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#76
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Window 8.1 tablets
Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:54:56 +0100, mechanic wrote: On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 07:45:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote: Alas, I *do* agree with that last statement. I think Microsoft has done a very poor job of making it clear that Windows 8 has two interfaces and you can use either or both. No I think they've made it clear that you can either login to the Desktop, or to a customisable Start screen. Why is that so hard to understand? Why? Because it's not true. Look at the *millions* of Windows 8 users who use the Metro/Modern interface all the time, and don't even realize they have a choice. There are probably quite a few of those yet that same population is more than likely skewed toward a majority that don't care....they just use it and are as productive as those who are aware of having a choice. -- ....winston msft mvp consumer apps |
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#77
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/2014 12:31 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 8:36 AM, Neil Gould wrote: Keith Nuttle wrote: On 10/19/2014 7:58 AM, Neil Gould wrote: Bob Henson wrote: On 18/10/2014 8:57 PM, Neil wrote: On 10/18/2014 10:02 AM, Bob Henson wrote: On 18/10/2014 2:46 PM, Wolf K wrote: On 2014-10-18 5:07 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote: snip People who use their computers for actual work are the ones not upgrading to the newest computer release and the newest operating system. You're disqualifying the "actual work" that people are doing on phones an tablets based on what empirical information??? Some people have been doing "real work" on tablets for decades, and from what I see, that trend is upward. Don't we have to define what "actual work"/"real work" is? If what you are doing is simply posting family photos to Facebook, or something like that, it would qualify as "real work" to you, and tablets and phones are just fine. But, if the work you're doing is War and Peace Part 2, or designing the next passenger airliner, that "real work" isn't going to be done a tablet or smart phone. I guess we just have to love the "Straw Man Extremes" to support a lost cause. 8-^ I consider "actual/real work" that for which one is being compensated. Such work has been done on tablets for decades and on phones at least since the Blackberry. -- best regards, Neil |
#78
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/14 11:17 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer wrote: Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same. I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new version, and better integration. It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem before, so why is it suddenly a problem now? The difference may be in the amount of difficulty in sharing data between the two OSes. Plus what your goal is with everything. In the Apple world, if you want to enter something into the app on the computer, and have it show up on the family's iPhone, it's a piece of cake. For example, the wife is grocery shopping, and the list is on the phone and the computer. You're at home, remember a couple items that need to be added to the list. Type them in on the computer, and in a few seconds, the list on the phone is updated. Is that possible on what you have? -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.5 Firefox 25.0 Thunderbird 24.6.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
#79
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/14 11:33 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:19:02 -0400, Wolf K wrote: [...] Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same. [...] Agreed, but they should look and function the same, allowing for differences such as screen size/orientation, touch, etc. Why?!! Who says so? What on earth is wrong with different gadgets looking like what they are and behaving differently because they are different? The controls on my TV don't look like the ones on my washing machine, and none of them look like the controls on the microwave, but it's never been a problem, and I can't imagine how any attempt to harmonise them would improve anything. If all the Window's systems look the same, and Apple systems look the same, it's simply easier to use. Everything looks and works the same, and you don't have to look for the same things in different places. You don't have to have the same OSes everywhere. And a Mac doesn't have to look like Windows. It's the KISS principle, which is what we should do with computers, but haven't been. It's like the push back I got in an open source mailing list. I and some others wanted to program to save the work in a file format that was not native. Of course that would save the time and effort to save in the native format, then open another application or write a batch file to convert to the format desired. That type of mundane work is what computers excel at, and it should be available. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.5 Firefox 25.0 Thunderbird 24.6.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
#80
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 17/10/2014 23:51, Neil wrote:
I noticed that there are a number of new tablets from 7-10" starting below $100US. Looks like the Metro UI gamble may start to make some money for MS? you guys are really lucky to get cheap Microsoft OS loaded tablets. We have to pay premium price for these products. For example the new Tesco hudl2 costs £129 (convert this to USD). http://www.tesco.com/direct/hudl2-8-wi-fi-tablet/454-7907.prd?sc_cmp=tp1_ppc_g_+hudl%20+2_b&gclid=CMj14 6zBucECFbPJtAodR2AApw I am sticking with DELL branded products for the time being because of the online support they provide. I have now accumulated 5 laptops and 1 desktop preloaded with Windows 8.1. The desktop is with 16GB ram and 2 TB HD; the laptops are with 8GB ram and 1TB HD. Can't live without DELL and/or Microsoft. No Linux junk in the house. |
#81
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/18/2014 10:52 PM, philo wrote:
On 10/18/2014 08:21 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote: Unfortunately, if you left click on the MS Icon, it goes right back to tiles...a minor annoyance for me but a complete nightmare for those who have learned by rote. In Windows XP if I right click on an desktop Icon I get a menu, If I left click on it it opens the folder or program. Same difference But in XP there is /no/ way to get to "tiles" I don't want to see them at all , no matter what... I use Classic Menu. In the settings not only can you choose to boot into the desktop you can choose not to show the apps in the start menu. We never see the Start page or the apps unless we purposely go there, which we never do. I uninstalled them, the ones that I could, unpinned the rest. You can probably do the samething with any start menu restorer program. -- Caver1 |
#82
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/2014 07:53 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Caver1 wrote: On 10/18/2014 03:57 PM, Neil wrote: [...] For those who want to use the same apps on their desktop, with data in sync via a cloud server, that notion is completely useless. So, you're betting on the Luddites, and I'm betting on the rest of the world. ;-) You can have your data synced in the cloud with real programs not just apps. The younger generations that only want to use their phones or maybe tablets don't do any real work on them. Based on the conversation "personal cloud drives", I'd say that most people are not prepared to sync the data from their old programs between their various devices, even if they ran on them, which they don't. How interesting is it that you think you know what all forms of "real work" are, and that by definition, if one is using a phone or a tablet, they can't possibly be doing it? Take another look at the original Blackberry user base, and the absurdity of that notion becomes immediately obvious. Syncing is not only between different devices it can also be between different computers. ie home and work, laptop on the road and desktop at home..... I would really like to see someone use Autocad or the equivalent on a phone or tablet and get any real work done. Maybe Media production. Good Design work that has any complexity.... -- Caver1 |
#83
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/2014 08:00 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/19/2014 4:46 AM, Bob Henson wrote: On 18/10/2014 9:14 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote: On 10/18/2014 10:53 AM, philo wrote: On 10/18/2014 09:03 AM, Bob Henson wrote: That's correct and exactly the reason I think Microsoft got it wrong. Too many people just knows computers by rote and to even figure out how to switch from Metro to Classic is beyond their capability. I upgraded to 8.1 from 8.0, and it defaulted to the desktop, not Metro. I think I read somewhere that 8.1 checks to see if you have a touch screen. If so, it defaults to Metro. If not, it defaults to the desktop. You can *make* 8.1 default to the desktop, but as installed it defaults to Metro. True, but what I found annoying is that if one hits the wrong key somewhere, it pops back over to Metro. Installing a 3rd party program such as Classic Shell fixes that. You do not need a 3rd party program to make these fixes. Most can be done from the Properties Navigation tab on the Desktop. The rest can be changed by right clicking on the MS Icon on the Desktop Toolbar, and selecting Control Panel. Many are in the Appearance and Personalization section. How do you add back a working menu system without a third party program? What Menu System do you want. When you right click on the MS icon you get a complete menu of the computer functions. In the Control Panel if you click View By in the upper right corner and change to large/Small Icons, you have a screen quite similar to the one in Windows XP. No programs. Nothing on the task bar for programs unless you create it. Yes you can click on the file manager on the taskbar, then go to Programs/Programs(x86), then scroll down to the program folder, then scroll down to the executable, then click on it, then close file manager, then start using your program, everytime. -- Caver1 |
#84
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/2014 10:29 AM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:54:56 +0100, mechanic wrote: On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 07:45:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote: Alas, I *do* agree with that last statement. I think Microsoft has done a very poor job of making it clear that Windows 8 has two interfaces and you can use either or both. No I think they've made it clear that you can either login to the Desktop, or to a customisable Start screen. Why is that so hard to understand? Why? Because it's not true. Look at the *millions* of Windows 8 users who use the Metro/Modern interface all the time, and don't even realize they have a choice. Those apps do not have the capabilities that the programs that they mimic have. One good example is the mail app. -- Caver1 |
#85
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/2014 11:36 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2014-10-19 10:36 AM, Neil Gould wrote: [...] You're disqualifying the "actual work" that people are doing on phones an tablets based on what empirical information??? Some people have been doing "real work" on tablets for decades, and from what I see, that trend is upward. [...] Indeed. Yesterday I talked to a woman who uses her iPad to design quilts. She can send the designs to the printer, or to any other device on her home network. She can e-mail them. She can upload them to her website, and have real-time collaboration with other people logged onto her design page. If that's not "real work" I don't know what is. BTW, more and more external drives are wi-fi. That's one reason the USB ones are being sold at low (and dropping) prices (eg, a Toshiba 2TB for $120 Canadian). I just got a Toshiba 3TB for $100 US. -- Caver1 |
#86
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/2014 03:17 PM, ...winston‫ wrote:
Ken Blake, MVP wrote: On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:54:56 +0100, mechanic wrote: On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 07:45:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote: Alas, I *do* agree with that last statement. I think Microsoft has done a very poor job of making it clear that Windows 8 has two interfaces and you can use either or both. No I think they've made it clear that you can either login to the Desktop, or to a customisable Start screen. Why is that so hard to understand? Why? Because it's not true. Look at the *millions* of Windows 8 users who use the Metro/Modern interface all the time, and don't even realize they have a choice. There are probably quite a few of those yet that same population is more than likely skewed toward a majority that don't care....they just use it and are as productive as those who are aware of having a choice. Everyone that I know that uses 8.1 for work never use the metro side. -- Caver1 |
#87
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/2014 03:33 PM, Neil wrote:
On 10/19/2014 12:31 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 10/19/14 8:36 AM, Neil Gould wrote: Keith Nuttle wrote: On 10/19/2014 7:58 AM, Neil Gould wrote: Bob Henson wrote: On 18/10/2014 8:57 PM, Neil wrote: On 10/18/2014 10:02 AM, Bob Henson wrote: On 18/10/2014 2:46 PM, Wolf K wrote: On 2014-10-18 5:07 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote: snip People who use their computers for actual work are the ones not upgrading to the newest computer release and the newest operating system. You're disqualifying the "actual work" that people are doing on phones an tablets based on what empirical information??? Some people have been doing "real work" on tablets for decades, and from what I see, that trend is upward. Don't we have to define what "actual work"/"real work" is? If what you are doing is simply posting family photos to Facebook, or something like that, it would qualify as "real work" to you, and tablets and phones are just fine. But, if the work you're doing is War and Peace Part 2, or designing the next passenger airliner, that "real work" isn't going to be done a tablet or smart phone. I guess we just have to love the "Straw Man Extremes" to support a lost cause. 8-^ I consider "actual/real work" that for which one is being compensated. Such work has been done on tablets for decades and on phones at least since the Blackberry. All four of my children have smartphones and tablets which they use constantly. When they switch to work their switch to their desktops or laptops. At work they all use desktops and not the metro side. The same for others that I know. -- Caver1 |
#88
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/2014 03:42 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 11:17 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote: On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer wrote: Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same. I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new version, and better integration. It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem before, so why is it suddenly a problem now? The difference may be in the amount of difficulty in sharing data between the two OSes. Plus what your goal is with everything. In the Apple world, if you want to enter something into the app on the computer, and have it show up on the family's iPhone, it's a piece of cake. For example, the wife is grocery shopping, and the list is on the phone and the computer. You're at home, remember a couple items that need to be added to the list. Type them in on the computer, and in a few seconds, the list on the phone is updated. Is that possible on what you have? It is in Linux. -- Caver1 |
#89
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/2014 4:47 PM, Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 03:33 PM, Neil wrote: On 10/19/2014 12:31 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 10/19/14 8:36 AM, Neil Gould wrote: Keith Nuttle wrote: On 10/19/2014 7:58 AM, Neil Gould wrote: Bob Henson wrote: On 18/10/2014 8:57 PM, Neil wrote: On 10/18/2014 10:02 AM, Bob Henson wrote: On 18/10/2014 2:46 PM, Wolf K wrote: On 2014-10-18 5:07 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote: snip People who use their computers for actual work are the ones not upgrading to the newest computer release and the newest operating system. You're disqualifying the "actual work" that people are doing on phones an tablets based on what empirical information??? Some people have been doing "real work" on tablets for decades, and from what I see, that trend is upward. Don't we have to define what "actual work"/"real work" is? If what you are doing is simply posting family photos to Facebook, or something like that, it would qualify as "real work" to you, and tablets and phones are just fine. But, if the work you're doing is War and Peace Part 2, or designing the next passenger airliner, that "real work" isn't going to be done a tablet or smart phone. I guess we just have to love the "Straw Man Extremes" to support a lost cause. 8-^ I consider "actual/real work" that for which one is being compensated. Such work has been done on tablets for decades and on phones at least since the Blackberry. All four of my children have smartphones and tablets which they use constantly. When they switch to work their switch to their desktops or laptops. At work they all use desktops and not the metro side. The same for others that I know. So... are you trying to claim that people *don't* use tablets and smart phones for business and "actual work"? If not, please tell me... what was the point of your comment? -- best regards, Neil |
#90
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/2014 11:20 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 19/10/2014 1:06 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote: That is the biggest drawback to Windows 8.1. Once you open a Metro program in in nearly impossible to close that program. YES MS brought the Upper X to close the Window, but that does not close the program. Working with a mouse exclusively the only option is to kill it in the Task Manager. If you hit the Windows Key on the key board it will get you out of most Metro programs. Doesn't ALT-F4 close them? The concept of "closed" for Metro apps is not the same as it is for Desktop apps. Like Android and iOS, Metro apps are "stopped" by the user, meaning that they don't consume CPU time and other resources, but they're still in memory until that memory is needed by some other app, and that's managed by the system, not the user. There are reasons why some people think this is a good thing, but on that matter I'm an agnostic until it creates some problem, and that will largely depend on how well "sandboxed" they are. IOW, the Metro/Modern UI is not just another instance of the desktop, so it isn't reasonable to think it should function as though it is. -- best regards, Neil |
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