"Useful" gadget.

On 12/10/2011, Char Jackson posted:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:24:56 -0500, Allen Drake
wrote:

In my opinion it is far better to use a debit card that is not
connected to any other account that uses overdraft protection. Keep a
limited amount in the account moving money to it from other account. I
limit my purchase to $500.00 per day and even I can't make a purchase
more than that without speaking to a human bank official. The worse
that can happen is you are separated from your $500 temporarily as the
bank guarantees it's return which does take some time to process. I
have never had a credit card and would never want one. Why would I
want to spend bank money when I have saved enough of my own from day
one of my 50 years of being in the work force?

I've heard an awful lot of financial advice over the past 50+ years,
but so far I don't think I've heard any 'financial experts' say it's
better to use a debit card versus a credit card. Credit cards have
multiple protections and advantages built in that debit cards don't
have.

I've never used a debit card and don't think I ever will.

Some gas stations in my area that use debit cards at the pump have been
scammed, and as you say, the consumer is not protected as well...

I agree with your last statement (that's rather obvious, given the
above remark).

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On 12/10/2011, Rodney Pont posted:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2011 13:52:12 -0800, Gene E. Bloch wrote:

In other words, I have no idea how entering other data could be
accomplished. Swiping a credit card probably requires client software
on the destination end[1]. Where would you accept a password?

[1] Brookstone says "And it works on virtually any website that accepts
credit card payments". To me, that seems to mean "any site that has
been willing to install the client software". They also say "Just plug
the USB cable into any available USB port" at various sorts of places.
This doesn't sound like it runs on software installed on the user's
computer.

All it needs to do is shove the number it's scanned into the field the
the cursor is in on the form, just like a keyboard. I presume it tells
the system that it's an input device.

In the days of PS/2 keyboards you would plug the scanner into the PS/2
keyboard port and then plug the keyboard into the PS/2 socket on the
scanner cable, I've got a bar code pen scanner that works in just this
way.

What you say is quite credible to me, and what I say is also (and J. P.
Gilliver seems to agree with me).

So I think it is currently a bit ambivalent.

I'm not sure how to find a definitive answer...

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 17:47:58 -0800, Gene E. Bloch
wrote:

On 12/10/2011, Char Jackson posted:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:24:56 -0500, Allen Drake
wrote:

In my opinion it is far better to use a debit card that is not
connected to any other account that uses overdraft protection. Keep a
limited amount in the account moving money to it from other account. I
limit my purchase to $500.00 per day and even I can't make a purchase
more than that without speaking to a human bank official. The worse
that can happen is you are separated from your $500 temporarily as the
bank guarantees it's return which does take some time to process. I
have never had a credit card and would never want one. Why would I
want to spend bank money when I have saved enough of my own from day
one of my 50 years of being in the work force?

I've heard an awful lot of financial advice over the past 50+ years,
but so far I don't think I've heard any 'financial experts' say it's
better to use a debit card versus a credit card. Credit cards have
multiple protections and advantages built in that debit cards don't
have.

I've never used a debit card and don't think I ever will.


Please explain why not.


Some gas stations in my area that use debit cards at the pump have been
scammed,

You learned this how?

and as you say, the consumer is not protected as well...


Can you provide an example of your claim?

Scammed how? I have spoken to my bank representative who informed me
I have nothing to worry about. They were more than willing to back up
any purchase made illegally.

I have stated clearly what would happen with use of a debit card with
only fear and rumors to the contrary.


I agree with your last statement (that's rather obvious, given the
above remark).

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:25:22 -0500, Allen Drake wrote:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 17:47:58 -0800, Gene E. Bloch


and as you say, the consumer is not protected as well...

Protections for credit-card users are a matter of Federal law.
Protections in *law* for debit cards are indeed weaker (or they were
the last time I checked). However, as a marketing think the Visa and
Mastercard organizations have extended to consumers the same
protections for debit cards that the law requires for credit cards.
While they *could* change that, it's unlikely.

But there's one problem you can't get around: if your debit card is
used fraudulently or a mistake is made, that money is gone from your
account until the dispute resolution procedure kicks in. In the
meantime, checks you may have written, or automatic payments you've
set up, may bounce because there's not enough money in your account.
That ripple effect is a lot less likely with credit cards, unless you
habitually max out your credit cards.



--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:25:22 -0500, Allen Drake
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 17:47:58 -0800, Gene E. Bloch
wrote:

On 12/10/2011, Char Jackson posted:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:24:56 -0500, Allen Drake
wrote:

In my opinion it is far better to use a debit card that is not
connected to any other account that uses overdraft protection. Keep a
limited amount in the account moving money to it from other account. I
limit my purchase to $500.00 per day and even I can't make a purchase
more than that without speaking to a human bank official. The worse
that can happen is you are separated from your $500 temporarily as the
bank guarantees it's return which does take some time to process. I
have never had a credit card and would never want one. Why would I
want to spend bank money when I have saved enough of my own from day
one of my 50 years of being in the work force?

I've heard an awful lot of financial advice over the past 50+ years,
but so far I don't think I've heard any 'financial experts' say it's
better to use a debit card versus a credit card. Credit cards have
multiple protections and advantages built in that debit cards don't
have.

I've never used a debit card and don't think I ever will.


Please explain why not.

This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure others can extend this
list with some thought.

Credit card advantages:
- Ability to dispute charges and request chargebacks
- Double warranty period
- Usage establishes credit history
- Usually limited to $50 liability
- Cash or points rewards
- Consumer protection provided by law
- Not a direct link to your bank account!

You can basically flip each of those around and they become
disadvantages for using a debit card. As Stan pointed out, some debit
cards give you some of the consumer protections required of credit
cards, but not all do. (My credit union ATM card is a debit card and
doesn't carry a big name logo like MC or Visa, so I'm doubtful that it
has any or many of the same protections and advantages of any credit
card.)

If you google "credit card vs debit card" you get a bunch of sites
that, distilled down, tell you that each has its pros and cons, but
the bottom line is that credit cards have far more advantages and far
fewer disadvantages than their debit card cousins.

http://www.google.com/search?q=credit%20card%20vs%20debit%20card

One interesting example: (but it comes from a credit card site)
http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/10-places-not-to-use-debit-card-1271.php

If you don't skim any of the other links, try this one for a fairly
comprehensive comparison of the two types of cards and their take on
which is safer or better in each situation. Credit cards clearly come
out ahead, as expected.

http://www.wisebread.com/credit-cards-vs-debit-cards-a-comprehensive-comparison

The more you read, the more you'll want to stop using a debit card.

--

Char Jackson

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 23:19:30 -0500, Stan Brown
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:25:22 -0500, Allen Drake wrote:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 17:47:58 -0800, Gene E. Bloch


and as you say, the consumer is not protected as well...

Protections for credit-card users are a matter of Federal law.
Protections in *law* for debit cards are indeed weaker (or they were
the last time I checked). However, as a marketing think the Visa and
Mastercard organizations have extended to consumers the same
protections for debit cards that the law requires for credit cards.
While they *could* change that, it's unlikely.

But there's one problem you can't get around: if your debit card is
used fraudulently or a mistake is made, that money is gone from your
account until the dispute resolution procedure kicks in. In the
meantime, checks you may have written, or automatic payments you've
set up, may bounce because there's not enough money in your account.
That ripple effect is a lot less likely with credit cards, unless you
habitually max out your credit cards.

I don't ever write checks any more. They are the weak link and as far
as I know many won't even accept checks any more. I don't even carry
case. Every purchase I make is always a debit card. I check my
accounts on line every day. The purchases I make are reflected
instantly, unlike a check. As I indicated I keep no more in my debit
account then I can afford to tie up if some how a fraudulent
transaction is made. It's better then carrying cash in your wallet. If
you lose it you are out your money. Unlike your debit card. I simply
can't find a weak link in this process. If you lose your credit card
you are responsible for every transaction until you report it lost. If
you have a line of credit for thousands you are out that money if you
don't realize it is missing and report it to your bank. I know someone
that thought she would get away with running up her bill and didn't
report it "stolen" for a week after she used it and spent all she
had. To her surprise she was not as smart as she thought she was.
Again, I don't use "overdraft protection" because I never write a
check. My bank called me recently to try to sell me a plan that cost
$14.00 a month. Something about identity theft protection. They told
me I had their "service" free for a month and asked my if I checked my
credit rating lately. She could not understand the idea of not having
credit cards and couldn't get it though her head that I was not about
to pay for a useless plan.

It seems as hard to get the average American to understand the
uselessness of a credit card either if you don't ever plan to spend
more then you have or live from paycheck to paycheck.

On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 00:19:05 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:25:22 -0500, Allen Drake
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 17:47:58 -0800, Gene E. Bloch
wrote:

On 12/10/2011, Char Jackson posted:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:24:56 -0500, Allen Drake
wrote:

In my opinion it is far better to use a debit card that is not
connected to any other account that uses overdraft protection. Keep a
limited amount in the account moving money to it from other account. I
limit my purchase to $500.00 per day and even I can't make a purchase
more than that without speaking to a human bank official. The worse
that can happen is you are separated from your $500 temporarily as the
bank guarantees it's return which does take some time to process. I
have never had a credit card and would never want one. Why would I
want to spend bank money when I have saved enough of my own from day
one of my 50 years of being in the work force?

I've heard an awful lot of financial advice over the past 50+ years,
but so far I don't think I've heard any 'financial experts' say it's
better to use a debit card versus a credit card. Credit cards have
multiple protections and advantages built in that debit cards don't
have.

I've never used a debit card and don't think I ever will.


Please explain why not.

This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure others can extend this
list with some thought.

Credit card advantages:
- Ability to dispute charges and request chargebacks
- Double warranty period
- Usage establishes credit history
- Usually limited to $50 liability
- Cash or points rewards
- Consumer protection provided by law
- Not a direct link to your bank account!


All this sounds good if you engage in the credit game. I do not. As I
explained I do not have my debit card linked to my money market
accounts. No overdraft protection as I would never be able to create
and overdraft situation. I would never need to dispute charges if as I
get the receipt on the spot. I don't care about double warrantee. not
worth it just to plat the credit game. Neither do I need "points". The
way it was explained to me I have the same protection other then not
being able to re coop right way. I bought an item online from an
outfit in China. It was defective and it took a while to get a
reimbursement but I did. My bank told me these guys agree to our terms
or they don't get to do their business in this country. They contacted
the vender and they compiled.

There is NO DIRECT LINK to any bank account I have.

It's like spending your cash but the bank is your wallet. Very simple
if one can get used to the idea of not having a credit card. I know
how difficult that must be.



You can basically flip each of those around and they become
disadvantages for using a debit card. As Stan pointed out, some debit
cards give you some of the consumer protections required of credit
cards, but not all do. (My credit union ATM card is a debit card and
doesn't carry a big name logo like MC or Visa, so I'm doubtful that it
has any or many of the same protections and advantages of any credit
card.)

If you google "credit card vs debit card" you get a bunch of sites
that, distilled down, tell you that each has its pros and cons, but
the bottom line is that credit cards have far more advantages and far
fewer disadvantages than their debit card cousins.

http://www.google.com/search?q=credit%20card%20vs%20debit%20card

One interesting example: (but it comes from a credit card site)
http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/10-places-not-to-use-debit-card-1271.php

If you don't skim any of the other links, try this one for a fairly
comprehensive comparison of the two types of cards and their take on
which is safer or better in each situation. Credit cards clearly come
out ahead, as expected.

http://www.wisebread.com/credit-cards-vs-debit-cards-a-comprehensive-comparison

The more you read, the more you'll want to stop using a debit card.


The bottom line is most of what you read and hear comes from the
banks that want you to use their credit cards regularly and often.

I will now study carefully the links you provided but it is doubtful
that after living a lifestyle without a need from a credit card I will
stop using my debit card. BTW I never have a need for an ATM if I
never carry cash so no charges apply.

On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 00:19:05 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:25:22 -0500, Allen Drake
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 17:47:58 -0800, Gene E. Bloch
wrote:

On 12/10/2011, Char Jackson posted:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:24:56 -0500, Allen Drake
wrote:

In my opinion it is far better to use a debit card that is not
connected to any other account that uses overdraft protection. Keep a
limited amount in the account moving money to it from other account. I
limit my purchase to $500.00 per day and even I can't make a purchase
more than that without speaking to a human bank official. The worse
that can happen is you are separated from your $500 temporarily as the
bank guarantees it's return which does take some time to process. I
have never had a credit card and would never want one. Why would I
want to spend bank money when I have saved enough of my own from day
one of my 50 years of being in the work force?

I've heard an awful lot of financial advice over the past 50+ years,
but so far I don't think I've heard any 'financial experts' say it's
better to use a debit card versus a credit card. Credit cards have
multiple protections and advantages built in that debit cards don't
have.

I've never used a debit card and don't think I ever will.


Please explain why not.

This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure others can extend this
list with some thought.

Credit card advantages:
- Ability to dispute charges and request chargebacks
- Double warranty period
- Usage establishes credit history
- Usually limited to $50 liability
- Cash or points rewards
- Consumer protection provided by law
- Not a direct link to your bank account!

You can basically flip each of those around and they become
disadvantages for using a debit card. As Stan pointed out, some debit
cards give you some of the consumer protections required of credit
cards, but not all do. (My credit union ATM card is a debit card and
doesn't carry a big name logo like MC or Visa, so I'm doubtful that it
has any or many of the same protections and advantages of any credit
card.)

If you google "credit card vs debit card" you get a bunch of sites
that, distilled down, tell you that each has its pros and cons, but
the bottom line is that credit cards have far more advantages and far
fewer disadvantages than their debit card cousins.

http://www.google.com/search?q=credit%20card%20vs%20debit%20card

One interesting example: (but it comes from a credit card site)
http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/10-places-not-to-use-debit-card-1271.php

If you don't skim any of the other links, try this one for a fairly
comprehensive comparison of the two types of cards and their take on
which is safer or better in each situation. Credit cards clearly come
out ahead, as expected.

http://www.wisebread.com/credit-cards-vs-debit-cards-a-comprehensive-comparison

The more you read, the more you'll want to stop using a debit card.


Ok, I read the info on your links. They overlook the idea of my
planning. My debit card is linked to a checking account that I keep a
limited amount of funds in. I allow no more then $500.00 per day even
if I want to make a purchase in a store. I do mostly online shopping.
If ordered a Nikon that cost about $2000. I had to contact the bank to
allow that money be taken from my account by the well known vender. I
bought a washer/dryer at Home Depot that cost well over $2000. I had
to call the bank from the store before that would allow that purchase
to go forward. I could lower the amount to whatever I wanted. It's
like carrying cash. I would never go out of the house with cash or a
check book. Checks are the weakest link as your routing number is on
every one.

For your every day credit hound the info on those sites are mostly
true. I am not one of the masses that owes thousand in credit card
bills.

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 17:52:02 -0800, Gene E. Bloch wrote:

In other words, I have no idea how entering other data could be
accomplished. Swiping a credit card probably requires client software
on the destination end[1]. Where would you accept a password?

[1] Brookstone says "And it works on virtually any website that accepts
credit card payments". To me, that seems to mean "any site that has
been willing to install the client software". They also say "Just plug
the USB cable into any available USB port" at various sorts of places.
This doesn't sound like it runs on software installed on the user's
computer.

All it needs to do is shove the number it's scanned into the field the
the cursor is in on the form, just like a keyboard. I presume it tells
the system that it's an input device.

In the days of PS/2 keyboards you would plug the scanner into the PS/2
keyboard port and then plug the keyboard into the PS/2 socket on the
scanner cable, I've got a bar code pen scanner that works in just this
way.

What you say is quite credible to me, and what I say is also (and J. P.
Gilliver seems to agree with me).

It does sound as if the marketing people are involved, 'don't confuse
the issue with facts' :-)

If the scanner does encrypt the card number it will need some software
on the server to decrypt it for use but then it wouldn't work with the
number of sites they suggest it will. I suspect they are simply
assuming https will be used, as someone up thread suggested earlier.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail rpont (at) gmail (dot) com

In message , Stan Brown
writes:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:25:22 -0500, Allen Drake wrote:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 17:47:58 -0800, Gene E. Bloch


and as you say, the consumer is not protected as well...

Protections for credit-card users are a matter of Federal law.

That's interesting; there is some protection for credit card users in
the UK too, I think because of the credit aspect.

On the other hand, some - mostly online, I think - places will accept
debit or credit cards, but charge more (either a percentage or a flat
rate) for credit cards; they say they are just passing on what the
credit card companies charge them. (Presumably the companies that don't
either have a better agreement with the card companies, or just absorb
the extra to get the extra trade [or some combination of both].) Some -
only one I've encountered, so far, but I assume there are more - _only_
take debit cards (E.on, my gas [heating not petrol] supplier, when being
paid by other than direct debit.)
[]
But there's one problem you can't get around: if your debit card is
used fraudulently or a mistake is made, that money is gone from your
account until the dispute resolution procedure kicks in. In the
meantime, checks you may have written, or automatic payments you've
set up, may bounce because there's not enough money in your account.
That ripple effect is a lot less likely with credit cards, unless you
habitually max out your credit cards.

All very true. I pay off my card bill every month (_not_ automatically)
too.

(My name's John by the way.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Live Faust, die Jung.

On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 00:19:05 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:
Credit card advantages:
- Usually limited to $50 liability

True with debit cards also. I didn't know this was a matter of law
(as opposed to the munificence of Visa and Mastercard), but your very
own reference says that it is:

http://www.wisebread.com/credit-cards-vs-debit-cards-a-comprehensive-comparison

That page rightly warns against repeating unverified information, but
then it turns around and makes a misleading contrast itself.

It says, of debit cards, "Consumers must try to resolve the dispute
with a merchant on their own before they contact their debit card
issuer."

In context, the page pretty clearly implies that credit cards are
easier, but that is not true. The US Fair Credit Billing Act says
that you must try to resolve the problem with the merchant before you
ask your CREDIT-card company for a chargeback. I don't deny the
anecdotes given in the page, but those were matters of the credit-
card companies doing something they were not legally obligated to do,
and I am sure similar anecdotes exist for debit cards.

Again, I personally won't have a debit card, for the reasons I gave
earlier. But in the interests of truth, we should not exaggerate the
differences.

And, as the age says, debit cards do have one major advantage: you
can't easily run up debts with them. For people who have trouble
managing their finances and resisting impulse purchases, debit cards
might be the better choice for this reason alone.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 02:28:04 -0500, Allen Drake wrote:
I would never need to dispute charges if as I
get the receipt on the spot.

"What, never?"
"No, never!"
"What, /NEVER/?"
"Hardly ever."

Aside from the possibility of a bank mistake -- once in a blue moon a
transaction might get recorded twice, for instance -- what if you
have a problem with the merchandise and the merchant refuses to take
it back? Or what if an employee uses your numbers to give herself a
little extra Christmas present?

Sure, these are unlikely, but they can happen with debit cards just
as they can happen with credit cards.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 02:28:04 -0500, Allen Drake wrote:
There is NO DIRECT LINK to any bank account I have.

If that's true, then you don't have a debit card.

Debit cards by definition are linked to some bank account, from which
the money is deducted at the time of purchase or as soon thereafter
as the purchase is processed.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 09:53:51 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
On the other hand, some - mostly online, I think - places will accept
debit or credit cards, but charge more (either a percentage or a flat
rate) for credit cards; they say they are just passing on what the
credit card companies charge them.

Apparently that's allowed in Europe; but in the US, both Visa and
Mastercard absolutely prohibit surcharges on purchases and minimum-
purchase requirements. A complaint to the merchant's bank almost
always produces quick action. Ten states also prohibit surcharges for
all credit cards, according to the Visa page below.

Mastercard:
http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchan...ual_public.pdf
(Sorry, I couldn't find a short HTML page on their site. Search the
PDF for surcharge and note the exception for Europe.)

Visa:
http://usa.visa.com/merchants/operat...ckoutfees.html
(I didn't check what Visa may have to say about surcharges in
Europe.)

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

On 11 Dec 2011, Stan Brown wrote in
alt.windows7.general:

Apparently that's allowed in Europe; but in the US, both Visa and
Mastercard absolutely prohibit surcharges on purchases and
minimum- purchase requirements. A complaint to the merchant's bank
almost always produces quick action. Ten states also prohibit
surcharges for all credit cards, according to the Visa page below.

Many gas stations around here have different prices for credit-vs-cash
purchases. I guess they get around the CC company rules by claiming the
cheaper cash purchase is a *discount* compared the credit purchase,
rather than the CC purchase incurring a surcharge compared to the cash.