What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?

"Frank Slootweg" wrote

| BTW, are we still on topic in all the groups? We can't have "ASO's
| flooding the internet", can we!?

ASOs? It seems we've barely been on topic all
month. We're all breaking down in the face of
coronavirus lockdown, becoming more ourselves.
I'm wandering off into gleeful, iconoclastic diatribes
while you become the goodie-goodie hall monitor
who makes sure that everyone follows rules.

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 12:16:41, Mayayana
wrote:
"Ken Blake" wrote

| I can understand why you think of it as confusing, but personally I
| think showing it as a folder is a good idea. It lets you open it as you
| would open a folder and use the files within it (mostly) as you would
| the files in a folder.

+1.
|
Yes. It's good for beginners, up to a point. But

I'm hardly a beginner (-:.

it's deceptive. When I try to help others I always
have to explain adamantly that they need to take
the files/folder out of the ZIP. "Drag the folder out
of there and put it on the Desktop. Then delete the
original. It's not a real folder. I can't really explain it...

Whose fault is that (-: ...[Just teasing you. I know what beginners -
or, even some long-term users who just aren't computerate - are like.]

Just drag it out. There you go. Now you can open
that file and resave it..."

For my own purposes I've never used that functionality.
I always install a ZIP program as part of basic setup,
along with IrfanView, Sysinternals tools, etc. If I'm
taking files out of a ZIP there's a good chance I'll be
moving them around, saving an edited version, etc.
So to my mind, unpacking the files is the first step.


I do have two or three zip programs. However, _most_ of the time I find
the explorer add-on sufficient in itself. If I want to look at a
picture, document (other than HTML file), or video that's inside a .zip,
I usually can. Even a .exe, though I know enough to know that that's
unwise unless it's the only file there. (And if it is, I know it's safe
to ignore the "this may rely on other files" warning, as there aren't
any!)

I don't think there's anything _wrong_ with its being there, as long as
you know its limitations - and, for me, it _is_ useful.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

.... behaving morally does not require religious adherence. - The Right Rev
Nigel McCulloch\Bishop of Manchester (Radio Times, 24-30 September 2011

On 03.07.20 16:26, Mayayana wrote:
"Frank Slootweg" wrote

| I like the "snipping tool". I'm not completely sure whether it was
| available earlier.
|
| IIRC, it was already in XP, but at least in Vista.

This is the first I've ever heard of it. Pressing PrtScr
puts a desktop screenshot on the clipboard.
Pressing Ctrl + Prt Scr puts an active window screenshot
on the clipboard. That can then be pasted into any
graphic editor and cropped.

To think of "snipping tool"
as a new function is like thinking of built-in ZIP as a
new function: It's there, but only the least experienced
people, who never actually use ZIP files, would be
without a real ZIP program. The least of those is still
better than the confusing windows ZIP functionality
that shows a ZIP as a folder.


also works in XP PRO.

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

[On Windows' built-in ZIP:]

I do have two or three zip programs. However, _most_ of the time I find
the explorer add-on sufficient in itself. If I want to look at a
picture, document (other than HTML file), or video that's inside a .zip,
I usually can. Even a .exe, though I know enough to know that that's
unwise unless it's the only file there. (And if it is, I know it's safe
to ignore the "this may rely on other files" warning, as there aren't
any!)

I don't think there's anything _wrong_ with its being there, as long as
you know its limitations - and, for me, it _is_ useful.

Some stuff, including software, is distributed in .zip files. It can
be handy that Joe Newbie doesn't have to install an (un)ZIP program
first to unzip what he has just downloaded. OTOH, if what Joe downloaded
is in 'non-standard' ZIP format, he'll have to get something like 7-Zip
anyway.

That said, nowadays I just use 7-Zip for most unzipping. (For *some*
unzipping, 7-Zip doesn't quite do the trick.)

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

[built-in zip]

I don't think there's anything _wrong_ with its being there, as long
as you know its limitations - and, for me, it _is_ useful.

It can be useful in some cases but the deal breaker for me is that
(on XP) file dates are not preserved on extraction. They get the
current date & time.

On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 at 00:18:11, Apd wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

[built-in zip]

I don't think there's anything _wrong_ with its being there, as long
as you know its limitations - and, for me, it _is_ useful.

It can be useful in some cases but the deal breaker for me is that
(on XP) file dates are not preserved on extraction. They get the
current date & time.


I hadn't spotted that. I rarely extracted - AFAICR, only for
installations that _required_ several files, and in those cases I'd
usually delete the extracted files after the installation was complete,
so it didn't matter. Yes, that would bug me too. (I'll have a look to
see if the same applies in 7 next time I do an extraction, if I
remember.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The motto of the Royal Society is: 'Take nobody's word for it'. Scepticism has
value. - Brian Cox, RT 2015/3/14-20

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 at 00:18:11, Apd wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

[built-in zip]

I don't think there's anything _wrong_ with its being there, as long
as you know its limitations - and, for me, it _is_ useful.

It can be useful in some cases but the deal breaker for me is that
(on XP) file dates are not preserved on extraction. They get the
current date & time.


I hadn't spotted that. I rarely extracted - AFAICR, only for
installations that _required_ several files, and in those cases I'd
usually delete the extracted files after the installation was complete,
so it didn't matter. Yes, that would bug me too. (I'll have a look to
see if the same applies in 7 next time I do an extraction, if I remember.)

In the ZIP tool I use, only the Modified field is displayed,
with Created and Accessed blank.

In File Explorer, Modified is how I list files.

When I extract a file from a ZIP, I get a 2014 date like
I see inside the ZIP tool console.

I don't care what the Created field says, and if the
Created field was 2020 and the Modified field was 2014,
then I know it's a 2014 file. I might only witness values
like that, when doing "Properties" on the file.

Paul

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 07:42:29 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On 7/3/2020 7:26 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"Frank Slootweg" wrote

| I like the "snipping tool". I'm not completely sure whether it was
| available earlier.
|
| IIRC, it was already in XP, but at least in Vista.

This is the first I've ever heard of it. Pressing PrtScr
puts a desktop screenshot on the clipboard.
Pressing Ctrl + Prt Scr puts an active window screenshot
on the clipboard. That can then be pasted into any
graphic editor and cropped.

To think of "snipping tool"
as a new function is like thinking of built-in ZIP as a
new function: It's there, but only the least experienced
people, who never actually use ZIP files, would be
without a real ZIP program. The least of those is still
better than the confusing windows ZIP functionality
that shows a ZIP as a folder.

I can understand why you think of it as confusing, but personally I
think showing it as a folder is a good idea. It lets you open it as you
would open a folder and use the files within it (mostly) as you would
the files in a folder.

The zip archive icon is different, compared to a folder icon.

On 3 Jul 2020 17:34:34 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

That said, nowadays I just use 7-Zip for most unzipping. (For
*some* unzipping, 7-Zip doesn't quite do the trick.)

....eg for RAR files. See this history page for some insight about
the development of compress/archive formats:

https://ethw.org/History_of_Lossless...ion_Algorithms

On 3 Jul 2020 13:07:38 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

[Newsgroups restored]

Sjouke Burry wrote:
On 03.07.20 12:36, Frank Slootweg wrote:
....
PLEASE strip newsgroups.
Only ASO's try to flood the internet.

Don't be silly! You can disagree about the (non-)sense of the
OP/subject, but it *is* applicable to all the listed newsgroups.

FWIW, I don't like massive crossposting either, but once the OP has
set the groups, snipping groups is nearly always counter-productive,
because people in the snipped group(s) will miss part of the discussion
or/and waste their time posting something which has already been
discussed in the other group(s).

Bottom line: There is *no* advantage snipping groups in an already
started thread, unless a group is off-topic from the start.

Keep snipping! In this case no sense in including the win7 and xp
groups - they're already a lost cause!

"Paul" wrote:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 at 00:18:11, Apd wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

[built-in zip]

I don't think there's anything _wrong_ with its being there, as long
as you know its limitations - and, for me, it _is_ useful.

It can be useful in some cases but the deal breaker for me is that
(on XP) file dates are not preserved on extraction. They get the
current date & time.

I hadn't spotted that. I rarely extracted - AFAICR, only for
installations that _required_ several files, and in those cases I'd
usually delete the extracted files after the installation was complete,
so it didn't matter. Yes, that would bug me too. (I'll have a look to
see if the same applies in 7 next time I do an extraction, if I remember.)

In the ZIP tool I use, only the Modified field is displayed,
with Created and Accessed blank.

7-Zip can show all 3 dates if present. The built-in function on XP
shows one date without saying which. It turns out to be "modified".

In File Explorer, Modified is how I list files.

Same here. It's the only useful field.

When I extract a file from a ZIP, I get a 2014 date like
I see inside the ZIP tool console.

Built-in or other tool? When 7-zip extracts files, all dates are
preserved on extraction if present.

I don't care what the Created field says, and if the
Created field was 2020 and the Modified field was 2014,
then I know it's a 2014 file. I might only witness values
like that, when doing "Properties" on the file.

Exactly. Created can be lower or higher than the modified date.

I've now discovered that the built-in zip extaction varies on two XP
machines here! They are both SP3 but one has more recent patches.

zipfldr.dll 6.00.2900.5512 (xpsp.080413-2105)

This sets all dates to the "modified" date from zip on extraction
which I suppose is reasonable.

zipfldr.dll 6.00.2900.7443 (xpsp_sp3_qfe.180215-0605)

This sets the created date to the modified date from the zip on
extraction. The modified date is set to the current date. It's the
wrong way round!

So, as far as I'm concerned, the later revision has undesirable
behaviour.

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 at 00:18:11, Apd wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

[built-in zip]

I don't think there's anything _wrong_ with its being there, as long
as you know its limitations - and, for me, it _is_ useful.

It can be useful in some cases but the deal breaker for me is that
(on XP) file dates are not preserved on extraction. They get the
current date & time.

I hadn't spotted that. I rarely extracted - AFAICR, only for
installations that _required_ several files, and in those cases I'd
usually delete the extracted files after the installation was complete,
so it didn't matter. Yes, that would bug me too. (I'll have a look to
see if the same applies in 7 next time I do an extraction, if I
remember.)

I just checked a fully patched Win7. All dates (created, modified,
accessed) are set to the modified date stored in the zip on extracted
files, which is reasonable behaviour. See my other post for XP
anomalies.

"mechanic" wrote

| I can understand why you think of it as confusing, but personally I
| think showing it as a folder is a good idea. It lets you open it as you
| would open a folder and use the files within it (mostly) as you would
| the files in a folder.
|
| The zip archive icon is different, compared to a folder icon.

This is all obvious to people in this group. But when
someone opens a ZIP in Windows they see a folder.
They don't see a green folder with a warning, or any
other indicator that this is not a real folder.

I find it confusing for myself. It's very rare that I
might want one file out of a ZIP. Usually I'll want to
unpack it.

On 04.07.20 13:27, mechanic wrote:
On 3 Jul 2020 17:34:34 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

That said, nowadays I just use 7-Zip for most unzipping. (For
*some* unzipping, 7-Zip doesn't quite do the trick.)

...eg for RAR files. See this history page for some insight about
the development of compress/archive formats:

https://ethw.org/History_of_Lossless...ion_Algorithms

Using IZArc for those.

mechanic wrote:
On 3 Jul 2020 17:34:34 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

That said, nowadays I just use 7-Zip for most unzipping. (For
*some* unzipping, 7-Zip doesn't quite do the trick.)

...eg for RAR files. See this history page for some insight about
the development of compress/archive formats:

https://ethw.org/History_of_Lossless...ion_Algorithms

Eugene Roshal provides a library for decompression of the RAR format.
That part is free.

It's the compression part which is not free, and 7Z is less likely
to support that (without some work). I bet Igor has the skill set
and the chops to reverse engineer it. But he's not going to.

This is similar to some other compression formats, where they
would sell you the compressor, but the decompression was free.

That's also why some compression formats have SFX, to encourage
free decompression, and "without installing anything".

Paul