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Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 14th 17, 09:03 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Stijn De Jong
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Posts: 76
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG
lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files
and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the
canvas.

That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie
editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that
other editors make texting hard) and especially for arrowing fantastically
(again, all arrow, but there are a ton of ways to make curved arrows harder
than they need to be) and for circling (again, Paint.NET just does it
right).

The only problem with Paint.NET is that the resulting file is ALWAYS twice
the size (or so) than it needs to be. Dunno why, but I always have to run a
subsequent Irfanview batch re-run just to "convert" the JPEG to JPEG of the
same name but smaller size.

In the Irfanview freeware, of course, there is a setting for the percent
which I leave at the standard 80% and the first time you save in Paint.NET
it asks you for the percentage, which I also set at 80% (which is pretty
standard).

So why does Irfanview invariably save the JPG files smaller?
  #2  
Old February 14th 17, 10:00 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,718
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

In article , Stijn De Jong
wrote:

On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG
lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files
and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the
canvas.

That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie
editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that
other editors make texting hard)


paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you
need a dedicated text messaging app.
  #3  
Old February 14th 17, 10:32 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Tony Cooper[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 16:00:14 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Stijn De Jong
wrote:

On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG
lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files
and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the
canvas.

That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie
editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that
other editors make texting hard)


paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you
need a dedicated text messaging app.


You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the
English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"?

Even reading that he uses Paint.NET to add captions?

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
  #4  
Old February 14th 17, 10:42 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,718
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:


On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG
lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files
and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the
canvas.

That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie
editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that
other editors make texting hard)


paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you
need a dedicated text messaging app.


You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the
English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"?


that's called annotating, not texting.

texting has a well defined meaning which is not the same as annotating.
  #5  
Old February 14th 17, 10:52 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Tony Cooper[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 16:42:09 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:


On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG
lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG files
and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside the
canvas.

That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie
editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that
other editors make texting hard)

paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you
need a dedicated text messaging app.


You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the
English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"?


that's called annotating, not texting.

texting has a well defined meaning which is not the same as annotating.


Yes. It's obvious he made an error in the choice of his words. What
is also obvious is that there was no need to point it out.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
  #6  
Old February 14th 17, 10:53 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,718
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:


On Windows XP, I use Irfanview thumbnail-selected batch mode to JPG
lossless flip JPEG files and then Irfanview batch mode to shrink JPEG
files
and then add a canvas and then I use Paint.NET to add captions inside
the
canvas.

That works fine, especially since Paint.NET is one of the best freebie
editors on Windows for texting correctly (there are a zillion ways that
other editors make texting hard)

paint.net does not text, nor does any other image editor. for that, you
need a dedicated text messaging app.

You could not figure out that a native speaker of a language other the
English meant "...for adding text (to an image)"?


that's called annotating, not texting.

texting has a well defined meaning which is not the same as annotating.


Yes. It's obvious he made an error in the choice of his words. What
is also obvious is that there was no need to point it out.


there was.
  #7  
Old February 15th 17, 12:02 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

"Stijn De Jong" wrote

| So why does Irfanview invariably save the JPG files smaller?

It's hard to know without knowing the whole
process, and I've also never used Paint.Net. (It
always requires the latest version of .Net, which
is gigantic, so I've never tried it.)

I wonder if the size difference might be happening
from degradation. When you want to work on an
image you should save it as BMP or TIF and only save
as JPG, if you must for some reason, for a final save.
The only reason I know of to use JPG is to get a small
file size for use in webpages.

The problem with JPG is that every save is "lossy".
Even when you set no compression it's still dropping
out data. So if you save in IV, then save in PN, then
save again in IV, you're saving a more damaged, more
simple image each time. And the first image, if it started
as JPG, was already damaged. The final IV save may be
smaller because the image has been degraded and
therefore compresses better.


  #8  
Old February 15th 17, 06:19 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Stijn De Jong
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Posts: 76
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 18:02:22 -0500, Mayayana wrote:

It's hard to know without knowing the whole process,


Hi Mayayana,

Good point.
Here's an easily reproduceable test I just ran for this purpose.

1. I chose an interesting photo on the web from this news article:
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/0...t-a-stalemate/

2. I found various sizes for that photo, on the web:
a.jpg This photo saved to a 301 KB file that was 480x640 pixels.
http://www.mercurynews.com/wp-conten...de-0209-10.jpg

b.jpg This photo saved to a 107 KB file that was 768x1,024 pixels.
http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/57/04/25.../1024x1024.jpg

c.jpg This photo saved to a 1,439 KB file that was 1,661x2,142 pixels.
http://hips.htvapps.com/htv-prod-med...1486597218.jpg

Here is a screenshot of the original sizes:
http://i.cubeupload.com/2Vj9JN.jpg

Here is the original set of files:
a.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/gJZkIv.jpg
b.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/OFO2qM.jpg
c.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/p1DwzR.jpg

3. I kept the originals in a folder called (1) and copied them to folders
called (2) and (3).

4. In folder 2, I opened each file in Irfanview 4.35 on Windows XP Home,
and simply saved the files (using Control+S) to the same folder with the
settings of 80% with nothing else checked in the Irfanview save options
form.
http://i.cubeupload.com/1HpOBi.jpg

5. The result of the Irfanview "80% Quality" save was the following:
a.jpg went from 301 KB to 82 KB.
b.jpg went from 107 KB to 129 KB.
c.jpg went from 1,439 KB to 411 KB.

Screenshot:
http://i.cubeupload.com/F3rx3H.jpg

Here are the "80% Quality" saved set of files from Irfanview:
a.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/5CQvkX.jpg
b.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/mwVhkF.jpg
c.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/i4JRZB.jpg

6. In folder 3, I opened each file in Paint.NET v3.5.10 (Final Release
build 3.510.4297.28964). I saved each file using "Control+S" with the
Quality set to 80%.
http://i.cubeupload.com/0Ywebc.jpg

7. The result of the Paint.NET "80% Quality" save was the following:
a.jpg went from 301 KB to 86 KB.
b.jpg went from 107 KB to 153 KB.
c.jpg went from 1,439 KB to 417 KB.

Screenshot:
http://i.cubeupload.com/wVwxxW.jpg

Here are the "80% Quality" saved set of files from Paint.NET:
a.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/LcLpRF.jpg
b.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/Bjwneu.jpg
c.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/jBDOQl.jpg

Hmmmmmm... that's interesting. In this simplified baseline test, the file
sizes didn't double going from Irfanview to Paint.NET.

This is interesting because it's a good very simple baseline.

So my observed doubling of sizes must be due to something else other than
just "saving" the files, which happens when I "resized" in Irfanview, added
a canvas in Irfanview, and then "added captions" in Paint.NET and then
saved in Paint.NET (and then had to resize again in Irfanview).

Hmmmm... More tests needed since the baseline test shows that the sizes are
roughly equivalent. Do you concur?
  #9  
Old February 15th 17, 08:30 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Neil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 714
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On 2/15/2017 12:19 PM, Stijn De Jong wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 18:02:22 -0500, Mayayana wrote:

It's hard to know without knowing the whole process,


Hi Mayayana,

Good point.
Here's an easily reproduceable test I just ran for this purpose.

1. I chose an interesting photo on the web from this news article:
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/0...t-a-stalemate/


2. I found various sizes for that photo, on the web:
a.jpg This photo saved to a 301 KB file that was 480x640 pixels.
http://www.mercurynews.com/wp-conten...de-0209-10.jpg


b.jpg This photo saved to a 107 KB file that was 768x1,024 pixels.
http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/57/04/25.../1024x1024.jpg

c.jpg This photo saved to a 1,439 KB file that was 1,661x2,142 pixels.
http://hips.htvapps.com/htv-prod-med...1486597218.jpg


Here is a screenshot of the original sizes:
http://i.cubeupload.com/2Vj9JN.jpg

Here is the original set of files:
a.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/gJZkIv.jpg
b.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/OFO2qM.jpg
c.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/p1DwzR.jpg

3. I kept the originals in a folder called (1) and copied them to folders
called (2) and (3).

4. In folder 2, I opened each file in Irfanview 4.35 on Windows XP Home,
and simply saved the files (using Control+S) to the same folder with the
settings of 80% with nothing else checked in the Irfanview save options
form.
http://i.cubeupload.com/1HpOBi.jpg

5. The result of the Irfanview "80% Quality" save was the following:
a.jpg went from 301 KB to 82 KB.
b.jpg went from 107 KB to 129 KB.
c.jpg went from 1,439 KB to 411 KB.

Screenshot:
http://i.cubeupload.com/F3rx3H.jpg

Here are the "80% Quality" saved set of files from Irfanview:
a.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/5CQvkX.jpg b.jpg
http://i.cubeupload.com/mwVhkF.jpg c.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/i4JRZB.jpg
6. In folder 3, I opened each file in Paint.NET v3.5.10 (Final Release
build 3.510.4297.28964). I saved each file using "Control+S" with the
Quality set to 80%.
http://i.cubeupload.com/0Ywebc.jpg

7. The result of the Paint.NET "80% Quality" save was the following:
a.jpg went from 301 KB to 86 KB.
b.jpg went from 107 KB to 153 KB.
c.jpg went from 1,439 KB to 417 KB.

Screenshot:
http://i.cubeupload.com/wVwxxW.jpg

Here are the "80% Quality" saved set of files from Paint.NET:
a.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/LcLpRF.jpg
b.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/Bjwneu.jpg
c.jpg http://i.cubeupload.com/jBDOQl.jpg

Hmmmmmm... that's interesting. In this simplified baseline test, the file
sizes didn't double going from Irfanview to Paint.NET.
This is interesting because it's a good very simple baseline.

So my observed doubling of sizes must be due to something else other than
just "saving" the files, which happens when I "resized" in Irfanview, added
a canvas in Irfanview, and then "added captions" in Paint.NET and then
saved in Paint.NET (and then had to resize again in Irfanview).

Hmmmm... More tests needed since the baseline test shows that the sizes are
roughly equivalent. Do you concur?

A jpg file's size is less related to file sizeimage dimensions than to
other qualities of the image. You might save a bit of time by learning
the history of the format and some ways that the images are altered
during conversion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG

--
best regards,

Neil
  #10  
Old February 15th 17, 11:56 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

"Stijn De Jong" wrote

| So my observed doubling of sizes must be due to something else other than
| just "saving" the files, which happens when I "resized" in Irfanview,

Whaddaya mean, resized? I assumed these were
all images of the same pixel dimensions, but resaved
and with added text. (I'm not sure what you mean by
adding a canvas. A monotone rectandgle for text?)

It's interesting that IV seems to have brightened
the image saved, while PN didn't.

Assuming you save a JPG, work on it as a JPG,
and don't change the pixel dimensions, I would
expect that any change on file size is resulting
from lost data and therefore a simpler image
that compresses better. Why not save as TIF or
BMP, then do your work? From there you can then
try saving to JPG and see what you get. If all of
your saves are to JPG then you're not dealing with
the same image each time, even if you set JPG
compression at "100". (Or 0, depending on the
software.) JPG always loses data with each save.



  #11  
Old February 16th 17, 12:10 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
PeterN[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 22
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On 2/15/2017 5:56 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Stijn De Jong" wrote

| So my observed doubling of sizes must be due to something else other than
| just "saving" the files, which happens when I "resized" in Irfanview,

Whaddaya mean, resized? I assumed these were
all images of the same pixel dimensions, but resaved
and with added text. (I'm not sure what you mean by
adding a canvas. A monotone rectandgle for text?)

It's interesting that IV seems to have brightened
the image saved, while PN didn't.

Assuming you save a JPG, work on it as a JPG,
and don't change the pixel dimensions, I would
expect that any change on file size is resulting
from lost data and therefore a simpler image
that compresses better. Why not save as TIF or
BMP, then do your work? From there you can then
try saving to JPG and see what you get. If all of
your saves are to JPG then you're not dealing with
the same image each time, even if you set JPG
compression at "100". (Or 0, depending on the
software.) JPG always loses data with each save.




Common use for method of of adding canvas, in Photoshop.

https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/bluecorps/2015/11/12/adding-more-space-to-your-photoshop-canvas/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zhrQ1EyoTY



--
PeterN
  #12  
Old February 16th 17, 03:19 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

"PeterN" wrote


| Common use for method of of adding canvas, in Photoshop.
|
|
https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/bluecorps/2015/11/12/adding-more-space-to-your-photoshop-canvas/
|

I still don't really get it. It's the term itself.
Does it refer to the image as a 2-D space?
If I look in PSP I see resizing the canvas. It
seems to mean the same as creating a new
image and pasting the image onto that, which
is what I would do. So when Stijn refers to
"adding a canvas" does he mean that --
creating a larger background around the
original image?


  #13  
Old February 16th 17, 03:43 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Stijn De Jong
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 76
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 18:10:49 -0500, PeterN wrote:

Common use for method of of adding canvas, in Photoshop.

https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/bluecorps/2015/11/12/adding-more-space-to-your-photoshop-canvas/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zhrQ1EyoTY


Here is an example of an original file, and then the file with a canvas
batch added automatically by Irvanview, and then that file annotated in
three ways in Paint.NET (which does those three annotations better than any
other free program alive that I know of).

Please note I'm explaining below all the steps I do with batches of files
that contain hundreds upon hundreds of files - but in this particular case,
we're only working on a single file.

STARTING POINT:
1,439 KB file that was 1,661x2,142 pixels.
http://hips.htvapps.com/htv-prod-med...1486597218.jpg

1. This is the original 1,439KB photo that I saved from the above URL:
http://i.cubeupload.com/DAZw1N.jpg
a. Irfanview: File Open fname.jpg
b. Irfanview: File Thumbnails
c. Thumbnails: Options Select all
d. Thumbnails: File JPG Lossless Operations Lossless rotation with
selected files
e. Irfanview: File Start batch dialog with selected files
f. In the batch dialog, I set the "Options" to resize to 800x600 and to
save at 80% Quality (and nothing else). I also set the "Advanced" options
to add a white canvas to the bottom. If I want, I can set a trillion other
options, but I won't bother explaining them here.

Here is a screenshot of the Irfanview "Options":
http://i.cubeupload.com/l6gNYt.jpg

Here is a screenshot of the Irfanview "Advanced" options:
http://i.cubeupload.com/sz8Zar.jpg

2. This is the photo after Irfanview 80% batch resized it to 800x600 &
Irfanview added a white canvas to the bottom:
http://i.cubeupload.com/qfcHIm.jpg
It is now 149 KB.

3. This is the photo after annotating with Paint.NET:
http://i.cubeupload.com/wpMEIS.jpg
It is now 187 KB.

4. This is the photo re-re-sized by Irfanview at 80% Quality:
http://i.cubeupload.com/tYHmt8.jpg
It is now 184 KB.

Hmmm... again, it didn't show the almost doubling of size I normally see.

I think the starting point photo is the difference, since I normally start
with my own photos from my own camera, and not with photos from the web!

I need to do the test again, but with my own photos!
  #14  
Old February 16th 17, 03:43 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Stijn De Jong
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 76
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 18:10:49 -0500, PeterN wrote:

Common use for method of of adding canvas, in Photoshop.

https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/bluecorps/2015/11/12/adding-more-space-to-your-photoshop-canvas/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zhrQ1EyoTY


Here is an example of an original file, and then the file with a canvas
batch added automatically by Irvanview, and then that file annotated in
three ways in Paint.NET (which does those three annotations better than any
other free program alive that I know of).

Please note I'm explaining below all the steps I do with batches of files
that contain hundreds upon hundreds of files - but in this particular case,
we're only working on a single file.

STARTING POINT:
1,439 KB file that was 1,661x2,142 pixels.
http://hips.htvapps.com/htv-prod-med...1486597218.jpg

1. This is the original 1,439KB photo that I saved from the above URL:
http://i.cubeupload.com/DAZw1N.jpg
a. Irfanview: File Open fname.jpg
b. Irfanview: File Thumbnails
c. Thumbnails: Options Select all
d. Thumbnails: File JPG Lossless Operations Lossless rotation with
selected files
e. Irfanview: File Start batch dialog with selected files
f. In the batch dialog, I set the "Options" to resize to 800x600 and to
save at 80% Quality (and nothing else). I also set the "Advanced" options
to add a white canvas to the bottom. If I want, I can set a trillion other
options, but I won't bother explaining them here.

Here is a screenshot of the Irfanview "Options":
http://i.cubeupload.com/l6gNYt.jpg

Here is a screenshot of the Irfanview "Advanced" options:
http://i.cubeupload.com/sz8Zar.jpg

2. This is the photo after Irfanview 80% batch resized it to 800x600 &
Irfanview added a white canvas to the bottom:
http://i.cubeupload.com/qfcHIm.jpg
It is now 149 KB.

3. This is the photo after annotating with Paint.NET:
http://i.cubeupload.com/wpMEIS.jpg
It is now 187 KB.

4. This is the photo re-re-sized by Irfanview at 80% Quality:
http://i.cubeupload.com/tYHmt8.jpg
It is now 184 KB.

Hmmm... again, it didn't show the almost doubling of size I normally see.

I think the starting point photo is the difference, since I normally start
with my own photos from my own camera, and not with photos from the web!

I need to do the test again, but with my own photos!
  #15  
Old February 16th 17, 01:03 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

In message , Mayayana
writes:
[]
try saving to JPG and see what you get. If all of
your saves are to JPG then you're not dealing with
the same image each time, even if you set JPG
compression at "100". (Or 0, depending on the
software.) JPG always loses data with each save.

I've long suspected it to be as you say, but if that _is_ the case, what
does the 100% (or 0) actually _mean_?


--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If you're playing a killer monster, be very quiet. -
Anthony Hopkins, RT 2016/10/22-28
 




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