Whatever happened to FireWire?

In message , cameo
writes:
[]
Oh, I see your point. But where would the drive get the 3-phase current
when the power adapter is using only a single phase (120/220V) outlet?
Some kind of on-board inverter?

Yes, the three (or whatever) phases are locally generated. (The power
adapter may be running from AC mains/line, but only supplies DC to the
drive anyway.)


--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Experience is the comb life gives you after you lose your hair. -Judith Stearn

On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 01:14:22 -0700, cameo wrote:

On 4/26/2015 12:21 PM, Paul wrote:

The reason the supply has readings like this:

4.73V and 13.57V

is the 5V rail is heavily loaded, the supply turns up
a common mode control for the shared transformer, and
the 12V gets elevated higher than it should. This is
called cross-loading on ATX supplies. They used a shared
transformer (one AC transformer driven by the switching
circuit), and the turns ratio of the transformer
establishes the normal potentials. When one rail is
heavily loaded, the switcher tries to compensate by
turning up the shared transformer. It is the combination
of seeing 5V rail going low, plus 12V rail going high,
that tells me:

a shared transformer supply is involved
the 5V rail is overloaded

The disk drive has components on the power entry points,
right after the Molex 1x4 power connector. There is
overshoot protection, for hot insertion and removal
of a hard drive. Even the IDE drives had this form of
protection. It is there, to snub "sparks" if the power
cable is pulled while the drive (and motor) are still
spinning. It's so an overshoot on the DC rail,
doesn't damage something. The components doing this,
are only rated to stop transients, and they burn up
if presented with a permanently out of spec voltage.

A poster once, came to the newsgroup with a drive problem.
And he figured this out on his own. There were a couple
burned components right after the power plug. And the power
supply had overvolted both rails. Removing those burned
things, got the drive running again, long enough to
get the data off.

On modern drives, I don't see the exact same component
configuration. I expect there is still overshoot
and undershoot protection on the rails, and if you
apply either reverse potential or swap 5V and 12V,
that some of those components get burned. On older
IDE drives, the components are facing outwards and
you can do a visual check near the power plug area, for
burn marks.

As for the strange Chinese adapter, if you own a multimeter,
you'd want to check the power plug end first, before
connecting it to something. You can "buzz" the enclosure,
from external four pin miniDIN to where the internal
wires show up on the adapter board in the enclosure,
to figure out the "pinout". Then with the Chinese
adapter powered but not connected, see if the voltages
on the Chinese end, make sense for how the enclosure
is wired. So you can figure out whether there will
be trouble, before plugging it in. You need the "ohms"
range on the multimeter, to buzz out the wiring on
the enclosure. And "volts" to check the Chinese adapter,
before a calamity happens. I end up doing this
sort of checking all the time, with those damn
barrel connectors (some of which are center "+"
and some are center "-").

Paul

Whoa! Thanks for that detailed explanation, but I'm afraid it's way over
my head. You must be an electronics engineer, I figure. Unfortunately
your advice about the Chinese made adapter came too late for me. In any
case, after I got the right torx screw driver, the printed circuit board
(PCB) was easily detached from the HD and from what I could see on its
component side, there were no visible burn marks on any component.

I made a bunch of pictures of the disassembled parts and put them in a
Picasa album where you can see them all at the following (long!) link:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1131557...42/AcomData02?
authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCPvL74HU-4P1-gE&feat=directlink

You may have to concatenate this URL into a single line your in your
browser's address line if it's broken up at your end.

Suggestion: learn about tinyURL or Bitly.

They solve the problem about long links. Also, there are other similar
tools available, I think - in case you don't like those two.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On 4/27/2015 4:52 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 01:14:22 -0700, cameo wrote:

On 4/26/2015 12:21 PM, Paul wrote:

The reason the supply has readings like this:

4.73V and 13.57V

is the 5V rail is heavily loaded, the supply turns up
a common mode control for the shared transformer, and
the 12V gets elevated higher than it should. This is
called cross-loading on ATX supplies. They used a shared
transformer (one AC transformer driven by the switching
circuit), and the turns ratio of the transformer
establishes the normal potentials. When one rail is
heavily loaded, the switcher tries to compensate by
turning up the shared transformer. It is the combination
of seeing 5V rail going low, plus 12V rail going high,
that tells me:

a shared transformer supply is involved
the 5V rail is overloaded

The disk drive has components on the power entry points,
right after the Molex 1x4 power connector. There is
overshoot protection, for hot insertion and removal
of a hard drive. Even the IDE drives had this form of
protection. It is there, to snub "sparks" if the power
cable is pulled while the drive (and motor) are still
spinning. It's so an overshoot on the DC rail,
doesn't damage something. The components doing this,
are only rated to stop transients, and they burn up
if presented with a permanently out of spec voltage.

A poster once, came to the newsgroup with a drive problem.
And he figured this out on his own. There were a couple
burned components right after the power plug. And the power
supply had overvolted both rails. Removing those burned
things, got the drive running again, long enough to
get the data off.

On modern drives, I don't see the exact same component
configuration. I expect there is still overshoot
and undershoot protection on the rails, and if you
apply either reverse potential or swap 5V and 12V,
that some of those components get burned. On older
IDE drives, the components are facing outwards and
you can do a visual check near the power plug area, for
burn marks.

As for the strange Chinese adapter, if you own a multimeter,
you'd want to check the power plug end first, before
connecting it to something. You can "buzz" the enclosure,
from external four pin miniDIN to where the internal
wires show up on the adapter board in the enclosure,
to figure out the "pinout". Then with the Chinese
adapter powered but not connected, see if the voltages
on the Chinese end, make sense for how the enclosure
is wired. So you can figure out whether there will
be trouble, before plugging it in. You need the "ohms"
range on the multimeter, to buzz out the wiring on
the enclosure. And "volts" to check the Chinese adapter,
before a calamity happens. I end up doing this
sort of checking all the time, with those damn
barrel connectors (some of which are center "+"
and some are center "-").

Paul

Whoa! Thanks for that detailed explanation, but I'm afraid it's way over
my head. You must be an electronics engineer, I figure. Unfortunately
your advice about the Chinese made adapter came too late for me. In any
case, after I got the right torx screw driver, the printed circuit board
(PCB) was easily detached from the HD and from what I could see on its
component side, there were no visible burn marks on any component.

I made a bunch of pictures of the disassembled parts and put them in a
Picasa album where you can see them all at the following (long!) link:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1131557...42/AcomData02?
authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCPvL74HU-4P1-gE&feat=directlink

You may have to concatenate this URL into a single line your in your
browser's address line if it's broken up at your end.

Suggestion: learn about tinyURL or Bitly.

They solve the problem about long links. Also, there are other similar
tools available, I think - in case you don't like those two.

Thanks for the tip, though I use long links so rarely that even if I
learn it tomorrow, I might forget it by next time I need it.

On 4/27/2015 4:25 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , cameo
writes:
[]
Oh, I see your point. But where would the drive get the 3-phase
current when the power adapter is using only a single phase (120/220V)
outlet?
Some kind of on-board inverter?

Yes, the three (or whatever) phases are locally generated. (The power
adapter may be running from AC mains/line, but only supplies DC to the
drive anyway.)

OK, but I suppose I should still be able to measure their voltage if I
set it to AC mode, no? But then without knowing its frequency, it would
probably not give me meaningful results. I'm pretty sure the freq. is
higher than 50/60 Hz.

BTW, for whatever it's worth,I measured the voltage on the PCB Molex
pins while the PCB was NOT ATTACHED to the HD. They we 4.82V &
13.31V. I wonder if these values tell anything more to Paul.

On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 17:12:22 -0700, cameo wrote:

On 4/27/2015 4:52 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 01:14:22 -0700, cameo wrote:

On 4/26/2015 12:21 PM, Paul wrote:

SNIP

https://picasaweb.google.com/1131557...42/AcomData02?
authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCPvL74HU-4P1-gE&feat=directlink

You may have to concatenate this URL into a single line your in your
browser's address line if it's broken up at your end.

Suggestion: learn about tinyURL or Bitly.

They solve the problem about long links. Also, there are other similar
tools available, I think - in case you don't like those two.

Thanks for the tip, though I use long links so rarely that even if I
learn it tomorrow, I might forget it by next time I need it.

LOL! I do recognize that problem all too well!

But for me TinyURL is one that I use often enough to make me immune.

There are other ones I *have* forgotten, though - but I can't tell you
what they are because I've forgotten them (no, I'm not kidding).

TinyURL lets you install a menu item on the browser toolbar, which might
help.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 17:22:42 -0700, cameo wrote:

On 4/27/2015 4:25 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , cameo
writes:
[]
Oh, I see your point. But where would the drive get the 3-phase
current when the power adapter is using only a single phase (120/220V)
outlet?
Some kind of on-board inverter?

Yes, the three (or whatever) phases are locally generated. (The power
adapter may be running from AC mains/line, but only supplies DC to the
drive anyway.)

OK, but I suppose I should still be able to measure their voltage if I
set it to AC mode, no? But then without knowing its frequency, it would
probably not give me meaningful results. I'm pretty sure the freq. is
higher than 50/60 Hz.

BTW, for whatever it's worth,I measured the voltage on the PCB Molex
pins while the PCB was NOT ATTACHED to the HD. They we 4.82V &
13.31V. I wonder if these values tell anything more to Paul.

There are auto-ranging meters. All you have to do it is to connect, and
they choose the voltage range, and in DC, the polarity too.

You still need to tell them AC vs DC, but if you're wrong it doesn't
seem to damage them. And in AC some of them have a wide frequency range,
so that's not a problem either.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LCD-Mini-Aut...em33a046 7bb9


AKA http://tinyurl.com/lq95f2w

This is a random choice on ebay, where I searched for digital multimeter
auto range.

Actually not 100% random: I picked the first cheap one on page 1 :-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On 4/27/2015 5:25 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 17:12:22 -0700, cameo wrote:

On 4/27/2015 4:52 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 01:14:22 -0700, cameo wrote:

On 4/26/2015 12:21 PM, Paul wrote:

SNIP

https://picasaweb.google.com/1131557...42/AcomData02?
authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCPvL74HU-4P1-gE&feat=directlink

You may have to concatenate this URL into a single line your in your
browser's address line if it's broken up at your end.

Suggestion: learn about tinyURL or Bitly.

They solve the problem about long links. Also, there are other similar
tools available, I think - in case you don't like those two.

Thanks for the tip, though I use long links so rarely that even if I
learn it tomorrow, I might forget it by next time I need it.

LOL! I do recognize that problem all too well!

But for me TinyURL is one that I use often enough to make me immune.

There are other ones I *have* forgotten, though - but I can't tell you
what they are because I've forgotten them (no, I'm not kidding).

TinyURL lets you install a menu item on the browser toolbar, which might
help.

One reason I hate the Daylight Saving Time changes because I usually
forget how I adjusted my digital watch 6 months before. So I always have
to use my Owners Manual for that. I guess the iWatch would put an end to
all that torture.

Anyway, thanks for the TinyURL tip; I'll look into it.

Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 17:22:42 -0700, cameo wrote:

On 4/27/2015 4:25 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , cameo
writes:
[]
Oh, I see your point. But where would the drive get the 3-phase
current when the power adapter is using only a single phase (120/220V)
outlet?
Some kind of on-board inverter?

Yes, the three (or whatever) phases are locally generated. (The power
adapter may be running from AC mains/line, but only supplies DC to the
drive anyway.)
OK, but I suppose I should still be able to measure their voltage if I
set it to AC mode, no? But then without knowing its frequency, it would
probably not give me meaningful results. I'm pretty sure the freq. is
higher than 50/60 Hz.

BTW, for whatever it's worth,I measured the voltage on the PCB Molex
pins while the PCB was NOT ATTACHED to the HD. They we 4.82V &
13.31V. I wonder if these values tell anything more to Paul.

There are auto-ranging meters. All you have to do it is to connect, and
they choose the voltage range, and in DC, the polarity too.

You still need to tell them AC vs DC, but if you're wrong it doesn't
seem to damage them. And in AC some of them have a wide frequency range,
so that's not a problem either.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LCD-Mini-Aut...em33a046 7bb9


AKA http://tinyurl.com/lq95f2w

This is a random choice on ebay, where I searched for digital multimeter
auto range.

Actually not 100% random: I picked the first cheap one on page 1 :-)


If the motor controller was making a drive signal, the amplitude
could be adjusted for "constant current" operation. When the
motor spins up, the drive tries to stay within a particular
power envelope. So the motor controller will be making
some voltage, which gives a current of 3A (from the supply side).
Datasheets for hard drives (the detailed ones), used to have
an actual graph from a storage scope, showing current flow
versus time, so you could judge how well the microcontroller
does at staying within the power envelope at spinup.

The frequency is related to the final rotation rate and the
need to control the acceleration. The drive runs at 7200RPM,
divide by 60 and you get 120Hz. When the spindle is stuck,
the frequency applied is much higher - and it's hard to
say whether that is purposeful, or a side effect of how
the chip works. (I have an audio recording around here
somewhere, but can't find it.)

Each phase is probably generated via PWM (pulse width
modulation). That might be at, say 1MHz. This is just
to hint at how PWM, when averaged, gives you the sine wave.
PWM is used, so the power electronics switching the
power on and off, are saturated or open circuit, as
the state requires. With no intermediate "linear" states,
the motor controller chip doesn't get hot. Maybe in
an audio amplifier, this would be Class D ?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mangjhGqu01qf00w4.jpg

I can't really say for sure, because the datasheet
for L6278 from STMicro is unavailable. So I have no
"principle of operation" to go on.

*******

As for the voltage of the adapter, the voltage balance was
better at no load. It's possible the 5V rail on
the adapter is just "weak" and that's why the voltage
drops on it so much. The higher 12V actual value
suggests there really is no load and no attempt to
start the motor, for whatever reason.

If you could put your multimeter in series with
the 5V feed, you'd then be able to measure the current.
But this requires cutting a wire, which is an unpopular
technique. On your typical $20 multimeter, there is a
separate hole on the interface for the current measurement
shunt. So you have to change where the test lead plugs
into your multimeter, as well as placing the multimeter
in series with the load.

That's why I own a clamp-on DC ammeter.

http://d2h8l2jsc9bdw9.cloudfront.net...8/380947_1.jpg

You clamp that around the wire, where you want to know how
much current is flowing, and it has a Hall Probe semiconductor
near the hinge of the jaws. The jaws form a flux concentrator
circuit,and the magnetic flux passes through the Hall Probe.
A Hall Probe allows measuring both AC and DC current. There are
other techniques if you want just AC current. The Hall Probe
tends to drift a bit, which is why there is a "Zero" button on the
interface, to zero out the error when no current flows.

So that's how I measure current on stuff, without needing
to cut dangerous circuits. To measure AC line cord current,
I use a "cheater cord", a piece of line cord sliced down the
center, so I can get at the hot and neutral wires separately.
If you just place the jaws of the meter around an AC cord,
the mag field in each conductor cancels out :-) You have to
get just one of the wires in the jaws, to make a measurement
there. Whereas, on an ATX supply, you can take all the 5V
wires and stuff them in the jaws at the same time, and the meter
"sums" the current flow and gives total current.

That clamp-on meter and my regular multimeter, is
all I have for test equipment at home. No scope.

Paul

On 4/27/2015 8:19 PM, Paul wrote:
Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 17:22:42 -0700, cameo wrote:

On 4/27/2015 4:25 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , cameo
writes:
[]
Oh, I see your point. But where would the drive get the 3-phase
current when the power adapter is using only a single phase (120/220V)
outlet?
Some kind of on-board inverter?

Yes, the three (or whatever) phases are locally generated. (The power
adapter may be running from AC mains/line, but only supplies DC to the
drive anyway.)
OK, but I suppose I should still be able to measure their voltage if
I set it to AC mode, no? But then without knowing its frequency, it
would probably not give me meaningful results. I'm pretty sure the
freq. is higher than 50/60 Hz.

BTW, for whatever it's worth,I measured the voltage on the PCB Molex
pins while the PCB was NOT ATTACHED to the HD. They we 4.82V &
13.31V. I wonder if these values tell anything more to Paul.

There are auto-ranging meters. All you have to do it is to connect, and
they choose the voltage range, and in DC, the polarity too.

You still need to tell them AC vs DC, but if you're wrong it doesn't
seem to damage them. And in AC some of them have a wide frequency range,
so that's not a problem either.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LCD-Mini-Aut...em33a046 7bb9



AKA http://tinyurl.com/lq95f2w

This is a random choice on ebay, where I searched for digital multimeter
auto range.

Actually not 100% random: I picked the first cheap one on page 1 :-)


If the motor controller was making a drive signal, the amplitude
could be adjusted for "constant current" operation. When the
motor spins up, the drive tries to stay within a particular
power envelope. So the motor controller will be making
some voltage, which gives a current of 3A (from the supply side).
Datasheets for hard drives (the detailed ones), used to have
an actual graph from a storage scope, showing current flow
versus time, so you could judge how well the microcontroller
does at staying within the power envelope at spinup.

The frequency is related to the final rotation rate and the
need to control the acceleration. The drive runs at 7200RPM,
divide by 60 and you get 120Hz. When the spindle is stuck,
the frequency applied is much higher - and it's hard to
say whether that is purposeful, or a side effect of how
the chip works. (I have an audio recording around here
somewhere, but can't find it.)

Each phase is probably generated via PWM (pulse width
modulation). That might be at, say 1MHz. This is just
to hint at how PWM, when averaged, gives you the sine wave.
PWM is used, so the power electronics switching the
power on and off, are saturated or open circuit, as
the state requires. With no intermediate "linear" states,
the motor controller chip doesn't get hot. Maybe in
an audio amplifier, this would be Class D ?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mangjhGqu01qf00w4.jpg

I can't really say for sure, because the datasheet
for L6278 from STMicro is unavailable. So I have no
"principle of operation" to go on.

*******

As for the voltage of the adapter, the voltage balance was
better at no load. It's possible the 5V rail on
the adapter is just "weak" and that's why the voltage
drops on it so much. The higher 12V actual value
suggests there really is no load and no attempt to
start the motor, for whatever reason.

If you could put your multimeter in series with
the 5V feed, you'd then be able to measure the current.
But this requires cutting a wire, which is an unpopular
technique. On your typical $20 multimeter, there is a
separate hole on the interface for the current measurement
shunt. So you have to change where the test lead plugs
into your multimeter, as well as placing the multimeter
in series with the load.

That's why I own a clamp-on DC ammeter.

http://d2h8l2jsc9bdw9.cloudfront.net...8/380947_1.jpg


You clamp that around the wire, where you want to know how
much current is flowing, and it has a Hall Probe semiconductor
near the hinge of the jaws. The jaws form a flux concentrator
circuit,and the magnetic flux passes through the Hall Probe.
A Hall Probe allows measuring both AC and DC current. There are
other techniques if you want just AC current. The Hall Probe
tends to drift a bit, which is why there is a "Zero" button on the
interface, to zero out the error when no current flows.

So that's how I measure current on stuff, without needing
to cut dangerous circuits. To measure AC line cord current,
I use a "cheater cord", a piece of line cord sliced down the
center, so I can get at the hot and neutral wires separately.
If you just place the jaws of the meter around an AC cord,
the mag field in each conductor cancels out :-) You have to
get just one of the wires in the jaws, to make a measurement
there. Whereas, on an ATX supply, you can take all the 5V
wires and stuff them in the jaws at the same time, and the meter
"sums" the current flow and gives total current.

That clamp-on meter and my regular multimeter, is
all I have for test equipment at home. No scope.

Well, finding a replacement PCB for the HD might be more of a problem
than I thought if one is to believe to the following article:

http://datacent.com/datarecovery/hdd...WD800BB-00FJA0

WD800BB-00FJA0 is exactly the model number of my HD.

cameo wrote:
On 4/27/2015 8:19 PM, Paul wrote:
Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 17:22:42 -0700, cameo wrote:

On 4/27/2015 4:25 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , cameo
writes:
[]
Oh, I see your point. But where would the drive get the 3-phase
current when the power adapter is using only a single phase
(120/220V)
outlet?
Some kind of on-board inverter?

Yes, the three (or whatever) phases are locally generated. (The power
adapter may be running from AC mains/line, but only supplies DC to the
drive anyway.)
OK, but I suppose I should still be able to measure their voltage if
I set it to AC mode, no? But then without knowing its frequency, it
would probably not give me meaningful results. I'm pretty sure the
freq. is higher than 50/60 Hz.

BTW, for whatever it's worth,I measured the voltage on the PCB Molex
pins while the PCB was NOT ATTACHED to the HD. They we 4.82V &
13.31V. I wonder if these values tell anything more to Paul.

There are auto-ranging meters. All you have to do it is to connect, and
they choose the voltage range, and in DC, the polarity too.

You still need to tell them AC vs DC, but if you're wrong it doesn't
seem to damage them. And in AC some of them have a wide frequency range,
so that's not a problem either.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LCD-Mini-Aut...em33a046 7bb9




AKA http://tinyurl.com/lq95f2w

This is a random choice on ebay, where I searched for digital multimeter
auto range.

Actually not 100% random: I picked the first cheap one on page 1 :-)


If the motor controller was making a drive signal, the amplitude
could be adjusted for "constant current" operation. When the
motor spins up, the drive tries to stay within a particular
power envelope. So the motor controller will be making
some voltage, which gives a current of 3A (from the supply side).
Datasheets for hard drives (the detailed ones), used to have
an actual graph from a storage scope, showing current flow
versus time, so you could judge how well the microcontroller
does at staying within the power envelope at spinup.

The frequency is related to the final rotation rate and the
need to control the acceleration. The drive runs at 7200RPM,
divide by 60 and you get 120Hz. When the spindle is stuck,
the frequency applied is much higher - and it's hard to
say whether that is purposeful, or a side effect of how
the chip works. (I have an audio recording around here
somewhere, but can't find it.)

Each phase is probably generated via PWM (pulse width
modulation). That might be at, say 1MHz. This is just
to hint at how PWM, when averaged, gives you the sine wave.
PWM is used, so the power electronics switching the
power on and off, are saturated or open circuit, as
the state requires. With no intermediate "linear" states,
the motor controller chip doesn't get hot. Maybe in
an audio amplifier, this would be Class D ?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mangjhGqu01qf00w4.jpg

I can't really say for sure, because the datasheet
for L6278 from STMicro is unavailable. So I have no
"principle of operation" to go on.

*******

As for the voltage of the adapter, the voltage balance was
better at no load. It's possible the 5V rail on
the adapter is just "weak" and that's why the voltage
drops on it so much. The higher 12V actual value
suggests there really is no load and no attempt to
start the motor, for whatever reason.

If you could put your multimeter in series with
the 5V feed, you'd then be able to measure the current.
But this requires cutting a wire, which is an unpopular
technique. On your typical $20 multimeter, there is a
separate hole on the interface for the current measurement
shunt. So you have to change where the test lead plugs
into your multimeter, as well as placing the multimeter
in series with the load.

That's why I own a clamp-on DC ammeter.

http://d2h8l2jsc9bdw9.cloudfront.net...8/380947_1.jpg



You clamp that around the wire, where you want to know how
much current is flowing, and it has a Hall Probe semiconductor
near the hinge of the jaws. The jaws form a flux concentrator
circuit,and the magnetic flux passes through the Hall Probe.
A Hall Probe allows measuring both AC and DC current. There are
other techniques if you want just AC current. The Hall Probe
tends to drift a bit, which is why there is a "Zero" button on the
interface, to zero out the error when no current flows.

So that's how I measure current on stuff, without needing
to cut dangerous circuits. To measure AC line cord current,
I use a "cheater cord", a piece of line cord sliced down the
center, so I can get at the hot and neutral wires separately.
If you just place the jaws of the meter around an AC cord,
the mag field in each conductor cancels out :-) You have to
get just one of the wires in the jaws, to make a measurement
there. Whereas, on an ATX supply, you can take all the 5V
wires and stuff them in the jaws at the same time, and the meter
"sums" the current flow and gives total current.

That clamp-on meter and my regular multimeter, is
all I have for test equipment at home. No scope.

Well, finding a replacement PCB for the HD might be more of a problem
than I thought if one is to believe to the following article:

http://datacent.com/datarecovery/hdd...WD800BB-00FJA0

WD800BB-00FJA0 is exactly the model number of my HD.


They are "spreading fertilizer". Have a look at your
PCB again. Check the part number of the chip with
the burn mark. The chip on your PCB should be made
by a different manufacturer (like STmicro, which
is roughly SGS Thomson Microelectronics).

As for the firmware being in the service area (Track -1),
as far as I know they're all like that. The bootstrap is
on the PCB, the vast majority of code (command decoding)
is in the service area. The disk cannot respond to any outside
probe, until spinup is complete, the service area is read
and stored in RAM on the PCB. That would be normal, and
not a reason to "hate" your PCB.

There was a motor controller chip on a couple models of
Maxtor drives that used to burn up. But you would also have
some warning in the form of a hot chip to begin with. And the
Maxtor problem, probably predates your drive by around five
or more years.

Your PCB looks perfectly stable. The question will be,
how many WD800BB-00FJA0 were manufactured, and how many
of them failed and the PCBs got recycled by anxious
sellers on Ebay. I noticed the price on some of them
was relatively high.

Also, while looking at images of PCBs, there are likely
to be a number of different PCB designs. Which is why you
have to match that part number you've got, precisely.

There's no real reason for the PCB to be expensive, except
for the laws of supply and demand. A seller will ask a lot,
if they think the part number is obscure and "they have
the only one". Whereas a common one, everyone selling one,
the price will be more reasonable. Since the people who
have these things, likely didn't pay for them, the PCB
is all profit for them. I doubt very few original owners, are
parting out the PCBs on their hard drives. I haven't even
considered doing that here, and I have several I could do
that with. Antiques.

Paul

On 4/28/2015 12:59 AM, Paul wrote:

Well, finding a replacement PCB for the HD might be more of a problem
than I thought if one is to believe to the following article:

http://datacent.com/datarecovery/hdd...WD800BB-00FJA0

WD800BB-00FJA0 is exactly the model number of my HD.


They are "spreading fertilizer". Have a look at your
PCB again. Check the part number of the chip with
the burn mark. The chip on your PCB should be made
by a different manufacturer (like STmicro, which
is roughly SGS Thomson Microelectronics).

I also suspected that they had a dog in the fight because the were in
the data recovery business.

I don't understand what chip you are referring to as having burn marks.
I don't see any such chip on my PCB. Not even the one with 7 contacts
which, BTW, is also an IRU1239SC chip.

As for the firmware being in the service area (Track -1),
as far as I know they're all like that. The bootstrap is
on the PCB, the vast majority of code (command decoding)
is in the service area. The disk cannot respond to any outside
probe, until spinup is complete, the service area is read
and stored in RAM on the PCB. That would be normal, and
not a reason to "hate" your PCB.

This is pretty much how PC-s boot up.

There was a motor controller chip on a couple models of
Maxtor drives that used to burn up. But you would also have
some warning in the form of a hot chip to begin with. And the
Maxtor problem, probably predates your drive by around five
or more years.

Your PCB looks perfectly stable. The question will be,
how many WD800BB-00FJA0 were manufactured, and how many
of them failed and the PCBs got recycled by anxious
sellers on Ebay. I noticed the price on some of them
was relatively high.

Also, while looking at images of PCBs, there are likely
to be a number of different PCB designs. Which is why you
have to match that part number you've got, precisely.

I just came back from a large local PC recycling store and found some
WD800BB drives, but the rest of the model number wasn't "-00FJA0", so I
didn't chance getting one of them. Too bad, because I could have gotten
it for about $12. I might have to look at eBay or Amazon, I guess, but
only if I could return it for refund if it will not work for me.

Besides the WD800BB-00FJA0 model designation, there are some other
qualifiers on the HD label, such as Date and DCM. Do they also have to
match? What is DCM, anyway?

Then the PCB board itself, at the edge of the non-component side, close
to the 4-finger springy connectors, also has a designation:
2060-001130-012 REV A. How important is to match that Rev designation, too?

On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 20:13:15 -0700, cameo wrote:

On 4/27/2015 5:25 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 17:12:22 -0700, cameo wrote:

On 4/27/2015 4:52 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 01:14:22 -0700, cameo wrote:

On 4/26/2015 12:21 PM, Paul wrote:

SNIP

https://picasaweb.google.com/1131557...42/AcomData02?
authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCPvL74HU-4P1-gE&feat=directlink

You may have to concatenate this URL into a single line your in your
browser's address line if it's broken up at your end.

Suggestion: learn about tinyURL or Bitly.

They solve the problem about long links. Also, there are other similar
tools available, I think - in case you don't like those two.

Thanks for the tip, though I use long links so rarely that even if I
learn it tomorrow, I might forget it by next time I need it.

LOL! I do recognize that problem all too well!

But for me TinyURL is one that I use often enough to make me immune.

There are other ones I *have* forgotten, though - but I can't tell you
what they are because I've forgotten them (no, I'm not kidding).

TinyURL lets you install a menu item on the browser toolbar, which might
help.

One reason I hate the Daylight Saving Time changes because I usually
forget how I adjusted my digital watch 6 months before. So I always have
to use my Owners Manual for that. I guess the iWatch would put an end to
all that torture.

Well, then, don't lose the manual :-)

I keep some manuals in a standard location, because otherwise the
problem of remembering the method is compounded by the problem of
remembering where the manual is. Fact is, most of my manuals are
actually duplicated as PDFs in my Documents folder.

For my watch, I learned (yes, from the manual!) that there is no DST
setting. Just change the time by one hour...

Anyway, thanks for the TinyURL tip; I'll look into it.

YW.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

cameo wrote:


I just came back from a large local PC recycling store and found some
WD800BB drives, but the rest of the model number wasn't "-00FJA0", so I
didn't chance getting one of them. Too bad, because I could have gotten
it for about $12. I might have to look at eBay or Amazon, I guess, but
only if I could return it for refund if it will not work for me.

Besides the WD800BB-00FJA0 model designation, there are some other
qualifiers on the HD label, such as Date and DCM. Do they also have to
match? What is DCM, anyway?

Then the PCB board itself, at the edge of the non-component side, close
to the 4-finger springy connectors, also has a designation:
2060-001130-012 REV A. How important is to match that Rev designation, too?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Digi...ht_5149wt_1008

I think I would match them as closely as possible.

Seeing as the picture you present (PCB from 2003) has one fewer
chip than the picture I found (PCB from 2002).

The motor controller chip, is the one nearest the four contact
connector. The motor controller needs some low-value resistors
for functions such as current sensing or current limiting. And
since the motor controller is likely to be three-phase, you
should also see analog components arranged in a set of three
(in theory at least).

Some Ebay sellers, the advertising copy has multiple disk drive
part numbers in it. Which indicates the seller is "moving some
junk" and doesn't give a rats ass that it is of no usage
to you. That German advert, the seller appears to understand
the importance of accuracy. What the German seller didn't
do though, is use an actual photo of the PCB he is selling.
The picture does not match yours - chip count is different.

*******

Labeling concepts in electronics are a constant, but
practices will vary from one industry to another.

You start with the PCB. The blank PCB has a part number.

The PCB is populated by components. The designer prepares
a "stocklist" of items.

Several "assemblies" may be produced. Maybe I make
a motherboard "with sound" and one "without sound".
I would need two stocklists. A number or a sticker on
the board, takes note of the assembly. Using that
assembly number, I could dig up a complete document
package, with the original part stock list, as to what
should be soldered to the board.

Boards have firmware. That's an additional sticker on
motherboards. In the case of disk drive boards, the
firmware may be ROMmed into the large main chip. That
would be the bootstrap firmware, the firmware that
doesn't know the identity of the drive. The drive
electronic identity information is only in the
service area on the platter.

For example, I owned a Maxtor 40GB drive. When the
controller board lost access to the service area,
the controller board would report "Falcon 10GB". In
other words, it assumed the drive had one platter,
and reported bogus information. After one power cycle,
the disk would no longer respond to probes. So since
that drive failed while in service (controller lost
its mind while Windows was running), it managed to
return the "raw" identifier that the controller board
itself could return.

The part number on the whole drive, the WD800BB-00FJA0
part. That should really be unique from one shipped
drive to another. If a different PCB is connected, the
digits on the end should be changed. In that way, I would
hope the main drive numbering is enough. But seeing as
the drive in question, production spanned at least three
years, there are PCBs with different chip counts, that
makes me nervous. And I'd be matching as many identifiers
as I could get my hands on. One board uses a WDC branded
main chip, the other appears to be using Marvell
branded main controller. There have got to be
a few differences, along the way.

Paul

On 4/28/2015 4:21 PM, Paul wrote:
cameo wrote:


I just came back from a large local PC recycling store and found some
WD800BB drives, but the rest of the model number wasn't "-00FJA0", so
I didn't chance getting one of them. Too bad, because I could have
gotten it for about $12. I might have to look at eBay or Amazon, I
guess, but only if I could return it for refund if it will not work
for me.

Besides the WD800BB-00FJA0 model designation, there are some other
qualifiers on the HD label, such as Date and DCM. Do they also have to
match? What is DCM, anyway?

Then the PCB board itself, at the edge of the non-component side,
close to the 4-finger springy connectors, also has a designation:
2060-001130-012 REV A. How important is to match that Rev designation,
too?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Digi...ht_5149wt_1008


I think I would match them as closely as possible.

Seeing as the picture you present (PCB from 2003) has one fewer
chip than the picture I found (PCB from 2002).

The motor controller chip, is the one nearest the four contact
connector. The motor controller needs some low-value resistors
for functions such as current sensing or current limiting. And
since the motor controller is likely to be three-phase, you
should also see analog components arranged in a set of three
(in theory at least).

Some Ebay sellers, the advertising copy has multiple disk drive
part numbers in it. Which indicates the seller is "moving some
junk" and doesn't give a rats ass that it is of no usage
to you. That German advert, the seller appears to understand
the importance of accuracy. What the German seller didn't
do though, is use an actual photo of the PCB he is selling.
The picture does not match yours - chip count is different.

I've found this ad that seems to be for an identical PCB to mine, though
if you look the stuff in the DESCRIPTION tab, including the video clip,
they also seem to be in the recovery business. So ...
I'd like to hear your take on it.

http://www.donordrives.com/wd800bb-00fja0-2061-001130-300-ad-wd-ide-3-5-pcb.html?gclid=CPfauqa5msUCFdSTfgod_TQAYQ

There goes another long link. ;-)




*******

Labeling concepts in electronics are a constant, but
practices will vary from one industry to another.

You start with the PCB. The blank PCB has a part number.

The PCB is populated by components. The designer prepares
a "stocklist" of items.

Several "assemblies" may be produced. Maybe I make
a motherboard "with sound" and one "without sound".
I would need two stocklists. A number or a sticker on
the board, takes note of the assembly. Using that
assembly number, I could dig up a complete document
package, with the original part stock list, as to what
should be soldered to the board.

Boards have firmware. That's an additional sticker on
motherboards. In the case of disk drive boards, the
firmware may be ROMmed into the large main chip. That
would be the bootstrap firmware, the firmware that
doesn't know the identity of the drive. The drive
electronic identity information is only in the
service area on the platter.

For example, I owned a Maxtor 40GB drive. When the
controller board lost access to the service area,
the controller board would report "Falcon 10GB". In
other words, it assumed the drive had one platter,
and reported bogus information. After one power cycle,
the disk would no longer respond to probes. So since
that drive failed while in service (controller lost
its mind while Windows was running), it managed to
return the "raw" identifier that the controller board
itself could return.

The part number on the whole drive, the WD800BB-00FJA0
part. That should really be unique from one shipped
drive to another. If a different PCB is connected, the
digits on the end should be changed. In that way, I would
hope the main drive numbering is enough. But seeing as
the drive in question, production spanned at least three
years, there are PCBs with different chip counts, that
makes me nervous. And I'd be matching as many identifiers
as I could get my hands on. One board uses a WDC branded
main chip, the other appears to be using Marvell
branded main controller. There have got to be
a few differences, along the way.

Paul

cameo wrote:


I've found this ad that seems to be for an identical PCB to mine, though
if you look the stuff in the DESCRIPTION tab, including the video clip,
they also seem to be in the recovery business. So ...
I'd like to hear your take on it.

http://www.donordrives.com/wd800bb-00fja0-2061-001130-300-ad-wd-ide-3-5-pcb.html?gclid=CPfauqa5msUCFdSTfgod_TQAYQ


There goes another long link. ;-)

Well, I don't work for WDC, so I don't know their exact practice.

I try to view these things in terms of the "necessity" of doing
things a certain way.

AFAIK, the controller only contains bootstrap code. That bootstrap
must be able to operate the arm, the read channels, well enough
to read out the service area. Then, the code in the service area
can take over.

On the one hand, you have a couple of identifying numbers for the
PCBA (PCB and assembled set of components). Such could include
a particular instance of firmware. If we got two boards with the
same identifying numbers, one would hope that the identifiers are
enough for an employee to match a PCBA to a disk drive.

I could understand, if we were mixing the wrong PCBA from the
beginning of the production run, maybe there could be some
justification for mixing and matching bootstraps with PCBAs.
Swapping chips, using a JTAG header or a bed of nails, to
reprogram the hardware. I thought, based on the 12 character
identifier on some of these chips, that the code loaded in
them was write-once (ROM mask maybe). While they could be
EEPROM, if they were EEPROM based, I would have expected to
"read more tales" of people screwing with that aspect of
the drive.

So while on the one hand, I want to believe that donordrives
has my best interests at heart, that they're just angling for
a more expensive (data-recovery-like) service charge. Who
knows whether they changed anything or not ?

It makes no sense to "wed" the HDA and the PCB to one another.
Like exchange keys. It would be important for the PCBA to
know how to operate the electromechanical items inside the
HDA. Maybe there could be a production change requiring a
difference to be programmed into a PCB. But I would think
for a high-volume company, it would be insanity to be doing
this sort of thing all the time.

If I had to do what you're doing, I would have to be
content matching the numbers, and taking my chances.

Engineers seek to "modularize" things, to define interfaces,
and make the PCBA always do things according to the spec for
the HDA electromechanical parts. While they could "customize"
the PCBA for each HDA and HDA change, it would be a **** poor
way to run a business. They would need to keep a whole bunch
of bins with different PCBAs, there would be people doing
additional ROM flashing... and the hardware only costs $50
or so. There is no room for manual labor, no room for screwing
around. If you make a SKU, like WB800, and you intend to produce it
for three years, you should be prepared to make it exactly the
same way for those three years. If you need to cost reduce the
PCBA, and design a brand new one (with Marvell chip instead
of WDC chip), then the "form, fit, and function" has to provide
the same "services" to the HDA. This is modularization. You
don't make non-compatible changes, without good reason. If you
change enough stuff, you should be changing the SKU in the product
channel, and discontinuing the old one.

So while there might be some reason to be screwing with bootstrap
ROMs, as far as I'm concerned, taking a chance on matching the
part numbers, is worth a shot. If you don't want to do a PCBA
swap yourself, send it in for data recovery. There are data
recovery firms that don't charge unless they can recover
data, so if you really thought the drive was damaged beyond repair,
then they would not charge you for the analysis. However, if
they do get the data, it could be expensive. Probably not
as expensive as it was years ago, but still expensive.

Paul