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  #1  
Old October 25th 17, 12:12 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
Default Asus X550J laptop

I've found this problem talked about online, but no
help. System claims to analyze disk at boot, then repair
starts, then screen goes blank. BIOS accessible.
Unable to boot from CD. Very few options in
the BIOS. I don't know where to start. Sometimes
I get a disk inaccessible error. Other times not.
Mybe the laptop has been dropped?


  #2  
Old October 25th 17, 01:47 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default Asus X550J laptop

Mayayana wrote:
I've found this problem talked about online, but no
help. System claims to analyze disk at boot, then repair
starts, then screen goes blank. BIOS accessible.
Unable to boot from CD. Very few options in
the BIOS. I don't know where to start. Sometimes
I get a disk inaccessible error. Other times not.
Mybe the laptop has been dropped?



https://www.asus.com/us/Laptops/X550JK/specifications/

Storage 1TB HDD 5400

You should be able to pull the drive, and work on it
in your technician machine. It's likely to be a 2.5"
SATA with standard SATA connectors.

Check the SMART stats on the hard drive.

See if the partitions that should be visible, have
files showing.

If the owner has valuable data on it, back up first,
before charting a course of action. The temptation
to run CHKDSK is probably overpowering, but see if
you can back it up first.

Paul
  #3  
Old October 25th 17, 04:13 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
Default Asus X550J laptop

"Paul" wrote

| You should be able to pull the drive, and work on it
| in your technician machine. It's likely to be a 2.5"
| SATA with standard SATA connectors.
|

It's been backed up. No problem there. I plugged
it in with a USB adaptor to my XP machine and disk
manager says it's healthy but it doesn't show up in
My Computer. I can't boot a CD in the laptop.
I'm guessing this is possibly encrypted and certainly
NTFS. What do I need to see the files on that?
I have WinXP and Win7-64. Should 7 see it if I just
plug it in as a data drive?

| Check the SMART stats on the hard drive.
|
| See if the partitions that should be visible, have
| files showing.
|


  #4  
Old October 25th 17, 04:57 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default Asus X550J laptop

Mayayana wrote:
"Paul" wrote

| You should be able to pull the drive, and work on it
| in your technician machine. It's likely to be a 2.5"
| SATA with standard SATA connectors.
|

It's been backed up. No problem there. I plugged
it in with a USB adaptor to my XP machine and disk
manager says it's healthy but it doesn't show up in
My Computer. I can't boot a CD in the laptop.
I'm guessing this is possibly encrypted and certainly
NTFS. What do I need to see the files on that?
I have WinXP and Win7-64. Should 7 see it if I just
plug it in as a data drive?

| Check the SMART stats on the hard drive.
|
| See if the partitions that should be visible, have
| files showing.
|



Best practice, is for the encrypting party to have
a "password floppy" or equivalent. You can make a
kind of recovery media, that allows decrypting the
partition in question.

With full disk encryption, the tiny partition containing
/boot and the BCD file, is not encrypted. Therefore, enough
software must be present in there, to support decryption
before hand-off to C: . It's your job, to find the password
media the owner was supposed to use, for just such emergencies.
Presentation of the password disc, should enable you to convert
the disk back to plaintext.

Some of these schemes, there can be error multiplication.
A single error in storage, can cause a larger chunk of info
to be errored, by schemes such as encryption or compression.
In the case of BitLocker, there is the Elephant Diffuser
in earlier versions. Microsoft made the Win10 version less
secure by removing the Elephant Diffuser. As long as the
encryption scheme is file based, perhaps the most damage
a storage error could do, is severe damage to the file the
error is in. If the encryption scheme were to work at
the sector level (as if it was a large TAR file), then
one error in storage, could be spread all over the place.

The manual shows it has Secure Boot. You would think the
choices would be "Yes" or "No", but AptIO apparently
supports "Custom". The Key Management field populates
if you switch it to Custom. The reason I'm looking in
this area right now, is for signs the box has a TPM chip.
TPM can be used by BitLocker. Or as a root of trust for
Secure Boot or something.

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/nb/X550JD/0409.pdf

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/80...4.html?page=93

Platform Key (PK)
Key Exchange Key database (KEK)
Authorized Signature database (DB)
Forbidden Signature database (DBX)

That doesn't necessarily mention TPM.

If you set Secure Boot Control to [Disabled], as seen on page 81
of 0409.pdf, then maybe you can get your OS media to boot. For
whatever thing you have in mind. If it's a UEFI BIOS, then
perhaps you'd want to try OS media which is Hybrid and supports
both Legacy and UEFI. On your Win7 disc, you might want to try an
SP1 flavor of disk, as it might stand a better chance of working.
I don't know the status of Windows 7 when it comes to booting
on stuff like this.

I sure hope the owner read the "best practice" for whatever
crypto is in usage. It could be BitLocker. It could be
TrueCrypt for all I know. I don't really know what to look for,
when it becomes apparent crypto is involved. Would the method
print on the screen "I am BitLocker, and no you may not come in" ?
Or would it fail silently ?

You may have Win7 media, because you bought a retail disc with
license key. In which case there is a Microsoft web page to download
media (i.e. a more recent Win7 disc with SP1 on it). If you got the
Win7 non-SP1 media at a fire sale, with no key, then you can use
the Heidoc URL generator software, to make Microsoft cough up a
download for you. The reason it has "steep requirements", is it
uses Internet Explorer to carry out a transaction with TechBench,
which coughs up a download URL, without the presentation of your
license key. You use the "Copy to Clipboard" button in the panel,
them flip over to any browser (Firefox) and paste in the download
URL. The download URL is valid for 24 hours, so don't attempt a DVD
download over dialup, as it might stretch past 24 hours. Any sort of
broadband internet, should be able to complete the download
in less than 24 hours.

https://www.heidoc.net/joomla/techno...-download-tool

You only need to download something, if you can't get your
existing media to work. With Secure Boot turned off.

Paul
  #5  
Old October 25th 17, 01:27 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
Default Asus X550J laptop

"Paul" wrote

| Best practice, is for the encrypting party to have
| a "password floppy" or equivalent. You can make a
| kind of recovery media, that allows decrypting the
| partition in question.
|

I don't have any reason to think it's encrypted. But
up until now I've managed to preety much avoid NTFS
and newer boot systems. If I hook up a FAT32 disk
to any computer I can read it. This disk is not showing up.
So I'm wondering what system/software I might use
just to check for valid partitions and test the drive.
It has to be on a system, since the DVD drive boot is
not working. What would the tech people who retrieved
personal files used?

| The manual shows it has Secure Boot. You would think the
| choices would be "Yes" or "No", but AptIO apparently
| supports "Custom".

I didn't notice such a field. I guess I need to get
up to date on these newer complications.

| If you set Secure Boot Control to [Disabled], as seen on page 81
| of 0409.pdf, then maybe you can get your OS media to boot. For
| whatever thing you have in mind. If it's a UEFI BIOS, then
| perhaps you'd want to try OS media which is Hybrid and supports
| both Legacy and UEFI. On your Win7 disc, you might want to try an
| SP1 flavor of disk, as it might stand a better chance of working.
| I don't know the status of Windows 7 when it comes to booting
| on stuff like this.
|

I have a Win7 disk. But I'm not clear how that might be
useful. Boot it in the DVD drive and then...?

I *don't* have a Win8 disk and so far the owner hasn't
found an activation key, so I'm not sure I could reinstall
that way, even if I get the DVD boot working. (I thought
the "genuine license" sticker was always on these things,
but this laptop doesn't have it.)

What about the phenomenon of gettting bumped? The
boot typically goes through checking for disk errors,
fixing errors, etc. but then either goes blank or goes to
BIOS. At that point the hard disk has, at least sometimes,
disappeared from the BIOS. Is it possible that's actually
a boot or software issue and not a faulty SATA connection?


  #6  
Old October 25th 17, 11:08 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default Asus X550J laptop

Mayayana wrote:
"Paul" wrote

| Best practice, is for the encrypting party to have
| a "password floppy" or equivalent. You can make a
| kind of recovery media, that allows decrypting the
| partition in question.
|

I don't have any reason to think it's encrypted. But
up until now I've managed to preety much avoid NTFS
and newer boot systems. If I hook up a FAT32 disk
to any computer I can read it. This disk is not showing up.
So I'm wondering what system/software I might use
just to check for valid partitions and test the drive.
It has to be on a system, since the DVD drive boot is
not working. What would the tech people who retrieved
personal files used?

| The manual shows it has Secure Boot. You would think the
| choices would be "Yes" or "No", but AptIO apparently
| supports "Custom".

I didn't notice such a field. I guess I need to get
up to date on these newer complications.

| If you set Secure Boot Control to [Disabled], as seen on page 81
| of 0409.pdf, then maybe you can get your OS media to boot. For
| whatever thing you have in mind. If it's a UEFI BIOS, then
| perhaps you'd want to try OS media which is Hybrid and supports
| both Legacy and UEFI. On your Win7 disc, you might want to try an
| SP1 flavor of disk, as it might stand a better chance of working.
| I don't know the status of Windows 7 when it comes to booting
| on stuff like this.
|

I have a Win7 disk. But I'm not clear how that might be
useful. Boot it in the DVD drive and then...?

I *don't* have a Win8 disk and so far the owner hasn't
found an activation key, so I'm not sure I could reinstall
that way, even if I get the DVD boot working. (I thought
the "genuine license" sticker was always on these things,
but this laptop doesn't have it.)

What about the phenomenon of gettting bumped? The
boot typically goes through checking for disk errors,
fixing errors, etc. but then either goes blank or goes to
BIOS. At that point the hard disk has, at least sometimes,
disappeared from the BIOS. Is it possible that's actually
a boot or software issue and not a faulty SATA connection?


About the only reason for booting the faulty computer with
an installer DVD, would be to get to Command Prompt so you
can run CHKDSK. At the moment, there's no reason to
be running offline DISM or offline SFC scannow. You can
also use BCDEDIT, and do repairs to the BCD table if
it is damaged. So far, none of your symptoms suggest
booting to a Command Prompt is going to help.

It almost sounds like it's hitting a bad spot, and
going crazy (or freezing). You can pull the drive
and put it in your technician machine - the machine
with the clean power and working interfaces. Then you
can test there, to see if the symptoms are machine-related.

A disk drive can go "insane" if the power requirements are
not met. On a 3.5" drive, if the 12V rail hits 11V, the drive
will spin down and spin up again. A bit of droop is enough
to cause the processor to stop responding on the disk
controller card.

If the drive attempts to update the Service Area (=SA or
Track -1), and is unable to write, then it might try a
few "seek to zero" style head resets (clicking/ticking
sound), then give up and stop responding.

*******

On a Windows 8 laptop, the key is stored in the BIOS.
Each BIOS chip has a unique key (which is unlike the
scheme used on previous generations). The key is stored
in the ACPI table "MSDM" (you can fetch this in Linux).
There's really no particular reason to extract it, as
a Win8 retail disk, if you install it, it will
automatically activate, using the MSDM key. No other
version of OS, will activate using that key (directly).
The "free upgrade" to Windows 10 would have worked.
But that's not a normal promotion.

Win8/Win10 use MSDM. Since the key is stored in the BIOS
chip, there is no reason to print a COA sticker for the
outside of the machine.

For Win7 or older, the SLIC table in the BIOS, contains
information to support activation of "royalty OEM" OSes.
The SLIC table says "I'm an Asus", and if the OS
is an Asus OEM OS, it can be activated. The SLIC table
would activate WinXP/Vista/Win7, so if Asus had three
OSes for download, you could multi-boot with them. On
SLIC machines, the license key used by the OS is "generic".
A COA sticker with an emergency license key on it,
allows the owner to install a retail OS later, if the
hard drive fails. So SLIC is not a key, but it aids
activation, and the SLIC needs a COA to complete
the package.

Paul

  #7  
Old October 25th 17, 02:58 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
Default Asus X550J laptop

"Paul" wrote

..... Secure boot seems to be at least part of the problem.
With that turned off I'm getting either a login to reset
or error c000021a. Ophcrack can't find a password
needed for the reset. But it's progress. Thanks. I never
would have thought of secure boot acting like the hard
disk is loose!


  #8  
Old October 26th 17, 06:12 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default Asus X550J laptop

Mayayana wrote:
"Paul" wrote

.... Secure boot seems to be at least part of the problem.
With that turned off I'm getting either a login to reset
or error c000021a. Ophcrack can't find a password
needed for the reset. But it's progress. Thanks. I never
would have thought of secure boot acting like the hard
disk is loose!



http://aumha.org/a/stop.htm

"0xC000021A: STATUS_SYSTEM_PROCESS_TERMINATED

This occurs when Windows switches into kernel mode and
a user-mode subsystem, such as Winlogon or the
Client Server Runtime Subsystem (CSRSS), is compromised.
"

If you're getting that far along, then maybe it's a
malware problem ? Or perhaps, an AV program has
quarantined a file (false positive), trashing
the machine. If you know an AV is present,
see if you can figure out where the quarantines go.

Alternately, if you know the AV used, check the news
and see if a recent update caused mayhem amongst
the user population. A false positive usually makes
a big stink when a critical system file is moved.

*******

You can use DISM and SFC, both in offline mode,
to try and shore up system files.

Normally, on a modern OS, DISM can chech on the Internet.
If your Win10 booted, these can verify the content of
WinSXS (for system stuff). The first checks a flag.
The second does a read only scan. The third is read/write.
You're supposed to try them in sequence for some reason.

Dism /Online /Cleanup-Image /CheckHealth

Dism /Online /Cleanup-Image /ScanHealth

Dism /Online /Cleanup-Image /RestoreHealth

Life is tougher of you're running DISM from a WinPE
boot disk and a Command Prompt window.

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...0a77fc1?auth=1

Bleckfield replied on November 11, 2015

mkdir c:\mount

DISM.exe /mount-Image /ImageFile:d:\sources\install.wim /index:1 /mountdir:C:\mount\ /readonly

# That would mount the WIM as a file system, within C:\mount
# as the mount point. The mount point is merely a reference for
# the beginning of the file tree mounted on top of it.

DISM.exe /Online /Cleanup-image /Restorehealth /Source:c:\mount\windows /LimitAccess

# You can see that attempts to use the Windows folder on the
# mount point, as a "reference" for restoration. It should be
# able to restore any WinSXS files that happen to be on the
# installer DVD version. It would help (obviously) if you use
# a Win 8.1 disc of recent vintage - using a Win 8.0 DVD image
# on a Win 8.1 system, I bet it would complain.
#
# As for the LimitAccess option, this is what it does.
# I don't know if the network is even up, if you're running
# WinPE by booting the installer DVD to Command Prompt.

"You can use /LimitAccess to prevent the DISM tool
from using Windows Update as a repair source or
as a backup repair source for online images"

So that's a basic idea as to how you could repair WinSXS.
It may need some adjustments on your part, to get that
working properly.

If that finishes properly, the next thing is SFC, which
checks that the System32 files are OK. You would do this
in the same session. The trick here, is identifying which
drive letter is which. I hate that, in this environment.
Normally, X: is the Command Prompt OS partition. The C:
partition could actually be C:, or in some cases
it might be D: . I have to list disk contents until
I'm convinced I'm pointed at the right partition
to fix. The same issue arises, even with the previous
command sequence - you have to positively identify your
partitions, to pick "good" places to work :-)

sfc /scannow /offbootdir=d:\ /offwindir=d:\windows

So those two, would be intended to fix corrupted system
files. This would be on a system that has already passed
CHKDSK. And we all know, that using CHKDSK is a double-edged
sword. It can fix stuff, or it can break stuff. It's nice
to have a backup of the target, just in case you're
not born lucky.

You will need to salt these commands to taste. The
above is merely some leads on what the commands
*might* look like.

Note - Eternal September has an incoming feed problem
right now, which is damping the responses you might
normally get.

Good luck,
Paul
  #9  
Old October 28th 17, 01:22 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Neil
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Posts: 714
Default Asus X550J laptop

On 10/24/2017 8:47 PM, Paul wrote:

If the owner has valuable data on it, back up first,
before charting a course of action. The temptation
to run CHKDSK is probably overpowering, but see if
you can back it up first.

Â*Â* Paul


I discovered the hard way that Win8.x disregards CHKDSK (!), and SMART
eventually killed the drive's boot sectors with a similar experience as
Mayayana's. So, it may be that if the notebook drive is old enough that
SMART was relatively "new", it may not be 100% compatible with Win8.x,
either. I booted the computer from a Linux thumb drive to get what I
needed off of it and one of these days will install Linux on it, since
the drive appears to be otherwise OK.

--
best regards,

Neil
  #10  
Old October 28th 17, 02:40 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Asus X550J laptop

"Neil" wrote

| I discovered the hard way that Win8.x disregards CHKDSK (!), and SMART
| eventually killed the drive's boot sectors
|

Could you explain that? I thought SMART was just
a way to communicate diagnostic data from the drive.

It's been decided to get a new disk. The old one
is a WD10JPVX. I thought it was a hybrib but it
seems to be just a normal moving disk type. Do
you have any links to info that might be relevant?
I'm trying to talk my friend into an SSD, but they're
still very expensive.


  #11  
Old October 28th 17, 09:00 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Neil
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Posts: 714
Default Asus X550J laptop

On 10/28/2017 9:40 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"Neil" wrote

| I discovered the hard way that Win8.x disregards CHKDSK (!), and SMART
| eventually killed the drive's boot sectors
|

Could you explain that? I thought SMART was just
a way to communicate diagnostic data from the drive.

It's more than just info. SMART is a disk management tool built-in to
the drive's firmware that performs the same kinds of functions as
CHKDSK; it notes bad sectors, uses a portion of the drive's track to
store that info, reassigns the data to sectors on a different track, and
so on.

The issue I ran into is that bad sectors that should have been isolated
by CHKDSK was disregarded by Win8.1 and kept writing to those sectors
until it exceeded the SMART's track allocation space.

Do
you have any links to info that might be relevant?

I'd suggest doing a search to find info that best fits your level of
understanding of the hardware.

--
best regards,

Neil
  #12  
Old October 28th 17, 11:35 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Asus X550J laptop

"Neil" wrote

| | I discovered the hard way that Win8.x disregards CHKDSK (!), and SMART
| | eventually killed the drive's boot sectors
| |

I don't understand. I very, very rarely run CHKDSK, so
I don't see why it should have a big effect.

| The issue I ran into is that bad sectors that should have been isolated
| by CHKDSK was disregarded by Win8.1 and kept writing to those sectors
| until it exceeded the SMART's track allocation space.
|
| Do
| you have any links to info that might be relevant?
|
| I'd suggest doing a search to find info that best fits your level of
| understanding of the hardware.

You have no corroborating docs for your
theory? Then how do you know that's what
happened?


  #13  
Old October 28th 17, 04:30 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Asus X550J laptop

"Neil" wrote

| So, it may be that if the notebook drive is old enough that
| SMART was relatively "new", it may not be 100% compatible with Win8.x,
| either.

A follow-up note: The disk is only 3 years old.
It's an Asus laptop that came with Win8. So I'm
assuming it was a lemon disk. But I also wonder
about frivolous disk activity. There seem to be
an increasing number of programs that will keep
accessing the disk as part of the always-on service
model. The average person has no way of knowing
that's happening.

Also, this is my first time with a UEFI BIOS and
I didn't know the details. An aspect that no one
else seems to have caught: It turns out that UEFI is
still transitional. BootIt and UBCD won't boot without
the CSM module loaded. Memtest86 will. Win8 install
DVD will boot with CSM but won't access GPT partitions
unless booted with UEFI. Then there's also the SATA
vs IDE emulation.

The different settings cause different versions
of drives -- or no drive at all -- to show up in the
BIOS boot order. And there's no helpful message
when things are incompatible. It would be nice if it
showed something like: "Disk in DVD drive is not UEFI
compatible." Instead, the drive just disappears
from the boot order or fails to respond. That's crazy
that the drive should disappear entirely from the
BIOS boot order.

It took me a long time to figure out that it all
depended on a combination of SATA/IDE and UEFI/CSM
variations, and the various disks I was trying to
use. That led me on a wild goose chase of suspecting
loose motherboard connections.


  #14  
Old October 28th 17, 06:34 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Asus X550J laptop

Mayayana wrote:
"Neil" wrote

| So, it may be that if the notebook drive is old enough that
| SMART was relatively "new", it may not be 100% compatible with Win8.x,
| either.

A follow-up note: The disk is only 3 years old.
It's an Asus laptop that came with Win8. So I'm
assuming it was a lemon disk. But I also wonder
about frivolous disk activity. There seem to be
an increasing number of programs that will keep
accessing the disk as part of the always-on service
model. The average person has no way of knowing
that's happening.

Also, this is my first time with a UEFI BIOS and
I didn't know the details. An aspect that no one
else seems to have caught: It turns out that UEFI is
still transitional. BootIt and UBCD won't boot without
the CSM module loaded. Memtest86 will. Win8 install
DVD will boot with CSM but won't access GPT partitions
unless booted with UEFI. Then there's also the SATA
vs IDE emulation.

The different settings cause different versions
of drives -- or no drive at all -- to show up in the
BIOS boot order. And there's no helpful message
when things are incompatible. It would be nice if it
showed something like: "Disk in DVD drive is not UEFI
compatible." Instead, the drive just disappears
from the boot order or fails to respond. That's crazy
that the drive should disappear entirely from the
BIOS boot order.

It took me a long time to figure out that it all
depended on a combination of SATA/IDE and UEFI/CSM
variations, and the various disks I was trying to
use. That led me on a wild goose chase of suspecting
loose motherboard connections.


That's not how it's supposed to work.

My newest motherboard, when in UEFI+CSM mode,
offers *both* legacy and UEFI boot devices in
the list. In fact, if media is hybrid and supports
both modes of booting, there are *two* entries
in the popup boot menu, one for the CSM instance,
one for the UEFI instance. If I wanted a UEFI/GPT
install of Windows 8, then in the BIOS, I would
select the UEFI instance of the DVD drive on the
first boot.

I can boot anything I want as a result. Both
ecosystems are supported simultaneously. If I
want a UEFI only environment, I can disable
CSM and only UEFI things happen. I've only
done that the one time, for a series of experiments,
because my attempts to do the same in VirtualBox,
revealed the UEFI BIOS in VirtualBox is terrible.

My BIOS is also smart enough to search the disks
and find the first bootable one. When I have
a data drive and an OS drive connected, I don't
even need to interfere with the machine, and it
just does the right thing.

A good BIOS makes a big difference.

Paul
  #15  
Old October 28th 17, 11:22 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Asus X550J laptop

"Paul" wrote

| My newest motherboard, when in UEFI+CSM mode,
| offers *both* legacy and UEFI boot devices in
| the list. In fact, if media is hybrid and supports
| both modes of booting, there are *two* entries
| in the popup boot menu

I have something lik that. The DVD drive can have
up to 3 prepends in the boot menu: UEFI:, P2:, SATA:,
and there can be up to 2 instances, depending on
settings. But there are also instances where it
disappears.
In any case, I didn't know about UEFI/CSM and
no one told me. It took awhile to figure out that
there can be many variations. Many boot disks
won't boot to UEFI. But if it's already UEFI, with
GPT partitioning, then Windows can't install with
it set to CSM. Lots of details. I mention it here
because I expect there are a lot of people who
are not aware of just how quirky the system is.
I'm inclined to re-install to MBR. It's limited
to 2 TB, but I don't expect to be worrying about
that anytime soon. In the meantime it's got much
better general compatibility.


 




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