and might even use a checkbook program instead of traditional paper. They are more likely to use webmail because they don't know how to use an email client, not because they actually travel or need to check mail in more than one location. Most have never heard of Usenet. When something goes wrong with the computer, they often can't afford to just take it in for repair right away, so it waits, because they don't have any compelling reason to get it fixed sooner. In this setting, the computer is less important than the television but more important than the toaster. These people are not *dumb*, as you put it, just under-motivated to learn how to properly use the computer to its full potential, simply because they have no need of actual computing power. Other issues are more important to them, such as childrearing, medical problems, or any number of hobbies. Just because some people don't know much about computers, do not assume they aren't experts at such things as gardening, sports, crafts or any other interest that keeps them away from the computer. -- Freedom's a state of mind - pure creativity - even in captivity. KristleBawl's Taglines by http://tagzilla.mozdev.org Localizations by http://www.babelzilla.org/ Get Involved |
#37
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
No Spam expressed an opinion:
I see that he/she/it is still yapping and whining after that ass whopping that he got from me. I kill filed him right after I posted my last message to him, I expected that he would have posted nasty flames, and he probably did. I have not seen him posting a single fact or rely on facts in his posts which had nothing but garbage and should go to linux advocacy newsgroup where retards like him live. I suggest that everyone kill files that troll or ignores him, once he is ignored he will go away. Who are you talking about? -- A yawn is a silent shout. - Chesterton KristleBawl's Taglines by http://tagzilla.mozdev.org Localizations by http://www.babelzilla.org/ Get Involved |
#38
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
No Spam expressed an opinion:
In wrote: If this were a *real* Window 7 newsgroup, I would have made a better subject line in my first post, instead of pasting the article title. Even worse excuse. This news group is alt therefore I can do whatever I want, this newsgroup is not a real Windows 7 newsgroup, this newsgroup is not properly named, blah blah blah. Facts are facts. The entire alt.* hierarchy was invented because no one liked the idea that free.* really meant freedom of speech. Obviously you missed the sarcasm in my initial post, too. -- Adults are obsolete children. - Dr. Seuss KristleBawl's Taglines by http://tagzilla.mozdev.org Localizations by http://www.babelzilla.org/ Get Involved |
#39
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
KristleBawl pulled this Usenet boner:
I'm a happy Vista user and I do not use *nix, at all! As far as I'm concerned, Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period. Speaking from a real hard base of experience, there, eh? -- You're being followed. Cut out the hanky-panky for a few days. |
#40
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
Lee Waun expressed an opinion:
"KristleBawl" wrote... Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual http://lifehacker.com/5441494/ubuntu...ginners-manual Finally, someone decided to create something like a help file for newbies! If this continues to be expended, it might actually give me a reason to try Ubuntu for myself one day. Until I can recommend it to my friends and relatives for everyday use, because I have to fix their user-created problems, there's no reason to check it out. Before anyone flames this message, remember, this is an *alt* group, *not* a support group. ;-P Take your ubunta and shove it. This is a windows group bitch. Nice! LOL I basically insulted Ubuntu and /nobody/ got it? :-D Doesn't anyone actually *read* anymore? -- And remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Confucius KristleBawl's Taglines by http://tagzilla.mozdev.org Localizations by http://www.babelzilla.org/ Get Involved |
#41
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
Muad'Dib expressed an opinion:
Lee Waun wrote: Take your ubunta and shove it. This is a windows group bitch. Pretty harsh dude, but then what the OP posted begged or at least attracted adverse responses I suppose. LOL ..But really, does one need to get so riled? After all, this IS Usenet... New to it? LOL Ever experienced the good ol' days of BBS, 300 baud and those flame-wars? (The beginning) BIG LOL "Nothing to see here, move along." (Nothing NEW to see here that is! Hahaha!) G'day In two words; Thank You! ;-) -- Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular. KristleBawl's Taglines by http://tagzilla.mozdev.org Localizations by http://www.babelzilla.org/ Get Involved |
#42
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
Muad'Dib expressed an opinion:
Not true, I have many clients happily using Linux of one flavor or another, who, (respectfully), are basically clueless users. Once set up, there isn't really much to using it. Pretty much the same as Winders in some ways. Clueless people are just that, "CLUELESS" it doesn't really matter WHAT OS is involved I have found. Clueless is clueless, regardless. It is the TEACHING, that matters. Once I have taught users on THEIR CHOICE of OS, they move right along. It makes NO difference which OS they choose. This bit of one OS being better than the other is hogwash. It is ALL about the needs, wants, education, and not solely the OS "PERIOD." Sure, in a hands-on teaching situation, with time and patience, it can work. I can't be there to show them, I have to talk them through it. If this were a *real* Window 7 newsgroup, I would have made a better subject line in my first post, instead of pasting the article title. This IS a "real" Win7 news group. What a crack-up.. Whatever, you posted pro Ubuntu in an MS orientated group basically, and are now backpedaling. ..Unnecessarily I might add. BOTH OS's have good points and bad points. I happily use them both for different reasons, no need to take sides. Oh, and "A reason to try Ubuntu for myself one day."(?) That is just too funny. Apparently you have some expertise, yet you haven't downloaded a LIVE ISO of some Linux flavor or another and ACTUALLY checked it out? ..Yet you have an opinion that, "Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period."(?) How can you possibly state that, having not tried it? Gimme a break! I tested Win7 from beta through RC, and like it a lot, in fact MUCH better than the EXPENSIVE Vista Ultimate I purchased. (Which recently crashed with the dreaded BLACK Screen of Death - KSOD) However, I really like the Linux I have as well, so I use them BOTH for my purposes, and it works out very well. G'day No, I haven't. I've only touched one demo machine at the local store. I have no idea which version or flavor it was, only that I couldn't guess what the program names meant in the list of choices. I didn't like the idea of having to either download them or go online and research it to find out whether or not I was even interested in the programs. No backpedaling involved, I simply erred by making my sarcasm too subtle. I either overestimated the reading ability of this group or underestimated the blinders to any topic that is controversial. Please explain how my intention to *not* use Ubuntu, as clearly stated in my original post, equates to advocacy. This should be good. ;-) Like Microsoft, I prefer to cater to the lowest common denominator, so instead of taking the time to either talk a relative through the process of downloading an *.ISO and what to do with it, or doing it myself and mailing them out, I allow them the comfort and familiarity of the OS they already have, because some people really fear change. -- Taglines temporarily disabled for routine maintenance. KristleBawl's Taglines by http://tagzilla.mozdev.org Localizations by http://www.babelzilla.org/ Get Involved |
#43
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
Muad'Dib wrote:
KristleBawl wrote: Rockinghorse Winner expressed an opinion: "Bill Yanaire, writes: Anyway, most here don't give a RATS ASS about that INFERIOR Ubuntu. If you want to use it go ahead but we don't need or want to hear about it. Maybe I should report when I take a ****. Just a Linux lurker on this group, and what the origninal poster did was just stupid, trolling and inexcusable. If I were you I'd killfile him, ignore him and continue to do what you've been doing: discuss Windows7. It's folks like that that give Linux a black eye. Carry on... I guess you guys don't really read what you comment on. :-D I'm a happy Vista user and I do not use *nix, at all! As far as I'm concerned,--- Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period.--- Not true, I have many clients happily using Linux of one flavor or another, who, (respectfully), are basically clueless users. Once set up, there isn't really much to using it. Pretty much the same as Winders in some ways. Clueless people are just that, "CLUELESS" it doesn't really matter WHAT OS is involved I have found. Clueless is clueless, regardless. It is the TEACHING, that matters. Once I have taught users on THEIR CHOICE of OS, they move right along. It makes NO difference which OS they choose. This bit of one OS being better than the other is hogwash. It is ALL about the needs, wants, education, and not solely the OS "PERIOD." If this were a *real* Window 7 newsgroup, I would have made a better subject line in my first post, instead of pasting the article title. This IS a "real" Win7 news group. What a crack-up.. Whatever, you posted pro Ubuntu in an MS orientated group basically, and are now backpedaling. ..Unnecessarily I might add. BOTH OS's have good points and bad points. I happily use them both for different reasons, no need to take sides. Oh, and "A reason to try Ubuntu for myself one day."(?) That is just too funny. Apparently you have some expertise, yet you haven't downloaded a LIVE ISO of some Linux flavor or another and ACTUALLY checked it out? ..Yet you have an opinion that, "Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period."(?) How can you possibly state that, having not tried it? Gimme a break! I tested Win7 from beta through RC, and like it a lot, in fact MUCH better than the EXPENSIVE Vista Ultimate I purchased. (Which recently crashed with the dreaded BLACK Screen of Death - KSOD) However, I really like the Linux I have as well, so I use them BOTH for my purposes, and it works out very well. G'day Lets cut the crap. Tell us what you can do with linux than can't be done with Windows...oh and please spare us the "safer web surfing bull****" ok? Well...? |
#44
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
Alias wrote:
Muad'Dib wrote: KristleBawl wrote: Rockinghorse Winner expressed an opinion: "Bill Yanaire, writes: Anyway, most here don't give a RATS ASS about that INFERIOR Ubuntu. If you want to use it go ahead but we don't need or want to hear about it. Maybe I should report when I take a ****. Just a Linux lurker on this group, and what the origninal poster did was just stupid, trolling and inexcusable. If I were you I'd killfile him, ignore him and continue to do what you've been doing: discuss Windows7. It's folks like that that give Linux a black eye. Carry on... I guess you guys don't really read what you comment on. :-D I'm a happy Vista user and I do not use *nix, at all! As far as I'm concerned,--- Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period.--- Not true, I have many clients happily using Linux of one flavor or another, who, (respectfully), are basically clueless users. Once set up, there isn't really much to using it. Pretty much the same as Winders in some ways. Clueless people are just that, "CLUELESS" it doesn't really matter WHAT OS is involved I have found. Clueless is clueless, regardless. It is the TEACHING, that matters. Once I have taught users on THEIR CHOICE of OS, they move right along. It makes NO difference which OS they choose. This bit of one OS being better than the other is hogwash. It is ALL about the needs, wants, education, and not solely the OS "PERIOD." If this were a *real* Window 7 newsgroup, I would have made a better subject line in my first post, instead of pasting the article title. This IS a "real" Win7 news group. What a crack-up.. Whatever, you posted pro Ubuntu in an MS orientated group basically, and are now backpedaling. ..Unnecessarily I might add. BOTH OS's have good points and bad points. I happily use them both for different reasons, no need to take sides. Oh, and "A reason to try Ubuntu for myself one day."(?) That is just too funny. Apparently you have some expertise, yet you haven't downloaded a LIVE ISO of some Linux flavor or another and ACTUALLY checked it out? ..Yet you have an opinion that, "Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period."(?) How can you possibly state that, having not tried it? Gimme a break! I tested Win7 from beta through RC, and like it a lot, in fact MUCH better than the EXPENSIVE Vista Ultimate I purchased. (Which recently crashed with the dreaded BLACK Screen of Death - KSOD) However, I really like the Linux I have as well, so I use them BOTH for my purposes, and it works out very well. G'day I agree 100%. Why not have the best of both worlds? You keep saying that but I've yet to come across anything that can't be done using Windows that can be done on linux. Whereas we all know you can't run most games on linux. So you can do everything on Windows but not everything on linux. So why would anyone need two computers or two OS's when one (Windows) will do everything? Oh and spare us the "safe surfing bull**** routine" ok. |
#45
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Ubuntu 10.04 to Include Beginner's Manual
Frank wrote:
Alias wrote: Muad'Dib wrote: KristleBawl wrote: Rockinghorse Winner expressed an opinion: "Bill Yanaire, writes: Anyway, most here don't give a RATS ASS about that INFERIOR Ubuntu. If you want to use it go ahead but we don't need or want to hear about it. Maybe I should report when I take a ****. Just a Linux lurker on this group, and what the origninal poster did was just stupid, trolling and inexcusable. If I were you I'd killfile him, ignore him and continue to do what you've been doing: discuss Windows7. It's folks like that that give Linux a black eye. Carry on... I guess you guys don't really read what you comment on. :-D I'm a happy Vista user and I do not use *nix, at all! As far as I'm concerned,--- Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period.--- Not true, I have many clients happily using Linux of one flavor or another, who, (respectfully), are basically clueless users. Once set up, there isn't really much to using it. Pretty much the same as Winders in some ways. Clueless people are just that, "CLUELESS" it doesn't really matter WHAT OS is involved I have found. Clueless is clueless, regardless. It is the TEACHING, that matters. Once I have taught users on THEIR CHOICE of OS, they move right along. It makes NO difference which OS they choose. This bit of one OS being better than the other is hogwash. It is ALL about the needs, wants, education, and not solely the OS "PERIOD." If this were a *real* Window 7 newsgroup, I would have made a better subject line in my first post, instead of pasting the article title. This IS a "real" Win7 news group. What a crack-up.. Whatever, you posted pro Ubuntu in an MS orientated group basically, and are now backpedaling. ..Unnecessarily I might add. BOTH OS's have good points and bad points. I happily use them both for different reasons, no need to take sides. Oh, and "A reason to try Ubuntu for myself one day."(?) That is just too funny. Apparently you have some expertise, yet you haven't downloaded a LIVE ISO of some Linux flavor or another and ACTUALLY checked it out? ..Yet you have an opinion that, "Ubuntu is not easy enough for the vast majority of Windows home users. Period."(?) How can you possibly state that, having not tried it? Gimme a break! I tested Win7 from beta through RC, and like it a lot, in fact MUCH better than the EXPENSIVE Vista Ultimate I purchased. (Which recently crashed with the dreaded BLACK Screen of Death - KSOD) However, I really like the Linux I have as well, so I use them BOTH for my purposes, and it works out very well. G'day I agree 100%. Why not have the best of both worlds? You keep saying that but I've yet to come across anything that can't be done using Windows that can be done on linux. Whereas we all know you can't run most games on linux. So you can do everything on Windows but not everything on linux. So why would anyone need two computers or two OS's when one (Windows) will do everything? Oh and spare us the "safe surfing bull**** routine" ok. Stability. Safe surfing. Much easier to update and updates come when ready not when it's "that time of the month". Much easier to install programs Bulletproof compared to Windows malware-wise Many Linux programs are NOT made for Windows. Evolution, for example. Nautilus, ssh and One Cloud are others. Faster USB file transfers Faster Internet speeds Frank doesn't use it. -- Alias |
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