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#31
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cloud OS?
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 11:13:08 +0000, mechanic
wrote: Pity Android phones are so hard to network (compared to Apple iPhones); I can`t agree. Windows Homegroup networking is so much more of a problem Avoid homegroup networking and then networking with androids to Windows PCs becomes easy: https://www.howtogeek.com/191378/how...ad-and-iphone/ Regards M. |
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#32
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cloud OS?
"Michael Logies" wrote
| No, a Chromebit. That is a full PC in the size of an USB-stick, with a | big monitor and a big keyboard and mouse attached for using web apps | (from Google and others). | Ah. I didn't know about those. At the CNEt review page it says 1.8 GHz, 2 GB RAM, 16 GB storage. Uses Google apps and requires an HDMI monitor plus bluetooth keyboard and mouse. That's easy and economical? It's not even mobile. It's a low-end, compressed desktop that can only run a few web apps. So what's the appeal? Saving some money? I suspect that's rarely a factor. $5 coffee, take-out food, game devices, computer phones and HD TVs all attest that the average first world person is almost oblivious to costs. Those are all expensive, non-critical items. Computing, on the other hand, is a critical need for most people. | Web apps are (often) conceptionally superior to local programs: No | need for upgrading by the end user, the web app is upgraded centrally | instead. No need for massive, local CPU power, because the heavy | lifting is done centrally. No need for big local storage, because data | is stored centrally. The result is a cheaper, safer, easier use of | computer power. Economics of scale are at work here and that`s why | this will be the dominant way of computing in the future. | Maybe this appeals because you can limit what your daughter gets mixed up in? I'm guessing there are no S&M chat groups in GoogleVille. Conceptually superior? That's misleading. Or to put it bluntly, you've been duped. The web app companies want you to think web apps are a natural progression because they want you in a scenario where everything you do costs a feee. Money or ads and/or personal data, but some kind of fee. Web app software is far more limited while also requiring far more computer power. Most software rarely needs upgrading. Most web apps do *not* run remotely. Office 365 and Adobe CS? They're installed locally. The remote part is just the calling home and storage, to justify charging you every month. And you're talking about a fairly beefy PC on a stick with the Chromebit. Photoshop or MS Office would run fine on Win98 with 700 MHz and 64 MB RAM. You've got several times more capacity with Chromebit. This is my whole point: The logic simply doesn't add up. If you want to limit your daughter's activities or save money on kids school supplies, that might make sense. Setting up a Chromebit rig to use as a real computer does not make sense in terms of cost, practicality, functionality, or even convenience. | The existence of tablets has nothing | to do with the life of desktops, just as the existence of | microwave ovens doesn't make stoves obsolete. | | A better analogy would be the fate of open fires after the introducing | of central heating. | Suit yourself. This is starting to sound like religion to me. Not because you like web services but because you're so adamant that they must replace everything else, despite the fact that millions of people, including you, use a desktop. | I don't mean that. I mean that Google products are spyware. | | Then choose another web app provider. Chrome OS/Cloudread has an | anonymous (guest) mode. | You're missing the point. By pretending to do your work on their website and storing your data on their cloud, they define it as a service. That justifies the rent. That also provides the excuse for them to claim co-ownership of your data. That's what gmail does. The whole system revolves around targetted ads. Or you pay very steep prices. You didn't just stumble upon a magical kingdom of free stuff. You pay one way or the other. It's possible that Microsoft will be slightly less slimy with their web services, but that's not saying much. However you look at it, you're letting the landlord co-own your stuff and spy on you. And the real kicker is that you don't actually have to do that. (Most people have real, free email through their ISP. Theyt just can't be bothered to set it up.) In a lawsuit awhile back, non-gmail customers sued Google for reading their email without permission. Google's defense: Those people had no business thinking they might have privacy because Google has been spying on everyone for years and everyone knows that. In other words, "You can't prosecute us for stealing their stuff because everyone knows we steal everyone's stuff!" Adobe charges something like $10 US/month and stores work online. Anyone who doesn't know enough to make local copies will lose all their work if they end the rental. In other words, with web apps you still don't get the convenience of not needing to understand the device. You still use hardware that can cause problems. You still need to learn how to use the software. And you still need to understand the pros and cons of your brave new Rental-Rama. If you're not careful you might lose all your data. | In the future "the system" will be mainly in the cloud, connected to | dumber terminals. You don`t learn to operate a power station to use | your electricity at home, do you? | You seem to be watching too much TV. How is it that you know the future with such certainty? Your words sound like a TV commercial. The "system" is local. Do you really think that every time you type a letter in Google apps it's calling Google for a webpage update? And if you press backspace 30 times it makes a roundtrip to Google for a new webpage 30 times in 2 seconds? Not likely. If it does then it will be a very limited app. What you've got is either software that's really running locally, or a bloated javascript program running in the browser and calling home frequently. As noted above, Office 365 and Adobe CS do not run on the cloud. They only pretend to be in the cloud. And a web app is not lean. Wrapping all that functionality in sandboxing and a browser is extremely inefficient. That's partly why it's taken so long to make the web app scam work. Microsoft invented .Net for web apps. In 2001. They tried to make a sandboxed version of Windows, running on top of .Net, in 2005. By their description, it failed because there was not yet hardware powerful enough to handle the extreme bloat. Why didn't it work? Because .Net is a bloated, superfluous layer used to simplify programming tasks and add sandboxing. It's not the future any more than javascript is the future. It may be one future tool, but some kind of software has to work directly with the processor and RAM. That's what the OS makes possible. A browser running javascript and/or Silverlight is several layers removed from the "bare metal" functionality of the CPU and RAM. Each of those layers is costly. The problem in 2001, and 2005, was that neither the hardware nor the Internet connection speed was adequate to run the extremely inefficent, bloated layers that are necessary for web apps to run convincingly. Also, the hardware and the public were not yet ready for reducing computers to crippled kiosks. (Why run software online, after all, if it runs better and cheaper locally? The solution? Restrict computers in the name of security and convenience.) Your Chromebit is clearly dumb, but it's not low-power. It's Linux with extensive sandboxing and crippling technology to create a kiosk system that locks you into a browser. My very elderly father has something like that. It's called a WOW: Linux built into a monitor, set up as a web browsing kiosk system. He didn't buy it because it's the future. He bought it because he could no longer focus sufficiently to use a fully functional computer. In other words, you've been had. Google's not on the cutting edge of the future, unless these companies somehow manage to deprive us, by hook in your case and by crook in mine, of non-crippled computers. | As for Windows ads, what about ads for Candy Crush | or MS Office in Metro buttons? | | I deinstalled these. Havn`t seen other ads on my PCs with Windows 10. | So you do see ads. Removing the ads is not the same as there being no ads. And removing them required some expertise. I don't have any Candy Crush crap on my computer. If I did I'd know that some malware had snuck on. |
#33
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cloud OS?
On 2017-12-30, mechanic wrote:
What's wrong with that? We are already used to a rental system on our cars (in the UK called Personal Contract Purchase or PCP). It's the way things are going. Perhaps for you that's the way things are going. I prefer to own things rather than rent and not pay perpetual fees for their use, whenever possible. (I have not had a car payment in well over 30 years.) -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.) NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com Don't talk to cops! -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
#34
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cloud OS?
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 09:43:09 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote: "Michael Logies" wrote | No, a Chromebit. That is a full PC in the size of an USB-stick, with a | big monitor and a big keyboard and mouse attached for using web apps | (from Google and others). | Ah. I didn't know about those. At the CNEt review page it says 1.8 GHz, 2 GB RAM, 16 GB storage. Uses Google apps and requires an HDMI monitor plus bluetooth keyboard and mouse. That's easy and economical? It has one USB-outlet, too, which is connected to a Dell U2412M (1920*1200 pixel). The Dell with its internal USB hub connects to a usual USB-keyboard, a USB-mouse, a USB-soundstick, a USB-camera, if needed. A more complete hardware solution is offered by a chromebox or a chromebook. It's not even mobile. It's a low-end, compressed desktop that can only run a few web apps. Yes, with minimized TCO, especially maintenance, which is most important for me. And Google Apps are much easier and faster to learn than Windows with classic Desktop apps. As I wrote, 60% of US-schools are already sold to Chrome OS, proving that it makes a lot of sense for class rooms: https://www.neowin.net/news/chrome-o...t-of-the-world Chrome OS tops in U.S. schools; Windows leads rest of the world By John Keefer @@keefinator · Dec 6, 2017 · HOT! So what's the appeal? Mac, Windows, Linux had 10-100 more security flaws than Chrome OS in the last several years. Chrome OS does not need a virus scanner. Devices with Chrome OS are very well integrated with Android. Pictures and films made with her smartphone camera will go automatically into her Google account (free & unlimited uploads with the Google Fotos app), can be used there with any web brower on any PC. Her smartphone was cluttered by snapchats. We just copied the files to Google Fotos on her smartphone, emptied data of snapchat, then deleted all pictures already backuped to Google, and now her smartphone is usable, again. Real time collaboration on documents is free and easy to use with Google Apps. Saving some money? I suspect that's rarely a factor. For me, it is. Saving is a hobby of mine. ;-) Maybe this appeals because you can limit what your daughter gets mixed up in? Only I have her Google account data (same for Chromebit and her smartphone), so I can have a look on what she is doing. I'm guessing there are no S&M chat groups in GoogleVille. Chrome OS connects to the whole internet... I restrict it with automatic blacklisting on the router. because they want you in a scenario where everything you do costs a feee. Money or ads and/or personal data, but some kind of fee. With Microsoft or Linux it`s worse. I had to pay them with a lot more of my time to keep them usuable and safe. This is my whole point: The logic simply doesn't add up. If you want to limit your daughter's activities or save money on kids school supplies, that might make sense. Setting up a Chromebit rig to use as a real computer does not make sense in terms of cost, practicality, functionality, or even convenience. We wil see. Web apps are evolving fast, the desktop PC is stagnating: https://www.mrc-productivity.com/blo...ends-for-2017/ 5 big enterprise web application development trends for 2017 January 4, 2017 (...) She already had some assignments, which were easy to solve with her chromebit, much easier than it would have been possible on a Windows PC. Not because you like web services but because you're so adamant that they must replace everything else, Not everything for everyone, but perhaps for 80-90% of all use cases. You're missing the point. By pretending to do your work on their website and storing your data on their cloud, they define it as a service. That justifies the rent. That also provides the excuse for them to claim co-ownership of your data. The legal situation is a bit different in europe, even for Google: https://privacy.google.com/intl/en_u...al_active=none Regards M. |
#35
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cloud OS?
"Michael Logies" wrote
| As I wrote, 60% of US-schools are already sold to Chrome OS, proving | that it makes a lot of sense for class rooms: | https://www.neowin.net/news/chrome-o...t-of-the-world | Chrome OS tops in U.S. schools; Windows leads rest of the world That's an interesting issue. Bill Gates and his insidous foundation have been trying to push their own agenda in the US, in terms of education standards. According to your link, Google is also making inroads. I don't consider that progress. I consider it a combination of corruption on the part of govt/companies and naivety on the part of educators, in thinking that tech by itself makes kids smarter. The US is also making progress in selling out schools to advertisers in order to raise funds. Things like ball fields painted with "Hersheys" or "Coca-Cola". I also don't consider that to be progress. My partner of many years is a retired kindergarten teacher who now supervises student teachers for a university. When she taught she had to order Macs in order to get the tables, chairs and shelving she needed. The money came from Federal funding and she wasn't allowed to order one without the other. Gov't stupidity? Apple lobbying? I don't know the details. I do know the Macs were never used because none of the early childhood teachers thought that 5-7 year olds should spend their time with "edutainment" apps on computers. Channel One News with ads is also popular in US schools. Is that good? I wouldn't say so. When I was young we were assigned to bring in current news stories to discuss. With Channel One the stories are picked by a for-profit company and interspersed with ads. As for your link.... Do you know what "research and consulting firms" like Futuresource do? Their role is to talk up the industry with fluff press releases and to give fluff seminars on the current fads at industry conferences. They're glorified marketers. How do you suppose you ended up with a link about US edcation purchases from a British consulting firm? Because they're the source of their own planned hoopla: https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/...rket/78323158/ (Note who USA Today is quoting. It's a press release masquerading as news.) I have a favorite example of that kind of scam. When XP came out, a company called Asset-Metrix was everywhere with a "study" showing that Win98 was no longer safe to use and companies should upgrade to XP. Why was 98 unsafe? Because MS was ending support. That was the gist of their study. Rather like the Monty Python brontosaurus expert. (MS later extended support.) Asset-Metrix, when they weren't doing brilliant, in-depth research, was in the business of helping companies upgrade their computers. They were later quietly bought by Microsoft. Why did MS need a Windows PC management company? Could the company itself have been a "spin-in" racket? Was there some kind of payoff going on? I don't know and I'm not accusing anyone. But I do find it hard to think of another reason for MS to buy Asset-Metrix. Either way, their so-called study was nothing more than an ad for their business. They really didn't even try to hide that. Most people are so trained to think anything claiming to be a scientific study must be true that A-M didn't need to hide what they were doing. They only needed to present their ad as though it were an official scientific study. |
#36
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cloud OS?
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 14:23:11 +0100, Michael Logies wrote:
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 11:13:08 +0000, mechanic wrote: Pity Android phones are so hard to network (compared to Apple iPhones); I can`t agree. Windows Homegroup networking is so much more of a problem Avoid homegroup networking and then networking with androids to Windows PCs becomes easy: https://www.howtogeek.com/191378/how...ad-and-iphone/ If only, there are far too many settings which need to be checked such as needing TCP/IP6 turned on (even if you aren't using it), setting up file sharing and using the same credentials for all connected devices before you can be sure windows10 machines will even talk to each other never mind Android or Samba servers. Then there are problems if you haven't set fixed IP addresses for each machine. Forums are full of tales of woe from users just trying to network a couple of Windows machines. And Homegroup is supposed to be easy! |
#37
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cloud OS?
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 18:06:43 +0000, mechanic
wrote: If only, there are far too many settings which need to be checked such as needing TCP/IP6 turned on (even if you aren't using it), setting up file sharing and using the same credentials for all connected devices before you can be sure windows10 machines will even talk to each other never mind Android or Samba servers. If the file is free to access for everyone, Android does not need the user credentials, as far as I remember. I seldom use this feature. For what? Sometimes I use bluetooth for connecting to an AptX-receiver or miracast for conneting to a TV. Then there are problems if you haven't set fixed IP addresses for each machine. Usually not. I use the DHCP server of my router. The router has an option to use always the same IP for the same device, which results in fixed IPs, but with less hassle on the client side. Forums are full of tales of woe from users just trying to network a couple of Windows machines. Networking has not changed much since XP. I still have 2 XP machines on my network, working together with Win 7 and Win 10. And Homegroup is supposed to be easy! I never tried it. Regards M. |
#38
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cloud OS?
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 12:30:26 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote: and naivety on the part of educators, in thinking that tech by itself makes kids smarter. I agree that is does not. But compared to Windows, Chrome OS is lightweight and fast and does not stand in the way of teaching. If one does not use a Windows PC for some weeks, it may be impossible to use for some time after booting because of updates. This will not happen with Chrome OS. Much less need to explain the usage of Chrome OS and the Google Apps to kids compared to e. g. Word. Even backups are automatic... There are other statistics: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/03/c...e-vs-linux-usa Chrome OS Has Double the Marketshare of Regular Linux in USA Google's coud-centric OS proves more popular than traditional Linux distros stateside BY JOEY SNEDDON UNDER NEWS MARCH 8, 2017 And on the professional side of things: https://simplystatistics.org/2017/08...-a-chromebook/ Data Science on a Chromebook Jeff Leek 2017/08/29 chromebook About nine months ago I announced that I was attempting a Chromebook experiment for the 2nd time. At first I thought it was going to be a short term experiment just to see if it was possible to function with only a Chromebook. But in an interesting twist I got used to it and have been working exclusively on a Chromebook for the last few months since the experiment started. (...) |
#39
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cloud OS?
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 19:34:46 +0100, Michael Logies wrote:
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 18:06:43 +0000, mechanic wrote: If only, there are far too many settings which need to be checked such as needing TCP/IP6 turned on (even if you aren't using it), setting up file sharing and using the same credentials for all connected devices before you can be sure windows10 machines will even talk to each other never mind Android or Samba servers. If the file is free to access for everyone, Android does not need the user credentials, as far as I remember. Android? I turn on my Nexus machine and of course it can connect to the router wifi - is that your idea of interworking? It's pretty limited, I can download/upload files using an app but that's not the same as the picture viewer offering to search the LAN for images to display. And working with files is working against the Android system which likes to keep such things hidden. In my daughter's Apple network, things like that 'just work'. |
#40
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cloud OS?
On Mon, 1 Jan 2018 10:24:22 +0000, mechanic
wrote: but that's not the same as the picture viewer offering to search the LAN for images to display. And working with files is working against the Android system No. Install Kodi on your Windows PC and on your Android for streaming pictures and videos from PC to Android. Or use a file manager like Total Commander for Android (with plugin for LAN/Windows network, should be installable from inside TC for Android, or he https://www.ghisler.com/androidplugins/download/ Regards M. |
#41
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cloud OS?
Roger Blake wrote:
On 2017-12-29, dale wrote: How about a terminal/thin-client running a cloud distributed java byte-code OS with availability of byte-code apps including development? The only thing besides that I would want is hardware input/output like: CD/DVD, USB stick, memory card, etc. might give a rise to the hardware consumable market ... With the right model I think OS or network development is even possible Sounds awful. However, I reject "the cloud" and prefer to maintain local control of my resources and data. The server don't have to be outside of your home. For example, your desktop computer is server (doing all the heavy calculations), your table is client (receiving commands for you and displaying the graphics). The only problem here is the connection speed, obviously. |
#42
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cloud OS?
dale wrote:
On 12/29/17 9:03 PM, Pabst Blue Ribbon wrote: dale wrote: After around 25 years of enjoying peer-peer desktop computing with self administration I look back to client/server models and want something for most of what I do without my own machine/network admin. How about a terminal/thin-client running a cloud distributed java byte-code OS with availability of byte-code apps including development? Inferno is what you want. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(operating_system) know of anyone running a safe and reliable server and a thin-client? Ummm, yeah, whole bunch of people. Did you read the link? This is not a new idea, it was around since times of Plan 9. The only thing besides that I would want is hardware input/output like: CD/DVD, USB stick, memory card, etc. might give a rise to the hardware consumable market ... With the right model I think OS or network development is even possible |
#43
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cloud OS?
On Tue, 02 Jan 2018 22:38:24 GMT, Pabst Blue Ribbon
wrote: The server don't have to be outside of your home. For example, your desktop computer is server (doing all the heavy calculations), your table is client (receiving commands for you and displaying the graphics). The only problem here is the connection speed, obviously. Within my WLAN (802.11g, 54 Mbit/s) Google`s "Chrome Remote Desktop" is fast enough for transfering Video (DVD running on a Windows machine) to an android tablet in real time. Same is true for newer versions of Microsoft`s RDP for Windows and Android. |
#44
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cloud OS?
Pabst Blue Ribbon wrote:
dale wrote: know of anyone running a safe and reliable server and a thin-client? Ummm, yeah, whole bunch of people. Did you read the link? This is not a new idea, it was around since times of Plan 9. It used to be that the "clients" were dumb serial terminals. -- "Linux simply isn't mature enough and rich enough for the average home user ..." - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark |
#45
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cloud OS?
chrisv wrote:
Pabst Blue Ribbon wrote: dale wrote: know of anyone running a safe and reliable server and a thin-client? Ummm, yeah, whole bunch of people. Did you read the link? This is not a new idea, it was around since times of Plan 9. It used to be that the "clients" were dumb serial terminals. True, if you look at it this way it all can be dated back to the times of mainframes and dumb terminals. If I understand dale correctly he was looking for distributed OS where both server and client are running same operating system. Inferno does exactly that. It's more complicated approach but allows more flexibility and transparency. |
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