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Whatever happened to FireWire?



 
 
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  #16  
Old April 24th 15, 11:41 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default Whatever happened to FireWire?

cameo wrote:
On 4/23/2015 4:21 PM, Joe Morris wrote:
"cameo" wrote:
On 4/23/2015 12:31 PM, philo wrote:


Just take the drive out of the case and install it (temporarily) inside
your computer.


I don't uses desktops anymore. So I can't do it.


Assuming that the drive itself uses a standard IDE connection, for a few
bucks you can buy adapters (without a case) which let you connect a disk
drive (IDE, both 5-1/4 and 3.5" or SATA)to a USB port. I keep one both at
home and at the office; mine are by Bytecc but there are numerous other
brands.

That should work on any computer with decent USB drivers - the only
computer
I've had trouble with was a Surface.


I almost forgot that I had one of those universal drive adapters from
NewTechnology and I tried it out on this drive after I removed it from
the case. It's an 80 GB enhanced IDE drive by Western Digital and the
NewTech kit can be hooked up to it fine. Unfortunately the drive seems
to be dead, because the PC does not detect the drive when I stick in the
USB connector.
I have a sneaky suspicion that the adapter I bought on ebay may have
fried it with possibly bad pin polarity even though it could only be
stuck in one way. It has 4 pins, 2 of them Gnd, and the other two 5V and
12V. One cannot trust those Chinese made aftermarket parts.


Check your IDE drive jumpers.

Some USB to IDE dongles, only support "Master Only" drive jumpering.
My dongle, the dongle itself has a "Master/Slave" jumper on board.
Increasing the number of permutations and combinations.

Check your jumpering and try again.

Also, listen for the noise of a drive spinning.
As proof power is present.

Paul
Ads
  #17  
Old April 25th 15, 07:58 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
cameo[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 453
Default Whatever happened to FireWire?

On 4/24/2015 3:41 PM, Paul wrote:

Check your IDE drive jumpers.

Some USB to IDE dongles, only support "Master Only" drive jumpering.
My dongle, the dongle itself has a "Master/Slave" jumper on board.
Increasing the number of permutations and combinations.

Check your jumpering and try again.


This one can be jumpered 3 different ways:
1. Single or Master
2. Master, with Slave Present
3. Slave.

This is jumpered as a Single or Master, which actually requires no
jumper. I don't see why I would need to change it when that's how it
worked with the original power supply.

By the way, here is a link to the universal adapter and I use the 3.5"
IDE setup:

http://www.newertech.com/products/us...ldriveadap.php

and this is the 2-page User Manual:
http://www.newertech.com/downloads/u...apter_usb3.pdf

Also, listen for the noise of a drive spinning.
s proof ower is present.


That's my main problem: I don't feel any vibration or noise from the
drive when I apply the power to it even though an indicator light in the
adapter box lights up. I just hope maybe the 4-pin power connector
somehow does not provide a solid connection and some wiggling it might
fix it. It's just too late now and I may try it later this weekend.

  #18  
Old April 25th 15, 08:10 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default Whatever happened to FireWire?

cameo wrote:
On 4/24/2015 3:41 PM, Paul wrote:

Check your IDE drive jumpers.

Some USB to IDE dongles, only support "Master Only" drive jumpering.
My dongle, the dongle itself has a "Master/Slave" jumper on board.
Increasing the number of permutations and combinations.

Check your jumpering and try again.


This one can be jumpered 3 different ways:
1. Single or Master
2. Master, with Slave Present
3. Slave.

This is jumpered as a Single or Master, which actually requires no
jumper. I don't see why I would need to change it when that's how it
worked with the original power supply.

By the way, here is a link to the universal adapter and I use the 3.5"
IDE setup:

http://www.newertech.com/products/us...ldriveadap.php

and this is the 2-page User Manual:
http://www.newertech.com/downloads/u...apter_usb3.pdf

Also, listen for the noise of a drive spinning.
s proof ower is present.


That's my main problem: I don't feel any vibration or noise from the
drive when I apply the power to it even though an indicator light in the
adapter box lights up. I just hope maybe the 4-pin power connector
somehow does not provide a solid connection and some wiggling it might
fix it. It's just too late now and I may try it later this weekend.


This always gets people (including me)... :-)

From the instruction manual.

"Note that there is an on/off power switch on the power cord"

What they do, is they make the switch black colored, same
black color as the power cord, and they do that so
nobody will notice :-)

Paul
  #19  
Old April 25th 15, 07:50 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Gene E. Bloch[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,485
Default Whatever happened to FireWire?

On Sat, 25 Apr 2015 03:10:04 -0400, Paul wrote:

cameo wrote:
On 4/24/2015 3:41 PM, Paul wrote:

Check your IDE drive jumpers.

Some USB to IDE dongles, only support "Master Only" drive jumpering.
My dongle, the dongle itself has a "Master/Slave" jumper on board.
Increasing the number of permutations and combinations.

Check your jumpering and try again.


This one can be jumpered 3 different ways:
1. Single or Master
2. Master, with Slave Present
3. Slave.

This is jumpered as a Single or Master, which actually requires no
jumper. I don't see why I would need to change it when that's how it
worked with the original power supply.

By the way, here is a link to the universal adapter and I use the 3.5"
IDE setup:

http://www.newertech.com/products/us...ldriveadap.php

and this is the 2-page User Manual:
http://www.newertech.com/downloads/u...apter_usb3.pdf

Also, listen for the noise of a drive spinning.
s proof ower is present.


That's my main problem: I don't feel any vibration or noise from the
drive when I apply the power to it even though an indicator light in the
adapter box lights up. I just hope maybe the 4-pin power connector
somehow does not provide a solid connection and some wiggling it might
fix it. It's just too late now and I may try it later this weekend.


This always gets people (including me)... :-)

From the instruction manual.

"Note that there is an on/off power switch on the power cord"

What they do, is they make the switch black colored, same
black color as the power cord, and they do that so
nobody will notice :-)

Paul


Don't yuo just love that

I have had drives that had been idle for a long time not spin, but I was
able to start them (more than one drive, over time) by mechanical shock.

Method one: Shake the drive vigorously.

Method two: Tap the drive with the head of a screwdriver or some similar
object.

Method three: Bang the drive against a desktop, preferable with a
silicone potholder or something on the desktop as a shock minimizer.

These are methods of desperation, but you could tell that...

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)
  #20  
Old April 26th 15, 12:53 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,291
Default Whatever happened to FireWire?

In message , Gene E. Bloch
writes:
On Sat, 25 Apr 2015 03:10:04 -0400, Paul wrote:

[]
What they do, is they make the switch black colored, same
black color as the power cord, and they do that so
nobody will notice :-)

Paul


Don't yuo just love that

I have had drives that had been idle for a long time not spin, but I was
able to start them (more than one drive, over time) by mechanical shock.

Method one: Shake the drive vigorously.


In a rotational manner.

Method two: Tap the drive with the head of a screwdriver or some similar
object.

Method three: Bang the drive against a desktop, preferable with a
silicone potholder or something on the desktop as a shock minimizer.

These are methods of desperation, but you could tell that...

If all else fails, and there's something on the drive you want to
recover but not enough to pay a recovery company (serious money) (or
there's something private or otherwise that you don't trust anyone
with), _and_ you're _not_ going to _use_ the drive again, open it -
ideally in a positive-pressure filtered cupboard (I have access to one).
I did, only to find the heads (possibly only one of them) had stuck to
the surface: I was able to free it (by turning the spindle), and get
most of the data off the drive.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Eddie [Waring] underook elocution lessons in Leeds. After four weeks he was
asked to leave - all members in his class had begun to speak like him.
Stuart Hall, RT 7-13 August 2010
  #21  
Old April 26th 15, 03:57 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
cameo[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 453
Default Whatever happened to FireWire?

On 4/25/2015 12:10 AM, Paul wrote:

This always gets people (including me)... :-)

From the instruction manual.

"Note that there is an on/off power switch on the power cord"

What they do, is they make the switch black colored, same
black color as the power cord, and they do that so
nobody will notice :-)


I assure you that I used that switch as intended. It's actually a good
idea to have and not have to pull the wall plug temporarily.


  #22  
Old April 26th 15, 04:25 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
cameo[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 453
Default Whatever happened to FireWire?

On 4/25/2015 11:50 AM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:

Don't yuo just love that

I have had drives that had been idle for a long time not spin, but I was
able to start them (more than one drive, over time) by mechanical shock.

Method one: Shake the drive vigorously.

Method two: Tap the drive with the head of a screwdriver or some similar
object.

Method three: Bang the drive against a desktop, preferable with a
silicone potholder or something on the desktop as a shock minimizer.

These are methods of desperation, but you could tell that...

I don't think such drastic measures will do me any good if the real
reason is a fried IC board due to an incorrect pinout of that 4-pin
alternate power supply I boughth on ebay and I returned already.

I did some Voltage measurements on this NewerTechnology Universal
adapter and here is what I got on the 4-prong molex connector on both
the 5V and 12 V prongs:

Without connecting it to the HD (no power load):

5.12V and 12.38V

After connecting the power supply to the HD:

4.73V and 13.57V, respectively.

This doesn't make sense. The 12V pin's voltage should also drop under
load, not just the 5V pin's. Even the 5V pin voltage seems to drop too
much IMHO, especially since there is no USB load on it. I assume the 12V
is used to spin the HD platters.

BTW, I was able to measure the voltage under load because I used a
Y-cable extenion for that test.

Next, I think, I'll try to see if I could remove the IC board to see the
component side of it if there is some visible scorching on a component.
I would have done it already if I had the right size torx screw driver
the board is attached to the HD body. Then I might also visit some
eRecycling stores to find the exact same WD HD and cannibalize it for
its circuit board. Fortunately this seems to be a fairly ubiquitous HD
about 10-12 years ago. So maybe I get lucky.
Looks like a fun project, doesn't it? ;-)


  #23  
Old April 26th 15, 11:05 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,291
Default Whatever happened to FireWire?

In message , cameo
writes:
On 4/25/2015 11:50 AM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:

Don't yuo just love that

I have had drives that had been idle for a long time not spin, but I was
able to start them (more than one drive, over time) by mechanical shock.

[]
These are methods of desperation, but you could tell that...

I don't think such drastic measures will do me any good if the real
reason is a fried IC board due to an incorrect pinout of that 4-pin
alternate power supply I boughth on ebay and I returned already.

I did some Voltage measurements on this NewerTechnology Universal
adapter and here is what I got on the 4-prong molex connector on both
the 5V and 12 V prongs:

Without connecting it to the HD (no power load):

5.12V and 12.38V


I'd say acceptable, though a bit high.

After connecting the power supply to the HD:

4.73V and 13.57V, respectively.


Hmm. Most TTL ICs used to be specified to work over 5 ±¼V; the CMOS
equivalents are usually tolerant of a broader range. I'd have said that
that probably _would_ still work (though that's at the connector; could
be lower at the actual ICs).

This doesn't make sense. The 12V pin's voltage should also drop under
load, not just the 5V pin's. Even the 5V pin voltage seems to drop too
much IMHO, especially since there is no USB load on it. I assume the
12V is used to spin the HD platters.


That's the usual assumption. Although that's very high, I would _hope_
it hadn't fried anything.
[]
Next, I think, I'll try to see if I could remove the IC board to see
the component side of it if there is some visible scorching on a
component. I would have done it already if I had the right size torx


A lot of these boards have a surge-suppression device across the supply
line, which rumour has it can fail short (possibly without any visible
sign); I'm not convinced, but if it has, it'd stop the power reaching,
and unsoldering one end is not that difficult. But if that's the case,
the voltage should almost disappear under load ...

If you put your ear very close to the drive when you apply power, can
you hear _anything_? With mine where the head was stuck to the surface,
I heard a little tinkling or ticking - I presume that was the head
swinging mechanism trying to move.

screw driver the board is attached to the HD body. Then I might also
visit some eRecycling stores to find the exact same WD HD and
cannibalize it for its circuit board. Fortunately this seems to be a
fairly ubiquitous HD about 10-12 years ago. So maybe I get lucky.
Looks like a fun project, doesn't it? ;-)

Yes. Are you planning to continue to use the drive, or just intending to
rescue the data on it? If it comes to opening it, unless you've got a
_phenomenally_ clean room, I'd stick with the latter; if replacing the
board works, you _might_ be OK, though unless it's a particularly
expensive drive, I'd probably still not trust it.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Dictionary: Opinion presented as truth in alphabetical order. -John Ralston
Saul, essayist, novelist, and critic (1947- )
  #24  
Old April 26th 15, 07:34 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
cameo[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 453
Default Whatever happened to FireWire?

On 4/26/2015 3:05 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

5.12V and 12.38V


I'd say acceptable, though a bit high.

After connecting the power supply to the HD:

4.73V and 13.57V, respectively.


Hmm. Most TTL ICs used to be specified to work over 5 ±¼V; the CMOS
equivalents are usually tolerant of a broader range. I'd have said that
that probably _would_ still work (though that's at the connector; could
be lower at the actual ICs).

This doesn't make sense. The 12V pin's voltage should also drop under
load, not just the 5V pin's. Even the 5V pin voltage seems to drop too
much IMHO, especially since there is no USB load on it. I assume the
12V is used to spin the HD platters.


That's the usual assumption. Although that's very high, I would _hope_
it hadn't fried anything.
[]
Next, I think, I'll try to see if I could remove the IC board to see
the component side of it if there is some visible scorching on a
component. I would have done it already if I had the right size torx


A lot of these boards have a surge-suppression device across the supply
line, which rumour has it can fail short (possibly without any visible
sign); I'm not convinced, but if it has, it'd stop the power reaching,
and unsoldering one end is not that difficult. But if that's the case,
the voltage should almost disappear under load ...


What if the polarities were reversed, not just applying the 12V where 5V
was called for and vice-versa.?

If you put your ear very close to the drive when you apply power, can
you hear _anything_? With mine where the head was stuck to the surface,
I heard a little tinkling or ticking - I presume that was the head
swinging mechanism trying to move.


Not a sound from my HD.

screw driver the board is attached to the HD body. Then I might also
visit some eRecycling stores to find the exact same WD HD and
cannibalize it for its circuit board. Fortunately this seems to be a
fairly ubiquitous HD about 10-12 years ago. So maybe I get lucky.
Looks like a fun project, doesn't it? ;-)

Yes. Are you planning to continue to use the drive, or just intending to
rescue the data on it?


Just rescuing the data on it. The drive itself is not much worth these
days anyway.

If it comes to opening it, unless you've got a
_phenomenally_ clean room, I'd stick with the latter; if replacing the
board works, you _might_ be OK, though unless it's a particularly
expensive drive, I'd probably still not trust it.


Thanks for the tip. I'll keep it in mind.


  #25  
Old April 26th 15, 08:21 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default Whatever happened to FireWire?

cameo wrote:
On 4/26/2015 3:05 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

5.12V and 12.38V


I'd say acceptable, though a bit high.

After connecting the power supply to the HD:

4.73V and 13.57V, respectively.


Hmm. Most TTL ICs used to be specified to work over 5 ±¼V; the CMOS
equivalents are usually tolerant of a broader range. I'd have said that
that probably _would_ still work (though that's at the connector; could
be lower at the actual ICs).

This doesn't make sense. The 12V pin's voltage should also drop under
load, not just the 5V pin's. Even the 5V pin voltage seems to drop too
much IMHO, especially since there is no USB load on it. I assume the
12V is used to spin the HD platters.


That's the usual assumption. Although that's very high, I would _hope_
it hadn't fried anything.
[]
Next, I think, I'll try to see if I could remove the IC board to see
the component side of it if there is some visible scorching on a
component. I would have done it already if I had the right size torx


A lot of these boards have a surge-suppression device across the supply
line, which rumour has it can fail short (possibly without any visible
sign); I'm not convinced, but if it has, it'd stop the power reaching,
and unsoldering one end is not that difficult. But if that's the case,
the voltage should almost disappear under load ...


What if the polarities were reversed, not just applying the 12V where 5V
was called for and vice-versa.?

If you put your ear very close to the drive when you apply power, can
you hear _anything_? With mine where the head was stuck to the surface,
I heard a little tinkling or ticking - I presume that was the head
swinging mechanism trying to move.


Not a sound from my HD.

screw driver the board is attached to the HD body. Then I might also
visit some eRecycling stores to find the exact same WD HD and
cannibalize it for its circuit board. Fortunately this seems to be a
fairly ubiquitous HD about 10-12 years ago. So maybe I get lucky.
Looks like a fun project, doesn't it? ;-)

Yes. Are you planning to continue to use the drive, or just intending to
rescue the data on it?


Just rescuing the data on it. The drive itself is not much worth these
days anyway.

If it comes to opening it, unless you've got a
_phenomenally_ clean room, I'd stick with the latter; if replacing the
board works, you _might_ be OK, though unless it's a particularly
expensive drive, I'd probably still not trust it.


Thanks for the tip. I'll keep it in mind.



The reason the supply has readings like this:

4.73V and 13.57V

is the 5V rail is heavily loaded, the supply turns up
a common mode control for the shared transformer, and
the 12V gets elevated higher than it should. This is
called cross-loading on ATX supplies. They used a shared
transformer (one AC transformer driven by the switching
circuit), and the turns ratio of the transformer
establishes the normal potentials. When one rail is
heavily loaded, the switcher tries to compensate by
turning up the shared transformer. It is the combination
of seeing 5V rail going low, plus 12V rail going high,
that tells me:

a shared transformer supply is involved
the 5V rail is overloaded

The disk drive has components on the power entry points,
right after the Molex 1x4 power connector. There is
overshoot protection, for hot insertion and removal
of a hard drive. Even the IDE drives had this form of
protection. It is there, to snub "sparks" if the power
cable is pulled while the drive (and motor) are still
spinning. It's so an overshoot on the DC rail,
doesn't damage something. The components doing this,
are only rated to stop transients, and they burn up
if presented with a permanently out of spec voltage.

A poster once, came to the newsgroup with a drive problem.
And he figured this out on his own. There were a couple
burned components right after the power plug. And the power
supply had overvolted both rails. Removing those burned
things, got the drive running again, long enough to
get the data off.

On modern drives, I don't see the exact same component
configuration. I expect there is still overshoot
and undershoot protection on the rails, and if you
apply either reverse potential or swap 5V and 12V,
that some of those components get burned. On older
IDE drives, the components are facing outwards and
you can do a visual check near the power plug area, for
burn marks.

As for the strange Chinese adapter, if you own a multimeter,
you'd want to check the power plug end first, before
connecting it to something. You can "buzz" the enclosure,
from external four pin miniDIN to where the internal
wires show up on the adapter board in the enclosure,
to figure out the "pinout". Then with the Chinese
adapter powered but not connected, see if the voltages
on the Chinese end, make sense for how the enclosure
is wired. So you can figure out whether there will
be trouble, before plugging it in. You need the "ohms"
range on the multimeter, to buzz out the wiring on
the enclosure. And "volts" to check the Chinese adapter,
before a calamity happens. I end up doing this
sort of checking all the time, with those damn
barrel connectors (some of which are center "+"
and some are center "-").

Paul
  #26  
Old April 27th 15, 09:14 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
cameo[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 453
Default AcomData drive problem (was: Whatever happened to FireWire?)

On 4/26/2015 12:21 PM, Paul wrote:

The reason the supply has readings like this:

4.73V and 13.57V

is the 5V rail is heavily loaded, the supply turns up
a common mode control for the shared transformer, and
the 12V gets elevated higher than it should. This is
called cross-loading on ATX supplies. They used a shared
transformer (one AC transformer driven by the switching
circuit), and the turns ratio of the transformer
establishes the normal potentials. When one rail is
heavily loaded, the switcher tries to compensate by
turning up the shared transformer. It is the combination
of seeing 5V rail going low, plus 12V rail going high,
that tells me:

a shared transformer supply is involved
the 5V rail is overloaded

The disk drive has components on the power entry points,
right after the Molex 1x4 power connector. There is
overshoot protection, for hot insertion and removal
of a hard drive. Even the IDE drives had this form of
protection. It is there, to snub "sparks" if the power
cable is pulled while the drive (and motor) are still
spinning. It's so an overshoot on the DC rail,
doesn't damage something. The components doing this,
are only rated to stop transients, and they burn up
if presented with a permanently out of spec voltage.

A poster once, came to the newsgroup with a drive problem.
And he figured this out on his own. There were a couple
burned components right after the power plug. And the power
supply had overvolted both rails. Removing those burned
things, got the drive running again, long enough to
get the data off.

On modern drives, I don't see the exact same component
configuration. I expect there is still overshoot
and undershoot protection on the rails, and if you
apply either reverse potential or swap 5V and 12V,
that some of those components get burned. On older
IDE drives, the components are facing outwards and
you can do a visual check near the power plug area, for
burn marks.

As for the strange Chinese adapter, if you own a multimeter,
you'd want to check the power plug end first, before
connecting it to something. You can "buzz" the enclosure,
from external four pin miniDIN to where the internal
wires show up on the adapter board in the enclosure,
to figure out the "pinout". Then with the Chinese
adapter powered but not connected, see if the voltages
on the Chinese end, make sense for how the enclosure
is wired. So you can figure out whether there will
be trouble, before plugging it in. You need the "ohms"
range on the multimeter, to buzz out the wiring on
the enclosure. And "volts" to check the Chinese adapter,
before a calamity happens. I end up doing this
sort of checking all the time, with those damn
barrel connectors (some of which are center "+"
and some are center "-").

Paul


Whoa! Thanks for that detailed explanation, but I'm afraid it's way over
my head. You must be an electronics engineer, I figure. Unfortunately
your advice about the Chinese made adapter came too late for me. In any
case, after I got the right torx screw driver, the printed circuit board
(PCB) was easily detached from the HD and from what I could see on its
component side, there were no visible burn marks on any component.

I made a bunch of pictures of the disassembled parts and put them in a
Picasa album where you can see them all at the following (long!) link:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1131557...42/AcomData02?
authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCPvL74HU-4P1-gE&feat=directlink

You may have to concatenate this URL into a single line your in your
browser's address line if it's broken up at your end.

I wonder what you make of the pictures.


  #27  
Old April 27th 15, 10:43 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default AcomData drive problem

cameo wrote:
On 4/26/2015 12:21 PM, Paul wrote:

The reason the supply has readings like this:

4.73V and 13.57V

is the 5V rail is heavily loaded, the supply turns up
a common mode control for the shared transformer, and
the 12V gets elevated higher than it should. This is
called cross-loading on ATX supplies. They used a shared
transformer (one AC transformer driven by the switching
circuit), and the turns ratio of the transformer
establishes the normal potentials. When one rail is
heavily loaded, the switcher tries to compensate by
turning up the shared transformer. It is the combination
of seeing 5V rail going low, plus 12V rail going high,
that tells me:

a shared transformer supply is involved
the 5V rail is overloaded

The disk drive has components on the power entry points,
right after the Molex 1x4 power connector. There is
overshoot protection, for hot insertion and removal
of a hard drive. Even the IDE drives had this form of
protection. It is there, to snub "sparks" if the power
cable is pulled while the drive (and motor) are still
spinning. It's so an overshoot on the DC rail,
doesn't damage something. The components doing this,
are only rated to stop transients, and they burn up
if presented with a permanently out of spec voltage.

A poster once, came to the newsgroup with a drive problem.
And he figured this out on his own. There were a couple
burned components right after the power plug. And the power
supply had overvolted both rails. Removing those burned
things, got the drive running again, long enough to
get the data off.

On modern drives, I don't see the exact same component
configuration. I expect there is still overshoot
and undershoot protection on the rails, and if you
apply either reverse potential or swap 5V and 12V,
that some of those components get burned. On older
IDE drives, the components are facing outwards and
you can do a visual check near the power plug area, for
burn marks.

As for the strange Chinese adapter, if you own a multimeter,
you'd want to check the power plug end first, before
connecting it to something. You can "buzz" the enclosure,
from external four pin miniDIN to where the internal
wires show up on the adapter board in the enclosure,
to figure out the "pinout". Then with the Chinese
adapter powered but not connected, see if the voltages
on the Chinese end, make sense for how the enclosure
is wired. So you can figure out whether there will
be trouble, before plugging it in. You need the "ohms"
range on the multimeter, to buzz out the wiring on
the enclosure. And "volts" to check the Chinese adapter,
before a calamity happens. I end up doing this
sort of checking all the time, with those damn
barrel connectors (some of which are center "+"
and some are center "-").

Paul


Whoa! Thanks for that detailed explanation, but I'm afraid it's way over
my head. You must be an electronics engineer, I figure. Unfortunately
your advice about the Chinese made adapter came too late for me. In any
case, after I got the right torx screw driver, the printed circuit board
(PCB) was easily detached from the HD and from what I could see on its
component side, there were no visible burn marks on any component.

I made a bunch of pictures of the disassembled parts and put them in a
Picasa album where you can see them all at the following (long!) link:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1131557...42/AcomData02?
authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCPvL74HU-4P1-gE&feat=directlink

You may have to concatenate this URL into a single line your in your
browser's address line if it's broken up at your end.

I wonder what you make of the pictures.



This is from a slightly older WB800. Some of the chip markings
are a bit clearer. And I don't see any overshoot protection
on this one, or on your PCB either...

*******

The seven pin chip, with the soldertab on the opposite end,
is a regulator, and makes 2.6V, 3.3V, 8V, and accepts 5V and 12V input.
No datasheet seems to be available (IRU1239SC). Pin for pin sub
is ST3L01K7R from STMicro, and I could get a datasheet for it.

http://obrazki.elektroda.net/44_1178958806.jpg

(Link to a PDF for the voltage regulator)
http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/pa...L01K7R-pdf.php

There doesn't seem to be any protection on that thing. I
was thinking maybe it had shunt regulation on the input
rails (as the regulator is intended specifically for the
disk drive industry). That regulator can withstand up to
18V on both the 5V in and 12v in pins.

Your PCB still contain the classical LC filters for
5V and 12V. But each filter is treated differently. For
example, on your PCB, the inductors are missing. Which
means a parallel path must exist somewhere to provide
continuity via a zero ohm resistor. In the "elektroda"
picture above, one input inductor is present, and the
other one is replaced by a zero ohm resistor. Rather
a lot of "dynamic" design going on here.

*******

One thing you could consider doing, is using your multimeter,
determine whether the thing you connected, could have done
damage or not. Was the pinout actually wrong or not ? It
could be that the drive has stopped for other reasons.
Maybe your power source actually applied correct potentials.

Yet another test case for you... Connect only your
valid power source to the drive, and see (with nothing
connected to the data cable), whether it will spin or
not. You should be able to spin up and spin down a drive,
without a data connection. I occasionally do that
here on my SATA drives, when testing an external and
not wanting any clone drives to interact. I just unplug
the data cabling and leave the power connected.

*******

Power supply design practices, vary from one industry to
another. In the personal computer industry, the
ATX supplies at least, use a common transformer for all the
rails. And rely on turns ratio to establish the voltage
for each output. All the outputs are monitored, and if any
one output falls, the common transformer input
voltage is raised. Which "makes the heavily loaded rail
feel better", but overshoots on voltage on the rails
that didn't need that boost. Antec made at least one
supply, with separate circuits, or so they claimed. I've
also seen a picture of the inside of a high power ATX
power supply, which used separate circuits. An impressive
beast, and several inches longer than a standard ATX.

The adapter you were using, could be similar to ATX, as
there would hardly be room for a lot of transformers
in there. And they could be using a shared transformer
design. What's supposed to happen, is the circuit is
supposed to be designed to meet +/- 5% maximum variation.
And your 12V was well outside the 5% range.

On some rails in computer circuits, there is actually
a fair amount of headroom. Digital circuits don't
take kindly to excess voltage. The original TTL 5V
chips, could handle up to 7V. Later ones couldn't
take quite as much overvoltage. Whereas, circuits
with regulating elements, say powered by 12V,
they might easily take 18V without frying. There
are even three terminal regulators, that can take
50V or so. So not every circuit fries instantly
if outside the normal range. But if you swapped
the 12V and 5V on that drive, then any 5V logic
would be well and truly fried by the 12V.

The last logic family "that could take it", was 4000
series CMOS. Which ran from 5V normally, and
could accept up to 15V (and would run three times
faster while doing so). They don't make sweet logic
like that any more. Designers used to love that
stuff, and even though it was a digital logic family,
some guys would go overboard with the "analog tricks".
For example, with 4000 series, if you needed a timer,
you could hang an RC circuit on a logic chip input, and
the charging of the capacitor was your timer.

I'm suspecting something else has happened to your
drive. At least give the drive a "power up test" without
a data cable, and see how it goes (listen for spinup).
As spinup proves the motor controller chip is
working. The motor is three phase (for low torque
ripple), and a chip makes three phase signals,
controls acceleration of the spindle and so on.

Paul
  #28  
Old April 27th 15, 07:27 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
cameo[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 453
Default AcomData drive problem

On 4/27/2015 2:43 AM, Paul wrote:


This is from a slightly older WB800. Some of the chip markings
are a bit clearer. And I don't see any overshoot protection
on this one, or on your PCB either...

*******

The seven pin chip, with the soldertab on the opposite end,
is a regulator, and makes 2.6V, 3.3V, 8V, and accepts 5V and 12V input.
No datasheet seems to be available (IRU1239SC). Pin for pin sub
is ST3L01K7R from STMicro, and I could get a datasheet for it.

http://obrazki.elektroda.net/44_1178958806.jpg

(Link to a PDF for the voltage regulator)
http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/pa...L01K7R-pdf.php

There doesn't seem to be any protection on that thing. I
was thinking maybe it had shunt regulation on the input
rails (as the regulator is intended specifically for the
disk drive industry). That regulator can withstand up to
18V on both the 5V in and 12v in pins.

Your PCB still contain the classical LC filters for
5V and 12V. But each filter is treated differently. For
example, on your PCB, the inductors are missing. Which
means a parallel path must exist somewhere to provide
continuity via a zero ohm resistor. In the "elektroda"
picture above, one input inductor is present, and the
other one is replaced by a zero ohm resistor. Rather
a lot of "dynamic" design going on here.

*******

One thing you could consider doing, is using your multimeter,
determine whether the thing you connected, could have done
damage or not. Was the pinout actually wrong or not ? It
could be that the drive has stopped for other reasons.
Maybe your power source actually applied correct potentials.

Yet another test case for you... Connect only your
valid power source to the drive, and see (with nothing
connected to the data cable), whether it will spin or
not. You should be able to spin up and spin down a drive,
without a data connection. I occasionally do that
here on my SATA drives, when testing an external and
not wanting any clone drives to interact. I just unplug
the data cabling and leave the power connected.

*******

Power supply design practices, vary from one industry to
another. In the personal computer industry, the
ATX supplies at least, use a common transformer for all the
rails. And rely on turns ratio to establish the voltage
for each output. All the outputs are monitored, and if any
one output falls, the common transformer input
voltage is raised. Which "makes the heavily loaded rail
feel better", but overshoots on voltage on the rails
that didn't need that boost. Antec made at least one
supply, with separate circuits, or so they claimed. I've
also seen a picture of the inside of a high power ATX
power supply, which used separate circuits. An impressive
beast, and several inches longer than a standard ATX.

The adapter you were using, could be similar to ATX, as
there would hardly be room for a lot of transformers
in there. And they could be using a shared transformer
design. What's supposed to happen, is the circuit is
supposed to be designed to meet +/- 5% maximum variation.
And your 12V was well outside the 5% range.

On some rails in computer circuits, there is actually
a fair amount of headroom. Digital circuits don't
take kindly to excess voltage. The original TTL 5V
chips, could handle up to 7V. Later ones couldn't
take quite as much overvoltage. Whereas, circuits
with regulating elements, say powered by 12V,
they might easily take 18V without frying. There
are even three terminal regulators, that can take
50V or so. So not every circuit fries instantly
if outside the normal range. But if you swapped
the 12V and 5V on that drive, then any 5V logic
would be well and truly fried by the 12V.

The last logic family "that could take it", was 4000
series CMOS. Which ran from 5V normally, and
could accept up to 15V (and would run three times
faster while doing so). They don't make sweet logic
like that any more. Designers used to love that
stuff, and even though it was a digital logic family,
some guys would go overboard with the "analog tricks".
For example, with 4000 series, if you needed a timer,
you could hang an RC circuit on a logic chip input, and
the charging of the capacitor was your timer.

I'm suspecting something else has happened to your
drive. At least give the drive a "power up test" without
a data cable, and see how it goes (listen for spinup).
As spinup proves the motor controller chip is
working. The motor is three phase (for low torque
ripple), and a chip makes three phase signals,
controls acceleration of the spindle and so on.


Paul,
the tests I did WERE done without data load as I did not connect the USB
port to anything. Only the 4-prong Molex connector was connected.
Yet the drive did not stir.

I was wondering what, if any, information could I gain if I measured the
voltages on those 4 finger-like spring contacts that provide the
connection between the HD and its PCB. I could probably slide some
flattened wires between the connectors to provide test leads for the
multimater. I just don't know the polarity on those 4 fingers. Do you?

Thanks again.








  #29  
Old April 27th 15, 08:18 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default AcomData drive problem

cameo wrote:
On 4/27/2015 2:43 AM, Paul wrote:


This is from a slightly older WB800. Some of the chip markings
are a bit clearer. And I don't see any overshoot protection
on this one, or on your PCB either...

*******

The seven pin chip, with the soldertab on the opposite end,
is a regulator, and makes 2.6V, 3.3V, 8V, and accepts 5V and 12V input.
No datasheet seems to be available (IRU1239SC). Pin for pin sub
is ST3L01K7R from STMicro, and I could get a datasheet for it.

http://obrazki.elektroda.net/44_1178958806.jpg

(Link to a PDF for the voltage regulator)
http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/pa...L01K7R-pdf.php

There doesn't seem to be any protection on that thing. I
was thinking maybe it had shunt regulation on the input
rails (as the regulator is intended specifically for the
disk drive industry). That regulator can withstand up to
18V on both the 5V in and 12v in pins.

Your PCB still contain the classical LC filters for
5V and 12V. But each filter is treated differently. For
example, on your PCB, the inductors are missing. Which
means a parallel path must exist somewhere to provide
continuity via a zero ohm resistor. In the "elektroda"
picture above, one input inductor is present, and the
other one is replaced by a zero ohm resistor. Rather
a lot of "dynamic" design going on here.

*******

One thing you could consider doing, is using your multimeter,
determine whether the thing you connected, could have done
damage or not. Was the pinout actually wrong or not ? It
could be that the drive has stopped for other reasons.
Maybe your power source actually applied correct potentials.

Yet another test case for you... Connect only your
valid power source to the drive, and see (with nothing
connected to the data cable), whether it will spin or
not. You should be able to spin up and spin down a drive,
without a data connection. I occasionally do that
here on my SATA drives, when testing an external and
not wanting any clone drives to interact. I just unplug
the data cabling and leave the power connected.

*******

Power supply design practices, vary from one industry to
another. In the personal computer industry, the
ATX supplies at least, use a common transformer for all the
rails. And rely on turns ratio to establish the voltage
for each output. All the outputs are monitored, and if any
one output falls, the common transformer input
voltage is raised. Which "makes the heavily loaded rail
feel better", but overshoots on voltage on the rails
that didn't need that boost. Antec made at least one
supply, with separate circuits, or so they claimed. I've
also seen a picture of the inside of a high power ATX
power supply, which used separate circuits. An impressive
beast, and several inches longer than a standard ATX.

The adapter you were using, could be similar to ATX, as
there would hardly be room for a lot of transformers
in there. And they could be using a shared transformer
design. What's supposed to happen, is the circuit is
supposed to be designed to meet +/- 5% maximum variation.
And your 12V was well outside the 5% range.

On some rails in computer circuits, there is actually
a fair amount of headroom. Digital circuits don't
take kindly to excess voltage. The original TTL 5V
chips, could handle up to 7V. Later ones couldn't
take quite as much overvoltage. Whereas, circuits
with regulating elements, say powered by 12V,
they might easily take 18V without frying. There
are even three terminal regulators, that can take
50V or so. So not every circuit fries instantly
if outside the normal range. But if you swapped
the 12V and 5V on that drive, then any 5V logic
would be well and truly fried by the 12V.

The last logic family "that could take it", was 4000
series CMOS. Which ran from 5V normally, and
could accept up to 15V (and would run three times
faster while doing so). They don't make sweet logic
like that any more. Designers used to love that
stuff, and even though it was a digital logic family,
some guys would go overboard with the "analog tricks".
For example, with 4000 series, if you needed a timer,
you could hang an RC circuit on a logic chip input, and
the charging of the capacitor was your timer.

I'm suspecting something else has happened to your
drive. At least give the drive a "power up test" without
a data cable, and see how it goes (listen for spinup).
As spinup proves the motor controller chip is
working. The motor is three phase (for low torque
ripple), and a chip makes three phase signals,
controls acceleration of the spindle and so on.


Paul,
the tests I did WERE done without data load as I did not connect the USB
port to anything. Only the 4-prong Molex connector was connected.
Yet the drive did not stir.

I was wondering what, if any, information could I gain if I measured the
voltages on those 4 finger-like spring contacts that provide the
connection between the HD and its PCB. I could probably slide some
flattened wires between the connectors to provide test leads for the
multimater. I just don't know the polarity on those 4 fingers. Do you?

Thanks again.


I don't know what those four wires are for.

Based on their size and number, that might be enough
for three-phase motor drive (three phase wires and one
return wire). The contacts look like high current contacts,
rather than signal contacts for some kind of read channel.
And looking at the drive body, the PCB contacts on there
are obviously motor contacts.

They should have three phase AC voltage imposed on them.
And just listening to the assembled and powered drive,
tells you as much as attempting to make a measurement.
If the drive is "stuck", the microcontroller is
programmed to start/stop and jiggle the motor, in
an attempt to free it up. This is heard as a two-tone
police siren style noise (frequency change every half a
second). The sound can be heard with a stethoscope technique
on a stuck drive.

If nothing is heard, either the power isn't getting
there (motor controller not functional) or the microcontroller
has crashed and cannot start. Presumably the motor controller
does nothing, until it is programmed by the microcontroller.

The read channel connector area, is that 18 contact
area next to the power connector, on the component side
of the PCB. And there's not going to be any signals
on there, until spinup is complete. As the heads have
to load before there is any reason to look at the
read channel signals.

Paul

  #30  
Old April 27th 15, 11:35 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
cameo[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 453
Default AcomData drive problem

On 4/27/2015 12:18 PM, Paul wrote:
cameo wrote:
On 4/27/2015 2:43 AM, Paul wrote:


This is from a slightly older WB800. Some of the chip markings
are a bit clearer. And I don't see any overshoot protection
on this one, or on your PCB either...

*******

The seven pin chip, with the soldertab on the opposite end,
is a regulator, and makes 2.6V, 3.3V, 8V, and accepts 5V and 12V input.
No datasheet seems to be available (IRU1239SC). Pin for pin sub
is ST3L01K7R from STMicro, and I could get a datasheet for it.

http://obrazki.elektroda.net/44_1178958806.jpg

(Link to a PDF for the voltage regulator)
http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/pa...L01K7R-pdf.php

There doesn't seem to be any protection on that thing. I
was thinking maybe it had shunt regulation on the input
rails (as the regulator is intended specifically for the
disk drive industry). That regulator can withstand up to
18V on both the 5V in and 12v in pins.

Your PCB still contain the classical LC filters for
5V and 12V. But each filter is treated differently. For
example, on your PCB, the inductors are missing. Which
means a parallel path must exist somewhere to provide
continuity via a zero ohm resistor. In the "elektroda"
picture above, one input inductor is present, and the
other one is replaced by a zero ohm resistor. Rather
a lot of "dynamic" design going on here.

*******

One thing you could consider doing, is using your multimeter,
determine whether the thing you connected, could have done
damage or not. Was the pinout actually wrong or not ? It
could be that the drive has stopped for other reasons.
Maybe your power source actually applied correct potentials.

Yet another test case for you... Connect only your
valid power source to the drive, and see (with nothing
connected to the data cable), whether it will spin or
not. You should be able to spin up and spin down a drive,
without a data connection. I occasionally do that
here on my SATA drives, when testing an external and
not wanting any clone drives to interact. I just unplug
the data cabling and leave the power connected.

*******

Power supply design practices, vary from one industry to
another. In the personal computer industry, the
ATX supplies at least, use a common transformer for all the
rails. And rely on turns ratio to establish the voltage
for each output. All the outputs are monitored, and if any
one output falls, the common transformer input
voltage is raised. Which "makes the heavily loaded rail
feel better", but overshoots on voltage on the rails
that didn't need that boost. Antec made at least one
supply, with separate circuits, or so they claimed. I've
also seen a picture of the inside of a high power ATX
power supply, which used separate circuits. An impressive
beast, and several inches longer than a standard ATX.

The adapter you were using, could be similar to ATX, as
there would hardly be room for a lot of transformers
in there. And they could be using a shared transformer
design. What's supposed to happen, is the circuit is
supposed to be designed to meet +/- 5% maximum variation.
And your 12V was well outside the 5% range.

On some rails in computer circuits, there is actually
a fair amount of headroom. Digital circuits don't
take kindly to excess voltage. The original TTL 5V
chips, could handle up to 7V. Later ones couldn't
take quite as much overvoltage. Whereas, circuits
with regulating elements, say powered by 12V,
they might easily take 18V without frying. There
are even three terminal regulators, that can take
50V or so. So not every circuit fries instantly
if outside the normal range. But if you swapped
the 12V and 5V on that drive, then any 5V logic
would be well and truly fried by the 12V.

The last logic family "that could take it", was 4000
series CMOS. Which ran from 5V normally, and
could accept up to 15V (and would run three times
faster while doing so). They don't make sweet logic
like that any more. Designers used to love that
stuff, and even though it was a digital logic family,
some guys would go overboard with the "analog tricks".
For example, with 4000 series, if you needed a timer,
you could hang an RC circuit on a logic chip input, and
the charging of the capacitor was your timer.

I'm suspecting something else has happened to your
drive. At least give the drive a "power up test" without
a data cable, and see how it goes (listen for spinup).
As spinup proves the motor controller chip is
working. The motor is three phase (for low torque
ripple), and a chip makes three phase signals,
controls acceleration of the spindle and so on.


Paul,
the tests I did WERE done without data load as I did not connect the
USB port to anything. Only the 4-prong Molex connector was connected.
Yet the drive did not stir.

I was wondering what, if any, information could I gain if I measured
the voltages on those 4 finger-like spring contacts that provide the
connection between the HD and its PCB. I could probably slide some
flattened wires between the connectors to provide test leads for the
multimater. I just don't know the polarity on those 4 fingers. Do you?

Thanks again.


I don't know what those four wires are for.

Based on their size and number, that might be enough
for three-phase motor drive (three phase wires and one
return wire). The contacts look like high current contacts,
rather than signal contacts for some kind of read channel.
And looking at the drive body, the PCB contacts on there
are obviously motor contacts.

They should have three phase AC voltage imposed on them.
And just listening to the assembled and powered drive,
tells you as much as attempting to make a measurement.
If the drive is "stuck", the microcontroller is
programmed to start/stop and jiggle the motor, in
an attempt to free it up. This is heard as a two-tone
police siren style noise (frequency change every half a
second). The sound can be heard with a stethoscope technique
on a stuck drive.

If nothing is heard, either the power isn't getting
there (motor controller not functional) or the microcontroller
has crashed and cannot start. Presumably the motor controller
does nothing, until it is programmed by the microcontroller.

The read channel connector area, is that 18 contact
area next to the power connector, on the component side
of the PCB. And there's not going to be any signals
on there, until spinup is complete. As the heads have
to load before there is any reason to look at the
read channel signals.


Oh, I see your point. But where would the drive get the 3-phase current
when the power adapter is using only a single phase (120/220V) outlet?
Some kind of on-board inverter?



 




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